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imsobadatnicknames2 · 1 month

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How can you consider yourself any sort of leftist when you defend AI art bullshit? You literally simp for AI techbros and have the gall to pretend you're against big corporations?? Get fucked

I don't "defend" AI art. I think a particular old post of mine that a lot of people tend to read in bad faith must be making the rounds again lmao.

Took me a good while to reply to this because you know what? I decided to make something positive out of this and use this as an opportunity to outline what I ACTUALLY believe about AI art. If anyone seeing this decides to read it in good or bad faith... Welp, your choice I guess.

I have several criticisms of the way the proliferation of AI art generators and LLMs is making a lot of things worse. Some of these are things I have voiced in the past, some of these are things I haven't until now:

Most image and text AI generators are fine-tuned to produce nothing but the most agreeable, generically pretty content slop, pretty much immediately squandering their potential to be used as genuinely interesting artistic tools with anything to offer in terms of a unique aesthetic experience (AI video still manages to look bizarre and interesting but it's getting there too)

In the entertainment industry and a lot of other fields, AI image generation is getting incorporated into production pipelines in ways that lead to the immiseration of working artists, being used to justify either lower wages or straight-up layoffs, and this is something that needs to be fought against. That's why I unconditionally supported the SAG-AFTRA strikes last year and will unconditionally support any collective action to address AI art as a concrete labor issue

In most fields where it's being integrated, AI art is vastly inferior to human artists in any use case where you need anything other than to make a superficially pretty picture really fast. If you need to do anything like ask for revisions or minor corrections, give very specific descriptions of how objects and people are interacting with each other, or just like. generate several pictures of the same thing and have them stay consistent with each other, you NEED human artists and it's preposterous to think they can be replaced by AI.

There is a lot of art on the internet that consists of the most generically pretty, cookie-cutter anime waifu-adjacent slop that has zero artistic or emotional value to either the people seeing it or the person churning it out, and while this certainly was A Thing before the advent of AI art generators, generative AI has made it extremely easy to become the kind of person who churns it out and floods online art spaces with it.

Similarly, LLMs make it extremely easy to generate massive volumes of texts, pages, articles, listicles and what have you that are generic vapid SEO-friendly pap at best and bizzarre nonsense misinformation at worst, drowning useful information in a sea of vapid noise and rendering internet searches increasingly useless.

The way LLMs are being incorporated into customer service and similar services not only, again, encourages further immiseration of customer service workers, but it's also completely useless for most customers.

A very annoyingly vocal part the population of AI art enthusiasts, fanatics and promoters do tend to talk about it in a way that directly or indirectly demeans the merit and skill of human artists and implies that they think of anyone who sees anything worthwile in the process of creation itself rather than the end product as stupid or deluded.

So you can probably tell by now that I don't hold AI art or writing in very high regard. However (and here's the part that'll get me called an AI techbro, or get people telling me that I'm just jealous of REAL artists because I lack the drive to create art of my own, or whatever else) I do have some criticisms of the way people have been responding to it, and have voiced such criticisms in the past.

I think a lot of the opposition to AI art has critstallized around unexamined gut reactions, whipping up a moral panic, and pressure to outwardly display an acceptable level of disdain for it. And in particular I think this climate has made a lot of people very prone to either uncritically entertain and adopt regressive ideas about Intellectual Propety, OR reveal previously held regressive ideas about Intellectual Property that are now suddenly more socially acceptable to express:

(I wanna preface this section by stating that I'm a staunch intellectual property abolitionist for the same reason I'm a private property abolitionist. If you think the existence of intellectual property is a good thing, a lot of my ideas about a lot of stuff are gonna be unpalatable to you. Not much I can do about it.)

A lot of people are suddenly throwing their support behind any proposal that promises stricter copyright regulations to combat AI art, when a lot of these also have the potential to severely udnermine fair use laws and fuck over a lot of independent artist for the benefit of big companies.

It was very worrying to see a lot of fanfic authors in particular clap for the George R R Martin OpenAI lawsuit because well... a lot of them don't realize that fanfic is a hobby that's in a position that's VERY legally precarious at best, that legally speaking using someone else's characters in your fanfic is as much of a violation of copyright law as straight up stealing entire passages, and that any regulation that can be used against the latter can be extended against the former.

Similarly, a lot of artists were cheering for the lawsuit against AI art models trained to mimic the style of specific artists. Which I agree is an extremely scummy thing to do (just like a human artist making a living from ripping off someone else's work is also extremely scummy), but I don't think every scummy act necessarily needs to be punishable by law, and some of them would in fact leave people worse off if they were. All this to say: If you are an artist, and ESPECIALLY a fan artist, trust me. You DON'T wanna live in a world where there's precedent for people's artstyles to be considered intellectual property in any legally enforceable way. I know you wanna hurt AI art people but this is one avenue that's not worth it.

Especially worrying to me as an indie musician has been to see people mention the strict copyright laws of the music industry as a positive thing that they wanna emulate. "this would never happen in the music industry because they value their artists copyright" idk maybe this is a the grass is greener type of situation but I'm telling you, you DON'T wanna live in a world where copyright law in the visual arts world works the way it does in the music industry. It's not worth it.

I've seen at least one person compare AI art model training to music sampling and say "there's a reason why they cracked down on sampling" as if the death of sampling due to stricter copyright laws was a good thing and not literally one of the worst things to happen in the history of music which nearly destroyed several primarily black music genres. Of course this is anecdotal because it's just One Guy I Saw Once, but you can see what I mean about how uncritical support for copyright law as a tool against AI can lead people to adopt increasingly regressive ideas about copyright.

Similarly, I've seen at least one person go "you know what? Collages should be considered art theft too, fuck you" over an argument where someone else compared AI art to collages. Again, same point as above.

Similarly, I take issue with the way a lot of people seem EXTREMELY personally invested in proving AI art is Not Real Art. I not only find this discussion unproductive, but also similarly dangerously prone to validating very reactionary ideas about The Nature Of Art that shouldn't really be entertained. Also it's a discussion rife with intellectual dishonesty and unevenly applied definition and standards.

When a lot of people present the argument of AI art not being art because the definition of art is this and that, they try to pretend that this is the definition of art the've always operated under and believed in, even when a lot of the time it's blatantly obvious that they're constructing their definition on the spot and deliberately trying to do so in such a way that it doesn't include AI art.

They never succeed at it, btw. I've seen several dozen different "AI art isn't art because art is [definition]". I've seen exactly zero of those where trying to seriously apply that definition in any context outside of trying to prove AI art isn't art doesn't end up in it accidentally excluding one or more non-AI artforms, usually reflecting the author's blindspots with regard to the different forms of artistic expression.

(However, this is moot because, again, these are rarely definitions that these people actually believe in or adhere to outside of trying to win "Is AI art real art?" discussions.)

Especially worrying when the definition they construct is built around stuff like Effort or Skill or Dedication or The Divine Human Spirit. You would not be happy about the kinds of art that have traditionally been excluded from Real Art using similar definitions.

Seriously when everyone was celebrating that the Catholic Church came out to say AI art isn't real art and sharing it as if it was validating and not Extremely Worrying that the arguments they'd been using against AI art sounded nearly identical to things TradCaths believe I was like. Well alright :T You can make all the "I never thought I'd die fighting side by side with a catholic" legolas and gimli memes you want, but it won't change the fact that the argument being made by the catholic church was a profoundly conservative one and nearly identical to arguments used to dismiss the artistic merit of certain forms of "degenerate" art and everyone was just uncritically sharing it, completely unconcerned with what kind of worldview they were lending validity to by sharing it.

Remember when the discourse about the Gay Sex cats pic was going on? One of the things I remember the most from that time was when someone went "Tell me a definition of art that excludes this picture without also excluding Fountain by Duchamp" and how just. Literally no one was able to do it. A LOT of people tried to argue some variation of "Well, Fountain is art and this image isn't because what turns fountain into art is Intent. Duchamp's choice to show a urinal at an art gallery as if it was art confers it an element of artistic intent that this image lacks" when like. Didn't by that same logic OP's choice to post the image on tumblr as if it was art also confer it artistic intent in the same way? Didn't that argument actually kinda end up accidentally validating the artistic status of every piece of AI art ever posted on social media? That moment it clicked for me that a lot of these definitions require applying certain concepts extremely selectively in order to make sense for the people using them.

A lot of people also try to argue it isn't Real Art based on the fact that most AI art is vapid but like. If being vapid definitionally excludes something from being art you're going to have to exclude a whooole lot of stuff along with it. AI art is vapid. A lot of art is too, I don't think this argument works either.

Like, look, I'm not really invested in trying to argue in favor of The Artistic Merits of AI art but I also find it extremely hard to ignore how trying to categorically define AI art as Not Real Art not only is unproductive but also requires either a) applying certain parts of your definition of art extremely selectively, b) constructing a definition of art so convoluted and full of weird caveats as to be functionally useless, or c) validating extremely reactionary conservative ideas about what Real Art is.

Some stray thoughts that don't fit any of the above sections.

I've occassionally seen people respond to AI art being used for shitposts like "A lot of people have affordable commissions, you could have paid someone like $30 to draw this for you instead of using the plagiarism algorithm and exploiting the work of real artists" and sorry but if you consider paying an artist a rate that amounts to like $5 for several hours of work a LESS exploitative alternative I think you've got something fucked up going on with your priorities.

Also it's kinda funny when people comment on the aforementioned shitposts with some variation of "see, the usage of AI art robs it of all humor because the thing that makes shitposts funny is when you consider the fact that someone would spend so much time and effort in something so stupid" because like. Yeah that is part of the humor SOMETIMES but also people share and laugh at low effort shitposts all the time. Again you're constructing a definition that you don't actually believe in anywhere outside of this type of conversations. Just say you don't like that it's AI art because you think it's morally wrong and stop being disingenuous.

So yeah, this is pretty much everything I believe about the topic.

I don't "defend" AI art, but my opposition to it is firmly rooted in my principles, and that means I refuse to uncritically accept any anti-AI art argument that goes against those same principles.

If you think not accepting and parroting every Anti-AI art argument I encounter because some of them are ideologically rooted in things I disagree with makes me indistinguishable from "AI techbros" you're working under a fucked up dichotomy.

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darknight3904 · 4 months

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Between the Comfort and the Chaos

𝕊𝕦𝕞𝕞𝕒𝕣𝕪: ɪɴ ᴡʜɪᴄʜ ᴄᴏʀɪᴏʟᴀɴᴜꜱ' ꜱᴛᴏʀʏ ᴄᴏᴍᴇꜱ ᴛᴏ ᴀ ᴄʟᴏꜱᴇ ᴀɴᴅ ʜᴇ ʀᴇᴍᴇᴍʙᴇʀꜱ ᴛʜᴏꜱᴇ ᴄʟᴏꜱᴇꜱᴛ ᴛᴏ ʜɪᴍ

ᴛʜɪꜱ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ꜰᴇᴀᴛᴜʀᴇꜱ ᴋᴀᴛɴɪꜱꜱ (ʏᴀʏ) ᴀɴᴅ ꜱɴᴏᴡ'ꜱ ᴄᴏɴᴠᴇʀꜱᴀᴛɪᴏɴ ɪɴ ᴛʜᴇ ɢʀᴇᴇɴʜᴏᴜꜱᴇ. ɪ ʜᴀᴠᴇ ᴄʜᴀɴɢᴇᴅ ɪᴛ ᴛᴏ ꜰɪᴛ ᴛʜᴇ ɴᴀʀʀᴀᴛɪᴠᴇ ᴛʜᴏᴜɢʜ ꜱᴏ ɴᴏ ᴏɴᴇ ɪꜱ ᴀʟʟᴏᴡᴇᴅ ᴛᴏ ꜱᴀʏ "ᴏʜ ᴛʜɪꜱ ɪꜱɴ'ᴛ ʜᴏᴡ ɪᴛ ᴡᴇɴᴛ!" ɪᴛ ɪꜱ ɴᴏᴡ. ᴛʜᴀᴛꜱ ᴡʜʏ ɪᴛꜱ ᴄᴀʟʟᴇᴅ ꜰᴀɴꜰɪᴄᴛɪᴏɴ.

ᴘʀᴇᴠɪᴏᴜꜱ ᴘᴀʀᴛ / ꜱᴇʀɪᴇꜱ ᴍᴀꜱᴛᴇʀʟɪꜱᴛ / ᴍᴀɪɴ ᴍᴀꜱᴛᴇʀʟɪꜱᴛ

𝕎𝕒𝕣𝕟𝕚𝕟𝕘𝕤: ᴍᴇɴᴛɪᴏɴꜱ ᴏꜰ ꜱᴜɪᴄɪᴅᴇ

ᴛʜɪꜱ ɪꜱ ᴀ ʟɪᴛᴛʟᴇ ᴀᴅᴅɪᴛɪᴏɴ ᴛᴏ ᴛʜᴇ ɪᴛ ʙᴜʀɴꜱ ꜰᴏʀ ʏᴏᴜ ꜱᴇʀɪᴇꜱ. ɪᴛ ɪꜱ ɪɴꜱᴘɪʀᴇᴅ ʙʏ ᴀɴ ᴀꜱᴋ ꜰʀᴏᴍ ᴛʜᴇ ᴀᴍᴀᴢɪɴɢ @squidscottjeans ,ᴛʜᴇ ꜱᴏɴɢ ᴄᴇɪʟɪɴɢꜱ ʙʏ ʟɪᴢᴢɪᴇ ᴍᴄᴀʟᴘɪɴᴇ ᴀɴᴅ ɪ ᴍɪꜱꜱ ʏᴏᴜ, ɪ'ᴍ ꜱᴏʀʀʏ ʙʏ ɢʀᴀᴄɪᴇ ᴀʙʀᴀᴍꜱ.

Italics designate that it is a dream.

The sun is warm on his skin as his eyes meet yours. Musical laughter fills his ears and soft hair tickles his nose.

"What are you laughing at now?" He asked, his voice deep with sleep.

"Your hair is ridiculous, Coryo." You tease pointing at his head

"And who did that hmm? I seem to remember you pushing your fingers through it a thousand times last night." He replies shifting around in the soft white sheets so he's sitting upright.

"You lie! I'd never." You laugh, sitting up beside him, clothed in a soft-looking nightgown he picked out for you.

"Sure you would, you're a menace." He says, wrapping his arms around you and caging you to his chest

"How rude to say to the only person who puts up with that terrible attitude of yours!" You say trying to free yourself from his iron grip.

His muscles flex slightly and his fingers begin to tickle you.

"Coryo!" You laugh, wiggling around in his lap "Coriolanus Snow! I'm going to pee!"

He relents and lets you go at the threat of urine. Wetting the bed is unattractive.

Coriolanus wakes with his heart feeling full. A smile fights for a spot on his face amongst the wrinkles that have formed over the years.

"Now there's something you don't normally see on a dead man's face, a smile."

His smile falls and his gaze snaps to the voice. He groans and straightens up in the uncomfortable chair he dozed off in

"I'm Commander Paylor. From District 8. I wanted to see you before the Mockingjay executes you tomorrow."

Coriolanus isn't entirely sure what to say to the woman in front of him.

"You wanted to meet the monster up close?" He asks, pulling a pure white rose from its spot next to a fountain.

"Yes." She confirms.

Her voice is unshaken as he steps towards her and holds his hand with the rose out.

"Give the Girl on Fire this for me. As a gift." He requests

The woman, rebel, Paylor, slowly takes it from him, undoubtedly suspicious. He smiles when she does, a sign of good faith, but it must scare her because he can tell she's not charmed.

Unsurprisingly, his good looks had vanished years ago.

"What makes you think she'll want this?" She asks shoving the rose back at him.

"You're right, maybe she she wouldn't want it. Although perhaps she'll find me herself, then I can give it to her directly."

Paylor doesn't say another word to him and instead takes her leave. He watches her mumble something to the guards before walking. Most likely demanding that they watch him closely. Like he had somewhere he could run off to, the moment the Capitol's children were killed by bombs, he had lost any bits of support he had left.

He isn't surprised when she appears in his greenhouse. She looks laughably out of place amongst the dazzling white and green, clad in black as she admires one of his roses.

"That's a nice one."

His voice must frighten her because she spins around quickly. How easy it is to startle a bird outside of its cage. It reminds him that Katniss Everdeen, the Girl on Fire, the Mockingjay, the symbol of the rebellion that will kill him tomorrow is nothing more than a scared little girl.

"Nothing says perfection like white." He says, wiping at his mouth, " I was hoping you'd find your way here. There's so many things we should discuss."

Katniss walks towards him as he sits down on a bench, old knees prevent him from standing the way he wanted to. She's silent but he catches her eyes and how they watch the blood on his handkerchief.

Katniss is quiet, waiting for him to elaborate.

"I was 18 when I killed my first person. It was a boy, in the arena. I was there to rescue my friend who was stupid enough to enter the arena to administer burial rights to a District 2 boy he believed was important."

"I don't care," Katniss says getting ready to walk away, clearly uninterested in his life.

"You don't want to know the thoughts of an old man? After all, I'll be dead this time tomorrow. Then my story won't matter. I'll be nothing but pages on a history book one day. You'll be the only one to know how my mind worked back then."

His words get her to stay. Perhaps she is curious about him. Or maybe she doesn't have anything else to do, now that the Districts have taken the Capitol. How terrible it must be to lose your purpose so early on in life.

"I saved him, Sejanus Plinth, that fool. I saved him only to sign his death warrant later. Plotting to escape Panem and killing the mayor of District 12's daughter. You see, Miss Everdeen, taking life without purpose is wasteful. The mayor's daughter never did anything to Sejanus."

"You say don't take life without waste but what about your Fiancee? The one who killed herself. There have been whispers about it for as long as I can remember. I've never bought that she died on her own accord."

"Patience, Miss Everdeen." He smiles, surprised that the rumor about you still has life, he could have sworn he had covered that up perfectly.

"Have you ever heard the name Lucy Gray Baird?" He asked, genuinely curious if that foolish Covey of hers had passed her name down the way her songs had swirled around the rebellion.

"No," Katniss says

"She was a victor of the Hunger Games, just like you. The first victor of District 12 to be precise." Coriolanus watches Katniss' face as she listens, "There's nothing left of her though. She is but a whisper in the wind, I saw to that myself. I must not have done it thoroughly though, after all, you know her songs. The Hanging Tree, and that sweet song you sang that little girl who died in your arms in your first games."

Coriolanus smiles as Katniss' face knits into a mask of displeasure and anger.

"Stop it." She demands, no begs.

"Calm yourself, Miss Everdeen, I'll be finished shortly."

He watches her fists clench, suffocating the stem of the rose she picked between her fingers.

"You asked about my fiance. You're right about your theory, she didn't kill herself the way the gossips spread their lies across this country say. I rid myself of her one day, it was an accident you see. She attacked me first...I regret it though. I regret it most when I'm alone."

Coriolanus sighs, suddenly overcome with sadness as he thinks of you, Lucy Gray, and even Sejanus.

Katniss is quiet for a moment. Her fingers turn the rose over in her fingers, examining it for nonexistent imperfections.

"You deserve it. You deserve every bit of pain her death causes you. You deserve to know the pain you've caused countless families by sending their children into the games. What you've caused me and my family by killing Prim."

He can hear the emotion dripping in her voice when her sister's name leaves her lips. In a way that sister is responsible for where he is now, a prisoner in his own greenhouse.

"Yes, I wanted to tell you how sorry I am about your sister. I was about to release an official surrender when they released the parachutes." He says, truthfully.

"You released those parachutes," Katniss says, her tone cold.

"You think I gave the order? We both know I'm not above killing children, but I'm not wasteful. I take life for specific reasons. I always have. There was no reason for me to destroy a pen of Capitol children."

He coughs, wiping at his mouth, wishing his sores would stop aching.

"It was a masterful move on Coin's part. It turned the last of my guards against me." He smiles "There was no resistance left in the mansion. Did you know it aired live?"

He watches as Katniss takes in his words, her face remains stoic but he can tell she understands him. Understands that Prim is dead because of the woman who is to take his place as leader of Panem.

"I'm sure she wasn't gunning for your sister...but these things happen in war."

"I don't believe you," Katniss says, determined to convince herself more than him.

"Oh my dear Miss Everdeen, I thought we had agreed never to lie to each other."

Sleep is something that has usually evaded Coriolanus Snow. Whether it be his old bones aching, the sores in his mouth, or just a busy mind, he hasn't had a peaceful night in many years.

Tonight is different though. Perhaps it was his conversation with Katniss, or maybe the fact that he would die tomorrow. Tonight Coriolanus Snow falls into a deep slumber, avoiding what his future holds.

Coriolanus!

Coryo!

He can't believe eyes. Here you are, healthy and whole in front of him. Not a winkle or smile line, pollutes your face.

You are as beautiful as the day you left him.

"Y-You're here...with me." He stammers, cursing himself for his blunder.

"Where else would I be, silly?" You smile "This is my room after all."

He glances around and sure enough, you're right. Your sunroom is here, he's in it. Coriolanus sits across from you on the plush baby blue furniture you hand-picked. It's color is as vibrant as ever, not faded like the last time he saw it. Your overflowing desk is to his on his right, burdened with books, drawings, and wildflowers of every color.

"You look lost, Coryo." You observe, taking a sip from the tea cup in front of you.

He takes in your appearance. A pretty sundress sits on your figure. Its yellow flowers make you look as delicate as the teacup in front of him. Your hair is done immaculately and a soft touch of makeup enhances your already stunning features.

"I'm sorry." He suddenly blurts out

"For what?" You ask

" I'm sorry for looking like this." He apologizes, suddenly self-conscious that he's an old man.

"Looking like what?" Your musical voice fills his ears.

Suddenly a mirror is there, in his lap. He looks down and is met with a familiar yet unfamiliar face. Sure, his reflection stares back at him as it always is. But, this time he is met with how he looked the day he killed you. His youth is back, curly hair a mess on his head, out of the confines of the gel he used to slick it back. It is styled just the way you like it.

"Are you sorry for anything else?" You ask sweetly

Coriolanus thinks for a split second that you're testing him. But what reason would you have?

"For everything that happened between us. I regret it all." He admits

Silence feels like a weight on his chest as he waits for you to speak.

"Do you regret what you did to me then? How we ended?" You ask

He can't look at you as he disgests your words.

"Yes." He says, his voice barely a whisper.

"Look at me, Coriolanus."

His gaze remains down, has he always been wearing blue socks?

"Look at me, Coriolanus!"

"Look at me!"

His eyes open to meet the bright light of a flashlight being shown into his eyes.

"He's still alive." A gruff voice says, switching the light off.

"Unfortunately." Another snickers " Here I thought we might get to tell Coin he died of old age."

"Stay alive, snake. We want a good show tomorrow when Katniss shoots you." The first one says tossing him backward onto the small cot that has been placed in his greenhouse for him.

"You're a monster, Coriolanus."

Your voice. It's you!

He turns around and there you are, a gray scarf has been added to your outfit. It's out of place and clashes with your pretty yellow dress. He wants to tell you to get rid of it.

"I'm not." He denies

"You are. Look what you did to Sejanus, to Lucy Gray, to me, to every child who ever stepped foot in an arena. There were never any victors, not really, only you." You hiss

"It is the order of things." He tries to defend his actions, hearing you spout this incorrect information is angering him. Every life he has ever ended has served a greater purpose.

"Snow lands on top, isn't that how it goes?"

Your words send a shiver down his spine.

"I wish I could have changed what happened to you." He says

"No, you don't. You wanted to do it. You wanted to hurt me." You spit

"No, I didn't you're wrong. I never meant for any of that to happen!" He panics, wishing your harsh tone would stop. He haunches over elbows resting on his knees, hands over his ears like a child.

"Yes, you did." You say

He looks up at you now. The ugly scarf is gone but Coriolanus wishes for its return. Deep purple bruises mar your once-perfect skin. From his position, he can see the chinks of the chain that had pressed into your skin.

"You can't even accept what you did to me. You're disgusting, Coryo."

And just like that you're gone. A figment of his imagination comes to life and vanishes just like that.

His chest heaves as he wipes his bloody lips on his deep red robe. His heart rate slows and he wishes someone would bring him a warm cup of tea to soothe his burning throat. Perhaps those guards might indulge him.

A low whistle reaches his ears as he fiddles with the string that sticks out of his pillowcase.

I've taken some hits, so

No wonder I'm wary.

It's why I

Need you-

You're as pure as the driven snow.

Lucy Gray Baird's sweet voice fills his ears for the first time in decades.

"Hello, Coriolanus." She greets him, stepping out from behind a display of roses.

"What do you want?" He snaps

"Well now, there's no need to be rude." She scolds

"Say your piece I'm tired." He says, uninterested in playing her games

"Ah, did she tire you out? She's feisty. I understand why you went back to the Capitol for her." Lucy Gray says

"No, you don't. You barely even met her." He says

"Now thats where you're wrong. She and I know each other well. After all, we're connected through you." Lucy Gray taunts

"You're not real!" He exclaims. "You're gone! Nothing but a whisper of songbird chatter left behind in the woods of District 12!"

His outburst doesn't faze Lucy Gray Baird who smiles at him.

" I can see you're not interested in talking to me the way you did her."

"You're right, I'm not," Coriolanus confirms, wishing Lucy Gray would disappear again.

"Very well, then. I'll leave you to it, then."

The rest of the night is sleepless for Coriolanus. He lays on his back and tries to shake the whispers that flood his mind. Your voice dances with Lucy Gray's tonight, taunting him, driving him mad. Lucy Gray's singing swirls through him like a thick fog over city lights and clouds his mind. At some point, you join in and Coriolanus can't even fathom how you've learned the words of a ghost's songs.

The sun has arisen by the time your voices finally go quiet. He suspects the guards that stand outside his greenhouse doors will come to lead him to his execution any moment now.

"Did you ever stop and think that what you were doing was wrong?"

Sejanus Plinth. He should have known his mind would save the most annoying for last.

"I've never viewed my actions as wrong. Maybe I didn't mean them all but they all served a purpose." Coriolanus affirms, not bothering to look at Sejanus who is apparently behind him.

Sejanus lets out an amused laugh and Coriolanus feels his blood boil. What does a dead boy have to laugh at? He is the one who got to live a long life, not Sejanus Plinth.

"You meant every wrong you've ever committed, Coryo. You're a monster that's going to burn in the deepest pits of hell."

He finally turns, ready to rip Sejanus apart for his words and the use of his personal nickname, a name reserved for you only. He is ready to send Sejanus back to whatever corner of his mind he resided in but is met with nothing but roses.

He runs a hand over his face. Coriolanus Snow has never felt more weary than he does now. He wishes to bury his head beneath his blankets and let the world melt away.

He never gets a chance though because as he relaxes back into his mattress, the greenhouse doors open, signaling his time here has come to a close.

"Get up." a voice orders "It's time."

Coriolanus can see Katniss Everdeen growing closer with every beat of the drums that play. The bow in her hand is as pitch black as the costume she wears. A soft breeze threads its way through the tense scene as he awaits his doom. He's not so worried about it now, his mind has dragged him through the dirt so much within the past twelve hours that he wants an out. He never wants the ability to listen to Sejanus' garbage or Lucy Gray's sweet voice, Coriolanus doesn't even want to have another conversation with you in your sunroom.

No that's not it. Perhaps he was wrong. Maybe he does want some of those things back. Maybe not Sejanus or Lucy Gray but he does yearn for you. He wants you to wrap your arms around him and tell him it's alright. He wants to sit down with you and exist with you in between the comfort and the chaos of this world. He wants you to stay by his side and say that you didn't mean to say that you disgust him.

Maybe none of it was real. No none of it was. You had left him that night in the basement. Your eyes had glazed over and you had stopped fighting him and the chain that brought about your doom.

He can feel hysteria creeping into his mind as Katniss Everdeen stops walking. Behind her, the victors that escaped him stand tall. He catches the gaze of Peeta Mellark, the boy he had kept in your room after he used tracker jacker venom on him.

Three birds fly over him, they flap their wings in perfect harmony. Their black feathers are a stark contrast to the light blue sky that he stares up at now. Coin's words fall on deaf ears as he ignores her whole speech.

"Mockingjay...may your aim be as true as your heart is pure."

Coriolanus watches Katniss Everdeen release her arrow. He expects something, perhaps a dazzling white light or maybe even pitch darkness but it never comes. Instead horrified gasps fill his ears and the thud of a body.

Coriolanus doesn't have to even try to turn around to see what has happened. He knows what the Mockingjay has done to what was Panem's future.

Time slows down as the mob behind her rushes forward. The birds have flown away, off to start a different life, away from darkness and all things bad.

His laughter rings in his ears as his eyes comb the crowd. He can't see much but the red rouge of an academy uniform catches his eyes, accompanied by a flash of rainbow. Sejanus, Lucy Gray. What were they doing here? They couldn't possibly be in the crowd that was running towards him.

They're growing closer, the mob that will end his life. He looks at them, ready to let go. They collide with him, their fists are brutal but justified and he can feel his end rapidly approaching.

"Coryo."

And there it is, at last. Your sweet voice is calling him home.

Thank you for reading this little bonus story. If you enjoyed it please comment, like, or reblog! I love getting feedback. Follow me for more content or check out my master list.

Taglist: (To be added to my permanent Coriolanus taglist please message me directly.)

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ghost-bxrd · 1 month

Note

So, I was skimming the Fae!Dick tag, looking for Dick's reaction to Bruce's "death" and Tim's trip around the world and this happened when I found it.

(I left a bunch of these as a reply but also realized that your activity might be very overwhelming and you wouldn't see it. I don't want you to stress of that, but, like a cat, I move my present to your pillow/inbox where you are sure to see it. Hope you like it more than a mouse. Though I'm leaving off the stuff not directly related to the scene.)

Tim goes on BruceQuest without telling Fae!Dick.

Tim had known that Dick would come for him. Probably... He'd had his hands full keeping Jason and Cass in the house and Tim could be unobtrusive. He had NOT considered what it would be like to be hunted by his older brother. Benignly hunted. Nothing that could hurt him, but Tim knew the instant that Dick noticed he was gone because he could feel an unearthliness nipping at his heels. The baying of the deer. The way trees where ever he went leaned towards him, reaching for him. But he had to keep going. He couldn't let Dick catch up to him until he KNEW for SURE. Not until he had proof that Bruce was really alive. Because if he wasn't and Tim told Dick that he was... Tim had no idea what would happen. But he couldn't be responsible for breaking Dick's heart like that (his own would be enough weight to bear).

He stuck to cities and museums when he could. Places it was harder for Dick to reach him. The League of Assassins tried to join him, they wanted him for something (and to know if he was right). Tim KNEW it was a bad idea, especially for them, but they kept trying. Even though they looked more and more wary and haunted every time they met up. Tim eventually allowed them to accompany him just to protect them from Dick's eventual wrath... His final destination was the desert. If he was right, this was the final location that could prove to him, to Dick that this was real. It didn't matter that the natural beauty of the desert would allow Dick to find him. If Bruce was out there, flung back in time, Tim could show him... if not then he was wrong and he would have to come up with an excuse for why he'd run off and accept the house arrest and benign smothering and being the primary target of Dick's... 'security features' for the foreseeable future.

From there, I can't decide if Dick shows up as Tim is being stabbed or before... if it's before Dick can join Tim in the cave and Tim can show him the bat carving, kind of a pleasant emotionally satisfying moment though I'm not sure that Dick would take his time instead of just grabbing his wayward brother. If it's as he's being stabbed, it's more action packed but I don't think Tim would have even a second to tell Dick about Bruce. Everything around them would be utterly destroyed.

Also, Tim will be experiencing house arrest and benign smothering right or wrong. Yes, it's good that he worked out Bruce is alive. THAT IS NO EXCUSE FOR LEAVING DICK'S SPACE, TIM. AND YOU WILL HAVE TO SUFFER THE OVER PROTECTIVE CONSEQUENCES. (Dick might even put him in an enchanted sleep when he has to wrangle the others. Just to make sure that he doesn't go anywhere. Is that in his wheelhouse? No clue. But I have faith that Dick would find a way.)

oof yeah sorry about that. This blog has grown so much since I started it I have trouble remembering and replying to everything sometimes >.<

I love this idea! Though I think that, as a fae tied to the forest, Dick would have a hard time entering the desert. He would manage for a short while (especially for his family) but it would also drain him pretty quickly. Much like a regular human who isn't used to the harsh sun and climate.

But yeah, I totally agree it would end with Dick dragging Tim back home with SEVERAL lectures waiting to happen.

Good luck to Tim trying to leave the manor--- ever, after that. (Jk, Dick would cut back on the smothering protectiveness eventually). But for several months every turn Tim tries to take that would lead him to the outside ends with the hallways suddenly branching off back to where he started.

Jason and Cass would be entirely unsympathetic to Tim's plight. (they were also worried)

#fae Dick Grayson #fae au

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end-otw-racism · 1 year

Text

End OTW Racism Link Round-up: Week 2!

Our first (hopefully of many) two-week #EndOTWRacism action is over! Check out our post on next steps and how to stay involved if you haven’t already.

Just like our first week link round-up, here’s a collection of some of the longer-form discussion/analysis that people shared in week two (we're going with posts on tumblr, dreamwidth, and other sites, as well as twitter threads that are longer than three tweets). These are posts that we think would be helpful to consider as fandom engages in the necessary conversations about these issues.

Note: There has been a plethora of information that’s come out about OTW in the past week, particularly from former and current volunteers, which calls into question the way the organization functions and details the harm they have done to their own volunteers. Much of it does not directly reference our campaign or racism, so we won’t be sharing all of that conversation here, but you can find a round-up of that conversation at the dreamwidth account synonymous.

Tumblr

seepunkrun: I haven’t heard back from the OTW on this yet. In fact, I’m still waiting for a reply to the last letter I sent them on this subject. That’s why I’m glad to see increased transparency included in @end-otw-racism’s list of demands [link]

wondersmith-and-sons: if we're gonna be frank about otw's "anti-racism policies"/hiring of diversity consultants/attempt for social change, i'm gonna say that my good faith in them has run out a while ago and that i genuinely don't think they ever had the intention to follow through on tackling racial abuse, like, ever. [link]

elumish: In response to criticism about EndOTWRacism (part 2): one of the main questions that I see a lot about stuff like this is, how do we write policy to keep there it from backfiring or being used for purges? [link]

princeescaluswords: Activism Isn’t a Raincoat [link]

massharp1971: The right want free speech, but only for themselves [link]

Twitter

tea_deviation: this is even further off topic, but I was doing the math here and it boggles my fucking mind that ao3 is not driving towards being endowment funded? [link]

fiercynonym: i mentioned, as an aside in my thread about how OTW appears to have $2.5 MILLION that they are spending on absolutely nothing, that francesca coppa received a fan studies grant from OTW once, but i want to talk about that specific piece a little more [link]

generalfrings: For all the disingenuous raising of "concerns" at #EndOTWRacism over hypothetical volunteers that would hypothetically handle racists in AO3 (+ the dismissal of the real current harm on poc and black fans), I want to see some response for OTW actually traumatizing real volunteers [link]

_impertinence: #EndOTWRacism the way chinese fans have been sidelined and belittled by the org is so fucking disgusting [link]

hydrochaeris3: ok full disclosure this came about bc i was thinking about why i havent seen people be "pro worker" (or in the otw/ao3's case "pro volunteer") more in response to the endotwracism campaign. bc in most leftist circles ik that ppl would use workers rights arguments to push back on [link]

saathi1013: If it's anything I've learned from contemporary activism it's this: it's never "just" racism. [link]

cyrilapologist: worth considering that end otw racism is also a labor issue [link]

hydrochaeris3: stalking IS bad but i do think it's real funny that so many bnfs are coming out of the woodwork to say smthn about how upsetting it is that this white person got stalked instead of literally anything for #EndOTWRacism for the last two whole weeks [link]

aral_was_here: I'm going to keep the pfp and account name for a bit because I'm feeling pissed about how #EndOTWRacism has been dismissed by so many fans as virtue signaling or as a smokescreen for certain people they see as fandom boogeymen lying in wait to take our porn at a moment's notice. [link]

Dreamwidth

beatrice_otter: Signal boost: "Be more democratic, be more autocratic, OTW", by chestnut_pod (with background & highlights) [link]

wistfuljane: Mythical Dragons & Wild Unicorns: A Decade Later [link]

naye: The Glorious 25th of May - #EndOTWRacism [link]

naye: OTW needs a lot more transforming [link]

Other sites

enk-dash-one at fandom.ink: 1/3 Fellow white people, I encourage you to read this thread first: Then, I'd like to add, speaking exclusively to fellow white people who are worried about this: we are already racist. [link]

Klaudiasays on TikTok: let's get #EndOTWRacism trending [link]

Stitch for Teen Vogue: As #EndOTWRacism Fights for AO3 Policy Changes, Fandom Racism Bubbles to the Surface [link]

We'd love for folks to keep discussing the issues raised during this action! We organizers are probably going to go quiet for a little while to gather ourselves and work on moving forward, but if you send us posts by submitting to our tumblr, tweeting at us, messaging us on dreamwidth, or emailing us at endotwracism [at] gmail [dot], we will consider linking or posting them. We do reserve the right to only share posts that are in line with the intent of the campaign and that we believe are adding to the conversation.

#end otw racism #racism in fandom #ao3 #otw #organization for transformative works #archive of our own #fandom racism #endotwracism #link round up

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sideprince · 3 months

Text

I wrote a reply to this post but OP has deleted it and even though I should probably leave well enough alone, it got to me that I could have sworn I saw this post months ago and then realized it was actually from yesterday. This is a long reply so I'm putting it under a cut, but after I went to OP's blog and saw a post from them complaining how mean everyone was to them on this post, I replied to say I'm sorry if they got any anon hate I don't know about but otherwise none of the comments on this post were mean or hateful, they just disagreed with OP. I pointed out that this is partly because they cited non-canon events as canon, and OP immediately blocked me (this may be why I can't reblog the post even from another user, though that's not how tumblr usually works so who knows). I can't help but feel that OP's post was made in bad faith, as a result, and I've seen enough people on this hellsite who are more interested in protecting their egos than admit when they could have been approached something more thoughtfully, so I'm diving in. If you're going to say a character "is very interesting to study" while doing the exact opposite, then you'd better have the critical analysis skills and textual evidence to back it up.

I think OP has some misconceptions that are frustratingly common, and seem to stem from people not having read the books, or not read them for a long time, and conflating the movies with canon. While I mostly agree with the replies above, I want to take this opportunity to cite the text to refute some of OP's points. I often forget details from the text, but I choose to either look them up before asserting unconfirmed points as fact (Potter Search is a great tool, or you can just do a ctrl+F search if you have the books digitally), or else I usually state clearly that I'm not sure if I remember something correctly and don't have the spoons to look it up.

I saw OP say in the comments in response to someone arguing their points:

"that's your interpretation, I have mine, I think both can coexist within the material we are given."

It doesn't sit right with me that so many people think that referring to their subjective memory of what the text meant to them is the same as actually citing it and offering an explanation. OP's interpretation can't exist within the material given, because some of it doesn't exist in the material at all, and you can't interpret what isn't there. OP is essentially claiming to have done critical analysis, and although no one is required to always critique a text analytically on a tumblr post, I find it upsetting when people claim to do so while failing to cite a single source to support their argument. To me it sounds like someone trying to pass off a creative writing essay as an academic research paper, and in an age of rampant propaganda and knee-jerk reblogs that eschew critical thinking, I feel an almost compulsive need to go through OP's reply and argue it with the textual evidence they conveniently avoided, if for no other reason than to show why it's important to discern between loosely formed opinions and informed ones.

I also want to explain why I don't accept the films as canon, because while I do think that canon can exist across several mediums (such as with Good Omens, in which at least one of the writers of the text is directly involved in writing the TV series), I don't think that applies to Harry Potter because the original author was only marginally involved in the films, in only a consultant role, and had little input on the writing. The HP films are an interpretation as written from the perspective of Steve Kloves, except for OoTP, which was written by Michael Goldenberg. I've gone into it on other posts, but suffice to say these interpretations did not prioritize story and character development and were often influenced by pressure from the studio to prioritize marketing opportunities over storytelling. Important elements like foreshadowing and themes were not carried over from the text to the screen. These changes affected the storytelling significantly and left out crucial elements. This, combined with the films having been written with little to no involvement from the original author, is why I feel the films can't be taken as canon. This doesn't mean they can't be enjoyed by any means, just that they scenes that appear in the films but not in the text, or are presented differently on screen than in the text, are not a reasonable basis for character analysis.

And now, on to OP's ask:

"I think he is a very good representation of a man who felt insecure in his manhood; his male ego was permanently wounded by James' bullying and he decided to make it everyone else's problem by being the most insufferable teacher at Hogwarts."

The first thing we have to establish is that the books are told from Harry's perspective, so we have to take narrative bias into account. Calling Snape "the most insufferable teacher at Hogwarts" is a subjective statement and I can only assume it's based in Harry's biased perspective as narrator, given that he and Snape have a bad relationship from the outset. I have a brief analysis here about how Snape dislikes Harry because in their first class together he interprets Harry's ignorance of the course material as a lack of curiosity and appreciation for his gifts as a wizard, while also recognizing something of his own experiences with childhood poverty and abuse in Harry. Harry, being ignorant of these factors, just feels singled out for hate by a strict teacher, and their relationship deteriorates throughout the rest of the series, until the end of the final book.

To pull back from the narrative bias, let's look at some of the other teachers are Hogwarts:

McGonagall:

“Miss Granger, you foolish girl, how could you think of tackling a mountain troll on your own?” Hermione hung her head. Harry was speechless. Hermione was the last person to do anything against the rules, and here she was, pretending she had, to get them out of trouble. It was as if Snape had started handing out sweets. “Miss Granger, five points will be taken from Gryffindor for this,” said Professor McGonagall. “I’m very disappointed in you. If you’re not hurt at all, you’d better get off to Gryffindor Tower. Students are finishing the feast in their Houses.”

Philosopher's Stone, Ch. 10.

“I’m disgusted,” said Professor McGonagall. “Four students out of bed in one night! I’ve never heard of such a thing before! You, Miss Granger, I thought you had more sense. As for you, Mr. Potter, I thought Gryffindor meant more to you than this. All three of you will receive detentions — yes, you too, Mr. Longbottom, nothing gives you the right to walk around school at night, especially these days, it’s very dangerous — and fifty points will be taken from Gryffindor.” “Fifty?” Harry gasped — they would lose the lead, the lead he’d won in the last Quidditch match. “Fifty points each,” said Professor McGonagall, breathing heavily through her long, pointed nose.

Philosopher's Stone, Ch. 15

In just the first book we see McGonagall punish Hermione for successfully defending herself against a troll and take house points, then sends her back to her common room without getting medical attention, as if a ten year old can be responsible for assessing how badly they're hurt. A few chapters later McGonagall takes several hundred points from students in her own house (more than we see any other teacher do at one time throughout the series), and assigns the students detention on top of it. As we later see in the same chapter, the detentions aren't even served with her directly, but instead the children - again, ten years old - are sent into the Forbidden Forest at night with only Hagrid to protect them, to hunt down whatever creature is vicious and cunning enough to kill unicorns.

Although it's said that Snape favors the students in his own house, he doesn't seem to be the only one:

“Potter's been sent a broomstick, Professor,” said Malfoy quickly. “Yes, yes, that’s right,” said Professor Flitwick, beaming at Harry. “Professor McGonagall told me all about the special circumstances, Potter. And what model is it?” “A Nimbus Two Thousand, sir,” said Harry, fighting not to laugh at the look of horror on Malfoy’s face. “And it’s really thanks to Malfoy here that I’ve got it,” he added.

Philosopher's Stone, Ch. 10

Not only did McGonagall make an exception to school practices and allow Harry on his house Quidditch team despite being a first year, she used either school funds or her own (unclear) to purchase a first-rate broom for him. We know the school has brooms, as first years are not allowed their own and they are provided for flying lessons, and because “Harry had heard Fred and George Weasley complain about the school brooms” (PS ch. 9). And yet, McGonagall ensures Harry has his own broom, and an expensive one, new enough to be the show model in a shop window in Diagon Alley a few months earlier:

“Several boys of about Harry’s age had their noses pressed against a window with broomsticks in it. ‘Look,’ Harry heard one of them say, ‘the new Nimbus Two Thousand - fastest ever -”

-Philosopher's Stone, Ch. 5

If we're discussing which teachers are Hogwarts are the most "insufferable" then we also have to talk about Hagrid, who might mean well and be affectionate, but is also irresponsible and dangerous.

In Philosopher's Stone, Hagrid:

Punishes Dudley, a child, for his parents' offenses, the final straw being his father insulting Dumbledore (Ch. 4). While Hagrid acknowledges that he shouldn't have lost his temper, he also admits that his intention had been to turn Dudley fully into a pig.

Hatches a dragon in his cabin (Ch. 14), tries to raise it illegally and against the animal's need of care, and Harry, Ron, and Hermione (again, ten year olds) have to fix the situation and get Ron's brother to find some friends to take the dragon away safely and prevent Hagrid losing his job (Ch. 14). In the process Hagrid endangers himself as well as the children, and it's because of this that McGonagall gives them detention and deducts hundreds of house points. Hagrid not only allows the children to endanger themselves for his sake, but to be punished and subsequently ostracized by their peers also for his sake.

The reason he even has a dragon is, as we find out in Ch. 16, because he was foolish enough to accept it from a faceless stranger in exchange for unwittingly divulging the secret to getting past the three headed dog guarding the Philosopher's Stone (and the stranger later turns out to be Quirrel/Voldemort).

In Prisoner of Azkaban, Hagrid:

Starts his first lesson with a volatile creature (Ch. 6) and, although Malfoy acted irresponsibly, Hagrid was nevertheless the teacher and responsible for providing course material consistent with the experience level and maturity of his students' age.

Gets drunk and has to be taken care of by Harry, Ron, and Hermione (again, children) (Ch. 6)

Skipping ahead to Order of the Phoenix ch. 30, we find out Hagrid

Compromised his return from the mission Dumbledore sent him on by bringing a giant back to England.

Brought said giant into the school grounds and left him in the Forbidden Forest.

Asks Harry and Hermione (still children) to look after him if Hagrid is sacked.

Although Hagrid means well, his actions are consistently thoughtless and irresponsible, requiring those around him - often Harry, Ron, and Hermione - to fix the damage he causes. Although I think it remains subjective which teacher at Hogwarts is the "most insufferable" I think Hagrid is a strong enough candidate to qualify OP's interpretation of Snape holding that title as extremely contestable. Of course, since the books are presented through the lens of Harry's narrative bias, and he's fond of Hagrid, respects McGonagall, and dislikes Snape, an uncritical reading could lead one to OP's conclusions. However, a more objective analysis of the text shows that many teachers at Hogwarts are strict, punitive, biased, and wreak havoc on students in ways that make the Snape's actions look fairly tame, or at least the norm. And this is excluding an analysis of various DADA professors like Lockhart and Crouch/Moody, who were insufferable in their own rights (Lockhart was smarmy and dishonest to the point it risked students' lives; Crouch/Moodly transfigured a child into a ferret and humiliated him with torture as a disciplinary measure and deliberately triggered Neville's trauma in class).

OP continues their reply to say:

Add to this that he is a halfblood and only his mother was around, iirc?

They don't recall correctly. Snape, whose father was a muggle and whose mother was a witch, was indeed a half-blood (as is evidenced by him being revealed to be the Half-Blood Prince - I assume I don't need to cite a source as this is a pretty well-known fact and the literal title of an entire HP book, but should you need a reference it's in Ch. 28 of HBP). Both his parents were around in his childhood:

Snape staggered - his wand flew upwards, away from Harry - and suddenly Harry’s mind was teeming with memories that were not his: a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner …

-Order of the Phoenix, Ch. 26

‘How are things at your house?’ Lily asked. A little crease appeared between his eyes. ‘Fine,’ he said. ‘They’re not arguing any more?’ ‘Oh, yes, they’re arguing,’ said Snape. He picked up a fistful of leaves and began tearing them apart, apparently unaware of what he was doing. ‘But it won’t be that long and I’ll be gone.’ ‘Doesn’t your dad like magic?’ ‘He doesn’t like anything, much,’ said Snape.

-Deathly Hallows, Ch. 33

We know that Snape's father was around because he's mentioned both in Snape's memories in OoTP that Harry accidentally invades during an Occlumency lesson, and when we see in Snape's memories that he gives Harry as he dies. Lily asks about his home life by referring to both his parents, implying that his dad is a consistent presence at home. We also know from JK Rowling that Snape's father "didn't hold back when it came to the whip" but this is supplementary and not mentioned in canon, so I don't expect anyone to refer to it when analyzing the text, I'm just adding it as bonus material.

Continuing on with OP's reply:

Snape, Voldemort and Harry all act like foils of each other in that sense, but whereas Voldemort fixated on his blood status as the main reason for his insecurities, Snape fixated on Lily.

So much to unpack here. Firstly, all of this should be backed up by examples from the text, as they are subjective readings that have significant bearing on character analysis.

Snape, Harry, and Voldemort don't act like foils of each other. For one thing, a character doesn't act like a foil, a character either is or isn't one. That being said, I don't know OP's background and there could be a language barrier because English isn't everyone's first language, I'm just being pedantic. Even with that in mind, the statement remains incorrect. A foil is a literary device - a character who contrasts with another character, often with the protagonist. It is not a choice a character makes or an action they take.

In Philosopher's Stone Snape is set up as a foil to Harry in order to misdirect the reader from suspecting the real villain, Quirrel/Voldemort. Snape is presented as secretive, sneaky, and nefarious, contrasting Harry's role as a protagonist who is outspoken, honest, and brave. As the series progresses, Snape, along with Voldemort, are eventually shown to have more parallels than contrasts with Harry. Snape and Voldemort were born into muggle poverty, and although Harry was raised in a middle class home by the Dursleys, they thrust poverty and neglect onto him in a way that parallels his childhood of neglect and want with that of Snape and Voldemort. Snape's father was abusive, as was Harry's guardian, Vernon Dursley. Harry, Voldemort, and Snape all had traumatic experiences growing up in muggle environments. If anything, Snape and Voldemort might be foils to Harry in that they both harbored resentment for their muggle fathers in ways that signified the separation between the wizarding and muggle world, while Harry's experiences with the Dursleys didn't color his image of muggles in a comparable way.

The contrast between Harry, Snape, and Voldemort is in the way each of them deals with their trauma. As Dumbledore says:

"It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."

-Chamber of Secrets, Ch. 18

This becomes one of the overarching themes of the HP series, Harry, Snape, and Voldemort are all examples of how their choices took them to such different places in life from their comparable childhoods.

At school Voldemort was a handsome boy with talent, intelligence, and the recommendations of his teachers, but he chose to pursue power instead of success:

“He reached the seventh year of his schooling with, as you might have expected, top grades in every examination he had taken. All around him, his classmates were deciding which jobs they were to pursue once they had left Hogwarts. Nearly everybody expected spectacular things from Tom Riddle, prefect, Head Boy, winner of the Special Award for Services to the School. I know that several teachers, Professor Slughorn amongst them, suggested that he join the Ministry of Magic, offered to set up appointments, put him in touch with useful contacts. He refused all offers. The next thing the staff knew, Voldemort was working at Borgin and Burkes.”

Half-Blood Prince, Ch. 20

Snape chose to become a Death Eater for reasons we can only assume. We know he was in Slytherin during an era when Voldemort was in power and many of his allies had children in Slytherin house. At least two of Snape's dorm-mates, Mulciber and Avery, are canonically acknowledged to have become Death Eaters (both are present at the Ministry when Harry and his friends fight the Death Eaters in the Department of Mysteries in OoTP Ch. 35). It's unclear whether Snape chose to become a Death Eater out of admiration for them or out of peer pressure, or perhaps a lack of other options, while at school:

'… thought we were supposed to be friends?’ Snape was saying. ‘Best friends?’ ‘We are, Sev, but I don’t like some of the people you’re hanging around with! I’m sorry, but I detest Avery and Mulciber! Mulciber! What do you see in him, Sev? He’s creepy! D’you know what he tried to do to Mary Macdonald the other day?’ Lily had reached a pillar and leaned against it, looking up into the thin, sallow face. ‘That was nothing,’ said Snape. ‘It was a laugh, that’s all -‘ ‘It was Dark Magic, and if you think that’s funny -‘ ‘What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?’ demanded Snape. His colour rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed, to hold in his resentment.

-Deathly Hallows, Ch. 33

It's unclear what Snape thinks of Avery and Mulciber, as his reply to Lily is downplaying but doesn't defend their actions. We see Snape's indecisiveness later in the argument he has with Lily after he calls her a Mudblood:

'It’s too late. I’ve made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends - you see, you don’t even deny it! You don’t even deny that’s what you’re all aiming to be! You can’t wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?’ He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking. ‘I can’t pretend any more. You’ve chosen your way, I’ve chosen mine.’ ‘No - listen, I didn’t mean -‘ ‘- to call me Mudblood? But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?'

-Deathly Hallows, Ch. 33

Although Snape does ultimately choose to become a Death Eater, we see in his reply to Lily about both Avery and Mulciber and later her assumption that they all want to become Death Eaters that Snape doesn't argue for or against her accusations, but instead is evasive and unsure of himself. He opens his mouth to speak when she accuses him of wanting to become a Death Eater, but then closes it again without saying anything - he can neither argue against her point, nor state clearly, let alone with any kind of conviction, that this is indeed his ambition. It can be argued that it's the passivity of his choice that lands him with a Dark Mark on his arm, and it's the active choice he makes to risk his life in order to defect from Voldemort's ranks and turn spy that defines his character and without which Harry could not have defeated Voldemort.

Harry, as the protagonist, is also significantly defined by the theme of choice:

'But, sir,’ said Harry, making valiant efforts not to sound argumentative, ‘it all comes to the same thing, doesn’t it? I’ve got to try and kill him, or -‘ ‘Got to?’ said Dumbledore. ‘Of course you’ve got to! But not because of the prophecy! Because you, yourself, will never rest until you’ve tried! We both know it! Imagine, please, just for a moment, that you had never heard that prophecy! How would you feel about Voldemort now? Think!’ Harry watched Dumbledore striding up and down in front of him, and thought. He thought of his mother, his father and Sirius. He thought of Cedric Diggory. He thought of all the terrible deeds he knew Lord Voldemort had done. A flame seemed to leap inside his chest, searing his throat. ‘I’d want him finished,’ said Harry quietly. ‘And I’d want to do it.’ ‘Of course you would!’ cried Dumbledore. ‘You see, the prophecy does not mean you have to do anything! But the prophecy caused Lord Voldemort to mark you as his equal … in other words, you are free to choose your way, quite free to turn your back on the prophecy! But Voldemort continues to set store by the prophecy. He will continue to hunt you … which makes it certain, really, that -' ‘That one of us is going to end up killing the other,’ said Harry. ‘Yes.'

-Half-Blood Prince, Ch. 33

There's a clear point made by the author through Dumbledore as her proxy here, that choice is what matters, not fate. It's Harry's choices that make him the person he is and lead him to eventually defeat Voldemort. While Snape, Voldemort, and Harry all can be contrasted through the lens of their choices, this does not make them foils, as it is the the theme of choice and how it is exemplified by each character that makes them unique, but their experiences and many of their character traits (boldness, bravery, a personal sense of conviction) that make them parallels of one another. Each of them occupies their own place on the spectrum between the light and dark that the series establishes, Voldemort at the dark end, Harry at the light, and Snape in the grey area between them.

OP goes on to say:

His character is all about male entitlement, he was obsessed with her at Hogwarts and then showed to have no boundaries as he went into her house to cradle her dead body in front of her traumatized kid.

There's a lot to unpack here, and it's particularly challenging because you can't provide textual evidence for something that didn't happen in the text. After the above scene from Ch. 33 of DH in which Lily ends her friendship with Snape, we never see them interact again:

'No - listen, I didn’t mean -‘ ‘- to call me Mudblood? But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?’ He struggled on the verge of speech, but with a contemptuous look she turned and climbed back through the portrait hole … The corridor dissolved, and the scene took a little longer to reform: Harry seemed to fly through shifting shapes and colours until his surroundings solidified again and he stood on a hilltop, forlorn and cold in the darkness, the wind whistling through the branches of a few leafless trees. The adult Snape was panting, turning on the spot, his wand gripped tightly in his hand, waiting for something or for someone …'

-Deathly Hallows, Ch. 33

The scene in the corridor in front of Gryffindor Tower between a fifth year Snape and Lily leads directly into the scene where Snape begs Dumbledore to protect the Potters (which I wrote an analysis of a few months ago but is too long a subject to derail this post for). We see no more interactions between Snape and Lily, and therefore there is no canonical support for the idea that Snape behaved obsessively or failed to respect her boundaries.

There's also no mention of Snape going to Godric's Hollow at all after her death. Snape holding Lily's dead body is only shown in the film version of Deathly Hallows, and as mentioned, the films are not canon. That moment doesn't exist in the text and can't be considered in an analysis of Snape's character. The scene on the hilltop leads directly into the scene of Snape crying in Dumbledore's office:

The hilltop faded, and Harry stood in Dumbledore’s office, and something was making a terrible sound, like a wounded animal. Snape was slumped forwards in a chair and Dumbledore was standing over him, looking grim. After a moment or two, Snape raised his face, and he looked like a man who had lived a hundred years of misery since leaving the wild hilltop. ‘I thought … you were going … to keep her … safe …’ ‘She and James put their faith in the wrong person,’ said Dumbledore. ‘Rather like you, Severus. Weren’t you hoping that Lord Voldemort would spare her?’ Snape’s breathing was shallow.

-Deathly Hallows, Ch. 33

This is the only depiction of Snape immediately following the Potters' deaths. The scene of him cradling Lily's dead body was Steve Kloves' invention and has no basis in canon. If anything, Snape's actions in canon can be interpreted to show that he respected the boundaries Lily set, and that even when her life was at risk he chose to go to Dumbledore - who he thought might kill him on sight - rather than talk to her directly after she ended their friendship. In addition, in all the information the text gives about the night Voldemort fell in Godric's Hollow and Hagrid collected Harry to take him to Privet Drive, there's no mention of Snape whatsoever.

There isn't much in the text to support the interpretation that Snape exemplified male entitlement either. So far we've seen him being as strict, if not milder, than other teachers at the school, his favoritism is also comparable to that of other teachers - implying it's more of a norm than an example of entitlement - and there are no canonical examples to support the argument that he was obsessed with Lily or violated her boundaries. Snape struggles to argue with Lily when she accuses and berates him, and the usual markers of patriarchal entitlement - silencing women, gaslighting, dismissing women's opinions, talking over them - are all nowhere to be found in any of their interactions. The only time we see him lash out at Lily is when he calls her Mudblood (OoTP Ch. 28) which, while inexcusable, he does under traumatic duress, and is not indicative of his usual interactions with her, as exemplified by the fact that she ends their friendship over it. As cited before:

'No - listen, I didn’t mean -‘ ‘- to call me Mudblood? But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?’

There's a clear implication that Snape has never called her this before. An argument can also be made that it speaks volumes of Lily's own biases, or perhaps her own affection for Snape (who, not long before this, was still her best friend), that she excused this behavior from him when it was directed at others, and only took issue with it when it was directed at herself. That, combined with Lily's own acknowledgment that they were "best friends" shows that Snape's relationship with her was a balanced, consensual one even when it became strained, up until their friendship ended.

Continuing with OP's points:

He only saw Lily as a trophy to be possessed, which you can see from the way he hated Harry, because Harry reminded him Lily wasn't his and that Lily had sex with another man.

There's no support for this in the text anywhere and is pure conjecture. I can appreciate it being OP's headcanon, but it's certainly not a result of studying the text and relying on it to form opinions, but rather seems to be OP projecting pre-conceived notions onto Snape as a character and trying to find justification for it. I've written a whole post extrapolating Snape's first class with Harry, but the tl;dr is that Snape, who grew up in muggle poverty and knew Aunt Petunia enough to guess that Harry didn't fare well in her care when he showed up at school bearing signs of neglect, likely expected Harry to have the same hunger for learning that he himself did at Harry's age. Instead, Harry couldn't answer a single one of his questions and showed no curiosity or enthusiasm towards being a wizard as far as Snape could tell.

Nevertheless, even though Snape did seem to dislike Harry, hate is an awful strong word given that it is revealed at the end of Deathly Hallows that Snape has risked his own life to protect him. This isn't particularly surprising when you consider that this goal was established as early as Philosopher's Stone, when Snape protected him, which Harry initially interpreted as Snape trying to kill him:

Harry couldn’t take it in. This couldn’t be true, it couldn’t. ‘But Snape tried to kill me!’ ‘No, no, no. I tried to kill you. Your friend Miss Granger accidentally knocked me over as she rushed to set fire to Snape at that Quidditch match. She broke my eye contact with you. Another few seconds and I’d have got you off that broom. I’d have managed it before then if Snape hadn’t been muttering a counter-curse, trying to save you.’ ‘Snape was trying to save me?’ ‘Of course,’ said Quirrell coolly. -Philosopher's Stone, Ch. 17

Again, the story is told through the lens of Harry's bias, but that doesn't mean his opinions of Snape reflect Snape's character. As another example, there's an implication in OoTP that Snape, having seen some of the Dursleys' abuse of Harry through his memories during Occlumency lessons, passed this information on in an effort to protect Harry, and that this is the reason why several Order members (Arthur Weasley and Moody in particular) show up at King's Cross at the end of the schoolyear and threaten the Dursleys to stop mistreating him. There seems to be no other explanation in the text for why these adults are suddenly aware of the abuse Harry experiences, except that Snape, who was abused as a child himself, and who is an Order member himself, is the only adult in the series who we see witness Harry's mistreatement firsthand. At no point in the narrative do we see Harry complain about the Dursleys to the adults he trusts or ask them for help, merely to spend his holidays away from them without explanation.

While Snape did indeed dislike Harry and often compared him to his father, his dislike for James had much more significant roots in bullying and trauma than in his concern for Lily's relationship with him. It's established in canon that James Potter and Sirius Black dislike Snape from the outset (as in the scene on the Hogwarts Express in DH Ch. 33). In their fifth year, Sirius - annoyed that Snape is so curious about where Lupin goes each month - tricks Snape into following the tunnel under the Whomping Willow to the Shrieking Shack, as Lupin tells Harry:

'Professor Snape was at school with us. ... Sirius here played a trick on him which nearly killed him, a trick which involved me -‘ Black made a derisive noise. ‘It served him right,’ he sneered. ‘Sneaking around, trying to find out what we were up to … hoping he could get us expelled …' 'Severus was very interested in where I went every month,’ Lupin told Harry, Ron and Hermione. ‘We were in the same year, you know, and we - er - didn’t like each other very much. He especially disliked James. Jealous, I think, of James’s talent on the Quidditch pitch … anyway, Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madam Pomfrey one evening as she led me towards the Whomping Willow to transform. Sirius thought it would be - er - amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree-trunk with a long stick, and he’d be able to get in after me. Well, of course, Snape tried it - if he’d got as far as this house, he’d have met a fully grown werewolf - but your father, who’d heard what Sirius had done, went after Snape and pulled him back, at great risk to his life … Snape glimpsed me, though, at the end of the tunnel. He was forbidden to tell anybody by Dumbledore, but from that time on he knew what I was …'

-Prisoner of Azkaban, Ch. 18

From this we can deduce that Sirius intended for Snape to die, or at least get severely injured, and that even as a grown adult Sirius doesn't regret trying to mete out this punishment to him as retaliation for curiosity. We can also deduce that Lupin was unaware of Sirius' intention and did not consent to be used as a weapon. For his part, Snape never did reveal that Lupin was a werewolf while at school, or even during that school year, until after Lupin ran amok on Hogwarts grounds, endangering others' lives, including Harry's.

There are other meta posts that go into Lupin's insecurities and vulnerabilities, but in short, he was grateful just to be allowed into the school as a student, let alone to have friends, and was in no position to challenge James and Sirius. Even as a prefect he didn't curb their behavior, as we see when he allows James to bully Snape later that year after their O.W.L.s:

'Leave him alone,’ Lily repeated. She was looking at James with every sign of great dislike. ‘What’s he done to you?’ ‘Well,’ said James, appearing to deliberate the point, ‘it’s more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean …’ Many of the surrounding students laughed, Sirius and Wormtail included, but Lupin, still apparently intent on his book, didn’t, and nor did Lily. ‘You think you’re funny,’ she said coldly. ‘But you’re just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter. Leave him alone.’ ‘I will if you go out with me, Evans,’ said James quickly. ‘Go on … go out with me and I’ll never lay a wand on old Snivelly again.'

-Order of the Phoenix, Ch. 28

James acknowledges that he has no real reason to bully Snape and uses violence as a bargaining chip to coerce Lily into going out with him (James' behavior reflects much more entitlement than Snape's, in my opinion). He also chokes Snape with a bar of soap and then assaults him by dangling him upside down and removing his trousers (threatening to remove his underwear but we don't see it happen).

Lily herself refers to James as arrogant, and it's this trait, along with the trauma from James' bullying of him, that Snape perceives in Harry. He doesn't resent Harry for looking like his father because it reminds him that Lily had sex with another man, he resents him for it because of all the trauma James inflicted on him. The conflict-laden relationship between Snape and the Marauders is a significant driver of the story through several of the books and OP seems subjective to the point of being problematic in ignoring it completely and instead focusing Snape's dislike of Harry onto an invented idea of sexual jealousy that doesn't exist in the text.

It's never stated whether Snape had romantic feelings for Lily, or vice versa, only that they were friends. The closest we see to a hint of this is when “The intensity of his [Snape's] gaze made her [Lily] blush," or when “The moment she [Lily] had insulted James Potter, his [Snape's] whole body had relaxed, and as they walked away there was a new spring in Snape’s step …”

Lily's blush could be interpreted as implying she was attracted to him, or conversely that she didn't and felt awkward thinking he might be attracted to her. Similarly, Snape's relief at her insulting James can be interpreted as indicative of his attraction to her, or of him simply being worried about a friend hanging out with people he perceived as dangerous and was relieved to learn she wasn't putting herself in the way of danger by becoming friends with them. Although JK Rowling has said that her intention was for Snape's affections towards Lily to be romantic, and that she may have returned his affection had he not chosen the path he did, this is - like the note about Snape's father whipping him - extratextual and more of an interesting fact than a bit of canon to be extrapolated from the text.

Finally, OP says:

His interest in the Death Eaters was only secondary to his obsession with Lily and I think Lily rejecting him pushed him toward joining the Death Eaters, because, once again, his male ego was bruised and he needed to replace it with something else.

We've already seen that Snape's interest in joining the Death Eaters was a big part of Lily's reason for ending their friendship. Therefore, logically, Lily's decision didn't push him towards becoming a Death Eater, but rather isolated him from having any support system outside of the DEs. She didn't reject him, because rejection is the refusal or dismissal of another person's advances or proposal. They were friends, meaning they had a mutually consensual platonic relationship. Lily therefore didn't reject Snape, she ended their friendship and, as already stated, nothing in canon implies he didn't respect her boundaries.

As we have also seen in canon, Snape was bullied at school and had, at best, a neglectful and dysfunctional home environment in his childhood. In addition, he shared a dorm with students actively interested in becoming Death Eaters, and his one social lifeline away from them was cut off when he called Lily a Mudblood. What OP interprets as Snape's male ego being bruised is actually a much more complex set of social and emotional factors being described throughout the series to eventually reveal the profile of a character - young Snape - who was a vulnerable youth primed for radicalization by a violent faction of zealots. Although the enforcement and upholding of patriarchal norms is often a huge element of these kinds of social movements, that didn't seem to be the driving force for Snape based on everything we learn about his character. Instead, what we see is a boy who comes from abuse, lives in abuse at school, who loses all the support systems that might give him an alternative to the fascist cult he's being radicalized into which - if it's like most hate groups - would have been more than welcome to both take him in and help him cut his ties to anyone else in his life he might escape from them to.

It also goes against the argument that Snape was sexually obsessed with Lily that he continued to risk his life in order to protect her son an defeat her murderer for almost two decades after her death. He knew it would neither bring her back from the dead nor bring about forgiveness, and it goes without saying that sex was no longer an option. Framing Snape's motivation as obsession dismisses the realities of the complex and meaningful relationship we form as people, and the lasting, transformative influence we can have on each other, which is what Snape and Lily's story illustrates.

Finally, OP concludes with:

He remained mysterious up till the end and his back-and-forth with treason was very compelling to read about. So I hate him (as a "person") but he is such a good character narrative-wise and he is very interesting to study

OP openly admits to hating Snape, ie. having a bias against him, while stating he is "interesting to study" - except no part of their answer has shown that they've actually done so. Their arguments are unsupported in several ways, one being that they don't offer any evidence, and the other being that none can be found in the source text. What's ironic is that OP seems to resent Snape's subjective bias against Harry (and misinterpret his reasons for it in baseless ways) while also showing the exact same kind of bias against Snape themselves. You don't have to like a character by any means, but claiming that the kind of unfounded, superficial, and unsupported opinions that OP stated in their response have a basis in any kind of study of his character is ludicrous and an insult to the intelligence of anyone reading it.

#long post #I'd say sorry to OP for ripping into their post like this but they think people disagreeing with them politely is mean and hateful so #but yeah sorry not sorry when your argument is so unfounded that it can be shredded with an entire cited essay then maybe #reconsider the claim that your opinions have any basis in study #and look I don't think OP is stupid by any means I think they knew exactly what they were doing and that's why I decided to argue them #even if they won't see it #I usually don't tend to argue with haters and prefer to spend my allotted hellsite time delving into meta but this one got to me

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hinatastinygiant · 6 months

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13 | 死亡

Pairing: Uzui x Fem!Reader

The Emptiness You Left

UZUI'S P.O.V.

After I leave the four women at the restaurant, I head straight to the headquarters of the demon slayers. I need to figure out where this cult house is so I can put an end to them once and for all. My goal is to meet Kagaya and talk to him about what a good first step could be, but before I get anywhere near him, Rengoku pops out of nowhere and stands right in front of me.

"Hello Uzui," he smiles widely.

"Hey, Rengoku. Sorry, but I'm not really in the mood for chatting right now," I shake my head.

"Aw, why not? I'm sure I could be of some use," he nods.

"Fine, just give me a minute to find Kagaya. Then I'll tell you all about it," I reply.

"Oh, he's not here right now," he informs me. "But I am."

I sigh. I guess there's no getting around this. "What do you know about any demon cults around here?"

"Demon cults? Does this have something to do with Y/N?" he asks me.

"Just tell me what you know," I groan.

"Alright," he says, and then he takes a deep breath before continuing, "There's one not far from your home. It's called Eternal Paradise Faith. Supposedly it was founded by a demon named Doma who can control humans with his words. They have been stealing and selling humans for years, and even using the people's own loved ones against them. Demon slayers have been trying to track down their location for a while now."

"How do you know all of that?" I ask, surprised.

"I've been investigating the cult for awhile," he nods. "Ever since a demon slayer who had family in the cult went missing there's been a team of us looking into it. But it's not a popular case because they don't directly target or go after any demon slayers."

"Y/N came from that place," I tell him. "She said Doma was the one who killed her sister."

"What?" Rengoku's eyes widen.

"Yeah, she also said she has a brother there. And now she's hell-bent on going in and saving him, but I refuse to let her."

"Why not?" he questions.

"Because it's too dangerous," I sigh, running a hand through my hair. "And besides, I'm not sure if I even trust her at the moment. She withheld that information for months. I don't know what else she could be hiding."

Rengoku is quiet for a moment, and then he says, "Well she could be very valuable to the situation. You know, since she's not an official demon slayer she could probably walk right into that place and give us some good intel."

I shake my head. There's no way I could let Y/N do that. "She can't. She wants to be in there. I'd lose control of her the second she goes inside."

"What a weird situation. Why did Y/N leave without her brother if she's so protective over him?" Rengoku then questions aloud.

"Because," I sigh, "I think he has similar values to Y/N. He knows demons are bad, and he wants to fight them. They also have reason to believe their mother went missing in that same place."

"Interesting," he muses. "You should talk both of them into being a demon slayer then," Rengoku laughs.

"No chance in hell," I grumble.

"Hey, maybe Y/N is hiding something else. Maybe she knows more than what she's letting on. Or maybe she just needs someone to talk to. Have you thought about that?"

"Yes," I answer, and Rengoku raises an eyebrow. "I talk to her all the time."

Rengoku rolls his eyes. "I mean really talk to her. Have a real heart-to-heart, and not just about her problems."

"She's never asked for a heart-to-heart," I shake my head.

"Of course not, Uzui," Rengoku sighs, throwing his hands up in the air. "What woman in their right mind is going to go up to a man who asks her to call him her master and tell him all of their feelings?"

"Why wouldn't she?"

"You're hopeless, Uzui," Rengoku shakes his head. "You know, if I was you, I'd go home and talk to her. Find out what's really going on, or maybe try to get some useful information out of her."

"I will take care of that myself," I huff, and then I turn around and begin walking away. "Just let me know when Master Ubuyashiki is back, okay?"

"Got it," Rengoku calls out, and I can feel his eyes on my back.

"Good luck!"

With that, I continue on my way, and head back towards my estate. However, before I get home, I find myself distracted by the shops on the streets.

As I pass by the various stands and stalls, my eyes wander over the trinkets and goods for sale.

"Do you see anything you like?" a merchant calls out, waving me over.

"No thanks," I reply.

"Aw, come on. Take a look," the man insists.

I decide to humor him and make my way over. When I arrive at the stall, the man smiles brightly and holds out a small, silver chain with a single pendant attached to it.

"This is a special item," he says, his grin widening. "It's meant to bring happiness and protection. It's perfect for a new girlfriend or wife."

I stare at the necklace in his hand. It's pretty, but I don't think I need something like that.

"No thanks," I say, and I turn away from him.

"Wait," he calls out. "This necklace will protect your loved ones and bring joy to their lives. It helps dispel temptations from the devil."

"What is it?" I question.

"A talisman," he tells me. "It's supposed to help ward off evil."

"How much?" I ask, curiosity getting the best of me.

"Nineteen hundred yen," the merchant replies.

"That's ridiculous," I shake my head.

"No, no," he laughs, shaking his head. "You don't understand, my friend. You won't find this anywhere else. I could sell it to you for nearly double the price, but I can tell there's someone specific you're trying to keep safe."

"Why do you say that?" I ask.

"You have that look," he explains. "It's the look of a man in love."

"In love?" I scoff, shaking my head. "Of course I am. I have my wives for that. What makes you think I'm in love with someone else?"

"I didn't say you were," the man shrugs. "I just know you're trying to protect a woman from something. That's what the talisman is good for."

"You can read me that well?" I chuckle.

"Like an open book," he smiles.

"And how can you tell all of this?" I question, my interest piqued.

"I'm a salesman," he explains. "I've been doing this for a long time, and I've seen enough faces to know when someone's got their eye on another person."

"Really," I murmur. "Interesting. I'll take the necklace. Can you wrap it up for me?"

"Of course, sir," he bows.

The merchant quickly wraps the necklace up and hands it over to me. As soon as the little package is in my hand, I shove it deep into my pocket and hurry home.

The Emptiness You Left

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aftokrator-official · 8 months

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Screenshotting because it's not rebloggable anymore (omitting OP's name for that reason) but this post - more specifically the replies to it - have been bothering me since I saw it a day or so ago and I finally decided to come back and engage lmao. (Source link from OP)

OP's totally right. OpenAI is a garbage company with garbage business practices but this is not the way to do this, people. I'm glad y'all have so much faith in the legal system here, but I don't, and if this goes through it's not going to harm the entities you want it to harm. believe me.

(i am not against AI when used ethically but i think that is a moot point here bc i do not believe OpenAI is an ethical developer of AI tech. anyway)

Here's the "rebuttal" that has been irritating me so much I couldn't leave it alone:

THIS IS NOT REMOTELY TRUE.

First of all, unless I've missed something big, OpenAI has never disclosed the contents of the proprietary dataset they use to train their LLMs. We have no idea whether ChatGPT was trained on George RR Martin's books or not. Presumably, neither does George RR Martin. So all we have to go on is that ChatGPT "knows" characters and details from ASOIAF. Okay.

The problem is that ASOIAF is a massively popular series with some massively popular multimedia adaptations and spinoffs, and processing the text of the novels is far from the only way ChatGPT could have learned to produce those details.

Let's try a little experiment.

GPT-2 is an open source model released by OpenAI when they were just starting out. It works more or less the same way as ChatGPT and its ilk, just on a vastly smaller scale. It's much, much more limited, but the underlying algorithms work on the same concepts. So, what would GPT-2 give us if we ask it for a summary of a hypothetical GRRM novel?

I typed up the first paragraph here, and GPT-2 gave me the rest. (GPT-2 isn't a chatbot, but works more like autocomplete, so I didn't prompt it directly.)

Okay, I have a feeling that plot doesn't make much sense as a prequel, but hey, it's AI (and an elderly one at that), it's not going to be particularly good at this left to its own devices. And look, it DID pull out a few details specific to ASOIAF - Jon Snow, the Night Watch, the Wildlings. So case closed, right? GPT-2 must have had ASOIAF novels in its training data too, just like its nasty little great-grandchild.

Except we know what was in GPT-2's dataset - it was trained on a 40GB corpus of data scraped from publicly-available web pages, specifically pages linked from Reddit. We don't have all the exact texts that were used, but we DO have the top 1000 domains contained in the dataset. All of which is a hell of a lot more information than we have on ChatGPT.

What websites are ranked #75 and #160 in the list of 1000 domains? Why, it's Fanfiction.net and AO3. Hmm, I wonder where it learned about the very popular fictional characters from George RR Martin's novels! (Certainly not just from fanfiction, either - sites like IMDB and Wikia were ranked much higher in the list of sources, and entertainment news and fan wiki articles would also contain a lot of text about ASOIAF/GoT.)

You can certainly argue that using these websites as training data is also unethical or should be illegal - but that's not what's being argued in this lawsuit. As far as I know, ChatGPT has never spat out a perfect recreation (or even a vaguely paraphrased recreation) of any of GRRM's writing, so the only evidence for violation of his copyright in this case is the generation of what is essentially a machine-created derivative work. That is really, really worrying, even if you don't think the machine should be allowed to do that. I'm not a lawyer, just a fanfic writer and software developer, so I have no idea how legitimate the legal argument here is... but it's going down a road that is very dangerous for fandom, whether you believe it is or not.

#ai #discourse #ugh #not going into my thoughts on the ethics of ai training GENERALLY here but #i think openai is shady af but i am not convinced there is anything truly illegal about how chatgpt was created #or any way to codify that into law without hurting far more people than it protects #anyway.#going to go back to trying my darnedest to ignore the ai discourse now it stresses me tf out

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beserkerjewel · 9 months

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Salam. Popping in as a fellow Muslim in fandom to tell you that you're acting in a very un-Islamic way by spreading lies and assigning bad intentions to people who engage with fandom differently than you do. I'm not here to argue or try to convince anyone of anything, only to say your viewpoint is entirely lacking any sort of nuance. How can you claim that someone who writes darker fanfic, for example, is a "groomer" when they themselves might be writing it to deal with trauma they endured? Your arguments sound a lot like the nonsense hate groups like M*ms for L*berty spews to justify banning books by LGBT/POC authors - I'm a librarian and hear this stuff on the daily at this point, and there's a very strong overlap between conservative rhetoric and your claims about proshipping which I find uncomfortable. I don't consider myself a proshipper or an anti but I firmly believe in don't like, don't read. Islam says to mind your own business (“Part of your good practice of Islam is to leave whatever does not concern you.” ); if you don't like a fic, move on to one that you do like. I don't carw whether or not you reply to this. I don't follow you. “O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.” “O people who believe by their tongues whereas Faith does not touch their hearts! Do not backbite Muslims and do not look for their faults. Whoever finds faults in others, Allah will find faults in them and expose them even in their home!”

I have to say that "you're not a real Muslim if you decry pedophilia" is a wild take to get in my inbox.

I'm gonna preface this by saying that I do not know if you're actually Muslim because you're on anon, and I've seen many anonymous askers lie about their identities to get a leg up in an argument.

If you are Muslim: I cannot even imagine what kind of mental gymnastics it takes to 1. Tell me that I am committing a sin by calling out pedophile shippers and 2. (The most audacious) quote directly from the Qur'an to that end. You think sitting idly by and allowing these things to happen and actually participating in it makes you a good Muslim? It doesn't. It makes you a coward who hides behind scripture to justify your actions. How dare you try to use the Qur'ran, Allah's word, as a bludgeon to shame and beat others with? What is wrong with you?

If you are not Muslim, what can I say but die?

#asked and answered #Anonymous #I'm not gonna tell you that you'll burn in Hell because that's a sin and it's not my call #but you need to think

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knightkneeler · 1 year

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hi i was wondering if you could explain your found family tweet? like are you saying it's ok to ship adopted siblings or? i'm sorry i just don't rly get it

I'm gonna be real, the way you've phrased this makes me think you're probably not asking it in good faith. I will try to explain anyway. those tweets were about two separate but related issues.

re: the shipping: I like a couple of ships in my primary fandom (Fire Emblem: Three Houses/Fire Emblem Warriors: Three Hopes) that are sometimes considered to be pseudo-familial relationships by some people who don't ship them romantically. I'm specifically thinking of Edelgard/Lysithea and Dimitri/Felix. it's completely fine to not see these relationships as romantic. it's completely fine to see them as platonic or pseudo-familial. it's even completely fine to dislike the ships on the basis of reading them as pseudo-familial! this is very common with Edelys in particular, for a number of reasons I don't care to get into. I don't have a problem with it on its face.

however, there have been cases where people have posted in the ship tags or directly messaged artists & writers of these ships to harangue them for shipping them, or try to "correct" the shipping interpretation, because of their personal interpretation that these characters are "like siblings." I recall a few big incidents in Dimilix fandom where someone or other who didn't ship them tweeted in the tag that they were like brothers. a friend of mine received a message a couple of months ago about Edelys in the same vein. I often get replies to tweets about Edelys (or other Lysithea ships like Hilda or Leonie) from people saying they see Lysithea as the other character's little sister. this tendency is what I was bitching about. Edelgard and Lysithea do not canonically consider one another sisters. they are not related, not adopted, not step-siblings, not even childhood friends. they met as teenagers in war crime school. again, it's fine to interpret or headcanon their relationship as sibling-like! but that is one interpretation/headcanon. their relationship in the text can be interpreted any number of ways. I personally see it as romantic, and I think it's annoying when people try to tell me that interpretation is incorrect or morally wrong, somehow.

the other issue is that the popularity of interpreting close-knit social circles as "found families" has led to a trend in fandom where rather than a non-hierarchical network of unconditional love and support, the "family" is a recreation of the nuclear family; one or more characters are designated the "parents" of the group. this doesn't happen all that often in FE3H, probably because the groups are really big and the characters are generally close in age, but I've seen it in other fandoms that I'm not in, and it's bled over into media in general. a lot of people have held up the manga/anime Spy x Family as a "found family" narrative when it is literally a mother character, a father character, and a child character who (afaik, I haven't read/watched it) are not married/related. this is just a nuclear family with the serial numbers filed off.

the concept of a chosen family is that these are peers you can trust and rely on for anything, but who are not your biological family. my irl best friend is like family to me. I don't consider him to be "like a brother," but the heart of our friendship is unconditional love. we're always welcome under the other's roof. if we need to talk, the other's willing to listen. nuclear families have direct power structures. the child(ren) is/are subordinate to the parent(s). a parent has direct and absolute authority over their child. a circle of peers who provide unconditional love is not the same, and people should stop trying to draw analogues between "chosen family" and the heteropatriarchal nuclear family.

I hope this helped.

#asks #anon

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seresuns · 1 year

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to coffinbelltower/@gonnabreakhisheart/apeirophobia (and all your other handles):

so. coming back after months of hiatus to this. i'm going to make it clear once and for all. idgaf if you believe me, but i have the dms to prove my side. here are the facts:

i didn't send that screenshot to topguncallouts. i don't engage with the equivalent of fandom tabloids. as far as i'm concerned this issue was over a long time ago (Sept 2022) y'all just brought it up again and idk why.

i didn't report you to the tgm server mods. i sent the screenshots of our convo to a friend, because your statements about trans ppl and writing about trans ppl made me uncomfortable, and i tried to correct you, but you didn't listen. and it made me anxious. so anxious that i physically felt it. my hands shook after that conversation. i sent it to a friend because i wanted to vent, and i wanted a trans person to check if i had handled the situation correctly as i am a cis woman.

after seeing the whole convo this friend did ask if i wanted to report you. and i said no, because it happened in my dms. it was directly traceable to me, and to be fair it wasn't a public incident on the server. it was, simply, a disagreement between you and me. no, you don't get to know who the friend is. they're trans and i don't want you interrogating them instead.

our conversation happened around Sept 9 2022. i vented to a friend later that day. you were banned from the tgm server Sept 26 2022. that same day you also banned me from the after dark server without explanation, but i suspected the reason already as you had deleted all your messages to me (which, an innocent person acting in good faith would totally do /s). when i mentioned to mods about it, they apologized to me that my private dms, which were showed/brought/forwarded to them, were part of the reason you were banned. you should have stopped to think. if i'd been the one to report you, it would have been closer to Sept 9, not weeks later around the time you would be arguing with tgm server mods. you would have been banned immediately because those dms contained much worse than what was posted in callouts.

they were part of the reason you were banned. but you were first reprimanded for arguing with mods. you know that.

any reply you make to this should be public, or in my inbox and i will publish it. despite our disagreement, i thought you were my friend and you were capable of listening. but look at what believing in that got me. i'm getting dms i was being brought up in callouts. i've said nothing even though you banned me from after dark server--when after dark server was my idea in the first place. i haven't complained even though i was told you wanted me banned from the tgm server in return, calling me several things, the mildest of which is i'm a security and privacy breach which should not be tolerated. i took that all. i kept my silence. and yet you and those anons still have the audacity to drop my name in these petty issues.

i won't tolerate any more disrespect. if you send something rude or assume the worst of me again and spread it. i'll drop the full screenshots. and trust me, context will not clear your name. it'll just show ppl how much worse the things they don't know are. otherwise, leave me alone. i don't care if anyone believes my side. i know the truth, and i know i didn't betray or hurt people or lie, despite what you or anons or dms will say about me.

#replies #you are asking the wrong person the wrong questions #dealing with this on the week my dog died is not improving my already terrible mood #and to the anon who dragged me into this #idk how you got that screenshot but i don't think you meant well posting it in the equivalent of fandom tabloids #anon will do anything for drama and clout and it's disappointing

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northropi · 11 months

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So I'm going to be using this more, for real this time.

In an effort to Holy Fucking Shit They're Considering Cisgender A Slur Now What The Fuck, I am soft-leaving Twitter. For real now. What do I mean? I will not post anything "directly."

I'll still like, follow, reply, retweet, whatever, but any media or in-depth text (so like also media) will no longer be natively placed on Twitter.

From now on anything I put on Twitter will be links to other sites.

It also seems inevitable at this point that I will eventually have to leave Twitter entirely because harassment is becoming more frequent.

While I'm not big enough to be readily targeted, bigots are trawling the trending tab to find anyone who comments on a recurring topic and start gnawing them.

I've never been a full "no ethical consumption under capitalism" person, but up until this, I could at least blow Elon's bigotry off as "oh, so we happen to have a bigoted owner on this site, well not gonna pay his ass so I'm fine in the short-term." But this policy, which seems to have gone through, is probably the first time something actively bigoted and not just generic right-lib "hey we should let bigots talk because censorship bad" has been written into the ToS.

To strongarm Cis out of our vocabulary leaves us with no words to describe Cis people exclusively (which is itself a pretty damning reason why it's not a fucking slur, but I don't think at this point that anyone who says they think it is is doing so in good faith). We have to use the word bigots want us to use to describe cis people.

Normal.

And every time we speak it, they'll lick their slimy lips and relish in the implication that, by exclusion, we have admitted we are not.

BlueSky likely will mark the end of Twitter being an even neutral space for vulnerable people in terms of community, though maybe I'm talking out my ass there because I hear some shit about BlueSky too- so sub BlueSky for whatever more solid Twitter-style multipurpose high-throughput platform follows and actually is good if I have to eat those words, I guess.

It, or the hypothetical next thing, will bleed Twitter of users who are, you know, not fucking horrible, and in turn, create a selective pressure that turns Twitter into a decidedly bigot-friendly site. This is the cost of being run by someone who thinks "free speech" should mean taking the wrong answer to the paradox of tolerance, and an idol to rightoids and conspiracy theorists who need that "gifted" Christ-figure and a supposed force of opposition to exist, even if they have to rip their brain in two to characterize that opposition as the establishment while, being conservatives, every single stance they take is pro-establishment.

You people ruined schizoposting, you know that?

Newgrounds will be for images with occasional text updates, this for long but relatively rough posts, Wix for more encyclopedia-style content as I intend to use it in a wiki-like capacity with secondary blog purposes (why not use wiki for that, you ask? because it looked like a lot to learn up front and there seemed to be like twelve different wiki formats, Wordpress/Wix was just easier but might change later).

I'll also aim for some filler on Youtube in the form of just video game clips so I can feed the algorithm a bit and try to be more active in exploiting what free time I have to actually use my mic for voiced stuff including, possibly, short streams, though that begs the question of where I'll be doing those.

As for Tumblr, a friend offered me to help me learn its syntax or whatever you'd even call it in this case to get it formatted. I wouldn't count on it replacing Newgrounds yet and that may be my primary art site from here on out (I've expressed concern about their harsh policy against WIPs and certain modeling programs that might include my VRoid work, but the latter would obviously be fine here and the former can still be posted in a publicly accessible capacity to NG, just not promoted in the art portal- hopefully I get "scouted" there sooner than later but nothing is a dealbreaker yet). The problem ofc is because, well... First off, NSFW. "Oh but you can post-" yes. I know. You can do some lewd stuff and fetish content fine as long as it doesn't hit a particular bar of "non-artistic" nudity. However, a lot of my stuff is raunchy fucking hypercock bellybulging cum cum madness. I can't just fly under that restriction and not need to eventually find another outlet.

Second, I really gotta handle these fucking bots. Not sure how many I have still as I imagine a lot are getting cleaned out by mods, but it seems follower notifs on this site have been going into junk for a while due to sheer frequency.

I'm also thinking about if I have it in me to forgive DeviantArt for their AI debacle, but the site's stance on it is concerning and I fear that there's at best going to be a ton of it flooding the site, which, while acceptable if they hold their promise of being able to opt out future works (remember, the opt-out doesn't apply to any works put up before- you can't un-train a neural network, so fuck that sideways), will be frustrating to interact with. I'm also going to look into ArtStation a bit, I recall them doing something dubious but I'm not sure of the status of it since. I actually already have an account there, for Project G.L.U.T.T.'s demo mostly...

#twitter refugees #long reads #art #vtuber

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sweaterkittensahoy · 1 year

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So, something like two or three years ago, I was very active in twitter SVU fandom and very loudly named the names of a set of bullies within that fandom. Specifically, Barisi fandom.

I ended up referring to that group of people as the "Summer Block Party" because not only did they block me (I had receipts; they didn't like that), but they also blocked people they knew were friends of mine who were not directly connected to naming names.

I bring this up because I still follow some SVU people on twitter even though I'm not active in the fandom anymore. But more noticeable than THAT, I DON'T follow a few people I followed after the initial Summer Block Party.

The people I don't follow? The ones who reached out and said, "OMG it's so bad those people were bullying people and you have receipts, but also, they've never been mean to ME, so I'm just going to keep being friends with you both."

And I replied to that as I have my whole life, "Okay. You do whatever you think is best."

But at that point in my life (and at this "gonna be 40 in 2-1/2 hours" point in my life), I knew a ticking clock when I heard one.

Months later, I got attacked by fucking rabid pro-shippers who accused me of a LOT of shitty stuff because I said sometimes art is bad. I did not advocate banning bad art or limiting bad art. I said some art is bad. And that having a personal opinion that some art is bad is perfectly reasonable.

I got harassed for DAYS by a couple of people. DAYS for saying "Sometimes art is bad." Like, they were going back several days and trying to start fights with me over other things I said that they didn't like (anything I said). When I realized they wouldn't just calm the fuck down and leave me alone, I went to block them. And when I went to their pages to block them, I saw that I had mutuals who followed them.

I reached out to those mutuals, and I said, "Hey, this person has been harassing me for days, and you follow them. Wanted to give you the heads up because you may not have seen the behavior, and I figure you don't wanna follow anyone who does this to someone."

The response from everyone who justified the "I can be friends with both of you" when I proved the bullying of the Summer Block Party? Literally every time: "Well, they haven't done anything to ME, so I'm going to stay friends with them."

These were people I'd been friendly-to-friends with for YEARS. I had absolute proof of being harassed. And still, they said, "Well, but they've never done anything to ME DIRECTLY."

As I get ready to turn 40, here's my advice: Never ever fucking trust anyone whose response to proof of someone being shitty is "Well, but they haven't hurt ME."

Because that person can't see past the end of their own nose, and they will NOT be a good and faithful friend to you. They will eventually decide that YOU are the one who is the problem even as you show them unquestionable proof that you are NOT.

#friendship #life advice #svu fandom is fucking wild #it's people geniunely interested in talking and growing and helping #and then a bunch of fucking assholes #and i'm saying that as a fandom old of 25 years #imagine being such a shitshow of a fandom #that i notice

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effeminate-wastrel · 1 year

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Hey, when you reblog someone's post can you please put your comments in the tags instead of directly under a post. I'm certain you mean well but it's generally considered rude to add on to someone's post

Short answer? No Long answer: I'm going to address this ask in good faith and explain my reasoning, even though "no" is a complete sentence and I don't owe an explanation to anyone. The only reason I ended up spending over 40 minutes answering this and making my feelings clear is because I have codependency issues along with (probably) having autism, and have recently started putting more effort into dropping masks, listening to my own feelings, and allowing myself to disagree with people. Part of that is just being more clear with myself and I decided I wanted to share it on my blog. Firstly: I would 100% be willing to have a conversation with you about this, but I would prefer a direct message over an anonymous ask. An anonymous ask immediately raises my defenses. It doesn't even grant me the basic respect of knowing who I'm talking to and turns what should be a private conversation into this, which I have to post on the off chance you might read it. Secondably: If this is behavior that's "considered rude" by general consensus, this is literally the first time I've ever heard this. That doesn't mean it's *not,* but it does mean I have 0 reason to believe that what you're saying is true when it fully contradicts my experience on this website. If you had said "*some people* don't like when you reblog their content and comment on it" I would definitely understand and respect that to the best of my ability. But that only works if i KNOW WHO FEELS THAT WAY and since you've asked ANONYMOUSLY then what am i supposed to do? I’m editing this after the fact, I messaged a friend and this is something that has apparently become commonly accepted as good etiquette since when I was on tumblr years ago and when i came back. The rest of my points still stand though, I won’t be changing how I choose to run my blog based on this artificial constraint that I don’t understand. Maybe that’s just the autism talking. Thirdly: what are you even talking about. the entire functionality of this website is built around reblogging and posts that have multiple additions Fourthly: it's my blog and i choose how i get to run it. If that doesn't gel with your blog and how you choose to run it, then block me, that's what it's there for But anonymously telling me I'm being rude, appealing to some general consensus which may or may not exist doesn't feel like my humanity is being respected, it feels like someone trying to get me to do what they want without even the courtesy of a conversation about it. (if you're still reading, asker, this next part's really not about you, so don't take it personally) I've put up with parents, teachers, bosses, partners, friends doing this to me for nearly 30 fucking years and i'm not doing it anymore. When you default to what others expect from you so deeply that you become incapable of knowing what you want or who you even are, and you build your entire life and self-conception around what other people think about you, you end up in this place where you don't allow yourself to even consider that you're the wrong fucking gender, that maybe you're neurodivergent and need support, that maybe you're being taken advantage of, whatever it might be. Let me be clear, I'm not blaming or insinuating the asker is doing anything even remotely as damaging as this. I'm only writing about my own experience with neurodiversity, masking, and codependence for my own sake on my own blog. also lemme know in the replies if you think this is something that actually is “generally considered rude” or not, cuz i am genuinely curious now. *edited*

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pudgyroo · 1 year

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to the anon that sent me an ask about reconsidering following a certain user because of some stuff they post, not mad but some stuff needs addressing....

first off i don't follow them. in fact i've had that user blocked for over a year because of dodgy shit i've seen in the past, including some of the stuff you brought up

but i don't know how you think i follow them bearing in mind i have my follow list set to private and as far as i am aware i haven't directly reblogged anything from them. i follow under 400 blogs - in comparison i've blocked over 3000. whilst i have lots of blogs blocked, i don't have many of the urls filtered/tag blocked so i don't know if i reblog something with a blocked blog in it

i have a full time job. i work 5 days a week and including travelling to work it is 11 hours a day. i really don't have time to be constantly checking the url of each user on every post when i'm relaxing on tumblr in my free time. i love my job but with the nature of it, i work intense blocks of weeks/months throughout the year which leads to frequent burnouts (i do get frequent time off but sometimes it's not enough to completely recover from a past burnout) - again another reason i typically don't post my own content, struggle with replying to asks or messages (still appreciate you though ^-^), and look at all the blogs in a post. i'm on tumblr for fun not as a second job to assess everyone when i'm already burnt out

like i said i'm not mad about this but i've had others in the past do the same and i want to set the record straight surrounding my boundaries on this:

by all means let me know (with proof!!) if someone i currently consistently reblog from has done things that i've mentioned i'm against (i'm talking recently not something from a year ago or older) but ultimately i will make the final decisions on who i decide to follow. i also won't likely publically post this info either if i do unfollow

please don't send me asks telling me about the op or commenter of a post is shitty unless the post itself is literally the shitty thing (e.g. new untagged terf rhetoric)

i know this was sent in good faith so i'm genuinely not mad but i just needed to make my boundaries clear on this due to both this anon and some messages in the past

#og posts #random rambles #asks

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valkyrieandstrangeridingaragorn · 2 years

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Hi I am not too familiar with all the details but have some questions. I hope you don’t mind answering them. I thank you in advance for your time!

I think Tony and Peggy are more of the ends-justify-the-means kind. Is that why you are anti them?

I’m firmly Team Cap, I admire his steadfastness in principles though I wonder about Steve’s unquestioning faith in the flawed American ideals. Could that be also why he didn’t suspect Hydra has infiltrated Shield? But is that also why he is even more against Sokovia Accords?

Could you comment on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0XWTA1n-6M&t=27s ?

Hey there dear anon, I'm always happy to answer asks so thank you for yours. I wasn't expecting this to get so long so my most sincere apologies! Also, I get political on this one, just a heads up. More after the cut.

First things first: my main issue with Stark and Peggy is the framing. I like heroes and villains and everything in-between, it's the self-righteousness that I don't like and if the framing positions them as good people who have never done anything wrong in their lives it tends to get on my nerves lol If those two had been portrayed as what they are I wouldn't have minded them all that much.

That video was interesting (thank you for sharing) and I agree on certain points but disagree on others, mostly on the assumption that Steve believes the American myths, that "he's incompatible with a rejection" of those myths and he "can't coexist with an acknowledgement of the fact that America was built by slaves, etc".

And I disagree with it because while we don't have Steve openly talking about it, it's quite clear in his actions and words that those myths wouldn't be something he'd believe in. Steve is portrayed in these movies as a socialist, but not the way the Americans understand that word, he's a European socialist. He may not speak of immigration but he protects Wanda and is completely against her internment in the compound, he speaks of her and Pietro in AoU as kids who "are at war" - and that's a direct reply to Maria's "WE are not at war".

And this scene in AoU (yes it was deleted but still counts):

He takes off the helmet and fights without it. To me this shows he doesn't like that anyone would ever think of him as a fascist but he understands why someone would look at his suit and the flag it represents and come to the conclusion that he's "one of them". He's aware of the past, he's no fool.

In CW he may not speak directly of it but it is implied in his words that their job as heroes and protectors is not a matter of borders, he treats everyone exactly the same no matter where they're from - as proved in TFA when Erskine asks him if him being German is a problem and Steve immediately says no. Make no mistake, saying that is no minor feat, many people at the time wouldn't have been so sure.

Also, another thing I disagree with is that the video claims Steve is portrayed as the last bastion for truth and justice, etc and we have him and only him when it comes to defending those ideals, but that's not true at all. And I'm not referring to the other heroes, when he gives his speech in TWS his last line is "the price of freedom is high, always has been, but it's a price I'm willing to pay. And if I'm the only one then so be it, but I'm willing to bet I'm not". One of the best things about Steve is that he believes in people, he trusts that there are others just like him who have faith in the same values he does, and in TWS we see just that in Sharon, in that other guy who refuses to launch the ships, there are many people who can and do stand up to Hydra, and Steve knows that.

Then this "Steve represents the old-fashioned" as if that was a bad thing. People in modern times really need to acknowledge that the fights for human rights didn't start with Twitter. This belief that everything in the past was anti civil rights and if it comes from the 50's then it's necessarily conservative is just plain wrong. Whoever watches a movie from those times is very likely to see women having so much more agency than they do now, plots with feminist points and while yes, some of them might be misogynistic and racist, a lot of them are not.

Old-fashioned doesn't equate republican any more than modern doesn't equate progressive. When Steve is talking to Fury in TWS he admits the SSR did certain things that made it hard for him to sleep at night, that they had to "compromise". This line would seemingly agree with the video but the truth is Steve doesn't know even half of what was done in that time after he crashed the plane. Hell, he was surprised to hear about Zola and he didn't even know about Operation Paperclip until Natasha told him. What else didn't he know?

Also, to pretend that freedom and justice are inherent American ideals is hilariously ridiculous which is what the video does. Every time they mention Steve talking about them they seem to think he's parroting some weird fascistic republican views when that couldn't be further from the truth.

Steve is patriotic? Yes, of course. Why do they think he stands up to some people in the government? It's not because he's America-centric or believes that America was built by angels and there was nothing wrong done in how the country presented itself in the past, it's precisely because he knows it that he fights against it.

Those ideals are not specific to America and Steve knows this. He's the son of Irish immigrants who moved to the US in a time where they wouldn't be exactly welcome (we all have seen movies about this, Steve grew up during that time), he was disabled at a time where eugenics were in vogue, and he lived his early life in a specific part of NY where he'd be surrounded by artists and the leftist movement (as left as it can get in America, that is) and he went to Art School. Steve has never been conservative. [There are great metas on this site about this].

I get the feeling though that the video gets a couple things mixed up. I'm in Europe and with the recent rise of the far-right here the fascists have been parroting the same idea over and over again: that they're all about patriotism. And so they act like the flag, the anthem, the army... in short, anything that symbolizes their country is inherently their property. This of course is bullshit.

And so I think that seeing Steve wearing those colours makes the author of the video believe that he's in full support of the American way but that's not it. I can grab the EU flag and hang it in my room and that does not mean I'm fine with all the shit we have done in the past, it doesn't mean I don't acknowledge it or the mistakes we're making now. Look, I'm in Spain, I know what we did centuries ago. But the very act of loving one's flag is not justifying your past, it's acknowledging it and knowing you can do better, that you can be held accountable. The flag is not property of a few, it's property of the whole. And Steve wears it because he wants to do better. Also, the video should have made a distinction between Steve and Cap.

Regarding your questions, he did show he suspected Shield back in The Avengers when he discovered the Hydra gadgets and confronted Fury about it in the helicarrier. And yeah, he's completely against the Accords because they're a direct violation of civil rights. Notice how in the chat with Fury he's thinking of society as a whole, not just the US. It's not a matter of idealism either, Steve is not someone who thinks people should love each other and fly on unicorns, he's seen the worst of humanity, he's seen first-hand what people with power do, some of it good and some of it bad. That scene with Fury shows pretty well how both of them were raised in different times.

And last but not least, Civil War! The points the video makes are not exactly to my liking.

First they say Steve kept Stark in the dark about his parents' deaths: Steve didn't know it had been Bucky, he had no way of knowing it had been Bucky, he could assume it might have been him but he didn't know.

Then they claim what Steve does in the film is protect Bucky and frankly that point has been made ad nauseum and it's not true, Steve's stance against the Accords has nothing to do with Buck, he's against them in principle.

They also say Stark wanted to sign the Accords so they'll do "less missions" and "cause less carnage"? He wanted to sign because he felt guilty and didn't want any sort of accountability at all for whatever he did, that's all. The UN wasn't going with "let's sign these Accords so there will be less violence and more accountability" The accountability angle was propaganda, nothing more.

I do agree with one thing though, CW is not ideological and that's the writers' fault and Disney's. They didn't want to tackle that because the only way you can talk about it is by having the characters literally discussing civil rights for everyone. Imo if there's someone who portrays those 'conservative' American ideals it's Stark, not Steve.

But the thing I dislike the most is when they say "Steve's position is in the right and the America state in the wrong, an elected government legitimately elected by the people, and Steve stands against it". Yes, and? I don't need to remind anyone that Hitler was legitimately elected, do I? And we need to be careful when it comes to a character standing up to a particular action the government has taken and trying to paint that as the character standing up to the entire government - those two are not the same thing.

It's not that everyone in the US congress is a villain, it's that some are. It's not that the system is inherently wrong, it's that some people in it are doing it wrong and need to be held accountable. To claim that since people had voted for them they should be allowed to do whatever they want is... concerning.

So I'm sorry but no, I disagree with Steve being a paragon of America's exceptionalism. The movies are America-centred, that's for sure, but to claim Steve falls prey to that and he's some form of defender of those ideals, that he protects the belief that America never did anything wrong in history and that they're better than everyone else is a wrong assumption - believe me, if that was the case people like me wouldn't like him! Let me finish this with words from the man himself:

“I believe in the American dream. But THIS…this is some sort of NIGHTMARE!”

“You people telling me how I just don’t understand? When it’s you people—you clever people—who don’t get it. I don’t let people die because it’s the lesser of two evils, or expedient, or because it serves the greater good… I don’t compare the act against something else—I see someone who needs help… And I help. You think it’s a weakness. You think it’s simple… But you’re wrong. It’s what makes us human… Which is exactly what we’re supposed to be fighting for. I know who I am. I rescue the helpless. I raise up the hopeless. I don’t measure people’s lives… I save them.”

“Patriotism taken too far is fanaticism. No matter who you are or where you’re from. Foreigners aren’t your enemy, son. I’m the son of immigrants. When I was a kid it was my father’s people, the Irish, who were looked down on. Called filthy foreigners. Discriminated against. Is that the xenophobic America you want? All religions, all nationalities, we all want the same thing. To see our children grow strong. To provide safety to our families. To live in quiet times. Peace, son. Isn’t that why we became soldiers in the first place? To fight for a peaceful world?”

“There’s nothing patriotic about corruption or cover-ups…or defending them. But exposing them, well, that takes a hero.”

Sorry this got so long 🙊

#Steve Rogers #Captain America

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