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bigskydreaming · 3 years

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Hi! I was reading a fanfic and it brought up Roy and Dick's fight, which I see a lot of in fics but never what they fought about and consequently why they don't talk. I thought it was a vague excuse/reason why Roy was Jason's friend not Dick's anymore but this fic brought up when Dick was batman so I was wondering if there was actually a fight between them? Btw I really enjoy your metas! They're v thought out and well articulated. Also it's v easy to separate what's your opinion and what's fact which is. Very helpful for me

Yeah this is one hundred percent a fanon thing that's kept deliberately vague to justify why Roy in his friendship with Jason seems to have no positive thoughts or concerns about Dick whatsoever. Now granted, Dick and Roy are not nearly as close in the New 52 as they were pre-Reboot. The lack of their friendship there is definitely one of the things I disliked most about the Reboot - and I actually don't care if Jason and Roy are friends tbh, its the total erasure of his history with Dick as if he can't be friends with both, that like, bugs most.

But so like, yeah, Roy and Dick aren't super close when they interact on the Titans in the New 52, but there's literally nothing in any of their interactions that explains the complete absence of him from Roy's life or a reason that Roy would like, hate him the way he tends to in a lot of Jason-centric fics.

When you factor in pre-Reboot stuff though, it starts to get a LOT more.....uh wyd? And this is why I have trouble buying that people just write Roy and Jason the way they do because its the only thing they know from recent comics. Like one, most fans talk about how they don't even read the source comics, so there's no reason their knowledge of the characters or events would be limited to just recent comics if they're going off wiki summaries and scans anyway. And second, most fans AREN'T limited in their knowledge to just recent comics.

Like, the second people start writing Roy and Jason and Kori but with their pre-52 characterizations and references to events from THAT timeline, it all gets very messy, the way they're like, completely antagonistic towards Dick a lot of the time. Because Roy and Dick were always solid. Yes, they fought. A lot. But they always, ALWAYS made up afterwards. They had conflict about Roy's drug addiction - it didn't stop Dick from being there to support him through rehab, or Dick being the first person Roy called to help him get Lian after he learned of her existence. Dick literally held Lian before Roy ever did? He's the one who first put her in Roy's arms for the first time.

(Which is the prime grudge I and most Dick Grayson fans have about Roy and Jason fics which make Jason like, the absolute apple of Lian's eye. If you want to expand Lian's circle of loved and trusted ones to include Jason as Roy's friend and thus her uncle, like go for it! But there's zero reason that should require invalidating and erasing the fact that Dick was this little girl's adored godfather and uncle for pretty much her entire life. And the way Dick is just shoved offstage from Lian's life entirely, to slot Jason into his place as though they're completely interchangeable, its like....THAT'S the kind of thing that gets people irey about how Jason 'steals' Dick's dynamics and character relationships.

Because there's nothing saying they both can't be major players in Roy and Lian's lives! But just that they're not interchangeable! You need to develop the specific role Jason plays there WITHOUT just overwriting everything Dick actually did in relation to the two of them pre-Flashpoint, which is what you're drawing from the second you write Lian, unless you're specifically going with the few appearances we've had of her within literally just the last year.

But I mean, when people just search and replace Dick Grayson in all Roy and Lian's pre-Reboot stories and act like Jason was the one doing all of that instead.....why wouldn't fans of the source material be annoyed by a character getting credit for interactions and things done for Lian and Roy that Jason literally NEVER DID, while at the EXACT SAME TIME, conjuring some mysterious, unnamed 'Falling Out' that Roy and Dick had, that was clearly all Dick's fault, and resulted from him being basically excised entirely from Roy and Lian's lives?

Same with Kori, for the record, and like despite being Dick's ex, she and Dick have NEVER been like, estranged? She and Dick have often been close even after their breakup. None of it makes any sense, and the fact that a lot of fans don't even try to make it make sense or justify it, and expect other fans to just be fine with settling for an inexplicable reversal of Dick's every actual dynamic with these characters while setting up Jason to occupy the exact same role Dick played in these other characters' lives, like.....lol. Its fun.)

Anyway, back to your question, like, there are fights you can go with pre-Reboot as the source of various conflicts between Dick and Roy - but again, I maintain its just as crucial that they're always written as getting past them. They have a very tempestuous relationship because they are the two people MOST likely to call each other on their shit, two of the two people WITH the most shit in common due to the parallels in their childhoods and the roles they've occupied in the Titans and the superhero community in general, and the two people most resistant to being called out on their shit by each other, lol. Mostly in that case because like, they do recognize that they have a lot in common and understand each other very well, so the second the other is calling them out for something, they're usually like "ugh, if HE'S saying this, its probably true and I am just not prepared yet to be wrong about this. I need more time being unjustifiably rawr about things." Its like that thing where they both look at each other doing something that feels familiar or calls back to their own reasons for doing something and they're like ugh I'm in this picture and I don't like it.

So they clash. A lot. But always with the implicit bedrock of like, there's nothing either of them can do or say to the other that will push the other away for good.

They fought over Roy replacing Dick as leader of the Titans when Dick's wedding fell apart, even though Roy actually didn't want to do it and was kinda pushed into it by the government, but again, Dick like, got over it and realized it was for the best and forgave Roy for it that very same issue. And on and on. It always went like that. So there's plenty of stuff that can be used or pointed at as a source of conflict between the two, but the part I'll always call unbelievable is the idea that they never make up after one of these fights. Why now? What fight, specifically, is so bad between them that despite everything else they've gone through AND gotten past, they can't get past this one? Y'know?

So yeah, that's my take on this. There is no definitive falling out between Dick and Roy as many fics like to point to in order to shove him offscreen and make room for Jason in Roy and Lian's lives, and personally, I just don't find it necessary and I actually think it makes Roy look REALLY bad. Because when you're not specifically detailing all the things that Dick has actually DONE for Roy, the lengths to which he's been there for his friend, and like, specifically invalidating each and every one of them as something that never happened in a particular fic, then literally anyone who reads that fic and has their own awareness of Dick and Roy's friendship is kiiiiiinda likely to be reading that and thinking wow what an ungrateful asshole, when Roy's just written as bitching about Dick with Jason and sandbagging him without any real explanation as to WHY, beyond just 'oh they had a fight years ago.'

(And coming up with some random awful thing that Dick did to justify Roy hating him now isn't like, a superior alternative, lmao, because again, its still just trashing one character for the sake of getting him out of the way of two other characters' friendship and people are going to think what they think about that).

Anyway, my now standard stock disclaimer that like, there doesn't actually need to be a canon fight obviously, for people to just write things this way and handwave that Dick and Roy had an epic falling out years ago and now they just hate one another or whatever, or just Roy hates him or vice versa. Obviously people are free to do what they want. They don't need a reason other than "I want to write it this way so Jason and Roy are friends and Jason doesn't have to 'share' him with Dick or have his friendship be overshadowed by their greater history together." That just happens to be a reason that no Dick Grayson fan is ever really going to be happy about, lol, for what should be perfectly obvious reasons, so it honestly shouldn't be surprising to people that fans of the source material often gripe about it.

Because yeah fanfic is a tremendous opportunity to transform the source material into something better, but if what's better for some fans actively takes away what was working perfectly well for other fans the original way, they're going to say that. Especially in a fandom where so many new fans take their view of the characters and their dynamics from fics rather than the source material - when fandom has that much of an influence on what new fans perceive to be 'canon,' fans are perfectly within their right to emphasize what is ACTUALLY canon and what isn't, so that new fans at least have the opportunity to determine for themselves what take they want to go with, instead of just accepting at face value that the nature of say, Dick and Roy's relationship is just that Roy hates Dick because of some mumble mumble ancient history vague mumble details not found mumble mumble fight.

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theravennest · 3 years

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Hot Loki Take: Sylvie was Right

*Spoilers for all of Loki the series up to and including ep 6.

Sylvie was right to kill He Who Remains and free the timeline.

I’m deadass.

He Who Remains forced reality into an endless cycle between a time of Order (he rules as dictator) & a time of simulated and controlled "Chaos" (his Conqueror variants wage war). I say this “chaos” is simulated because when you think about it, it’s chaos that He Who Remains arranges himself by manipulating Lokis.

He Who Remains is so fucking sus but for some reason people are just tripping over their own feet to believe everything he says and vilify Sylvie for killing him.

He literally tells them (and us) that his methods are deceptive and we know for a fact that he’s willing to murder trillions upon trillions of people, planets, and realities to get the outcome he wants. Yet some are still believing everything he says cuz he said maybe 4 things that were truthful, I guess, and cuz he’s cute. Some of us are so blinded by the fear/anticipation of Kang the Conqueror’s arrival, we are letting him bamboozle us.

He Who Remains perfectly and personally tailored the Ordered period of the timeline to produce this exact Sylvie and this exact Loki, had them meet/influence each other, and then had them travel to the end of time...to him.

Now Lokis by nature are agents of chaos and could suddenly swerve left, so to speak, for no reason. So let’s assume I believe that He Who Remains didn’t 100% know what they would choose once they crossed the Threshold (if the Threshold he described is even real, tbh). He also so carefully molded both of their entire lives for that moment in the Citadel. He may not have known 100% but he knew at least 90% of how they would react to everything he said and did when they were both pushed to this place/mindset.

Notice how he teed them up for the fight that ended in his death:

Manufacturing a scenario where they would meet via the TVA’s variant pursuit.

Manufacturing a scenario where they would travel to the Void and meet Alioth.

Kid Loki being in just the right place to give his sword to Loki.

Miss Minutes appearing to menacingly offer an obvious devil’s bargain.

Him slyly telling Sylvie that she can’t trust Loki, putting it into her head just before he gives them his ultimatum.

All of these thing practically gift wrapped that ending to the Loki on Sylvie fight.

Let’s elaborate.

What was even the point of Miss Minutes offering to re-insert them into the same Sacred Timeline with both getting their hearts’ desires there?

Not more than ten minutes later He Who Remains told Loki and Sylvie to their faces that he manipulated all this for the sole purpose of making them choose between taking over as rulers of the TVA or killing him and ushering in a Multiversal War. Neither of those choices would result in re-inserting Loki and Sylvie back into the timeline.

So what is the truth? Why waste precious moments with a creepy Miss Minutes menacing them in that vestibule scene?

Notice how Miss Minutes’ words pushed Loki further onto his path of no longer wanting power or a throne but desiring to change his attitude about himself and the universe. Notice how her words conversely pushed Sylvie into balking at the idea of accepting another “fictional” life after a lifetime of being manipulated and made her double down on her mission to free the timeline and get revenge.

Sylvie has the ability to see memories but interesting how he kept her distracted by condescending to her and provoking her, just stoking the fire to make her react negatively. (Interesting how he was far more focused on Sylvie’s reactions than Loki’s, most likely because he needed her to kill him for his plans to work.)

Now I don’t want to completely shift responsibility for her choices away from Sylvie. In truth, if she had held in her vengeance for let’s say an hour and trusted Loki a bit more, they could’ve sat down to talk about things and maybe found a third solution other than starting a Multiversal War or ruling the TVA that still could’ve even allowed her to get revenge. (More on the ultimatum later.)

But I can’t blame her for losing her cool, either. He Who Remains made damn sure she would burn as hot as possible because he tailor made her life to give her the personality he wanted. And any other version of her out there who might have made a different choice would’ve already been pruned.

He Who Remains tells Loki and Sylvie straight up that he set them on their particular life paths because he needed them to be “changed by the journey” to ensure everyone in that room was in exactly the right mindset to do what was needed to “finish the quest” and presumably “slay the dragon,” aka Him. (Notice the parallels to the speaker narration just before episode 2′s fight at the Ren Fair.)

We don’t know! Sylvie never enchanted him to read his memories because she was so filled with rage and Loki was too busy trying to stop her, he didn’t think to do it either. And we’ve already established that He Who Remains trained them that way. Nothing that happened in that office was without He Who Remains’ influence and meddling.

Another nail in the coffin that convinces me that He Who Remains is a no good dirty liar is Renslayer.

If He Who Remains’ end goal was to either have the Lokis choose to rule the TVA or destroy it and thus end up with no memory of her previous TVA judge role/life, why did he send Miss Minutes to Ravonna with files that caused her to pack her bags and search for what she calls “free will,” AKA the one in charge?

I’d bet dollars to donuts that when the next season rolls around the only people who will know what’s going on and still have their memories will be Loki, Miss Minutes, Sylvie, and Ravonna. (Maybe Kang the Conqueror will know as well but I could see it going the other way too. I’m 50-50.)

He Who Remains was planning something by pushing Ravonna the way he did. Does he want her out of the TVA so she doesn’t lose her memories when everything resets? Does he want her to go find the Conqueror version of himself? I mean, at this point, practically everyone knows who she is to Kang in the comics, so let’s not pretend that’s not an option.

Another thing to think about...it’s super suspicious that he was so eager to make them believe he’s one of the “good versions” of Kang and all these others are much worse while giving absolutely no evidence of that outside of an interactive blob powerpoint, a quirky attitude, and a couple of sad, weary faces????

Who’s to say He Who Remains isn’t playing the long game and always manipulates his variants to eventually give him the chance to seize control of the multiverse?

Who’s to say he’s not one of the Kangs that wanted to conquer too? Funny how the “pure of heart” Kang is the one who still wrested control of all reality, killed off every other timeline with a weapon of mass destruction, installed a fascist time bureaucracy, and set himself up as the dictator. Sounds an awful lot like some conqueror shit to me, just saying.

Even wilder theory: what if this really is the same Kang the Conqueror but at the end of his life? We only have hhis word that he’s a variant. He Who Remains tells Loki that this fight is for the “young and hungry.” Maybe the “young and hungry” he’s referring to is not Loki and Sylvie at all but his literal younger self. Perhaps he set up this entire cycle of chaos and order so that he can perpetually live, conqueror, rule, die, and start all over again? Reincarnation, as he says...

But let’s set that wild theory aside for a moment. Let’s circle back to the Multiversal War debate and say it really is is caused by an infinite amount of his variants.

I think it’s hella sus that He Who Remains was so insistent that Loki and Sylvie only had two choices to resolve this riddle: Multiversal War or running the TVA almost exactly the way he did while maintaining only a single timeline. Those are definitely not the only two options they had. In fact, I could probably name 1-3 other options off the top of my head right now:

Keep He Who Remains alive while learning how he manipulated time and using those skills to slowly unleash the multiverse while killing every version of Kang to prevent him from existing as either conqueror or dictator.

Kill He Who Remains, take over the TVA, and slowly change it to something not horrific or even build a brand new system for governing time.

Kill or keep He Who Remains, still take over the TVA, slow rollout the Multiverse and kill or prevent every Kang along the way.

(I’m not saying these aren’t also morally questionable options, I’m just saying they are different from the two choices He Who Remains presented.)

But let’s say these options I suggested are not feasible. I just randomly came up with them ten minutes ago so it would be fair if they were picked apart logically.

So let’s contemplate this, instead:

Why should we assume/believe that a Multiversal War is actually a bad thing again??? Why are we assuming that He Who Remains’ Sacred Timeline really saved reality from total collapse?

Assuming he told the truth about his motives, maybe he was just...wrong about the end of reality. Maybe he saw what he thought was the conclusion to the Multiversal War coming and erroneously believed it to be the end of everything but actually it was the multiverse sorting itself out and everything would’ve been fine after.

We (and He Who Remains too) will never know because not only did he not show any evidence to back up his claim that reality was on the brink of collapse, but he himself never allowed things to play out naturally. Whenever the end of the war comes to the brink of something, he always panics, weaponizes Alioth, and traps the universe in his cage of Order with the TVA.

Even more controversial take...maybe the collapse of timelines and the end of everything should be allowed to happen. Maybe the natural cycle of reality is to build and build, splinter and splinter timelines, until it collapses and starts all over again from the void.

Nothing is created and nothing is destroyed, all things exist in a cycle so why should the multiverse be any different?

After all in all, in all three possibilities an infinite number of timelines is destined to suffer and die. Whether it be during the Kang-controlled Order period, Kang-controlled fake Chaos period, or the unrestrained natural Chaos that collapses in on itself...an untold amount of people are dying anyway. There’s only one of those scenarios that has actual unrestrained free will where those people get to exist how they want, make choices they want (even bad ones) for as long as they can.

(Personally, I’ll take that over what the Kangs have wrestled the multiverse into.)

I’ll just take this moment to re-iterate: trust nothing He Who Remains says. He’s a known liar and manipulator, and unlike Loki he has done absolutely nothing to actionably show he’s not still lying or to show that he’s trying to change outside of some sad looks. It’s all pantomime, bruh. Like, the pageantry of it all astounds me.

Is he maybe telling some truths? Sure. But that doesn’t mean he’s not using the truth to manipulate everything. It’s an illusion, I’m telling y’all! He was up to no fucking good.

Sylvie was far more right to kill him than to not. Loki, Sylvie, & team (prolly also the latest Avengers lineup too) now just need to find a way to break this Kang cycle.

#loki #loki laufeyson #sylvie laufeydottir #kang the conqueror #he who remains #loki spoilers #mcu #mcu spoilers

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bedlamsbard · 4 years

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I got a couple of different asks about Luke and Ahsoka in other side AU 10, so I guess I will just make it a regular post after all so I can answer all of them at once.

@slecnaztemnot:

Okay i just read your latest other side chapter and I wanted to ask about Ahsoka and Luke dynamics. I wonder what exactly where their heretics disagreemts about the jedi doctrine? while i can guess some of the stuff like attachements i guess i mostly see ahsoka as nonjedi and therefore someone who should not be attached to doctrine about attachements (haha) so i am wondering how you see her. i would actually love your take on how their first meetings went. continued in next ask, 1/2

1/2 continuation since most people write them as Ashoka immediately spilling the beans about the whole Vader situation to Luke and yours Ahsoka didn't. So I am curious what do you think Ahsoka feels about it. I got of course lot of it from the fic itself so i am mostly asking about how did you base your interpretation, if that makes sense and what led you to the narrative choices to portray their relationship in such way.

@comentter:

I'm most interested in what Luke and Ahsoka know about each other. Luke doesn't know much about Ahsoka obviously, but does he have any idea why she seems to hate him? He must be desperate lol. And how much does Ahsoka know about what happened on the DS2? And how much does Kanan know about these events? What was Hera able to tell him and what else did Luke and Ahsoka tell him? I always figure that everyone but Luke and a few people he told (like Leia) think the Emperor and Vader from the DS2 explosion.

I now have this image in my head of Ahsoka spending time with Rex and her laughing as Rex does something like tell a joke or a specific gesture. Then Luke walks by, does the exact same thing and Ahsoka is like "Of course, you'd do this stupid thing, you idiot!" :D

I think shortly before I started writing this sequence I had seen some cute art of Luke and Ahsoka hugging, which is a pretty common art trope and which has never sat quite right with me. I also have the tendency to want to do the opposite of common fanon, which I can’t leave out either. I also wanted to logic out what the hell was going on with Ahsoka’s charaterization in her Mando episode on a Watsonian level rather than a Doylist one (which I did a few weeks ago), even if other side takes place well before Mando and doesn’t intersect with it in any meaningful way.

When it came to the Luke and Ahsoka relationship (or lack thereof), it came down to three questions for me:

Who knows what?

What do they know?

When do they know it?

I made the decision early on in the chapter to leave Leia out of this relationship entirely, since the new canon seems to at this point in time (within a year of RotJ) be keeping it relatively quiet that she and Luke are siblings, and it’s not something that Hera would have a reason to know. (Note also that this entire sequence is told from Hera’s POV, which plays into the “who knows what when” angle.)

As per Rebels S4 (not the epilogue, because Mando’s thrown that out the window), Ahsoka knows (or has good reason to believe) the following:

Anakin Skywalker is Darth Vader, Sith Lord

Darth Vader was directly or indirectly responsible for the genocide of the Jedi Order and the deaths of any Jedi who survived the Purge (”you and your Inquisitors saw to that”)

Padme Amidala is dead

Obi-Wan Kenobi is dead (Obi-Wan was not dead, but she has no way to know this)

no Darksider can return to the Light side

At the end of RotJ (not taking into account anything that happened in the comics or ancillary novels, which I’m not up to date on), Luke knows (or has good reason to believe) the following:

Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker

everyone Anakin ever knew is dead, mostly because of him

Vader returned to being Anakin Skywalker at the end of his life

(Leia presumably also knows all of this, perhaps with a few more details based on things her parents might have told her, but her feelings about Darth Vader are: Bad, Do Not Want, to be glib about it.)

Now, there’s one other factor here, which is Rex. Rex knew Anakin and knew Ahsoka and was in the Rebel Alliance -- we know that he was on Yavin IV prior to Luke’s arrival and we know that he fought in the Battle of Endor. (And turns up in a couple of scattered art panels from the comics.) If we want to take his brief appearance in Galaxy of Adventures with Han Solo’s strike force as canon, then he may have also known Han and probably Luke -- certainly his ears would have pricked up at the name “Skywalker.” (Okay, there’s one other factor, which is R2-D2, but Artoo never tells anyone anything despite knowing...everything. Or most things, anyway.) Rex doesn’t seem to know that Anakin became Darth Vader (I believe there’s an interview somewhere where Dave or Pablo or someone says that a meeting between Rex and Vader would be “awkward,” but there’s no canonical reason to believe that he knew about the Anakin/Vader connection), but he probably found out at some point that the 501st was the battalion involved in the assault on the Jedi Temple. He also, as of Rebels S3-4, assumes that Vader killed Ahsoka -- presumably Ezra would have told him as much as he could. (And Ezra does know that Vader is Anakin, so he may have told Rex that as well.) Rex also knows that Anakin Skywalker was having an affair with Padme Amidala, but presumably didn’t know about (a) the marriage or (b) the pregnancy, because how would he know?

Then we come to Ahsoka’s return and unfortunately the current canon gives us no time point for when it actually happened: presumably Ahsoka did not or could not return to the greater galaxy at the point she “left”, during the fight on Malachor (3 BBY), because as of Rebels S3-4 everyone still believes she’s dead. Maybe she’s still stuck on Malachor without a way to get off, who knows; maybe after S4 Ezra grabbed her into the World Between Worlds she decided to stay on Malachor until she ~caught up with the main timeline, which...you then have to believe that Ahsoka is going to deliberately remove herself from the war, which I can get to, but is not something I’m totally comfortable with. Or she pops out in the timeline at the same time that Ezra returns to the main timeline and is able to more or less immediately return to the main timeline narrative, plus or minus a few weeks. (There are, after all, still a couple of Advanced TIE fighters parked in the Sith temple, even if they were potentially damaged in the temple collapse. Ahsoka could have repaired them or used the comms systems to call for a pick-up -- this is, btw, what happens in Crown.) We don’t know when the S2 finale scene/S4 WBW scene of Ahsoka walking back into the temple actually takes place in the timeline; it doesn’t have to be at the exact same time as the rest of the S2 finale sequence (since obvs Vader dragging himself out, Maul flying off, and the Rebels crew looking sad doesn’t all take place at the exact same time).

Other side AU is deliberately vague about when Ahsoka returns from the World Between Worlds/Malachor/to the Rebel Alliance; it’s not stated in the story, but I made the assumption that she came back shortly after the (non-epilogue) end of the Rebels finale, but was still deeply messed up from her Malachor revelations. (Also, like, Sidious, I guess, but she was probably so messed up about Anakin/Vader that Sidious being around barely registered.) Since she never seems to have held a formal position in the Rebel Alliance, I assumed that after she returned and let everyone know she was still alive, she then immediately took off to try and figure out what the hell happened with Anakin at the end of the Clone Wars, since she saw him like a week before he snapped and at the time he seemed fine.

The problem is that almost everyone involved is dead.

Now, at this point (shortly before Scarif and ANH), a few people are still alive who then die shortly, but whom Ahsoka may have no reason to believe were involved. Bail Organa, for example, is still around, but aside from him being Padme’s friend Ahsoka doesn’t have a reason to know that Bail was there when Padme died -- and since they were in contact for the nineteen years preceding there’s no reason for her to assume now that he was keeping something for her. Back in the comics (before I stopped reading them), Vader did some digging to figure out what was going on with Padme and his child; Ahsoka probably would have done the same digging (without having to torture anyone), but without necessarily knowing that Padme was pregnant. Knowing the date of Padme’s death (same as the Republic, essentially), she may have had a previous assumption that Padme was assassinated on Palpatine’s orders, but knowing that Vader is Anakin probably moves that assumption closer to the truth, that Anakin was somehow involved in Padme’s death one way or another. Sooner or later Ahsoka will turn up the fact that Padme was pregnant, come to the obvious conclusion that Anakin was the father, and possibly find out the same thing that Vader does in the comics -- that the child was born before Padme died. (But also probably not that Padme was carrying twins, but even if she found that out, it wouldn’t make a difference.)

While Ahsoka is doing her digging (and there really isn’t much information out there to find), the events of Rogue One and ANH happen, and Ahsoka comes back to the Rebel Alliance to find out which of her friends are still alive. (Maybe Rex is with her at this point, who knows.)

Everyone in the Rebel Alliance is talking about some young hotshot named Luke Skywalker.

Luke Skywalker who has a very familiar lightsaber, who claims his father was Anakin Skywalker, and who had some kind of relationship with Obi-Wan Kenobi, who turned up on the Death Star, fought Darth Vader, and died.

Ahsoka has just spent the past few months trying to figure out what happened with Anakin, and as best she can reassemble the facts it mostly comes down to “Anakin did something dumb for Padme, that something dumb was ‘turn to the Dark Side and kill literally everyone,’ and then Padme died, the Republic was overturned, and the Jedi Order was wiped out.” Ahsoka presumably walks into a room, hears the name Luke Skywalker -- maybe sees him -- and is all at once face to face with the living evidence of just how badly Anakin fucked up.

This is just too much for Ahsoka to deal with at the moment, so she takes off again, and spends the next five years brushing in and out of the Rebel Alliance doing odd missions that can really only be done by a trained Force-user. Rex, who seems to have a more stable position in the Alliance, is always going to side with Ahsoka over anyone else; if she tells him not to tell Luke that she knew Anakin, he won’t. (And for that matter, he may have somewhat fraught feelings about Luke himself.) She may have the odd interaction with Luke -- who has heard that there’s another Jedi in the Alliance and wants to be friends/get real training -- but Ahsoka just does not want any part of this. It’s irrational! She knows it’s irrational! But this is the living evidence of Anakin’s failure, Anakin who last she saw him TRIED TO KILL HER, who was at least partially responsible for the deaths of everyone she ever knew. (And honestly, finding out that Vader topped it all off by killing Obi-Wan is not going to help.)

Ahsoka may also be feeling a certain amount of survivor’s guilt: if Ezra had not pulled her out of the Malachor temple at that exact moment, she came pretty close to bringing the temple down on both herself and Vader, and may have succeeded in killing him. She did not do so, and who knows how many people died because of that in the years between Malachor and Yavin? (Just because Tarkin was the one who gave the order doesn’t mean that Ahsoka may at least partially blame Alderaan’s destruction on Vader, if she knew he was on the Death Star then.) She knows he killed Obi-Wan.

The Yoda lineage is very good at going “yikes, I am going off to live alone and beat myself up over my failure for years” and Ahsoka is very much an example of that lineage.

She and Luke have a relationship of “Hi, I’m Luke Skywalker, do you want to talk?” and “I have to leave immediately,” maybe with the odd “please stop using that lightsaber grip it is physically painful for me to watch, do it like this instead, okay, bye.” Luke probably told all of two other people about what happened with Vader on the Death Star, Leia and Han; he has no reason to tell anyone else about it because it won’t matter to them. Why would he tell Ahsoka, whom he has no relationship with? He doesn’t know that Ahsoka knew Anakin Skywalker and would only know if one of four people told him: Ahsoka herself (no), Rex (no), R2-D2 (maybe), or Admiral Ackbar (would never have occurred to Luke to ask, might have occurred to Ackbar to say). (We also don’t know that Mon Mothma knew Ahsoka very well, or at all, for that matter; they never interacted in TCW.)

As for her swinging harder into overt Jedi-ness by Mando after her blatant “I am no Jedi” of Rebels, it reads to me as a response to the Anakin/Vader revelation (especially the attachment thing). She had made certain assumptions in the TCW period (see her saving Rex in the TCW finale) and prior to Rebels; Kanan’s method of Jediness was something she could accept in the time period and in those circumstances; the Anakin/Vader revelation shattered all of that, followed immediately as it was by Kanan apparently going full Jedi self-sacrifice despite his attachments. (Her reaction to Ezra being a trauma response about two very different circumstances.) All of a sudden what she thought might have been mutable based on the circumstances became something that had to be adhered to in case of dangerous results, which she had just had brought home to her in extremely bad circumstances.

I made a crack somewhere about Mando’s central tension being between “being Mandalorian” and “being doing Mandalorianness”; I think in the post-OT period with Ahsoka and Luke we’re seeing something similar with “being Jedi” and “being doing Jediness.” Even if Ahsoka isn’t actively claiming the title Jedi anymore (because what does that accomplish in most contexts?), she’s leaning far more into the tenets of the Jedi Order -- which Luke doesn’t know and doesn’t know he doesn’t know.

Thus the doctrinal dispute.

Ahsoka grew up in the Jedi Order. That’s what she knows, that’s how she knows how to be a Jedi; for her being a Jedi is being part of the Jedi Order, whether or not the actions associated with performing Jediness are being actively practiced. Luke doesn’t have that context. For Luke, being a Jedi is...being doing Jediness. (This is super awkward phrasing.) Performing the actions of a Jedi. Luke has a few holocrons, but I’m guessing that a lot of what is on those holocrons makes the assumption that whoever is opening with them has the context of being a part of the Jedi Order and doesn’t explain really basic stuff about the Order or what that means. Luke’s Jedi Order is not going to be the Republic Jedi Order made anew; it’s going to be something that has a resemblance to it and is based on a similar view of the Force, even arguably its heir, but is just not going to be the same thing. It can’t be. Luke doesn’t know what he doesn’t know.

Kanan, of course, is coming into all of this from a similar context as Ahsoka: he grew up in the Jedi Order, it’s what he knows, it’s who he is. Except Kanan never walked away from the Order, so while Ahsoka had been disconnected from her Jediness at the time of the Purge, he never lost his -- part of Ahsoka’s tension from TCW S7-Rebels was “I can’t be a Jedi because the Order is gone” and Kanan’s was “can I be a Jedi without the Jedi Order?” (Ezra is a whole ‘nother thing but is somewhat outside the scope of this.) The Jedi Order never factors in Luke’s Jediness at all. (There’s some lineage doctrinal dispute here as well -- the Yoda lineage seems to be very closely connected to the Order as the font of Jediness, the Windu-Billaba lineage somewhat less so. The Yoda lineage is like...the hardcore conservatives of the Jedi Order, though, and are probably not typical.)

Poor Kanan came back from the dead, after a week in another universe (which had its own problems; he’s been trying to very gently convince his counterpart that even after being an Inquisitor for months he can still be a Jedi), into Luke trying to build a new Jedi Order from scratch, Ahsoka firmly believing it couldn’t and shouldn’t be done and not wanting to be in the same room as Luke at all (not to mention that she really did not believe that they should have gone for “hey, let’s send Hera Syndulla to another universe” as even being an option), and both of them having essentially incompatible notions of being a Jedi at each other -- this is probably the most time Luke and Ahsoka ever spent in each other’s presence. They’ve probably never articulated their problems at each other, just assumed that the other knew them. And Kanan has his own “how to be a Jedi” approach, which is from a very different than either Ahsoka or Luke because despite originating from the same context as Ahsoka, he had a very different path to get to his present position.

As for what Kanan knows -- uh, pretty much only what Hera knew, and Hera knew very little? She was friendly with Luke and Leia, but didn’t have much interaction with them -- she states that she had a tendency to avoid Luke because even if she would never say it to Luke’s face, she silently believes that if any Jedi should have been in the Rebel Alliance, it should have been Kanan and Ezra and not this relative newcomer. If the Death Star 2 news about Vader and Palps was never common knowledge, then Hera wouldn’t have known it. Kanan’s in a position of having to play catch-up, but also having a completely different priority (finding Ezra). He sat through this meeting where after they’d finished grilling him on “you were in ANOTHER UNIVERSE and also you CAME BACK FROM THE DEAD?” they politely sniped at each other with a bunch of context he didn’t have and flat out decided that wow, he did not want to deal with this at all, whatsoever.

(This is also not stated in the story, but Luke and Ahsoka also disagreed about whether Jacen should be trained or not: Luke said, yeah, of course, when he’s a little older! and Ahsoka said nope, he’ll be fine, it will go away. Hera was just very “...I will deal with this later” about it since it wasn’t an urgent issue.)

#also thanks to reena-jenkins and isweedan for talking this out with me #other side au tag

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hotdadslade · 4 years

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DC’s Failed Shared Continuity

This is a subject that I see touched on a lot but not really addressed, so I wanted to break it down.

DC’s core comics (That is, Batman, Superman, Justice League, etc, and not the elseworld style books like DCeased or White Knight) are generally understood to be happening in a shared continuity. That is, what happens in one book reflects in the other. The series cross over, because they take place in the same universe.

Only that isn’t true anymore.

There are a lot of plot holes that don’t really make sense, but that isn’t what I want to talk about. Instead, I want to talk about the fact that DC has absolutely no timeline, the absolute glut of events happening in and out of main books, and the fact that each DC comic is effectively its own universe, rather than shared between it.

I’m going to address the following examples, just to give people an idea of what’s going on and exactly what I mean when I talk about a shared continuity:

The fact that Alfred Pennyworth’s funeral happened before he died.

The fact that Bruce Wayne was in at least three places at once at the start of Perpetua’s invasion.

DC’s insane event schedule through 2019.

The lack of impact events are having with the readers, such as the fact that fact that the entire of South America went to war, China engaged in mass orgies, and the entire of Britain stared at the sky for days on end and almost no reader has heard about it.

City of Bane’s complete lack of impact in the larger DC universe

And last but not least: Why does this matter, and where does DC go from here?

Alfred’s Funeral is before his Death:

Alfred Pennyworth dies during City of Bane. We see his funeral in Pennyworth: R.I.P., where we see the family come together and share stories before immediately getting into a slap fight over it.

This unquestionably happens after City of Bane, because City of Bane is when Alfred died. Despite this, Ric is still around:

That little note in the bottom left makes it clear that this happens before Nightwing Annual #2.

The majority of Annual #2 is a flashback, but it specifically ends with the Court of Owls telling Cobb (that is, Talon) that Dick will soon be his, and telling him to move in. This happens in Nightwing 63, when Cobb shows up (aided by Apex Lex’s gift), and starts screwing with Dick’s life. I’ll skip over the most of it: what matters is that Talon brainwashing Dick Grayson appears the same night Perpetua’s symbol appears over the city (in Nightwing 66 and a number of other issues), Dick attacks the Nightwings, fights Condor Red, and then is freed from the mind control all in one night.

Which is great. Except this can’t happen after Alfred’s death, because the symbol of Perpetua (which appears everywhere at once) appears over Gotham during City of Bane (in Batman 81):

So we have one event happening simultaneously in Nightwing and Batman, only one happens before/during Alfred’s death, and the other supposedly happens well after.

Which leads us into...

Batman apparently can be everywhere at once

So up above we have Batman 81. Bruce is, at this point, in the city rushing to beat Bane when the symbol pops up.

Here’s the symbol popping up in Detective Comics (1014) while fighting the Freezes (the city, I’ll note, is normal Gotham at this point, not controlled by Bane):

Bruce is in Paris (in theory, after his coma) in Outsiders #6, and then arrives back in Gotham just in time for the symbol to appear in the sky in issue 7:

Even just while researching this, I realized that it happened in other issues too. The symbol appears in the sky in Batman/Superman issue 3 while Bruce is being attacked by the infected:

It also happens in Justice League, but I can’t be bothered to get pages.

This is all taking place in a shared universe, so the fact that there’s three or four different Bruce’s in three or four different books who are all doing completely different things in different areas is... baffling. DC has always played a bit fast and lose with Detective Comics and Batman, rarely defining which is happening first or what their exact order of events is, but this takes it a step beyond that.

It also leads into...

DC has how many events? and What happened to the infected?

2019 was a year. Specifically, it was the year of the Villain, but it really should have been year of the event, because DC had so many events happening almost concurrently that it was impossible to figure out what was going on when.

You had Heroes in Crisis running from late September 2018 to May 2019 (acknowledged in Batman, Flash, Green Arrow, Red Hood, and Titans, but largely inconsequential and rarely referenced again).

Year of the Villain itself spanned the whole year, with two dedicated series (YoTV and YoTV: Hell Arisen), a huge Justice League arc (14 issues!), literally dozens of tie in issues in main books, and 8 oneshots focusing on specific villains and their upgrades.

This also tied into The Infected storline, where the Batman who Laughs infected six heroes and sent them out into the universe to torment people. This, too, got a number of oneshots and tie-in issues.

You had Event Leviathan, a six issue series which then got a spinoff and soon a sequel through the second half of 2019, which promised to ‘stretch across the DC universe and touch every character’, which has been, outside of Action Comics (which spun it off), a complete non-entity.

You also had Doomsday Clock, which launched all the way back in 2017 and only finished in late 2019. This was intended to ‘impact the entire DC universe’, with the idea that when the series ended, the rest of the continuity would catch up to it and you’d see the repercussions. It’s effectively been rendered non-canon, taking place outside the universe in a single line in Justice League.

So many things were happening, and they were all stressed as extremely important, but when the chips were down...

Most of them weren’t.

Half the Villain upgrades went away with the blink of an eye (Black Mask hasn’t shown up since his oneshot, and Riddler threw his retirement out in favor of being cRaZy in Batman). Heroes in Crisis had almost no affect. Event Leviathan is waiting on its sequel, having meant almost nothing despite the fact that an entire country was taken over. Doomsday Clock is now effectively out of canon.

Many of these (mostly YOTV itself) lead into the Death Metal event happening now, but that’s the thing: they only lead into that. There’s minimal acknowledgement of those events happening in other books. Even when huge things that should be impossible to ignore happen, they have minimal to no effect on the wider continuity. When is Death Metal happening, in continuity? No idea. What about the infected arc? What about Justice League?

Who knows? DC doesn’t seem to.

Which leads into the finale, the great big ‘are you kidding me’ moment:

Remember that time hundreds of thousands of people died, the whole of South America went to war, and China descended into mass orgies?

No?

Neither does anyone else.

In Wonder Woman issue 50 (and some issues around it), a series of dark gods emerge from (you guessed it) the dark multiverse. Each takes control over a single country, enacting their dark bidding.

(Brief Suicide CW in the description below)

The goddess of war causes the entire of South America to literally go to war, invading and murdering each other. The mob god causes the whole of Britain to walk outside and stare up at the sky, not eating or drinking until they started to drop dead. A god of indulgence causes the entire of China to engage in bacchanalia, which is effectively a frenzied orgy of celebration and dancing. The nameless god has taken over Saint Petersburg, causing those within to commit mass-suicide impulsively.

And of course this has been happening world wide. Tens, if not hundreds of thousands are dead. We see shots of other places - mass murder in the streets of Hong Kong, for example.

We actually see other heroes in this. The whole arc actually starts with Supergirl fighting Diana, and then while she's briefly out of commission, the Justice League (Bruce, Arthur, Barry, J’onn, Victor, and Kendra) show up to help only to get absorbed by the big bad. That’s when the above panel happens, and then even more heroes get thrown at the problem.

In the end, Diana ‘wins’ - by sacrificing her brother Jason to the Dark Gods. The gods return the Justice League, and undo the damage they’ve caused on Earth. Those dead aren’t actually dead, for example. Time gets rewound... partially. We see the Justice League who only partially remember what happened, but the damage around the area is still there.

This should be, by any metric, a huge fucking deal. Literal gods appeared from the multiverse and fucked over huge chunks of the planet. Hundreds of thousands died and then were, in theory, un-killed. The heroes are aware of this, and have at least partial memories.

And yet it’s never acknowledged.

This is supposed to be a huge event. The stakes literally could not be higher, and yet I’ve never seen this arc even acknowledged in any other book. This isn’t even a unique thing, either: all of New York (and most of the world) flooded in Doctor Fate and no one noticed outside that book.

So what about City of Bane?

But by far the most significant example of this is City of Bane itself. City of Bane was a huge event. Some of the top selling issues of 2019 were the City of Bane issues. It received numerous ads in other books, as well as major attention. It was the culmination of Tom King’s entire run, and lasted for more than half a year. It involved Gotham taken over by the titular Bane, ruling it with an iron fist and using mind-controlled villains as his own personal police force. It was a huge, game-changing event.

And outside of the pages of Batman (and Gotham City Monsters), it might as well not have happened. Any time it is acknowledged, it’s in the most awkward and confusing manner possible.

Batman and the Outsiders, Issue 6, Bruce is in Paris, Alfred gets a callout from Ra’s, and calls Bruce home:

Bruce immediately gets on a plane and flies home, landing at the end of issue 7 when the Perpetua symbol goes up.

In issue eight, taking place immediately after, we are lead to believe that the entire City of Bane arc happened in between Bruce flying home from Paris and arriving in time to help:

This is far from the only example. City of Bane tends to be acknowledged exclusively in terms of ‘this issue takes place before City of Bane’ editor notes. The only real thing that gets acknowledged is Alfred’s absence: Detective Comics skips over City of Bane entirely (The YOTV issues taking place before, and then going straight to ‘after), Red Hood and the Outlaws ignores it, and Batgirls acknowledgement is effectively skipping City of Bane itself to go right back to talking about ‘cleaning up the city’ with a one line mention of ‘what Bane did to Gotham’. Plenty of other books either don’t mention it at all, or the mention is so minor I completely missed it.

So why does this matter?

Early on in my time in this fandom, I noted that the more a fan is into DC comics (not the fandom, but specifically the comics), the more they’d hate the comics themselves. This extends beyond what most people on tumblr would consider the ‘fandom space’ - I’m talking reddit, league of comic geeks, comic review sites, etc. The fact is that DC has created a scenario where the more you read their work, the worse it gets. Any individual comic from the examples above reads just fine on its own, but when you read multiple comics you start getting confused about why nothing makes sense. There’s no order to things, no continuity. Things are said in one issue and ignored in the next. Major events are trumpeted as changing the status quo but don’t change a thing. DC is actively pushing away their most dedicated readers, the ones who are going out and buying 5+ issues a week.

So what comes next?

The original reason this all came up was the news that DC’s upper editorial staff had been hit with major layoffs. While nothing yet has been confirmed (this happened only three days ago), the general rumors is that DC is going to be majorly cutting back the number of titles. With Death Metal almost certainly heralding a continuity reboot ala Flashpoint, now is the perfect time for DC to figure out what it’s doing with its continuity, and realistically, they have two options.

Option One: Forsake Shared Continuity.

I’m sure a lot of people would hate this idea, because shared continuity is such an intrinsic part of DC’s history, but looking realistically at sales numbers, there’s some major appeal. There’s far less work to it (important with the loss of their editors), and this isn’t to say all the books will be separate, just that they won’t all be inherently linked. Maybe they keep TEC and JL in the same canon. Maybe Nightwing, Batman, and Batgirl share too. The point is, though, that the fact that Gotham is burning to the ground will no longer reflect on Clark, who is apparently just out of earshot with his thumb up his ass doing nothing.

There’s precedent for this as well. Injustice, DCeased, Criminal Sanity, and White Knight are all stories in their own world that are selling (or have sold) extremely well. DC’s top fifteen issues sold for January to March of this year include seven issues of Batman, one issue of Wonder Woman, one issue of Flash, and then two issues of Unkillables, the Robin 80th oneshot, Strange Adventures (its own continuity), and an issue of Batman: Curse of the White Knight. If you go farther down, it’s more of the same - you have to go through every issue of Curse of the White Knight released, as well as Criminal Sanity, to get to Batman/Superman, Detective Comics, Justice League, and Superman.

I’m not sure this is the best choice, but I can’t imagine it’s not an appealing choice just the same.

Option Two: Fix Shared Continuity.

Without question, DC’s going to be (at least temporarily) paring down the number of books they have, and there’s never been a better time for figuring out what’s going on with their continuity. Less books means less to organize. A reboot and one very determined editor could help establish a baseline to work from, but that would require DC to focus on it as a priority.

I’m sure this is the choice most people will lean for, but it’s definitely the more intensive option, and we can only hope DC decides it’s worth it.

#analysis #dc critical

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sparklegemstone · 4 years

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Taking a break from work so time to write up more of my Loki trailer thoughts since all the cool cats around here seem to be doing it :-D.

In chronological order:

1) Personally I was 'meh' about the trailer starting with the Endgame scene just because I think the Russos did a terrible job matching the tone of that scene with the tone of the original Avengers film's conclusion and I want the Loki series to feel like a continuation of Avengers. Alas, the Endgame scene grates on me as feeling inauthentic to the story it's supposed to take place in. But I certainly understand the practicality of needing to put it in to give the audience the context for when/how this new story with Loki is taking place.

2) But five seconds later on the other side of the wormhole…yay, Kate Herron fixed the tone! This feels much closer in tone to when Thor and Lok depart for Asgard at the end of Avengers. Excellent job Kate.

3) Was so pleasantly surprised by Owen Wilson's portrayal! Very different than any of the comedic characters I strongly associate the actor's acting style with. I like his character a lot with what we've been given so far. It's instructive reflecting back on the potential concerns I had and that were being discussed in the fandom when we were working with scraps and rumors that we now know don't have merit: things like 'Hiddleston is only there to narrate the series' and 'How comedic in tone is this going to be if Waldron from Rick and Morty is hiring Owen Wilson?'. Ah the good old days of baseless speculation.

4) I mentioned the frequently low camera position in another post -- it does a poor job of conveying how Loki carries himself, tall and straight and elegant. It makes him seem more ordinary, but maybe that's the point -- equalizing him with Mobius rather than it being an Asgardian in a non-Asgardian's presence.

5) The way Loki goes from locked down and not letting any sense of what's going on his head slip to Mobius (what I feel is in-character for Loki) to suddenly being a lot more open with what he's actually feeling and having less guarded, more friendly/casual attitude toward Mobius is weird to me. I think it's a cut just for the trailer and hopefully it will make more sense in context, but Hiddleston's acting here and the way he has no qualms about being physically guided out of the elevator by Mobius is one of the points where it felt more like Hiddleston playing a different character than playing Loki to me (and lacking Loki's costuming doesn't help that perception certainly). Which I know is nitpicky, but I was just curious to see to what degree this would actually feel like 'fresh off of Avengers' Loki and so I'm paying close attention to what feels in and out of character for me. Does Mobius say something to really throw Loki for a loop that would cause him to drop his guard like that?

6) "Glorious" -> YAASSSS that's the Loki I wanted to recognize. He's back! I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around how blessed I am, but we've got him back for more screen time. Also, with him back in Stark Tower and the later image of post-apocalyptic Manhattan, I am super intrigued by the possibility of Loki (and me too!) experiencing different ways things could have played out on Earth, if he'd succeeded in his conquest for example.

7) Loki's going to learn about what happened in the main timeline and the choices he made in the future?! That's huge! Should be a fascinating character moment. This bit of Loki turning away from the projector gives me a lot of hope that the writing in the show is actually going to explore, honor, and authentically run with where Loki was as a character at the end of Avengers and the context of what he experienced rather than Marvel just plopping the "general" character of Loki into a genre-fied crime thriller show basically disconnected from the events of Thor and Avengers so they can say they made a Loki show.

8) Do I like Loki in the beige detective jacket? Nah, not really. But I do appreciate that even with the earth costume they kept Loki's style of being completely covered up. Also creates contrast with him not being in control when he's in the TVA prisoner jumpsuit that has short sleeves.

9) Thought that was Nat on Voromir at first because of the purple environment. Been reading some thoughts on how that's probably not Nat, and while the theories make sense, if that's true, why would Marvel put in a shot of a character that looks so much like Nat that it would cause confusion and maybe get her fans' hopes up?

10) I agree with @delyth88 on the D.B. Cooper scene. Didn't think I'd want Loki looking like Hiddleston, but I don't mind it / it's not taking me out of the scene as I might have expected.

11) The fight choreo and edit into the twirling -- I already discussed this before, but the physicality of it is giving me human-strength!Loki vibes. If instead the guy he's fighting is also super strong, wouldn't the plastic or metal disc thing between them break upon impact? Also the fact that it seems implied that Loki would get hurt by jumping out of the plane w/o Heimdall’s help to catch him.

12) The twirling -- is Loki legitimately, celebratorily, uninhibitedly happy? I feel like we've never seen him like that since the Thor cut scene before they all made that fateful trip to Jotunheim. I read a theory that the roman numerals on the building in this frame might mean he is in Pompeii the year the volcano erupts, which is interesting.

13) Loki saying "Brother”, “Heimdall", coordinating with at least Heimdall, traveling on the Bifrost -- HOPE! BEAUTIFUL, WONDERFUL, HOPE! I was honestly expecting the show to make no mention of anything connected to Asgard, except maybe segueing into Thor 4 at the very end, so the fact that Loki is (indirectly) interacting with Heimdall -- calling Thor "Brother" (even if not to Thor) !!!!!!!!!!!! -- interesting!

14) The idea of him being D.B. Cooper is very fun! (though I didn't know who that was in advance). It's very easy to pretend that Loki is real and has been an unidentified part of our history all along.

15) I do not like the last scene with comics!Loki suddenly being brought to life. In fact I had a very kneejerk dislike of it the first couple times I watched the trailer (so many watches ago :-P) because it presses a very personal button of mine, which is how the MCU is moving toward becoming more spectacle-driven and comic-book-y and therefore away from the grounded, character driven storytelling that I enjoy about the MCU. I'm here for the character of Loki that I love as he is already established in the MCU, not the comics versions of the character. Also, IMO the acting is out of character for MCU Loki and more goofy.

That said, I'm hopeful context will help a whole bunch here as @iamanartichoke has said. Given all the timey-wimey multiverse shenanigans, it's probably not even Avengers!Loki anyway, and I'm certainly not going to begrudge the many fans who are excited to see comics references on screen.

Overall impression? Very excited, very hopeful. Would I selfishly want a story that's just a direct continuation of the Avengers and hyper focused on the exact context of the character of Loki as he was in Avengers, fleshing out the off-screen bits and up-until-now only implied emotional impact of what Loki experienced between the end of Thor and the start of Avengers, digging into his relationships with the Black Order, and family, reconciling with his heritage? Uh…duh ;-).

But you have to give an audience what they need as opposed to what they think they want, and from a craft perspective, this has to be its own story. The Thor and Avengers stories are their own stories, they're told, they're done, even if certain emotional threads were left hanging / implied / off-screen that we as very detail-oriented Loki fans would like to see dealt with explicitly.

But given that this was always going to be its own story, I'm very hopeful that the series has an explicit creative goal of telling a story that also does a great job with emotional continuity and exploring the fallout of Thor and Avengers and what that means for Loki's character; of honoring, picking up from, and running with Loki as a character in the context of who he was when he surrendered to the Avengers and where he goes from there.

The Marvel Studios executives could have easily decided to make an isolated story featuring Loki that general MCU fans that don't think overly deeply about the character would have been very happy with and probably it would be very successful, and I would have gladly taken that over nothing. But I'm optimistic that that isn't what we're getting and that they chose to ground their story in the specific context of Loki's character. We'll see!

#loki #loki+

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eirenare · 5 years

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“The Rise of Kylo Ren” + TROS theory (with TROKR pics)

I’ll probably look like a clown in 16-17 days when “The Rise of Kylo Ren” #2 releases but whatever lol—after TROS I believe even more that the former leader of the Knights of Ren (Ren) is Ben from another timeline or a future gone (more) wrong

Anyways, my thoughts on this:

1) remember the outrageous “Ben sets the temple ablaze and runs away” from the Visual Guide? I’m sure it’s probably just even more retconning (like a ton of stuff from the VD), but what if it’s literal—except it’s just that the Ben who does it isn’t the Ben we know, therefore making it true while retaining “our” Ben’s innocence. Another option (painful but, I think, absolutely plausible) is that Ben himself accidentally set on fire the temple with his rage and sorrow unleashing a Force storm. However, the way the “prologue” of TROKR #1 ends (I’ll talk about later on in this post) seems kind of like a foreshadowing that Ben (well, “our” Ben) didn’t do it...? Kind of interesting, and hopefully we won’t have to wait until issues #3 and #4 (february and march) to know about that important detail

2) this interview with Charles Soule (the writer) and Will Sliney (the artist) dedicates, curiously, the first 3-4 paragraphs solely to talking about Ren—and the article, which is from the official SW webpage (an article called “Introducing ‘Ren’ in Marvel’s The Rise of Kylo Ren”), starts like this: “they call him Ren, but that wasn’t always his name”. Which is also how the comic starts:

... Tell me this doesn’t sound suspicious as kriff and like foreshadowing

And the interview keeps going like this: “Born out of the flames,” as artist Will Sliney puts it, the leader of the Knights of Ren in the opening pages of the new comic Star Wars: The Rise of Kylo Ren #1, arrives battle-scarred and wearing a fearsome, featureless mask — a blank expression save for a smattering of claw-like gouges. Concealed within is a charismatic leader, the exact type of person who would be able to seduce young Ben Solo away from the path of the Jedi.” Then they basically proceed to spend the first 4 paragraphs talking a lot about Ren besides talking about Ben (and then, lastly, about Snoke—and, fun fact: they knew about the Snoke twist of TROS beforehand), although I think they talk less about Ben even

3) Ben being compared to Anakin while Ren is compared to Darth Vader, except Charles Soule wanted Ren to read “like a more charming Darth Vader. “A Vader who is charismatic and who is appealing. That’s why [Ren’s] skin is burned and he sort of looks the way that he does. He’s embracing the seductiveness and the damage that the dark side does. Darth Vader, as impressive and imposing and terrifying as he is, is remote and cold and distant because he has the suit surrounding him. Whereas Ren isn’t hiding behind it. He’s someone you could have a beer with, in theory.”

4) more interesting interview stuff. “Designed purposefully for the new comic series, with issue #1 out now, Ren feeds the evolution of Kylo Ren. “The entire seductiveness of the dark side poured into one character engineered for Ben Solo is Ren,” Soule says. “He’s sort of a charming evil rascal that can be really fun to write and I really like where he goes in the series. But if Kylo Ren is going to take over the Knights of Ren, which we know that’s what happens, there should be some transition.”

Also: “I think the key to writing Ben Solo is to write him as a lost teenager who is deeply in touch with emotions that teenagers often feel,” Soule says. “He feels like no one understands him, no one sees him the way he actually is, he’s utterly alone and there’s no one else out there in the universe. So when he sees Ren, he’s like, ‘Wait a minute — maybe there is somebody like me in the universe. Maybe there is a path for a guy like me. Look at the choices he’s made. I could make those choices, too, and I could be cool.’”

So... This is interesting. We have Snoke manipulating Ben to go to him, at first making himself appear friendly, while on some measure Palpatine’s pulling the strings from Snoke (I don’t think he would be like a puppet with Palps’ voice, though, given that chapter of the TLJ non-junior novelization that has a lot of stuff from Snoke’s perspective, but who knows). But then, Ben Solo’s basically obsessed with Vader... and, apparently, this Ren’s a walking dark side temptation for Ben. Well... We’ll see what happens, I guess

Also, crying inside at reading that “wait a minute—maybe there is somebody like me in the universe. Maybe there is a path for a guy like me. Look at the choices he’s made. I could make those choices, too, and I could be cool”. If Ren really was Ben from another time seeking to change things (probably something related to Rey): the implications that this has, the emotions that this has, the power that this has

Interesting, too, that it hasn’t been said if it’s Snoke who’s “the master” of the KoR (yes, they do have a master on top of their own leader), but that only gets weirder because the KoR were revealed time ago to be only loyal to their leader and to the “Ren philosophy” (which also makes possible ties with Snoke alone impossible)—so, if Snoke and the First Order aren’t, then who is it? Palpatine? Still, again, there’s the philosophy thing of following only their group leader...

Oh and: the Ren philosophy sounds very intriguing and I’m liking it a lot

(For context of the next pics: there are two brothers, being one of them Force-sensitive, and both the KoR and someone called SecSec are trying to recruit them—but the non-Force-sensitive one kills the other, which means the KoR doesn’t accept him, and Ren kills him)

5) just after that panel, in this pic below they talk a bit about “the master” here, being Ren who says it. Also it’s interesting that, after that happens, the KoR part ends with Ren saying "let’s go find something to burn”:

After that there’s a page as if this kind of prologue has finished, showing a page with the logo of the comic and all that... and then, next page it’s Ben standing in front of the fire and ruins of the temple all shocked (a note here: on that page it reads “now” and the name of the location, and the “prologue” happened “long ago”). I’d say that really looks like foreshadowing...

Now the thing is... If the KoR are not affiliated in any way with the First Order nor Snoke, and the KoR is only interested in recruiting Force-sensitives for their ranks, then how come they could’ve arrived in Luke’s Jedi temple... just at that right time to burn it down? I mean, right, there can be coincidences, but— uh, that might be a bit too much of a coincidence, perhaps? Who knows...

6) interview intensifies. “Born out of the flames”, is how Sliney describes Ren—well, thought it was worth mentioning this because guess what mythological being is born out of the flames too. Also, funny the parallel between that and the publisher’s summary of “The Rise of Kylo Ren” #3 (scheduled for February 12th): “Soon, BEN SOLO'S path will end in a place of fire and blood, and a shadow will rise to take his place. He is with the KNIGHTS OF REN now, and they will welcome him, if he can pay their price.” Well, given that “our” Ben starts becoming Kylo Ren after what happens at the temple, and that they describe Ren (referring to the former leader of the KoR) like being “born out of the flames”... this does nothing to deterr me from believing this theory, to be honest

7) more from the interview. “ The creative team engineered some surprises for this charming dark sider, a foil in many ways to Darth Vader hiding beneath his protective covering. “You expect the dude hiding his face under a mask like that to be all messed up, particularly with his body looking the way it does,” Soule says. But in issue #2 we’ll see what he’s truly concealing, a reveal that speaks to Ben on a whole other level” … This whole paragraph, I swear. Sounds like when they talked in the times between TFA and TLJ about Ben’s face behind his mask, and about his unmasking. Also, the talk about the face reveal…

What kind of “reveal that speaks to Ben on a whole other level” could it be? I don’t think they’d be referring to that with something more going on in his face, as in, scars or charred skin. In fact, it wouldn’t make sense for Ren to cover that up given that he shows with pride his scarred body

And faces of men he might know? The probabilities just lower and narrow soooo much here. We have yet to see, however, if Ben gets the reveal as a kid or an adult, which could make a difference. Still, back to “what man could this guy be”, I just can’t think of someone that he’d recognize and have this impact on him... ... And now it’s when it’s a Ben clone from another timeline, lol

8) that big panel on “The Rise of Kylo Ren” #2 where the KoR and Ren are facing Luke, Ben and Lor San Tekka, and Ben and Ren seem to mirror poses:

9) this is jut something that came to my mind, but… It still bugs me to this day the phrase “it is you” that Ben says regarding Rey on the TFA novelization (when she calls forth the Legacy lightsaber), because Ben didn’t know back then about them being a dyad, nor have we seen any mentions to him having dreamt of Rey before or anything—so maybe Ben’s encounter (encounters? Still not sure about it) with Ren involved Ren telling him something that will happen in the future? Something which could also tackle that random “which girl?”

The sad thing, if Ren was really Ben from the future? Like I said in my previous post about this teory (pre-TROS): ... that Ben would’ve literally killed himself, and therefore made true what he told Han that his son is dead and that he’d killed him (which then is reversed in TROS with that “Kylo Ren is dead, my son is alive”). That would be such a kriffing trauma for Ben that I don’t know if I could stomach it, after seeing Ben’s death in TROS... I mean, we would literally be seeing another Ben die... even if somehow his actions meant a worse future would have been avoided

Anyways my brain seems to find fuel in angst (why), because now reading “Ren” only makes me think of Ben’s name but taking on the “R” from Rey if in that future something happened to her... (Or that the Knights would be called “of Ren” in reference to Ben and Rey)

... And now it’s when we’ve been played like a fiddle all along and the novels, with their differences/expanded material as hints (like the “it is you” in the TFA novelizations), are but one of the timelines. Can you imagine? To cite the TLJ non-junior novelization: “time is a circle. The end is the beginning”. At this point I believe anything could happen, specially after seeing TROS and how wtf it’s all that surrounds it...

10) to finish the post, the thing that made me start thinking Ren could be Ben: the hair that peeks from below the helmet looks apparently like Ben’s both in shape and color (an interesting detail is how the color of their hair seems to match in tone: in issue #1 it’s brownish for the both of them even though one’s surrounded by fire and the other by ice, and on the preview pages of issue #2 their hair is shown black). And in a universe so diverse as SW, and given that Ren and Ben are characters so connected, that’s a pretty... interesting choice. Here are some more images for comparison between Ben and Ren:

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riverboundao3ff · 4 years

Text

Riverbound Chapter 7

You are THE GUARDIAN, which is kind of unfortunate because you’re currently face down and up to your chest in a medicalizer, which has clamped down on your torso so hard you think you’re going to throw up. It’s not like you’re not grateful for the opportunity to heal your broken ribs, but feeling the machine forcefully fuse the bone and muscle back together is not a pleasant experience. Even advanced technology has its setbacks, you suppose.

“If it hurts too much, we can take a break.”

You look up to Mallek, who is sitting beside you like a very anxious guard dog. Somebody put a big plastic bowl underneath you in case you puke, but you guess he wants to be ready to either hold your hair up like a drunk sorority girl at a party or pull you out of the medicalizer.

You manage a wheezy laugh. “Nah, I don’t feel pain. I’m a robot, remember?”

An unhappy whine rises up from the back of Mallek’s throat, kind of like a stressed cat. “These things can suck even for highbloods. Are you sure?”

“Yeah, dude. I just--” Something clicks back into place in your side, and your vision goes fuzzy for a couple seconds. “Augh. Just need to be uncomfortable for a little while longer. I’m not running around Thrashthrust with broken ribs any longer than, than I have to, oh shit.”

Your stomach rolls like a fighter jet and you let loose into the strategically placed bowl beneath you. Hey look, there’s the grubflakes you ate for breakfast.

Mallek grimaces, and you feel a cool hand rubbing circles into your upper back. You turn your attention towards breathing in and out, in and out, just focusing on the physical contact. It’s only a little after midnight but you’re already exhausted. The painkillers Lynera gave you early in the evening have long since worn off.

“What happened to you?” you hear him whisper.

You force your eyes back open. “Daraya already told you? I got thrown into a tree by a goddamn cholerbear. Nasty sonuva bitch.”

“No, I know that! Why did you disappear for like, half a sweep?” he demanded.

His voice cracks about halfway through, and guilt hits you like a sucker punch. You just want to see him smile again. Granted, you’re looking down at the bowl-o’-puke instead of your friend, but you don’t really have the strength to do anything else.

“Long story short, I got kidnapped. Made some new friends to cope. Escaped, made sure my new friends were okay, and then I came back here. I’ll tell you the full version when I’m not on the verge of passing out,” you explain.

“Kidnapped?” Mallek explodes. “The hell you mean, kidnapped?!”

You wince at the noise and reach out to pat his knee. “Sshhhhhhhh. Shhhh. Calm down. It’s fine now. Be calm.”

His face lights up blue. It’s only then you remember telling that shushing a troll is considered lowkey sexy or something. Whoops.

“I would never leave you on purpose, Mallek,” you say, quickly pulling away before it can get weird. “Or… or anybody. Okay?”

“... Okay,” he mumbles.

You smile encouragingly at him. He grabs your hand and squeezes it. It would have been a really sweet moment, except you’re sweaty and shaky and everything stinks like vomit. You can’t imagine how much it must reek to Mallek and his better sense of smell.

The both of you stay like that for a few more minutes, and then the medicalizer goes off with a sharp buzz and releases your torso from its clamps. You immediately inhale as much as you possibly can, groaning with relief when there was no more stabbing pain. There’s still a bit of soreness; a medicalizer can only do so much for bruising, but by all the horrorterrors have you missed breathing like a regular person.

“How’s it feel?” Mallek asks. You can feel the anxiety coming off him in waves.

“So much better.” You’d fall asleep right there and then if he gave you the chance, but you feel him gently grab your hands and pull you out of the medicalizer. A pair of strong arms lift you up, carry you a short distance away, and then set you back down on a sofa.

You accidentally let out a squeak when you feel a chilly finger poke your stitches.

“Sorry.”

“Nah, you’re good. You’re just cold.”

Mallek huffs and touches the scarred-over gash again. “The medicalizer took care of this big wound right here, but the stitches need to come out. I don’t know how, though.”

The fun never ends. “Lanque did ‘em.”

“I’ll go get him. Be right back,” he promises. You hear him jump to his feet and leave the room, the door creaking slightly on his way out. Downstairs, you can hear your friends discussing something, most likely Tyzias and Daraya cooking up a crazy new plan for the rebellion.

You can’t wait to join them and help save the planet. Vriska’s demand that you return in ten nights is a constant reminder of what you came here to do, but it also makes you nervous about the inevitable teleporting you’ll need to do. What if you messed up and ended up somewhere you shouldn’t? Causing a paradox wouldn’t just screw up your mission, it could ruin the fabric of reality. That fear kept you from so much as doing a measly little jump down the mountainside when you left the caverns.

Having powers was handy, sure, but sometimes it made everything, like, a thousand times more stressful than it actually had to be.

The thumping of footsteps up the stairs gives you the distraction you need to calm down. You crack open an eye in time to see Mallek and Lanque striding in.

“Hey,” you croak.

“Damn, Adalov, did you have it up in the highest setting?” Lanque mutters, turning from you to Mallek with his arms crossed. He doesn’t look very happy with what he sees.

“Medicalizers are made for trolls, not aliens,” Mallek shoots back. “You know they hurt.”

“That thing was old when you let me use it.”

“I’m sorry, did you know any other highbloods with top-notch medicalizers that could do that surgery you wanted? I don’t think so, fucker.”

“Boys, can we save the pitch stuff for later? I want these stitches out so I don’t have to keep laying around like a dead body,” you growl.

Mallek and Lanque glance back at you, both looking a little sheepish, before Mallek slinks away to sit down at your feet while muttering something about never being pitch for pretentious assholes who can’t even wear their jackets right. Lanque messes around with a few first aid kits on the shelf beside the medicalizer before finding what he’s looking for-- a small scalpel and a pair of tweezers.

“Alright, you know the drill. Off with the sports bra,” he orders.

You groan but obey, pausing with your hand through one of the straps when you notice another pair of wide eyes on you. “Mallek. Turn around, my guy.”

A very interesting squeaky noise escapes Mallek’s chest before he turns around and all but slithers over the armrest he was leaning on. You hear him hit the floor with a thump. Lanque rolls his eyes.

“You two know each other?” you ask as you flip over to lay on your stomach.

“We’ve met a few times, yes,” Lanque confirms, kneeling down to start picking at the stitches with the scalpel. The way he says it makes you suspect there was a lot more to the story than he was letting on. “Have you already told Mallek everything?”

That was Lanque’s way of saying “Let’s change the subject”, so you let it go. “Not… everything. Are you listening, Mallek?”

“Yeah.”

“Good, because I only want to explain this once. Basically, the multiverse is a whole lot more complicated than anybody knows, and there are a lot of… powerful beings out there that like to meddle. Like, with timelines, and universes, and that kind of stuff. Are you following me?”

“I… okay?”

“So basically, this fucker called Doc Scratch is one of these god things, and he was using me to control his timeline… area… whatever. That’s why I was running around Alternia before I left, because I guess I had to help bring certain people together for the timeline to work? I don’t know. Anyways, he kidnaps me when he’s done making me do his business and makes me read this fucked up comic in his own fucked up dimension, which is also on one of your moons. Long story short, the comic’s about some other friends I made and the shit they get into in another timeline. Eventually I manage to escape from Doc Scratch with only moderate trauma. Yay, me. How are we doing so far?”

You can’t see him, which is probably a good thing. “You… the multiverse and the… okay, sure. Why not.”

“I end up on Alternia again, but in the future, and then Earth, which is my home planet. Well, not that exact version of Earth, but whatever. I end up befriending all these kids and try to help them lead better lives than they would originally in this other timeline where they all play a game that destroys the universe. I should also mention that Doc Scratch somehow wiped my memories before I escaped, so until I meet this cool chick called Aradia I… had completely forgotten about you guys.” You swallow back the lump in your throat and try to focus on Lanque pulling out your stitches. It stings.

“The last kid I made friends with was this boy called Dirk. Good kid. So we’re hanging out, and this other version of Dirk rocks up from another universe, and this bastard is a kind of god called an… Ultimate Self, I think. He tries to stop me from rewriting the timeline and then tries to kill me or whatever. I get away from him and manage to…” Crap, how do you explain this part without telling your friends you created an entire universe? “I get him to go home and leave me and the kids alone. He can’t hurt us if he’s in his own universe. After all of that I wanted to come back to see you guys again. So I did.”

Like before, you don’t mention the Director, or the little showdown between you, her, and Ultimate Dirk in Doc Scratch’s mansion. You definitely don’t tell them you’re here to help them win the rebellion. You remind yourself you’re not lying to them, you’re just… not telling them everything. To protect them.

Yeah.

“What worries me is this Scratch character,” Lanque mutters. “You said that Ultimate Self god went back to his own universe, but if Scratch still has influence over our reality…”

“I… have no idea about Scratch,” you say truthfully.

“What is he, exactly?”

You release a long sigh. “Every planet with intelligent life has a thing called a First Guardian to guide it and its people to their destinies. Timelines can have Guardians too, I think? I know that sometimes entire universes have Guardians. They keep time and space in order, basically.”

“... If this universe has a First Guardian, why can’t it go beat Scratch’s ass?” Mallek jokes.

It’s a good question, and you know he’s just trying to lighten the mood, but it still fills you with misery, anger, and a fear so powerful you almost start shaking. If… when you meet Scratch again, what will you do? Would you be able to fight him? Protect your friends from him?

If your friends knew who you really are, would they still care about you?

“That’s something I would love to see, believe me,” you manage to say.

“I’m so sorry that all of that happened to you. It’s so fucked up,” Mallek says hoarsely. “I was so pissed that you were gone. I just spent six perigees of my life thinking one of the best friends I ever had was dead and I didn’t even stop to consider that they might be having it even worse.”

“It’s not your fault. Grief makes people do and feel weird shit,” you assure him. You’re trying not to cry yourself, because you’re half-naked with a super hot guy pulling out your stitches and another hot guy hiding behind the sofa. Your life is a lot of things but boring is not one of them.

Your pain tolerance must be through the roof by now, because you don’t even feel it when Lanque pulls out the last couple threads. “All done.”

You let out a breath you didn’t know you were holding. “Thanks, Lanque.”

He pats your back. “Come join us downstairs when you’re ready. Tyzias has something I think you’d be interested in.”

Your tiredness instantly fades away. “Oh?”

“You can’t be serious, Bombyx. They’re still recovering,” Mallek protests.

“Then get off your privileged highblood ass and come with us,” Lanque calls over his shoulder as he saunters out the door.

Mallek yelps and dives back behind the sofa when you hop up to get dressed. Your shirt was slung over the desk chair, which you gladly yank back on over your bra as you start to shiver. Mallek’s place was always pretty chilly since he ran cold, so you’d always have to bundle up a bit when you came over to hang.

“Alright, I’m decent. My pasty white ass won’t blind you anymore,” you tell him.

“You’re more of a really pale… pinkish tawny?” he notes, tossing you your hoodie.

You decide you’d explain the different ethnic and racial categories humans have to him later. “Yeah, sure. Thanks for letting me use the medicalizer.”

“Duh. I don’t let my friends run around with broken ribs,” Mallek snorts. “Yours sure break a lot, though. Maybe I should just stick you back in there from time to time, just in case.”

You pretend to chuck the puke bowl at him and cackle when he instinctively dodges. Once upon a time, you might have told him that human vomit is acidic. Granted, it definitely is; you can feel your throat and tongue burning like a bitch, but you never specified that it wasn’t deadly or anything.

“Just put it in the load gaper!” he begs, and you laugh as you follow him down to the bathroom. You forgot how much fun it was to fuck around with him. Maybe you’d introduce him to Kuprum and Folykl, you just know that the three of them in one room would be the best thing that ever happened. That, or they’d all kill each other. Those kinds of things could be a little difficult to predict with trolls.

The puke bowl gets cleaned with water, soap, and a lot of vigorous scrubbing. Your hands get the same treatment. Once you gulp down some water and splash your face in the sink, you turn, only to realize Mallek is staring at you again. His eyes are much more blue than when you last saw him. He’s an inch or two taller as well.

“... Yeah?” you ask. Did you have vomit on your face? Fuck.

All at once, Mallek wraps you up in a hug that leaves you breathless. You hug him back instinctively, and then really go all in when you feel him shaking ever so slightly against you. He smells like chips and something vaguely smoky.

Neither of you say anything for a while. There’s something incredibly fragile in the air, and it warms you from the inside out and fills you with worry.

“I missed you,” he mumbles into your hair.

“I missed you too. So much.”

“... You don’t have to join in on whatever crazy shit they’re cooking up down there.” He chuckles nervously. “Really. You can just… I dunno. Stay with me, if you want?”

You bump your head against his chest and gently squeeze his arms. “Mallek. The world is going to change, and I want to be a part of it. Don’t you?”

“I don’t want you to die.”

You reach up to gently cup his cheek. “I’ve died before. It’s not so bad, really.”

Mallek leans into the contact, looking at everything but at you. You let yourself be held by him for a little while longer before pulling away. He doesn’t say anything else, but he does follow you down the stairs to the rest of the group.

You grin at Tyzias when she looks up at you, hopeful. “So whose lives are we gonna ruin tonight?”

#hiveswap #Hiveswap Friendsim trolls #homestuck #pesterquest #MSPA reader #The Guardian #riverbound #jadebloods #teals #AND MALLEK #lol

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cheriesjubiles · 4 years

Text

please don’t look under the read more i’m just testing

Can you imagine a world where we're all represented by a font? Huh, I wonder which one I would be? sees Arial Too straight. No! Not in that way! Just, straight, as in unexciting. sees Badaboom Too.. uh... Deadpool.... BROADWAY! Now that's the one! Now THAT'S the one! Hello Internet, welcome to GAME THEORY, where instead of putting a joke here I want to ask you a question. If your personality were represented by a font, what font would you be? Take a moment and put your font in the comments. I'm really curious to see what everyone has to say. Maybe find a couple new cool fonts to use. I'm getting bored with ol' Calibri 11. And with that out of the way, it's time to talk UNDERTALE. Now I don't think I've ever gotten this many requests to cover a game. Well, except for FNAF. And I suppose FNAF 2. OH and there was FNAF 3. Wait a minute, should I be worried about something here? Anyway, across the board on YouTube, Reddit, and Twitter, you all have wanted Undertale. And honestly, I'm glad you brought it to my attention. True loyal theorists will know that Earthbound is my favorite game of all time. So a self aware RPG in a similar style, WHOA MAN, it's like a gift from the indie gaming heavens. Undertale is a game where every character, from goat mom to grind fodder has a sympathetic design and a unique personality, motivations, goals, fears. Whether you're saving or slaughtering them, the game makes you feel something every time you enter an encounter. But to me, one character stood out amongst all the rest. SANS. A skeleton named after the font, Comic Sans, hence all the font references at the beginning of the episode. If you haven't played Undertale I'm sure that was a really weird opening. ANYWAYS, Sans is, well, there's a lot of mystery around this guy. And before we get into it, let me put up a very special spoiler warning: UNDERTALE is a game best experienced blind. So if you haven't played it, pause the video and come back after you've finished. I PROMISE YOU, I PROMISE you won't regret it. Alright, so everyone out of the pool and ready for the adult swim? Good. Because I'm feeling pretty determined to get to the bottom of Sans' mystery. So just to recap for those of you who haven't played the game and ignored the SPOILER WARNING, or just need a refresher, Sans is one of the two skeletal brothers who appears in the game. His partner is Papyrus, a loud, goofy trap lover also named after a font. But in the world of Undertale their origins are a big question mark. All you really know is what's given to us by a shopkeeper in Snowdin, who explains that Sans and Papyrus, quote, “just showed up one day and asserted themselves.” Weird, right? What's more is that, well, Papyrus is just kinda the goofy sidekick. Sans is much more complex. He likes fart jokes, but he's also incredibly powerful and deadly serious. Not only is his boss battle the hardest in the game, he's one of the only characters who has knowledge and power over space and time. He can take shortcuts around the world through ridiculous routes. Even is walking through walls. He also acknowledges that he's only one of infinite versions of himself, making self-aware commentary of the various timelines that you've played through in the game. He can even count the number of times he's killed you. He acts like an arbiter of this world, passing out judgements on the player's actions in the game, even explaining the secrets of EXP and LOVE, or EXECUTION POINTS and LEVELS OF VIOLENCE, just to clarify. In short, he just doesn't quite fit in with the rest of the world of monsters. But then, what, or who, is he? Well, the idea that he doesn't belong in underworld seems to be correct. The evidence seems to point the fact that he WAS, in fact, formerly a surface dweller. In the true pacifist ending of the game, as the group looks out onto the horizon, Papyrus asks Sans about the giant ball in the sky. Sans says, quote, “we call that the sun.”

This is important because A, the usage of the word WE, and knowledge of the sun shows that Sans has a kinship or knowledge with other humans, and B, that despite he and Papyrus both being skeletons, or, supposedly, brothers, and apparently appeared in underworld at the same time, they clearly-- uuuGGHH take two CLEARLY have two very different histories. Why would Papyrus not know the name of the sun but Sans would? We get further clues to Sans' origins as we hear him say multiple times he wants to "go home" or "go back." He says as much during his dinner date scene at the Mettaton hotel. He notices that the player wants to go home and says, quote, "i know the feeling." He then continues, "maybe sometimes it's better to take what's given to you." As though he ended up in the underworld by accident. AND in a genocide run during his boss fight he says, quote, "look, i gave up trying to go back a long time ago." End quote. And before you say he means going back to the surface world, that's clearly not the full story. His very next line of dialogue is, "and getting to the surface doesn't really appeal anymore either." Key word here, is EITHER. Yes, he seems to hail from the surface and wants to go back, but based on his dialogue he no longer considers it his home. It's as though the surface world he once knew is gone, as though he's from a different time. It's pretty intriguing. So we're left with a being that appeared out of nowhere, presumably from being from the human surface, but from a different time period, who seemingly has the power to teleport. That's a lot of questions and not a lot of answers. But here's where things get REALLY interesting. Sans has a hidden workshop that takes a fair amount of searching to find. You could say it takes a lot of DETERMINATION to unlock. Anyways, obligatory determination references aside, as you start to look for this easter egg Sans gives you a key to his room and says "it's time you learn the truth." After some searching you find the workshop which contains items that leave even more questions. A photo album featuring Sans and a bunch of smiling people you don't recognize, a badge, blueprints with illegible handwriting, and a broken machine hidden behind a curtain. In the latest update, one more detail was added. A handdrawn picture of 3 smiling faces with the words “don't forget.” so what does it all mean? Well a lot of Undertale theorists have been linking these details to a feature to a character named W.D Gaster. A ghostly character who never truly appears in the game. Honestly, covering him is a theory all unto itself, and probably one best saved for another day. Even still, none of the Gaster theories I've seen have been able to explain all the details. In particular, the photo album, and the badge. And that's what kept nagging me as I researched Undertale. A badge? That one in particular really stuck out to me. Why would such an oddly specific item to be hidden in the huge easter egg of a room? Something that supposedly reveals the truth about Sans? Badges just aren't important in Undertale. Then it hit me. What if this badge isn't from Undertale? What if this badge is from a completely different game? And was, in fact, the most important badge in the history of gaming? The Franklin badge. Now, for those of you wondering what I'm talking about, the Franklin badge is a pivotal item from the Mother series. You know, the one with Earthbound. Or, maybe you don't know that one either. Uh, you know, the one with Ness from Super Smash Bros? Yeah well, Ness is from Earthbound, and Earthbound is the second part in this larger Mother trilogy. Alright? Good. Anyway, the Franklin badge is a really important part of that series. It gets its start in the very first game and carries through the whole trilogy, saving your life multiple times in the process. It's SO important that nintendo has made it a staple item in the Smash Brothers series. So I asked myself; what if the badge in Sans' drawer was THAT EXACT badge?

Well first off, it made Undertale connected to my favorite game, thereby making it even COOLER, but that's still a pretty big logical leap. I needed more. Let me tell you, as I started looking, more and more pieces started to fit into place. At the end of Earthbound you're given a photo album, covering your adventures throughout the game. To me it's one of the best, most satisfying endings in gaming to look back on your journey in picture form. And what does Sans happen to have in his other drawer? A photo album with pictures of Sans with people you don't recognize. Of course you don't know them, they're not characters present in Undertale. And note the word that's used here, PEOPLE you don't recognize. Not underworld monsters. So that's 2 items oddly linked to the Mother series. But then, how do the blueprints and broken machine fit in? Well, in the final stretch of Earthbound, Ness and his 3 friends must travel to the past in order to have their final battle against the evil alien Giygas. To do that, Dr. Andonuts (remember him, by the way, he's going to be important later) with the help of the science geniuses Apple Kid and Mr. Saturn, create what's known as the Phase Distorter, a machine that allows people to travel through time and space. Except, it comes with a cost. It can't transport organic material. As a result, the young heroes must put their souls into robotic bodies to use the machine, and thus, save the world. I played this game back in 1997 and I'm not ashamed to admit that when I first saw this scene, I cried. It's DEVASTATING. Doctor Andonuts says goodbye to his son, these characters you've grown to love and care about are suddenly promising to sacrifice their lives. For all they know, there is no possibility of them being able to come back home. It's this incredibly dark departure in the final moments of what was otherwise a fun, quirky, and colorful RPG. So what does all of this have to do with Undertale? A LOT, actually. But the first thing you need to know is that Mr. Saturns are known for their, let's say, unique linguistic style. That would explain the illegible handwriting on the blueprints. And the machine? I think a broken Phase Distorter is behind that curtain. Now that may seem like a stretch, but it actually explains a lot. If Sans wound up in Undertale via Phase Distorter, it could provide a reason for why he's a skeleton. He used the machine as organic matter and suffered the consequences. Not killing him, but turning at least a part of him into a pile of bones. That could also explain why Sans has given up hope for going home. Remember the Phase Distorter is a time machine. By being in underworld, he's not only in a different place, but based on how he talks, he's also in a different time, with no hope of travelling back to the time he came from. But the crossovers between Earthbound and Undertale continue. When you speak to Apple Kid at the end of Earthbound, he's blown away by the astronomical odds of Ness overcoming Giygas, saying that he's going to continue studying the trait called courage, in order to harness its power. Seems awfully similar to the same experiments happening in Undertale around the trait of determination, no? Especially since so much has shown that Sans was a key player in those experiments. But I'm sure you also want physical evidence right? Well don't worry, because I have plenty. During one of the endings of Undertale, we see Undyne and Alphys hanging out on the beach on the surface world. A beach that bears a lot of similarities to the tropical resort location named Summers that you play through in Earthbound. In fact, the geographic layout of the surface bears some striking similarities to the world of Mother. When Undertale's crew of monsters are finally able to reach the surface and look out over the earth, they're met with a beautiful sunset falling across the landscape of a tall mountain, a large city, and a sandy area adjacent to water. Notice the sun's reflection to indicate water, and a lack of trees in this middle section here, hence the sand.

Well, in Earthbound you have the big city of Fourside, complete with skyscrapers, which you reach via a desert that just so happens to be adjacent to some water, and to the east, the mountain in Onett where a meteorite lands on Earth. I always called it Aw-nett. But if that's not clear enough for you, Mother 1, Earthbound Zero, Earthbound Beginnings, whatever you want to call it, it's had a lot of names, had a map laying out the same geographic landscape. A tall mountain to the east of a large city, separated by a desert, with all of it up against a coast. I don't know about you, but to me it seems like there's a definite connection between the world of Eagleland (Eagleland? Again, unclear how its pronounced.) between the world of Eagleland and the surface world of Undertale. But the strongest physical connection, one that definitely unites these two franchises, comes from none other than Papyrus himself. He wears a custom-made costume known as his “battle body”. But if you look really closely at the design on the armor, you'll notice some markings on the chest. Is it just a throwaway detail? Ohoh NO, that right there is an exact match to the ones that appear on the chests of Starmen, the most iconic enemy of Earthbound. And look at the way he stands! I always thought it was awkward until i saw the two characters side by side. Papyrus’ curved arm and hand is a DIRECT match to the curved arms of the Starmen in the Mother series! In short, we have some incredibly strong proof that the Earthbound universe is somehow connected to the Undertale world, which brings us back to our initial question, WHO IS SANS? Well, what if we took it one final step and said that Sans happened to be Ness from Earthbound? Sent through the Phase Distorter during a test of courage, carrying the Franklin badge and his photo album and his trusty backpack. Not only do all the items in the workshop suddenly fit, but so does Sans’ behavior. Remember, Sans can seemingly teleport. And Ness just happens to have the PSI ability to teleport. Now look the way Sans always stands, hands in his pockets, directly facing the camera. It's a very similar stance to how Ness is depicted standing in most marketing for the game. It even explains why Sans bleeds when you finally hit him. He is, or at least, WAS, a human. Oh and finally, Sans is only one letter removed from being an anagram of Ness. That's just a fun one. I thought it was worth mentioning. But if there was any doubt, we have to look no further than the creator's previous work. Toby Fox, the man behind Undertale, had previously worked on a Halloween hack for Earthbound. But this just wasn't a simple reskin. The Halloween hack tells the tale of Dr. Andonuts after the events of Earthbound. Remember, I pointed him out? He's the one who made the Phase Distorter. In Toby Fox’s version of the story, we see that after Giygas' defeat, the souls of the kids never return home. Instead, by going to the past to defeat Giygas, they create a new timeline that they're stuck in. As a result, Jeff never reunites with his father Dr. Andonuts. And Dr. Andonuts goes crazy with guilt, because HE’S the one responsible for creating the time machine, and extracting the souls of his son and his son's friends to send them back to what he assumes was their death. In his mind, he's killed 4 kids. And in Toby Fox's game, he's lost his mind trying to deal with that guilt. I'm telling you, this hack is DARK. that said, you see a lot of Undertale in this game. The appearance of Amalgamates, the first use of the awesome song Megalovania, the prototypes for Flowey? And the theme of having the choice to be nonviolent in an RPG, SPARING your enemies. But then why's all this matter to the theory? Well, remember, in Toby Fox's version of the story, the kids don't come back. They're stuck in the past, with no hopes of getting home. Just like Sans. And, in the hack, one character is oddly missing, with no explanation as to why. NESS. Presumably in this timeline his soul is in a different place than his 3 friends.

In short, Undertale is a continuation of Toby’s version of Earthbound, with Ness never being able to get home, adopting the name Sans, and accompanied by Papyrus, a former Starman, an alien force able to speak English and still equipped with his armor, and signature posture, but without any knowledge of earthly things... like the Sun. The pieces all just seem to fit. Now all we need is an appearance from Pokey/Porky and we’ve got ourselves a true sequel. But hey, that's just a theory. A GAME THEORY! THANKS FOR WATCHING!

#it’s the sans is ness game theory video copypasta

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nebuletteart · 4 years

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The Problem with HS^2

(And the HS Epilogues)

Ok, so I think I’m gonna do another post on this, because I’m feeling bothered. I’ve been really frustrated because I just couldn't seem to get hype for 4/13, like, at all, and I couldn’t even do any homestuck art today. I decided that I wanted to reflect on why that is.

BTW I AM NOT DUNKING ON ANYONE WHO LIKES HS^2 AND SUCH!! If it makes you happy, go read it! And if you don’t want to see me dunk on something you love, feel free to skip this post! I in no way want to pressure someone into hating something they enjoy, I just want to pull this fucker apart and see why is doesn’t tick.

Ok so first off, the build up. Imagine it’s the tenth anniversary of a property you really love, and word is that something big is dropping today! You sit at your computer and wait and wait, all that hype and excitement building up and then? They drop three chapters of fanfiction. And tell you to wait for the rest. When this happened, I, as someone who’d spent the last four or five years deeply invested in this comic, I legit cried out of fucking disappointment. I know Homestuck is known for trolling, but that was straight up not the way to handle that sort of build up. But I told myself, “Well, the other chapters will be good! I’m sure they’ll bring back the art, or bring the story to an enjoyable conclusion!” And then a week later they dropped the rest. And it was, not great?? Like, it had good concepts, and some scenes that were funny. But overall it was a pretty bad and draining read.

Why?

I think the main flaws in The Epilogues (and HS^2 by extension) are the themes. The theme is Meat and Candy. Basically, too much of one or the other makes for bad story telling. And that’s interesting in theory, but little thing to take into consideration, YOUR THEME SHOULD NOT MAKE YOUR STORY WORSE. Writing something bad on purpose doesn’t make it any less bad. And another big detrimental theme is “Suffering makes a story” and like, NO?? NO NOT REALLY??? That’s not how that works. You don’t need to make your characters senselessly suffer for a good story, like any good writing tool, you use it in moderation. Good writers can make their story interesting without just throwing pain at their characters. The original Homestuck knew not to take itself too seriously and even in the face of suffering and tragedy, it kept a good blend of comedy to keep it from getting dreary.

And I think this focus on Suffering (+ the Meat/Candy binary) really does negatively impact the writing of The Epilogues and HS^2. It feels like by narrowing in on every single bad thing that could possibly happen, and making sure bad things do happen, they’re stretching the character’s to meet these themes. Many characters are basically unrecognizable due to how they’re pulled and stretched to meet the demands of the story, and as a result, characters act different than how they do in Homestuck proper.

Beyond this it also feels like the current team are pretty obsessed with inserting their headcanons and ideas into HS^2, The Epilogues, and Pesterquest, with no care for the source material. I am all for representation! I’m Nonbinary and I’m lesbian! I think rep is important! But going back in and retconning your rep when there’s literally no build up ain’t how that works chief. That’s not proper representation. I think the only character that they really managed to pull that off with was Vriska, and maybe Eridan, but even then it was still a bit shaky for me. But for many other characters (For instance June!! June is cute, but word of god is in no way good rep, especially since June literally has like, no build up or subtext or ANYTHING!) That’s basically the exact same as JK going back and saying Dumbledore (or whoever bc I never read Harry Potter) was gay! That is not rep. Rep requires time and writing, and that’s why I think (hold on a second I’m about to praise this not very good sequel) Nonbinary trans Roxy is done well. They took time to build them up, and their issues, in an authentic way. If you want to put rep in your comic, that’s how you should do it, retconning only alienates your fanbase, and makes characters seem even more out of character.

But beyond this, I think the most damning thing about the Epilogues and especially HS^2 is it’s very foundation. It’s just not built out of the same stuff, and as a sequel that makes it impossible for it to ever properly mimic Homestuck in any meaningful way. What I mean by this is, lets swivel over to look at the Patreon. Yall probably know what I’m about to gripe with. Bonus Updates. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, BY THEIR VERY NATURE THEY GO AGAINST WHAT HOMESTUCK IS. And you may cry, “support the artist!! They’re just trying to make an honest living!!!” BITCH, I am an artist! Lets just look at the content of the Bonus Updates themselves:

The Bonus Updates take place in The Meat Timeline and have potential to become important later on. That is sneakily putting important content behind a fucking paywall, which directly stands against the accessibility Homestuck had for young teens. (And I personally consider it shady practice to accrue more Patreon support) Especially considering that, guess what?? That doesn’t have to be the case! The Bonus Updates could yknow, have focused on the time before the timeline split in order to avoid being plot relevant. Or if the Bonus Updates are plot relevant, they could at least release them later for those who cannot afford the Patreon bill? They could stagger the release, after two months, release the latest Bonus Update? Oh, or they could do something entirely different, such as showing behind the scenes sprites and artwork-- OH WAIT-- They set that to the twenty fucking dollar tier. And another thing that feels a bit anti Homestuck, basing the amount of updates on Patreon support.

Considering their rate is 2000 supporters a month, at the very least that would be 4000 dollars a month, if everyone payed the lowest tier. But most are likely paying the five a month for access the the Bonus Updates, so you could very likely bump that up to about 10,000. This is a ridiculous amount of money, especially considering the lackluster updates, three a month if you take into account Bonus Updates. I’m sure everyone get’s a smaller piece of the cut, and some of that goes into other HS^2 related projects, but that is a lot of fucking money, and definitely more than enough to pay the team if managed well. I don’t think that they should, and I don’t think that they even need, to use bonus updates to force invested fans to pay. If they were confident in the content they produce, they would certainly still have the backers.

Lastly,

Kanaya would not wear this ugly anime ass outfit are you kidding me. And this is also a not well preformed callback panel (like literally all callbacks oh my god none of the old Homestuck gags hit right in HS^2 at all!!) I could understand Dirk (Even though I think him looking more like Bro would have been a cooler symbolic thing but whatever), Terezi’s outfit was a stretch but I’d accept it, but Kanaya??? KANAYA??? You know she has more fashion sense than the entire Homestuck cast combined she would not be caught dead in this outfit.

#anyway #whew this got long #i spent like #three or so hours writing this goddamn post #happy 413 #i guess lmao #hs^2 #hs^2 spoilers #hs epilogue #homestuck #hs 2 hate #hs^2 hate #just in case you don't wanna see that shit #pesterquest #this 413 was pretty disappointing tbh #i think I'm gonna leave the fandom soon #kanaya #why would they dress you like this #homophobia and an attack on kanaya's fashion sense

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bigskydreaming · 5 years

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LOL sorry not sorry, I don’t care how annoying or repetitive it makes me sound, when it comes to Dick and Jason’s relationship when they were younger, I am a broken record on eternal repeat and can’t stop won’t stop.

Like, if there’s an even slightly tangential place for me to reference “bee tee dubs, Dick didn’t hate Jason, there is literally no canon of that, Dick was literally written making a point to put aside his resentment towards Bruce for Jason’s sake. After Jason’s origin was rebooted to the stealing the tires story, and his first encounter with Dick being rebooted to the druglab teamup, Dick made a point to give him his blessing and Robin costume and phone number and offer of being there so Jason could have a family relationship that didn’t depend on Bruce, had nothing to do with Bruce, like he literally stood there and gave him advice about how he knows how Bruce is better than anyone, and that not talking about stuff is Bruce’s problem but that doesn’t mean Jason had to make it his, so gimme a call whenever Bruce is being a pain - and yet even in fanfics that reference this exact story and even the part about Dick giving him his phone number, they all go on to write about how Jason tried calling but Dick never picked up, because yeah like it really matches ANY characterization of Dick Grayson to say he already went to the effort of extending that hand to his replacement only to then just end up ghosting the kid, please.

Even Bruce recognized all that as an actual effort on Dick’s part, with the last panel of that issue being Creeper!Batdad spying on his two boys bonding together and saying “Thank you, Dick” even though neither of them could hear it. And just like the Nightwing: Year One retcon that revised yet again the specifics of how Dick was fired, became Nightwing, Jason was taken in and made Robin, and Dick and Jason met for the first time (and ended the story yet again on good terms, like they were literally teasing each other)....like these stories only retconned the hows and whens of Jason becoming Robin and Dick becoming Nightwing and how they first met. And they were flashbacks. Because Jason’s rebooted origin story was written fourteen issues before the issue he died.

There wasn’t time to chronologically show any other interactions between Dick and Jason in that short a time frame, especially when the next Titans story took Dick offworld until after Jason had already died. So unless you wanna go with the idea that Jason actually at most was Robin for a few months and ignore every other story with him as Robin that was then just supposed to be read as being set after Batman #416/Nightwing: Year One.....its made fairly clear that even without us being actually shown on panel the first time Jason called Dick or Dick reached out to him again, whichever it was....I mean, one of those two definitely happened. Because otherwise you’re suggesting that Batman #416 or Nightwing: Year One were literally the ONLY times Jason and Dick even interacted, period.....because that’s the timeline.

Every which way you look at New Earth continuity, those issues were of Dick and Jason’s FIRST encounter, and so saying this never led to any kind of bonding between them after that because Dick didn’t pick up or Jason died before he could use the number....like, it basically implies that Dick and Jason only met once the entire time Jason lived with Bruce and was Robin, and has there ever been any interaction between them after Under The Red Hood that suggests these are two guys who literally only met ONCE and once only, and only knew each other by reputation before that?

Nope. Because the issues that have them interacting as brothers are all still canon, the events within them are canon, and thus that relationship between them is canon. They’re just supposed to be read as having happened AFTER Dick and Jason met in the new retconned ways of Batman #416 or Nightwing: Year One....hence why the former opened with the caption: One Year Ago, and the latter was similarly just meant to retcon the specifics of their first meeting.

But it literally doesn’t work to acknowledge Jason saying to Tim that he was a Titan too once, in reference to the two stories he teamed up with them, and then act like the parts where Dick was the complete and total opposite of an aloof, bitter asshole to him just....somehow got cut out of that story.

Its literally only fanfic that insisted on that interpretation of Dick and Jason pre-Death in the Family, (well, at least before someone told Scott Lobdell about it, I’d guess, lol, because like....I bet more than anything he just heard that fanon take and figured it made sense and ran with it because he thinks the only way for Jason to be a bad ass is if he’s hard and broody and isolated and alone, and he obviously can’t be that if his family like, loves him lfashiofhalfsh, don’t be ridiculous.”)

Anyway. Its not like I feel like everyone needs to be a Dick Grayson fan or agree he’s the best Robin or most important or even feel a need to make comparisons or rank the brothers at all.....but given that the experience of seeing a character you relate to be condemned for shit they didn’t do or unappreciated for stuff they did do IS such a hugely relatable experience and that’s WHY its such a huge fanfic trope......like, that one particular thing is always gonna be the thing in Batfamily fandom that always just makes me RAAAAAH with thwarted rage over my inability to make a mind ray gizmo that makes everyone share my opinions and nobody else’s. Knew I should have paid more fucking attention it science class.

You can write dynamics and characters any way you want, nobody’s saying you can’t, but just....when you then make a point to use actual canon to back up your takes on Jason and Tim, but revert to this fanon in order to prop up the two of them as misunderstood and unappreciated by Dick and thus they’re totally right to view his attempts to hug them or express affection as him overcompensating and feeling guilty about being an asshole before....like...

Bah. Its just really annoying to consistently see the one and only character in the Batfamily who makes a point to regularly express affection for his family and his desire for them to be more like a family....like, rewritten as this pompous douchebag that has never understood them and that’s why they’re totally justified in being written as treating him (who btw, a shit ton of his fans DO like and relate to and project upon due to his being a canon rape survivor)...like when they end up treating his attempts to show physical affection in stories like its a VIOLATION that they want no part of and he’s yet even more of an asshole for never getting this.....when there’s over a decade of comics full of Dick physically showing his affection for Tim and Tim very much appreciating it....just like Dick did the same with Jason when he was Robin, and Jason, again, was shown appreciating it, not treating it as a refusal to respect his boundaries.

That more than anything is what bugs.

Anyway. LOL. Yeah wtf, this is literally just me thinking out loud as usual, and I stg the actual inception of this post was just me rereading TNTT #31 again today and then immediately after going to read some fic which was a Mistake as winning bingo and getting three fics in a row with a line about how like....Jason resents Dick trying to hug him on his birthday because its clear to him Dick is just overcompensating for having been an asshole to him when they were younger and like....sigh. Epic, eternal forever sigh. Oh, fandom. Why. Whyyyyyyyy.

I just....I defy anyone to look at this scan and tell me how they see anything remotely along the lines of Dick resenting Jason for replacing him and being an asshole to him because of it or at least just aloof, and Jason resenting Dick because he was aware of this and never got the approval or recognition from Dick that he wanted and needed. And again, whenever you offhandedly reference Jason having been a Titan in pre-Reboot continuity....this is what you’re referencing, meaning you’re literally saying that THIS happened every bit as much as Batman #416.

(Btw, the trouble Dick references as Jason and the Titans bailing him out of, was them rescuing him from being kidnapped and brainwashed yet again by the Church of Blood, and it revealed that they’d secretly been controlling him for over a year before that. So....its in the actual literal aftermath of THAT, that Dick offers to take the fall with Bruce to keep Jason out of trouble, and selling all that as though it was Dick’s fault. Which....sounds like pretty consistent Dick Grayson characterization to me...just saying).

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calzonekestis · 5 years

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My Endgame thoughts in 3,160 words and 17,025 characters. Under a cut. Spoilers, obviously.

Really. Truly. The whole thing.

Well. I texted a friend as soon as I got out, and I told him “that was a very good movie peppered with lots of shit that I didn’t care for at all.”

I don’t know what I think about it. If it was good or bad. If I like it or not.

If you read spoilers but didn’t see it, and we’re mad, I get that. I was mad too. I wrote most of this last night, and I’ve had to go back and amend it.

Also, please check your Tony vs Steve bs at the door. I like them both to varying degrees. That said I take issue with Steve’s choices and characterization at the end. We’ll get to that.

The Tony fans at least can say their boy saved the universe. They’re going to be mad still, but at least he went out in the best way possible if he had to die. Which he didn’t, but... we’ll get to that too.

The people who will be mad the most? Cap fans. Sharon Carter fans. Black Widow fans. Thor fans. Iron Man fans, probably, won’t be mad so much as sad. Actually, no, mad, because they probably wanted a happy ending for him.

So yeah. Is it “bad” if it makes so many people mad? Or are they just choices they didn’t like? For me, there was a lot of that. There was also a bit of characterization I didn’t like.

I’ll say this though, because the Steve thing that has everyone mad? I’m mad too, but per their time travel rules?

Steve didn’t erase Peggy’s family. They still exist in our timeline. Steve created a new timeline for himself to go live in. We don’t know if he stopped HYDRA and saved Bucky in that one, but I mean, we can assume.

So everyone complaining that he let all that shit happen? No he didn’t. This is an alternate reality he’s living in now.

If we go by what they established about changing the past not affecting the present.

But then we have Joe Biden Steve at the end, so... unless that’s a Joe Biden Steve who went from his timeline back to ours once he grew old. Not a Steve that existed and lived in the past of our current timeline. Then it actually works without contradicting their own time travel rules.

IMO... they ignored/ruined his character arc... but due to their aforementioned time travel rules, Steve going to the past wouldn’t affect that the present that he’s leaving.

So he COULD stop HYDRA, find Bucky, prevent Howard’s death, warn Hank and Janet about the missile.

That would all be an alternate timeline though, and our Bucky would still be the Winter Soldier.

So yeah, they contradict themselves... and completely fuck over Sharon Carter in the process. You know Steve didn’t tell Sam who his wife was, because he didn’t want him to tell Sharon that after kissing her he went back to marry her Aunt thus creating an alternate timeline to live in.

That’s the present being affected by him going back in time. Your time travel rules suck, Marvel.

So the children and family Peggy had? They still exist in our timeline, but not the timeline Steve created. The reality Steve created.

Okay so they don’t explain it, so this is just me trying to make sense of it myself. They say changing the past doesn’t change the present you left from, so unless Bruce was wrong and they’re contradicting their own rules Old Steve can’t have been actually out there all this time.

So I guess even though he didn’t show up in the gear and with the time machine when we see him, he did earlier, and just went to wait by the lake with the shield to be all dramatic? He probably waited to return until his Peggy died, and then he returned at some random point maybe like a day before they planned to send him back. He knew they would be there, so he just waited in his old man clothes.

That’s all I can think of.

So retroactively?

They had Steve kiss his wife’s alternate reality niece. I like Sharon Carter in the comics, I like what little they did with her on film.

They did her so dirty in the MCU, in the comics Peggy is almost a footnote and just part of his backstory. Sharon is Steve’s true love. Whether you ship them or not, they made Peggy out to be a bigger deal than she is in the source material.

I’m not here for pitting women against each other, but... God, the only woman the MCU has done dirtier is Betty Ross. Who should have been there with her dad at the funeral. Acknowledge her existence, Marvel. Yes they’re estranged, but maybe say having her die made Ross stop being such a dickhead and realize what really mattered.

Calling Peggy the love of his life is bullshit. Yeah, he had a date. Had. He never made it, due to being frozen. I don’t agree that they loved each other, tbh. I saw someone say they each had an idealistic, at times unhealthy attachment... but not love. Frankly? That’s not wrong. They liked each other. It never developed into love. Not in the timeline/reality we followed for the past ten years.

If this was their plan all along, then why did they introduce Sharon as a potential love interest?

Peggy is his past, Sharon is his future. The Lana Lang and the Lois Lane, respectively.

They didn’t plan this. It’s clear by how sloppy it is. It’s just so haphazard and insulting to all the characters involved, and yet Evans seems to be on board with it which disappoints but doesn’t surprise me.

Sharon didn’t have much screentime in the MCU, but every moment she had was important to the plot. She was one of the only agents that questioned Pierce’s orders. She held Rumlow at gunpoint even though the odds were against her. She let Steve know where Bucky was. She gave he and Sam back their gear. A lot of her scenes in Civil War got cut, and she got screwed by making it an Avengers movie instead of a proper Cap film.

She also got screwed by fandom. People acted like known like fucking toddlers, all because she was getting in the way of popular ships. Emily Van Camp was terribly harassed online, people calling her Steve’s beard or that it was icky and gross. Evans even said it was icky, which wasn’t that supportive of him... and then...

I liked Peggy in The First Avenger, but Hayley Atwell’s lowkey/high key narcissism is known within fandom circles, how she turned on Emily Van Camp and Sharon as a whole and threw shade at cons and on twitter and such. That left a bad taste in my mouth where I no longer care for the character at this point.

And they complete ignore/regress Cap’s arc of moving on. The fact he’s not the same man who went into the ice which is something even Whedon realized and addressed when he had him snap himself out of his Scarlet Witch!Vision.

The line from TWS they sampled for the trailer about the world changing and none of them can go back?

That was a lie. What’s ridiculous is that is the same exact directors, same exact screenwriters?

“Some people move on, but not us?” Well in that regard he had, so fuck that.

Speaking of regression, Thor’s?

I’m of two minds. He had depression and PTSD, but in my opinion, that’s end result wasn’t what Thor’s end result would be. He probably felt like he failed his people, but Jesus Christ, turning him into the Big Lebowski... fat jokes...

He becomes king, half his people are slaughtered and then and then he just... abandons the rest? To drink and watch his friends play video games? That’s sad. I think Thor would have felt like he failed and be hurting, but still try to do his best for the people who were left and still needed him? Instead of letting Valkyrie do it and the at the end to officially giving her the burden of ruling and fucking off into space?

And then at the end, he *officially* throws the burden of ruling in Valkyrie’s hands. Not that she isn’t capable, but it isn’t and shouldn’t be her responsibility.

“He’s being who he is, not who he’s supposed to be.”

That would be nice if it didn’t invalidate his arc. He didn’t want to be king at the end of Thor: The Dark World either, but at the end of Ragnarok he accepted it and was at peace with it.

Also, he didn’t need the hammer. Ragnarok made that clear. I’m glad Steve took it back with the stones, and I know it was more Thor needing to know if he was still worthy after becoming Big Lebowski... but it wasn’t needed. They just wanted Cap to wield it, and for them to have something else blunt to hit Thanos with.

This is the easiest money Natalie Portman made in her life. I feel bad for my friend who is a big Jane fan, as it’s literally maybe 15 seconds.

Nice to see Pierce, Sitwell, and Rumlow/Crossbones back, even if it’s only for a flashback and they’re all still dead in our reality. Or it would be, if it didn’t make the latter two out to be dumb. I mean, Rumlow isn’t a genius but he’s not just a dumb meathead. He wouldn’t just hand over the tesseract, he’d bring Cap to his superiors to ask “yeah hey what the fuck?”

Also, having Cap say Hail HYDRA is just... gross.

...Alternate timeline/reality Loki has the tesseract. I guess he’s the one the Disney+ series is going to follow. He’s wiped of all his development, though.

Vision is still dead. I guess maybe Shuri will rebuild him? Or it will take place between Civil War and Infinity War

So Guardians 3 is going to be about finding the alternate timeline Gamora who is now stuck in this one, huh? And I guess Thor is now a Guardian, or he’ll leave them between movies?

The alternate Nebula, I’m torn on. I think they could have gotten through to her, and she would be willing to team up with him. and would be willing to team up with them to kill Thanos. She never told him where the Soul Stone was. I mean, that’s why she aligned herself with Ronan. To kill Thanos. She hates Thanos.

Her wanting to make him proud and earn his favor despite what he did to her is heartbreaking on one hand, but the loyalty, when it’s been shown she’ll be disloyal and desert him if someone promises to kill him... idk. Btw.

Nebula should have gotten to kill Thanos. I don’t care that Iron Man started and is their poster boy. I’m sorry Tony fans. She deserved it more than he did.

Something else I’m curious about... was Peter Parker’s entire class killed? Not just Ned, the whole class. MJ, Flash, etc.? Because his entire supporting cast doesn’t seem to have aged at all in the Far From Home previews.

Also you’re telling me that in those five years, May never confronted Tony? Or if she did, we never saw it? Boo.

Oh, another dumb thing. Banner. Hulk. Professor Hulk. We don’t see how Banner made peace with the Hulk and became Professor Hulk, that all happens offscreen which is so cheap. He’s also just annoying throughout the whole film, and treated as comic relief? Also, the uncanny valley was deep this time around.

I’d honestly rather Cap had died as well, rather than the ending he got. Rather, if old man Steve didn’t show up, and there was just a cliffhanger of him being lost in time? Which has precedent in the comics? That would have been great. Instead of the bad characterization.

I’m indifferent to Tony’s death, honestly. He could have retired and raised his daughter. He could have died. I guess it’s cheaper to just kill him off and not worry about paying Downey for cameos they wouldn’t be able to resist.

Okay, the other death. Nat’s. I don’t care for it, but it worked. When I say it worked, I mean her motivations and the fact she at least had some autonomy. It was still fridging. It’s gross. It sucks.. but at least it wasn’t exactly like Gamora’s where she was a victim. I mean, she is a victim. A victim of gross writing, but... I like the character, you’re killing the only female OG Avenger for angst and drama... I would have preferred it was Renner, but her reasons worked even if I didn’t like it. I do think it would have been even just as heartbreaking/tragic though, it Clint had to give up his life for the hope of getting his family back. A devil’s bargain, they’ll be alive, but you won’t be and won’t see them again.

I question the hell is the point of a Black Widow movie now. Why should we care? Don’t get me wrong I like Nat. I have nothing against self contained, one-off adventures... but... it will be a prequel that doesn’t develop the character at all or see her grow and it’ll be inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. It may be enjoyable, but do we need to see it? It’s the Solo situation.

Do we need to see how the character became the character? What purpose does telling her backstory now serve, aside from just making people sad? Do we see how she started so we can appreciate how far she came, though? I can already appreciate that. You don’t need to twist the knife by making her origin her swan song. They can’t bring back our Nat, but who knows. Maybe the next villain will be Kang, and we aren’t done with time travel. Maybe we can have an alternate timeline Nat come into our universe like we did with Gamora.

A timeline where Clint was the one to die. I can deal with that, if they give ScarJo the money. I guess.

SCOTT LANG SAVED THE UNIVERSE. Well, actually. Also, a rat. A rat is responsible for saving the universe. I mean I laughed, but we couldn’t see Scott get himself out? He’s still my boy.

He’s probably my favorite character in the film. Seeing him and Hope reunite in the end battle was nice and made me happy, the way they didn’t miss a beat and got to working together. Him trying to keep it together when he talked about losing her. The end scene with them and Cassie. The fact she called Cap “Cap” and they shared a glance. Sucks for Scott to have missed five years of his daughter’s life, through.

Also, it kinda sucks that along with the people brought back, they couldn’t bring them the likes of Frigga and Quicksilver. Yes, they died, but you can still revive them in the present. You don’t have to make it so they never died. Maybe Quicksilver will Maybe in the WandaVision show, especially now that they won’t have to worry about a competing Fox version. Introduce her ability to warp reality. He was rumored to have been on set, and so I was expecting to see him in a flashback at least. Alas.

SPEAKING OF REVIVING DEAD CHARACTERS THOUGH. Why couldn’t like, Carol, use the gauntlet to revive Tony before they sent the stones back? She could take it. He didn’t need to stay dead, except for the fact... you know... Downey is expensive.

Something I find hilarious?

The kid from Iron Man 3 is at the funeral.

That kid knew nothing about the film whatsoever, except for the biggest spoiler? Cause if they invite HIM back to be at a funeral scene... whose funeral would it be, that he would attend, aside from Tony’s?

Oh, and SamCap. People, calm down.

I like Sam, Sam is worthy of the shield, Bucky’s not quite in a place where he’s ready for it anyway. In the comics Bucky becomes Cap, and then Sam becomes Cap after him. They can reverse the order. Bucky can still become Cap after him. Sebastian still has four movies left in his nine movie deal.

I’m curious about the Disney+ show now though. If it will be retitled, if they announced a fake title ala Serpent Society for Civil War. Although. I have a fear.

I don’t trust Marvel and I can see them killing Sam by the end of the Falcon & Winter Soldier series.

And then Bucky will take up the shield. Mackie’s 40. Idk how much longer he’ll want to be doing this, and he’s said in interviews he had no interest in bringing Cap and would like to see Sebastian take a crack at it, that he likes Falcon being Falcon.

Maybe age isn’t a factor. Bettany’s in his 40’s. Cheadle’s in his fifties. Paul Rudd is an ageless immortal who claims to be fifty. None of those are physically demanding roles though, not to the scale of Cap. The closest would be Chadwick Boseman, who is a year older at 41.

Age aside, I can see them doing it. That’s kinda the shit Marvel would do.

“Yay! We’re so progressive! We’re making Sam Captain America to placate his fans before we kill him! We won’t do that *just* yet in Endgame, we’ll wait to kill the black guy until he’s done helping out this other white guy figure out his place in the world!”

Now I’m gonna be anxious about that for the next year or two.

But so I think the shows are for characters on the shelf movie wise. Idk if when the show is over, we’ll see Mackie as Captain America in Avengers 5. It would be cool, but idk.

I don’t know if they’re even thinking of Avengers 5 at this point, or plotting out things like Guardians and Black Panther and Captain Marvel. And Eternals. And all their new Fox characters.

I guess the new Avengers line up will be Captain Marvel, Black Panther, Ant-Man, Wasp, SamCap, and Spider-Man? Maybe Doctor Strange?

Wanda retires to TV. As does Clint maybe, to train Kate Bishop and/or his daughter. Rhodey and Banner are just around.

Also. Banner and Thunderbolt Ross, at the end. Ross and the Hulk. Both in the same scene. Neither acknowledging each other or having any interaction whatsoever. Odd.

I keep hearing rumors about a Thunderbolts movie tho, from someone who was accurate with all of their Endgame leaks. I wonder if they want Ross to be the Fury of that which is why they’ve kept him around.

Bucky recently led the Thunderbolts but also Zemo is so ingrained in their history and I don’t see them working together at all.

I guess you could bring in Bernthal’s Punisher by that point if you want. Elektra. They won’t do it but they could.

Ghost would be a good fit, tho I don’t wanna see her be forced to kill people again. I can see them forcing her to work of a sentence. If she’s still alive, cause God if she was snapped and went 5 years without the Quantum energy... but yeah.

Bring back The Leader as a villain finally. Crap, I’m plotting a fanfiction.

https://twitter.com/rogerwardell/status/1070465411387404289?s=21

Idk. I just. Am disappointed but not surprised tbh.

Everyone knows I don’t like MCU Clint, but the callback interaction between he and T’Challa with the latter remembering his name was nice I guess. The final battle as a whole was nice I guess.

OH. And the exchange between Dr. Strange and Wong about if he brought everyone, and if he anted more? Probably not the intent, but to me it just seemed like a big “shut up” to everyone wanting the Netflix and Agents of SHIELD characters to cross over.

Also, a final critique?

The whole fake scripts, not giving actors a script thing. I hate it. I know like Mark Ruffalo and Tom Holland are notorious for letting spoilers slip, but I legit believe that a reason why A LOT of the actors got fake scripts was not to prevent spoilers but to prevent any of them going full Ed Norton and throwing a fit about the quality of said script.

Not letting the actors know the context of the scene they are performing is not only disrespectful but it’s broken and what can you expect but performances where they’re legitimately incapable of giving it their all?

That’s all I got for now. I guess.

I know it’s a joke, “I loved everything except for the stuff I didn’t” but seriously? I enjoyed everything except for the stuff I hated. Does that stuff ruin the movie? Do I not like it because I’m petty, or because it’s bad? You can not like something, it doesn’t mean it’s bad... but I think certain choices... were bad. Were very bad.

Was it shit sandwiched with awesome, or awesome sandwiched with shit? Do they balance each other out? Your mileage may vary. I haven’t decided yet.

EDITED: I replied to this in another post, a point by @chujo-hime, but I’ll copy/paste it on here since more people are likely to see this than our conversation.

“There’s no point in doing BuckyCap now that they’ve fridged Natasha”

I can’t fault you for feeling that way, and I don’t entirely disagree. have a theory on how Natasha could return despite them saying it couldn’t be undone.

Do what they did with Gamora. Take a version from an alternate universe/timeline. Maybe one where everything is the same, except that Clint died instead of her.

Whether or not they do this? Doubtful. Unless with the money they’re saving by letting another actor go (ahem) they give it to ScarJo to lure her back.

I mean, they have Kang back now. Next to Ultron, he’s one of The Avengers’ biggest villains. He’s also a time traveler, so there are ways… idk.

I’ve still not fully processed it. Whether Marvel is smart enough or cares to take advantage of their out, they have it. If nothing else, fans can exploit it in Fix-It fics.

ANOTHER EDIT:

Oh, what was the point of Ronin? I don’t mean sad Clint, I mean Ronin, aside from selling more action figures? He wasn’t even Ronin, they made him into The Punisher Lite. Ronin wasn’t Ronin, but I mean Clint hasn’t been Clint imo so...

#endgame spoilers #avengers: endgame spoilers #spoilers #Avengers: Endgame

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secretlymagneto · 5 years

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Why We Hate Steve’s Ending so Much: The Continuity of a Character Arc (Endgame Spoilers)

The comics and Marvel movies have never had direct continuity. Take Quicksilver. In Avengers: Age of Ultron, he was not a mutant at all, and his entire character arc of being the son of Magneto was erased. In the X-Men movies, (Days of Future Past, Apocalypse) he has another name, is more American, and has a totally different personality. In the comics, he’s a serious leader who reflects upon himself and his ultimate fate of becoming like or avoiding his father. Each of these iterations is vastly different. Sometimes, comic to movie adaptations change. Even movie to movie, if they are set in different universes (MCU or X-Men).

This shouldn’t, however, be the case for things that take place in the exact same universe.

i. The Glaring Issues

There’s something about retconning a character or their character arc in a supposedly consistent franchise that bothers me. Perhaps it’s because it’s never said if this story takes place in the same universe or not. Sometimes characters change from world to world, which would make sense. Even the comics do not bother me nearly as much since modern iterations of characters need to change with the times.

It is when the writers and directors of their own material become confused that the usually excusable retconning has gone too far. That’s right, I’m talking about Endgame again.

ii. The Writers

The writers of Endgame, the ones who orchestrated the ins and outs and likely fixed most of the plot errors, have stated that Steve and Peggy are in a continuous timeline that has and will always be canon. This follows the prevailing time travel theory that you cannot change the future through the past, and that the events that you do alter will not alter anything but only be inevitable. (AKA, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban time travel).

In the Markus-McFeely version, Steve would have to lay low in fear of being discovered as Captain America. He shouldn’t alter or doom the timeline he is in, in fear of splintering it. Additionally, he’d have to sit by and do nothing as he witnesses history unfold before him. Do you really think Steve wouldn’t join the Civil Rights movement? That he would watch the Cold War or the Vietnam War from his nice little suburban home? He’s STEVE ROGERS. He does unreasonable things all the time just because he wants to make a difference. Even if he gave up all the heroics, his moral compass would be far too great to allow him to remain passive during historic events just so he doesn’t fuck up time itself. (Also he kisses Sharon who would be his niece and that is so gross on so many levels)

They wrote all of the Captain America movies. They know that Steve’s main character arc is about moving on. Peggy tells him to move on. In Avengers: Age of Ultron, he says that the man who wanted a family and a settled down life was “buried in the ice”. He talks about how life has changed, and how he has changed with it. He talks about moving on in Endgame. His character essentially regresses, and for people who worked on these movies and wrote his arc, they should be able to round out his ending in a way that suits this narrative. Not one that makes him go back.

iii. The Russos

In the Russo theory, Steve goes back in time and then creates a splinter timeline. (Technically, this allows him to change history seeing as he’s from another time). This being said, what if he changed time too much? If he saves Bucky, there’s a possibility that certain deaths won’t occur in his timeline, therefore creating a divergence that could possibly doom it. He’d also have to deal with the fallout of having two Steves. Does he have to deal with the conflicts in all the Avengers movies again? Does he just get his younger self to do it?

What about Peggy’s canonical husband and children? *cough* from the show *cough* He interrupts her destined life in order to be with her, and he knows she would be happy with them but for some reason, he really wants to go back to his ex when their relationship isn’t even certain. They were in a crisis situation when they met. Would they really remain just as compatible in the aftermath? I love Steve and Peggy’s dynamic. I think it’s really cute and I think that they have genuine chemistry, but I also know that they’ve only been dating for less than a year and the way Steve goes back in time basically makes his relationship with Peggy a “certainty”. If it doesn’t work out, what’s he going to do? Leave? Wouldn’t Steve feel guilty of depriving Peggy of her ACTUAL husband?

As I’ve said before, Steve would never leave Bucky behind, either. After he spends three movies trying to save him, there would be no reason for him to leave so soon.

iv. Counterarguments

Some people say “why should it matter? Steve can still be a good friend even when he’s old.” This is true! But he also misses a lot of lost time he could be spending with Bucky. Peggy had literally told Steve to move on. Bucky had barely interacted with 21st century Steve, on the other hand. Now Steve abandons him for someone who literally told him to move on and basically does what Peggy does to him. Steve grows old without Bucky like Peggy grows old without Steve. Steve would never burden someone with something that he himself has gone through. He’s empathetic. He cares about people, and he obviously cares about Bucky as he’s gone out of his way to help him destroy 70 years of brainwashing.

v. Conclusion

The writers are seriously confused as to what they want to happen to Steve, and this is just bad writing. While the Russos say one thing, and the writers offer another, I think that the fact that they have to debate about this post-script conveys just how lazy the writing of this ending is. It’s out of character, narratively unfitting, and has so many flaws that viewers, critics, and even its own producers are scratching their heads. Endings shouldn’t be confusing after a movie is released. The writers and directors should know what they’re doing with their beloved main characters before they set out to do it.

The continuity of the Captain America story arc in the MCU is a mess, and it’s not Steve from different universes. You can’t blame this on multiverse this time. This is just Steve. Poorly written, weirdly retconned, Steve. I feel bad, seeing as I want him to have a happy ending as well. But this ending makes no sense, and it's glaringly obvious.

#endgame #endgame spoilers #avengers #marvel #steve rogers #bucky deserves better #movies #rant #critic #peggy carter #bucky barnes #russos why #steves ending

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sunshinesunsethappiness · 5 years

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Time for some speculation! Some spoilery stuff for future episodes from filming stuff and other info sprinkles throughout

- I already made a post about this after Todd’s comments in TVLine’s May Sweeps I think Jessica Parker Kennedy will be back in some capacity next season, at least during the crossover. Plus I feel like they’ve invested so much into her character that they’d want to keep her around in the universe at least if not on the show since she’s from another time

-As for Nora, I go back and forth on how they’ll handle her storyline. I do think there will be some repercussion of her timetravel on who she is. Obviously just the fact that Iris plans to raise her differently should make a big difference regardless of if Barry disappears or not. And I like the idea of her gaining a twin.

However, and I’ve written about this before, I don’t think she will be fully erased. At the very least any other version of Nora will be played by the same actress, but I also think there will be some essence of Nora that will survive, because Nora being completely erased would essentially be a character death and I don’t think the show will go that dark. After getting to know her the entire season as their daughter, her being fully erased would be traumatic for Barry and Iris. Barry and Iris will still have memories of Nora regardless of what other children they’d have in her place so they’d still heavily feel that loss.

That’s why I think that while there will be some measure of erasing/change to her character, I think they’ll avoid having it go too dark by having some essence of Nora retained and by keeping the same actress. A soft erase if you will. This is what I wrote in another post:

This is the Flash and I feel like in things like this it goes beyond science and things. Meaning that even if Nora ends up erasing this version of herself the story will be that. despite that technically it would be someone else if Barry and Iris had twins instead, some essence of Nora will remain and that child will be Nora (albeit with different experiences). she’d just be ‘reborn’ as a different Nora. I think it would be too tragic otherwise (and it would be tragic enough like this, since Barry and Iris would still live with the memories).

(as an example:it’s the only way to explain the existence of the doppelgangers on earth 1 and 2 and even other earths. It’s very unlikely that on earth 2 Barry’s parents, Iris’ parents, Caitlin’s parents, Ronnie’s parents, Cisco’s parents etc etc all got pregnant at the exact same time as their Earth 1 counterparts. Somehow those people are born no matter when the pregnancy happens and what the other circumstances are)

I’m not sure what that essence being retained would look like, though. (Maybe she’d be able to have her memories from both timelines or something?)

And alternative theory completely separate from being erased has to do with the negative speed force:

I think Nora’s (partial) turn to the dark side will only last for one episode, but I think the effect of using the negative speed force will last longer than that. Episode 21 is called the girl with the red lightning, so it seems like she’ll still have that red lightning, but filming pics show Nora and Barry (and the team) working together again and a conversation with Barry, Iris and Nora, so I think the anger issues will be solved next episode and then 21 and 22 will deal with the aftermath.

In the 2016 rebirth comic Barry at some point has the negative speed force. Apparently in that run the negative speed force messes with your emotions, (I think that’s what’s happening with Nora). Also, apparently in this run having the negative speed force slowly starts killing Barry.

So maybe in the show the negative speed force also starts killing Nora, or starts zapping away her speed?

Some finale pics were released that show Nora attacking Thawne but then stepping back and looking at her hand like something is wrong. Like many, I thought that might be a sign that she was being erased, but there was one thing that I didn’t understand: why the symptoms started showing after she attacked Thawne. It could be a delayed response to something that happened earlier, but with the introduction of the negative speedforce it might actually be that something is happening with her because of that.

We know that Thawne created the negative speed force so maybe that has something to do with why something bad seems to happen when Nora attacks Thawne?

-Perhaps in order to save her life they have to sever her connection to the speed force. Which would mean she could never time travel again. They take her back to the future and say goodbye?

-Perhaps Barry takes over the negative speed force to save Nora’s life?

There were some pics of Barry and Iris in the future looking at something (episode 22). The scene looks to be bittersweet. They look kind of sad and like they’re comforting each other a bit, but not completely broken so it could easily be a saying goodbye to Nora while knowing they’ll meet her again when she is born type situation. (this could also work for the new version of Nora theory)

#the flash #flash speculation #nora westallen #flash spoilers #the flash spoilers

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fatedvoyage · 2 years

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actually, yeah, lemme break it down as simply and straightforward as i can

multiverse = multiple universes = alternate universes = alternate timeline = “what if”

all of those terms are the same thing in marvel. when you say, in marvel, that something is an “alternate universe” or is “in the multiverse” or “in an alternate timeline” or you see something prefaced with “what if...”--what you’re saying is that it’s canon, but in a different universe running parallel to all other universes.

let me be specific.

earth-616 is The Main Comic Timeline, and has been since like, the 40s with cap, namor, the invaders, etc. the “multiverse” may not have existed as a publication idea in our world, but the canon in-world timeline claims those comics as being part of it, warts and all. when marvel wants to explore an idea, rather than doing a reboot (cough dc cough) they start a new “universe.” that’s how the ultimates universe started, where the avengers are somewhat the same, but more modern. the PR side of it was trying to create something more modern and more accessible to the new-to-comics scene. the in-universe explanation was that it’s a different earth that is in a completely different plane of existence or “universe” to the main timeline so that events don’t effect each other. meaning that everything that happens in the ultimates runs are separate and canon for that run on that earth, and have nothing to do with the main comic universe timeline.

in order to keep these things straight, marvel uses earth numbers. so the main timeline is Earth-616. this is well known. this is comic canon from the 1940′s to the present. ultimates takes place on Earth-1610. Earth-3490 is where “natasha” stark marries steve rogers and prevents civil war. Earth-51920 is set in the year 1870 in the west in a small town called timely and is essentially a cowboy au. Earth-96662 is a pirate universe. the animated avengers assemble is Earth-12041. there’s a whole slew of alternate universes, where the differences range from extreme to eerily similar to The Main Timeline.

(side note: there’s also temporary earth numbers, which is when media is clearly set in another universe (cough mcu cough) but no official number has been given. a great example is the marvel’s avengers game--it’s been given the number Earth-TRN814. it’s essentially a fan designation until official word gets put out about it. feel free to look up more here.)

the reason comics people are pissed is because there is absolutely no reason for the mcu and comics to have the same number. the mcu and comics do not have the exact same history. things are different, we all agree to that. that difference, following marvel’s own process, deserves a separate earth number. the two can exist as separate earth numbers, with the film having it’s own canon and the comics having their own canon, and following marvel’s own longstanding canon, should have different earth numbers. saying that the mcu is just an “alternate” earth-616 timeline just... doesn’t make sense. like, the general rule is that if you’re exploring something that differentiates from The Main Timeline Canon, it gets another earth number--even if all you’re doing is exploring what if steve and sharon got married, something completely plausible within the main canon. exploring different possible “timelines” or choices generally makes it another earth, another universe, and it gets its own number.

every single other piece of marvel media has accepted and abides by this rule.

marvel’s avengers (video game), avengers assemble, other comics, books--literally everything marvel has ever produced has respected that if they’re going to throw out Earth-616 as a number, they’re abiding by the entire 80+ years of comic canon. if they don’t want to do that, then they pick up another earth number. the fact that mcu is not abiding by this is frustrating, confusing, and incredibly infuriating for people who like to keep their canon consistent.

#[ general ] ooc.#[ ok to reblog ]#[ like if every single 'what if miles morales is X' coming out rn ]#[ gets a separate universe ]#[ the mcu... should get one ]#[ it's honestly kind of insulting to both comics and the mcu ]#[ that it doesn't get it's own universe designation ]#[ rubs face ]

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