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ogsherlockholmes · 5 days ago

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This is incredibly interesting and insightful, and I would like to add a few comments, as someone else who can't help but feel slightly disappointed by certain adaptations.

Generally, I (surprisingly) find older Holmes adaptations, such as Rathbone/Bruce, somehow more faithful to the canon, even though there are clear problems with characterisations (I mention Bruce, despite finding his version of Watson very far removed from the canon). On the whole, these Holmeses are more connected to the 'oddness' which is integral to Holmes: he is never written to be a smooth, suave, debonair seducer, he's noted to be quite unusual and struggles to follow social cues, but not to the point of extreme rudeness. In fact, his peculiarity makes him somewhat charming. So, yes, Peter Cushing's Holmes could be quite harsh at times, but he was still human (it's been a while since I've watched Cushing adaptation's, so correct me if I'm wrong) and wasn't presented as 'eye candy'.

Of course, I can hardly forget Jeremy Brett's Holmes, and will never forgo an opportunity to gush over him and his commitment to accuracy. Personally, I believe that the Brett/Hardwicke/Burke adaptation is the most accurate.

Then we move to the 2000s, and OP is entirely correct on the focus shift to Irene Adler, a character who was only in one story and not mentioned much afterwards. That's not to say she wasn't important, she certainly was, but not in being a sort of sexual awakening as many adaptations make her out to be.

Modern Holmeses are, yes, quite different from the canon, that goes without saying. Part of me argues that, perhaps this is to match the effect of Holmes' character on a Victorian audience with a modern day audience. Meaning, certain features of his character which might not be a big deal now might have been a massive focus when originally written. To use an example entirely different from this, if a 19th century author might want to convey that a character was 'indecent' they might mention a 'reveal' of an ankle or even a thigh, maybe a hairstyle not done as neat as others (God forbid, a woman might have her hair down in the presence of a man). These days, if an author wanted their character to be a bit slutty, there will be a reveal of more than just a thigh... So, these two separate audiences will still have the same emotion conveyed upon them. Going back to Holmes, what was considered rude in the Victorian era isn't as rude these days (or the social etiquette has differed all round), so modern Holmeses need to be ruder than the canon, so we still have that effect.

But here, I disagree with myself, because even in the Victorian era, Holmes was never as rude as House, for example. Or, in the case of RDJ, Holmes was never described to be a slob; his rooms were untidy, yes, but his appearance mattered to him and he made sure to look after himself (in this case, I have to argue that the likes of Cumberbatch with his expensive hair products and Burberry coat are more akin to the canon).

Now that I have mentioned BBCSherlock, I have to admit that I do really enjoy this show still, despite holding back screams at certain moments (most moments). Honestly, I think Watson is mischaracterised just as often in all adaptations, both modern and 20th century, but in terms of the BBC version, I think this Holmes is the closest to canon. Arguments of queerbait aside, (yes, I maintain that they were queerbaiting, but enough has been said about that) I think Cumberbatch!Holmes is more applicable for the argument that his characterisation was trying to have the same effect on the audience as the canon, rather than matching the canon. Yes, rude, but there were just as many moments of genuine human kindness, love even, and he had big emotions, just like the canon. (He did call himself a sociopath but I maintain to this day that was him trying to find a word for himself and being very incorrect, but enough about BBCSherlock.)

I have never liked Enola Holmes (no hate to the creators or people involved); not because I thought the movie was bad, I just wonder why they bothered to relate it to Sherlock Holmes if it was going to be so far removed. I understand that it was an adaptation of a children's book series, so I won't comment on the plot, but I specifically remember watching the movie and wondering what the point of Cavill's Holmes was. It wasn't that he was 'too' good-looking, but he was, dare I say, useless. I'll admit, I can't remember the story entirely, but I was underwhelmed by Holmes' intelligence. No, he needn't be a superhuman, but being clever is a pretty difficult point to miss from Holmes' character.

All this being said (and, yes, I could go on and on about my opinions on all the adaptations I've consumed), I'm going to offer a little bit of mercy to Holmes adapters. As much as I would want a perfect near enough word for word adaptation of the canon (with Johnlock, of course) I understand that, in the modern day, people always want something new. It must be difficult to remain faithful to a story which has been told over and over without boring the audience. Therefore, there's an action movie Holmes made when superhero movies were popular; a TV series whose budget substantially increased and had a wider audience then intended, so had more convoluted storylines which slowly became less connected to the canon; and a Holmes which was more appeasable to a younger crowd, specifically targeted at younger girls and giving them a new character to look up to (even though I dislike it, I recognise that Enola Holmes was intended to be a role-model, and I do respect that).

Take Shakespeare for example: so many people are adaptating his works into so many different versions; i.e, Romeo and Juliet in modern-day America with guns and ecstasy; The Merchant of Venice set during WW2; The Taming of the Shrew with swapped genders; and so on. Writers constantly want to excite/confuse/intrigue the audience in ways which haven't been done, and after many years and many adaptations, the list begins to run out.

Still, I do feel disappointed by what Holmes has become. OP's original statement, 'Sherlock Holmes became an adaptation of an adaptation' is so true, and it does come to a point where it's not an adaptation but an inspiration. In my opinion, I'd argue that House MD is more inspired by Holmes then adapting the canon, since there aren't really many exact plot points included, aside from (spoilers!!) a faked death, drug usage and homoerotic longing. I seriously don't think there's a problem with that, we can't reinvent the wheel, but it would be nice if creators would recognise that the Holmes and Watson they are presenting are not the real Holmes and Watson.

On that note, Fawx&Stallion is a Holmes adaptation worthy of being mentioned- those creators understand Holmes, and that is clear to see.

Sherlock Holmes became an adaptation of an adaptation.

By watching several adaptations, it is possible to see how Holmes' personality begins to change over time, and how some adaptations are very similar to each other, not because they are based on the same book, but because they are based on each other instead of being based on the canon.

For example, the stereotype that Holmes is cold and emotionless, even though in the book Watson indeed says that Holmes is "a machine", Watson still describes him as sensitive, gentle, Holmes compassionate towards the clients who need it most. In addition to the explicit affection he has for Watson and how he respects Watson's feelings.

In older adaptations, Holmes has a personality and attitudes that are more faithful to the books, until the 2000s, Holmes' personality was consistent with the canon.

From the 2000s onwards, the adaptations became increasingly distant from the canon and began to be based on existing versions of the character instead of the canon, and thus a whole new perception of the character was created that did NOT match AT ALL with his original counterpart.

(very long post)

And it's not just Holmes' personality that is affected, but his dynamic with Watson and the history and personality of the other characters ends up being affected. For example, Irene Adler.

Although the interpretation of Irene as Holmes' romantic partner has existed for decades, since the 19th century, and even though she appeared in ONE short story, and was the only woman to beat the great detective, her relevance in having been a woman at that time and having been smarter than Holmes was transformed and reduced to her being Holmes' love interest, BUT even then, there isn't THAT many adaptations where Irene is portrayed this way how people think

First, there is Alice Faulkner, Holmes' romantic partner created by William Gillette, an original character inspired by Irene Adler, but very different from Irene. Holmes helps her and falls in love with her, kinda cute. (almost everyone knows) William Gillette is also responsible for the image of Holmes with the big pipe and the famous phrase never said by the canon Holmes "Elementary, my dear Watson". This is where the first influence on the other adaptations begins.

William Gillette's Holmes inspired the adaptations by Clive Brook and John Barrymore. Brook's version Holmes has a wife like Alice, and Barrymore's version is an adaptation of Gillette's film.

‼️This is all referring specifically to visual media such as movies and tv shows.

From decades before until the 1950s (not included), there is no Irene Adler. Of the more than 30 adaptations, four of them have an original female character as a romantic partner to Holmes. From the 50s to the 80s (not included), there are 30 other film and television adaptations. Where Irene only appears in 1976 in “Sherlock Holmes In New York” with Roger Moore as Holmes, and I believe that this is perhaps the FIRST version where Irene and Holmes really have a romance.

In this movie, half of the time, it is shown how Holmes loves Irene Adler and misses her, until a case ends up taking him to New York, to meet the woman he loves so much, BUT in the end, after he discovers that he has a son with Irene, he simply decides that he cannot stay with her and their son, because he has a whole life in London and cannot leave everything like that. Father of the year.

Before that, of course, there is “The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes” in 1970 by Billy Wilder, where he has the character of Gabrielle, which may have been the starting point for Irene Adler's transformation.

There were two adaptations in the 1970s where a man ends up in a type of psychosis that makes him believe he is Sherlock Holmes and a doctor named, by coincidence of course, Watson, and she is the one who helps him. In the first film, “They Might Be Giants,” Holmes and Dr. Watson fall in love.

At this time, it has the movie “The Seven Per-Cent Solution,” where Freud helps Holmes overcome his “aversion to women” and at the end of the movie, Holmes meets a potential female love interest.

Of all the 33 films from this period [50s-80s], there is ONE movie where Holmes is implicitly homosexual, ONE movie where H&W fall in love, ONE movie where Holmes has an original female romantic partner and ONE movie where Holmes and Irene Adler were a couple.

Irene only appears then in the “Soviet Holmes” series from (1979), where although it seems that Holmes may have feelings for her, she is not a love interest.

From the 80s to the 2000s (not included), of the almost 40 film and television adaptations, Irene Adler only appears THREE TIMES.

In 1984 in the film with Peter Cushing “The Mask of Death”, where Holmes seems grumpy with the mere presence of Irene and complains about how he lost to a woman. In the same year also Irene appears in “Granada Holmes” which is probably the most faithful adaptation of the tale of the Scandal in Bohemia.

Irene only appears AGAIN in 1991 in “The Leading Lady” with Christopher Lee, where Irene has no self-respect whatsoever and has only one mission in this movie, which is to marry Holmes. She literally says that she DOESN’T CARE IF HOLMES DOESN’T LOVE HER, she wants to marry him and ends baby trapping him.

In 1994, there was the pilot episode of the series that would be called “Baker Street: Sherlock Holmes Returns”, which is a remake of the 1987 pilot episode “The Return of Sherlock Holmes”. In the first version, Holmes wakes up from cryogenics and meets Watson’s granddaughter, Jane, and from her, he learns that it is okay to be gay in the 80s. In the second version, Holmes is found by a doctor named Winslow who falls in love with him, but Holmes shows no interest in her.

In the late 90s, there is “Shirley Holmes”, who is Holmes' great-great-granddaughter-niece (?), her father is a Holmes and her mother is a doctor named Joanne. There is also “My Dearly Beloved Detective” where H&W kiss, the movie is mainly about love.

From this period, of the three times that Irene appears, only once she is a love interest and other THREE adaptations that put H&W in a romantic position.

So until the 2000s, of the more than one hundred adaptations, Irene is Holmes' love interest ONLY TWICE.

Of about 61 film and series adaptations produced since the 2000s till this day, EIGHT adaptations have Irene Adler as Holmes' romantic partner and another EIGHT adaptations where Holmes has other originals female characters as romantic partners.

And hust because I'm a math teacher:

It's worth noting that the number of adaptations (movies and tv shows) in 25 years is almost equivalent to the number of adaptations (movies and tv shows) in ONE CENTURY.

From the first sample of adaptations (movies and tv shows) from the period 1900-1999, there were 104 adaptations.

Irene as a romantic partner: 2 (± 2%)

Original Female Character: 4 (± 3.8%)

H&W in a romantic situation (corresponding or not, explicit or not): 4 (± 3.8%)

From the second sample of adaptations (movies and tv shows) from the period 2000-2025, there were 61 adaptations.

Irene as a romantic partner: 8 (± 13%)

Original Female Character: 8 (± 13%)

H&W in a romantic situation (corresponding or not, explicit or not): 7 (± 11.5%)

Irene Adler as love interest from the 2000s onwards:

“The Royal Scandal” with Matt Frewer, their relationship is implicit, this movie sucks, but other Frewer movies are good, as is Clive Merrison, Frewer is one of the only actors who has a voice that most closely matches the description of Holmes' voice in the canon. Also in the television film “Sherlock Holmes and the Baker Street Irregulars”, where Irene spends most of the movie disguised as a man, because of course that the ONLY WOMAN Holmes could fall in love with, dresses as a man. And then we have the Robert Downey Jr. films where despite explicitly showing the romantic relationship between Holmes and Irene at the same time it implicitly shows the romantic feelings between Holmes and Watson. And then we have “Elementary” (2012-2019), “Шерлок Холмс” (2013), “Sherlock Gnomes” (2018) and the most recent “CBS Watson” (Holmes is dead but they still made sure to let us know that Irene and Holmes had an affair.)

So, it was here, in the 2000s that the adaptations really began to change and became adaptations of each other. Holmes lost his personality and became another character. The canon stories were replaced by “fanfics” of other adaptations. (Irene Adler case)

I consider that three adaptations are mainly responsible for the CURRENT image of Sherlock Holmes, and that it is from these three adaptations that the image that we have (in the contemporary era) of Sherlock Holmes was perpetuated and is the basis for the adaptations produced more recently.

The first is House M.D. (2004-2012). Although the general public does not know that it is based on Sherlock Holmes, House influenced other adaptations, especially the personality that Holmes has today. The cliché of the super-intelligent, cold, calculating, emotionless male character begins here. Even though House is not exactly that trope. The image of Holmes being insensitive to clients/patients, his arrogance and being an ASSHOLE starts in House. Including the way he treats or mistreats Watson/Wilson.

The second adaptation is the Robert Downey Jr. films as Holmes (2009-2011). He turns Holmes into an action hero, which Holmes is not, his personality does not match the canon at all (in these movies, this is not a problem). But the main influence of RDJ Holmes is Holmes as an action hero, and being SLOPPY. He dresses badly and does not keep a clean appearance. It looks like he has not showered in months. I know he STINKS.

And then we have the third adaptation, which is where the adaptations of other adaptations begin: BBC Sherlock (2010-2017). BBC Sherlock could almost be an adaptation of “The Private of Sherlock Holmes” considering the amount of similarities and references to Billy Wilder's film and the number of times Moffat and Gatiss said that this was their favorite film and INSPIRATION. BBC Sherlock is set in the modern era as Basil Rathbone's film series was then, it also makes references to the 1965 BBC series with a background appearance by Douglas Wilmer, they made reference to “Granada Holmes” in “The Abominable Bride”. And considering that RDJ Holmes is (I believe) the FIRST adaptation that decided to have Irene Adler working for Moriarty, it can be considered that Irene Adler from BBCSH, besides being an adaptation of Gabrielle from “Private Life of Sherlock Holmes”, is also inspired by Irene from the movie.

Still, controversy, but BBC Sherlock also suffers from the influence of House, mainly in Sherlock’s PERSONALITY. He has a personality quite similar to House’s.

So we have BBC Sherlock that is inspired by other adaptations and other adaptations that are inspired by BBC Sherlock. They are adaptations based on others adaptations, where the original Holmes gets lost and it is no longer possible to recognize him.

House influenced BBC Sherlock, Elementary and CBS Watson. Although Elementary suffered from the obvious comparisons to BBC Sherlock, it clearly follows a House approach style, including the opening of the show is inspired by the 1965 BBC series. And even with the influences of other adaptations, Elementary managed to maintain a personality more in keeping with Holmes, despite the sexual appeal that Elementary Holmes has (I believe it's House's fault). This Holmes has character development and takes a more serious approach to being neurodivergent and queer, and to his addiction. Unlike both House and BBCSH, which do not fully address Holmes' autistic, or his sexuality, and in the case of BBCSH at no point does it seriously address Sherlock's addiction problem.

And again, possibly influenced by Irene from the Warner Bros. films, we have an Irene Adler who works with Moriarty, and spoiler alert, not only does she work with Moriarty but is actually Moriarty herself. In addition to having a romantic involvement with Holmes, and Moriarty (her own counterpart) being an obstacle in their relationship (as in the film).

CBS Watson series has a big problem, being from the same producers as Elementary, even though Elementary managed to maintain consistency and a certain fidelity to Holmes' personality, CBS Watson ends up having almost no personality, being similar to House, and with a Watson that seems trying to be Holmes at all times. In a way, CBS Watson is an adaptation of another adaptation: House, which is inspired by Sherlock Holmes.

RDJ Holmes has influenced two Russian adaptations, “Sherlock Holmes” from 2013, where despite expectations that it was inspired by the Soviet series from 1979, the new Russian Holmes is very similar to the ways of RDJ Holmes, sloppy and careless. The series plot is that Watson narrates the adventures of Sherlock Holmes, but the Holmes he writes about is not the same as the real Holmes he lives with. Even though in this context, fidelity to the canon somehow does not need to exist. It still shows the influence of RDJ's films. And again, Irene Adler here is Holmes' romantic partner.

As for the NEW Russian series “Sherlock in Russia” (2020), despite its originality and very well produced, we have an almost sloppy Holmes, long hair and a goatee, that yes, is RDJ's fault.

Being the most influential of the post-2000s adaptations, BBC Sherlock influenced several other adaptations, such as: “Miss Sherlock” (2018) which is not only inspired by BBC Sherlock, but clearly an adaptation of BBC Sherlock in a modern Tokyo setting where Sherlock and John are women. (An adaptation of another adaptation that was inspired by other adaptations). “Sherlock Untold Stories” (2019-2022) which is also heavily inspired by BBC Sherlock visually, but unlike Miss Sherlock it manages to be more original.

Moriarty the Patriot's Sherlock. Both the manga and the anime are, in my opinion, the best adaptation of Sherlock Holmes, both in the original plot and in how they adapted Moriarty and the canon to the context of the manga universe. However, Sherlock is clearly inspired by BBCSH's Sherlock. Some parts of the manga are also very similar to the events of BBC Sherlock.

And the most controversial one: Sherlock and Co. And I say this not as if they deliberately decided this. It's undeniable the impact that BBC Sherlock had on the general public's perception of WHO SHERLOCK HOLMES IS. Considering that the producer himself said that they had three audiences that they had to balance when making this adaptation, one of them being the "Johnlocker Community". Evidencing the HUGE impact that BBC Sherlock has even on the general Sherlock Holmes fandom, and yet, the producer said that he didn't know about queerbaiting when the allegations started that SH&Co. could be queerbaiting, remembering that no adaptation is obligated to make H&W a couple. This fact happened precisely because of the public's perception of how SH&Co. is similar to BBCSH and not just because it is set in the modern era. Observing the fandom, especially in the beginning, it was perceptive that SH&Co. was being treated as an extension of BBC Sherlock. So by EXTERNAL CONSEQUENCES, I will consider that SH&Co. Whether willingly or not, he suffers from the direct influence of BBCSH (and its fandom).

And then there's the Netflix problem. I haven't read the Enola books (yet), and I have no idea how Holmes is adapted in her books. But Henry Cavill Holmes is a consequence of BBCSH and RDJ. It's as if they had a son, but he clearly pulled Sherlock's hair more (BBCSH).

And Irregulars, only Netflix know where they got their inspiration from to do that. And Holmes is sloppy again, it's RDJ's fault. And taking inspiration from Sherlock in New York, Netflix's Holmes also abandons his daughter even though he says he loves the child's mother more than anything. Eleven worse, Irregulars Holmes neglects his daughter for FIFTEEN YEARS, but her mother is the love of his life and could let the world end if they could be together. And for some reason Watson loves that jerk.

(also is like benedict and jonny lee miller had a child)

And the light at the end of the tunnel came, unexpectedly, from the CW. Finally an adaptation that is not based on another adaptation, that despite the original approach, it is still noticeable that it is in fact based on the canon and does not suffer from the influence of other adaptations.

This is based on a twitter discussion, but mostly on a comment from an oomf.

English is not my first language, I am smarter in Brazilian Portuguese

#i apologise for hacking op's post #but it's a really interesting analysis and i agree with it entirely #sherlock holmes #john watson #acd #acd holmes #acd canon #wasn't supposed to be this long either

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superectojazzmage · 10 months ago

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Just back from Alien Romulus and hoooo boy oh boy. Review/analysis.

Easily the best Alien movie since the first two, which isn't saying much, yeah, but it is legit a really cool and well-made movie, competing with Late Night With The Devil, Longlegs, and Cuckoo for title of my favorite horror movie this year.

In a lot of ways it's about harvesting the few good ideas from the post-2 movies that were squandered and doing them right, plus getting the series back to it's healthier roots, kinda the movie equivalent of someone doing physical therapy to get back in the saddle after an injury. This means it's not quite brand new ground like some may hope for and I've heard some people feel it gets a little derivative at points because of it. I can kinda agree and certainly understand that criticism, but I feel it does what it's aiming for really well and sets things up for future works to go in even crazier directions. Furthermore, it takes a lot of time to try and weld together the disparate post-2 movies in a way that brings the series back to a little coherency.

The atmosphere is really intense and cool, swinging between lovecraftian dread and build-up and high-energy chaos. The aesthetics and special effects are gorgeous, taking full advantage of the progress that technology has made since 2 plus really digging in to the used cassette future vibe of the older films. The characters are likable and actually intelligent (or at least understandable) in behavior like in the first two movies, so you care about what's happening to them instead of just waiting for them to get munched. The action and kills were really cool and creative, the cinematography in general was off-kilter in an awesome way - there's a definite attempt to make the movie feel claustrophobic and intimate. Fede Alvarez did a fantastic job in general, I'd love to see him do more with the series.

It REALLY cranks up the series' psychosexual, freudian, and sexual assault subtext, arguably to a point where it's just plain text. So if you're sensitive to stuff like that or if this is your first go at Alien, be warned for that.

More specific notes go under the header for spoilers. Highly recommend you go in as blind as you can.

Andy and Rain were wonderful leads, their dynamic was fantastic and Calie Spaeny and David Jonsson both turned in great performances. I direly hope they join the first two films' casts as "major" characters for the series going forward.

The effects to make Daniel Betts look like Ian Holms were quite possibly the one and only time the special effects failed. It looks very wonky, which is sad because Betts does a really good job copying Holms' mannerisms for Ash while still making Rook feel like a distinct character.

In addition to the usual themes of sexual unease, genetics, and parenthood, this movie adds in some really interesting themes of familial legacy, the rise of new generations, foundations, etc.. Andy and Rain are like Romulus and Remus of myth, orphaned and left to fend for themselves but growing into founders of a new age - both in-story with their carrying the XX121 substance and evidence of Weyland-Yutani's misdeeds to Yvaga and out-of-story with them being the protagonists of a new era for Alien. Likewise, the Offspring is the first example of an entirely new species, neither human nor alien but taking from the lineages of both through Kay and Big Chap, a Romulus-like founder of it's breed that will later bear fruit in Resurrection with the Ripley clone and Newborn.

I'm really not kidding when I say above that the psychosexual undercurrents are taken to the extreme here. This movie basically sees the ways the original film subtly pin-pricked at those themes, says "fuck that", and deliberately rubs it in your face in a way designed to make sure you can't ignore it. It wants you to be grossed out and to squirm in your chair and it knows exactly how to make it happen.

Alvarez noted in the lead-up to release that he took a lot of influence from Isolation and you can definitely see that in how he depicts the Xenomorphs and the general aura of the film. He further described it as a kind of halfway point between the first and second movies and you can also see that; it has the Lovecraft-style tension and horror of the first, balanced with the energy and action of the second, and it does a really good job finding a middle ground between Ridley Scott and James Cameron's styles while also doing it's own dance.

I mentioned way back at the start how the movie basically harvests the good ideas from 3, Resurrection, Prometheus, and Covenant and gives them the room they deserve while dumping the bad. It does that in both terms of themes/style and continuity/lore. Concepts that those movies bungled like xeno-human hybridism, the black goo, genetic engineering as a focus, and so on are done here more creatively and competently. Themes that those films tried and failed to tackle are handled with significantly more grace. It has the atmosphere and characterization of 3 but none of it's baggage and needlessly depressive tone. It has the body horror and weirdness of Resurrection without taking it to the zany, embarrassing areas that movie went. The effects and creativity of Prometheus and Covenant without any of their awful writing and clumsy messages. Alvarez takes on kind of an Al Ewing-esque "repairman" writing style here.

The Xenomorphs are absolutely deranged in behavior compared to most portrayals, attacking like either cruel sadists or raging chimps and rarely bothering to take hosts. I'm not sure if such a reading was intended, but I got the vibe that the idea is Xenos raised without a queen or hive grow to be basically sociopathic like how real world predatory animals grown without parental figures become feral and dysfunctional. Which would also explain a lot about how the Xeno in the original movie, Big Chap, acts there.

The Offspring's design is fucking wicked and I love it.

One of my few major criticisms is that Big Chap died off-screen instead of getting more to do. What was the point of having him be alive at the start if he wasn't gonna be used beyond a backstory point to set up the main story?

All in all, a very impressive effort and a great return to form for the series that I recommend highly.

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raven-at-the-writing-desk · 4 months ago

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riddle and how he views his mother

Consider this a part 2 to this analysis! A while ago, I was asked "Why doesn't Riddle resent his mother?", which is the question that the original analysis answers.

Recently, Riddle's Night Sky's Chiffon vignettes were released into the world, and it contains a lot of interesting details that expand on how Riddle views his mother. I wanted to commentate on this new information and how it supports what I said in the original post.

The topic of mothers comes up in these vignettes. Deuce, who was talking about his own mom, quickly realizes that it's awkward to mention parents in front of Riddle, so he apologizes. To his surprise, Riddle is super chill about it and tells Deuce he doesn't really mind, so be at ease. And then Riddle states it outright, clear as day: "I'm grateful to my mother."

Deuce follows up with a comment to the effect of, "It looks like moms are strong in every family", to which Riddle actually agrees.

Riddle credits his mom for his ability to do many things in the present. For example, he took gymnastics classes so he was able to pull off the ballet in this event (one of the Princess in the Tower's required activities). He also learned social dancing, which comes in handy for formal events such as Ghost Marriage and Glorious Masquerade. Most notably, Riddle excels in academics--he is noted as being top of this grade multiple times, has prevented any students in Heartslabyul from dropping out, and is able to memorize 3 magic engineering/coding textbooks in only just a few minutes + helps to keep Malleus at bay in a recent main story update--something which no one else would be able to achieve. He's also able to cast powerful spells in quick succession as the result of his magical training from a young age. It can be argued, then, that despite Mrs. Rosehearts' methods, she did ultimately instill many useful skills in Riddle to set him up for success as a mage. He recognizes the value in that, and acknowledges her for it. There is always a part of Riddle that thinks he is a "better" person today because of his mother's discipline, even if he is just now starting to question her methodology.

He is disciplined and capable because of his upbringing--this cannot be denied. And Riddle can't find it in himself to resent his mother because of that. This woman raised him and taught him all these things because she genuinely believed this was what was "best" for him. How can he hate her for that? For just doing what she thought was her "best"?

I also want to point out how Riddle and his mother are shown to be "one and the same" in these vignettes. Later on, Riddle expresses that he wants to send out a mass email commanding all the Heartslabyul students to prepare at least 10 lanterns each to release in the night, or else there will be punishment awaiting them. He worries that the mobs won't be motivated to help without the threat of a punishment looming over them. Sure enough, when Trey and Cater pass on Riddle's order, the mobs complain and talk about how much nicer it is around Heartslabyul without the dorm leader breathing down their necks. However, the two third years then remind the mobs that while Riddle is strict, he HAS helped them. He provides test notes, edits essays, and hosts study sessions for his dorm members. The mobs eventually realize they need Riddle around, so they end up pitching in and getting those lanterns.

THIS IS PARALLELING MRS. ROSEHEARTS. Like his mother, Riddle is very strict with those under his care--but it comes from a place of his "love", from wanting to see them succeed. And, like Riddle is with his mom, the mobs cannot detach themselves entirely from their dorm leader. I know that book 1 primarily paints Riddle adopting his mother's attitude as a toxic thing (and it is, when it gets out of control)--but with moderation, it also has its useful applications, as we see in these vignettes.

Now let's not get it twisted; none of this erases the absurd restrictions imposed on Riddle, her intense rage, or the child neglect/abuse committed. What I am saying is that she is a person too, not a blob of all things bad in the world. She deserves grace and to have her positives acknowledged too--and this naturally feeds into Riddle's complicated feelings about her, especially now that he sees her bad sides... something he never really faced before.

Riddle's vignettes end on a hopeful note, though I don't know if the characters themselves realize the implications of it. The final scene takes place with the lantern-filled sky, and Deuce wondering why the Princess in the Tower grew her hair out so long to begin with. Was she planning to escape all along? But Jack explains that the witch that kidnapped her wanted the Princess to grow her hair long. The Princess in the Tower obeyed this wish, even though maintaining such long hair is a hassle. To this, Deuce comments that she really must have seen the witch as her mother. Riddle then says that no matter how precious the hair was, it's still cumbersome. "She can't even walk like this." AND THEN RIDDLE JUST CASUALLY SLICES HIS HAIR OFF, NO HESTIATION... ONE CHOP. Deuce panics because the ends look ugly, but Riddle simply replies there's no need to worry, "I do not need long hair anymore."

DO YOU REALIZE WHAT THAT MEANS???????? ? ??? ? ????? Long hair is the symbol of Rapunzel's oppression. It is something she maintains because her oppressor, Gothel, told her to. But long hair is also what ultimately frees her from the tower. The same is true of Riddle. He largely does what he is told to by his mother, believing that she is always correct. Riddle almost doesn't leave the library (despite the long hair being an easy way out) because "I've decided. Never again." He's so close to locking himself up in that metaphorical tower and not allowing himself out for fear of incurring her wrath for disobeying. And in the end, Riddle is still able to leave that tower. He so easily slices his long hair, something which prevents the Princess--HIM--from walking. But in severing that thread, CUTTING THE HAIR, he is freeing himself and finding a way to walk independently.

Maybe Riddle can't do it today (as he so clearly still respects his mother and all that she has done for him)... maybe not tomorrow, either... but someday. Someday...!! Someday, Riddle will be able to "cut his long hair" and walk on his own 😭 and then his life will truly "begin"... Why this nuanced writing get shoved into a vignette and not in the Wish Lantern event story itself, I'LL NEVER UNDERSTAND--

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unionizedwizard · 1 year ago

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so. many people have already pointed that koana is sort of like an ARR alphinaud remix and while it is not untrue, i think this analysis is only superficially correct. because the salient point of koana's character is that he feels shame and resentment towards his roots & origins and therefore overcompensates with sharlayan weabooism (well-intentioned, but still unsuitable). he comes off as really weird and stuck up, in the beginning especially, where it's like. "what the fuck is this guy's problem" in a way that's rather similar to the average player's reaction to ARR alphinaud.

BUT!

the thing with ARR alphinaud is that he was the Quintessential Sharlayan, both on account of his upbringing and family tree, and of his personal interests and achievements. he was (and still is) secure in his origins and cultural identity. koana's case is different, because he clearly loathes tradition and turali cultural practices in a way that comes across (and fundamentally is) really weird and destructive, which comes to bite him in the ass on many occasions during the rite of succession (and understandably so).

it all starts to make sense when you learn about his backstory though. while we know that wuk lamat doesn't remember anything of her own childhood, having been adopted by gulool ja ja as a toddler, koana was adopted at a much older age. he remembers his early years, and that's what fuels his entire vision for the future of tural. as he tells it, he was born to one of the most traditionalist hhetsarro tribes in tural, and abandoned (accidentally(?) left behind) during one of their yearly migrations, only surviving thanks to a pelupelu merchant who rescued and took him in before employing him in his tuliyollal shop. an obviously incredibly traumatic event that would shape everything about his future mindset: he's closed off and withdrawn to the extreme, highly analytical, values self-sufficiency and independence and technical innovations above all else, because that's how he survived to begin with. because his nomadic, highly traditional, presumably (from what we've seen of the one hhetsarro tribe we've met so far) tight-knit, spiritual and social tribe rejected and abandoned him. it would make sense that he'd rationalize this unfathomable violence by leaning hard into the opposite, and letting his own pain and resentment color his entire vision, turning his own feelings into a more general mindset of shame, resentful inadequacy, and complete rejection of anything "traditional"

i think sharlayan was a good choice for him because it's pretty much, indeed, the opposite atmosphere: in sharlayan culture, family ties are a lot less emphasized, while the kind of ties that colleagues, peers, teachers and students develop are considered as very important (see pretty much every sidequest and margrat's custom deliveries and all). all these relationships based on a common work and aspirations rather than origins would indeed agree with koana's character better, and his analytical skills, vision and intelligence are pretty much the most valued traits to them.

which is why it was actually such a stroke of genius to have thancred and urianger specifically support him. of course, both of them had a character development arc that echoed with koana's issues: learning how to express himself more openly and acknowledge his feelings, all that, meaning they were uniquely able to help him. but when you look more closely, they can also relate to him on a more personal level: thancred was "adopted" by louisoix as an orphaned lominsan street urchin, probably at a similar age as koana when he was adopted by gulool ja ja; and urianger's parents notably "abandoned" him to the point he was mostly tagging along at moenbryda's house and, later, at the leveilleur estate, as louisoix's disciple and honorary uncle to the twins (also worth noting that urianger and koana share the same flavor of autism).

so the rite of succession was a much-needed window into his own biases and (literal) coping mechanisms, and must have been quite difficult to deal with considering pretty much all the feats involved interacting with and strengthening tight-knit smaller communities with strong traditions and family ties. luckily, partly thanks to thancred and urianger (but not only! he did the work himself), he was clear-minded enough to realize his own failings, and well-intentioned enough to step down - because he did not want power for its own sake, unlike zoraal ja; he wanted to protect the turali people from a potential invasion by leaning hard into foreign technological advances, therefore mimicking his own personal journey and adapting his own tried-and-true methods of survival: anticipating the hardships, being as independent and self-sufficient as possible, and choosing isolationism.

and finally i want to point out that the new techniques and technologies he imported from sharlayan are all (safe, fast and reliable) modes of transportation: aetherytes, dirigibles (including the alpaca carriage adaptation), and trains. interesting choice, moreso considering that while aetherytes are the #1 sharlayan specialty, they have neither dirigibles nor trains; which takes on a whole new layer of meaning when you remember that his original tribe was nomadic and that he specifically was left behind, stranded in the desert, during one of their traditional migrations............

in this regard he truly IS green g'raha, considering that g'raha was, similarly, raised in a traditional seeker manner before being sent to sharlayan for his own (and the tribe's) safety; of course the difference is that g'raha embraced his heritage by locking himself in the crystal tower by the end of ARR, since the G tribe was tasked with guarding the remaining allagan ruins and weapons, to make sure their power would not be misused by yet another imperialist military force (he locked himself in the tower to reinforce its defenses and make sure the garlean empire would not access it to conquer eorzea)

thank you for your time 👍

#dawntrail spoilers #dawntrail #7.0 spoilers #koana #listen i know i'm forgetting a bunch of things #but this is a beginning #i also think (and hope?) that he'll get more character development #what a great and compelling character i did not anticipate that i'd love him so much #on a more personal basis this is killing me because this is pretty much irma's entire character and backstory.#top ten traumatized children who developed hardcore cringe sharlayan weaboo tendencies To Cope

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majimaisms · 4 months ago

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@ccile03 has very kindly invited me to give my two (million) cents on this and i wanted to explain, as best i could, how i interpreted majima's character arc in pirate yakuza. however. this post definitely got away from me, so be prepared, this is going to be a LONG one, and it's the most comprehensive analysis i've done of majima as a character to date. i think i just wanted an excuse to talk about the game, honestly

introduction

i think i should start by saying that i think what we see in this game is not an arc for majima in its entirety, but the culmination of one that we had been observing (glimpsing, really) from the sidelines for years. so the question of "what arc did majima have in this game?" is really a question of "what arc did majima have in this series?" and to answer that, we have to start at the beginning.

from the moment he's introduced in the first game, majima is shown to be cynical and nihilistic.

scott strichart, who was in charge of majima's english localization throughout y0-k2 and y6-y7, had this to say about this scene, which i completely agree with:

First, you need to understand Majima's primary motivation - Saejima. Ever since he missed participating in that hit, Majima's singular, driving goal is to give Saejima the opportunity to confront him and exact whatever punishment he feels is appropriate. So Majima sets out from square -1 to get back into the Tojo Clan and gain enough power and position to do that. But as you know, in Y0, he discovers that some costs are too great, which throws his entire life's purpose into question: How do I balance my own sense of right and wrong with the tenacity I must have in order get back into the clan and to Saejima? That answer comes in the shape of three different dudes who give him three different answers to how one is "tenacious" - Lee, who would go to ANY length to protect the ones he loves, Nishitani, who throws his entire self into his pursuit of pleasure, and even Sagawa, who as Majima tells him, is "practically immortal." But what happens to his three paragons of tenacity? Well, you know that answer if you've played Y0. What happens when Majima attempts to take the moral high ground? What happens when he dares to show some modicum of emotion? [...] And the evidence of Majima's mindset in Kiwami is right in the first few lines when you meet him: What's the point of doing the right thing? "Doing things that way is going to break you." But no… that's just a projection. Majima is the one who got broken. And if you've played Y2 through Y5, you see the facade slowly start to fade. It's a really interesting growth of the character.

note the parts i highlighted in bold. we will get back to these later.

i think to understand majima and what this game does for him as a character, you have to understand both his problem and how he has tried to solve that problem. you have to understand his tragedy. and for that, you have to understand the psychological consequences of being part of an organization like the yakuza. the emotional impact it has on your life, on your relationship with yourself, and why. this context informs most of my analysis because i think its inextricable from majima as a character. i will also be heavily quoting simone weil to talk about these ideas, so please bear with me.

1. understanding the problem (and what it isn't)

the thing is, it's not easy to do awful things to other people. it's not easy to extort money from people, it's not easy to threaten them, it's not easy to attack someone when it's not in self defense. it's not easy to be mean. it's not easy to lie, cheat, steal. all of these things have an emotional toll: guilt. now, guilt goes away if you let it, but that has a spiritual toll. but where does that guilt come from in the first place?

simone weil says:

There exists an obligation towards every human being for the sole reason that he or she is a human being, without any other condition requiring to be fulfilled, and even without any recognition of such obligation on the part of the individual concerned.

All human beings are bound by identical obligations [...]. No human being, whoever he may be, under whatever circumstances, can escape them without being guilty of crime; save where there are two genuine obligations which are in fact incompatible, and a man is forced to sacrifice one of them. The imperfections of a social order can be measured by the number of situations of this kind it harbours within itself. But even in such a case, a crime is committed if the obligation so sacrificed is not merely sacrificed in fact, but its existence denied into the bargain.

majima is torn between two incompatible obligations. his obligation towards every human being in the world, and his obligation towards saejima. whether or not his obligation to saejima is a genuine one is a matter of interpretation (as in, whether or not he was really responsible for failing saejima. i think there is merit to his sense of responsibility regarding this, but that's another post) and an important distinction to make, but the fact remains that it registers to majima as a genuine one.

weil also says:

There is a reality outside the world, that is to say, outside space and time, outside man's mental universe, outside any sphere whatsoever that is accessible to human faculties. Corresponding to this reality, at the centre of the human heart, is the longing for an absolute good, a longing which is always there and is never appeased by any object in this world. That reality is the unique source of all the good that can exist in this world: that is to say, all beauty, all truth, all justice, all legitimacy, all order, and all human behaviour that is mindful of obligations. Those minds whose attention and love are turned towards that reality are the sole intermediary through which good can descend from there and come among men. Although it is beyond the reach of any human faculties, man has the power of turning his attention and love towards it. Nothing can ever justify the assumption that any man, whoever he may be, has been deprived of this power. It is a power which is only real in this world in so far as it is exercised. The sole condition for exercising it is consent.

now, you don't have to agree with any of this, but i will be using this framework and language to make my points because i find it useful.

what this all comes down to is that "moral behavior" is not something done only for the sake of others, and that in fact there is no distinction between the sake of oneself and others. you cannot hurt others without also hurting yourself in some way. my analysis rests on this key point.

weil says that corresponding to these human obligations, we can identify a number of human needs, some of which have to do with the physical side of life (like food, shelter, security) and some of which have to do with the moral side.

They form, like our physical needs, a necessary condition of our life on this earth. Which means to say that if they are not satisfied, we fall little by little into a state more or less resembling death, more or less akin to a purely vegetative existence.

she says that human collectivities (family, country, organization, etc.) fulfill these needs. the collectivity that majima is part of is the tojo clan and in a broader sense, the yakuza. they are not part of civil society, but as weil notes, their obligations towards people outside of the yakuza are not lessened by this fact, and anyone whose attention and love is turned towards "good" is aware of this. so they feel the full weight of these obligations. majima feels this weight.

we can see here that majima is being driven by a need, a need that corresponds to his obligations to other people. he calls it "being a man", weil calls it "being mindful of obligations."

weil has identified some of these needs, which she calls "the needs of the soul", as follows:

HONOUR is a vital need of the human soul. [...] honour has to do with a human being considered not simply as such, but from the point of view of his social surroundings. This need is fully satisfied where each of the social organisms to which a human being belongs allows him to share in a noble tradition enshrined in its past history and given public acknowledgment. For example, for the need of honour to be satisfied in professional life, every profession requires to have some association really capable of keeping alive the memory of all the store of nobility, heroism, probity, generosity and genius spent in the exercise of that profession.

PUNISHMENT is a vital need of the human soul. [...] The most indispensable punishment for the soul is that inflicted for crime. By committing crime, a man places himself, of his own accord, outside the chain of eternal obligations which bind every human being to every other one. Punishment alone can weld him back again; fully so, if accompanied by consent on his part; otherwise only partially so.

Initiative and RESPONSIBILITY, to feel one is useful and even indispensable, are vital needs of the human soul. [...] For this need to be satisfied it is necessary that a man should often have to take decisions in matters great or small affecting interests that are distinct from his own, but in regard to which he feels a personal concern. He also requires to be continually called upon to supply fresh efforts.

i find this language and framework for talking about the concepts of virtue, guilt, redemption and how those things tie into one's professional and social life very useful when exploring the relationship rgg characters have to the yakuza and to themselves.

i will be focusing on these three needs for now because i think they are where the crux of majima's struggle lies. not only majima, but every yakuza who feels the weight of human obligations. because the work they do as yakuza does not fulfill their need for honor, and the crimes they commit by not fulfilling their obligations (as they are exploiting and profiting off innocent people, depriving them of their vital needs) creates the need for punishment. this is part of why we see these characters go to prison so willingly.

being yakuza means effectively denying one's own need for honor. this compels these characters to remedy this by clinging to whatever amount or kind of honor they can maintain. it's this cycle that keeps them going, that pushes these characters to commit the extraordinary acts of heroism we admire them for. it's because they are driven by the need to make up for something. for being yakuza.

weil says:

[...] a collectivity has its roots in the past. It constitutes the sole agency for preserving the spiritual treasures accumulated by the dead, the sole transmitting agency by means of which the dead can speak to the living.

she says that the need to be rooted is the most important need of the soul, and that being part of a collectivity, a "social organism" as she calls it, and having active participation in it is the only means of fulfilling this need. yakuza are no exception. RGG's consistent theme of carrying on the dreams of others is a form of "the dead speaking to the living", that is to say, a form of fulfilling the need for roots – which by the way is the name of the book these excerpts are from.

Every social organism, of whatever kind it may be, which does not provide its members with these satisfactions, is diseased and must be restored to health.

There are collectivities which, instead of serving as food, do just the opposite: they devour souls. In such cases, the social body is diseased, and the first duty is to attempt a cure; in certain circumstances, it may be necessary to have recourse to surgical methods. With regard to this matter, too, the obligation for those inside as for those outside the collectivity is an identical one. [...] Finally, there are dead collectivities which, without devouring souls, don’t nourish them either. If it is absolutely certain that they are well and truly dead, that it isn’t just a question of a temporary lethargy, then and only then should they be destroyed.

the yakuza, by measure of the number of situations it creates where incompatible obligations have to compete against each other, is a deeply imperfect social order. but as weil notes, sacrificing obligations and denying their existence are distinct compromises. "guilt goes away if you let it" – this is where that distinction lies. to free yourself of guilt, you have to deny the existence of these obligations, and so deny your own need for punishment. and the spiritual toll of that exchange is pragmatism, which weil describes as "spiritually crossing a boundary equivalent to death."

she says this about denying the existence of obligations:

Actually, such a negation is impossible. It amounts to spiritual suicide. And Man is so made that in him spiritual death is accompanied by psychological diseases in themselves fatal. So that, in fact, the instinct of self-preservation prevents the soul from doing more than draw closer to such a state [...]. Almost always, he who denies all obligations lies to others and to himself; in actual fact, he recognizes some amongst them. There isn’t a man on earth who doesn’t at times pronounce an opinion on good and evil, even if it be only to find fault with somebody else.

many yakuza try to avoid guilt (and the need for punishment) by denying the existence of human obligations. simply put, it's a way of running from accountability.

but guilt is not the reason for majima's struggle with this. majima has already decided that he is not going to cross that spiritual boundary to avoid guilt, because he understands that the consequences would be nothing more than a self-betrayal. he has too much respect for the truth to lie to himself like that. his "longing for an absolute good" compels him to accept his need for punishment. and he is not confused about what he thinks is right or wrong.

yakuza 0 was not about majima trying to decide whether or not killing an innocent girl was wrong. he knew it was wrong. it was about whether or not it was worth it to kill an innocent person. if he had been grappling with whether or not murder was wrong, it would've been equivalent to "spiritual suicide" as weil calls it. but he never denies the existence of such an obligation on his part – he never pretends it wasn't wrong to kill a defenseless civilian.

and his takeaway was that it was not worth it. it was not worth it to kill makoto to fulfill his obligation to saejima. he sacrificed his obligation to saejima, but no "crime" was committed in this process because he did not deny the existence of his obligations towards anyone. his need for honor was not sacrificed, and thus no self-betrayal took place. once again, denying human obligations is synonymous with self betrayal in this framework.

majima simply will not do something that he knows he will regret later out of guilt, and he takes care to predict what he will feel guilty about so as to avoid this outcome. his judgment regarding this remained solid throughout y0, even if it wavered at times.

another example of majima being torn between two genuine obligations was in y5.

this scene is remarkable to me because it's the only other time, aside from y0, we see the consequences of majima "daring to show a modicum of emotion." his obligations are being used against him. the "longing for an absolute good" in his heart is being used against him. because in order to fulfill his obligation to saejima here (to not put him to the same impossible choice), he would have to sacrifice a much more universal one, as well as a personal one to kiryu. and then how could he "call himself a man"?

saejima tells him that if he was the kind of person who would let haruka die, he would've killed him anyway. but this doesn't stop majima from still being apologetic in this scene – he still feels the weight of his responsibility to saejima, even if they are in agreement that it should be sacrificed. the existence of both obligations are acknowledged, thus no "crime" takes place, just like in y0. once again, we see that majima's problem is not in denying the existence of obligations.

majima's struggle here has to do with how to prevent things from coming to a point where he has to sacrifice obligations in the first place. this was his takeaway from y0. the obvious answer to this is to quit the clan, but it's too late for that. he already did that and just ended up going back. his obligations to the people in his life (saejima, kiryu) and his need for roots keep him tied to the clan.

so, what does he do instead?

2. understanding the "solution"

this is where we return to scott strichart's comment.

"How do I balance my own sense of right and wrong with the tenacity I must have in order get back into the clan and to Saejima?"

it's misleading to think of his obligation towards saejima as something to be balanced against his sense of right and wrong, as strichart puts it – in reality they are one and the same. the fact that he has to be tenacious is merely an extension of his obligation towards saejima.

more importantly, this is not a question of what moral philosophy to subscribe to, or anything that has to do with speculative reasoning. the singular question majima is struggling with the most in his life is a question of "how" – it's a question of methods.

majima has always been primarily concerned with methods. he is someone who locks onto ends and produces means to achieve them. this is what makes him resourceful. he gets his way, because he finds and makes a way. he is all about getting results.

but strichart's question is only half of majima's problem. the other half comes from his answer to the first one: "by preventing situations in which i will find myself having to choose between obligations."

majima, like strichart, has identified correctly that these situations arise only when he "dares to show a modicum of emotion." thus, the goal should be to simply stop doing that. but how is he going to do that? what method should he choose for that?

his answer to that question is mad dog. this is an answer equivalent to "whichever method works." because the factors that he takes into consideration when trying to formulate an answer for that "should" are concerned entirely with the effectiveness of the method. in other words, majima's mistake is that he doesn't think what he thinks is right or wrong should be the most important deciding factor in determining his methods for preventing situations where he has to sacrifice obligations.

it is, ironically, his dedication to solving this problem without sacrificing either obligation that makes him cross that spiritual boundary. because you see, this too is a form of pragmatism. he's essentially trading one form of spiritual death for another, and so he is still stuck in the cycle of honor and punishment. because methods are not exempt from human obligations either, yet he is denying the existence of those obligations. their existence is "denied into the bargain." pragmatism is the justification for this denial. "the world doesn't give two shits if there's a point or not, so it's better if i don't either."

weil understood the crucial role methods played:

Everything in creation is dependent on method, including the points of intersection between this world and the next.

"the next world" she is referring to is the one she says is the source of all "good" in the world. she is concerned with how to align her methods with her obligations, which is itself a problem of methods.

to majima as well, the most valuable resources in the world are methods that are effective and align with his obligations. why betray himself like this if he can avoid it? and he learns methods from observing people. this was why he ended up following shimano. this is what his "men i respect" thing is about. he means, "people i can learn something from."

but despite being already disillusioned with shimano's methods by the time he dies, he's never been able to successfully replace them with anything else. unable to find anyone around he could learn from, he has resorted to compromise. he decided he couldn't afford to commit to aligning his methods with his obligations. he has prioritized his continued survival and success in the yakuza because of his obligation to saejima, at the cost of his soul. mad dog is the product of that exchange. mad dog is the solution, the justification, the lie.

this is a sacrifice he has had to make because of the social order he exists in. this is why the yakuza is a "diseased" social organism, as weil calls it. this aspect of the yakuza and majima's views on it were explored in majima saga in k2.

let's take a look at majima's methods:

you might note, at this point, that all of these things are things kiryu would never do.

this was what fascinated him about kiryu. because kiryu is suggesting there is a right and wrong method, and not only that, he's saying it's a factor that should be considered, that deserves our attention and love, and we should be mindful of it. he's the embodiment of the principle that we can't justify denying our obligations. this is what he admires kiryu so much for – that he is not betraying himself in the way majima has. he has things to learn from kiryu, and that is what majima respects most above all else.

kiryu represented a solution to his self-imposed spiritual exile. however, this solution was not as straightforward as you would think.

fighting has always been a form of communication, of debate, in RGG. when majima and kiryu are fighting, these are the conflicting ideas that are being tested against each other. and he wants kiryu to prove his methods wrong. because he hates his methods. he realizes he's fighting for the wrong side, and he wants everything he represents to be defeated. to be able to be defeated. and he trains and mentors kiryu specifically for this purpose. he has made himself into a mascot of this spiritually vacant philosophy, but at least he can offer its enemies (which includes himself) something that would effectively function as a training dummy. he is giving kiryu the opportunity to know his enemy. this is a noble goal. it justifies the continued existence of mad dog.

this was a method he thought would work. it's pretty clever, you have to give him that. but in fact, it's only another instance of the two incompatible obligations problem. he's fulfilling his need for honor and punishment, but he's failing to fulfill his need for responsibility towards kiryu.

he needs to make up for this ongoing failure, so the series is full of examples of him going out of his way to help kiryu (y2, y3, y5, iw and now pirate yakuza). as weil said, majima "requires to be continually called upon to supply fresh efforts" for his need for responsibility to be fulfilled. he's glad for the opportunity to help kiryu. he needs kiryu to need his support. in simpler terms, he wants to be useful. he feels this need as it corresponds to his obligations towards kiryu, which are identical to his obligations towards anyone, but which he feels more keenly with kiryu because he's stuck in this cycle of honor, punishment and responsibility, trying to make up for the lack of one through fulfilling the other. and it's specifically tied to kiryu because he can only fulfill his need for honor/punishment through kiryu, because kiryu is the only one strong enough to defeat him in a fight. and yet he is failing his other obligations to him in the process BECAUSE of his method.

it would not be too much of an exaggeration to say that the integrity of majima's soul rests in the balance that is the conflict between himself and kiryu. this is why this conflict cannot end. it will remain self-perpetuating so long as they both remain mindful of obligations. they are yin and yang.

let's go back to scott strichart's comment again.

And if you've played Y2 through Y5, you see the facade slowly start to fade. It's a really interesting growth of the character.

while i agree with this, it should be noted that even though majima's facade slowly fades, nothing substantial takes its place. he literally dies in yakuza 5, and he is reborn as nothing more than a mascot, a symbol, a boss fight as far as the games are concerned. just as he was in kiwami. his methods do not change, because he still can't afford to change them. because he is still yakuza.

but he is feeling the emotional and spiritual toll of continuing those methods.

he doesn't have it in him anymore to keep up the act, to prop up mad dog to act as an interface between himself and the world around him.

note here that majima is the perfect visual representation of a dead thing – he's literally wearing the skin of dead animals, and "majima goro" is the first among them. the fact that he is narratively dead in y5, a game about dreams where everyone has an honest job is really, really on the nose when you consider things in these terms.

but y5 does a spectacular job of reminding majima why he needs to stay dead, why he chose to avoid emotional attachments and obfuscate the ones he does have in the first place. if it weren't for an impossibly unlikely chain of events, either haruka would've died or saejima would've had to kill majima. majima doesn't want to risk anyone being put to that choice again. kurosawa's whole plan hinged on the fact that he identified this as a weakness in majima that he planned to use against him – and it almost worked.

this is what he risks happening every time he has conflicting obligations. every time he "shows a modicum of emotion." he has enemies who will use it against him to hurt his loved ones. so even if he is disillusioned with mad dog, as long as he cannot think of a better method of preventing this, he needs to keep up the act. his "solution" has become another cage he finds himself in, because he can't escape the bigger cage he's in: the yakuza.

this is not a problem unique to majima. any yakuza mindful of their obligations struggles with similar problems, because it's the yakuza as an organization imposes this problem on them. it devours souls. this was why it needed to be destroyed.

3. the dissolution, and pirate yakuza

you would think that being out of the yakuza would finally solve a bunch of these problems for majima (and saejima and daigo.) instead, this is the state they're in.

because they understand that they were not the only ones who gave their souls to the clan. there were thousands of others, and those thousands joined the clan because of them. because of the promises they made. it is their responsibility to honor their men's sacrifices and their own promises by taking care of them after the dissolution, but they have no way of fulfilling their need for responsibility, honor or punishment as it concerns their obligations to these people.

the shame, guilt and helplessness is really setting in as they are forced to face their failure. and the sacrifices they made along the way? they have nothing to show for any of it. all the justifications, all the self-betrayals, all the compromises. the obligations they sacrificed. the people they've hurt. this is where it all culminates.

this is how lost they are, how lost majima is – he seems to be doing the worst out of the three of them – in the absence of any methods to reconnect to and do right by the social organism he's part of, his roots. they are cut off from any means of helping the people they used to lead and feel responsible for. they are uprooted.

weil says:

Uprootedness is by far the most dangerous malady to which human societies are exposed, for it is a self-propagating one. For people who are really uprooted there remain only two possible sorts of behaviour: either to fall into a spiritual lethargy resembling death [...] or to hurl themselves into some form of activity necessarily designed to uproot, often by the most violent methods, those who are not yet uprooted, or only partly so.

Whoever is uprooted himself uproots others. Whoever is rooted himself doesn’t uproot others.

majima, saejima and daigo fell into the former category. it is a testament to how mindful they are of obligations that they did not fall into the latter.

kiryu tried to break them out of that spiritual lethargy in infinite wealth, reminding them of their obligations. remember what i said earlier about kiryu being the "embodiment of the principle that we can't justify denying our obligations"? this is him doing it again, as always. and this was the single most life-affirming thing he could do for them.

on the growing of roots, weil had this to say:

The problem of a method for breathing an inspiration into a people is quite a new one. [...] It is unfortunate for us that this problem, in regard to which, unless I am wrong, we have nothing we can look to for guidance, should be precisely the one that requires today the most urgent solution on our part.

she identified the problem of growing roots as a problem of methods of inspiring people. on this, she wrote:

It sometimes happens that a thought, either formulated to oneself or not formulated at all, works secretly on the mind and yet has but little direct influence over it. If one hears this thought expressed publicly by some other person, and especially by someone whose words are listened to with respect, its force is increased an hundredfold and can sometimes bring about an inner transformation. It can also happen that one needs, whether one realizes it or not, to hear certain words, which, if they are effectively pronounced, and in a quarter whence one would normally expect good to come from, infuse comfort, energy and as it were a food.

just as this was the case with kiryu in infinite wealth, it is the case with noah in pirate yakuza.

violence is a tool. majima has always viewed it as such, but here noah is telling him that not only is it a tool, he doesn't think it's an inherently bad one. he thinks it's cool. he is radically accepting of majima in a way he has never experienced before.

we know that majima has had a complicated history with violence. he hit his wife and left her. he's been using it as a method to keep his subordinates in line for years – something he ideologically does not agree with, but has accepted as a necessary sacrifice. it's not a coincidence that the first thing majima remembers about himself is his guilt surrounding his violence – guilt enabled to become manifest in the absence of his justification, in the absence of mad dog, which had acted not only as an interface between majima and the world, but between himself and his own needs. everything was filtered through mad dog.

but instead of condoning violence via majima's philosophy of pragmatism, which majima has used as a justification (a lie), noah is offering him a way out of the dilemma he's been stuck in for decades. he suggests that as long as you're fighting for the right thing (which majima is in this case), violence is a perfectly acceptable method that does not constitute a crime, and thus, should not create a need for punishment. it's reassuring to majima in exactly the way he needs. it's also something no one else in his life could reassure him about, because they're too busy feeling guilty about their own violence. only someone who is truly "innocent" could absolve majima of this guilt.

majima's face in that last shot is all the evidence you need for its impact. this is what he's needed to hear his whole life, and it would not have had the same impact coming from anyone other than a child. and it had to be this specific child, because:

To no matter whom the question may be put in general terms, nobody is of the opinion that any man is innocent if, possessing food himself in abundance and finding someone on his doorstep three parts dead from hunger, he brushes past without giving him anything. So it is an eternal obligation towards the human being not to let him suffer from hunger when one has the chance of coming to his assistance.

this was the model on which weil based her theory of human needs and obligations, because it was "the most obvious obligation of all." it also happens to be the opening scene of pirate yakuza.

noah's attention and love is demonstrably turned towards human obligations. he is also notably the only person around who has fulfilled this most obvious of obligations. majima himself acknowledges this, saying he "never thought hawaii would be so cold."

noah represents an ideal for majima that he has aspired to his whole life: innocence. this is why he is inspired by noah. the "method" of inspiration in question that majima had been lacking comes to him in the form of a person. and it had to be a person, because majima has always been inspired by individuals. and not only majima, either. RGG as a series is full of examples of this.

It is only through things and individual beings on this earth that human love can penetrate to that which lies beyond.

it's our connections to individuals that remind us of our obligations towards every human being. love becomes universal through the particular. weil understood the important part love plays in motivating people to change. it was her answer to how to grow roots again – her answer to the question of how to inspire people.

it is precisely this form of inspiration that majima had been deprived of for decades, especially after the dissolution as he'd sunk into depression. and this was always the solution, but there were several obstacles to it prior to this game:

he could not afford to have personal human connections in his life, even after the dissolution. he'd learned the hard way what happens when he "dares to show a modicum of emotion," as scott strichart put it.

as long as he was still relying the same tools, he could not effectively change his methods. this game forced him to do that by taking away his favorite tool: mad dog.

even if he wanted to use his violence only for the right things, he had obligations to the clan that would have him using that tool for less-than-noble ends.

because of this, even after the dissolution, he was stuck in the cycle between honor and punishment which obfuscated the truth and confused him. and there can be no inspiration without access to truth.

all of these problems were imposed on him by the social order he was part of – namely, the yakuza. this is why its dissolution was a necessary prerequisite to majima's "growth", but it was still not enough on its own. the amnesia was the second prerequisite.

he needed to face his past, but for that to help him in any way, he first needed to be inspired, so that he could look back on events with a new perspective. and the amnesia was the prerequisite for the inspiration, because it reduced the weight of his guilt and thus his need for punishment, breaking the honor-punishment cycle.

what this game is for majima is an exit. it's an exit from the emotional and spiritual exile he's imposed on himself, that the yakuza has imposed on him, and the self-alienation he's suffered because of it. amnesia is what it takes for him to be reunited with himself. he had to forget who he is so he could be who he is. such was the extent of his self-betrayal.

within the space provided him by this exit, there is room for change. transformation. for majima, that means changing his methods. this game is addressing a problem he's been aware of for decades but could not do anything about.

some examples of him facing his past with this new perspective:

he's realizing what he was to these people, who looked up to him, who he allowed to look up to him, who he took upon himself to lead – and he's hating what he sees. he doesn't like his methods. and he's running from the responsibility of doing right by them, refusing saejima when he asks him to go back.

he's afraid of facing how much he's failed his subordinates by his own standards – a reality he'd lived with for decades before his amnesia. the fact that we actually see how much it bothers him in this game is invaluable, because it means he's letting himself acknowledge that. he can no longer rely on the lie (justification) he had been telling himself to sustain this self betrayal. he is disillusioned with his own pragmatism. noah has exposed the lie, and he allowed it to be exposed. he is now ready to take right and wrong into consideration when deciding his methods – all because noah has reminded him of his obligations in a way that commands his attention, in a way he can't turn away from, and because he no longer has to sacrifice his soul to the clan. this game is, effectively, undoing the spiritual death he had undergone.

he's outright calling his old self, his old ideas, his old methods, "dumb as shit." majima is reinventing his identity, his reputation, his presence in the world and his connection to it. he's been given a chance to become someone he can be proud of again – this is why he likes the way noah looks at him, why he doesn't want to give up on it. it motivates him to commit to his transformation instead of wallowing in guilt like he was in infinite wealth.

he's getting to do it all over again with noah in a way he himself actually approves of, with a clear conscience. not just because noah is a kid, not just because he's lost his memory, not just because he's not yakuza anymore, but because of all those things in combination. that is to say, none of these factors are arbitrary. they were each necessary for achieving this state for majima – a state where change is possible, and he is inspired to change.

"captain majima" is someone he can be proud of.

he rejects his legacy as a yakuza completely. this goes as far as rejecting his bond with saejima. he doesn't want to be called "kyoudai" by him, he'll only answer to "captain." as he's coming to terms with how much it went against his nature to be yakuza, he's trying to distance himself from it as much as possible.

but he's running. he's not trying to run from his responsibilities to the yakuza like saejima thinks – he's running from owning up to his legacy. this is why he pretends to still not have his memories back when shigaki confronts him.

but it's not just the yakuza: the nebulous entity that told them that. it's what majima told them. it's what majima built his legend around.

yakuza 0 was not a game of positive character development for majima. it was the story of how and why he learned to betray himself. it was the origin story of his justification, his nihilism. it was the birth of mad dog. and this game is the counterpart to that – the death of mad dog.

One of the indispensable foods of the human soul is LIBERTY. Liberty, taking the word in its concrete sense, consists in the ability to choose.

the mad dog legend wasn't something that majima stumbled upon against his will like kiryu's dragon of the dojima legend. majima built this. he wanted this. he was trying to rise in the ranks (for saejima), and his legend is what it is because he was so, so wary of being taken advantage of. not only out of his own need for liberty, but out of the obligation he feels towards everyone else. this is the price of turning yourself into a weapon: you have to be very, very careful who you allow to wield you, and towards what end. that becomes your responsibility.

this was why majima was apologetic in that y5 scene – he had failed to prevent kurosawa from using him, and he understands that it is his responsibility to prevent that. this is why the mad dog legend is what it is. he had to find a way to "tear his leash" so that no one could wield him.

but his own preoccupation with freedom, his fear of being used by others, this fight he's been fighting against himself for decades has made him a bad role model. he's finally facing that, and not only that, but he is remedying it, too.

his own unhealthy treatment of himself, his own betrayal of himself, has done actual harm to others. his own misjudgment has led people who looked up to him astray. and he should've known better. done better, been more.

he should've been the one inspiring his subordinates, he should've been the one reminding them of their obligations. instead he has created a legend that has done just the opposite. a legend that has given people another excuse to deny their obligations. because that legend was born out of majima's own excuse for denying his own obligations. THAT is majima's failure. he has failed others in the exact same way he has failed himself. it could not have turned out any other way.

he has failed as a leader, as a patriarch and he's acknowledging that. but that on its own doesn't do much in the way of helping him. this game is about majima stepping up to not only hold himself accountable, which he already HAS been doing, but to do something about it. holding yourself accountable for mistakes you just continue to make or cannot begin to make up for is the very definition of being stagnant. this is the "state more or less resembling death, more or less akin to a purely vegetative existence" he was in for pretty much the entirety of the series, reaching its peak in infinite wealth when he had been cut off from all means of effectively taking responsibility.

and he is finally being given the opportunity to take responsibility – a vital need. he is being given the opportunity to undo the damage, to guide them towards a better path, to remind them of their obligations. just like kiryu.

majima, in true kiryu fashion, is telling these people exactly what he himself needs to hear – needed to hear, and that noah made him realize the moment they met. he is being given a second chance. an opportunity to redeem himself, to START redeeming himself. start over. and he's paying the same kindness forward. if it's not too late to for him to start doing the right thing, then it isn't too late for shigaki either, and vice versa.

[...] man has the power of turning his attention and love towards it. Nothing can ever justify the assumption that any man, whoever he may be, has been deprived of this power. [...] The sole condition for exercising it is consent.

majima understands this, and he understands that applying this principle to shigaki necessitates that he apply it to himself also. a person can always, always choose to do good – not only that, they are compelled to at all times. it takes energy to resist it. this was what caused his burnout in y5 and arguably y4 before that.

this game is about majima taking responsibility for his legacy as a yakuza, much like kiryu did in infinite wealth. this is what they're using his amnesia for. a story about him wallowing in guilt or trying to fulfill his need for punishment would have been the opposite of growth for majima, because the whole problem was that his method of trying to achieve personal growth through honor and punishment had not been working for him. a radically new approach was required. you can't fix something with the same tools that broke it.

just as his own neglect of his needs had caused the problem, the solution also comes from fulfilling those needs for himself. he has to stop betraying himself in order to make things right with the people he's failed. to take responsibility, he has to give up mad dog.

this does not necessarily mean giving up violence, but it does mean using it as a tool for ends that do not conflict his needs. a good example of this is the scene where he threatens to cut fingers.

it's his last resort, not his first one. he is being given room for that now. it's important to note here that he is not threatening to cut fingers to punish someone for insubordination as he has done his entire life – instead it's in the name of ensuring cooperation between others (a noble goal), for something he has no personal stake in. he doesn't want any of the money, he refuses to take a cut of it. he is not playing the antagonist here, and he is very open about his intentions unlike the "old" majima goro who obscured his intentions at every turn for the sake of playing the antagonist.

y0 was the last time we saw majima so earnest, because it was y0 that taught him not to be earnest. this game is undoing the damage.

[...] complete, unlimited freedom of expression for every sort of opinion, without the least restriction or reserve, is an absolute need on the part of the intelligence. It follows from this that it is a need of the soul, for when the intelligence is ill-at-ease the whole soul is sick.

sure, he didn't hold his tongue against his superiors, we've seen him do it countless times throughout the series. but to be able to openly express his goals, his intentions, his own judgment and act accordingly is a previously unthinkable mode of living for majima.

once again, it's about methods, and this game IS the difference between methods, especially as it concerns communication.

it's the difference between "if adults like us are good for anything, it should be nurturing that hope" and "keep that up, and it'll break you." him establishing himself as an ally, instead of an antagonist. he has played the antagonist his entire life, because it was the only way he could think to fulfill his obligations, but the world doesn't need more antagonists. and he's been failing not only his subordinates or himself, but kiryu and everyone else he loves as well.

this is what this scene in infinite wealth was about. majima's methods are destructive, not only to everyone he cares about, but also to himself – because there is no difference between those things. such is the nature of love.

majima finally, finally gets to play the hero after a lifetime of playing the antagonist. he's taking the leaf out of kiryu's book that he couldn't until this point, that he so admired kiryu for. it's a dream come true for him – maybe the oldest one he had.

and in some ways, this is also majima carrying on kiryu's dream, by applying the lessons he learned from him. by emulating him, he's honoring kiryu's principles. he'd told him, all the way back in 1995, that he'd "see those ideals of his to the end." well, this is what that looks like in its most effective form.

this ending really says it all, in my opinion, because it's majima looking at the journey and finding joy in that instead of the end goal. for ONCE in his life. maybe for the first time in his life. because for the first time he is ABLE to do that. for the first time there is something to enjoy about the journey. he is so unconcerned with results here that he doesn't even take the money.

he has been so, so preoccupied with reaching his goals that he has sacrificed the journey, the "methods" and betrayed himself in the process his whole life. this is where it stops.

[...] honour has to do with a human being considered not simply as such, but from the point of view of his social surroundings.

i think it's fair to say that his new methods and outlook on life are here to stay.

conclusion

this game is no joke. it's the most beautiful and profound thing they've done with majima... ever.

to be honest, whether or not most of this should be called "growth" is debatable – i think it can be said instead, more accurately, that growth was not the point of this game. the point of this game and how significant the things it does for majima lie beyond "growth". its value comes from the fact that it fulfills needs for majima that he had not been able to for decades.

majima's problem was not that he needed growing. his problem was that he had been in spiritual exile for 40 years. pirate yakuza was not just "upbeat", it was a celebration of majima being reunited with his soul. and as any celebration ought to be, it was joyful and inspiring. the light tone of the game is not because it is lacking in depth, but because the nature of the subject matter lends itself to hope more than anything else.

a game that was conceptualized as an infinite wealth gaiden had to deal with these themes. to tie the loose end that is majima, so to speak – to give a satisfying conclusion to his arc we'd been observing for years. just as infinite wealth was about kiryu's relationship to the yakuza, this game is about majima's relationship to the yakuza and the yakuza's relationship to him. it cannot be thought of separately from infinite wealth and what it was for kiryu. pirate yakuza and infinite wealth are the yin and yang to each other, just as majima and kiryu are to each other. majima has always been, before and above all else, a narrative foil to kiryu. this game is no exception, they're just changing how they're exploring that in the narrative. it's almost like an inversion of what the series has done with the two of them so far, but still united in one theme above all else: hope for the future.

whether or not these themes have been done justice in execution is entirely up to you to decide, so you can still be disappointed with how the game dealt with them – after all, a method still has to be effective to be a good one – but i hope i have been able to give you some perspective on what this game accomplishes with majima as a character.

thanks for reading <3

#i want to note also that the 'got a reputation to protect' line is 'who do you think i am?' in japanese #pirate yakuza in hawaii #majima goro #yakuza #ryu ga gotoku #if anyones made it this far: you are so so brave for reading all of this and i love you #tldr: if youve ever been like 'majima needs to go to therapy'. this game is it #they fixed majima. they did it #my analysis #majeem #majima gaiden #dont ask me the word count of this post btw. i checked. its. not good

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iscdisc · 3 months ago

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2012 Oroku Saki ("The Shredder") Analysis / Also kind of Hamato Yoshi ("Master Splinter") too, but mainly Saki- Lmao || Part 2 !!

Here's Part two of my analysis on Oroku Saki and Hamato Yoshi within the 2012 series ! 👍✨

Are Hamato unreliable narrators within the story? Or the Foot Clan / Oroku?

This is kind of a yes and no thing for me personally. I feel like both sides have had their fair share of spreading misinformation or just not fully understanding certain events that occurred / painting them a particular way upon their recollection of them. My whole take on Hamato Uta and the centuries long Foot Clan / Hamato Clan fued shows this.

We already see this a lot with Shredder throughout the series as well, as he claims over and over again that Yoshi was the one who took Tang Shen's life even though the truth is that it was him all along. Telling himself this so much that he truly ends up believing it by the end of the series. He also blames Splinter for Karai's mutation, even though that was a tragedy of his own making since he's the one that put Karai in that position in the first place, not to mention the fact that he was the one that broke the chain that was suspending Karai over the mutagen vat himself.

However, I feel like we see this with Splinter during his recollection of past events as well.

When he's having his conversation with Karai during, "Vengeance is Mine" in Season 2, we are shown this shot which implies that Saki knowingly and deliberately attacked Yoshi AND Tang Shen during his fit of rage all those years ago. He also proceeds to claim that Saki deliberately burns their house down afterwards.

However, we know this isn't the case at all, since TOTY explicitly shows the chain of events that led to Tang Shen's death and you can see that this wasn't a deliberate action from Saki but rather a horrible circumstance. Both Yoshi and Saki witnessed Tang Shen walk away before they started their battle, so neither of them were expecting her to be there whatsoever. This is further reinforced by their shared shock at her death. We also see throughout their fight that the fire is caused directly from that altercation. Candles that were lit inside were being knocked over by them, which is what actually caused the fire that burned down Yoshi and Tang Shen's home.

I'm not saying Splinter necessarily lied to Karai or that the trauma of it all couldn't have caused Splinter to recall things poorly, since it's entirely plausible. It's also EXACTLY what Saki is doing / experiencing throughout the series. Cough cough. 🙃

And although I've already talked about it kind of extensively in the first part of this analysis, I feel like his relationship with Saki is another instance of him recalling things differently than how they actually were / happened. Which is how I want to pivot into talking about Splinter right now, since I'd like to give some attention to his "perception issue".

Hamato Yoshi / Master Splinter and his relationships with those around him:

I want to make it extensively clear that I personally really enjoy 2012 Splinter as a person and a character. I'm not saying that others can't dislike him or be critical of him or pick apart his character, because obviously you can and I would be super hypocritical for saying you can't considering that's what I do on a daily basis ! I'm also a firm believer of someone being critical of a character or a character's writing and that not necessarily meaning that they think the character is dogshit or an awful person necessarily. Sometimes being critical or analytical of something is how we express our love or interest for it (Like me with this entire decade old series- LMAO) ! But I just wanted to put that out there, since I'm not necessarily going to agree with any negativity or hate comments directed at 2012 Splinter as a character. I just blatantly disagree with most of them, and I think it's okay to agree to disagree if you feel that way. I'm sure a lot of people feel that way about my takes on 2012 April and how I'm pretty overly critical of her and don't really think the best of her canonically. 👍✨

With that out of the way, I really really like talking about Splinter's perspective and how different it feels from perspectivea of the people in his life that he specifically claims to love and care about very much ! It was such a perfect opportunity to really delve into his character and how his relationships, specifically his relationship with his brother Saki, plays such a big role in the overarching plot line that is the 2012 series !

From TOTY, we see the two most important relationships that he currently has in his life (Not discounting his daughter Miwa, but she's still an infant at this point so it's not like they've had many deep conversations- Lmao). Two relationships that, from his perspective, are relatively strong and healthy and wouldn't collapse in the near future whatsoever. I think it's safe to assume that prior to the events of TOTY, before all these issues started flaring up, that this was his mindset completely. I feel like this is also reflected in his mannerisms, and how he comes across so airy and carefree when talking to Saki during their conversation about Yokai with their Father. To Saki, he's being condescending and undermining his opinions / experiences yet again, but to Yoshi he's just shooting the shit with him and having a friendly brotherly interaction. Yoshi's disposition only shifts when Saki pushes further about never listening to others and of course when he brings Tang Shen into the equation. Something similar happens with Tang Shen as well. Yoshi's content and happy being with her and their daughter on their late night stroll, and it's not until Tang Shen brings up wanting to move away that Yoshi shifts once again.

Which leads me to wonder why in his eyes things are completely copesthetic until these problems come up? In both these instances, it seems as though Yoshi just expects them to "understand" rather than meeting them in the middle and actually having a conversation about these things. He wants his Brother to understand that he's always been there for him, despite Saki expressing the opposite which stems from lived experience it seems, and he wants his Wife to understand that he has responsibilities to this Clan and that he can't abandon them. Not that this is an excuse, because I absolutely don't think it is, but part of me feels like this is just a reflection of how he was raised by their Father, Hamato Uta. Where Yoshi was constantly forced to "just understand" when he was burdened with something or forced to bear something, like being the next head of the Clan. That he was "meant to understand" when his Father wouldn't give him the time of day because he was a busy man. Etc.

Through this, you can definitely draw a parallel between Yoshi / Splinter and Leo. Always feeling this need to be perfect, to maintain the vision that your Father has for you, to bear the burden of something that you didn't ask for and not expect any grace or understanding from others in return (Something Splinter expressed to Leo in, "New Girl in Town"-). To sacrifice your wants for what is needed of you, like your individualism and freedom to live your life outside of these responsibilities. I feel like this can be tied to Yoshi very well actually, since we don't exactly get a lot of insight on his feelings and opinions about being the next head of the Hamato Clan,, We honestly don't even know if that's something that he really even wanted. Not that it makes the scene any different, but it's interesting to view his exasperation with Tang Shen's asking to leave from that particular lens. How even if he does feel the same way she does and agrees with her completely, he doesn't believe he's allowed to say that. He doesn't feel like he's allowed to have any dreams or wants outside of this Clan, because those in it depend on him. Yoshi also brings up how this Clan is the last of its kind and that being a big reason why it must endure, which also adds a whole other level of stress,,

Like I said earlier, I don't think this excuses his poor management of his relationships with his Brother and his Wife, but I think it does give a little more insight (Or potential insight-) as to why that was. It also speaks volumes to the way Saki is so gentle and open-minded it seems compared to Yoshi, who comes off cold and emotionally unavailable, during this time (Primarily in his interactions with Tang Shen during TOTY-). In this way, I truly feel like Saki and Raph paralleled one another. I wouldn't be surprised if Saki was actually surprisingly in tune with nature and very respectful of the earth and the universe. That he felt much harder than most people, like Raph, which is why he was so emotionally reactive. That he was actually a lot more receptive than we ever got to know.

This moment from Season 2 ("Vengeance is Mine") always stuck out to me with Saki / Shredder for that very reason. When he's pleading with Karai and expressing how he doesn't want to lock her away (Even though he currently is- 💀 Lmao). Up until this point in the series, this had been the gentlest we had ever seen him. Like a part of his old self was really shining through in this moment,,

But circling back to Yoshi / Splinter, part of me wonders if he was somewhat aware of the state that his relationships were in-? Maybe he was already stressed enough that he just couldn't bring himself to address it without falling apart or feeling like the ground is caving underneath him. So to the detriment of his Brother and his Wife, he maintained this almost aloof attitude towards their concerns as a means of holding himself together. Maybe he didn't feel like he was strong enough to face these problems at the time. This issue clearly wasn't resolved by the time we reach the beginning of the events of the series either, since we can still see this very present in Splinter and how he behaves with his Sons. Regardless of my opinions about April's position here during this conversation (Lmao), I think her questioning of Splinter during the Season 1 finale is a great example of this. His tone and body language truly reflects something almost akin to escapism in my opinion. The way Leo had to pester him constantly for him to open up about Karai being his daughter. The way Splinter seemingly shut down after Karai got recaptured after she finally learned the truth and it seemed like she was within reach for the first time in ages, and Leo was constantly talking about how worried he was about their Father's mental well-being. How Splinter also became kind of closed off yet again after Karai's mutation (And if we're being entirely honest, I wouldn't be surprised if Splinter was a little upset with Leo during this time, which also contributed to his lack of communicating with him-) + a majority of Season 3 due to Karai's new situation. Like I brought up earlier about his upbringing, it seems like Splinter has a hard time really communicating about anything emotionally charged and would rather maintain this composed disposition than to actually confront these things and, quite honestly, cry...

He's eluded to having temperamental tendencies in the past (Like when he was trying to verbally express a lesson to Raph about managing anger in, "Turtle Temper"-), and I wouldn't be surprised if this is something that he's learned to suppress over time. Especially with the "guidance" (so to speak) of their Father, since that most likely contradicted with what he wanted for Yoshi if he were meant to be the next head of the Clan. But Yoshi's not a robot and he shouldn't have been treated like one (If any of my theory were to actually hold up-).

Reasons like this are exactly why I feel like this should have been Splinter's whole Character Arc throughout the 2012 series. How building his relationship with Saki once again would be both a literal battle and a mental / emotional battle. Shedding light on how difficult it can be to overcome emotional pain and mending relationships that you had a lot of fault in, even if you didn't mean it,,

This Character Development Arc absolutely should have started with his Sons (And Daughter, but given the events of the show, I think it would be more feasible to start with his Sons- Lmao) first and foremost. I think having some kind of epiphany through them about his relationships with those he cares about should have been the catalyst for him viewing this entire situation with Saki a completely different way. I think giving the Turtles an opportunity to be more openly honest about how they view him as a Father and how they feel he views them as his Sons would have been the best way to go about that. For Splinter to have a moment where he realizes that maybe the people that he loves and cares about in his life don't always know that he does. Maybe it's obvious to him, since it's his perspective and his actions, but it's not always obvious to them and he needs to consider that more. This should definitely cause him to make connections to his past with Tang Shen and Saki,, Realizing that there actually was some truth to Saki claiming that he doesn't care for anyone but himself. Understanding now why Tang Shen worried about whether or not he would've been a good Father to Miwa, especially in relation to his role in the Hamato Clan. This, of course, wasn't something that he wanted or meant to do, but it still happened,, And he has to face that now.

I also love how having this moment with his Sons would helped break some stigma around masculinity and the relationships that Fathers can have with their Sons. They should be allowed to be emotional together. They should be allowed to have meaningful conversations about their relationships,,

I also feel like this would have been a great way to have more of a discussion about Splinter's position as a Father, and the toll losing his first daughter and abruptly gaining four Sons had on him. I don't think anybody could cope with that very well, and I feel like that should have been reflected in his parenting and how he tackled this new family dynamic. That's honestly why I kind of enjoy the fact that Splinter isn't this "perfect Father", because why would he be? That would make no sense- He has as much growing to do as everybody else in the show- LMAO 😔👍

I think it would have been super interesting to see Yoshi and Saki interact with each other very differently throughout the series in small increments. In Season 1, during the finale, we can see Splinter try to converse with Shredder (Saki) rather than immediately jumping into combat. Again, I'm not saying this couldn't have just been a stall tactic on his end, but I like to think that maybe that was his attempt at trying to be more civil despite everything that's happened. Saki's the one hunting him down, not the other way around, you know? I would have liked to see way more interactions with Splinter and Saki where Splinter truly is just trying to talk to him and reach some kind of understanding. Naturally, this wouldn't yield any results since he hasn't done any reflecting about their positions and their past yet, so his approach would be ineffective. But after Splinter realizes the part that he's played in where they both are right now in their lives, I think he would get through to Saki a lot more. Being more willing to apologize. To understand why Saki is so upset, as opposed to before where he behaved as though he didn't understand why Saki was doing this. To admit that he didn't know about his post and Saki's Father, and he how should've tried harder to make him feel seen (Which I want to add that it would have been absolutely chef's kiss for us to see Splinter actively do more research into the Foot Caln and Hamato Clan past before approaching Saki and trying to fix things- It would truly show how much Splinter means what he's saying and that he actually cares-!) . To reaffirm to Saki that he's a human being just as much as he is, and that Saki has a right to exist without being labeled (Referring to his Foot Clan heritage-). Since Saki's predicament truly feels like the epitome of, "They labeled me a monster, so I became one.", you know?

I also think it would have been interesting for Splinter to grow to view his predicament in a positive way-! Like, if what had happened between him and Saki hadn't happened, he never would have been free from becoming the head of the Hamato Clan and he would have had to wear those metaphorical shackles for the rest of his life. In a way, Saki kind of saved him from that timeline, you know? Which obviously would be bittersweet considering the position that Saki is in currently and the fact that Tang Shen is gone now, but you know- 😭 Lmao

And from Saki's side, it would have been interesting to see him slowly give in to these attempts from Splinter to make amends and fix their relationship. Sparing him more and more despite how often he's threatening Splinter. There being a lot of hesitance in some of Saki's actions. During Season 3, when Splinter was mentally absent and reduced at a rat in the most literal sense ("Return to New York", where the second picture comes from-), what if Shredder had felt guilt and sorrow for him-? To see him in such a state was more painful than it was gratifying, you know? Imagine he took care of Splinter in secret during that time, as to avoid having a confusing and complicated conversation with his followers- It's small details like that that I think would have made all the difference.

This also makes me wish this particular moment from S4 went differently for Yoshi and Saki. For Yoshi to want to help his brother now more than ever, seeing how far he's plunged into this darkness. Saki needed someone . He needed help . He needed support and understanding and a real family .

This would've been such a great parallel to Karai as well, since she too needed help and genuine support,,

I just can't help but think about how great it would have been if Saki was allowed to change and heal alongside Yoshi. So they could be Brothers again. So Yoshi's children didn't have to be subjected to this pain and suffering through their situation anymore. They could all learn to be better from this fucked up situation, you know?

Instead of having one child, Saki can have five (As their Uncle, of course-) ! He can share so many things with them, things that he wanted to as a Father (Figure) but never could properly with Karai (Miwa) for the longest time. The Turtles and Karai can see how human Saki truly is, with Karai going through the motions alongside him given she walked his path the most and I'm sure she has her own set of insecurities that come with that. For Raph to feel the most seen by Karai and Saki in particular. To acknowledge just how much Saki's interactions with Yoshi had paralleled (And somewhat continue to parallel-) his own with Leo. For them find better ways of dealing with their emotional "sensitivity" (so to speak) but also not feel ashamed for being so emotionally intuitive either. For Saki to genuinely laugh for the first time in nearly a decade and a half because of Mikey. I bet Saki would have no problem openly gloating about Mikey's raw potential as a ninja / martial artist, perhaps being super eager to be a mentor for him ! For Donnie to have an Uncle that supports his efforts through giving him access to a top tier lab set up and genuinely showing how impressed he is at Donnie's abilities. For Donnie to have yeah another parental figure that shares in love of love / romance- I'm sure Saki would have many fond stories to share about Tang Shen,, For Yoshi and Saki to both encourage Karai and Leo's individuality and to make strong efforts to unteach any thoughts about barring burdens and heading clans (Which would apply to themselves just as much-). For Karai to have her Father and her Uncle in her life again and it not be for negative reasons. For all of them to visit Tang Shen's grave monthly,,

LIKE, HOW CAN YOU NOT WANT THIS FOR THEM?? 🗣️🗣️

Anyway, this is the conclusion of my analysis (For now anyway-) ! Thank you for reading, as always ! 😌👍✨

#oroku saki #the shredder #shredder #hamato yoshi #master splinter #splinter #tmnt #tmnt 2012 #teenage mutant ninja turtles #teenage mutant ninja turtles 2012 #tmnt 2012 analysis

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anarchy-and-piglins · 3 months ago

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do you have more c technoblade analysis? your thoughts are really well articulated and usually i agree with you

i wasnt there for dsmp stuff so you can talk about anything you’d like

Oh boy, I have a ton of cTechno thoughts all the time, but I feel like I'm bad at pulling them out randomly unless people want to ask/hear about anything specific (which, for the record, I very much embrace; I love cTechno lore questions)

HOWEVER, you're in luck today. Because I did have thoughts this morning!

Specifically, I am thinking once again about cTechno's conversation with cTubbo about the Red Festival during their Saving Michael stream.

Techno's situation during the Red Festival is kind of interesting to me because we know it is a fight Techno would have lost, and thus he decided not to engage with it. We see this as a returning character trait. Techno isn't only a good fighter, he's a smart fighter. He's not reckless.

That is to say, cTechno and ccTechno have both confirmed that in the case of the Red Festival, Techno pulled the trigger on Tubbo (AFTER trying to get out of the situation, dissuade Schlatt of the entire affair, and stall for time so their allies could come help, none of which worked) because he knew that if he refused, then he'd be entering a fight he could not win. He would not have been able to keep Tubbo and himself safe against a crowd of armored and armed people, especially as Tubbo was completely without weapons and armor. The most likely outcome would have been for them both to just be killed anyway, or maybe if they're lucky for one of them to die and the other escape.

And Techno only has one life.

Now, a few characters (mainly cTommy) do believe Techno could have fought his way out of that situation easy-peasy. The problem is that Tommy is in this case wrong. Again, both cTechno and ccTechno confirmed he could not have won, and in fact, we see that Techno's health dropped significantly and he almost died, leaving him to flee, and that is after shooting Tubbo. So yeah, no way would he have made it out with both of their lives intact. (Sadly, some of the fandom also decided to take Tommy's word for it despite cTommy being extremely wrong in this case but that's another post)

Here's why I'm talking about all this. During the Saving Michael stream, Techno apologizes to Tubbo about the events of the Red Festival, but these are the exact words he uses:

"I should have been willing to die for my beliefs back then"

This line still drives me up the wall and makes me chew the isolation /pos. Techno isn't saying he would have survived the Red Festival. He's not saying that he lied about being able to win that fight. HE'S SAYING HE SHOULD HAVE TRIED ANYWAY EVEN IF IT KILLS HIM.

And this comes literally minutes after he admits he only has one life.

Techno's 'belief' in this case is in reference to anarchy, obviously. I could write full dissertations about how Techno's understanding of the concept that is anarchy evolves to be more nuanced and complex throughout the dsmp, and how it is one of my favorite arcs, and why it makes him such a compelling character, but the main point for this post is that Techno got others involved in his cause.

Anarchy is not just Techno's thing anymore. It's the Syndicate's thing. Techno's friends. And one of Techno's defying character traits is that while he's not reckless, he's very much willing to put himself in danger for his friends. So now he feels that he should have put himself in harm's way during the Red Festival because that's what he would do now, after his character development.

He's not apologizing for being unable to save Tubbo - because he still doesn't think he'd be able to, and he's probably right about that. He's apologizing because he has one life and he was unwilling to sacrifice it. But now he is.

#technoblade #tubbo #thoughts

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lu-is-not-ok · 8 months ago

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Hello! Just wanted to say that I've been reading your posts and analyses for awhile now, and I really enjoy them! So, I also thought of sharing a sort of theory of mine, bc I'm very interested in hearing what you might think about it.

For starters, these lines from Jia Xichun are very intriguing:

«No amount of pain could wake it from... whatever this dazed state it's in. As you can see...»

«... it must've been long driven mad from pain. Reminds you of the tricks from back home that could induce such an effect, doesn't it? Big brother.»

For two reasons. 1. This is the first time (iirc) in the story where Hong Lu doesn't reply and stays silent and seemingly uneasy; 2. The fact that this "dazed state" as it is described actually kind of reminds of Hong Lu's usual behavior a bit?

To elaborate, after her lines the attention was drawn back to the Priest, and his face was described as "serene". And who's facial expression was also described in a similar manner, precisely, with a literal synonym? Of course, Hong Lu, during the TKT Intervallo:

«The culprit wasn't the only one who suddenly began to behave strangely. Hong Lu did, too.»

«His face relaxed into a tranquil look, as though he was ready to let something go.

... Or perhaps... that was an express of liberation.»

And also to mention how the Priest started reminiscing similarly to how Hong Lu tells stories about his family (but idk, I'm afraid I am starting to reach even harder for this😭)

All in all, my theory, if you can call it that, is that perhaps those "tricks from back home" where actually performed on Hong Lu. This could potentially explain his constant aloofness, his reaction to Xichun's words (she brought up some of his traumatic memories?), and why exactly he has one of the most deranged IDs — because he has already been long driven mad from pain.

I really hope I worded this well enough, and I don't know if I sound like a lunatic or if I actually cooked something when I was thinking abt this at 2 am. And well, I'm also probably not the first one to think of this. But anyways, still thought this is worth bringing up!

Well, I hope you enjoy the Xichun Sin Analysis I just posted earlier then! That being said, there is something interesting I want to bring up with regards to this theory you pose, as it's tangentially related to the bits you reference and also it's been sitting in my head for a while now.

First point - I definitely agree that when Xichun brings up the "tricks" that can leave people in a similar state to the Priest, it's something Hong Lu has experienced himself.

We see Hong Lu has a tendency to avoid topics that bother him at all cost, like how he actively tries to redirect conversations in Hell's Chicken when he's being questioned regarding what he thinks could lead him into Distorting and when he senses Meursault is about to verbally lay into him. It's a tactic he employs very often as a distraction from the weirder things he says.

Interestingly enough, I believe Canto 7 is the first time we see Hong Lu avoid topics not through redirection, but through shutting down. That interaction you brought up isn't the first time in the Canto that he's rendered speechless either. In part 1, he's shown to respond with silence when both Rodya and Sinclair comment on their dislike of Xichun, being seemingly uncomfortable with the way they're talking about her.

And then there's a scene even earlier on in Part 1 that left a really, really major impression on me. Which. I can talk about now!

This, I believe, is the first time in Canto 7 where we see Hong Lu properly shut down in response to something. Something about what Xichun has said made him completely stop what he was doing earlier. His entire approach to the conversation changes in this moment. Earlier on he was excitedly asking questions, trying to give advice and gather information, but after this moment, Hong Lu is rendered completely passive, his lines being reduced to only responding to Xichun is saying in a very... honestly weird way.

It's not obvious in the transcript by itself, but his tone is... odd, compared to the way he was speaking earlier. In addition to that, every expression Hong Lu has during this conversation after this point are ones that actively have him not looking at Xichun, either using his closed eyes sprite or looking to the side sprite.

This moment struck me very, very heavily the first time I got to it in my plathrough. Part of it is because of the weird unnatural shift Hong Lu's behavior takes in this moment that I wasn't even consciously noticing until a reread. The other part is that the exact words Xichun says to Hong Lu that triggers this are ones that reminded me of something very specific in Dream of the Red Chamber.

There is a chapter fairly early on in Hong Lu's source novel that I can only describe as Bao-yu being verbally and emotionally abused by his father for the entire chapter. His father takes Bao-yu along as he shows off his garden to his acquaintances, and every time Bao-yu speaks up, whether by being prompted to or on his own, his father chastises him excessively. I don't remember the exact words, but the framing is pretty clear about the fact that Bao-yu's father sees his son's behavior as being a source of embarassment to himself in front of his acquaintances.

The kind of abuse shown in that chapter is downright stomach-churning in how realistically it is potrayed. It's genuinely upsetting and one of the main reasons I was unable to continue reading much further past that point.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Project Moon decided the thing that made Hong Lu have a shift in his behavior was being told him being himself is a cause of embarassment for someone else in his family. ...And I think Xichun's immediate reaction shows she realizes what is happening as well. It's very telling she doesn't bring up Hong Lu 'not getting better since the last time they've met' until this moment.

Because I don't think the thing he hasn't gotten better from is his upbeat, naive attitude. I believe it's his trauma response he's exhibiting right here. To become passive, downright submissive, and simply take everything that's being dealt to him without objections.

...Which segues nicely into the second point! Because the 'serene daze' shown on the Priest? The tranquility and peace Hong Lu exhibits in TKT, which is outright called out as strange by Dante? I believe it's the exact same as the trauma response I highlighted earlier. It's the immediate instinct to just lay down and take the pain because trying to fight back would only prolong the suffering.

The line about that expression being potentially "an express of liberation" is very telling. On the one hand, this Canto only further cements the fact that Hong Lu is just as passively suicidal as Yi Sang was before going through Canto 4. On the other, it directly ties back to Hong Lu potentially believing that the less resistance he shows, the sooner he'll be freed from suffering.

I already briefly went insane over the following line in a seperate post, but it feels extremely important to bring it up in here as well.

This line. This. Fucking. Line. Directly creates parallels between Oblivion and Naivete, drawing parallels between Donqui/Sancho and Hong Lu. And it's not that hard to see why.

We see that Donqui/Sancho's choice to embrace Oblivion, to completely try and erase her former identity and fall into a dream is motivated by her wishing to escape her reality, to stop thinking about the bloodshed and violence.

This line, and what we see of how Hong Lu acts throughout this Canto, is making it clear that Hong Lu's naive attitude, his constant willingness to assume the best of everyone around him, is just another part of his trauma response I've pointed out earlier.

It's how he escapes the violence he's been subjected to, the reality he's been living in. After all, the explanation he gives for why he wasn't afraid when the Time Killer tried to kill him... is because he understands why people want to hurt him. He didn't fight back when his siblings tried to kill him, because he knew why they would want to do that.

Because he tries to assume the best of everyone, tries to understand the reasons they do what they do, tries to be naively innocent, he's able to accept the pain and let it happen. Because if he can't, if he's forced to face none of what was done to him was justified... Well...

...This is where I would like to jump off and go on a tangent about my own theory. You see, you bring up the story the Priest starts telling to compare it to how Hong Lu acts with his anecdotes, but I think there's something much deeper going on with that story. Look at how the Priest begins it.

It's very clear the story he's telling is him directly comparing someone among the Sinners to Lorenzo, the Bloodfiend he's talking about. Dante's narration doesn't specify who the Priest means, as they only mentioned that "He looked at us", but it's clear from his words that he means a Single Specific Person here.

On my initial readthrough I assumed this was about Donqui, as this is her Canto after all, but... I no longer believe that's the case. In fact, I believe that the Sinner being used as a parallel to Lorenzo here is Hong Lu.

Let me give my evidence first.

One - We know the Priest, even in his daze, still recognizes Donqui as Sancho. The way he ends off his story says as much.

It's clear from his words and his actions that he's actively blaming Sancho for what happened to Lorenzo, and what he believes has happened to Cassetti as well. This would align with the feelings all of the named Kindreds we mett express towards her. So, to me at least, it's clear that the Priest wouldn't compare Sancho to Lorenzo in a way he has here.

Two - The framing of the scene and what follows later puts a lot of focus on Hong Lu.

Hong Lu is extremely present during this scene. Not only is the Priest compelled to share the story right after we see Hong Lu shut down at what Xichun has said, but the CG that follows his story inexplicably includes Hong Lu in it, listening intently.

And not only that, but soon after the Priest is taken away and Sansón tells another story, we get the moment of Donqui telling Dante she thinks it's Hong Lu's turn in the Golden Bough horrors.

If this were a game made by anyone else, I would take this as a self-aware joke pointing fun at how much focus Hong Lu has gotten in a Canto that's not his and move on. But this isn't anyone else.

This is Project Moon, who have a very Notable Track Record of hiding extremely important reveals and foreshadowing in one-off lines during comedic moments, especially in Limbus. See Canto 2 and Hell's Chicken. I genuinely believe the reason this joke exists here is to draw our attention not only to the parallels between Donqui/Sancho and Hong Lu, but also to the moments where Hong Lu is already the focus.

Three - The phrasing the Priest uses to refer to whoever he's comparing to Lorenzo.

The way he addresses this person and the rest of the group is very interesting, as there's emphasis put on his choice of the word "friends" to describe them. This feels important, as earlier on, in Part 1, Hong Lu himself denies Xichun's assessment that the Sinners are his faction, deliberately calling them his friends. Just like here the Priest calls the people accompanying the one he's directing the story at their friends.

So... what does that all mean for Hong Lu to be directly compared to Lorenzo? Well, let's take a quick look at what Lorenzo's story is.

Lorenzo is initially described as a Bloodfiend filled with positivity, to the point that the Priest thinks he didn't have anything to actually confess for. We see him think the way he's able to eat so many hemobars in one sitting as impressive, seeming completely oblivious to the the fact it's a clear sign the hemobars do nothing for Bloodfiends nutritionally.

This attitude completely changes however after Lorenzo tastes blood for the first time. He completely loses himself to obsession, spending hours licking a syringe just to be able to taste it. He completely loses his hope in the hemobars, having the drastic realization they do nothing, and lamenting how much longer he has to keep on living like this.

The story ends with the Priest remarking that after that shift, the only time he had seen Lorenzo genuinely happy was when he was about to be buried alive, when his head and brain were already completely decimated to the point he should be dead.

This... is already a lot.

Lorenzo's initial attitude, his positivity and naive belief that the hemobars are good despite the evidence to the contrary, are extremely close to how Hong Lu is right now. Upbeat, oblivious, always assuming the best of others. Hong Lu's passively suicidal tendencies could also track to Lorenzo's ending, how it's clear that Hong Lu is extremely willing to accept his own death.

...And then there's the whole middle of that story. There's a lot of different things this could be foreshadowing for Hong Lu's arc, but one thing is clear - he's not going to stay his upbeat self forever.

Every hint we've had about Hong Lu thus far. The implication he knows there's something that could make him distort all the way back in Hell's Chicken. The way we're told this Canto that Hong Lu's eye is dimming right after he comments how Donqui's twinkling eyes show she's "lucid", or living completely detached from reality. And then this, him being directly compared to a story of a Bloodfiend who upon finally being hit with reality begins to spiral and completely lose all his hope.

It all points to the idea that Hong lu will be forced to face his reality. To understand that his hemobars do jack shit and always have, that perhaps his family have never truly cared for him. And that realization could very well be the thing that finally breaks him.

I mean, his IDs already point to it, no? After all, Fanghunt Lu, possibly the most violent and deranged Hong Lu ID released thus far, one released alongside this part mind you, is shown to be actively thinking about and doubting the nature of family. "What even is a real family, I wonder?"

I'm just saying, if there's any Sinner who deserves to go utterly apeshit in their Canto, it would be Hong Lu. Let. My guy. Break Everything.

#ask #anon #lu speaketh #limbus company #hong lu lcb #canto 7 part 2 #canto 7 spoilers #canto 7 part 2 spoilers #lcb analysis #lcb speculation #im soooo normal

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applestorms · 22 days ago

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sebastian/ciel relationship dynamic breakdown (pt. 2)

For a clearer breakdown of what this post will entail, please read my little intro for part 1 (linked here). Also: this section will be covering the latter arcs of the series, so please pay EXTRA attention to the spoiler warning on this one. <33

SPOILER WARNING !! (obviously.) there is a lot of summary in this, albeit hopefully narrow/focused, and filtered through my own thoughts and analysis. be warned. this is also not inherently a ship post, though you may certainly read it as such. have fun 🫶

6. LUXURY LINER ARC: VACATION GRANTED

Backstory time!! :D This arc is delightful in that it provides us with some really clear insight into the greater trajectory of Sebastian and Ciel's relationship over the last few years, especially when it comes to showing just how far they've come since their first meeting. As Sebastian's memories show us, Sebastian was not always the hyper-competent butler we know and love today, and Ciel himself was not always as settled into his position as head of the Phantomhive House or Funtom. (We also get the incredible reveal that Sebastian was, in fact, named after Ciel's dead dog, which will never not be funny. <3)

The big thing here is the reinforcement of the fact that, as much as Sebastian and Ciel love to fuck around and get on each other's nerves, they have also put a lot of work into learning how to get along and function like a team. And they do! What's also neat about this flashback sequence is that it comes in the middle of an arc that is generally quite high-stakes and tense, action-heavy in a way that means both of them are consistently on high alert and not as inclined to fuck with one another since a Whole Lotta People's lives are on the line. Sebastian is really giving his all for most of this trip, and Ciel is cognizant of that enough to grant him quite a formal break. They care about each other!! Perhaps even to their mutual embarrassment at times, and not entirely without some level of selfish motivations on both sides-- but there is also clearly something deeper starting to be established by this point, at the very least a habit and instinct to collaborate that will not be easily broken, though whether or not it will stand up to any tests will have to wait for a later arc. (Hint, hint.)

But back to the flashback-- obviously, the juiciest part of this for SBCL specifically is the fact that this is the first time we explicitly see Sebastian try to test the limits of Ciel's dedication to his whole revenge plot. This is great for two reasons: first, it is one of the more notable pieces of evidence we get this early on about just how untrustworthy and scheming Sebastian can be, as well as what his instincts are like as a demon, and second, it reinforces Ciel's unwavering dedication to their contract. For the latter point in particular, this is the first arc to really show some notable Ciel character development in this sense, which is important as this unwavering dedication to his revenge is obviously going to play a massive role in some of the next few arcs.

sidenote1: With regards to motivations, you could maybe argue that this is just Sebastian getting sick of his job or even Ciel and wanting to punch out early, but considering how much he seems to enjoy his whole butler cosplay schtick later on, I'm not as inclined to agree with this interpretation. Personally, I think a more interesting take on this is that Sebastian is reverting back to what he knows about humans from previous contracts, that they are selfish, power-hungry, and greedy for money and romance/sex, and applying that to Ciel to try and push at his limits and see if he'll take the bait, only to be caught off guard when Ciel defies him and doubles down on his original intention. At this point in the story Sebastian is, at the very least, still dedicated to the idea that Ciel's soul is going to be this drawn out, slow-cooked gourmet meal that will totally rock his shit, and he wants to be Certain that his initial prospecting was correct. This is new for both of them!

Ultimately, this arc as a whole functions as reinforcement: of Sebastian and Ciel's growth in their relationship, of their respective dedication towards Ciel's protection and revenge, and of their capacity to work as a team under stressful circumstances. It is certainly not perfect, and this connection will be tested in the future-- but for now, they've got other shit to worry about.

7. PUBLIC SCHOOL ARC: UNDERTAKER STRIKES BACK

Unfortunately for our purposes, this is the arc in which Sebastian and Ciel seem to interact directly the least, largely because they are once again forced to play distinct teacher/student roles and dedicate most of their meetings to scheming meaning that we're mostly back to just watching SBCL working at peak cooperation, with Sebastian once again bending to Ciel's will even if it means a ton of extra work for him (lol). That being said, there's still a lot of gay shit happening more generally at Weston, and we notably have one major moment between Sebastian and Ciel at the very end of the arc, which points at another idea I wanted to discuss:

If there is One (1) Thing in this entire series that makes it the most clear Sebastian and Ciel's relationship is the core of the story upon which all else revolves, it is the fact that Undertaker is the series' primary villain. Or rather, to put this the other way around: Undertaker himself makes it clear that Sebastian and Ciel's relationship is the central by constantly threatening to snatch Ciel away and break the two of them up.

This threat was clearly established by Undertaker in the last arc, and it becomes Very relevant yet again in some of the most recent arcs, but it's the brevity of the scene in this particular arc that causes me to view it like a kind of microcosm of these three's dynamic throughout the entire story. UT really doesn't do much once his identity is revealed during the tea party-- other than talking, his only notable action is to reinforce himself as a threat to Sebastian by proving, which he manages to do without even actually doing much other than anticipating the situation so that he can position himself closer to Ciel than Sebastian is. It's a very slick, subtle move, but one that Sebastian picks up on and hates.

It's because of this that I actually kinda view this scene as more fundamental to establishing UT as KURO's primary/endgame antagonist than his reveal as a shinigami in the last arc, as this proves that UT is someone who is dangerous, calculating, and capable of fucking up Sebastian to a previously-unseen degree. Quite impressive, really.

Notable as well is the fact that this approach to exploiting Sebastian's weakness (namely, Ciel) is not without its precursor either-- as I mentioned back in P1, Ciel himself even uses this weak point to his advantage, putting his own health and safety at risk due to his own stubborn determination during the Circus arc. For all his overpowering strength, his one greatest desire is also his most obvious soft spot, and the biggest players in this game are very much aware of that fact.

8. EMERALD WITCH ARC: OH MAN.

Oh, man.

I'm gonna try to keep the recency bias off of this one if I can since the anime is currently still coming out at the time of writing this, but OH FUCKIN' MAN. Two big things for this one: tentacles, and trust.

To start with the tentacles: hey, remember in P1 when I mentioned Sebastian and Ciel's close connection and dedication getting tested? This is that-- or more specifically, a kind of internal test served from Sebastian to Ciel, to check and see whether or not he still has the same kind of Dedication that he originally had to their contract. This is obviously also quite similar to his initial testing of Ciel's will right after his meeting with the queen as seen in the LLA, though with notably quite different circumstances: now Sebastian isn't just fucking with Ciel, not just testing him or trying to see if he'll adhere to his preconceived notions of what humans usually act like/want, but rather trying to see if this will be the thing that breaks him. He seems to be genuinely disappointed by Ciel's reversion and inability to break out of his trauma, taking to extreme measures to either ensure he gets his meal or, hopefully, break Ciel out of it.

Which he does!! To the great relief of basically everybody involved. And not only that, but we come out of this with an important reinforcement of not only Ciel's commitment to their contract and his revenge, but a valuable gloss on his claim to revenge-- a clarification of his pledge, that he is getting revenge for himself and nobody else. Ciel is grieving, but he recognizes that the dead will never return. His relationship with Sebastian is thus one that benefits him for himself and for himself alone, and nobody else will ever get in the way of that. This is Ciel regaining his self-confidence, his trust in himself, and growing closer to Sebastian because of it.

Thus: at the end of this arc, when Ciel says that Sebastian is, "the one he can trust the least," I really do believe that he is being truthful. He doesn't trust Sebastian, or at least not without some caution-- he is not nearly foolish enough to put his full faith into the monster trying to eat him, and (as we shall very soon see) hasn't been since the very beginning. They are closer now, certainly, but that is due in no small part to Ciel's trust in his own abilities to use Sebastian as he pleases and exploit his weakness (himself) to get what he wants.

The irony of this is that, overall, I think Sebastian and Ciel's relationship does have a greater positive impact on Ciel, on his self-confidence and strength and his ability to regain his agency after having it so viciously ripped away from him. Ciel doesn't want a strong, capable hero to save him, not after all that has happened to him by the time he and Sebastian finally meet-- he wants power and vengeance, the strength to stand on his own legs, and Sebastian, intentionally or not, gives him that. And it's that soft undercurrent of their relationship that paints their relationship in a much more interested, nuanced light than the surface level observation of "evil demon preying on a traumatized child," that is still true, but doesn't quite capture the full picture.

9. MUSIC HALLS ARC: PEEKING OVER THE EDGE

This arc once again features a mostly submissive Sebastian, with a majority of the emphasis falling on Ciel while he gets his shit freaked. Lots of this perhaps comes from the fact that the PSA kids are back, meaning that the cast of somewhat major characters is once again quite large and spends a lot more time bouncing around, setting up some of the REALLY major shit that's right on the verge of being revealed. Most of the pressure is either on Ciel or about to be, so their relationship specifically isn't under enough tension to be tested again in any major ways just yet. There are still some minor moments of friction, of course, but none that really feel character-defining like in the previous few arcs-- the story is foreshadowing a lot here, with tensions from the last 100+ chapters rising, but not quite tipping over the edge... until the end, anyway. When it comes to interactions with other characters, Sebatian and Ciel are pretty in sync this arc, falling back into a more typical dynamic as they team up to train and terrorize their new boy band.

That being said, there is ONE slight exception to this, and that is the slight interlude we get with the Halloween chapter (approximately chapter 119.5), which is one of my favorite specials so I must ramble about it at least a little. As a reminder, here's the last few pages:

I just love this. The symbolism!! THE SYMBOLISM!!! I know I just went on a whole spiel in the last part about how Ciel doesn't trust Sebastian without question, and I still do believe that, but this does point to the fact that Ciel does have some assurance in Sebastian's ability to keep himself safe for as long as it takes to get his revenge. Functionally he believes in him, at least enough to light the way forward, and even to snuff out that flame when the appropriate time does come. Fates intertwined, etc. etc. etc.

The symbolism of Sebastian putting Ciel in a devil costume is also Very intriguing to me, though I'm not entirely sure that I have one clear answer for it. While it is in part just a very funny costume for Ciel to wear, I can't help but feel like there is some kind of greater meaning behind it-- Sebastian's mutual influence on Ciel, perhaps? Grooming him into something more like him, even as Ciel willingly hands over his life and affects him just as much? It seems obvious to me that something a whole lot Bigger than just the contract has been coagulating in the deeper bond between these two, but I'm not entirely confident that I can place the specific nuances of what that is just yet. And looking at Sebastian's face in that second to last page... I'm not entirely sure that either of them have the words to place exactly what it is either.

sidenote2: Could this be interpreted as romantic? Almost certainly-- but it is the nuances within that which interests me most here. How much do they actually trust each other, and how aware are they of this? They're clearly pretty codependent-- but are they themselves even willing to recognize this? When does the predator/prey relationship end, when do the master/servant roles stop, and where do they begin to legitimately care for and respect one another? As we see in the most recent arcs, there is still plenty of room for their relationship to be tested, for the limits of what they are/aren't willing to admit to be put in conflict with what they want above all else. Their conclusion is still a ways off, I guess is my main point here.

10. BLUE MEMORY ARC: LEASHING THE DOG

Sebastian is fucking FERAL in this arc and it is so unbelievably incredibly hot narratively interesting. This entire section has some of the absolute BEST interactions between any two characters in the entire series, istg. Easily my favorite section in the whole entire comic. They're unbeatable. Incomparable. Unmatched meet cute at the demon summoning ritual. What if I was next in line to be sacrificed on the altar, and you were the devil who showed up to snag my twin brother's soul 👉👈 tee hee hee!!1 :3 Soulmate behavior. I'm getting sick to my fucukging stomach just thinking about it oh mgygoddd sedate me >__< (ok not yet i need to finish writing this BUT STILL)

There's just Something about being able to see some of the earliest interactions between Sebastian and Ciel here, to see the stage how it was originally set, that really makes so many of their later interactions that much more fascinating. Like I really cannot emphasize enough how delightful it is to see such an unhinged side to Sebastian from before he was collared and domesticated, back when he was still a liar and a monster and not quite settled into the fact that they were going to be playing the long game. And on the other end, it is wildly impressive seeing Ciel actively in the process of figuring out how to chain Sebastian down-- not falling for the lure of endless power or wealth or whatever other sins Sebastian might like to pull him into, but rather solidifying his first pass at the whole "revenge" idea and figuring out how to limit Sebastian's power so as to better harness it for himself, rather than going the more typical Faustian route of trying to get so much power it immediately bites him in the ass.

One of the most intriguing aspects of some of these flashbacks to me personally is also seeing just how quickly Ciel undergoes his outward personality shift from the shy, sickly, anxious kid that he was as a young boy, stuck back in his role as The Spare, the one stuck inside, to the more sullen and aggressive "Earl Ciel Phantomhive," that we see in the present day. He really does feel like a whole other person after Everything that happens, an amalgamation of intentional changes to try and appear more like his brother to fit his new identity as the confident, capable, outspoken one and the natural shifts that come with his trauma and grief and complete loss of faith, all of which is very much mediated by the new, constant presence of a certain demon butler lurking right over his shoulder.

Similar to EWA, what I further really appreciate about this arc is the way in which it sets up Sebastian as something legitimately dangerous, as one of the biggest, most powerful threats in the series that is absolutely dying to sink his teeth into Ciel. This is easily one of the most openly manipulative Sebastian's we get in the series, really the only time we ever get to see him lie outright to Ciel's face, and it establishes the tension between them perfectly, calling back to their spider couple games in the earliest chapters. Honestly, while it's pretty easy to read both Sebastian and Ciel as the protagonists of KURO, it is also wonderfully easy to read Sebastian as the "true" antagonist and Ciel the primary protagonist-- and ultimately it's the tension between those two sides that keeps the story rolling.

This is also one of the most clearly we hear Ciel speak in reference to the underlying lack of respect that he has for himself, and what I read as his thinly veiled suicidal tendencies. In this arc in particular, Ciel really gives me the vibes of a kind of mundane self-hatred, one that is not necessarily actively self-destructive or even very overt or noticeable to the people around him, but more along the lines of a simple acceptance of himself as something lesser. As is hopefully clear by this point, I really do view Ciel's self-confidence as a key aspect of not only his own individual arc but his relationship with Sebastian and their mutual development as well. It's why the twin reveal is so crucial to understanding who o!Ciel is as a person, imo-- from the very start of our story, o!Ciel has been living under the assumption that he can only ever have power or agency or receive love as his brother, that his own existence is one that can disappear and be swept away without excess grief from the people who remembered him. What his relationship with Sebastian reveals, and really everybody he meets and connects with who isn't attached to his Phantomhive Past, is that this absolutely is NOT the case. For better and for worse, o!Ciel is the one that Sebastian picked-- and, as UT so loves to point out, his life is not replaceable.

sidenote3: Agni. :( Can't let this post go without talking about his passing at least a little, particularly considering all of the parallels between those two couples that I discussed in P1. In particular, it's the parallels between him and Ciel that really gets to me here, and the ways in which we might view his death in conjunction with the sword of Damocles that has been hanging over Ciel's head for this entire series' run... Probably gonna talk about this more in another post on all the master/butler relationships in the series, actually, but the big thing here for me is comparing Soma's reaction to Agni's passing, and specifically Agni dying for Soma, to protect him, to the distinctly more predatory and cannibalistic dynamic that SBCL have going on.

sidenote4: Additionally, after re-watching the ending of S1, I've been struck by the thought that I seriously doubt the ending of the manga will look very much like the ending of either S1 or S2. Like, on a surface level I wouldn't be surprised if there were some similar aesthetic elements or if the greater set-up had echoes of either ending, but I just don't think that a direct recreation of S1's ending would hit the same or even work at all with how the story currently looks. S1 Ciel just feels like such a wildly different person to current-manga Ciel, in his relationships w/ other characters alone if not his underlying core personality. S1 Ciel can drop himself off a bridge, sit quietly on a bench, and let Sebastian easily chow down on his soul. But current manga Ciel? Current manga Sebastian? I don't think it will be nearly as easy, and I'm inclined to keep a sharp eye out for any further developments in Soma's reaction to Agni's passing in particular for the potential parallels it may present to SBCL.

11. BLOOD SPLIT ARC (current): THE FINAL TESTS

This whole section is interesting in that we get another experience of SBCL that feels a LOT like when we took Arthur's POV back in the Manor Murders, only now it happens a couple times in succession with Mey-Rin, Bard, and (a little bit of) Snake's backstories. We are also largely relegated to seeing Sebastian and Ciel purely through these backstories, with very little to no insight into the present-day actions (until very recently, anyway) which is quite different to the kind of masked performance they were doing way back in Murder.

What's fascinating about these depictions to me is just how much Sebastian and Ciel are idolized and practically deified in the eyes of their servants, standing as this image of some kind of unbreakable power couple that certainly gets up to some questionable shit, but is also to a degree untouchable to anybody else. It's actually been somewhat strange for me to see them interacting normally again in the most recent chapters after months and months of seeing them through this lens of the eyes of the people they saved, returning to the usual antics but with the lingering flavor of their mutual overwhelming power still present at the back of my tongue. Since very little time has actually passed in-universe over the last few years there isn't much to sink my teeth into with this section in terms of Insane Developments in their relationship-- instead, I feel left with this distinct thought of just how simultaneously loved and isolated Sebastian and Ciel are together.

Since Sebastian's true nature seems to (miraculously, frankly) still be basically unknown to every other character in the series, save for the shinigami + Arthur + whatever other humans they happen to be terrorizing at any given moment, those two are somewhat uniquely situated in the sense that they are the only ones who really seem to Get what's happening between them. Of course, everybody picks up on the closeness, on the deep bond and apparent trust that is undeniably between the two of them, but the true depths of their codependency and the nature of their contract seems to confine them away from most other characters. Naturally, Undertaker comes closest to figuring it out, but as I think we're likely to see in the upcoming chapters, even he doesn't seem to fully Get It either (or at the very least is biased by his own desires/feelings surrounding the Phantomhives).

SO. Speaking, of... where is all of this going, anyways?

I'm certain there are things that will come out surprise me about this series as we begin descending into the final stretches of this manga's run, but if I had to list my suspicions/thoughts/questions surrounding where I think the story is likely to go, considering everything that has come thus far (and still staying centered on SBCL), it would look something like this:

o!Ciel has still not yet fully dealt with the fundamental insecurity at the center of his psyche: the idea that he is inherently lesser than his brother. As delighted as I am by his adamant refusal to give up the title of "Earl Ciel Phantomhive," there's some deeper shit there that he's still not addressing. This is not at all to say that I think he needs to go back to using his old/birth name or some shit (frankly, it's more of the opposite)-- but if he really is committing to the "Ciel Phantomhive" route, I think he still has a ways to go when it comes to defining that name for himself, to take his power and agency as the Ciel Phantomhive that he wants to be, and not as some dubious stand-in for someone that he thinks better of.

Sebastian has not solidified his commitment to their contract in the same way that Ciel continually has. I feel like this is going to be the most relevant when it comes to whatever shit Mr. Modri Vladis starts digging back up with regards to Sebastian's past-- clearly, there is something Different about this current contract for Sebastian, and I don't think he's fully processed that yet. Personally, I don't really doubt that Sebastian is still perfectly capable of chowing down on Ciel the second his time comes, dude's been blueballing himself out of that meal for literally almost 20 real life years by this point, but how is he actually going to feel about it? Will he hesitate? Will he regret it? He may not have a past in the same way as the humans of this story, but what is his side to all of this? Who is he, if not the Earl Phantomhive's butler?

AAAAAAAAARRAHAURAGHHG YANA-SENSEI PLEASE. PLEASE. I don't even know what I'm begging for at this point. Just Please. Where are these bitches gonna end up, I still feel like I Just Don't Know. I really do think that Ciel is gonna get eaten. But the specifics of how, and why, and when, I'm really not sure I can tell. Regardless, as I said in my little sidenote for the Memory Arc, I really don't think it can be quite so straightforward as it was at the end of S1 by this point-- the connections, the blood, it all runs too deep now. None of this is going to be easy.

We're in the midst of Some Shit now. The story is clearly picking back up, the plot moving forward as we start to near the point where these bloodlines converge, back to the perspective of the two Big Ones. Frankly, I don't think I have any real fuckin' idea where this shit is actually going to end up. But fuck if I'm not excited out of my mind to find out >w<

#astronaut rambles #kuroshits #black butler #kuroshitsuji #sebaciel #AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. locked tf in and finished this at last 👍everybody clap #does my ciel bias come thru in this one?? i feel like it does lol #also also do u like my title of 'blood split' for the current arc. cuz they split up to get all the blood #<33 i'm gonna use that forever and ever sorry it sounds way cooler than blue revenge #^__^ yay okay onto my many many other projects lolol #ciel phantomhive #sebastian michaelis

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lisdens · 5 months ago

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CAITVI & honesty

so we know a major factor for caitvi's breakup in episode 3 happens to be the lack of honesty between caitlyn and vi. let's talk about it for a minute while also using this opportunity to answer the big question:

would caitlyn eventually tell vi about jinx being alive?

during act one both caitlyn and vi make promises they can't keep, wether it's out of love, fear, or sense of responsibility, and this severely damages their dynamic.

why? because caitlyn and vi's entire relationship was built on honesty. being honest (as vi says during her conversation with ambessa) is one of the pilars for trust, and if they can't trust each other, their dynamic no longer works.

when vi opens up about her fear of caitlyn changing (becoming a 'monster' in her eyes), she's so deep in denial that she fails to realize the fact that caitlyn has already changed.

caitlyn believes her mother's death was a direct consequence of her inaction; she held her shot because of her love for vi, and consequently vi's love for jinx.

she can't let go of jinx, not yet. but if she doesn't keep vi close, she fears vi will go back to her sister so her response to vi's plead is 'i won't', which could mean:

- 'i promise i won't change'

- 'i won't promise that'

she's not being honest, ergo, she's breaking vi's trust.

now with vi, we know she believes herself responsible for jinx's crimes (as she says in episode one: 'i created the monster'), so she agrees to hunt her down with caitlyn in attempt to repay the city for her sister's mistakes.

the thing is, vi can't kill jinx. no matter how guilty she may feel, jinx is still her little sister and vi, under no circumstances, would harm her family. she loves jinx, but her internal guilt makes her agree to hunt her down to kill her.

she's promising caitlyn something she knows she can't do, ergo, she's breaking caitlyn's trust.

fast forward few months later caitlyn's conversation with singed ('why does anyone commit acts others deem unspeakable? for love') and vi's reunion with vander's new form (consequently making vi accept the fact that people can and will change, and that is okay) create a better environment for caitlyn and vi to revisit their relationship.

our pookies are ready to meet up again.

but--BUT--the conditions have changed; vi's family comes first, and if caitlyn wants to have her back, she has to accept her terms. vi agreed to caitlyn's way of approaching things during act one, now it's her turn to call the shots.

just like when they first met, it's caitlyn who has to earn vi's trust. why? because caitlyn was the one to hurt vi, and vi deserves to be fought for, instead of the other way around.

and how does she earn that trust back?

there's two things (the first being obvious one, the other being more subtle, in my opinion) caitlyn does:

we, as the audience, know that by the time their argument takes place vi has already forgiven caitlyn (she even calls her cait again), but we still have the elephant in the room: can caitlyn let go of jinx?

caitlyn's love for vi is bigger than her obsession for revenge, so yes, she can.

that is the first point.

there's lots of analysis on that one so i have no interest in talking further about it. instead, i want to focus on the second one, which will also answer our original enquiry.

vi knows all the crimes caitlyn has committed, it's public knowledge and there are literal banners with her face hanged all around zaun.

(i'd also like to point out ambessa's incredible strategy to make caitlyn the face of the government while still being the one doing most of the action; the moment she no longer needed caitlyn, she could've easily discarded her without facing any consequence herself. really smart woman, one of my favorite characters.)

caitlyn knows vi knows, but it's important that vi knows every little detail about what caitlyn's been doing during their time apart. why? because caitlyn genuinely wants to earn her trust back, and she can't do that if she's not being a hundred percent honest.

she cleared the way for jinx to escape with the knowledge that she may not see vi ever again (and she's fine with that) but the moment vi starts kissing her, she stops her to confess the one thing vi's unaware about.

and we see how nervous she feels when telling her about maddie, caitlyn repeatedly fails to hold vi's gaze because of it. but she tells her because she wants to be honest. and if vi decides to stop things, then so be it.

their dynamic doesn't work when there's secrets between them; if caitlyn wants vi back, she has to make sure it's without any barriers, otherwise they'll hurt each other again.

and what is vi's response to it?

vi has kept a firm grip on the past since she came out of prison, always clinging to the things that no longer exist and can't be changed. can she change the fact that caitlyn was seeing someone?

no, but she's learning to come to terms with the fact that things happen and sometimes she doesn't have control over them, and that's not her fault.

so yes, she doesn't fucking care.

to answer the big, final question; yes, caitlyn will, at some point and having enough proof of it, tell vi about jinx.

caitlyn and vi have learned from past mistakes and rebuilding their relationship will take effort, but honesty--trust--is the first step in the right direction.

#arcane #vi arcane #caitvi #caitlyn kiramman #league of legends #violet arcane #jinx arcane #jinx league of legends #my analysis #arcane analysis

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moldybonessmell · 10 months ago

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"Deadpool and Wolverine": queercoding analysis of Poolverine in the movie

// SPOILERS

//Disclaimer: This is NOT a hate post to Vanessa/Wade shipp, but if you ship them, this post is probably not for you.

I've seen a few queerbaiting allegations and, frankly, don't agree with them. Now I'll explain why.

Starting with the fact that movie begins as a typical reasoning for a character to get a new love interest: we find out Wade and Vanessa broke up after roughly 7-8 years together.

Either we don't know (or I just don't remember lol) for how long they've been separate, but it was enough time for Vanessa to get in a new relationship.

And we know that the reason for this breakup is the core differences between the two. In the previous movie they wanted to get a child and Wade's entire motivation was based around Vanessa. In this movie tho, it seems like even if Wade is still not completely over breakup, he seems to be compliant with the fact they are not together anymore. You would expect Wade to go and do something silly to Nessa's new guy, but he doesn't. He respects her decidion.

Wade has more of an existentioal crisis than just hurting from the breakup. So I would assume he's not over because he feels like he messed up and keeps giving sad puppy eyes holding on this romantic relationship with Vanessa. Tho they are still soulmates and friends no matter what.

I don't know about you, but for me this exposition doesn't look like a foreshadowing of Vanessa and Wade getting back together. Vanessa is happy and self-actualised on her own, even if Wade is not.

I don't see Wade trying to change as an act of trying to get back with Vanessa. He reacts like this because his family member pointed out his flaws.

Secondly, the only other "hints" for a relationship between Wade and Vanessa is him remembering how they kissed and in the end Vanessa holding Wade's hand. Which, let me point out, is not a typical trope to show characters are back together. You know what's typical? A KISS! Which never happened btw.

Not to be this person, but we all know Disney/Marvel haven't got the balls to show a canon queer relationship. So the only "hints" for Vanessa/Wade seem to either read as platonic, or purely as an attempt of Disney to be like !look! female love interest!.

Now, other important part. If you really think about it, referencing the first part of the post, the movie follows an enemies-to lovers romantic movie formula:

(optional) breakup with previous partner;

annoyance first (previous deadpool movies);

admiration upon actual meeting (even if Wade acts cocky, when you listen to him telling the story about how his universe's Logan saved Laura, you can clearly see he adores the hero, who, as we know, is relatively similar throughout multiverse. Wade knows this Logan has the same morals as other ones, hearing how he regrets not being able to help his x-men);

"having to" go on an adventure/quest together even tho they are annoyed at each other;

enemies bickering and fighting because they have differences (which are actually similarities between the two which drive them insane when they see this mirroring);

the breaking point and confrontation (the Logan monologue in the car scene);

*the close proximity tention* hate fucking as a spicy way to get over the argument (in the car scene they are shown to fight just for the sake of letting out steam);

the cold period when characters ignore each other because they are still pissed (when Laura got the two to her base);

getting over it and working together, trusting that the other got their back;

saving the world with the power of love brotherhood with romantic soundtrack on;

both staying alive and having a heart-to-heart conversation;

one wants to leave, but the other stops them (usually it would be followed up with a kiss but oh well);

officially meeting a parental figure of one of the characters and moving in together as in an established relationship.

I don't think I'm delusional if I say I haven't seen brotherhood media (ones without queerbaiting or actual siblings) that would follow this formula. But I did see romantic storylines.

All in all, Wade and Logan go through a development and establishment of a relationship. And I'm not even talking about the obvious "one being there when other lost everything and giving them a new family and home".

In the movie there are so many romantic tropes of these CANONICALLY QUEER CHARACTERS, which make it safe to assume that queercoding is in fact happening. I would argue about it if both of them were straight in the source material, but this is the best and most important part, they are not :)

And this is why "Deadpool & Wolverine" is actually a romcom. Thank you for reading!

#logan howlett #wolverine #deadpool #wade wilson #deadpool x wolverine #poolverine #deadpool and wolverine

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ghouljams · 1 month ago

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Idk honestly I could probably write a really in depth analysis on the prevalence of the blue/brown eyed Ghost debate, and what it means in terms of fandom politics especially when coupled with whether Ghost is a natural blond or a brunet, but I doubt anyone wants to hear about the political implications of people pushing most popular character in the series as aryan...

well, i for one would absolutely love to hear about it, but to be fair my degree is in media studies so fork found in kitchen

but tbh is it surprising that this kind of discourse (along with the whole Gaz “not being interesting enough” bs) is a prevalent discussion in a military propaganda game fandom? probably not lol

i also agree with your take that his eyes are brown as part of his character development and that it feeds into the complexity of the dynamics between them

anyway, don’t feel pressured to talk more about it if you don’t feel like it, just wanted to let you know that at least one person would read all of it lol

Much love!!

- Morph

Ghoul thoughts under the cut because I love media analysis and rambling

You hit the nail on the head by bringing up the Gaz "not being interesting" bullshit in relation to this entire thing because I absolutely see the crux of the brown vs blue eyed Ghost debate being a debate over which eye color is "better" which has inherently racist roots.

And as an immediate disclaimer: I am not saying that headcanoning Ghost with blue eyes makes you racist, I am not saying that headcanoning Ghost as blond makes you racist. I am simply pointing out that the way we view certain traits has been and will be filtered through a lens which requires an examination of our own values/beliefs.

It is so intensely interesting to me that in a fandom with a history of racial exclusion, for a media property that upholds whiteness as the pinnacle of virtue, that upholds western ideals and values as the height of moral purity, that places the good guys in a position where they can do NO WRONG despite having a higher torture rate than the bad guys, that a faceless character would be arbitrarily assigned blue eyes and blond hair despite textual/in game evidence to the contrary (yes there is evidence).

Now maybe I am just sensitive to certain things because I paid attention in school and know what a dog whistle sounds like, maybe that's all this is. However, within a fandom that seems to cater so hard to white women and has racist bullshit popping up every other week, I think... maybe we should examine why we want Ghost to have blue eyes.

I find that with faceless characters headcanons always exist within the hopes of making them more attractive. The idea that they would be ugly under the mask is antithetical to the wish fulfilment of fandom, so it makes sense that people would come up with a face for them. But then why are so many faceless characters made into skinny white blonds? Surely people would want some diversity- oh no, wait...

So we make Ghost blond. Alright, I mean he was a brunet in the comics and in the one scene where we see him take his mask off he's got dark hair, but I guess there were too many people with dark hair on the 141 already, so we gotta mix in a blond. But then why the blue eyes? He has blue eyes in the '09 comic, but in every cutscene we see in the '22 remake his eyes are brown. There's already two members of the 141 with blue eyes, so we don't need another one for diversity. So then why give Ghost blue eyes? If you want him to be closer to the '09 version why make him blond as well?

It's because people want to make him attractive, and in the dominant racial zeitgeist blue eyes are attractive. Which... I mean do I need to ask why? It's because they're a white european trait and people still hold white features as the attractive ones. Same with the blond hair. That's why WW2 Germany designated Blond hair and Blue eyes as the "true German" traits and created a whole class for them "aryan."

So what are the political implications of creating an aryan character out of the most popular character in the series (one who has minimal voice lines and minimal canon backstory in the reboot) within a fandom that regularly disregards/ignores the main black character? It's the continued upholding of whiteness and a specific kind of whiteness as more valuable than others. I'm not even going to say more valuable than blackness, I would say more valuable than other white traits. Why are blue eyes more attractive than brown eyes? Because they're more "white." Why is blond hair more attractive than brown? Because it's more "white." Why is a blond haired blue eyed Ghost such a popular headcanon despite evidence to the contrary? Because he's more white that way.

Now I like blond haired Ghost. I think it's an interesting addition to the color pallet of the team, and I like that it makes him look more like a ghost to be so washed out. But I think fandom has a habit of following what becomes popular within head canon spaces and making it fandom canon, and so many of us don't examine why a headcanon might pop up. Where did Ghost having blond hair come from? When did we all decide that was what we were going with? Why is it even a debate whether or not he has blue or brown eyes, and why does it matter?

If I said right now that Ghost 100% in canon of the '22 game has brown hair and brown eyes, would people get mad at me? And why? Why would it matter if he had brown hair and brown eyes? Does that make him less attractive? Why? Why does it matter? Why do you want him to have blond hair and blue eyes? Why do you care? What is the difference between blue and brown that makes it so important? For God's sake look at the societal conditioning that you've been put through! Why does it "make more sense" for him to have blue eyes if he's blond? Why?

Every single idea we have of what is and isn't attractive has been designed for us by the society we live in. Consider what ideals are being upheld when deciding that the "hot" character is blond and blue eyed while also discarding the black character. Being anti-racist and dismantling your own racial biases is a long and constant process, but it is so vitally important. And once we start examining those biases all sorts of shit starts popping up.

And before someone comes in and tells me it isn't that deep: maybe you should look at why you need it to not be that deep, does it make you uncomfortable to think that you might be feeding into these biases without realizing? And who does it benefit to have it not be "that deep" is there perhaps a group of people that would want you to not examine your preference for blue eyes and blond hair? Some sort of brotherhood perhaps...

#ghoul speaks #media analysis #this is coming from someone with blond hair and blue eyes #like I'm not just being a jealous and vindictive bitch here #obviously you can headcanon characters however you want #but also maybe we should take the time to consider why we want them to be a certain way #or why we are more attracted to certain features over others

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msunitedstatesjames · 3 months ago

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I'm sure I'm gonna be preaching to the choir on this one, Tumblr gamers being who they are, but I don't use any other social media where discourse is really a thing, so here we are. Mild Kingdom Come Deliverance II spoilers incoming.

On other social media platforms, I continue to see people criticize the Henry/Hans romance option, primarily by saying that it is unrealistic and makes no sense. I wanted to address that because personally I felt it to be highly realistic. A couple of disclaimers here, I'm not an expert on the 1400s, nor am I gay or bisexual. But I do have a background in literary analysis, and examining characters and stories in video games isn't so different from doing it in books.

I've seen some people claim that Hans couldn't possibly canonically have feelings for Henry because Hans is based on a real person. I'll address this one first because it's such a patently ridiculous argument. My dudes, I hate to break it to you, but most of the specific details of in game Hans were designed for a video game. I think it's safe to say that every interaction and relationship and event he goes through in the games isn't necessarily a true reflection of the real-life Hans' lived experiences.

I guess, other than that, I really can't understand what people thought was unrealistic about their romance option. Yes, it would have been forbidden and considered one of the greatest moral trespasses of the time. Yes, the punishment for such an act would mostly have been extreme, possibly castration, possibly being burned at the stake. And yet, real people in Europe in the middle ages still had same sex relationships. We know they did because we have real historical information about people being punished for that very reason. On top of that, there have been a number of nobles who were strongly rumored to have same sex relationships, which isn't the same as proof I guess, but it's not exactly the sort of thing you would openly write about in letters to your pals, not when it was a risk to your life. And I hope we can all agree that people interested in same sex relationships always existed, even if they couldn’t be open about it and didn't have the words for it that we have now.

I guess some people are more likely to say that it didn't make sense based on the specific natures of the characters involved. And honestly, I also don't really buy that one. I'm really not sure which aspects of their characters make it impossible or unlikely for them to have romantic feelings for one another.

It's certainly canon that Hans at least is pretty unconcerned about Christian morality. He's out there committing pretty major sins on the regular and is entirely unrepetant. He gets drunk, has unmarried sex, has sex for fun rather than for reproduction, is lustful, is too proud, and even breaks purely human laws such as poaching (though maybe you don't count that one since he is a noble). He loves doing anything he considers fun or thrilling, anything that will relieve his boredom, and he rarely takes into consideration the risks or consequences of such actions. I have no problem at all believing he would be willing to risk having sex with a man under the right circumstances, if only because it would be different and exciting, and I can't imagine circumstances more conducive to this possibility than the circumstances in this game, but we'll get to that later.

As for Henry, unless you play him as a very specific, extremely moral type, I think he's not a whole lot more strictly moral than Hans. Henry can get up to pretty much all the same things as Hans, and unless you're really careful with your choices, he still gets up to things that you don't intend. I play pretty much "in universe moral" characters in RPGs, but even my Henry occasionally steals, loots, gets drunk, and has sex. Some of that was by choice, some was just the result of cutscenes that happened with certain quests. At his strictest, I would say Henry is still at least passively accepting of "immorality" purely based on his friendship with Hans, who drags Henry into his shenanigans more often than not. So I don't think it's impossible for him to have romantic or sexual interest in Hans either, at least based on morality.

I also don't think the nature of their friendship precludes the possibility of a romantic or sexual entaglement. Some people argue that they're just close male friends, and if that's how you play your Henry then that's true, but the nature of their friendship doesn't make it impossible for any other kind of feelings to exist between them in character arcs different from yours. I would say it's pretty generally accepted that by the end of the 2nd game, Henry and Hans certainly love each other in one meaning of the word at least. Obviously they have the love of two extremely close friends. They've been through hell together, and they've both directly risked their lives to save each other when they could easily have left the other to die. You don't often do that for people that you don't love. But loving each other as friends doesn't mean they can't love each other in a romantic way as well, or least have an attraction to each other. Lots of real life couples or sexual partners have started out as friends, and even those that didn't still often consider their partner to be their best friend. So I don't see friendship as something that excludes the possibility of love or sex. (Not to mention the multiple real life examples of soldiers who have fought together, grown close through thier struggles, and eventually ended up growing into some form of sexual or romantic relationship.)

I've listed some of the reasons I don't find their romance to be unrealistic, now let me tell you some of the reasons I do find it realistic and well done.

I've already mentioned that if the circumstances were right, I have no problem imagining Hans trying to hook up with a man. And the circumstances for their romance scene were almost ideal as a setup (which I imagine was the point). Obviously, this would be a hugely risky venture, even for someone like Hans who doesn't worry much about consequences and is generally protected from legal consequences due to his status. So if you were going to undertake a same sex relationship or liason of some kind, I would imagine you would want one of two situations to be true. Either you would want to keep things as anonymous as possible, so there's little chance of your secret getting out, or you would want to be with someone you trust implicitly. Henry and Hans would certainly fall in the latter category. Hans already knows Henry would be willing to die to protect him. Even if the worst happened and Henry was completely disgusted with Hans, he certainly wouldn't turn Hans over to the church to be burned at the stake. Hans might lose his best friend and protector, which would be terrible, but at least he wouldn't lose his life.

The direness of their situation also works in favor of their romance. It adds a lot of urgency to the whole situation. It gives it a "now or never" feeling, that might make people act on impulses they never would have before. There's a good chance in this scene that one or both of them might die very soon. If that's the case, the very serious possible consequences suddenly seem a lot less important. What does it matter that the church might burn you if you're already going to be dead before they have the chance? Even losing Henry as a friend, terrible though it would be for Hans, wouldn't matter much if they were both going to die anyway.

And I think the way they set up the whole scene and the character reactions really adds to the realism factor as well. Henry's initial impulse, to push Hans away, seems very real considering the society they live in. Even though the player as Henry chooses to kiss Hans, Henry still isn't able to bring himself to do it. All he can manage are some vaguely comforting words and a brief clasp of Hans' hand. Hans makes the first move, which realistically, as a noble and Henry's superior, I think he would have to in this time. Henry is ultimately in more danger than Hans here in terms of societal protections, though arguably Hans has a lot more to lose materially. And it makes sense for Henry to be programmed to feel a certain amount of alarm and disgust as a protective impulse to a man kissing him in this sort of society. Hans reacts so well, too. There's so many layers to the emotions on his face in this scene. You can watch him flicker quickly between surprise, regret, panic, self loathing, and resignation. Which seems pretty on point for someone who believes he just ruined his only real friendship and, despite trusting Henry, who might have just put himself in far reaching peril. But then Henry has a moment to reflect and witness Hans' distress, and he realizes what he wants and all the reasons they might as well give it a go, and he very reasonably locks the door and goes back to Hans.

And I think the realism to their romance comes all throughout the game, before, during, and after the romance scene. The few chances you have for Henry to flirt with Hans are all very tame, almost coded and carefully said so as to be easily explained away by any listener (or by Hans if he doesn't feel the same way) as words between two friends. Mostly, Henry emphasizes that he cares about Hans and wants to support him, all things that could easily be true between two good friends, especially when one's job is to protect the other. The absolute most hardcore flirting Henry does before the romance scene is to tell Hans that he really cares about him, and Hans will pretty calmly agree with the sentiment. Which, if you're trying to feel out if your friend also feels some kind of attraction to you, but that attraction could get you both killed, is about the best you can do. During the romance scene Hans has to go into an elaborate anecdote about famous knights who just really, really cared about each other. He mentions that there's some aspect of the the tale that he "doesn't have his own words for" (same sex love, anyone?), and he lets Henry point out the similarities between the story and their own relationship. He even goes so far as to imply that he would die if Henry died, without saying it in so many words, which if there's a clearer way to tell someone you love them in a way that you could somehow write off as nonromantic, I don't know it. And then, after hearing Henry tell him throughout the game about how deeply he cares for Hans and wants to spend more time together, Hans still waits until Henry grabs his hand and swears to return to him before he makes a move. Even after the romance, Henry and Hans are still extremely careful to mask their words for listening ears. Henry refers to Hans' "encouragement." Hans refers to "what happened," which could mean anything to an innocent listener, and "me and you." He also mentions that maybe they should find somewhere "more private" to stay, which would seem like a perfectly reasonable thing for a young nobleman to want. They're still, necessarily, being extremely cautious. Which makes it all very realistic to me.

I think some of the Henry/Hans complainers want to act like having a "gay romance" option in the game means the equivalent of what it would mean in modern day or in a fantasy game like BG3. Like they're just going to be walking around 1400s Europe holding hands and making out in public. And maybe that's why they call it unrealistic. But let's be real, whether you choose the romance or not, very little is going to change for Henry and Hans. Hans will still have to get married to a woman, and Henry will probably marry some day, too. There's a good chance they'll both keep sleeping around with whatever women they can in the meantime because at this point nothing would be more suspicious than to stop. At best, Henry will get to stay on in Hans' castle and be his occassional lover when he has to settle down to start a family. All that seems like a pretty realistic rendition of how a Middle Ages same sex relationship would have to look, so I have to wonder how all these people are finding this relationship to be so "unrealistic?"

#kingdom come deliverance 2 #Kcd2 #Kingdom come deliverance 2 spoilers #henry of skalitz #hans capon #henry/hans #hansry #Video games #Rpgs #I love them #Spoilers #I can't believe i just spent like 2 hours writing this #video game romances

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