#ooc Talia al Ghul

[honeyplus]

I bet Talia had a journal when Damian was a baby that was like “my heart took his first step. Effervescent.”

[vioranhyperfixation]

Talia : so is there's perhaps anything you want to do once you get out of here?

Jason : yep, got it.

Talia : And what might that be?

Jason : kill joker.

Talia :

Talia : is it bad to say your father is going to resurrect him after you kill him?

Jason : yeah I know, hate him for it.

Talia : and you're still going to kill him?

Damian : mother, why are you asking such obvious question? of course he's still going to mother, what's he's after is not profit or a result, what he wants is the satisfaction of doing it.

Damian : and unlike us he has nothing to lose. So why not?

Jason : see? Demon child get it

Damian : although it would be nice if you could get something good for yourself and others while you're at it.

Jason :

Jason : I would kick you in the face have you not been in the wheelchair

Damian : good to know I'm disable then.

[timbourinedrake]

blue eyed talia can't hurt you....

blue eyed talia:

[janet-todd]

OOC: College is making me so tired. My everything hurts. I don't have the energy to interact, but have this thing I drew. I'm going to bed now and I love you all

@daughter-of-the-demons-head

[taliaalghulhub]

Shadow War Zone Issue 1

[righteousruin]

Bane's dash is one woman calling him the gold standard for men and one woman calling him an oaf, I am weeping

[whaleteeths-blog]

Just a reminder for everyone that Talia al ghul is not a rapist. That storyline was not only extremely ooc for her but the guy who wrote it (Morrison) admitted they knew nothing of her character and they retconned it themselves. Retconned means it’s no longer canon. Unfortunately this was only retconned after the dcau, so it may be canon in that universe but it is not her character. It was also an extremely racist depiction and was motivated by the rise of Islamophobia after 9/11. Talia is also not a selfish character who only cares about herself. On multiple occasions she has betrayed Ra’s for Bruce and cares deeply for Damian.

[bitterrobin]

you, batman/batfamily fan, can you be normal about parents and their flaws without making them exaggerated abusers?

can you absorb the fact that Jack and Janet Drake were not perfect parents, but they still loved Tim? and that Tim loved them enough that he tried to tear a razor sharp boomerang out of his father's corpse with his bare hands? that the Drakes were not millionaires who forced high society values onto their son for the sake of a public image? (that they weren't even rich for that long of a time?)

can you be normal about how the deep recesses of poverty affect a family unit while allowing a parent nuance? can you write Willis Todd without making him a classist caricature of an abuser? can you write Catherine Todd and Crystal Brown without portraying their drug addictions as fodder for their children's whump? (I added in Crystal bc she canonically suffered from drug addiction, but I haven't seen much of her in fics tbh)

can you accept that as much an abuser David Cain was, he still loved Cassandra enough that he utterly fell apart when she left him? That he was genuinely astonished/proud of her when she spoke to him for the first time even as she threatened him? he still sucks majorly, but you can't deny that he loved her. that's what makes their relationship so painful.

can you be normal about Talia al Ghul? can you write her without making her an ooc rapist or child abuser or cold dragon lady? can you acknowledge that every ounce of her characterization surrounding Damian is vastly different from her original pre-Morrison personality to the extent that og Talia would never even have a child in the League?

can you pick apart when a parents portrayal is out of character, that a writer made them hit or neglect their child because above all else they exist for drama and action? that you can find DC characters who actually had traumatic childhoods instead of grafting them onto a Bat-character? (> this last sentence is mostly about Tim btw)

Exploring a character's parents and how they affected them is always interesting, but I've seen fics that genuinely steer towards character assassination rather than an exploration of events written in the comics. They exaggerate a parent's portrayal not to write about a complicated parent-child dynamic but so they can have Bruce or Jason rushing in to comfort them (yes, this is about the Tim Drake shrimp fic). Idk, I think most of my ire just stems from the fact that content about Mia Dearden or Todd Rice or Grant Emerson aren't widespread, Mia specifically always gets explored in Bat-circles as someone that just adds to Jason's character rather than analyzing her on her own, in addition to the constant hell that Talia goes through in both canon and fanon.

[vioranhyperfixation]

Damian : Tood, your progress towards improved adaptation is commendable as always.

Jason : what happened to hello? How are you? What do you do?

Damian : I do reckon your response is something quite like 'dead' 'not feeling alive' or something like 'not as bad as dying'

Jason : true, anyway what it is demon child? You look happy.

Damian : do i? Well #011 just recently been given doll's to develop his productivity and creativity, and it's been going rather well.

Jason : heh?

Jason : what doll's?

Damian : barbie doll, With the maturation of his creativity, I will arrange for a customized doll to correspond to his imaginative visions.

Jason : well good for him.

Jason : what stories did he made with them?

Damian : a story about a woman who's been betrayed by her tribe, but it's partly her fault so she want to look for a change to redeem. And a star grant her wish, but the way the granting of wish from the star is not as easy as it look. Now she needs to go on a journey to be able to have her wish granted. And the challenge that #011 come up with is quite unique, his creativity is developing well

Jason :

Jason : you're saying about maturation of his creativity? That's shit not complex enough?

Damian : I'm still helping him develop the story so I'm unable to say it has.

Jason : fuck

Jason : your standards is too high that it reach the atmosphere

Damian : it wasn't really a surprise it is? You don't expect an Al Ghul to have a lower standar

Jason : Talia exist

Damian :

Damian : well, it also come hand in hand with questionable judgement.

[devine-fem]

Talia Al Ghul is weirdly the only woman in fandom and in canon that I’ve ever seen people feel the innate inclination to take away her agency as a parent away from her. Making Selina Damian’s “mother” and making Dick adopt him? It’s really weird behavior and I’m not going to pretend that it isn’t anymore.

No matter how “horrible of a parent” she may be or you may THINK she is that still doesn’t take away her rights from her child.

You people don’t do that with Bruce. No matter how shitty of a parent Bruce is you people always bend over backwards to defend him as a parent.

“Talia making Damian an assassin is bad parenting!” Bruce Wayne forcing his children to engage in compulsive violent behavior and fight crime every time the moon rises is also bad fucking parenting within itself but its really telling how only one of these things are OOC for you people.

Evil can never truly be forgiven when a woman of color does it and it shows. Ya’ll are weird and I’m not scared to say it.

[punkeropercyjackson]

Related to my prev post:

I don't give two shits if Bruce is written like a bad dad if it means we get good writing for everybody else since i think minorities are more important than a white cishet male nepotism baby unlike his butch lesbian counterpart who's judaism is an actual fundamental part of her character and since he's been written as abusive so consistently over the years it's in-character anyway

Dick can be both bi/pan and demisexual and there's more evidence for the latter than the former so making him be sexually loose is aspec erasure and mspec stereotyping and he dosen't have a thing for redheads,he has a thing for black women and to me the only guy he seems to like romantically is Roy and that adds on to his demisexuality since they're childhood best friends

'Catholic guilt Jason' is a shit headcanon that misses the major and critical part of him being Red Hood that he didn't feel the slightest bit bad about killing people and the point of his redemption was learning remorse,afrolatino Jason isn't based on stereotyping but him filling out so many black and latino cultural aspects and if any hcs for him are stereotyping it's the one that he's a slut because he's a very handsome and hot and cute goth punk man

Tim is perfect the way he is and dosen't need power ups or to get 'punished' for the oh so horrible crime of being a realistic teenage boy,he's not JUST huge a loser or a super cool dude but both at once and it's bad writing and fetishistic to ignore his wide range of relathionships that consists of mostly of women to make him a 'guys guy'

Stephanie is heavily autistic and bpd-coded so she's far from a 'normie',much less an 'it girl' but people see blonde hair and blue eyes and throw away everything else about her because that's all she's worth to them or call her an abuser and a pick me just like they do irl bpdtistic women and she's also canonically pastel/indie punk and a Team Mom but gets her presentation switched to basic and made out to be a womanchild instead

Cass had a million times more moral conflict than Jason ever did,would never in her LIFE wanna be feminine even in the chinese way and would be butch in it instead,turning her scattered speech into sign language is ableist not unlike(but not on the same level as)changing Babs' type of wheelchair disability and she'd be a better Batman than any male character in existense

Duke is only a golden child in the sense he has a yellow motif and is as disruptive and authentically quirky as his siblings,We Are Robin is a better team than the canon Outlaws,his powers are cooler than any Al-Ghul ones you could come up with,he has more femme energy than Tim does and Carrie Kelley ain't shit and only gets brought back to replace him because DC is antiblack

Damian's introduction mentality was a result of not only child abuse but also psychological grooming to get him to dehumanize himself and all his bigoted comments are explained either by him being like 12 or his writers trying to demonize brown people and anybody who thinks he's a bad person is a super-sized pissbaby with no sympathy for kids of color,shipping him with Jon is making a bisexual man into a ped0phile and Jay is good even if aging Jon up wasn't and he should be friends with Maya,Suren,Nell,Colin,Kathy,Maps,Tai and Miles,Gwen,Peni,Pavitr,Hobie and Margo from Atsv and Nico and Hazel from Pjo instead of Billy Batson or Danny Fenton or ANY Mcu characters

Talia is super hot but should be drawn in accurate arab clothes instead 'sexy assasian gear'(not that these two can't co-exist but you get what i mean),her personality is extremely rich and her stories are mega interesting,she's a good mom to Damian and literally never 'took advantage of Jason' seeing as That Scene In Lost Days was decanonized by it's writer who said it was ooc for her on his part,she should've been a mom figure to Stephanie in her Robin Days too since they would get along and she deserved her own run where she takes over Lexcorp to transform it into a force for good and become Superfam-adjacent to free herself from having only male connections

[mysterycitrus]

Hi. Your posts show up on my dash and I think you have good and knowledgeable takes. What do we do when canon is inconsistent and contradictory? For example Winick!Jason vs Morrison!Jason pre new52? Like W!Jason says child sidekicks are dumb and shouldn't exist while M!Jason had him go get sidekick for himself. How should we reconcile this when discussing the characters? Thanks.

id say as a general point of reference that consistent, foundational character traits can persist regardless of bad comics. dick grayson is an example - in taylor's run he's written as a pretty idiot but in waid's worlds finest he's portrayed more accurately as a neurotic overachiever, and both runs were being published at the same time. it's about reading enough comics to be able to judge for urself what u want to keep and what u want to discard.

there's also broader metatexual reasons for why tangibly bad characterisation exists — winick and morrison mischaracterised and villianised talia al ghul in different ways to the detriment of her characterisation. talia's writing was a combination of bad writing and sexualised racism. similar issue w roy harper — his history with addiction is rewritten and his autonomy is undermined. it's always worth thinking about why a writer might interpret a character a certain way.

wrt to jason, he's an interesting case because unlike a lot of characters he has an actual, definitive comic thats the literal foundation for his existence in modern canon - under the red hood. jason's had the worst holistic writing by a considerable margin, and so people tend to discard his appearances depending on their taste (green arrow, batman and robin 2009, the recent gotham war arc, countdown, botc, etc) but utrh is his backstory and the context for his actions. winick's jason, through lost days and outsiders, feels like the same dude and is kinda the "base" version of the character. we also know what winick thought about morrison btw.

i actually don't think most of jason's actions pre-flashpoint are absurdly ooc, because he was conceptualised as a bad dude with hypocritical morals. theres a lot of dialogue around how bias has affected jason's writing historically but as red hood it feels like a believable radicalisation imo - winick's jason could be driven to hurt others. thats fine tbc because thats what makes him an interesting and complex character, but the issue is that no one was willing to commit to rehabilitating him into the bat-adjacent, generally heroic figure he's now recognised as. i personally think that him being chummy with the bats is a lot more egregious of a mischaracterisation than him blowing up a high school. there's no bridge between the jason that gloated when bludhaven got nuked and the jason that goes to batburger with the gang. i need more than the writer telling me that they like each other in a text box.

but again thats like. personal interpretation. every character with a book has comics that’re featured on every reading list, and then its a matter of ignoring or recontextualising the stuff u personally dont agree with. tis the nature of enduring canon. the picking and choosing.

[aingeal98]

Thinking again about the al Ghuls and how DC deliberately tanked it's own writing to turn them into ooc cartoony villains because the anti Arab racism post 9/11 was just too potent for them to resist. You take a villain whos love for his family is one of his core characterisations, he's sexist and evil and runs a cult but he forgives his daughter every time she betrays him to help Batman. He lost his godson fighting nazis in world war two, he wants Batman to be his heir, to be family. Because he respects Batman's mind.

And DC looks at this and gives him a Jewish daughter who Ra's left to die in a concentration camp because in Death and the Maidens he found the Nazis to be useful allies. Nazis, who not even Joker would team up with. Who Ra's had talked about fighting against in older continuity. Whoever came up with that plotline needs to never work in comics again.

Nyssa tortures Talia into insanity and turns her into a willing member of the LoA who believes in Ra's vision for the future. Because it wasn't bad enough to assassinate Ra's, every single Asian character in DC had to be one dimensional racist evil villains. It's no coincidence this was the time period they tried to make Cass Cain evil too.

In Cass's case, the backlash to the awful writing forced them to retcon it. In the al Ghul's case, Morrison used it for Damian's story as if evil Talia and evil Ra's who didn't care about his family at all were always canon, and not just a disgusting racist retcon. And now it's the go to characterisation for them. Talia drugging Batman is still what a lot of dc fans assume is canon, even though it was retconned. And there was no reason for it to exist in the first place other than racism.

For DC to actually fix the al Ghuls, they'd have to acknowledge that Talia was brainwashed into being evil, and come up with some retcon for Ra's oocness. The Lazarus Pit is right there as an excuse. Robin Son of Batman managed it with Talia.

But instead DC seems to be working off the impression that their shitty writing for the past 15 years was the character's natural state. It's why "holding Talia accountable for her crimes" doesn't work any better than holding Cass accountable for all the terrible things she did during the garbage evil era.

DC needs to hold itself accountable instead of the characters. More of Ra's Talia and Damian bonding. Ra's runs a cult he is not a good person and it's a good thing that Damian got out but if you can't show that without relying on racist stereotypes and 00s character assassination then why are you even a writer lol. More clarification that what the Ra's and Talia did was not in character for them. Less "I helped torture baby Damian as part of his training but I felt really sad about it." That's never been what gave the al Ghuls their complexity.

Basically, stop trying to add nuance to the racist post 9/11 al Ghul characterisation and just give us back LexCorp era Talia and pre DATM Ra's. You're one of the top two comic book brands in the industry surely you can find someone who can make Damian's backstory work without destroying the rest of his family in the process.

[dameswayne]

intro + ooc 💛

⇢ Ahlan. My name is Damian Wayne. Yes, my father is the Bruce Wayne.

⇢ I was forced to create this account because of my idiotic roommate. He said, and I quote,, "it'll help you get to know more people in our high school!" like I need the help and want to get to know more of them (¬_¬”)

⇢ My pronouns are he/they/it. Feel free to call me whatever you feel suits me. Derogatory or not. I really could care less.

⇢ I turned seventeen on August 9th.

⇢ is that all I need to say? I think so.

. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ .

Ooc:

⇢ hi! this is my friend's high-school au!

⇢man's is 17 and like 5'1" 😭

⇢ this damian is seventeen. I would appreciate that he wouldn't get sent anything majorly sexual or nsfw in their inbox.

⇢everything else is fine though! free reign here.

. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ .

⇢ I run a few other blogs, which I'll put down below

@damian-al-ghul-wayne

@the-better-robin

@bstspdstr

@wayne-d

@talia-k

@b3str0b1n

. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ .

⇢ here are the other accounts that are apart of this au!

@jaimereyesbug

@billybatsonz

@half-a-goat

@roboticguy

@jonno-kent

@barthallan

@dukealicious

@luke-the-loogie

@totally-tim-drake

@midrew

@mikael1256

@percieve-me-dont-forget-me

@corus-lim-w

@maya-nobody-ducard

@j-nakamura

@j0k3r-jun10r

@maryjayden

@kon-el-konner-luther-kent

@cassandra-e-sandsmark

@cazirole

@moss-loves-dinosaurs

@celeste-dennel

@charlieorwhatever

@lilith-rose-ross

@betterthanbetterhelp

@bestboybeast

. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ .

[nakamura-j]

intro + ooc 🩷

⇢ Haiii, my name is Jay Nakamura! (gossamer) (≧▽≦)

⇢ I'm not sure exactly what I'm doing on here, BUT I'm hoping to be able to get more 'TRUTH' out there with my blog —> 'THE TRUTH'!! Not many news sources enjoy writing about certain sensitive subjects... soooo I'm here to write about them and give you the straight TRUTH.

⇢ My pronouns are he/they! But, I don't mind any being used on me. ;)

⇢ I'm seventeen & in college!

⇢ I really have nothing more to say! Thank you for reading <3

. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ .

Ooc:

⇢ hellloooo! I would like to give a few warnings to this account because erm, yeah! This was mainly a joke account at first but it'll most likely get a little serious at some points! No where am I NEAR as accurate as the actual comic Jay. I like to think of this as my own take on how I would like to perceive or even write Jay. If you don't like it, feel free to block me & move along!

⇢ Jay is seventeen, soooo don't send him anything extremely inappropriate OR nsfw asks! thank you.

⇢everything else is fine though! free reign here.

. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ .

⇢ I run a few other blogs, which I'll put down below

@the-better-robin

@damian-al-ghul-wayne

@bstspdstr

@wayne-d

@talia-k

@j-nakamura

@dameswayne

. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁. ݁₊ ⊹ .

[fancyfade]

Williamson continues to disappoint in batman and robin 2023

Like (spoilers. also CW child abuse)

I respect the general intention behind the talia portrayed as putting limits on damians instructors in the league and not being portrayed as a 100% abusive monster. It's necessary to show that, though obviously the best option would be for her not to have been portrayed as involved in raising him as an assassin at all.

But Williamson has previously done half assed al ghul retcons that went nowhere, often while later portraying them in a more unflattering manner in a way that makes me question if he was actually trying to fix writing in the first place.

He also just... is a huge fan of making damians abuse I guess like more "conventional", or more immediately obvious to see, which I don't like. Like whenever he writes damians instructors their always telling him he's not good enough or being extremely harsh in ways he needs to be saved from.

But like... previously in tomasi and gleasons writing, we see damian told that he is great. It's not unwarranted - he is incredibly talented and he works hard and does impossible feats. But i feel like if Williamson wrote those scenes he'd rewrite it for damian to do something incredibly impressive and then people come in and tell damian he sucks anyway and needs to be better and that is so NOT THE POINT. Like his childhood can be abusive... and he was treated like the heir who was going to take over*, he was not insulted a bunch, he was told he was great (while he also demonstrated capability).

Like I'm reminded of how horrocks wrote cass and david's dynamic compared to puckett (link). Where when Cass reflects on her childhood with David while Puckett writes her, she often is portrayed as happy. Even when he shoots her to keep her on her toes. She doesn't see anything wrong with her childhood! Horrock portrays their dynamic with a much more "typical" take on an abusive dad and abused child, with cass being touch starved and sad.

Williamson takes a complicated situation (raising a child in such an extreme way to kill people is abusive, but he also was supported/encouraged vocally by his family and told he's awesome (not unwarrantedly, he does demonstrate being awesome)) and then flattens it into something that is more palatable and obvious to the reader. There were these mean guys who insulted Damian and hit him or wanted to throw him to the wolves. It just sits so wrong with me to flatten a complex situation that is not immediately obvious to many people what's wrong with it into a more stereotypical situation

In terms of Talia I feel like... it is not making things worse, and maybe trying to be a little better, but it's still working off foundations that are so OOC it's hard to imagine. Like yeah realistically Williamson can't retcon Talia raising Damian as an assassin without DC editors approval probably, but given the rest of his writing I really doubt he would try to do that anyway. No matter what, the major complaint ("she raised her child as an assassin") is still there

*going by new 52 onward stories, pre new 52 was kind of unclear and I could see some arguing for Williamson's interpretation... but also pre new 52 would not have had Talia present at all (just while she's being villainized)