#alastor discourse

[skys-archive]

Fandom Can't Handle Asexuality

I was watching this video and GOD this is so important. I haven't felt like making a post about everything that goes into shipping ace and around characters but this is really good to what I think. This is about Alastor from Hazbin Hotel but it's a really good watch even if you haven't watched it

Especially there's this one part, about loopholes. I fully love the idea of queer platonic relationships between fictional characters, but a lot of the fandom seems to be using it as a loophole to be romantic under the veil of qprs. A queer platonic relationship is NOT romantic. Depending on the people there might be affection of some kind but the whole point is that there's no romantic feeling.

I don't know, I don't have the energy to fully get into the aroace shipping discourse but please for the love of everything, us aroaces don't have a lot of representation, and when we do all everyone wants to do is try and use our words against us. Aces can be sexual, aros can be romantic. And yes that's true but not when these characters so clearly are NOT. Alastor is so clearly not interested in touch and and sex and romance, Isaac from Heartstopper is so clearly pained from the fact that he just doesn't want sex or romance AT ALL. I can't speak for other representation as I haven't watched it. Please stop doing this.

You don't want your gay characters in straight relationships, you don't want to take away representation it's what we've been saying forever so why are you taking it away from us?

I guess I got into it more than I meant to but really I could go on forever.

[berrycake99]

On Alastor's sexuality:

Ok so a thread I NEVER thought I'd have to make, but shit's getting out of hand and I am a little bit annoyed now.

For the longest time, I've defended Alastor ships because I really don't have a problem with random fanart/fics, regular fandom stuff...

But it's getting ridiculous, the latest post I've seen is headcanoning Alastor to be "bi-romantic", ofc getting rly defenssive if someone just says ANYTHING else.

The 'hypersexualization' of his character doesn't lay in him being portrayed in very sexy fanart or fics. It's the fact everyone's using Alastor for claiming their sexuality to be more valid, straight up jumping over his entire character. He is a beautifully written complex morally gray character and ppl only seek to see "wELL wHaT hIS seXuAL pREfErEncE iS", is it really that important???

Even if he's not confirmed aro, he is still asexual and just slamming any other title before ace to make him into your sexuality and then gripping onto it so effin hard is childish.

And you can't even make the argument of his sexuality actually being somewhat important to his character (like how for exemple, Vox being bisexual and having internilized homophobia is important to his actions and relations to others in the show, or how Angel being hypersexual is important part of his story with sex-work industry - I know hypersexuality is not a sexuality, but here too the "sexual" identity/part of a character is valid to include in understanding their psychology, do you see where I'm going?)

In regards to Alastor, nothing of sexual nature is really important to his role in the story. I don't mind anyone having fun and making any type of story they like, I do not think that is 'erasing the rep' because the ace-spectrum in itself is a spectrum and is very different for anyone, and everyone is valid.

What is erasing the rep is just making "headcanons" of his sexuality based on your own to make you feel better that you portray as factual. The reason I always say I don't mind is bcs I say the 'fun' doesn't change the show's flow. But some ppl actually do want that to happen, which is not okay.

You can't make an artist change their oc to fit your own standards. At that point, you're self-inserting.

Ppl are being as disrespectful to even harrass the VA into making a statement to explain to y'all that it ain't happening nothing will be canon and chill tf out. And then they still make the "ok no sex scene but there will be romance we have 2 more seasons to go!"

Did everyone forget Vivzie confirming Alastor will be single throughout the series after pilot or???

Not everything needs to have romance and sex in it..I understand these are important factors for ppl in general which is why I encourage everyone to make their own story, that way you have full freedom of expression to say it the way you want it to be. But expecting the show itself to change into your secific place on the ace-spectrum is just very distastefull.

Not to mention this is done only for the characters with no precisely defined sexualities, but mostly Alastor. Imagine someone going "you can't tell me Angel isn't bisexual. Look at the way he looks at Vaggie in this screenshot!" everyone would loose their shit. But for Lucifer, who is still unclearly straight/pan/bi or Alastor who is ace, ppl go "OMG AN EMPTY SPACE! OPPORTUNITY TO SELF-INSERT!" Stop. Again, how is this important to the story..

No shade to any RadioApple, RadioDust, StaticRadio, whateverRadio shippers. I myself find some of the fanart cute and I understand. But please don't try to force the idea of a non-canon dynamic you like onto every ace person irl and the show itself. That is very stupid. Make a fanfic, enjoy the show. Alastor will probably have an amazing lore in the future. He is more than his sexuality.

[certifiablyinsanez]

Mammon is great ace representation: an essay on aphobia in the Hellaverse fandom

I’m seeing a lot of people be mad about Mammon having a thing for Leviathan. And I’m going to need the fandom to step back and examine these issues, because they are 100% rooted in aphobia. I have been out as an oriented aroace person for over 10 years if you want to doubt my credentials, rather than listen to my analysis, lived experience and reflect.

So. Tell me Hellaverse fandom; why, when it comes to Alastor, who is a character who very clearly has zero interest in others, it is always a chorus of people saying “aces can have sex”, “aces can enjoy sex”, “it’s not harmful to the ace community to use Alastor for shipping material, he isn’t real and asexuality and aromanticism is a huge spectrum”, “Aroace people can still date and have sex”?

But when it comes to Mammon, he is “bad asexual representation”, he “clearly experiences sexual attraction”, “he can’t be demisexual”, etc.

No genuinely, why is this? I want you to examine this, think on it from a place of neutral examination and come to your own conclusions. Because this is a worrisome double standard. This can for starters, be an instance of fat phobia. Because out of the two of them, Alastor is thin, and therefore closer to the beauty standard, which is hysterical considering that Alastor canonically has horrible hygiene, and I don’t think I know a single person who thinks that stank ass body and breath is attractive. Mammon, as seen from the slovenly way he eats, can potentially be assumed to have poor hygiene as well, but it has a very different connotation because of his weight. [Research the connection between thin privilege and body odor/hygiene. It’s very real].

I can spend a lot of time and energy going into the shipping dynamics between the shows, as well as how Alastor is a more “shippable” character in comparison to Mammon, but I honestly don’t find this as interesting or as compelling as to what I’m about to say next.

Because aphobia in the real world is still very alive and well today. In my 10+ years of being in the ace community, I have genuinely spent a lot of emotional energy, time, knowledge, experience, and compassion, just fighting for the right to even be acknowledged as queer. I have vivid memories from when I was first out of the closet at the age of 16, telling ace people across apps and forums that they were valid, that they weren’t broken, that they were deserving of love, respect, and a place in the queer community. I was telling people, younger, my age, and older that they shouldn’t kill themselves, that they had worth beyond what they could do in the bedroom for others. I had to convince people that they didn’t owe anyone sex, and that they were in fact being sexually abused by their partners. I was on the phone with people in tears. I spent HOURS of my life in these DMs at an age where I was a suffering, mentally ill queer child that was also being victimized by aphobia. Still to this day people think the “A” stands for ally. And still to this day people have discord about our community as a whole. I have had to sit and watch as people went from loudly proclaiming with their whole chest that asexual people didn’t exist, or at the very least weren’t queer. Then years went by and it became less and less okay to say things like that, because asexual people finally had fought long enough and had supported each other enough that we discovered our voices and began to use them. So people were finally facing the consequences of saying bigoted shit.

And now that they can’t say that asexuals aren’t queer, they moved on to another group. Demisexuals. Demisexuals by far have it roughest, because while there are many micro labels in our community to explain our diverse range of experiences, demisexual is probably the most well known one. And every handful of months or so I have to use my voice once again to stand up for my people, because an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us, and people on the internet have made it clear that they have no qualms of attacking us. The asexual and aromantic community have made extremely valuable contributions to the queer community that are entirely overlooked because we are not valued in it.

And this is why I have been an outspoken proponent of my displeasure over Alastor being a character that is the most shipped with others, and my disdain for the fanbase has grown even wider after Mammons appearance in Mastermind. It is a painful reminder of all the discrimination I’ve faced over the years, that my community still goes through. Because people are contrarians. Alastor is canonically asexual, and other aspects of his character are reflective of aromanticism as well. Well, the fanbase doesn’t like this so much. If you genuinely pay attention, you’ll notice this is a trend with a lot of other aroace characters. My favorite example is Peridot from Steven Universe, a canonical aroace character. In the show, Peridot goes through a lot of unlearning and growth. The scene where she tries to fuse with Garnet has massive implications for a few reasons. Because one, she is genuine in her desire to understand Garnet, and fusion better. And two, fusion while forbidden on Homeworld, is commonplace and normal in the Crystal Gems. As a Crystal Gem, she feels this is what is now expected of her. This is a major experience in the aspec community, as living in a cis heteronormative society means that sex, marriage and children are all things expected of each individual, which is dangerous and harmful ideology to everyone, asexual/aromantic people as well. Peridot couldn’t go through with the fusion, but that didn’t stop the fandom salivating, and foaming at the mouth over a potential Lapis/Peridot fusion. People were genuinely mad at Rebecca Sugar for never making that pairing canon, when they had absolutely no right to behave the way they did. Let’s not forget how the fans also misgendered Rebecca Sugar constantly. It was absolutely bigoted.

This is happening with Alastor. Fans feel entitled to ship him with whomever, an entitlement that is not seen with other characters. When people ship Vaggie with Angel, there is backlash, and for good reason. Because people understand that despite the fact that Vivienne Medrano said people can ship whatever, shipping a gay man with a woman and a gay woman with a man is…gross. It is wrong, it is disrespectful of their identities, and is forcing heteronormativity onto characters that are strict in their sexualities. Most people are able to recognize the thinly veiled homophobia. But Alastor does not receive the same treatment, and in fact receives the opposite treatment. I don’t know what I could say to convince you that the aroace coded character in a show being the #1 most shipped is thinly veiled aphobia the same way Vaggie x Angel is thinly veiled homophobia.

Now what does that have to do with Mammon? Mammon seems to not be aroace coded like Alastor, and for some reason, that has thoroughly pissed people off. Because Mammon is not the “acceptable” caricature of an asexual person. Most allosexual (non-asexual and/or aromantic people) view being asexual as being synonymous with being aromantic, which shows a painful lack of understanding and at times respect for the diversity of our community. Alastor fits this category, so he’s an “acceptable asexual”, while also essentially being a toy for shippers. But Mammon, with his clear attraction to Leviathan, is a “bastardization” of the asexual image. When we aren’t being viewed as broken, we’re often being viewed as chaste, virginal, and innocent with attachments to infantilization. But Mammon, with his aggressive and even icky approach to flirting with Leviathan, is seen as a subversion of this, which for people who don’t understand our community, hate. And these people are blaming Vivienne for having “terrible ace rep” when in actuality, having multiple ace characters having very little in common is actually fantastic rep. Because there are many labels in our community that Mammon can fit into as an asexual. To me, he looks like a sex-positive, high libido, demisexual. He’s known Leviathan for thousands of years, of course it makes sense that he would be into her, but not into anyone else which would explain why his “posse” are just female robots. This could also be because of his classism, but I genuinely think that he’s just demisexual. And you already know how people feel about demisexuals.

If you’ve read this far and have genuinely set aside your biases and personal feelings like I requested in the beginning, I appreciate that. Because from my own lived experience, the double standard between Alastor and Mammon doesn’t annoy me; it frightens me.

Because what the fandom is actually saying when they do these things is this:

“We see you as a homogenous group. Your voices go in one ear and out the other. If you don’t conform to our values and standards, we won’t give you the respect or recognition you deserve. If you don’t conform to my view of your group, you lose my “allyship”. We do not see your identity as a sexuality in its own right, but rather a literary device we can play with. I do not care to learn more about your community, your culture, or your struggles. I barely (if at all) acknowledge you as your own sexual minority and marginalized group. I barely acknowledge (if at all) that you are queer at all. I do not care about your feelings about societal biases that I might carry, I don’t care about how you’ve lived it, because it takes away my fun and fantasies. Because I devalue your group as a whole, your voices mean little. Your narrative is mine to do with as I please.”

I really hope you can see my perspective and understand the sincere place this comes from. Thanks for reading.

[cannibalistic-deer]

It baffles me that I've seen people say "Alastor is canonically sex and touch repulsed" as a reason people "shouldn't" be shipping Alastor sexually/romantically.

Why assume that the sex repulsion applies to every relationship in his life, permanently? Some aces are sex favorable, or may develop more favorable feelings for specific people, even if otherwise repulsed.

And the same applies to touch repulsion. That's such a weak argument. Alastor canonically, and very clearly, is okay with or possibly even enjoys touch in specific situations. He does seem to be touch repulsed in general, but again, there are specific people it doesn't apply to. (Rosie is the best example, since with anyone else it is more brief, but Rosie touches him, and is the one initiating that, frequently.)

All types of attraction, or comfort levels with different manners of affection, are fluid. This isn't ever an excuse to invalidate real people who are telling you their identities, but it does mean that assumptions really can't be made about what a person would or wouldn't do.

And this type of thinking is what really leads to invalidating real people, because even if you think "being asexual means never having sexual attraction," and then an ace person shares that they think they might have experienced sexual attraction at some point but still identify as ace... then you have to be open to that. You cannot put sexualities in boxes. This applies to all sexualities.

I'm a fictive of Alastor myself, and I am sex repulsed, so I understand the discomfort, but I also understand that people are not harming any real, living person by making fanworks where Alastor is having sex. It also doesn't mean they're inherently rejecting his asexuality.

If people want to ignore Alastor being aroace completely, that's different. Alastor is canonically aroace (or asexual at minimum), and he always will be. But jumping to conclusions about what people think because you're too naive and stubborn to understand that sexuality and attraction doesn't fit into tidy little boxes is harmful and is a way of thinking that must be changed.

This became longer than intended because I was mostly thinking about the "Alastor is touch repulsed to everyone!" claims some people make, which are frankly incompatible with canon. But the rest of this post is also true.

[oceanamethyst]

You know, here’s my problem with shipping Alastor.

Yes, I know aromantic people can date.

Yes, I know asexuals can have sex.

But you don’t have to be a detective to know that he’s not the type for either.

[fanby-fckry]

I feel like some people need to see this, tbh

[correlance]

On Episode 5 of "Hazbin Hotel", the fandom, and the treatment of Charlastor shippers

I'm getting really tired of all of the "Haha, I always hated Charlastor, we won, and you lost, fuck you!" people on Tumblr being rude, mean, or even downright mocking and cruel to the people who like Charlastor. No, I don't think that "Vivziepop hates Charlastor", or that there was some sort of conspiracy to "torpedo the Charlastor ship". If she did, she wouldn't have said, to paraphrase, "ship anyone you want from the show". (Hell, she once paired Vaggie and Angel Dust.)

Charlastor shippers have already known for a long time that Charlastor was never going to be canon, so Episode 5 doesn't really change anything we didn't already know. Shipping is supposed to be about fun, not "winning". If you ship Charlastor, that's okay. If you don't ship or like Charlastor, that's okay, too. However, making posts or comments saying "fuck you" to Charlastor shippers, or tagging anti-Charlastor posts as "#charlastor", is deeply rude and offensive.

Harassing or bullying Charlastor shippers is also unacceptable.

I don't think Vivziepop would approve, and as a "fandom oldie" (30+) who also has friends in animation, me and my personal friends are going to keep liking and shipping Charlastor, regardless of what is - or is not - "canon". I suggest other Charlastor shippers do the same.

[mallowtonmouse]

Instead of reblogging that horrible post about gatekeeping asexuality 'again' (did anyone really ever stop?), why not reblog a nice, thoughtful comic about it instead! <3

[ruleroftheforest05]

I will never not be upset at Alastor shippers. Why do you insist on taking this character, one of a small handful that share being aroace? Do I as an aromantic asexual not deserve representation? Do we as a community not get excluded enough when it comes to queer topics? You get upset when Vaggie is shipped with a man, you guys get upset seeing Angel Dust shipped with anyone else other than Husk, so why aren’t you when you completely erase another characters sexuality?

If someone were to draw a Latina character as white you would claim that it’s erasing a marginalized group, because it is, but when it comes to my sexuality it’s fine. So please, explain to me why you insist on shipping him in a none queer platonic way

[pep-rambles]

While I can't speak for other Alastor ships (but I'll tag you all and you can weigh in). But in the RadioApple/DuckieDeer fandom a lot of those making fanwork, including the smuttier stuff, are acespec/arospec themselves so maybe learn what is actually going on in these fandoms before try to gatekeep in their tags

[voxtekinc]

This blog is tied to our Voxtek server where we feature our awesome members' arts/stories.

Our discord is a "Voxtek themed" server where we talk about everything related to Hazbin Hotel!

All pairings are welcomed, cherished, and will be equally gushed at!

A cozy place for writers, artists, and readers to share the joy of this series and create the found family tropes.

Join a community where we are a...community! We have great festivals and events planned to celebrate the awesomeness that is Hazbin Hotel.

Here's what our members (moderators) has to say about the server! ft. @redfoxwritesstuff, @redvexillum, and @nyx-umbrakinesis

★ Join us today! ★

[cannibalistic-deer]

About Alastor and Shipping

I'm going to be completely honest here, as an Alastor fictive who is also aroace.

I think it's quite ridiculous in a sad way that aroace people who aren't fictives at all are so sensitive about people shipping Alastor.

Do you take it personally that someone is shipping an aroace character? Because you're aroace? It's not personal, and as long as nothing about canon changes, there's nothing wrong with it.

I put up with seeing drawings of this character, who I am a fictive of, doing things I would never do and am repulsed by. I hate seeing it. I'm unhappy with a significant portion of fandom content. And I just scroll past it. Because I know it's not about me, personally.

If such things became canon, it would be a problem. But no reasonable person is saying the shipping is canon.

There aren't very many "canon" ships in terms of the characters actually, currently being officially together. There's Charlie/Vaggie. And I think that's all. There are some characters who canonically have some feelings for others (ie. Pentious for Cherri Bomb) or have previous relationships (Lucifer and Lilith, etc.), but they are not presently, canonically, doing most of the things people are putting into shipping material.

But the point of shipping is NOT to make it canon. A lot of people don't want their ships to be canon at all. It's just exploring relationships between fictional characters.

And really, it's easy to imagine why so many aroace people also have Alastor ships. If a person is aroace, they may want to (or just be naturally inclined to) use a character they relate to when they are using shipping to explore topics or relationship types they don't want to personally be involved in.

NONE of the fanworks that people are making have any effect on canon. Canon!Alastor is not becoming any less aroace (or asexual at minimum) just because people are making fan content about him being in sexual or romantic relationships.

So what is the goal of complaining? To stop shipping? You can't do that. To stop people from posting about their Alastor ships? That's censorship. Being pro-censorship is not the right move.

In any case, it's all ridiculous to me. Just ship what you want. Let other people ship what they want.

And if they canonically put Alastor in some kind of relationship that changes his identity? Then sure, grab the pitchforks and have at it, because that would be erasure.

But until then, stop thinking you can police fandom content just because you personally don't like it.

[elsbookblorbos]

*ahem* SHIPPING AN AROACE CHARACTER WITHOUT REGARD TO THEIR ROMANTIC ORIENTATION IS JUST AS BAD AS SHIPPING A GAY MAN WITH A WOMAN 📣📣📣

[fanby-fckry]

You know what, I gotta say something about the Alastor ship wars.

I’m a multishipper, and I generally think ship wars are silly, but the increase in RadioDust hate combined with RadioApple being posited as the “acceptable” and “wholesome” Alastor ship bugs the fuck out of me.

Because if we look a little closer, I’m pretty sure we can figure out why a relationship between Angel and Alastor is considered “problematic” “unhealthy” or “impossible,” while a relationship between Lucifer and Alastor gets a pass. And the answer is sex.

People cannot be normal about asexuals or sex workers long enough to see them as anything more than their sex lives/lack-thereof, and therefor an asexual and a sex worker are completely incompatible to them.

If you can’t see Angel as anything other than a sex object, then congrats, you’ve missed the entire point of his character. Rewatch Masquerade and Welcome to Heaven, then get back to me.

If you think Alastor isn’t perfectly capable of setting boundaries regarding sex, you’re infantilizing him based on his asexuality. He is not an uwu blushing virgin who needs you to defend his innocence and keep the evil whore from deflowering him. He fucking kills people. Stop white-knighting the fictional serial killer. Asexuals have bodily autonomy just like the rest of you, and this particular ace in the hole is especially capable of maintaining that bodily autonomy.

Alastor’s aromanticism doesn’t factor in here at all, because there are QPR and romantic flavors of both ships, and across the board, RadioDust is treated worse.

It’s ok to not like RadioDust, but when you feel the need to outright attack people over it, then I think it’s time to maybe do a little introspection into why it invokes such a strong reaction. Or at least just block the tag and leave it at that.

Signed,

An aroace RadioApple and RadioDust multishipper who is tired of this nonsense.

[scribbly-dee]

I love how Alastor's aroace subtype is bullying pathetic men on sight

[chocfrog-enjoyer]

Name-play and symbolism in Harry Potter

Sirius Black: Dog Black the black dog ( Sirius is a star in the Canis Major // Big Dog //constellation, the star is commonly known as the “Dog Star” ). A dog is a man’s best friend ( unlike Peter, the rat, who ratted his friends out )

Remus Lupin: basically just Wolf Wolf ( Remus - roman hero raised by wolves. In Latin lupus means “wolf”, and lupinus “wolf-like” )

Rubeus Hagrid: In Greek Mythology, Hagrid Rubes is a giant who is banished from Mt. Olympus by Zeus and has to take care of animals. Hagrid is expelled from Hogwarts and becomes the groundskeeper- later on he starts teaching Care of Magical Creatures.

Sybille Trelawney: Said to be a descendant of the legendary Cassandra, in Greek mythology Cassandra was a woman with the ability to foresee future and a curse, that no one believed her prophecies. Here’s my post on why Sybill isn’t a fraud.

Xenophilous Lovegood: Xenophilius's name comes from two Greek words: Xenos "strange" and -Phile "love" -> one who loves the strange

Bellatrix Lestrange: Bellatrix means “female warrior” in Latin. She was one of Voldemorts most fierce and loyal followers.

Nymphadora Tonks: Nymphadora translates as "Gift of the Nymphs.” A "nymph," in Greek mythology, refers to "a member of group of female 'spirits' found in different types of nature.” They had the ability to transform/shapeshift" They are further classified by where they were found. In Latin, “nympha” translates to “bride, mistress. young woman” referencing the fact that Remus married Tonks, who’s 13 years younger than him.

Minerva McGonnagal: In Roman Mythology Minerva was the goddess of wisdom, war, art, schools, justice and commerce.

Dolores Umbridge: The word umbrage means offence or annoyance, and the Spanish name Dolores has its roots in the Latin word "dolor," which translates to "pain" or "sorrow."

Fenrir Greyback: Fenrir is a monstrous wolf in Norse mythology. Fenrir represents the forces of evil and chaos.

Gilderoy Lockhart: The Levels of Processing model, created by Fergus I. M. Craik and Robert S. Lockhart in 1972, describes memory recall of stimuli as a function of the depth of mental processing.

Merope Gaunt: In Greek mythology Merope is one of the seven Pleiades, daughter of Atlas and Pleione. Merope is the faintest of the stars because she was the only of the Pleiades to have married a mortal. One myth says that she hid her face in shame because she had an affair with a mortal man. ( Replace mortal with muggle and we have Merope Gaunt )

Lucius Malfoy: Lucius deriving from Latin words, meaning light/bright/to shine. “Mal foy” means “bad faith” in French. Draco is latin for “serpent/dragon”

Lily Evans ( later Potter ) and Petunia Evans ( later Dursley ): Lilies are often associated with purity, renewal and transience, and Petunias symbolize anger and resentment

Alastor Moody: Alastor, an epithet of the Greek God Zeus, according to Hesychius of Alexandria and the Etymologicum Magnum, which described him as the avenger of evil deeds, specifically familial bloodshed.

Quirinus Quirrell: In Augustan Rome, Quirinus was an epithet of Janus, as Janus Quirinus. Janus is the god of beginnings, gates, transitions, time, duality, doorways, passages, frames, and endings. He is usually depicted as having two faces.