#like just let people exist. the plural community has existed for a long time and a lot of it was outside the did community.

[ancient-reverie]

making and filling out "profiles" of all of us in this head, and realizing sorting out who actually likes what and prefers what is more helpful than we thought. generally we all like and dislike the same things, so we all end up doing the same things. but finding out preferences is very eye-opening.

[sophieinwonderland]

r/systemscringe user ponders the question of whether they would still hate endogenic systems if we stopped calling ourselves systems. It goes... predictably.

Before going on... let me just stop and say how sad I think it is that u/DustyArcade is befriending people to bait them into revealing personal details about themselves for Reddit Karma.

While it seems hopeful that they're more open-minded than some of the others on the general concept of plurality, this is a really gross behavior.

Spoiler: the answer to this question is yes!

But before we get into that...

PSA: Beware @/Cains-Coin-Shop

Now, I am going to get into the comments, but before I do, we need to take an intermission for a PSA regarding u/DustyArcade. When looking at their post history, I ran across this.

The blog has apparently been reinstated in the week since that post.

And they're apparently an anti-endo tulpamancer.

I remember running across this not too long ago, thinking about responding, but deciding not to. Though given that this user is baiting people into friendships to post to Reddit, WATCH OUT FOR THIS BLOG.

I don't know of this is their bait blog or just another blog they happen to run. But either way, they aren't a safe individual to interact with if you're concerned about being posted to r/systemscringe.

Now, back to our regularly-scheduled debunking...

"They're already saying they don't have DID/OSDD but they're still faking it" is some of the wildest reasoning I've ever seen.

Now, "used by" is a pretty interesting use of words. Because sure, there are plenty of DID/OSDD systems who use these terms. But remember that "plural" was created in the 90s as an alternative to the medicalized "multiple." Likewise, "collective" and similar terms were created to distance people from medicalized terms like "system."

It's pretty clear that u/NonamesNolies has no understanding of plural history, which does get pointed out by u/DustyArcade to their credit.

Pretty sure the equivalent term before "endogenic systems" was "natural multiple."

Normally at this point, I would point out to u/NonamesNolies that the ICD-11 acknowledges that you can have multiple distinct personality states without a disorder.

I would point out that the creators of the Theory of Structural Dissociation have said spiritual practices and hypnosis may be able to result in the creation of self-conscious dissociative parts of the personality.

I would point to the chapter in Transgender Mental Health, published by the APA, which stated that you can be plural without a disorder or trauma.

But I won't do that because I know for a fact they aren't willing to listen, and just prefer to call any psychiatrists who disagree with them grifters. And yes, that's an actual thing they did, which I will get to at the end of this post!

Meanwhile...

Really just... going straight for those cult accusations, huh?

Funny from the science-denier.

Anyway, it's amazing how completely wrong they are on the term "multiple."

Yes, originally, the term was shared. And it still is to an extent. But then as the endogenic/non-disordered community broke off, they coined and popularized "plural" as an alternative to avoid medical connotations.

Plural was NEVER a DID/OSDD-specific term. It was always inclusive to all systems from the beginning.

But there you have your answer. It's not about the terms we use. It's about our existence. The language we use doesn't really matter to them.

There is... a whole lot in this interaction that it's hard to know where to begin. For one thing, most tulpamancy is viewed as psychological. And I imagine that even most spiritual tulpamancers would dispute their practice being considered "religious."

But to u/doubtful_messenger's assertion that endogenic systems need a parasitic relationship with DID, I'm just going counter that endogenic plurality through various names has existed for a long, long time.

The explanation of some forms of plurality as a mental disorder is fairly recent, only arising in the past couple hundred years. Before that, any instance of plurality was viewed as spiritual. Endogenic systems don't need a DID community to exist.

The tulpamancy and daemonism communities, forming completely independently of the larger plural community, proves that.

Finally... there's u/DustyArcade saying they thought they were turning into an endo, which I think I'll just let speak for itself.

...

The final comment in this thread I want to mention is from u/Kamari-mari, who I feel perfectly encapsulates the anti-endo point of view.

"Nothing you say matters because we already made up our mind and won't read anything that contradicts our preconceived notions."

And shoutout to u/bugzxvi for their addition of congratulating u/Kamari-mari for bragging about not being able to read three short paragraphs. It really pulls the whole thing together.

...

Okay, now I referenced u/NonamesNolies calling psychiatrists grifters, so let's dive into that next!

r/Systemscringeing on Transgender Mental Health

Quick note: That's not a typo. r/systemscringing is a new hatesub like r/systemscringe, but exclusively for systems to make fun of other systems.

The relationship between transgender mental health and plurality, including DID, seems pretty obvious to me. How many systems have headmates with various genders? How many of those experience dysphoria while fronting? How does the gender of nonfronting headmates affect the fronters? How do these factors affect transitioning?

This stuff is super important for doctors to understand when treating plural patients.

And it's wild how u/NonameNolies just immediately jumps to hating a psychiatrist for acknowledging the existence of endogenic systems.

This gets even worse in the comments.

What is the logic supposed to be in this argument? "If you're not a trauma specialist, you aren't qualified to say that plurality can be caused without trauma?"

How does that track?

I mean, surely, not being a trauma specialist means there's a better chance you'll run into plurals who aren't traumatized than someone who exclusively works with trauma victims, right?

"You can't say things other than X can cause Y unless you're an expert in X" doesn't actually make any sense.

Imagine if you decided that to say "diseases other than cancer can kill you," you needed to be a cancer specialist.

That would be pretty silly, wouldn't it?

Can we just take a step back for a moment and imagine something for a moment...

You are Eric Yarbrough. You worked hard for 8 years to earn a doctorate in psychiatry.

You've served the LGBTQ community tirelessly in the psychiatry field since, serving as president of The Association of LGBTQ psychiatrists, among many other roles.

You've become a Distinguished Fellow of the American Psychiatric Association, one of the highest honors given by the APA.

And some rando on Reddit just called you a grifter and said you should be ashamed of yourself because they're upset you don't support their bigotry in a book that itself was reviewed and published by the American Psychiatric Association.

...

Anyone else just feel like anti-endos treat psychiatrists the way Trump treats judges?

[orange-orchard-system]

Hi, I would like you guys' input on something if you're comfortable

Is it bad/rude that as a singlet I want to be plural? I'm not trying to romantacize it or anything (heck I was hyperfixated on DID and did a lot of research on it for like a year straight), I understand probably better than most singlets the struggles, but I can't help feeling a soul-deep sense of longing just towards the idea in general

Probably influenced by the fact that I'm a lot more identity fluid than most singlets but yeah... I want to be plural so badly and I'm really conflicted cause isn't that like... Rude?

No, it is not rude at all. In fact, this is what drives some people to become plural!

See, plurality is something that can be achieved purposely through practices such as tulpamancy. Tulpamancy is the practice of creating other headmates, consciousnesses, or persons (the term used to explain the process differs depending on preference and text; the general term for these created beings is "tulpa(s)") to live alongside their creator in their body/mind. It can be done unintentionally, but if you want to become plural, then you'd probably be looking into resources for intentional tulpamancy. If this sounds like it interests you – whether that means you just want to learn more or you think you might want to create a tulpa – then I'd recommend some of @eeveecraft's resources on the subject. A masterpost of them can be found here, but I'd particularly recommend their Tulpamancy Guide and the FAQ for their guide. Although the tulpa community is not one-to-one connected with the wider plural community, tulpamancy is still recognized as a practice that can allow someone to become plural, typically through repeated interactions with an imagined entity until it begins to form its/their own autonomy and sense of self [and become real, or their own person]. The community also has a great number of resources for bettering communication between headmates, creating innerworlds, and the like.

However, before you jump into any practices like tulpamancy, I do want to let you know that what you describe is a very common experience for those who already are plural and just don't know it yet. Before discovering their plurality, many systems describe having an undescribable connection with the plural community or longing to be plural. Considering you mention having an especially fluid identity, perhaps this is an angle you should look into? It may be possible that your longing is something closer to subconscious recognition, or a desire to be open with yourself and others about plurality that you're suppressing. Maybe this isn't the case and you really are a singlet, but I see this often enough that it felt prudent to suggest it.

I recommend trying out some basic exercises, such as seeing how it feels to call yourself plural, tracking your identity and preferences for any patterns, and practicing talking to any headmates you might have, especially before you take that step of making a tulpa (assuming you're interested in doing so). Tulpamancy can be a delicate process, and it's better to go into it with an understanding of your mental situation (and if you have any pre-existing headmates) than not. (I mean, hey, who knows? Maybe you have some unintentionally created tulpas hanging around your head. Probably best to check before you go making another one, don't you think?)

But, again, even if you're not plural, wanting to be plural isn't rude. Some say it is, but, eh, I don't really agree. I don't think wanting to be plural is the same as erasing our struggles or romanticizing our disorders or whatever. Being plural can be a wonderful thing, and I don't blame anyone for wanting to partake in plural joy. The only thing to consider is that if you're looking to become a created system (a person or system that caused their own plurality), you need to make sure you're prepared and have enough time and patience to manage any hiccups that might come up. For instance, there might be identity confusion or conflicts in the early stages of headmate creation. Tulpamancy resources and spaces typically offer advice on these kinds of troubles, but it's good to go over them and make sure you know what you're getting into before you start. After all, even if a created headmate isn't the same as a baby, bringing someone into this world is still a big commitment. Make sure to make that commitment responsibly.

In short, no, wanting to be plural is not rude. It would be rude to claim our struggles aren't that bad or that a disorder like DID isn't that big of a deal, but wanting to be something that can bring positive change to someone's life is not. You might want to investigate the possibility that you're already plural, but even if you're not, I don't take wanting to be plural – in a way, wanting to be like me – as an insult. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, as they say!

[quirinus-quire]

How Moon Knight #26 Opens Up a Conversation About Spiritual Plurality Alongside DID

Moon Knight #26 (2023) came out 3 days ago, and gave us the long awaited focus issue on the recently introduced character to the franchise, Dr. Yehya Badr, aka Hunter's Moon. In this issue, Dr. Badr is shown in a therapy session with Marc Spector's therapist, Dr. Sterman. In this session, he explains that after the last time he was resurrected by Khonshu, his consciousness began to merge with that of previous, deceased fists of Khonshu.

[ID: two comic panels from Moon Knight (Volume 9) #26. In the first panel, Dr. Sterman sits on a chair in her home. She says "One moment, please. You're telling me that the... persona of a dead fist of Khonshu took over your body?" In the second panel, Dr. Badr faces the wall and responds to her. "Yes and no. It was more that... we became one." end ID]

Badr is experiencing the memories and identities of these former Fists of Khonshu, as if they are his own.

[ID: two more panels from the same comic, both characters are in the same places. Dr. Sterman says: "So that is what you meant by a flawed resurrection. The chorus that Khonshu imbued you with, the memories of all the firsts who came before you..." she trails off, and Badr picks up with: "Yes. The levee has broken. And at times, I cannot tell where I end and they begin." end ID]

What Badr is experiencing here is by all definitions a plural experience. Religious and spiritual plurals are very much a thing in the real world, and it is not uncommon for plurals of all origins to have blurred identities and memories, as Badr does with his system.

While Badr is definitely not the first case of spiritual, religious, or non-disordered plurality in the Marvel Universe, because Moon Knight is a book with a protagonist with Dissociative Identity Disorder, this gives Marvel the perfect opportunity to have an explicit discussion about plurality existing in other forms beyond DID.

The majority of representation for plurality in media centers around Dissociative Identity Disorder, as does Moon Knight. Plural representation that is not textually described as DID is usually a supernatural experience, such as possession by a ghost or some other supernatural entity. As we have already mentioned, spiritual and religious plurals do exist in the real world, though probably not in cases like Badr's, they still are very much real and deserve to be represented just as much as people with DID do.

While the plural community at large has become more accepting and aware of plural experiences outside of DID in the past couple decades, we still need to break this barrier in media representation. Marvel would be a great place to do it, as they have such a vast universe of so many diverse characters, and already have plenty of characters with DID. Badr may not be exactly the perfect candidate, as his system's origin is not very realistic, but he is still a huge opportunity to open this discussion.

Badr and Marc are already textually described as brothers, they have a complex relationship that could be strengthened further by their shared experience of plurality. There's plenty of conversations to be had about the ways their plurality differs- Marc, Steven, and Jake have very hard memory and identity barriers, while Badr and his system have quite the opposite.

As a system ourselves, this is something we've long waited for, both in Marvel and in all forms of fictional media in general, when it comes to portrayals of plurality. Let's hope Marvel gives us this arc!

[plural-culture-is]

I've been wondering if I'm a system lately, specifically with a couple of fictives. Mostly my problem is, how do I get over feelings of shame over the state of my own life, and the embarrassment of sharing a body? I feel like it's been a huge roadblock in trying to establish communication. It's just, the one or two characters I suspect to be knocking around are pretty capable people with many exciting experiences, but there's pretty much nothing going on in my life. Demeaning jobs, no friends, nothing to do where I live, completely shot concentration and energy. I just feel guilty? I also don't want to put too much pressure on them to "fix" my life or "live up to my expectations" either. Although, some help and company really WOULD be nice. I don't know what to begin to offer them and what they could possibly gain from my company, and overall I don't want to trap them in my life lol. It's also hard to give up privacy and independence for both of us, I think. Experimenting with fronting sounds good I theory but I think we're both insanely distrustful and controlling so it's going to be difficult. Some other things, I've been pretty obsessed with them and I feel like this has contributed to them appearing, but I honestly can't imagine them liking or respecting me for that. I also have OCD, so my intrusive thoughts aren't helping establish trust either. Anyways, this is all over the place, but any advice? I've been trying to connect with his interests lately, and I've been listening to music that I associate with him, and just simply talking aimlessly to him, as ways of trying. I feel like it has been working a little. This message is supposed to be anonymous, my Tumblr has been glitching lately. Thank you.

depending on your origin, chances are your headmates are there to help you, and as long as you treat them with respect, I'm sure they wouldn't mind doing that. our old host felt guilty for being in a bad situation and "trapping" us (mostly fictives of characters he was obsessed with) there with him, but that was literally why we existed, to keep him company so he could stay mentally stable, and then when it was possible, help him out of the situation. even if you might not be in a situation exactly like that, I still think your headmates, if they exist, would be there to help. also, they probably can't leave the system, so regardless of what you do they're gonna be "trapped" in your life. and it would be kinder to let them share your life rather than have them be trapped in the back of your mind, possibly doing nothing at all. it's completely fair to be worried about privacy and independence, but that's why boundaries are important. you could set rules about not invading on each other's private things, you could make a fronting schedule so everyone has time to be independent, etc.. but before you can do that, you need to be communicating to some extent. you need to establish trust so you're both okay with giving up control sometimes. it's also fair to be worried about them not liking/respecting you for obsessing over their source, but think of it this way: if you didn't do that, they wouldn't exist, and existing is a pretty great gift, regardless of how much is going on in your life. and when you trust them to have more control, they could do things to make life more exciting for them if that's an issue. one last thing, there's a reason systems are called systems (idk if this is an actual reason but I'm going with the metaphor lol), systems in bodies (e.g. nervous system, circulatory system) are a bunch of organs that all work together to achieve a common goal, and if one goes out of wack, then the whole system goes out of wack. and that's basically what any definition of 'system' is, things working together. plural systems need to work together to function smoothly and have a good collective life, else there can be bad consequences. you're not there to oppose each other, which is why communication is so important. I know communication can be hard, but maybe try asking your headmates how they feel, because maybe they don't have the feelings towards you that you think. again, they're stuck in this body with you, so I think the best course of action is to embrace it, and enjoy the pros that come with being plural, like being more connected to your headmates than you could possibly be with anyone else.

[rayssyscourse]

DID is just a type of plurality but I think the issue is that y'all are treating plural experiences like they're a unanimous group and not just a massive umbrella term.

Same with treating "endogenic" like a unified group. There is way too much stuff that falls under endogenic to be making broad statements about it. Yes, some systems can be narrow minded and never interact outside their comfort zone, but that hardly has to do with origin. A lot of truamagenic systems have "endos DNI" and can't even get the definition of endogenic right much less have entertained respecting those systems as systems.

We've experienced a ton of trauma gatekeeping from dissociative communities because of how complex our trauma was, and harassment because our system formed before trauma occurred. Our experiences with trauma from within the dissociative community or by DID/OSDD systems as well have often been demeaned or ignored.

Same with if we try to talk about how syscourse and invalidation of endogenic systems worsens our dissociation. Being told you don't exist long term can fuck you up. It's happened multiple times where other dissociative systems have taken that to trigger me on purpose because they don't think I'm real anyway. Hell if I try to talk about how unsafe the dissociative community is too like this, I'm also likely to get ignored or mocked.

So... yeah this really isn't just an "endogenic" issue.

I'm also not really sure what willing to entertain other possible perspectives is supposed to mean? If telling you that you don't exist, you don't have to take that. I'm not "existing in a bubble" if I block and report someone who says nonbinary isn't real. Hell, self-fakeclaiming is an issue for all systems as is, why make it worse?

this ask goes over a lot of different topics--albeit good ones!--that I don't think I can really do justice to responding to in one post (let alone as tired as I am rn, lol). I will put emphasis on the whole 'telling people they don't exist' thing; I've always found that argument rather hypocritical. first off, endos obviously do exist, I mean, they're sitting right there whether you like it or not. second, if your point is that endos are traumagenics in denial, guess what's not good for people who you think are suffering from dissociation? telling them they're not real. feeling disconnected from ones self and from reality is, like, one of the number one factors of dissociation. so for those, at least, that say endos are traumagenics in denial but tell them they're not real, that really only ends up harming people with (supposed?) mental illnesses, which is the opposite of supporting mentally ill people (which reasonable anti-endos want to do.)

[rin-and-jade]

This question touches upon the notion of “traumagenic” and “endogenic”; as well as The Theory of Structural Dissociation. The Theory of Structural Dissociation seemingly supports endogenics as it states that there are “natural born” systems. They would be “endogenic” because they're not born from trauma, (as those who are “traumagenic” are).

I recently had a discussion with someone in a yt comment section about those two terms and they pointed me to you, so I just want to see what you think.

I believe in endogenic systems; because why would a book (the DSM) made by those who don't even experience plurality determine whether something exists or not? And as systems, those who are heavily categorized and misunderstood or looked down upon because they don't fit the singlet category, I feel as though we should embrace different forms of neurodiversity.

My questions are: what is the real line between "traumagenic" and "endogenic"? Are systems who were born as a system and weren't exasperated by trauma (like an endo) any less valid or real than those who were exasperated by trauma (traumagenic)? Or because of that theory, if that's how all systems work, aren't all systems "endogenic"?

Before reading: Long post. This purpose is to discuss and look at things in another pov, not intended to debate current beliefs/opinions. TLDR Provided. Last notes at bottom.

To clarify first, im in a neutral stance between the endo and traumagenic community as i focus more on the better of living for any kinds of plural people. Your question did seemed interesting and i had ever discussed this by myself on free time, so i do got some answers for you!

The line between these two are its origin and functionality, to put it in my opinion. The unique thing about plurality is that, i can totally see it being possible that it can exist outside of trauma.

Well, let me explain it to you like this:

An intact personality is where multiple facets are cohesive, and these facets that gives you that said personality is your identity. It's how you see yourself, and act like who you know. Basically, it's how you can act differently in different situations be it at school, at home, at somewhere else etc.

The thing about where personality is located in our brain has been a complex topic for scientists, if i remember correctly, there wasn't a specific spot for it as our brain has multiple areas with different functionality, and these regions cooperating creates a tangible output like how you react, or your typical behaviors.

I kept finding singlets discussing things that looks like really mild system things, and especially from this one youtube video (im so sorry i couldn't provide the link, it has been months ago i had watched but it discussing this too by a doctor or something. lmk if i have to find it again) quotes that the brain fools us into thinking theres only one 'kind' of us, not by it's exact words but close. These people can have different levels in terms of sense of personality unity btw, so not all singlets are the same either.

Now the origin and functionality for a traumagenic is different, because these states are being separated, and compartmentalized due to trauma. The presence of amnesia blocks the other side's of selves sometimes to severe degrees, now acting independently. There is also proof that the grey matter and the communication between regions are different, compared to a healthy brain (i can find the links for this too if needed). Well, you could read more about DID if needed.

So no, neither are less valid, but that doesn't mean both works the same or have the same processes either. Which means, not all systems are endogenic by origins.

Lastly, this is from what i had learnt and connect the dots over many sources i had read to ensure a wide perspective, nuanced understandings in topics. I am fully aware if some of you seem to disagree or see my views as wrong,, we have our own pov's ofcourse. i don't want to fight about validating my pov alright? Im also open to feedback/extra questions, im as well aware of the existence of fake/bad endos and do not support them.

TLDR: There are real life experiences and proof that supports the idea of being plural in mild/different ways, or ways that are different to traumagenics due to the complexity of the brain. Neither are the same in terms of how it functions and where it came from. Neither are also less valid.

- j

[tmarshconnors]

Standing in Solidarity with Israel

As we witness the complex and ever-evolving landscape of the Middle East, it is essential to express our unwavering support for the nation of Israel. A land with a rich history, a diverse population, and a determination to thrive in the face of adversity, Israel has long been a symbol of resilience and hope in a turbulent region.

A Haven for Diversity: Israel is a nation built on the principles of democracy, freedom, and inclusion. Its diverse population includes people from various backgrounds, religions, and ethnicities, living together in a vibrant, multicultural society. This commitment to diversity and pluralism is a beacon of hope in a world often marked by division and conflict.

A Struggle for Survival: The state of Israel was born out of the ashes of the Holocaust, a tragic period in history where six million Jews were systematically murdered. The establishment of Israel in 1948 was a pivotal moment, offering a safe haven for Jewish people who had suffered persecution for centuries.

Resilience in the Face of Adversity: Throughout its history, Israel has faced numerous challenges and threats to its existence. Yet, it has consistently demonstrated its resilience, enduring wars, terrorism, and international pressures. The Israeli people have shown remarkable strength and determination in building a prosperous and thriving nation despite the odds.

A Quest for Peace: Israel has repeatedly expressed its willingness to engage in peaceful negotiations with its neighbors. The pursuit of a two-state solution, which would establish a secure and recognized Palestine alongside a secure and recognized Israel, remains a vital goal. It is imperative that all parties involved come to the table and work towards a lasting peace in the region.

Innovation and Progress: Israel has become a global leader in innovation and technology, contributing to advancements in fields like medicine, agriculture, and cybersecurity. Its creativity and entrepreneurial spirit have earned it the nickname "Start-up Nation." Israel's contributions benefit not only its citizens but also the world at large.

Humanitarian Aid and Assistance: Israel has a history of providing humanitarian aid to those in need around the world, regardless of their nationality or religion. In times of crisis, Israel has sent emergency relief teams, medical assistance, and humanitarian support to countries facing natural disasters or other calamities.

It is crucial to recognize that expressing solidarity with Israel does not mean ignoring the suffering or aspirations of the Palestinian people. It is possible to support Israel's right to exist and thrive while also advocating for a just and peaceful resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that respects the rights and dignity of both Israelis and Palestinians.

In these challenging times, let us stand in solidarity with Israel, a nation that has overcome immense obstacles, embraced diversity, and contributed significantly to the global community. Together, we can work towards a future where peace and coexistence prevail in the region, benefiting all its inhabitants.

Hamas … cannot walk away from this unpunished.

[exosupport]

You've probably been asked this before but this has been eating away at me for awhile. Is it "valid" as a member of a probably-not-traumagenic system to have a subsystem from (mostly) exotrauma? And is it okay to call that subsystem traumagenic? - William

Yes that's valid.

I will say this as many times as the plural community needs to hear it

The labels you use to describe your system are just labels, if they feel restrictive or stifling or are hard to keep up with you don't have to use them at all if you don't want to

There is no wrong way to exist as a system. I don't care about syscourse but like literally if someone is telling you "you're wrong for just existing" they’re never going to be right or have a well adjusted opinion. All this to say, as long as it's not Directly hurting others, it doesn't matter what your system is like. Existing as you are is never a crime.

Whilst people with exotrauma do need to take care to be considerate to people with current trauma surrounding something and not assume those experiences were the same, exotrauma is still genuinely trauma. If it gives you all/many trauma symptoms than it doesn't matter if and when it happened it's still trauma. You deserve the space and resources to aid in your recovery.

As someone with both kinds of trauma: you are loved and welcome here. You deserve kindness and acceptance and patience. You don't have to have everything figured out or be able to define every experience exactly. You're enough as you are and who you are is something amazing

Hopefully this helps some! Guilt is never easy to deal with but here are some tactics I find useful:

Imagine someone else is having these experiences. Is what you think about them less severe than what you think of yourself? Let that be a bench mark for if this gullt comes from a valid place or if your reaction to it is proportionate.

Try to trace the logic. Who is this action hurting, if anyone? If you have hurt someone, does encouraging your guilt help them recover or add to stress?

Whilst guilt can be irrational at times, it's important to work with your emotions. Let yourself grieve what perceived losses you have. Being kind and patient to yourself

These emotions are not indicative of your worth. No matter what you're struggling with you deserve to be alloted kidness and patience.

I hope things are going well for your subsystem, if you ever need support for your exotrauma our inbox is always open, please take care.

[spell-jars-and-black-wolves]

On the topic of New Age beliefs and how so much of it is just repackaged Christianity:

We were almost sucked into the New Age cult a few years ago. We had only barely begun our journey of deconstructing from Christianity and were dabbling in New Age practices such as "raising vibrations" and studying starseeds. We had been desperately searching for a place to belong and didn't feel like we fit in at school or in our town. A large part of this was due to us being autistic and queer and just generally feeling like an outsider in our community, and let me tell you something: New Agers will absolutely prey on this vulnerability to drag you into their cult.

For a while we genuinely believed that we were a starseed, feeling as though we were from someplace outside of this world. Now, for a bit of background on us: we're a plural system, aka a bunch of people sharing one physical body and brain; it's stated in our bio on this blog and every other blog we run. Our plurality is heavily influenced by our spiritual beliefs, particularly the idea that we are a gateway system, meaning many of our headmates come from some sort of outside source rather than our brain itself. And we do believe that the folks who enter our system from outside are in fact from other worlds than this one, alternate timelines and such. This belief has had a positive impact on our acceptance of our system and made us more open to understanding the experiences of other people and beliefs.

Now, back to our point. While we understand how our spirituality affects our system, that doesn't make us as a whole, or the physical body we all inhabit, a "starseed". We also collectively share a few otherkin identities, primarily wolfkin, faekin, and fallen angelkin. But back when we were active in New Age circles, we didn't fully grasp any of these concepts. We fully believed that we were actually an alien from another world, sent to Earth for the divine purpose of aiding humanity and ushering in a new age of prosperity and love. We explained away our autistic and ADHD traits with starseed stuff, but something about it never felt... right.

One thing we were caught up in for a while, and what actually inspired us to write this post, was something called the "New Message from God." It's been a long time since we've actually taken a look at the website, but it's basically Christianity infused with New Age beliefs like ascending to a golden age of love and light, the idea that every so often humanity receives a new prophet to interpret messages from God/Source, blah blah blah. According to the website, our current prophet is a man named Marshall Vian Summers who started getting messages from God several years ago in order to warn humanity of a coming evil and to help put a stop to it. It's a whole bunch of doomsday Armageddon BS, but we genuinely believed it for a while just like the starseed mumbo jumbo.

We're very glad that we listened to our instincts and actually broke down what the New Message from God and similar communities are trying to sell to people, because otherwise we would have been sucked into it completely with little hope of getting out. It's really important to think critically about what you incorporate into your spiritual practices, especially if you're converting from Christianity and still hold onto some of the things the religion teaches. This stuff is absolutely a cult and especially preys on young people who feel like they don't belong anywhere, giving them a false sense of having a community full of people that love them. But as with every other cult out there, this love is conditional; these people don't actually care about you if you don't believe in the same things as them. They will love bomb you and dress up their beliefs in pretty packaging and ribbons in order to conceal how harmful it really is, so you never see the damage it's doing to you before it's too late for you to escape. -Dylan

[sophieinwonderland]

Anti-Endos Don't Deserve a Safe Space!

Alright, if you saw this it in the tags, you can guess what I'm responding to.

Anti-endos and neutrals need to learn that anti-endos are just bigots and bullies looking for an outgroup to dehumanize and send hate to. They don't care about science. They don't care if anything they say is true. They only care about hurting people for being different!

Since when is Tibetan Buddhism a closed culture? Let alone a "VERY" closed culture?

In reality, Tibetan Buddhism is an open religion and a proselytizing on that encourages people around the globe to join! And the Dalai Lama, the highest spiritual authority in Tibetan Buddhism, has even encouraged Christians and the West to use Tibetan Buddhist meditations.

“Many Christians tell me they believe in Buddhist meditation, which can be learned by Christians. We teach right attitude. We teach meditation, which can be quite deep. These would be things that the West can take, and I think it is clear that Buddhists should practice certain Western methods, too.”

These are the words of the religions' highest authority figure!

Stop trying to declare the Tibetan Buddhist religion closed just so you can use them as a talking point to spread hate!!!

Since this is invading inclusive and pro-endo tags, as always, my response is going into anti-endo tags. If anyone takes issue with this, please hold your own community accountable for invading our spaces and take it up with @the-helside-sys.

I don't believe anti-endos deserve a safe space to spread hate but I'm willing to allot them one so long as they aren't breaching into inclusive and pro-endo spaces and aren't tagging hate posts like this:

But I'm actually not done yet!

I want to respond to another one of their posts!

First, this isn't true. A scientific theory has to be testable, and has to be tested and supported by evidence. But it's not necessarily "generally accepted as truth."

And with soft sciences, what constitutes a theory can be a bit questionable. See many of Freud's psychoanalytical theories.

This isn't really relevant. It's just an important point I want to bring up for people putting too much stock into psychological theories as if they're accepted facts.

Structural dissociation is meant to cover a very specific form of multiplicity.

Endogenic systems aren't ignoring the theory of structural dissociation because the theory of structural dissociation does NOT support anti-endo claims.

The author of the theory have stated that it may be possible for self-conscious dissociative parts of the personality to exist through other means, citing hypnosis and mediumship as examples:

The theory of structural dissociation's own creators are, at worst, neutral on endogenic systems acknowledging that trauma may not be the only way for self-conscious "dissociative parts" to form.

And you will not find a single paper saying the only way to be plural is through trauma. It doesn't exist!

Anti-endo views are not backed or supported by science or experts in any way!

...

Now, back to the title... Like I said... anti-endos don't deserve a safe space. But this isn't about what anyone deserves to me. It's about escalation.

I'm willing to let anti-endos keep to their bigotry in their own spaces for the time being so long as they behave and keep it there.

But continuing to post hate in our tags is unacceptable. Currently, I avoid posting in anti-endo tags to keep the peace except for posts like this. And even in posts like this, I don't post in DID or OSDD tags out of respect even when discussing those topics.

But it's certainly something I could do. Were anti-endos to continue to erode boundaries between spaces and encourage their followers to invade inclusive and pro-endo tags, I would have no problem appropriately tagging my posts that are about DID with "#DID" and similar tags. It wouldn't be against the rules of the site because my posts are about the topic I tag it with. And why maintain a boundary if it's only going to be respected by one side?

So to people who feel it's important to maintain separation between communities... I'd highly advise you do better at policing your own community's crosstagging so that we can all maintain our safe spaces, whether you feel we deserve to or not. Thank you! 😊

(This applies to both the explicitly endogenic and pro endo tags, as well as the plural and plurality tags given that "plural" was a term coined by non-disordered systems and is inherently inclusive.)

[orange-orchard-system]

I do enjoy being able to make a difference in people's lives, whether that's helping them with a big discovery, reassuring them that they're not the only ones with a particular experience, sharing a tip they find helpful, or just letting them know that, hey, plurality exists! Here are some basic terms for it! Here is how it applies to what you were talking about and why I think you might like to know about it! ... All of that fills me with pride.

But... sometimes I really hate that being myself like this is a radical act. That a lot of the work I do is really nothing more than unabashedly being myself for others to see, and the implications that has on how little plurality is known, how unsure and afraid so many of us are, how many misconceptions and assumptions are made about being more-than-one. That who I am is something I have to educate others on, something I have to be cautious about opening up to others about, and not something I can just casually mention. I'm happy that people can learn about plurality and themselves through my actions, but... it's bittersweet, because it reminds me of how unknown we are; that we have a long way to go in terms of awareness and acceptance of even the most clear-cut, well-known, easy-to-understand presentations of plurality.

I'm not new to this conundrum. Long before we started working with the plural community, we've been hanging out in queer communities, especially aspec communities. If I had a cupcake for every time I heard a "bringing out the PowerPoint to explain my sexuality/gender identity" joke, I'd have enough cupcakes to fill up the entire dessert table at a potluck, and probably have some spill over the edges onto the floor.

It's just... sometimes I fantasize about laws for plural rights and protections being passed. The work it will take to reach that point* is so daunting, and while I am hopeful about reaching it in my lifetime, it doesn't change that I am currently a tired uni student who is still trying to figure out what to do with my career. I am writing analyses on medical texts that mention DID in-between my assignments for class. I am posting jokes about my system when my fatigue leaves me lying at the top of the stairs, unable to do anything but scroll on my phone. There is so, so much to do and I am so, so limited in what I can do.

* to me, this point in plural activism and progress is half symbolic and half a literal goal I hope we achieve together. Symbolic, because at that point, we will have made such significant strides in awareness in acceptance that even politicians and government authorities cannot ignore us any longer. Literal, because pluralphobia and its parent bigotries are still serious problems, and I'd like to hope legal protection would improve at least some systems' lives.

My system is so important to me. I don't hate them. But sometimes I hate that the world is at odds with us. Sometimes I hate that I can't just be.

[I'm not giving up any of the work I'm currently doing, if that was a concern any of you had while reading this. I've just been thinking about how] the plural community is one that never really feels quiet in the way other communities I've been in feel quiet. There's always this underlying feeling, this go-go-go attitude, this sense that one of the main reasons we stick together is because no one else gets it, and we're constantly fighting against the tide for a moment to breathe. We're not constantly drowning – I see many stories of acceptance and support out there. But we're a community very aware of the water snapping at our heels, I'd say.

Goodness, I love the work we are all doing. I love each and every story of success. But sometimes I wish we could all have a quiet night in.

[dahlialuv]

Raven Discusses:

Perosecutors

Discussion Questions: is there already a word for the mixture of persecutors and prosecutors mixed? What is it and how do they work?

Please interact with the post with caution, this post has triggering topics within the discussion. Trigger warning below.

⚠️ TW for mentions of: S/H, Suicidal ideations, manipulation, delusions, abuse. (These are not main topics within the discussion!)

Lately , ive been thinking about a term we use very loosely in our system to mean the mixture of a persecutor and a prosecutor. It got me wondering, is there a coined term for this?

We have one or two parts in our multiple that could be classified as this. They just seem to be both sides of the coin!

I know that prosecutors can be classified as persecutors and vice versa, but why not just make a term that fits both definitions into one? Wouldn't that make it easier for us to understand them in general? Most of the time they dont even like one label, let alone two! It just makes sense to me to have one for both.

Even though in a general definition, Persecutors also overlap with prosecutors in the area of which they both can lash out towards others. However I find it with persecutors this is definitely more of a trauma response than it is with prosecutors! (out of personal experience dealing with them). We also find that our persecutors tend to direct their anger inwards, while our prosecutors direct anger outwards. Which if this was the case for most plurals, then it would make more sense to have a term for an alter that just has anger. Anger directed towards everyone.

The term we use for this is Perosecutor! It mixes the per- and the pro- together! I believe Blair or Vlad was the one who actually came up with the term to begin. When I first heard it, I didn't realize it was something that only really existed to us! After a while, when talking about perosecutors, i realized that this was not a term that was common. Then, I discovered that it wasn't a coined term at all! That's when i started to look into the history and psychology of persecutors vs prosecutors!

Once I started taking notes on our own persecutors vs prosecutors vs perosecutors.. I realized small things that were very common traits of our own perosecutors that either one or both of the other two didn't do!

I found out that perosecutors are much more likely to try to harm the body, especially when alone in front. They also tend to be very manipulative towards those both within and outside the system. More often than less, they show not much or no remorse for their actions in the moment.*⑴ They may be more abusive towards those within and outside the system. They may be more likely to be a symptom holder or experience delusions of some sort. I have also noticed that the perosecutors within our system do not wish to recover. This is the biggest similarity between all perosecutors we have. I do not believe that all parts that have this label are inherently "bad", I personally do not believe that there are "bad" or "evil" parts within systems. However, they seem to need much more effort to get them to communicate and work effectively within the system. In our system, we have had a former perosecutor start to try and recover, so it is possible to communicate and get through to them with time and effort.

*⑴ They may show remorse later on (however within the moments before, during, and near-after they commit the action, they will not show much or any remorse.)

I would like to mention, again, that these parts are not "evil" nor are they "bad people" because of what they do. It is often a trauma response and they may not even realize what they are doing before it is too late. Our former perosecutor had no idea how he had been affecting the system until he went dormant for 3 to 4 months. After that is when he finally started to heal, as prior he had no knowledge of the repercussions of his actions. He still relapses and struggles whenever he fronts for a long time, but now he recognizes it and he comes to us for support. He still can have dark thoughts and negative intentions towards those inside the system and outside, however he is trying a lot more than he used to and we are proud of him for that.

Perosecutors can come in all different shapes and sizes. Your system's perosecutors do not have to act like this if you feel like perosecutor is the right term for them! This is just how our system works due to our heavy internal/external trauma!

To wrap this up, I would love to hear if there's already a term for this type of part within a system! If there isn't, maybe i'll coin it!

Also if anyone else has experienced a part like this within their system, I would be interested to hear about it. Maybe i'll make a follow-up post about others experiences!

Reminder that this is all personal experience based on our own system! Thank you for reading!

notes: sorry if this is all over the place, im pretty tired ! I might go back and edit a few times after posting if i feel like it.. - raven

[ablednt]

I think more people need to realize that the plural label specifically refers to Any situation where multiple sentient entities share a body full time (as opposed to possession situations where it’s an external force enacting its will on the person).

Like I mostly see this not be thought about in media discussions like if a character is for any reason multiple sentient entities in one vessel/body they’re plural literally regardless of if they were intended to be representation or not?

Plural headcanon territory: this person has amnesia that tends to go along with plurality, inconsistent behavior/interests/goals, they change identities at some point in the story in a way that suggests they are not the same person as before, i like them and they’re plural, etc.

Literally objectively plural: Two or more people share a body in any variety of way (Different sentient AI/programs share the same body/console, situations where a character agrees to be long-term possessed by a demon or nonhuman figure, someone who has a persona or entity but they’re able to act on their own separately from the character or they are never referred to as being the same person, when two or more characters are permanently fused together in any way including one absorbing the others soul, any “headspace/brainscape” situation where it isn’t clear that the person isn’t actively in control of every aspect so most headspace situations. etc. etc.)

Plural media is actually incredibly common because the plural spectrum is huge and though all of those examples were more or less fictional they all have real-life counterparts to some part of the plural community. Singlets have always been fascinated by plurality, they’ve always known it exists, and that extends to more than just fiction. Plurality is also authors who say that their characters themselves tell these stories, plurality is “We’ll finish this game when the Sonic in my head says it’s finished”, and it’s “I often feel like who I am now is not who I was before at all/I don’t recognize myself anymore” and it’s “I become more than one person, I wonder which version of myself others will like more” and it’s a million other incredibly common and ordinary experiences.

When we say that plurality is more than just dissociative disorders (and let’s be real, specifically it’s more than just DID specifically) what we’re saying is that this spectrum is so broad that you have absolutely encountered it. You can Absolutely be plural yourself your whole life and never notice because of how normal it is.

Plurality overlaps with gender-fluidity, it overlaps with creation and art in every form, it overlaps with anything that can cause an unstable identity (BPD, Autism, schizophrenia, etc.) it overlaps with having imaginary friends, it overlaps with aproximately 2 million different things.

What separates plural from singlet is that there is at least two separate entities able to have thoughts, feelings, or decisions, separate from each other. Often times that isn’t clear cut at all, you can be different versions or “states” of the same person, you can be fully separated people able to have mental conversations, you can be in between.  

Like I fully, genuinely, believe that it is more common to be on the plural spectrum than to not be on it. If I’m being perfectly honest I think everyone should have a questioning phase on if they’re actually singlet because it seems actually far more rare to me that you don’t contain multitudes, that you are the only influence inside your brain. (And if that idea frightens you that’s the ableist conditioning talking. It’s no different than be scared you have autism for example)

Tl;dr: Plurality is, in its broadest definition, any case where someone is or feels like they are more than one person or that they are one person with multiple facets/states of being/parts of them. Because it’s a spectrum and it’s incredibly broad and also incredibly normalized in everything but name, it’s actually more likely for a person to be plural in some fashion than to not be at all. If you’re reading this and haven’t ruled this out already, this includes you.

[preggomancer]

Could you explain Mel’s system a little? I’m just curious bc we’re a system, and seeing us represented in a kink setting several of us are into is really cool and more validating than we ever thought it could be lol!

OKAY SO. this will be kinda rambly BUT

their system has 5 members, at least for now: Mel (they/she/it), Cherry (they/them), Tor (it/its), Jack (he/him), and a character my brain has inconveniently named Melody (she/her). Mel and Cherry are both around the same age, Jack is in his mid-thirties, Melody is much older, and Tor is an eldritch horror so it's old as balls.

Mel fronts the most, which is why I usually just refer to the whole system by their name, but Cherry was actually the original host! Though Mel and Jack were around pretty much as long as they can remember, Cherry was in semi-denial about being plural for a very long time. Once Tor showed up, Cherry sort of flipped--they'd been trying for years to exist as one person and now they had something that was undeniably another being in their head and body. At that point Mel was like "okay listen if you aren't dealing with this I will" and sort of became the new host. This was at first really hard for Cherry, but Mel actually forced everybody to communicate, figured things out with Tor, and got them to actually function as a system.

Most of what's on this blog takes place about five years after The Tor Incident, so at this point they have a very healthy lil system going on! Mel and Cherry front the most, Jack generally avoids fronting, and Tor has only recently started fronting which is a very strange experience for it and likely will be the subject of some silly doodles! Also Melody is sort of the newest and least established member, but they're glad to have her around because who wouldn't want an extremely nice old lady living in your head??

okay that was a lot! also again, i am a singlet, so if there's anything i'm getting wrong or could be doing better please let me know! this goes to any systems or people who happen to know more than I do. kay thanks bye!!

[bandofchimeras]

Capricorn rising blues:

People always end up coming at me funny about some shit after hanging out a few times. Like babe I do not know you?? that takes years?? I'm not taking correction & direction from you, and frankly when I want advice I ask for it explicitly, after it's given consider it, then do what makes sense to me. I only follow orders from people who I respect deeply, who have proven competence, and I've decided to follow. Which is so extremely rare.

My new friend even noticed in grocery stores or in social settings people will treat me like a punk or as if I'm dangerous and need to be checked. Even the people that claim to love me or are straight up obsessed, are so highly critical or judgmental of my creative attempts or attempts at conversation.

I've finally parsed out that this is a Saturnian problem, and likely because I communicate/mask in a way that presents as authoritative, or interrogative, and come across as standoffish.

People see me as a challenge to the existing authority bc I own my own experience and experience it intensely. They then project that I think I'm better than them or entitled, or trying to take control. Sometimes this might be fair, but sometimes I'm really just Fatigued or unsure of myself and asking questions or being practical minded.

The trouble with being perceived as Cool and Authorizative is then when my genuine uncertainty, whimsy or naivete comes out it's repulsive or angering or confusing. I get treated like an uppity little kid, or people get hurt I don't want them....depending on their relationship with power and authority.

To counter this, I've tried to lead with my vulnerabilities, weaknesses, etc. We are also technically plural so this can mean letting a little front. But then people tend to see me as a Baby to care for who.....again. Needs correction.

Exhausting. I've literally lost housing, friends, lovers, and family connections over this. Some of it comes down to my own genuine behaviors, I can be pretty controlling or not check in on other people's needs & boundaries. But it's not because I don't/won't respect them, it's because my own experience is HUGE and I'm doing my best to manage this complex system or oftentimes hide and tone it down. In order to hear you and honor your needs, I need you to be extremely clear and centered in your own experience.

Astrology is the only lense that actually has helped understand this bc I observed myself acting a similar way to other ppl with significant Capricorn placements in houses of identity. Specifically romantically. It's Daddy issues or like, generational discipline issues.

And I tend to feel bad about analyzing myself in this way but when it's such a nasty long-term pattern it helps to have a framework. Especially because generationally we are all dealing with paternalism, anti-child prejudice, and dynamics that are largely invisible but run whole systems.

We do not actually live in a world that values sovereignty/independence but an illusion of it. "do what you wanna do" but only within a few accepted lanes preordained for you.

My natural existence just happens to challenge these orientations a little more than some folks. So I've been repeatedly punished for literally existing, especially growing up Catholic which is so so so hierarchical and inverts the self. And developed a conclusion I shouldn't exist. Which is where the fucking "mental illness" comes from.

When truly I just need a big enough space to flourish, interpersonally and physically, and be in community with others who culturally vibe that way.

Could also deep dive into Slavic heritage, Eastern Europeans, the legacy of indigeneity in white colonizers & immigrants & children's Liberation & land sovereignty but we shall save that for another post.

Anyways it's always a good day to check your projections on your Capricorn friends. Thanks.

If Palestine has proven anything it's that the current evil world is hellbent on destroying what is most traditional & beautiful. Being targeted for destruction means nothing about anyone's worth. What's needed is defenses and recognition and standing up to this fucking horrific out of control Bully Black Hole we have collectively allowed, aided and abetted into consuming the earth.