#race and transandrophobia

[kaibascorpse]

some of you people are so obsessed with having an acceptable group to ‘punch up’ at that you would rather pretend a marginalized group are Basically The Oppressors™ than listen to their valid criticisms about the fact that ‘punching up’ very rarely hits the intended target, and the majority of the actual damage of that act is suffered by fellow marginalized people in your own community. there is a significant difference between venting frustrations about privileged groups and just outright attacking anyone who (you assume) experiences that axis of privilege regardless of - and in many cases outright denying - their actual lived experiences. it goes far beyond just ‘venting frustrations’ when what you’re really doing is trying to find a moral justification to bully people you don’t like, and when your own desire for catharsis and moral superiority leads to ignoring the voices of the vulnerable people you hurt. you’re not ‘punching up’ - you just like punching people for the sake of punching.

[trans-androgyne]

“Men can’t get pregnant” “Men don’t need abortions” “Men can’t have boobs” “Transmen scare women, they shouldn’t be in maternity wards or the women’s restroom. Also menstrual products shouldn’t be in the men’s room” “Men don’t need women’s healthcare. We’re not treating you.” “Testosterone is gonna make you aggressive and sexual. I don’t know if I want to hang out anymore.” “Testosterone isn’t gonna make you a twink, you’re gonna have acne and be bald and ugly and sweaty and gross and get fat and hairy (these are bad things to me)” “You wear a packer? Why would you want a dick, is it like, sexual?” “Phalloplasty is fucking disgusting. It’s not like a real dick, why would you want that? You’re mutilating yourself. No, that can’t be transphobic, I’m trans.” “Lol obviously trans men can’t top, they don’t have a dick”

But you’re telling me the social construction of manhood and masculinity specifically has nothing to do with the transphobia trans men face? Yup, just “garden-variety” transphobia

[thebrightgreenscream]

Failing to combat transmasculine erasure is supporting transphobia. People don't seem to understand that transphobes are leveraging the general publics ignorance of transmasculine people to their advantage. An ignorant person is much more likely to support the information they receive first- do you want them to learn about transmasculine history and struggles? or do you want them to "learn" about ROGD and social contagion?

[cepheusgalaxy]

look guys i very strongly disagree with the "trans men hold privilege over trans women" point of view and i'm finally able to articulate why:

I think trans men don't hold privilege over trans women, because privilege is kind of a consistent thing.

Like, bear with me: I'm an abled person. I have privilege in relation to disabled people. Because, if me and a disabled person are in a Situation where this distinction is relevant in some way...I'm literally never gonna come out with the worst hand. Never. No matter what the situation is. This is a consistent fact.

Now, when we talk about different transgender identities, I think this gets more shady, because the "who has privilege in relation to who" is a relative statement. One example I saw of people explaining why in their view trans man have privilege over trans women is kind of like this: Imagine there are two passing and stealth trans people, a trans man and a trans woman, in a workplace. Then, it comes a coworker, being blatanly misogynist. Regardless of their views on trans people, in this situation, the trans woman is gonna get the worst of it, in relation to the trans man, because he will be viewed as a man.

It makes sense, and I don't think this hypothetical situation is inaccurate or anything, but I'd also like to point out why it doesn't work as a good point to why transmascs have privilege over transfems. Imagine we change about any variable in this situation. Let's say the trans woman is closeted as a guy, and the trans man is openly transgender. The misogynist coworker then would very much target the trans man in their points, especially if they are particularly transphobic. Now imagine both of them are out and openly trans, with the bonus that now both the man and the woman are gnc. Depending on other specifics, the misoginyst coworker might be bigoted to just one or both of them.

Like, do you see? In different situations, the different trans people have the worst hand. So that doesn't mean that because of the first case, trans men have it generally better. Because there are many kinds of trans men, and simply not all of them have privilege over trans women. In some cases, they might even have it worse precisely because they are trans man. So the privilege the trans man in the first example has is not a consistent thing over trans man! Maybe it's common, I don't know, but when we compare it with someone who has real privilege, like me, an abled person, I ain't ever encounter myself in a situation where I'm having it worse because I am abled in comparison to someone who is disabled.

That's why I think trans woman and trans men simply don't hold privilege over one another, simply because it varies. It depends on who the trans men and women are, it depends in what situation they are in, it depends on the people around them, it depends of so much!!! So saying that trans men have privilege over trans women sounds simply surreal!

I think that, also, the different patterns of the situations in which trans woman have it worse are important to be discussed, and that's why we have the word Transmisoginy, to discuss these issues pertinent to the nuanced oppression trans woman face (and on a similar note, that's why it's also important to have fucking words like Transmisogynoir, because a black trans woman's Situations will be different from a white trans woman's Situations and it's important to to recognize that). THAT's why I also think that we need words like Exorsexism and Transandrophobia, to identify the patterns of situations where trans men have it bad precisely because they are trans men and not something else or because nonbinary people have it bad precisely because they are nonbinary.

SO, in short, my opinion on the "trans man have it generally better than trans woman and that's why they have privilege" debate is that trans man don't generally have it better than trans woman, but some trans man in specific situations have it significantly better than trans woman and that in other situations trans woman have it significantly better than trans man and that is basically a case-to-case scenario and that's also why we need the specific words for different shapes and faces of transphobia to better understand these cases and why x happens with y at z situation. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

[miraculouslumination]

The audacity to be like "there's a problem with racism in transandrophobia discussions" while also unironically using the term "transandrophobia truther(s)"

[rebellum]

I feel like... Perhaps... Arguing that transphobia is defined by murder and that anything other than murder doesn't even matter... May NOT be conducive to fighting for trans rights.

Like... people want the right to exist as they are. They want to have access to hrt and surgeries and prosthetics. People want access to clothes that fit them and reflect how they want to be seen. People want access to medical care (eg. Getting screened and treated for sex-based forms of cancer can be impossible if you have the "wrong" sex listed to receive those tests). People want to be respected and treated well. People want to not be sexually assaulted and beaten and abused. People want to have access to housing and jobs, and the protection to not lose those things for being trans. People want access to shelters for homeless people or survivors of domestic abuse. People want name changes.

Acting like all of those things don't matter because at least they weren't murderered by an individual (and instead die of suicide or state violence, or survive and suffer) isn't okay.

[ftmtftm]

This is a long ask sorry. Recently I saw screenshots of some transmascs (usernames were understandably cropped out) saying that transandrophobia stems from “sex, which is immutable” and these screenshots were being held up as a reason why the idea of transandrophobia was stupid (and if this is the only encounter someone has had with the conversation around transandrophobia I don’t necessarily blame them because that is stupid)

I think in response to that post going around, I’ve also seen a couple people (who were transmasc themselves) accusing people that believe in transandrophobia of like, perpetuating radfem rhetoric and claiming “femaleness when it’s convenient, to victimize themselves”.

I was wondering if you had any thoughts or insight on navigating conversation about transandrophobia or antitrans masculinity when there is the occasional bio essentialist shithead, and that kind of person seems to be the most associated with the theory?

Okay so - I just want to preface this and say this is genuinely just my own personal course of action informed by a lot of my experiences having been on Tumblr for over a decade. I honestly don't know how helpful it is for others, but it's ultimately how I personally do it, so I'll share.

My go to response for the kind of people who seem to be self victimizing or who seem to be bio essentialist shitheads - and my go to response to the people who use that to say they're perpetuating radfem rhetoric by self victimizing - is honestly usually to just scroll past, sometimes block depending personal comfort, and move on.

Sometimes I do engage despite my better judgment and usually? I feel like shit afterwards because it ended up being pointless arguing. Most times I'll draft something that responds to concepts being brought up by those people and make my own post later or I'll reblog a relevant post that I've already made, but I do really try not to directly engage and I would encourage others to do the same.

Instead, I try to contribute in the ways I'm personally good at like via academia/original posts/answering asks. I feel very confident in my own opinions and my ability to back them up in response to accusations of Radfem ideals and self victimization because I know myself and I know my understanding of both Radical Feminism and Intersectional, Black, Decolonialist Feminism. I pretty constantly try to do a lot of self examination, but ultimately I'm confident in my core ethics and morals and I try to reflect that out to others in a human way. That carries a lot of weight for me personally.

That's all really important to me because this is ultimately still Tumblr and there's a lot of people in a lot of pain here. It's the piss on the poor hellscape webed site full of extremely traumatized people that have been at each other's throats over the worst faith readings of every opinion possible for longer than some users have even been alive.

When you've been here and in discourse spaces specifically for awhile - it becomes pretty obvious when a hurt person is lashing out and not actually engaging with an idea in a way that isn't focused on their own pain. I can do what I can, but those conversations specifically tend to devolve into nothing good real fast. So? It's just genuinely not something I try to dedicate a lot of time to engaging directly with. Especially because it gets really exhausting and honestly bad for my own mental health at certain points.

Hopefully that's helpful in some way? I'm genuinely not really sure if it is, but I hope so.

[gettinontopic]

Always about race with you people. Maybe you should just admit you're holding power over at least the black trans fems and stop trying to put yourself at the bottom.

Im gonna ahve a snack and take a nap.

Surely someone can articulate to anon why they're fucking stupid.

[mercedezedecrem]

It’s the fact that everytime I see a trans person have the most ungodly horrible take on transmisogny or transandrophobia, I click on their blog and their description says they are white LMAO

[theadagium]

Step 1.sees someone complain about transandrophobia or how people use the terms misandry

Step 2.check their pf bc they could be a terf

Step 3.see trans woman, but double check just to be sure they’re not a tirf

Step 4.see a lot of anti-men radfem rhetoric and anti trans men shit

Step 5.see white in their bio

Step 6.Understand

[partyinthecloudkingdom]

[genderkoolaid]

i’ve been seeing that “nooo tboy mutual don’t reblog that transandrophobia post, there are so many other non-reactionary frameworks that you can use to understand your experiences” post go around (unfortunately from. a lot of my mutuals.)

and it’s really frustrating to me bc like. i would love to hear them!!! i would love to discuss different lenses of viewing the specific kind of oppression that transmascs face, i would love to learn about different perspectives!!

but so much of what’s out there either 1) doesn’t include us at all or 2) insists that our oppression isn’t anything more than transphobia, or that it’s just misdirected transmisogyny, or that it’s just transphobia and misogyny, but no discussion of how transphobia and misogyny interact to specifically impact transmascs. it just feels so disingenuous and dismissive because whenever we talk about our experiences, no matter what language we use, we’re shut down over and over and over again.

Godddd I saw that post the other day and could not help but roll my eyes. Saying there's "so many other frameworks" to use disregards a fundamental reason why this framework is being created in the first place: transmascs, across different ages and races and other variables, feeling silenced and absent in other models of society, even those claiming to be for trans-feminist. Like if you are trying to convince trans guys to not use the term transandrophobia maybe start by acknowledging the absence of proper frameworks to discuss the unique position of trans men & mascs. & you know damn well none of these people will acknowledge how every other iteration of "transandrophobia" ALSO got shut down for being Problematic™, including "isomisogyny" which was literally just misogyny with a prefix attached to assure cis women that we would never DARE to imply that transmascs might be oppressed by the same social force as them!

But that's the problem with people trying to make the discussion of anti transmasculinity palatable! They want to have a version of this discussion that isn't threatening at all to the deeply ingrained anti (trans)masculinity in queer spaces. Literally any criticism, no matter how lukewarm or carefully handled, is labeled "reactionary." After you get rid of everything that people hate about transandrophobia theory you are left with none of the things that make it valuable to transmascs + everyone else who benefits from this discussion.

[cat-in-a-mech-suit]

Transmasculinity Throughout Time: Greek Mythology

This is a relief of Caeneus from Greek Mythology getting beaten into the ground by centaurs with trees. He is one of three trans men in Greek myths that I will be discussing! Not only am I looking at actual historical trans men, but examples of transmasculine figures in myths and stories too. The next one will be FtM crossdressing and transmasculine longings written in Shakespeare - I am still wondering though, what other examples of transmasculinity in fictional myths and stories are out there?

Reiterating, I am not any kind of authority on history and am getting my information from accessible internet resources- if you want a source on something specific, ask - many sources are slightly to very problematic in how they talk about gender and transmasculinity so I prefer to not post them directly but will give them in the comments on request if you want to look into something. For this post, I am just going off of Wikipedia. Anyways, anything I post in Transmasculinity Throughout Time is my own opinions, I will talk casually and formally (I don’t really distinguish formality due to autism), and I will use the pronouns of my best judgement. If you don’t like this series for any reason, cool, don’t interact. If you like it and want to give suggestions, cool. I would like to bring transmasculine histories to light in my own way, and welcome a curious and open minded discussion.

In Greek myths, there are three trans men who are known of: Caeneus, Iphis, and Leucippus. If you read the following about Caeneus, please be aware of the content: specifically, TW for SA. Skip to Iphis and Leucippus after the break if you’d prefer to avoid it.

Caeneus was the child of Elatus and Hippea. He was born a girl, but was transformed into an invulnerable man after being raped by Poseidon. In some accounts, he asked to be transformed to avoid pregnancy. In others, it is simply so he doesn’t suffer the same thing again. This narrative is very interesting to me. Some modern sanism and queerphobia manifests as the idea of transmasculinity, lesbianism, or queerness of any kind as a response to sexual trauma. But Caeneus wasn’t a one dimensional victim turned oppressor. He was the strongest warrior of his day after he was transformed, and became king of the Lapiths. Somehow, he angered the gods, exactly how is unclear - it is suggested that it could have been worshipping or encouraging others to worship a spear instead of the gods. As punishment, they sent centaurs after him.

The most popular story involving Caeneus is actually his battle with the centaurs, not his gender transformation. It was called centauromachy, a battle between Lapiths and centaurs. Because he was invulnerable, none of the centaurs weapons worked on him, and he was difficult to defeat - to kill him, they had to actually bury him in the earth by beating him down with stones and uprooted trees. These centaurs were transphobic too. They said:

“Shall I put up with one like you, O Caeneus?

For you are still a woman in my sight.

Have you forgot your birth or that disgrace

by which you won reward—at what a price

you got the false resemblance to a man?!

Consider both your birth, and what you have

submitted to! Take up a distaff, and

wool basket! Twist your threads with practiced thumb!

Leave warfare to your men!” (Ovid, Metamorphoses).

“Transandrophobia isn’t real” “trans men have no historical presence” Meanwhile greek mythology be like… anyways.. So .. Then.. the centaurs were defeated by him! He was invulnerable. But they could still beat him into the ground with uprooted trees. It is described in Races’ translation of Argonautica, Apollonius of Rhodes: “They rallied against him, but were not strong enough to push him back nor to kill him, so instead, unbroken and unbending, he sank beneath the earth, hammered by the downward force of mighty pine trees.” This makes me think about how transmasculinity is buried in history.. Onto the next myths!

Iphis and Leucippus both have very similar stories. Iphis was born of Ligdus and Telethusa. Ligdus only wanted a son, and said he would only let the child live if it was male. The goddess Isis asked Telethusa to keep the child regardless of how it is born, and promised her aid in the future. Iphis grew up raised as a boy, and was “officially” transformed by Isis before marrying a girl, Ianthe. From Ovid, Metamorphoses:

“Her face seemed of a darker hue, her strength seemed greater, and her features were more stern. Her hair once long, was unadorned and short. There is more vigor in her than she showed in her girl ways. For in the name of truth, Iphis, who was a girl, is now a man!”

Leucippus’ tale is almost the same, he was born of Lamprus and Galatea, Lamprus would only accept a male child, and Galatea concealed Leucippus’ birth sex from her husband, giving him a masculine name and referring to him as her son. Upon puberty, he was changed physically into a man by the goddess Leto. This story actually inspired a male rite of passage in Phaistos dedicated to Leto, and inspired a wedding custom where brides would lie next to an image or statue of Leucippus before weddings. Two customs in an ancient greek city being inspired by a story about a trans man is an important and cool fact methinks.

[decolonize-the-everything]

I think I saw somewhere that the alternative word for transandrophobia/transmisandry is anti-transmasculinity. It’s a term coined by a Black trans person to describe what you’re describing, if that helps at all? I just saw ur post that you wanna re-define or find a better word and I wanted to tell u that it exists! Was very relieving for me to like, discover it esp as a mixed race trans guy

That still aligns me with a gender and I don't want that, that's part of what I want to address actually.

I feel like I aligned myself with the masc term to begin with because women are pretty clear misogyny affects others, but others aren't allowed to center our experiences within it or define our oppression with it which is fine. Transmascs seemed okay with me using their term so I did.

It's just that in looking all this up, like I said I realized I needed a word that didn't align me with masculinity or femininity. I'm not oppressed for being a man or a woman or trans I'm oppressed for being none of it and insisting on it. There literally isn't a word for that experience, not in English.

I'm two spirit and I feel like I'd be just as uncomfortable if I transitioned as I am now tbh, I'm considering it hesitantly because of that. Perhaps the HRT I need just doesn't exist and I'm not smart enough to imagine what it is, idk.

I'm almost a trans man, but I'm not and not for a lack of dysphoria but because I don't think transitioning would help. I don't feel like a man, I'm not drawn to anything about manhood and likewise with womanhood. They're fun to dress up as sometimes, sure, but neither are my gender and neither are my ideal sex. It feels like I am both and also neither because the way they're understood is all wrong. I relate to both but would never identify as either one. I use nonbinary most often for that reason.

Two spirit means a mix/variety of spirits/energy rather than having just one. In this case the very rough English translation would be something like a mix of gendered traits like feminine and masculine (which can happen in Many ways). We were considered queer enough to target when colonizers started their pillaging; they didn't like us or our diversity, if that helps provide an image of how a two spirit could present and act within a community.

The adage goes cis people don't question their gender so I'm not that. And I would transition if I knew what magic (perhaps even impossible) combo would make me happy.

What is it to not be a woman, or (theoretically) trans but still experience systemic gender based oppression? Not just for rejecting femininity or masculinity, but for being something else?

We were grouped in with queer people for being definitely queer compared to the average cishet, but not all of us are trans and have genders easily categorized or understood through colonial language or structures.

But I also know a lot of two spirit people don't like the word queer and are more hesitant to use it because it doesn't encapsulate our experiences.

I want a word that does.

And I feel like "discrimination based on having a gender/sex outside the colonial binary" is a decent definition for the system I want to describe. I don't think that it erases anyone else's experiences either and is even inclusive of them, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

what do y'all think of that?

I'm thinking I'll have to make another word to label being actually affected by it.

[caffeineandsociety]

The more I think about it the more I suspect that a lot of the reason people are resistant to the concept of transandrophobia is that to accept it would make it harder to avoid reckoning with the way we treat men of color, and hell, POC in general.

I know part of it is just...a long-running misunderstanding of intersectionality as "the intersection of various axes of oppression, in which Privileged Identities are irrelevant or even take away from it" rather than "the intersection of all aspects of a person's identity to form a whole that may look very different from someone else who shares a singular trait, or unexpectedly similar to someone who doesn't", and thus reading the concept as "ACKSHUALLY it's WOMEN who oppress MEN and so WE'RE the ones with TWO Oppression Points, not those stupid and shallow and overprivileged trans women!"

But I cannot help but suspect that a lot of people really fucking don't WANT to break away from that misinterpretation because it would mean having to reckon SPECIFICALLY with how that misinterpretation has hurt POC. How it reinforces all the ideas that lead to the brutalization of MOC. How some "anti-racist" people on this site would absolutely have sided against Emmett Till had they lived in that time with the same mindset - that it's not a coincidence that the decline of Black tumblr became so sharp around the George Floyd protests. How they only care about how Black and brown women are masculinized and transvestigated so far as they can hold them up as "collateral damage" evidence of why we should leave white trans people alone.

And honestly, I HOPE that as this exclusionism wave dies down, it doesn't just come with the recognition of the risks that white transmascs face, or white transmascs claiming the increased risks of police brutality as their own struggle first and foremost; I want it to be a fucking leg-up to acknowledging the way gender intersects with MULTIPLE other factors INCLUDING RACE.

I know that "popping the bubble" - grappling with the fact that the way you've misunderstood something has hurt people - is painful. I get it. But you have to fucking do it because the alternative is "keep hurting other people."

[apollosimps]

I’ve noticed a lot of similarities between biphobia, aphobia, and anti-transmasculinity in the queer community.

Outside of our circles, most hardcore bigots don’t really care what flavor of gay you are, so they tend to group everyone together into a giant “degenerate” or “sexual deviant” pile. In high school (particularly freshman year), I was a cringey Shapiro and SJW cringe compilation watcher and let me tell you: they didn’t care which letter in “LGBTQ” you identified with. You were either trying to destroy the human race with your queerness, or you were hopping on a 'trend' (or both!)

Biphobia and aphobia are linked in that most of the identity-specific comments will come from in-group members---lesbians and gays, trans people too. When it comes from members of the queer community, they both rely on the assumption that bi people and aro/ace people can simply assimilate into our cishet, amatonormative society without push back, which simply isn't the case. Under transandrophobia lies the assumption that all trans men will eventually be perceived as cis men and have the privilege that entails, and that they will assimilate easily too. Also very wrong.

Radfems, trans inclusive or no, find the idea of trans men uncomfortable because it breaks apart their idea of men vs. women--the non-oppressed vs. the oppressed. They can't understand that you can hurt others while also being hurt yourself.

There's this inherent sense of entitlement with these groups, that if you can assimilate, if you aren't oppressed, if you aren't clocked on the street, then you cannot be queer and you don't belong here. That's what I think ties biphobia, aphobia, and transandrophobia together in my mind.

A friend of mine said that she found the idea that you have to be oppressed to be queer very depressing. I completely agree. Bi people, aspecs, and transmascs absolutely experience oppression and pushback, especially specific to their identity---but, that doesn't define us!

Queerness can be horror. It can be debilitating. It can be heartbreaking. But it can also be joyful and powerful. We shouldn't gatekeep the community based on whether or not our experiences reflect oppression or not.