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s10127470 · 4 months

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A response to myst1calx

So a few weeks ago, a made a post titled The MCU Synergy Problem.

In that post, I discussed how a lot of Marvel's projects during the 2010s and 2020s have been somewhat dragged down by being constantly forced to be adjacent to the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

If you want to check it out for yourself, here's the link to it below.

As of right now, the post has gotten six likes and a reblog.

However, the reblog I got was essentially a written response.

And somewhat hostile one.

And weirdly enough, it was from one of the six people who liked the post.

So I'm not sure on whether or not they actually liked it or they hated it.

From the way the reblog was written, it seemed like they didn't really like it.

And in addition to that, they're also a sense of confusion as well.

So today, I decided to make a response to the person that did the reblog: myst1calx.

I'm going to respond to all the points they brought up in their reblog while trying to be as civil as possible.

Though there may be a point in this where I do seem pretty angry.

Now that we got that out of the way, let's get started.

"ok but the shows in the 2010s didnt suffer from mcu synergy because they activley fought against it"

This one is a both right and wrong.

Ultimate Spider-Man and Spider-Man (2017) are really the only shows that didn't suffer from MCU synergy.

Spidey hadn't been introduced into the MCU yet when Ultimate came out and when he was, it was during Ultimate's final season.

When Spidey wouldn't even get his own movie in the MCU until after Ultimate ended.

And Spider-Man '17 surprisingly didn't really have a whole lot of MCU influence despite lasting for most of Spidey's MCU trilogy.

It took more influence from Brian Michael Bendis' Ultimate Spider-Man and Dan Slott's run on Amazing Spider-Man.

Avengers Assemble, despite being created just to ride off the success of the first Avengers film, didn't really have a whole lot of MCU synergy at.....for the first two seasons.

But I'll touch on that a little later.

Guardians of the Galaxy.

Dude, out of all the Marvel shows of the 2010s, this one was undoubtedly the most blatant with the MCU synergy.

I mean, just look this promotional poster.

Hulk and the Agents of S.M.A.S.H. also has blatant case of MCU synergy, but in a more subtle and honestly, sinister way.

The show was about the titular Agents of S.M.A.S.H. learning how to be a family and fighting off bad guys with a variety of high-tech gadgets.

Not exactly something you would think of from a show about the Hulk of all characters.

But let's turn our attention to the villains of this show.

Out of all the villains, this show only really features 7 of the Hulk's foes.

The Leader, The Abomination, The Absorbing Man, Titania, Wendigo, Xemnu and Maestro.

Yeah! No Wrecking Crew, U-Foes, Zzzax, Madman, Bi-Beast, Gargoyle, Flux, Grey Gargoyle, Umar, Nightmare, Man-Beast, Ravage, or John Ryker.

Now compare this to the other villains included in the show.

Besides the Hulk associated villains, the other villains in show include the likes of Annihilus, Blastaar, Ego the Living Planet, Laufey, The Mole Man, Doctor Doom, Galactus and his heralds, Impossible Man, Loki, Malekith the Accursed, Dormammu, Sauron, Ronan the Accuser, The High Evolutionary, The Red Ghost and his Super-Apes, Pluto, and The Supreme Intelligence.

Upon reading this, you probably that most the villains listed here are predominately connected to the Fantastic Four, not really Hulk himself.

This, along with the aforementioned focus on family and use of technology, has led many people to theorize that Hulk and the Agents of S.M.A.S.H. was originally meant to be a new Fantastic Four cartoon, but was changed to be a Hulk cartoon at some point development.

The potential reason for this was that this show did come out right at the beginning of Marvel's "The Fantastic Four and X-Men don't matter anymore" phase because of the whole movie rights bullshit.

And while there hasn't been any official confirmation about this theory from any who has worked on the show, the connections are still quite apparent.

As for why they decided to make Hulk the star of the show instead if they couldn't use the Fantastic Four, I guess besides the fact he's among the most prominent allies of the Four, it was because he was the only other option that people could see working with this premise.

The other ones that could possibly fit this would be The Avengers and maybe Spider-Man, but they already had their own shows going on around that time.

So all in all, the MCU synergy did affect most of the 2010s shows.

Some were definitely more apparent than others, but still.

"if you wanna make the claim that its all mcu synergy, you can see it starting in 2017, not 13"

Now this one is weird because a good chunk of the MCU synergized elements that occured in the comics happened before 2017.

-The current, obviously MCU-inspired Loki was introduced in 2011

-Hawkeye with the tired dad energy was introduced in 2012

-The Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver happened in 2015

-Literally everything with the Guardians of the Galaxy in 2015

I think maybe they were trying to say that the MCU synergy became more apparent starting in 2017, which.....yeah, they are kinda right about that.

But I reason I say this is a weird statement is because what myst1calx says later in their reblog.

Which I'll get to.

"also advertising doesnt always mean mcu syndication slop dude"

Dude, I never said anything about the advertisement for the MCU being the same as MCU synergy slock.

Advertising for the MCU is perfectly fine. I mean, Marvel would want their project to do well, right?

But the problem is using a piece of Marvel media that isn't connected to the MCU and having it resemble the MCU.

It just doesn't allow it the product to stand on it's own.

"like dont bring avengers assemble and aos and usm into this"

Why shouldn't?

Avengers Assemble does play a part in the MCU synergy problem.

I didn't even mention Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. at all in my post.

And for Ultimate Spider-Man.....

I only brought up the comic for a point I was making about a weird similarity I noticed between most modern non-MCU projects and most recent Spider-Man media.

And if we're talking about the cartoon, I literally just said it didn't suffer from any MCU synergy at all.

"this is entierly a thing that started with the 2017 uni and it comics. just correcting because i'm tire dof the whole “ mcu syndication rhetoric” when talking about aa it's so fucking annoying"

The MCU synergy has been around before 2017, they think were just saying that it became before prominent and explicit than before.

But the whole "MCU syndication rhetoric" when about AA.....

While yes, Avengers Assemble may not have the most blatant case of MCU synergy out of the non-MCU TV shows of the 2010s (Guardians of the Galaxy say "hi" again.), it's hard not to mention it as it does play a big part in that show.

From the content within the show, to literally why the show was made in the first place.

"look at the comics or anything from like. idk 2017 onwards."

This one I do agree (sort of).

I don't what the comics have to do with AA (they're completely different continuities), but I do know that the MCU synergy has gotten worse with the comics since 2017.

I mean for God's sake, the latest case of this was just last year with Ms. Marvel being retconned into a mutant.

"like you COULD make a claim abt this but honestly i see it more as you guys just not liking new shit"

But I like some of the new Marvel shit.....

the Insomniac Spider-Man games, the Spider-Verse films, Midnight Suns, those Marvel animes, and that upcoming Marvel Rivals game.

Hell, I actually like Avengers Assemble as well.

I know I didn't mention it in my post, I actually do like this show a lot.

I know it's not as good as the show that came before it, The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, but I still acknowledge it merits and enjoy it as its own thing.

But most of the other non-MCU projects I'm just not that wild about.

Since let's be real, they're kinda just.....

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"like being fr, have you ever watched or played any of these games or do you see that at face value"

Yes, I have watched and played both Avengers and Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite.

And both of these are just not that good.

While they're definitely not the worst games ever, they're just nothing really home to write home about.

For Avengers, this game was pure wasted potential.

I mean, Square Enix and Crystal Dynamics had access to an IP that at the time of acquiring it, had over 50 years worth of history!

That IP had hundreds of comics with numerous storylines worth adapting, an enormous roster of characters, a multitude of other iterations to easily take some influence from, and most of all, a movie franchise that helped make it into the powerhouse it is today.

But with all that, they found some way to screw it up!

The plot is nothing home to rave about. It's just you're standard "getting the band back together" plot.

The graphics are....passable. Just your standard very realistic-looking game.

The gameplay is repetitive as all hell and fails at making any of the characters feel distinct from one another.

The bonus content is a total joke. I mean putting aside the obvious micro-transactions, most of the purchasable costumes absolutely suck. They're either just half-assed attempts at recreating outfits from whatever source material they came from, or just recolors of each other.

And most of all, the game has some of the most pitiful representation of the Marvel Universe ever put to screen.

I mean, can you name any notable locations from the comics that was featured in the game?

The only one was Wakanda, but even that could've been done a little better.

There was no Asgard or any of the other Nine Realms, no Latveria, no Kamar-Taj, no Dark Dimension, no Atlantis, no Savage Land.

Hell, we don't even get to go to New York! Despite the fact that like 90% of the Marvel characters are based there.

All we got were primarily generic-looking bases, deserts and forests (occasionally with some snow).

And in my post, I mentioned that there was a list of playable characters planned to be in the game.

In addition to Spider-Man and Hawkeye, this list included the likes of Ant-Man, Black Panther, Captain Marvel, Captain Mar-Vell, Daisy Johnson, Doctor Strange, The Falcon, Kate Bishop, Mockingbird, Scarlet Witch, She-Hulk, The Vision, The Wasp, War Machine, and the Winter Soldier.

But only five characters from that list made it into that game, plus the Jane Foster Thor, which let's be real, that was only done just to coincidence with the release of Thor: Love and Thunder.

You can't tell me that the roster we got by the time the game finished updating was better than the one that was initially planned.

And I reason I say this game was pure wasted potential was because.....look at who the Avengers have had as members over the decades!

People don't seem to know this a lot or ever really acknowledge it, but the Avengers are like a melting pot, as they've had members from basically every corner of the Marvel Universe!

Heroes from the mystical side like the aforementioned Doctor Strange, Hercules, Black Knight and White Tiger.

Heroes from the cosmic side like the aforementioned Captain Marvels, Monica Rambeau, Moondragon and Nova.

Several street-level heroes like the aforementioned Spider-Man, Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Jessica Jones and Shang-Chi.

A couple of mutants have been members like Quicksilver and The Scarlet Witch and even members of the X-Men, namely Wolverine, Beast and Storm.

Hell. Literally every member of the Fantastic Four has been a member of the Avengers at one point!

Like, does anyone else see the potential I'm bringing up?!

There could've easily been several DLCs that got to explore much greater Marvel Universe.

But alas, we never got that....

As for Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite....

Jesus....

Apart from the admittedly decent gameplay, there's just nothing else good about this game.

The graphics totally suck. They threw away the gorgeous cel-shaded, comic book-inspired look from 3: Fate of Two Worlds for this bland, kinda ugly pseudo-realistic look for the sake of just like damn-near everything else in that game: MCU synergy.

Not to mention they look pretty cheap, especially in the cutscenes.

The reason being that this game had a pretty low budget.....and it really shows.

The music was mid, since, once again, they changed many of the characters themes in order to make it more MCU-inspired.

And while I do respect that this game is the first one in the series to have a story-mode, it's unfortunate that the story-mode sucks.

The plot was just so lame and was obviously riding the hype for the then-upcoming Avengers: Infinity War.

And I already brought up the absolute disgrace of a roster and the behind-the-scenes drama of this game in my poster.

All in all, these games may not be the worst games of all time, but they're just not worth anyone's time or money.

If you like these games, more power to ya.

"because i see more misconceptions about characters in deisgn and charaterizations in the 2010s morethan anything"

I'm not sure about this one.

Most of the stuff I said about the designs and characterizations in the comics is largely truly.

But maybe one of them was possibly exaggerated and not nearly as prevalent as most people make it out to be.

"and the thing is is that marvel will just keep doing this bullshit because you guys keep buying into it"

I just pointed it out that most of the stuff on the designs and characterizations is largely true.

It almost feels like they're trying to downplay just how prevalent the MCU synergy is in the comics.

Which is weird since they just admitted early with how prevalent the MCU synergy is in the comics!

And also.....

Fuck off with that bullshit.

Don't blame this on the fans.

They're (mostly) not the ones clamoring for this MCU synergy!

Marvel is doing this on their own term and are obviously doing this to appeal to more contemporary fans who got introduced to Marvel through the MCU.

And as I mentioned in my post, I'm convinced that the people at Marvel believe these guys have never heard of the word: adaptation.

Not only that, but they also seem to believe that these fans will get confused that the comics don't line-up with the movies 1-to-1.

And trust me, this isn't the first time something like this has happened with Marvel.

"this doesnt work for most of the shows pre 2016 in the 2010s marvel area because they didnt suffer from it until marvel started forcing it on them for maximum profits #which then ended up biting them in the ass when avengers assemble fans dropped the show after relazing that s5 became shitty mcu syndication"

Now this part is true.

The MCU synergy started to become much more prominent roughly around 2016/2017.

I already went into how this negatively affected stuff like Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite, but let's head back to the main focus of this part, Avengers Assemble.

Although AA was created to obviously ride the wave of success caused by the first Avengers film, it surprisingly had very little MCU synergy....for, as I mentioned earlier, the first two seasons.

The only examples I can think of from the first two seasons was when they recreated the Chitauri in the Impossible Man, and a few references that got turned on their head like when Hulk tries to punch Thor, but he blocks it with Mjolnir.

But when season 3 came around....that's when everything changed.

During that season, it was pretty apparent they were really striving to be more like the MCU than in prior seasons.

The season featured Ultron as the main antagonist be he was in the latest Avengers movie at time, Age of Ultron.

Despite the fact that when the season premiered, Age of Ultron for almost a year at that point....

The Avengers got new outfits, pulled directly from the movies.

Hulk and Black Widow had something going on between them....like in the movies.

Klaw, who first appeared in Ultimate Spider-Man (which is connected to AA), receives a major redesign, looking like how he did in the movies, whereas before, he looked like how did in the comics.

The last four episodes were based off Civil War (I wonder why?).

They move their headquarters to a compound....once again, like in the movies.

And they predominately featured the Inhumans as recurring characters, since this was back when Marvel were trying to push them as the next big characters in order to replace the X-Men and promote their then-upcoming movie.

Which ended up getting cancelled and got replaced by a shitty TV show....which was cancelled after just one season.

In Season 4, this synergy was thankfully less present.

There was aforementioned Falcon redesign.

And Doctor Strange got one as well, to look more like how he did in the movies.

But then came along Season 5....

Dear God....

Not only was the MCU synergy just as prevalent as it was in Season 3 (maybe even more so, especially with the fact that it was heavily focused on Black Panther), but it even took place in a completely different continuity.

Yep! Season 5 was completely removed from the previous 4 seasons!

And to make matters worse, it was set in the same universe as Spider-Man 2017.....and Guardians of the Galaxy!

Which itself was connected to the first 4 seasons of AA.

HOW DOES THAT EVEN WORK?!

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"this didnt START from the 2010s. it started midway throu"

Once again, the MCU synergy has been around since the early 2010s.

It was only at the midway point of that decade where started to become more prevalent than before.

And outside of the comics, the earliest case I think of for this was with EMH, which had Iron Man acting exactly like how he did in the movies.

Hell, even Hulk looked pretty similar to how he did in his solo film everybody forgot about.

"and creeped its way in because you guys LET IT HAPPEN"

Once again, fuck off with that bullshit.

"half of the things mentioned arent even mcu syndicationy they just suffer from current realisitc game trends that we are the norm"

I can definitely tell they're talking about Square Enix's Avengers.

But in all honesty, but game didn't really have a whole lot of MCU synergy.

It was still there, specifically with how the characters look.

I mean, everyone has said it before, but the Avengers looked like the stunt doubles for the MCU actors.

But it wasn't as prevalent as some of the other Marvel media to feature it.

Doesn't really make it much better though.

The game is honestly sort of a Schrodinger's video game, where doesn't take much from the comics or any other iterations of the Avengers, but doesn't take much from the MCU either.

"like what is your point here? “oh not every marvel property is the same is the comics” dude nobody buys comic shit because they arent as easy to get into the manga you guys perpetuate this shit and then wonder why cb fandoms are always filled with normies"

And here we are....

Now this is the last part of the reblog, and the one that really annoys me the most.

My point of that post was to show how not only was the constant MCU synergy incredibly tiring, but also been doing a lot of harm to their recent projects that aren't connected to the MCU.

Like, Avengers Assemble could've gone down as one of the greatest Marvel cartoons ever made!

But it got bogged down by the MCU synergy of the later seasons.

So much so that the final season wasn't even connected to the previous ones!

And now, it's usually just seen as the "we have the MCU at home" show.

And I do I even need to bring up Infinite into this?

And not only that, but it's also been bringing out the worst in Marvel.

I mean, just look at my post and read up on how much they made Capcom suffer during the production of Infinite.

But the synergy has not only harmed potentially good projects and lead to promising upcoming projects to be thrown to the Shadow Realm, but even good projects in unintentional ways.

The Guardians of the Galaxy video game was really good and the people who played it all agreed that this was what Avengers should've been!

But despite the positive reception, the game ended up flopping hard.

And while this was largely thanks to the failure of Avengers (since Guardians was also produced by Square Enix), I feel like the growing annoying towards MCU synergy may've played a part in this as well.

Since remember: out of all the characters of Marvel, the Guardians have been the ones undoubtedly changed by the MCU the most.

It's like....not even a contest.

And not only is this synergy doing harm to their non-MCU projects, but also gonna start (and it's possibly already has been) doing harm to the Marvel brand itself.

This is largely because of how homogenized they've made everything, which is not gonna be helping them because of rapidly declining interest in the MCU (aka Marvel Fatigue).

I mean, last year was just not a good year for them.

Besides Guardians of the Galaxy 3, two other films that released that year (Ant-Man and The Wasp: Quantumania and The Marvels).

Both those films were met critically with what could be described as a resounding "meh".

But the real damage came in their box office.

Quantumania was a box-office disappointment, grossing $476.1 million worldwide against a gross production budget of $326.6 million, being one of the few MCU films not to break even in its theatrical run.

And The Marvels.....

Oh man, The Marvels....

That film was a box-office bomb! Grossing $206 million worldwide against a gross production budget of $274.8 million. And it now holds the record for being the lowest-grossing film in the franchise's history!

That had to be hurting Marve!

And it seems so as just recently, Marvel Studios announced they would be limiting the amount of MCU projects they release a year.

And while Marvel largely targeted towards the MCU itself, I feel like could also potentially start harming non-MCU projects.

Since let's be real, one of the many issues people have had with the recent MCU is how formulaic and generic it's become.

From the trademark forced and frankly mediocre humor, to having damn-near every threat be potentially world-ending.

I'm pretty sure the same could be applied to what people usually expect from a modern non-MCU project.

It's gonna have a semi-realistic art-style.

It's gonna feature the big characters (Avengers, Guardians and Spider-Man) featured in the MCU and barely anyone else (Fantastic Four, X-Men, street-level heroes).

They're all gonna be wearing their MCU outfits.

Every character is gonna be a quippy asshole (expect the ones who are suppose to be quippy assholes like Hawkeye and Spider-Man).

And it's gonna have a world-ending threat, with either Loki or Thanos as the main villain.

(Maybe Ultron if you're lucky)

And if this keep going, I'm sure Kang the Conquerer will essentially become the next villain to always be the main villain.

Well, if he's still going to be used in the MCU....

On to the next point.

“oh not every marvel property is the same is the comics”

Okay.

This has been a topic of debate when it comes to comic book adaptations for years.

Whether or not all comic book adaptations should strive to be like, 100% faithful to the source material.

To me, I think the answer to this is, in the words of the Pirate Captain,....

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If this is for a series like Watchmen, 300 and Invincible, I feel like you should definitely make the adaptation as faithful as possible.

But even then, there would be definitely be some changes to the source material, since they would have story elements that were either weak or just plain bad.

Basically, maybe people's ideas on adaptations is to utilize what works, and either strengthen or get rid of what doesn't.

But when doing an adaptation for the big dogs like DC and Marvel.....this is where things get really tricky.

Because DC and Marvel have ongoing continuities with no end in sight, doing a largely faithful adaptation of any of their characters' stories would be an absolute nightmare since that characters will often have literal DECADES of history, plus hundreds to thousands of comics to read in order to understand said history.

If you've noticed, a lot of adaptations of DC and Marvel aren't exactly 1-to-1 adaptations of the stories from the comics.

But the reason why they're held in such high regard is because in spite of that, they manage to stay faithful to the spirit, tone and characterizations of the comics.

And even then, they will still adapt storylines and elements from the comics, but just little more streamlined.

Essentially, the best way I can describe how adaptations of DC and Marvel work is that they use the comics as a basis (along with other iterations) and essentially strive for something that's familiar while still being different.

For example, let's look at some of the Batman cartoons.

Although having some similarities, the three shows I'm about to bring up are still largely different from each other.

Batman: The Animated Series focused on the adventures of an already experienced Batman (having been at this gig for years and already knowing his villains) and his relationships with those around him.

The Batman, while somewhat similar to its predecessor, is focused on a younger and slightly-less experienced Batman learning to become a better hero.

And Batman: The Brave and Bold, is completely different from the prior two shows as it's focused on Batman's adventures interacting with the much greater DC Universe, specifically the lesser-known side.

But despite that, from watching these shows, you can still tell that they all used the comics (along with other iterations) as a basis and just built upon that in unique ways.

Contrast that with many of the non-MCU projects/products of the 2010s, which were obviously using the movies as a basis....and nothing really else.

And not only is this limiting to what these projects could do, but it's also kind of disingenuous.

Remember, the Marvel characters existed DECADES before the MCU even came around.

But to see Marvel not really even bothering to utilize said source material (in addition to constantly trying to alter it for the sake of brand synergy) is kind of a dick move.

And as I stated before, they're obviously doing to this to appeal to a certain demographic.

All companies have done this before.

And that certain demographic are the people who got into Marvel via the MCU.

And that leads us to the tail end of this part.

I get it.

It's REALLY hard to get into comics, specifically of the big two: DC and Marvel, especially the latter.

This is largely because of how long their characters have been around.

And if that wasn't intimidating enough, these characters will often have multiple runs (sometimes running at once) and that can last to hundreds, even thousands of issues!

Though not all comics books are like that.

Namely the limited series ones.

Hell, even franchises that have had multiple comic runs like Transformers, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and Sonic the Hedgehog surprisingly don't have this issue.

In spite of having multiple comics runs, the reason they don't suffer is because each one (no matter how long they've ran for) usually takes place in a completely different continuity from the other.

And also, using the term "normies" is so lame and kind of insulting.

I mean, I thought that term died back in like 2016.

A better term for these people would be "contemporary fans".

But anyway, contemporary fans shouldn't be blamed for people not buying comics much anymore.

If anything, the blame should be more placed towards the companies themselves for not really having anything that could help ease them into the world of these characters and, as I mentioned before, constantly changing the continuity of the comics in order to make it easier for those fans to get into (which ironically I think actually makes it harder).

Like, remember back in the 2000s and the early 2010s, when Marvel used to have to storybooks, novels and encyclopedias that went into detail on the backgrounds of the Marvel characters.

I'm pretty sure that helped a lot of contemporary fans of that era get a good understanding of the Marvel characters.

And I'm sure it can work for the contemporary fans of today as well.

Well that's all I have to say.

This isn't meant be a call-out post, I just wanted to response to the points myst1calx brought up in their reblog.

And while writing for this, I kinda feel like I should've gone more in-depth on some of my points in the original post.

And even then, I do feel like they are confused on some points I made in the post.

But anyway, myst1calx, if you are reading this, I do hope we can reach a better understanding on this whole topic.

And if I sounded somewhat angry at some points, I do apologize for that.

But other than that, I'm gonna go eat something to eat.

Peace.

#response #rant post #personal rant #marvel cinematic universe #mcu synergy #marvel #marvel comics #avengers assemble #but seriously though #i am genuinely excited for marvel rivals!

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