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raven-at-the-writing-desk · 2 years

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Hello, there, Raven! How are you doing? I hope you’re doing well. So I’ve read your post about the pros and cons of TWST being an otome game, and I have to say, that was a very good analysis.

I’ve been giving your analysis some thought, and I was pretty disheartened when I saw how you say TWST shouldn’t focus on romance and that it was almost impossible to do so. Well, I happen to have a few ideas on how thinks would work if TWST were an otome game.

Now, for my idea of an TWST otome game, it would be completely unlike the usual otome game. I still believe that “true love can conquer all”. In fact, I believe that love is the one of most powerful things in the world. My fortune even said: “A loved one is of the utmost importance at this time.”

In my POV of realistic love, the boys would face their problems themselves. While their s/o can’t solve their problems for them, the knowledge that their s/o is cheering them on behind them, giving them the courage to face and solve their problems head on is what I consider “love” to be.

No matter how helpless you are, no matter how little strength you have, as long as you have love, you can still keep moving forward, if only at a crawl.

In another line, you mentioned, “If TWST were an otome, Overblot battles would be resolved with the power of the protagonist hugging the boy and confessing their love, or the OB boy snapping back to their senses when he realizes he had hurt his S/O.” You’re right about this, it doesn’t work that way. Here’s how it works.

The protagonist would tell the OB boy what he did wrong and empathize with him, hugging him and giving him words of advice and encouragement. After that, they befriend the OB boy.

In order to develop a relationship, you have to build up bonds of friendship first. Eventually, over time, those bonds of friendship you have with the boys will develop into love.

Love takes time, understanding, patience and trust. It doesn’t happen instantly. The more time you spend together with people, the stronger the bonds get.

That’s what TWST should be about, not just about romance, but also developing good relationships, learning from your mistakes and improving yourself, working together to overcome obstacles and being your true self.

I don't mean to offend you in any way, this is just my honest opinion. What do you think?

[Referencing this post!]

***Please note: throughout this post, I will mostly be using the term “dating sim” in place of “otome” so as to be more gender inclusive to my readers. This will also carry over to all future posts on the subject.***

Hi, I’m glad that you enjoyed it 😅 but I just want to clarify something: I never said in the original post that “TWST shouldn’t focus on romance”. TWST is already a game that doesn’t focus on romance (with the only overtly “romantic” content we’ve gotten being Ghost Marriage, which is mostly a parody). However, I also very clearly stated that there is nothing wrong with wanting a TWST dating sim or enjoying romantic TWST content. I just wanted to share my honest and critical analysis of the otome genre in general, because I think it’s an interesting topic of discussion. There is a difference between explaining why I’m doubtful that a concept would work (while not completely shutting down the idea) and saying, “this should not be real” (which, again, I did not say).

What I did say is that I don’t think that what TWST is right now would work well with the traditional structure and tropes of a dating sim. They are very different kinds of games with very different end goals in mind. That’s why I ended the original post by saying TWST would need to be considerably and carefully rewritten and restructured to make it better suit a new genre. A great deal of the reason why people love TWST is because of its fleshed-out characters and its interesting story, and both of these elements could be watered down in a genre shift because what TWST is and what dating sims strive to do misalign so much.

I understand that you may personally believe in “true love conquers all” (and I’m happy that you’re able to find comfort in that), but I must point out that that belief isn’t really something that TWST itself adheres to. The way the main boys act especially doesn’t go along with that way of thinking. They barely believe or trust in the concepts of basic friendship and goodwill (they express disgust and annoyance at the Seven Dwarves’ altruism and determination to work together, and they’re quick to deny accusations of being close to their peers), let alone true love. In Ghost Marriage, many of the boys show they are shocked and confused at Eliza’s (the Ghost Bride) passionate pursuit of her “ideal prince”. Ace straight up tells Eliza that the “ideal prince” doesn’t exist, and it is those lines proclaiming that one needs to be more realistic about their expectations that end up saving the day. Idia (in his Groom-for-a-Day card) has many home screen lines in which he outright mocks the idea of “true love” and “happily ever afters”. When Eliza realizes she is in love with one of her ghost guards and claims that her “love” healed his wounds, the boys feel awkward and say that they don’t understand this turn of events. It is Crowley that has to end the event off with the classic line of “and they lived happily ever after”.

Ghost Marriage is TWST poking fun of the tropes of romantic media, and it is able to do so effectively because of its fairy tale romance roots in Disney but with the cynical bite of the NRC cast. Because of this, it can be tonally jarring to try and stuff TWST into the mold of a dating sim, the latter of which often does more readily conform to the idea that “love will conquer all”. The kind of characters that TWST has generally aren’t very receptive of that same concept, and that creates a conflict between the core of TWST and the demands of the dating sim genre.

A large part of change is first acknowledging your issues and being willing to accept attempts to correct it. In this case, “true love” is being recommended as the “fix”, and, again, I don’t think most of the TWST boys would be very accepting of that (and some would likely be unwilling to change altogether, such as Floyd, who despises being told what to do or having his freedom restrained). Part of the point of TWST is that the boys are appealing because they aren’t great people. They are imperfect and morally grey. A dating sim would most likely try and “fix” those imperfections or frame them as “bad” until the protagonist comes along and makes it all better. This can create another tonal issue, in which the genre calls for patching up the boys whereas the characters don’t always desire that.

Of course the boys need to face their own problems themselves, but consider that not all the boys will even believe they have problems to begin with, or that not all the boys necessarily want to address their “problems” (as they may already relish in what they’re currently doing). I also think that it is a great fallacy to think that having a “S/O behind them cheering them on” is a blanket resource that the boys all need and want. Each person is unique and reacts to trauma in a very different way, so you cannot generalize that they should be treated and supported the same way. Yes, having a support system can be helpful, but it doesn’t guarantee that the one receiving that support will like it or want it. Some may perceive that unwavering support as pity. Some might feel guilty or like they’re being a burden. Some may think of that support as being too smothering or as a sign that their S/O lacks faith in them. Some might lash out. When the support isn’t being accepted as intended, it can hurt the one providing it too, and it isn’t realistic to expect the S/O to just suck it up and keep supporting their partner anyway (as that can be mentally damaging too). I personally know of long-term relationships in which the person providing support got upset at the recipient because they weren’t being “receptive enough” to the support being provided. No one is that patient, kind, or understanding to put aside all of their own frustrations and obligations just to make space for their partner’s. In the first place, it isn’t their responsibility to be their partner’s secondary therapist (each person needs to put their OWN mental wellbeing first, no matter how much they love and care for another person). Knowing when it is appropriate to step back and take a breather is, in my opinion, much more important than cheerleading them at all times. The latter just wears on both parties 💦

It’s not just the “S/O fixes all their love interest’s problems” that is the issue with dating sims, it’s also the weird expectation that the “S/O’s support can be the emotional crutch that helps the love interest better themselves”. It doesn’t take into account individual differences and reactions and just accepts that the presence of love itself is all that is needed, and that unconditional love somehow has no detriments. It also imposes this naive expectation for a S/O to always be there for their partner and to put their partner’s health over their own health. That’s not only unrealistic, but it also unhealthy.

What I want to ask is this: if love can keep you moving forward no matter how helpless you are or how little strength you have (as you say it does), what is it about romantic love specifically that makes it “better” than platonic love? I’m pretty certain that friends and family can also provide support to someone who is struggling (just as much as they can be hurt by it), so I’m genuinely not sure why it is always romantic love that is pushed as the thing that will help, rather than platonic love, something that TWST already champions (because wouldn’t you naturally usually spend more time with friends and family than with your partner unless you literally live with them???). I’m only speaking in general terms here, not just in the context of a dating sim (since I believe you are also speaking in general terms for that segment of the ask)!

I’m sorry, but I fail to see what is different about your take on how OBs would be resolved in a dating sim format 💦 The problem that I have is that OB battles are painted as very real life or death situations in TWST; the OB boy is endangering not only the people in their immediate surroundings, but also themselves if they remain in that state for too long. OBs also wield terribly powerful magic and are typically driven by blind negative emotions. It’s a dangerous manifestation of years and years’ worth of trauma. To say that showing them empathy while also telling them what they did was wrong and offering advice/encouragement will snap them out of it (whether this is during or after the OB) is naive. Is that not what their friends (ie Heartslabyul for Riddle, Rook, Epel, Kalim, and even Yuu for Vil, etc.) are already doing for them (and to varying degrees of effectiveness)? Like I already mentioned before, not everyone will react to this positively or in the way that you want them to, because everyone is unique and copes with trauma differently. For example, Riddle might have opened up a little more to Heartslabyul and relaxed his stance on the rules post-OB, but Jamil flat-out refuses Kalim’s kindness and offer of friendship. Some boys are trapped in situations where support can’t help that much. Some are uncooperative and refuse to let others in. For other boys, maybe support can help, but it would probably call for a large time skip, since change is slow and gradual (but a time skip would still have the con of glossing over a considerable amount of on-screen development). It would be a gross oversimplification to say that there is a “one size fits all” treatment for what the boys are going through.

I personally don’t like the idea of befriending the boys and then romancing them. While it’s true that this happens in real life, it’s also true that not all relationships happen this way. I think there needs to be more variety in how the relationships form in a dating sim, not just to mimic reality, but to avoid making the routes so predictable. Now, the main reason why I personally take issue with the “friends to lovers” trope being so frequent in a dating sim is that it implies that all friendships will evolve into romances, almost like it’s a “natural” evolution. I don’t agree with that. People can be close while JUST being friends, and there is nothing wrong with that. I don’t think it should be so consistently be treated as lesser than, or as a lead up to, romance. It detracts from the value of the friendship itself and amounts it to being just a step along the way to the “ultimate happiness”/end goal that is “true love”. This feeds into issues that I brought up in my first post: 1) important character growth is gated behind interacting with the main character and 2) it unintentionally sends the message that “love” is what will help you be a better person, and that if you don’t have romantic love, then you cannot improve, or you will have a harder time improving. That can be extremely invalidating to see, especially for people who may be going through a tough time, those who are actively trying to improve themselves, or for people who don’t feel romantic attraction at all.

I do think that love takes a lot of time and investment to make work (even once a relationship is established, it still takes effort to keep it afloat), but I think that this is true of ALL relationships, including platonic ones. It is not mutually exclusive to romantic love. I disagree with “the more time you spend together with people, the stronger the bonds get”. That’s a very broad generalization that completely disregards context. Think of the characters that spend a lot of time in bad situations with others. Does that mean that Leona is “close” with Falena (since they’re family and always saw each other around)? Or that Jamil thinks of Kalim as a friend (because let’s remember that they’ve literally been together since childhood), even though Jamil states that he holds a lot of resentment toward him? What about the boys that don’t spend a lot of time together, does that mean that their relationships are somehow weaker? Are Chenya and Trey not close to Riddle because Mama Rosehearts forbade them from playing together as kids and they didn’t meet again until high school? Are the twins not that close to Azul because they didn’t really pay attention to each other until middle school? Spending time together doesn’t necessarily mean it will strengthen your bonds, and neither does not spending time together mean that it will weaken your bonds. It really depends on what that time is spent doing, and how the characters involved interact with one another.

In saying all of that, I’ll circle back to the conclusion of my original post and how I opened this post: TWST already works as it currently is because it stresses the importance of developing friendships with peers, putting some of your faith in others, and coping with and recovering from trauma on one’s on merits. I don’t think that adding romance would necessarily enhance TWST (again, as it currently is), as it implies that the original is somehow lacking because it doesn’t have romance.

TWST being the way that it is allows for much more creative freedom in the fandom. Since there are no explicit routes, anyone can make their own character with unique designs, backgrounds, and personalities to interact with the characters however they wish (be it romantic or platonic). What you’ve described to me in your ask doesn’t seem to be that different than how a lot of people in the fandom (including myself) make their own OCs and just have them do whatever they wish in the world of Twisted Wonderland—and we’re able to do that because that’s a freedom that TWST gives us by virtue of not being a dating sim, but as a joseimuke (a game directed at a predominantly female audience, but doesn’t make romance explicit or the center of the story). A dating sim would give us defined storylines for how every route’s romance would play out, even if the player would have personally wanted to do something else or if they had thought of a different scenario. A dating sim would focus on romance, leaving other aspects of the overall plot and relationships outside of the love interest (especially platonic ones) unattended to or extremely underdeveloped. A dating sim might already even define who the protagonist is, when the player may not even relate to that identity. The magic of TWST is that you can be whatever you want to be (you don’t even necessarily need to be Yuu, you can make an OC that’s native to Twisted Wonderland too), and you can be in a romance or in a friendship as you please. By comparison, dating sims are just more restrictive overall, and the intimate, sensitive nature of them demands good writing if the intention is to carry over the same nuance that the TWST characters have in the original.

I’m not saying that TWST can never work as a dating sim; I’m saying that a lot of what makes up TWST’s identity fundamentally clashes with what dating sims strive to do. Writing a TWST dating sim that retains the charm and the mindfulness of the original would require significantly reworking the plot (and maybe even its characters), because it’s not as easy as making the love the result of or an extension of TWST’s main story and the characters’ struggles. A genre shift is not so simple to enact, even if the intention is to make a dating sim that’s “not like other dating sims”. If anything, I’d think that would require far more planning and tact.

I want to reiterate that I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting a TWST dating sim. I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with not wanting anything deep out of it! It’s fine to just want to escape reality for a bit and to feel loved by your favorite characters. It’s fine if you don’t want to consider darker elements and if you want it to just be fluffy. The only thing I am saying here is that if you want a TWST dating sim that preserves the nuance of the original, it’s going to take more than just porting over the lore and the aesthetics. A TWST dating sim would inevitably be different than the original, and that is, in part, what makes it so fascinating. I feel that people tend to underestimate just how much goes into writing of any kind, but especially for writing that is both creative and mindful 💦 I honestly applaud anyone that’s taken to such feat, because I know that writing (and for nearly 20ish different routes) isn’t easy.

I hope that I’ve managed to communicate my thoughts in a respectful manner! Again, I want to stress that I share NOT to shame or to criticize, but to critique, to educate, and to potentially open up avenues for further discussion.

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tsukikoayanosuke · 2 years

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Captain Talks About Some Writing Things - TWST Otome Game vs the Visual Novel Gameplay

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Currently, in the fandom, I’ve seen some discussion about TWST otome game. It’s more of an imagining of what if Twisted-Wonderland is an otome game or dating sims instead of our current battle/rhythm game. While I have my opinion, there are already great posts of conversations with anons and other users from @pianostarinwonderland and @raven-at-the-writing-desk about the matter, mostly surrounding the story and characters.

So what am I doing here? As I said, I have my opinion, but not about the story and characters (but I’ll probably be touching about it in between). In this post, we’ll be looking through the lens of gameplay, as in the technical parts. Once upon a time, I want to go to the gaming department so the coding and system are always interesting. I made short games before, mostly for college assignments, so I might have little knowledge because most of what I learned is self-taught. Thus, I apologize for any misconception.

In addition, I’ll be comparing TWST to two visual novels, one of them can be count as an otome game. The first one is Asagao Academy: Normal Boots Club, an otome game based on Normal Boots. The reason why I chose this game is that I already had and played it at least for one route, so there’s a familiarity. The second one is Rewrite, a visual novel where there’s a war between humans and the nature-supernatural. Why I chose this because this is also a fantasy/supernatural genre similar to TWST. There won’t be many spoilers for the two games just in case any of you want to play them. However, I do apologize if I ended up making this more about visual novel than otome game because I’m more familiar with the former.

Despite everything I said, I’m not here to bash or offend anyone who wants TWST to be an otome game. You can imagine anything you want, even make your own TWST otome game. I mean, seeing these handsome boys, how can we not fall for them? (I mean, I don’t, but that’s another story) I’m here to open a new discussion on the table. Or you can use this as a future reference for your dating sims fangame.

So, without further ado, let’s discuss.

What is an “Otome Game”? What is a “Visual Novel”?

Before we can go far, we need to know about the definitions of otome game and visual novel. According to Wikipedia, A visual novel, often abbreviated as VN, is a form of digital semi-interactive fiction. They combine a textual narrative with static or animated illustrations and a varying degree of interactivity. You can say that a visual novel is a fancy choose-your-own-adventure-type game because it’ll lead you to various routes depending on your choices. It’s like reading a book, but you can be picky about the pages you want to read. Examples of visual novels are the various works of Key (Clannad, Kanon, Air, Little Busters!, etc), the Ace Attorney series, the Danganronpa series, Steins;Gate and Chaos;Head, and the Fate series.

There are also differences between visual novels: kinetic novel and sound novel. The first one is kinetic novel. Kinetic novel is a visual novel without those branching plotlines. Some examples are Hatoful Boyfriend and Planetarian: The Reverie of a Little Planet. Meanwhile sound novel is a visual novel that has a heavy emphasis on its sound and music. An example is the Higurashi series. A bonus, in my opinion, if we follow these definitions, then Twisted-Wonderland can be counted as a kinetic novel.

Otome game is a sub-genre of a visual novel. An otome game is a story-based video game that is targeted toward women. Generally one of the goals, besides the main idea/goal, is to develop a romantic relationship between the female player/main character and one of the second-lead male characters. Examples of these are Alice in the Country of Hearts, Diabolik Lovers, Amnesia, Uta no Prince-sama, and Mystic Messenger. The opposite of it, the bishōjo game, is a type of video game centered on interactions with attractive girls. Many visual novels are actually categorized under this, especially with the romantic elements. Both otome and bishōjo games can be categorized under the dating sims banner, which is a video game subgenre of simulation games with romantic elements.

The Common Gameplay Elements of Visual Novel and Otome Game

Now, when we’re talking about otome games, or visual novels in general, what is your first thought? Usually, it would be the romantic interests, our wonderful bachelorettes and bachelors. Or maybe we’re thinking about the story, of fairy tale romance, psychological horror, or just simple high school drama. While, yes, both of them are important, very important if I may say, but that’s not what makes a visual novel and otome game... well, a visual novel and otome game. It’s a certain breed of itself.

The Minimal Gameplay and Storybook-like Visual

One thing that separates visual novel and otome games from their peers from the get-go is how it visually looks and the gameplay. Unlike RPG, visual novel and otome game has very minimal gameplay, focusing more on reading the narrative. You can say this is an interactive storybook. This might be the biggest turn-off for many players, because, you know, who likes reading?

But with its minimal gameplay, comes the advantages. The stories of a visual novel and otome game are usually character-driven. While some have a straight plot, they usually are one moment where you get to spend bonding with one of the characters or love interests. Another advantage is that the developers can give more unique minigames or unusual point systems in the game. Some examples are the class trial in Danganronpa series or the baseball minigame in Little Busters!. However, the focus is always on the reading aspect. If there’s a special scene, usually they will be given a CG/picture, or maybe even an animation/cutscene.

Both Asagao Academy and Rewrite have this classic storybook-like format, just like many others. The layout might be different with a little extra spice here and there, but it’s essentially the same thing. In addition, Rewrite has a short goggle-map-like minigame while Asagao Academy doesn't have any.

Common Route & Character Route

Now, starting from here, this is the main discussion for me. Relating to the character-driven story aspect, visual novel and otome game, in terms of story part, can be separated into two: common route and character route. Now, I’ll be honest, I don’t know what the official names are, but for now, I’ll be calling them like that.

Common route is the introduction part of the game. In this part of the game, you’re introduced to the world, your MC, and your cute girls/boys who you will be spending the rest of the game with. The story is usually more simple than the character route because it’s natural for the player to settle down in this new environment. Throughout this part, you will be served with various options that will determine the progress of the story and future route. There might be some hints of drama that you’ll dive into more in the next part. The common route ends at a certain point when it’ll take you to the character you’ve chosen. Some games let you choose the girl/boy, some games just straight up take you after tallying all the points you’ve earned through the choices you picked.

In Asagao Academy, throughout your common route, you’ll meet various Normal Boots boys and you learn about the game tournament. The MC, Hana, has a skill in puzzle games, so after many interactions, the boys agree to accept her as a permanent member of the club if they win the tournament. While that’s the end game, the common route ends with the flower festival, where Hana can choose one of the Normal Boots boys to go with. This also serves as your gateway to your character route. There will be different scenes and interactions depending on which boy you choose.

In Rewrite, it’s more complex. The MC, Kotarou, has been experiencing supernatural stuff, so he goes to the ‘School Witch’, who is actually his senior. Because he wants to find new friends, he joins the Occult Club that is lead by said senior and starts writing articles about the supernatural. The common route ends when a girl from the newspaper club goes missing in the forest where the Occult Club went a few days ago. When they go to investigate on their own on the 13th of November, they get attacked by creatures and find out that there’s a war between two organizations for the fate of the earth. This is the gateway to Kotori Kanbe, Akane Senri, and Chihaya Ohtori character route. However, you can skip everything and get an entirely different common route. The common route reaching Lucia Konohana route focuses on the arguments between Chihaya and Lucia over a misunderstanding of why Lucia wears gloves and is such a neat freak. This common route ends on the 27th of October. There’s even a way to get extra scenes while still following the main common route. The common route reaching to Sizuru Nakatsu route has some extra scenes surrounding Sizuru and everything surrounding her, including a scene of Kotarou and Sizuru visiting her parents who don’t remember her. After that, you follow the main common route again and get extra scenes on the 13th of November rather than fainting like the other routes (except Lucia).

Character route is the next part. In this part of the game, you spend most of your time with your chosen girl/boy. There will be drama, there might be character growth and development. You learn more about the characters, their struggles, and their feelings toward you. Each character has their own story and struggles, and you’ll be there to support your beloved. There might be choices appearing through the arc if there are multiple endings (as in good end, neutral end, and bad end) but there are some that only have one end. Usually, the game ends with either of the characters confessing their love for each other or they already confessed their love in the middle of the route. Unfortunately, I can’t explain all the routes one by one for I haven’t read and played both games fully.

Post-Main Game Prize

While it’s nice to end the game with your first pick route, usually the player wants to see other routes. And what happened after everything is done? This is where the post-game content appears. This is your price after completing everything, whether you open a brand new ending or a new route, it’ll depend on the developer.

Asagao Academy actually has several surprises. It has two extra routes outside the main Normal Boots boys. This can be accessed even before you finish the game. And after you completed both and everything else (with all worst, bad, good, and best endings), you’ll get an extra ending which is a continuation of Jirad route.

Rewrite goes the extra mile and gives you two new routes (technically three). Moon route can be accessed after completing all of the five girls' routes. It focuses on a new girl, Kagari, the same girl that has been haunting Kotarou on the common route, and more nature-supernatural conflict. After completing that, you’ll unlock Terra route, where you see Kotarou’s past, which makes it a prequel for the first part and a sequel to the second part. And after completing everything, including all minigame quests, you’ll unlock a gag route called Oppai route through the common route.

Minor Things (Save, Calendar, CG)

While I call this a minor thing, this is more of a technical thing that is essential to a visual novel and otome game. Because of the nature of having usually multiple choices, the save system is important. If you’re on the road to a bad ending, do you really want to start from the beginning? Usually, the save system is always available, so when an option pop up, you can save first before choosing. And if you want to choose another option, you can just load your last save file. The calendar system is mostly a trivia to mark your progress throughout the route, especially the common route when there are many options. It also acts as a marker whether you’re in the common route or character route because usually, the calendar will disappear when you enter a character route. The CGs are served for important or emotional scenes, something that words aren’t enough to describe it. There are many more quirks, but these three are what I think are the most crucial.

“TWST Otome Game” from a Visual Novel Gameplay Perspective

After everything, here comes the million-dollar question: Is it possible for Twisted-Wonderland to become an otome game from a gameplay perspective?

Short answer: With the current state of story structure, possibly no. Long answer: It’s complicated but I’ll try my best to explain my reasoning.

Well, let’s go down with every point that I made about the elements of a visual novel/otome game: the storybook aspect, the routes, the completion bonus, and the minor things. Even though I mentioned that TWST, by definition, is a kinetic novel, we’ll be taking a more traditional visual novel/otome game style with branching plotlines. And, once again, I apologize if I’m leaning more toward visual novel rather than otome game.

The first aspect is actually already been fulfilled. Twisted-Wonderland has wonderful art thanks to Yana Toboso and her team. They’ve provided us with handsome boys, well-design background, amazing music, and the visual-novel presentation in the main story and card story. If we take out all the lessons, the room decorating, and the test, the main core of TWST is definitely the story-ready aspect with the rhythm and battle more serving as a minigame. There’s not much you can do in TWST other than tap your screen and pick some options.

However, this is where it sort of crumbles. While it’s true that TWST provides us with options, what effect does it brings? Sure the dialogues that follow can be different but remember what I said before. Visual novel and otome game depends on these options to move forward and enter your ideal character route. Not to mention, that most of the options presented is either polite or snarky answers with the same meaning in the end.

But this is easy to fix by adding more dialogues and making them meaningful which would affect the routes onward. But this serves another problem. When do the common route and the character routes start and end? This is my main argument. Remember, the common route and character routes are essential to a visual novel/otome game. Both Piano and Raven had made great points about how the story and characters won’t work, you guys can check them out. What becomes puzzling for me is how would the common and character route works. At the Post-Main Game Prize, I mentioned for both Asagao Academy and Rewrite have bonus endings only if you can complete all the routes. This would mean that you have to replay the game over and over again to get all the endings. How would that work in TWST? One of TWST's weaknesses is the game doesn’t really introduce a new character until we reach the dorm featured in the episode and they seldom call back old characters for an important role.

Many anon implied that the main story is the common route, which begs the question of when the character route ends. Let’s take an example (featuring some bullet points):

Let’s just say that the whole main story is the common route. And let’s say that I want to romance Ruggie. Would this mean Ruggie route is unlocked since the beginning or only unlocked since his first appearance? If we follow this logic, would that mean I have to wait until Pomefiore to even unlock Idia and Ortho? Does the player have enough patience to do that?

Now, how do we get to Ruggie’s route? We barely even meet him in the main story/common route because he’s working together with Leona for Malleus’ murder attempt.

You can say, “oh, Ruggie character route can happen after Savanaclaw ends.” While I can take this because of the aforementioned Lucia Konohana route from Rewrite, then comes another question: what it’ll be about? Again, we barely know the guy, we don’t know his full problem.

“Well, that’s what the character route is for, right?” Remember what I said about the common route being our introduction to the love interests? If you never give us hints of what their problem or interest is, how am I supposed to make the early connection. And don’t say their looks, because that’s a weak reasoning. The common route teases us with the bachelorettes and bachelors, and the character route gives us the full-blown experiences.

To add a point to that, what will happen to the main story after that? Do we just abandon them for one story? If we go through Ruggie route in Savanaclaw, does this mean we won’t get involved with the Octavinelle scam, the Scarabia training camp, or VDC? In Asagao Academy, at the end of every route, you’ll face the tournament which will lead you to one of your four endings. In Rewrite, while you will either join two different organization or stay neutral, there’s one thing that still connects them: the end of the world. For TWST, after we pick a character route, do we just abandon everything for one boy or keep continuing on? If we still continue down the common route, what will happen to Ruggie in Octavinelle, Scarabia, and the story onward? Sure he’s involved in Octavinelle, but he only appear once in Scarabia.

Still sticking with this mess, how will the player and Ruggie’s relationship go after that? Would Ruggie join in with you along the way or does he stay behind? Does your relationship even matters after that? Does it affect the story onward? There’s a reason why the character routes happen after the common route ends in both Asagao Academy, Rewrite, and many other games. The character routes served as a new storyline, a continuation. Both games don’t go back and forth between the character route and the common route.

This might not be what Piano and Raven mean when they say that the current TWST story would be hard to turn into otome games, but even if we look gameplay-wise, it would be a nightmare to code. Jumping between the common route and the character route would be a mess. This is why most visual novels/otome games stick to the classic format of ending the common route first before entering the character route.

As I put an example of both Lucia Konohana and Sizuru Nakatsu, it’s possible to end the common route differently, but they have their own character route that is separated from the common route and they don’t go back to it. You can argue that from the way I explained about Sizuru Nakatsu part that it seems that she has a character route and then go back to the common route. I assure you, all the extra scene for Sizuru in the common route is part of said route. This is actually a clever way to tease us to learn more about Sizuru by the end of the common route and entering her route. As I mentioned, the common route teases us with the bachelorettes and bachelors, and the character route gives us the full-blown experiences.

I won’t argue much about the post-main game prize, but this makes me think. Now, I do admit that I don’t know much about otome games, but the two games I used as an example here are full games with no DLC context. With TWST being a mobile game that would always update, how will the progression go? If every boy is a love interest, how many updates does it take to get the full otome game experience? Again, this is because of the lack of knowledge, so I apologize for not giving a strong argument.

I do, however, think of something that might become another sour topic, but I think I might as well address it: The Main Character Problem.

In the past, I, like many others, praised how TWST’s MC being gender-neutral is a breath of fresh air. This way, everyone can play it without feeling awkward playing as the default gender and we can easily put ourselves into Yuu/Player. Unlike Rewrite which has a male mc named Kotarou Tennouji and Asagao Academy which has a female mc named Hana Mizuno, TWST has a gender-neutral mc named Yuu (but can be changed depending on the player). Now, as usual, I’m talking about game Yuu, not OC Yuu. Got it memorized?

Now, unfortunately, when it comes to the role of the main character, I would say Kotarou and Hana are better than Yuu by default. Why? Because Kotarou and Hana are their own characters, unlike Yuu who is a player-insert.

As I mentioned previously, playing a visual novel or an otome game is like reading a book. Maybe, I need to make this clearer: it's like reading a book from the first-person point of view. When we're reading a story or novel with a first-person pov, we put ourselves in the head of the main character. You know their thoughts and feeling through the words written on the page. You can be frustrated at them and you can separate yourself from them. You can imagine putting yourself like them, but at the end of the day, they are their own character and you're just, fortunately, or unfortunately, sharing room in their brain.

This is the same as playing/reading a visual novel/otome game. You can put yourself in Kotarou or Hana's shoes but there might be a time when your personality will clash with theirs. Kotarou is easygoing, often getting himself in trouble, and a little bit perverted, but is also a kind person and would do anything for a friend (before this, however, he was described as cold and a loner). Hana is a sweet girl but can be timid because of her past. She can be quick to judge and has a tiny trust issue, but eventually comes around and opens up. They are their own person with their own personality, past, and struggles.

I, unfortunately, cannot say the same for Yuu. This is TWST's strength and weakness. Yuu has very little personality, doesn't have a past, and the only struggle they have (wanting to get home) is mostly forgotten. However, this might be intentional because they're supposed to be player-insert. The player can insert themselves into you and fill the blank about their past and personality from the options provided.

Now, why this is important? Short answer: monologues.

As I mentioned previously, playing a visual novel or an otome game is like reading a book through a first-person pov. Thus, you know the main character's thoughts, feelings, and even personalities from what they're saying in their head/what's written on the page/their monologues and self-reflection. Kotarou's monologues flow very easily, sometimes a little bit dramatic. From reading it, the first impression is that he's a chill dude and maybe a little bit of a prankster. Hana's monologues sometimes go long, a little bit deep, and often filled with self-reassurance. You can tell from those that she's a nervous girl who wants to try her best. Unfortunately, unlike these games, we never get Yuu monologues in TWST.

Once again, this is TWST's strength and weakness. With Yuu being a player insert, we have the will to form our own monologues. However, when making a visual novel or otome game, we need the main character to anchor us. With Yuu having so little personality (like even less than Grim), what would their canon monologues be? We don't know. We never know. We never had a moment for Yuu to gather their thought about the situation after a deadly overblot battle. We don't know what they were thinking when they lost Ramshackle Dorm to Azul's deal. The closest thing we had was them worrying about Grim and the injured Ace and Deuce in Ignihyde.

When playing Asagao Academy or watching Rewrite, I can easily separate myself from Hana and Kotarou even if we control their action. But when playing TWST, that line may blur sometimes. We know what we're thinking or feeling, but we don't know what Yuu is thinking or feeling. And because of this, canon monologues seem very hard to write. Because once you put a monologue, you cemented a personality through the words. And that would contradict Yuu's player-insert nature.

This might be fixable if the main character is Yuuken Emma or Yuuya Kuroki who both have clear personalities which makes it easy to create monologues for them, but I have little doubt that they are preferred over the player-insert Yuu.

And one last thing, not related to anything here (though maybe slightly toward main character-ish), but why ‘otome games’? Like, why not ‘visual novel’ or just ‘dating sims’? Remember that by definition otome games are targeted toward female audiences with female mc and male love interests. I'm not saying that males can't play otome games, but the implication that the mc might be a female? Or maybe that's not the intention. I can be wrong.

In Conclusion

There are more things than just a story and characters (and many had said about the matters) to make an otome game or a visual novel. On a technical gameplay level, it takes a lot of work to even make this. With the lack of weight to the options, the unclear line of common routes and character routes, the updates for a mobile game, and the weak main character who can't be separated from the player, it'll take more effort than just pulling the current Twisted-Wonderland and putting in romantic sprinkles.

And that's the furthest I can say for now. As I said, most of my knowledge came from self-taught, so I might get things wrong. Sorry about that. But this is just something that I want to say, at least as a fangame creator myself.

But, once again, this is not me saying you guys should stop making or wanting a TWST otome game. I'm happy that our fandom is going to have fangame contributions and I'll be cheering for you guys.

Well, I hope this little ramble can open a new view or discussion about this matter. Even if it's not, I hope it's at least an enjoyable read. I spent, like, almost a day writing this on a whim, so sorry if it looks messy.

Thank you for reading~!

#the captain's rambling #twisted wonderland #disney twisted wonderland #twst

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cupids-chamber · 2 years

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Hey! are you still looking for help on the otome? I think I remember you saying something about being more selective now? So just checking before I pm :)

Any help on the game is appreciated though I'll try and take a decent bit more professional approach. Though I suck at it.

#cupid answers!#petals:anons🌸#twst otome game!#twst dating sim discussions.

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cupids-chamber · 2 years

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How do you become an art anon for the otome game ur making?

Art anon? Well usually artists contact me or pm me. And you can decide if you want to be credited until the game comes out or reveal yourself from the beginning.

#cupid answers!#petals:anons🌸#twst otome game!#twst dating sim discussions.

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raven-at-the-writing-desk · 2 years

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Hey Raven! I appreciated and loved reading your thoughts regarding your recent Twst dating sim asked! What stood out the most to me as someone who is aromantic is how you questioned how romantic love is more powerful/influential compared to platonic love.

I love Twst so much because even if you decide to ship some characters (canon x canon, oc x canon, and so on), it's still inclusive of everyone. You still get to have platonic relationships, even when it's hinted at some "romance" moments. It focuses on platonic relationships and how important it is to heal and work through your problems.

If Twst was a dating sim, I believe it would reinforce amatonormativity and that the boys are only interested in you because they want to date you. Not only would there be a good chance that it would be targeted towards a predominately female audience, which would exclude the male and nonbinary audience that makes up a large portion of the community as well; it would forsake all the hard work the lore has already created.

Not everything has to be romantic, romance is Not the end goal. It's fine to want to ship with the characters, in fact, I encourage it. But if Twst was Just a dating sim, it wouldn't be exclusive to those who identify as aromantic. With just how much everyday media is centered around romance, friends to lovers, "true love conquers all" etc, Twst being a dating sim would feel so exclusive and constricting. I apologize if this seems a bit more emotional than logical thinking. I'm just an aro who is so tired of everything having to be centered around romance or the forced ideology that romantic love will fix all of your problems when it won't.

Platonic attraction/love is so important in stories like these for me because not everything is about romance. But I also think it's important to the other side as well because there are some aplatonic and asexuals within the Twst community! I would love to hear any of their opinions on this as well and see what they think

Anyways I apologize for the ramble but I rlly do enjoy reading thru your posts and seeing the conversation it's creating ! I hope you have a good day/night

[Referencing this post!]

Before I respond to this proper, I want to quickly define some terms that this Anon used in their ask for my readers!

Aromantic means one has little or no interest or desire for romantic relationships. Aplatonic means one has little or no interest or desire for friendships. Asexual means one has little or no interest or desire to engage in sexual activities.

***PLEASE NOTE: as is the case with all sexualities, these definitions are NOT extremes or binaries; they are on a spectrum. Every person is different and we should not make broad assumptions about those that identify as any of the above.***

Amatonormativity is a set of social assumptions that everyone prospers in long-term exclusively romantic relationships. It assumes that amorous relationships are the norm and the expectation.

And with that done, now to the ask itself! ^^ I think you brought up a lot of interesting points for discussion.

I completely agree that romantic love is something that is heavily promoted in all forms of media. It’s often portrayed in a way that undermines the importance of friendships and familial love, or in a way that holds romantic love up as the pinnacle of ALL forms of love. Because of that, it can, quite understandably, feel extremely alienating for those that experience little to no romantic attraction. Aromantics sometimes end up thinking they’re the ones that are “broken”, since they cannot feel what everyone else seems to be feeling. I see you, I hear you, andI understand you.

As I’ve said before, a BIG draw of TWST for many is that it’s pretty open-ended in terms of the types of relationships you can have with its characters. You can ship as many people as you want with whoever you want, and you can avoid shipping them altogether if that’s what you prefer. You can have romance if you want, and you can have friendships if you want. You can be male, female, nonbinary, trans, straight, gay, aro, ace, bi, whatever you want to be. You can truly have it YOUR way just like at Burger King, and we’re lovin’ it just as Ronald McDonald would want us to for that. Everyone can be included.

I really love how TWST appeals to so many different people! 🥰 And I definitely think that platonic love deserves more of a spotlight in media; it’s very underrepresented compared to romantic love. That’s what amplifies TWST’s greatness--it can tell complex stories with deep and compelling characters without necessarily having romantic love as the centerpiece for the narrative. At the same time, people can still enjoy the fanservice (in the card art and some lines of dialogue that are vague enough to be viewed as either romantic or platonic).

Fans interpret the relationships however they wish because the base game leaves the choice up to them. That is the real magic of Twisted Wonderland.

#twst x reader #twst #twisted wonderland #twst en #twisted wonderland en #disney twisted wonderland #notes from the writing raven

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raven-at-the-writing-desk · 2 years

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I use media like twst as wish fulfillment and escapism but I have to say I derive a lot of masochistic pleasure from your character romance analyses and how angsty the truth is because realistically speaking, a lot of these guys would be terrible partners or you just won't be able to be together. even with trauma and emotional constipation aside, circumstances/lifestyles will probably make it impossible to healthily date others. like with malleus and his duty as crown prince, and vil and neige would be difficult too, since they're both extremely popular celebrities. real life idols are even forbidden to date in order to sell the fantasy that they "belong" to the fans. their darling won't be able to survive the cruelty that is the public eye 💀 you just know that their fans would be cancelling their s/o every second of every day or doxxing even. I would love to see your take on vil as a partner someday but THIS IS NOT A REQUEST, just expressing how much I love your analyses on the characters! keep it up miss raven!!

[You can read my TWST analyses here!]

abhldiulaidadyasdi I’m happy to hear that you like my analyses so much! 🥺 As someone that also looks to fiction for escapism, I think it’s fun to reexamine media through a critical and sometimes more realistic lens. I can still enjoy the source material as it is and imagine whatever I like with it, but I also like to analyze the characters and their lore to gain new perspectives on them.

Maybe I’ll do an analysis on Vil as a “realistic” love interest someday, but it’s a topic that I’ve admittedly avoided discussing in detail due to personal discomfort I have on the subject.

I’ve mentioned before that celebrity characters aren’t something that I like, and it’s namely because of the fostering of extremely unhealthy parasocial relationships (depending on the genre and the nature of the media in which the celebrity is presented). While TWST isn’t a dating sim, the fact remains that a significant portion of its fanbase does, in fact, choose to enjoy its characters through the lens of romance. I don’t fault anyone for enjoying TWST in this way (as it’s something I do myself from time to time), but I think real issues can arise when it leads into romanticizing certain things without realizing or acknowledging how toxic those ideas can be, especially when taken to an extreme. It is this lack of self-awareness that can become frightening, particularly when generalized to a real-world context 💦

***CONTENT WARNING: I will be discussing bullying, harassment, doxxing, stalking, self harm, suicide, and parasocial relationships (as they pertains to celebrities) below the cut!!***

Stan culture in general can get so intense at times that it honestly scares me 😔 and it’s something that I feel is greatly perpetuated by the idol industry. I don’t know how widespread this is (as someone who is pretty ignorant to the inner workings of idol culture), but even I’ve heard of the contracts which prevent idols from dating, especially for female idols. It’s to retain their ‘purity’ and to sell the image that their fans are the ones that ‘own’ the idol... and that’s a level of intimacy and possessiveness that just feels off-putting to me. It becomes particularly dangerous when some fans (NOT all fans) start to rely on an idol for their happiness, or when they start taking extreme measures to be ‘closer’ to the object of their affections, such as stalking and/or threatening harm upon or harassing the idol’s friends, family, and other loved ones. This is something that is very real and has the potential to hurt real people, and it personally makes me really uncomfortable when these kinds of things are translated into tropes for fiction in a romantic context.

I understand that there is a line that divides fiction and reality, and I don’t necessarily take issue with the topic of parasocial relationships being brought up in literature and other forms of media (in fact, I think this is one of the few ways the topic can be safely explored and discussed). Where I start to have problems is when intense parasocial relationships are used as a plot device to further a polarizing romantic narrative. It typically paints the fans of a fictional celebrity as ‘crazed’ and ‘jealous’ rivals, sometimes even making them act comedically evil and straight up spiteful. I don’t condone any of the bullying or harassment tactics they employ, but I also think that this kind of a portrayal is extremely unempathetic.

In these kinds of scenarios, the S/O of a celebrity is treated like a saint that has done no wrong, they’re just being bullied by hateful people for no real reason (often without taking consideration that those ‘crazy’ fans may also be in a fragile mental headspace and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect just the same as any other human being, regardless of their terrible actions). This greatly oversimplifies the matter and portrays the S/O as someone who is purely good and “just a victim” and the fans as people who are clearly bad and “catty/petty rivals”. It creates the fantasy that you can have a celebrity partner and gain notoriety through them, while also having that partner defend you and stay at your side despite all the backlash--but it also ignores the real pain that comes with being a public figure. Idols and/or their partners have actually been put in unsafe situations, self-harmed, or even ended their own lives because of things like this, and at the same time, this kind of portrayal doesn’t show empathy towards those suffering from their intense parasocial beliefs (which can sometimes tie into poor mental health or a general lack of happiness with one’s own life).

This is something that’s so integrally tied to the real world, and in this context, it’s being used in a way that I disagree with. I don’t like that demonizing either side of a very complex problem is considered a “proper” solution to a story, and nor do I think it should be done, even in a fictional setting, to push the idea of a romance with a celebrity character.

It promotes this unhealthy idea that being bullied and harassed by others is just another means of strengthening your romantic bond with a partner. It ignores so much nuance in favor of propping up one side over another. It’s just not something I can ever find myself standing by or being entirely comfortable writing about 💦 Of course, that’s not to shame anyone that does happen to enjoy these tropes, it’s just something that I don’t personally vibe with 😅

#Vil Schoenheit #Neige Leblanche #notes from the writing raven #feedback for the writing raven #tw // parasocial relationships #tw // bullying #tw // harassment #tw // doxxing #tw // stalking #tw // self harm #tw // suicide

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raven-at-the-writing-desk · 2 years

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Reading on your thoughts of an otome version of TWST, to be honest, I agree and I’m making a romantic fangame of TWST.

That being said, I went through like four different drafts before I settled on one that I like which is:

It’s just a dream!

A dream where everyone plays what they were inspired by in the fairytale. And when the player character wakes up, their just friends with the boys.

Otomes and romance visual novels where the love interest(s) has heavy trauma, I can never finish it. An example is Obey Me, not only does it heats up my phone, it just doesn’t sit right with me that *Spoilers*

the Mc just forgive(?) Belphagor for killing them and that he only stopped trying to kill them because they are descendant of their sister????

It’s why for my self-insert on my Obey Me blog that Obey Me!Mieka puts the brothers at a distance even as they spent time together and is only really close to the angels and Solomon. Sorry for the slight rant about Obey Me.

Oh, and the TWST boys are in their teenage years so puberty, hormones, and attending an single gendered boarding school goes not go well together at all. Drama is happening left and right, on large and small scales.

[Referencing this post!]

***CONTENT WARNING: I have put some of my response below a cut, as I will go on to briefly discuss self-harm and suicide.***

Oooh, how exciting ^^ Best of luck, and I hope that you’re having fun with the process of making it! Creating a game takes a lot of time, energy, and resources, so be sure to take proper breaks to avoid burnout.

Yeah, I think that the idea of a TWST dating sim (I’m going to avoid using the term “otome” moving forward, as that can be alienating for those that don’t identify as part of the “maiden” demographic that those games try to appeal to) could work as an “it was all just a dream” kind of thing. As I said in my original post, the main problems with “translating” TWST to a different genre is that a lot of what makes up the core and the identity of TWST (the realism of the relationships, the emphasis on friends and personal/individual character growth, and addressing darker subject matters and traumas, etc.) fundamentally clashes with the usual trappings of dating sims. In the circumstances of a dream, it’d be very possible to explore romance while softening the details of the original without necessarily erasing or overwriting the original events and characters of TWST. It’d also work really well with the “Wonderland” aspect of Twisted Wonderland--you, the player, are the “Alice” that has fallen into their “dream world”... but you’ll eventually have to wake up from that dream, just as Alice did.

I definitely think that involving heavy trauma in dating sims isn’t appealing for everyone 💦 I think part of the draw of a TWST dating sim is that people are looking forward to “bettering” the boys with their presence and helping them with their problems, but that in of itself is a double-edged sword. If it isn’t done well, it can end up sending the wrong message to the people playing and make them feel uncomfortable, like in the example you gave. Once, I played a dating sim which (in the “true” ending) the protagonist stabs themselves in order to show their suicidal love interest that if he were to take his own life, it would also harm the ones he loves (with the stabbing being the protagonist’s literal demonstration of them “hurting” from their love interest’s actions). That somehow convinces the love interest to not attempt to unalive himself again????????? And then they live happily ever after, recovering in the hospital together???????? That does NOT sit well with me. It unintentionally sends the message that it’s “okay” to harm yourself for love, and that it’s “okay” to hold your own wellbeing hostage to prevent someone else from hurting themselves (which IS guilt tripping). It can read as incredibly insensitive to those who are going through similar situations in real life, and it oversimplifies the very complex matter of managing one’s mental health. I worry that a heavy focus on the protagonist “fixing” the TWST boys can easily lean into misunderstanding their issues and oversimplifying the solutions, such as in the example I gave.

I think that inexperience and immaturity come with dating for both teenagers and adults. Age doesn’t always necessarily correlate with experience and maturity in relationships (though it’s certainly more chaotic when you factor in teenage hormones and people just trying to figure out who they are and what they want to do). I’m not going to speak on the subject of all boys boarding schools and how that could factor into this, because I don’t want to make sweeping assumptions without any knowledge on them. Suffice to say, I think the TWST boys would still be varying degrees of messes when it comes to romance 🤣 (as we’ve seen in Ghost Marriage). That’s very much what a ‘real’ relationship is! Not being perfect, but learning to address issues and to compromise with your S/O--an interpretation which I think fits the spirit of what the original TWST is: a world with magic and wacky shenanigans rooted in realism.

#twst x reader #twst #twisted wonderland #disney twisted wonderland #tw // self harm #tw // suicide #notes from the writing raven #spoilers

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