#and they don't claim transmasc either

[local-moonbat]

Absolutely fucking appalled at the discourse on this site recently

[nothorses]

do you know why people say trans women and trans men cant both be targets of misogyny? I was told that saying trans men are oppressed by misogyny was bigoted because it implies trans women aren't

imo it mostly comes from a binaristic and cis-centric understanding of gender.

"Oppositional sexism" (coined by Julia Serano) is a handy term here: the idea is that men and women are inherently rigid and mutually exclusive categories of people. Anything one category is, the other cannot be, and vice versa.

Here, oppositional sexism holds that if women are harmed by misogyny, then men benefit from it; women can never benefit from it, and men can never be harmed by it.

A lot of transphobia is rooted in the ways in which trans people fundamentally defy oppositional sexism, and thus endanger the gender binary. Men are supposed to be big, and women are supposed to be small; but trans men assert that men can be small, and trans women assert that women can be big (to use one overly-simplistic example).

A lot of trans people and trans allies still adhere to oppositional sexism, but claim to do it in a "trans-friendly" way: sex can be changed, but gender is instead rigid and mutually exclusive. Or- perhaps more commonly- gender can be expressed in any way, but the ways in which gender is experienced are instead rigid and mutually exclusive.

Which is how we arrive at this insistence that trans people fall into one binary gender experience, even if they don't actually identify as a particular "binary" gender. "Trans women are women" might mean trans women can look and act any way at all, but it also means they experience womanhood in the same way that all other women do, and that experience is rigid and mutually exclusive of "man" experiences.

It's also why so many people are so eager to create new "inclusive" ways of sorting trans people into the same gender binary using increasingly contrived language: People insist on knowing the gender someone was assigned at birth so they can categorize them as AFAB or AMAB, and thus conclude what gender experience they have: man or woman. People insist on categorizing nonbinary people as either transmasc or transfem so they can conclude what gender experience they have: man or woman. People insist on categorizing trans people as either TMA or TME so they can conclude what gender experience they have: man or woman.

The idea that trans men experience misogyny only implies that trans women don't if you believe that man and woman are rigid, mutually-exclusive categories.

[hiiragi7]

Honestly, the amount of assumptions that other trans people make about trans people's bodies based on whether they're transmasc or transfem is a large part of why I don't identify with those terms currently. I don't want people to make assumptions about my body and how it functions, my birth sex, how I was socially raised, my lived experiences, or anything else based on what gender identity I currently identify with. I remember a time when the trans community felt very united on the idea that nobody ever needs to know what's in your pants, and that it's fucking weird to ask - but nowdays, with all the discourse surrounding labels, it feels like everyone is much too comfortable pressing for details about what genitals you were born with and what your original birth certificate says.

Another part of it is, as an intersex person, I feel completely excluded from these terms. Every definition, every discourse, every discussion of transfemininity and transmasculinity is completely perisex-centered. It feels like there's no place for me at all with regards to these terms, and it makes me feel like I can't really use either label, even though sometimes I wish to. Even when intersex people are brought up, it always turns into debates about how close an intersex person has to be to a binary sex to be able to appropriately claim transfemininity or transmasculinity; we are still being violently forced into perisex ideas of transness for the sake of upholding a binary.

[gamblegun]

It's funny when people claim that transmasc music is just "soft boy sad guitar strumming" or the like. Oh? Is that so? How many transmasc musical artists can you name exactly? Maybe it's actually that there's not a huge variety of our music because cis people don't want to listen to us, and queer people think we're so embarrassing and cringey, so either way it's rare any out transmasc will have a career or fan base at all.

[genderkoolaid]

another day another post claiming to give information about transness in history that literally only brings up transfeminine people. can we please stop using "trans" to mean "only transfems because i either can't be bothered to research transmascs & others or don't think it's important to point out the absence of information on transmascs & others"

[gophergal]

Behold, a silly AU I've been yapping to @cursed--alien about for... A week? Or two? Idk. Either way this is what they called Nine Mercs And A Baby, in which Medic creates a test tube baby (using his and Heavy's genetics) to develop an artificial womb then gets really attached to the resulting offspring. I'm not much of a fankid or kidfic person (kids weird me out), but this AU has really grown on me despite being a joke at first

(more details under the cut)

Before their "birth", Medic refused to acknowledge the question of what he was planning on doing with the baby if it survived. After it was born he claimed that he was only keeping it to study human growth and development first hand

Medic is extremely weird about fatherhood. He's simultaneously really anxious and distant. He knows he's not cut out to be a primary caregiver. It's just not something he's capable of, and he thinks himself too old for this nonsense. However, once he realizes that he really does have the support of his dysfunctional found family, he allows himself to learn to be a better father

The kid was raised relatively gender neutral. Ever read the book "X: a fabulous child's story"? They're not quite that neutral, but they're not really forced into gender roles or expectations. They have two first names (one feminine, one masculine), but no one in their family uses them. Most of the time they're just called the Kid, but everyone has a nickname for 'em. They don't care about pronouns all that much. (C'mon, they're my OC and I headcanon Medic as transmasc. There was no way they wouldn't be some flavor of nonbinary)

Heavy treasures his child and is so fucking protective. He's wrapped around their little finger. Though everyone helps out with their needs, he's his child's primary caregiver and no decisions are made about them without Papa Bear knowing

They're born in 1968 and spend the first four years of their life living on the base. MvM doesn't happen in this AU, so once the Gravel Wars end, Red Team goes their separate ways... At first. After a year or so they start trickling back together because nothing feels quite as right as being A Team. Kid only had about a year of their life where they didn't have a big family to rely on

It's not all sunshine and rainbows, but the only Major Issue in the family (at least for Kid) is how distant Medic is despite being their actual Legal Father. He tries, but he's afraid of smothering them or pressuring them into following in his footsteps. Had he been younger when they were born, he probably wouldn't have cared. But having the opportunity to form strong bonds has made him a softer man. Regardless, they still love each other, and Kid feels lucky to have a dad like him

[jackawful]

like my overall working theory of transphobia that has yet to steer me wrong so far is that all transphobia is misogyny & it's just the virgin/whore dichotomy repackaged.

if you really really look at how cis people treat trans women, and transmisogynist cultural narratives that anyone can engage in, trans women aren't treated like Dangerous Men like so many transphobes claim - the spectre of the Dangerous Man is used to justify treating trans women as sexually dangerous women in a way most similar to the "whore" side of the virgin/whore dichotomy. Trans women are fetishized and hypersexualized in a way that is culturally leveraged to justify violence against them.

If you look at how cis people treat trans men, however, it's much more about cloystering and "protecting" and perpetually infantilizing us. Trans men can't make our own decisions about our bodies, we must be kept sexually pure so we can reproduce and any interference with our reproductive capacity is a crime against humanity, we're condescended to specifically in a way intended to strip us of bodily autonomy. Our oppressors favor coercion over direct violence, though sexual violence especially is justified as a last resort if it keeps us In Our Place (as docile future tradwives). It's most similar to anti-abortion and anti-birth-control narratives and especially evangelical purity culture - the "virgin" side of the virgin/whore dichotomy.

This is why I also don't really consider transandrophobia (or transmisandry before it) good or accurate terminology for the oppression transmascs face - we're not targeted For Our Masculinity, imo, we're targeted for our refusal to stay in a specific bioessentialist gender box. It's a specific subtype of transphobia for sure, but it's too related to existing misogyny for me to be comfortable with terms reframing it as misandry - because transphobes don't see us as men, they see us as failed women. And they don't see transfems as Dangerous Men either - they see them sometimes as faggots, but often as failed women who can never succeed at womanhood by virtue of bioessentialist bullshit. And it's in ways roughly similar to how they see cis women who are sex workers or who have been sterilized or who use birth control or are too masculine or whatever else as failed women. It's misogyny all the way down.

[pansexual-pied-piper]

Y'know, it really pisses me off when aphobes try to justify excluding cis straight aspecs on the grounds that their experiences "aren't comparable" to those of "real" queer people, bc how would they know? They're not aspec! They don't know shit abt what being aspec is like!

Oh gee, if only there were people who were both aspec and other flavours of queer who could draw direct comparisons based on their own lived experience! Guess we'll never know what these clearly entirely hypothetical aspecs have to say about it! /s

The fact that they don't listen to us when we defend our cis straight siblings just proves how full of shit they are. If they really were only worried about comparability, they'd be seeking us out for our expertise, not ignoring us or speaking over us on our own experiences. They want us all gone, pure and simple. Cis straight aspecs are only the beginning. They're the easiest target, but the aphobes won't stop there. They'll just shift their focus to whichever flavour of aspecs they feel they can get away with excluding next. Probably either cis m-spec aspecs, with some weird justification that involves the idea that m-specs are "straight passing", or straight transmasc aspecs, with some bullshit explanation about how transmascs all pass as cis. Calling it now.

And they'll have the gall to claim it's for the good of the community while they do it.

[trans-androgyne]

Hello, if you have time in really confused on something and was reccomended messaging you

I'm fairly new to Tumblr, I've only been on here a year and a term I've been newly introduced to is transandrophobia and I'm really very confused. I'm getting a solid mix of people saying it's a thing and people saying it's not and I keep trying to look it up but it's just people arguing with each other

I'm just. Very confused. Please help

Thank you

Of course, happy to help. Transandrophobia is the system of oppression that targets trans men and transmasculine people. Most people use it to mean the intersection of transphobia and sexism that primarily affects trans men and mascs--by sexism, I mean both misogyny and antimasculinism. Examples include the "Irreversible Damage" narrative that paints us as delusional little girls too dumb to know what's good for us and our bodies (misogyny), and the way testosterone is demonized and trans men/mascs are encouraged to stay off it even by other queer and trans people (antimasculinism).

The biggest issue people take with it is that they don't think sexism affects men or that they can have any unique experiences ("trans men can't be oppressed for being men"). This is a misunderstanding of both sexism and intersectionality. If you look up sexism anywhere, just about every definition will clarify that it usually affects women but can also target men. And basic intersectionality is that all of our identities--including race, gender, transness, disability, and everything else--all interact to create a unique experience with privilege and oppression. People will claim that intersectionality exclusively means two systems of oppression (like misogyny and racism) intersecting, but that is most certainly not how I was taught it in college. None of this is to say that men are generally oppressed for their gender, it just means that trans men and mascs can and do in fact have experiences specific to them--manhood/masculinity is not the "default" experience, as there is no default human experience.

There are a couple even less valid issues people take with the term. They'll say that, unlike trans women, trans men and mascs "just don't need" a word to describe their oppression, that we're just trying to copy from "transmisogyny" and our oppression is either "just transphobia" or "just misogyny." This is a very silly argument. It is both transphobia and misogyny, interacting. When my doctors misgender me to be misogynistic towards me, that is both. That is transandrophobia. The woman who coined the term transmisogyny states that trans men and transmascs may require "additional language" to talk about our issues, so she doesn't even agree with these people. Folks will also attack the makeup of the term, saying "transandrophobia can't exist because androphobia doesn't exist." This misunderstands how words work; it's like saying "homophobia can't exist because I'm not 'afraid of things that are the same.'" Also, androphobia (the literal fear of men) does exist, but it's not really what we're talking about. Additionally, people will claim trans men and mascs are using this term to try to say that trans women oppress us. This is just blatantly false; nobody notable in the conversation has ever claimed anything close to that, and the few individuals who have said something like that are immediately shut down as terfy/bigoted.

I apologize for the length, but I hope that helped break down what the term means and why people have issues with it. I didn't really include examples for length reasons, but I would be happy to share more or answer any other questions you have. Thank you for seeking an understanding of the term.

[unboylievable]

Hi. Before I start complaining I'm gonna lay out some stuff.

- Transmisogyny is real and deadly. Hypervisibility isn't a privilege. Transfems and discussions of transmisogyny and sharing resources are not responsible for transmasc oppression. Any claims to the contrary or general transmisogyny will get you blocked.

- 'Androphobia' doesn't exist, no, but the specific intersection of misogyny and transphobia experienced by transmascs is. Having language to describe our experiences is not transmisogynist as it does not deny the existence of transmisogyny and does not imply that misandry or androphobia exists outside of terf and radfem spaces. I will generally be using the term 'anti-transmasculinity' to this end as to avoid confusion but I may still rb and reply to posts that use the word 'transandrophobia'.

- No gender in the trans community has meaningful structural power over any other gender. Incidentally benefitting from male privilege is not the same as being an oppressor group, much like how binary trans people may benefit from binary privilege, but are not inherently oppressors to nonbinary trans people.

- You do not know other people's experiences in oppression better than they do. Do not tell people that what they experience isn't real, or isn't that bad, or isn't actually gendered violence or gendered discrimination.

- TMA/TME is useful in discussions about transmisogyny, not as a general dichotomy of people. If you mean afab or transmasc, please just say afab or transmasc.

- Men and women are not opposites. Transmascs and transfems are not opposites. TMA and TME are not opposites. Don't let yourself be sucked in by cultural feminism and oppositional sexism. We have more in common than not.

- Trans men and transmascs are oppressed, underrepresented, isolated, bullied and harassed, and often overlooked. It sucks ass out here. This is not, and will never be an excuse to adopt toxic masculinity or inflict that anger on anyone else.

- Being cringe is not proof that transmascs are bad, you’re just enacting ace discourse type bullshit on the Cringe Queers Du Jour.

- I know that the kinds of transmisogynist transmascs described by transfems are not strawman. They exist and they're horrible people. I do not speak for them, they do not speak for me, and I only ask that you not let the individual assholes define all of us.

- I'm just one guy complaining about transmasc issues, I don't speak for the community. Don't act like my complaining is indicative of how all transmascs think.

- If I say something shitty or wrong, please let me know. I'm receptive to feedback and want to be the best ally I can to my trans brothers, my trans sisters, and my trans siblings.

- FOR THE LOVE OF GOD INCLUDE INTERSEX PEOPLE IN YOUR DISCUSSIONS AND ACTIVISM

Suggested reading:

[syekick-powers]

honestly like. the flaws in trying to universalize gender socialization aside, i think the reason why t/e/rf/s trying to claim that there are some kind of Universal Female Socialization or Universal Female Experience pisses me off so bad is like. the reason why i didn't experience a lot of the Typical Female Experiences is because i didn't fit into the standard expectations for how girls should dress, look, and behave, so as a result i was treated differently by my peers. and it feels to me that the kind of standards of femininity that te/r/fs and r/a/df/e/ms try to enforce on others match the same kinds of standards other kids put on me that i failed to match up to.

so when i see them saying shit like "all girls/women experience X!" it pisses me off real bad because i didn't experience that shit BECAUSE of the standards of femininity people enforced on me that i failed to live up to. and i know that they have standards of female experience that i just don't match. to name a few: i've never been stalked by a man. i've never been catcalled or continually hit on by men who wouldn't take no for an answer. ive never felt threatened by unfamiliar men on the streets at night. the only person who ever coerced me into sex i didn't want was a cis woman who pressured me into topping her. any expression of femininity i DID engage with was seen as a cheap, faulty imitation of real femininity that made me unworthy of anything but disdain and insults. i was constantly degendered and desexualized and treated as unworthy of sexual or romantic attention due to the way i looked (fat and gnc) and acted (neurodivergent and unapologetic about it).

so when i hear t/er/f/s crowing about how trans men and mascs are just gnc women and that they'd "love" to "help" us express masculine womanhood, i think about how so many people saw my masculinity when i was perceived as a woman and treated me as a socially untouchable freak who was unworthy of being granted the status of womanhood. like. get fucking real. you don't actually accept people afab who are gnc, you just want to say anything you possibly can to convince trans men, transmascs, and any other nonbinary/abinary people assigned female who want to or are actively transitioning in a masculine direction to either detransition or never attempt transition in the first place. you don't support female masculinity, you just want to use the Idea of it to lure us into transphobic abuse and convert us into "proper women". fuck all the way off with that shit.

[digital-delusionz]

As a transmasc person I rlly hate when ppl make the claim that "neo pronouns and xenogenders bring the trans movement down " or that "cis ppl won't take us seriously with those xenogenders/neo pronouns"

Transphobes don't care if a trans person uses neos/Xenos or not they will be transphobic either way bc they hate trans ppl. There's no need to pander to cis ppl this much.

In fact I'd argue that pandering to cis people that much is what ACTUALLY beings the movement down because if you're that scared of experimenting with gender and looking beyond the gender binary that will in the end just further let cis ppl spread their stereotypical gender standards/roles

If u struggle to understand xenos and neos that's ok it can definitely seem odd to most. And I also understand if u struggle with using neo pronouns. but don't be so hostile towards a innocent group

Remember not everyone views gender the same and that everyone's experience with gender is different

[transvarmint]

I saw the post you were talking about regarding stuff you've also gone through despite being "TME" and I DM'd that person to be like "hey I don't think I have the knowledge to speak on this and it would be triggering for me to look into, would you mind if I reblogged it asking for my transmasc followers to chime in? they're very nice, it won't turn into dogpiling" and the response was "thanks for asking but this is just a post for transmascs to listen so asking for their commentary is not wanted" and I was going to say "I'll respect your wishes but it feels kinna weird to argue a point like this and then authoritatively declare the debate over with and that people you don't think experience these things aren't allowed to offer evidence to the contrary" but halfway through typing that she was like "oh I thought I had you blocked" and blocked me so lol. lmao even.

Oh, wow. We were almost going to reblog the post with commentary, but we had kind of gathered she wasn't willing to have an open discussion about it. I'm sorry that she wasn't even willing to engage with you either. That's so incredibly dismissive.

And yeah, it's kinda whack that people will make sweeping claims and then just decide that no one is allowed to chime in. She is making statements about our experiences and then telling us we can't disagree with her. It's ridiculous

[genderkoolaid]

I hate how people act like transmascs don't have to fight to be included in sports, like people constantly claim that we are either on steroids or that "biological males would crush us anyways", but nobody sees that. We're fucking invisible and I hate it.

Oh god yeah. I feel like we need to bring more awareness to how transphobes will straight up say that transmascs on T are the equivalent of cis men being on performance enhancing steroids. Trans men are weak females who would get crushed the minute they compete with a cis man, but also our HRT gives us too much of an advantage to compete with cis men. Because its never been about physical advantage, its about punishing trans people.

Although, on a more positive note, y'all should read about Patricio Manuel, a trans man boxer who has won against all three of the cis men he's fought professionally. As you can imagine, transphobes are very distressed by this.

[torchvic]

fuck this *flicks my little magic wand* your obey me cast is all transgender. here are my personal headcanons for that (putting this under a read more because this is A LOT)

the brothers r first because i was thinking abt this for one billion hours:

asmo is genderfluid and i think he'd use she/he pronouns. (we could also argue bigender asmo because that'd be cool also)

he/they transmasc mammon. literally they/them'd in a call and i saw a transmasc mammon headcanon and i think abt it all the time now.

it's been discussed here before but levi is nonbinary transfem. she uses they/she pronouns and i will die on this hill. also uses some type of neopronouns. gamer girlfailure /j (might be femcel. idk it might be the amount of times they use "normie") (i'm in love with her)

belphie is too tired to give a shit about gender. he says "no" if asked. they/it/he maybe. probably uses star/starself neos too cuz that stuff rocks (agender belphie anyone???)

beel uses any pronouns and doesn't rly label his gender i don't think. never really gave it much thought probably but i don't think he cares. love them lots. :3

i don't think satan really cares about gender either BUT i think he could identify with catgender (he/cat pronouns (maybe more) he'd use cat-centric neopronouns this has to be canon)

nonbinary lucifer is canon on my SOUL. they use they/she/he pronouns because they can and will.

then we got the silly goober dateables + small child luke:

diavolo got that demiboy swag and once he discovers neopronouns it's gonna be awesome. he/they/prince pronouns (or any other royal-centric ones)

barbatos is agender. bro is a time master lord guy they do NOT give a shit. they/them and maybe it/its depending on the day

solomon uses them all. every single pronoun. they've lived so fucking long that they just said "fuck it" or something and claimed all of them. he made the genderfluid in his cauldron and promptly drank it. uses neos too but there's a lot that fit here. maybe it's all of them too. i do think xe/xem (and other variations) are used though because i said so

i don't know if angels have a concept of gender or not. they/he simeon though something about him is nonbinary af luv u simeon

i'm not sure for luke because he's like... 10... but again idk if angels really have the gender concept at all (probably not they're supernatural beings. they all are actually). might be a mainly he/him user but doesn't mind it when other pronouns are used. idk the gender because hes a child but maybe he'll figure it out later in life cuz rn he's worried about baking really good treats for michael

last but not least the characters they refuse to add to the system (please im in love with thirteen please PLEASE):

mephisto got that bigender swag idk something about them screams it. i do think they use they/he pronouns though (maybe she/her also, but it depends on the day lawl)

thirteen is transfem i feel it in my bones. she/it/they pronouns. i love her so much. it's my favorite character ever look everyone. obey me devs add thirteen to the intimacy system NOW PLEASE.

raphael is agender bro does not care they will rain their spears on you and then eat solomon's cooking right after to make you physically ill (/lh). uses they/xe :)

thank you for coming to my ted talk and im sorry for the intense rambling <:)

[velvetvexations]

the thing about the way i see people talk about this stuff is that, like, I was on furaffinity back in the mid 2000s and I would see people talk about "femboys" and refer to, you know, cis guys with skirts and thigh highs and whatever. and then in 2024 i see a post get reblogged onto my dash on how femboys are actually just copying "trans girl culture" (by which they mean the online uwu nyaa set, which I don't have a problem with but it's sure as hell not the entire thing) and it's like. come on.

It's so creepy to me, as a transfem. I know I've said it multiple times but it's so creepy and weird to see people doing this and saying these things. I do not like this extreme hyper victimization complex so many transfems either have or is ascribed to us by non-transfems. It should not be possible to be hyperbolic about what trans women go through and yet Tumblr has somehow found a way. It's so infuriating. I feel so alienated from what's supposed to be my community because they claim they're trying to help me because the mean transmascs are trying to steal our vocabulary and brainwash us into TERFism or some other completely fucking braindead shit. Just the level of abuse that gets thrown at transmascs makes me want to throw up sometimes.