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the-irreverend · 9 months ago

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The Inferno Theory: The Chara Theory to End All Chara Theories

Here we are! Nine years of Undertale. And seeing how Chara is heavily associated with the number 9 (AND THAT TOBY FOX FINALLY TALKED ABOUT THEM), I can't think of a better way to celebrate the occasion than by dedicating this 5000-word-long theory about them? Y'all remember when people used to make long-ass theories about Chara? Yeah, they're coming back with a vengeance! To say I have a colossal hyperfixation is a massive understatement. No character in all of fiction has had a bigger impact on my life than this little rose-cheeked, cocoa-addicted freak. I’ve been a Chara fan for as long as I’ve been an Undertale fan, and you can bet that my understanding of them has changed a lot since. And now I have the pleasure of sharing said understandings with y’all!

Once upon a time, there was an aroace autistic who, like most of y’all, had a very unhealthy obsession with Undertale. And unlike most of you, he thought the Genocide Route was really fun. Most fans talk about how unhappy they felt killing everyone, but for me, I felt like a polar bear at a baby harp seal convention. I got a disturbing level of happiness out of turning everyone to dust. Hell, the only unhappiness I felt was when I couldn’t turn Monster Kid to dust.

Oh well, at least I got a good consolation prize!

I was one sadistic son of a gun, and so I was even more delighted to find out I had a secret admirer/partner-in-crime and that they joined in on the fun because I was such a goshdarn inspiration to them. Not wishing to disappoint my self-appointed partner, I erased the world without a second thought, eagerly awaiting what we might get to do together.

So you can guess I was pretty taken aback when, instead of a warm welcome, they started lecturing me about how I couldn’t accept the world’s destruction and that I was the one fully responsible for it (even though they were eager to take credit for it earlier). I didn’t think much of it at first. Initially, I just thought that they were just irritated that I was undoing what we had worked so hard to accomplish.

But as this game taught me time after time, you should never trust your first impressions. Those first impressions would crumble to dust when they said this.

To say I was completely baffled is an understatement. Why the hell would this prepubescent genocidal maniac be so obsessed over whether or not I think I’m above consequences? So obsessed to the point they would tell me to go to hell if I told them no? It was at that moment I realized there was something more to this character than meets the eye. But for a long time, I couldn’t seem to figure out what that something was. And it didn’t seem like anyone could figure that out either.

I’m very much a veteran of the fan wars that have emerged surrounding Chara. In fact, one might even say I am a deserter of sorts, as I am a former member of the Chara Defence Squad, Offense Squad, and Neutralist Squad. But I’m not gonna be a stuck-up and say everyone’s a canon-ignoring idiot except for me and that I’m the only one who knows what Toby Fox intended Chara to be. Even though I ended up with a very different take than yours (and will certainly argue why it’s the best), I owe you all your discussions a huge debt, and I wouldn’t be here if I hadn’t gotten invested in your interpretations, to begin with. Not to mention that, contrary to what some may argue, you’ve made some valid points to complement them.

And while the debate that resulted from Chara’s ambiguous morality has led to a lot of controversy and even toxicity, it has also been a source of some FANTASTIC CONTENT. Like seriously, would we have gotten those badass renditions of Stronger Than You if no one thought Chara was an awful person? Would we have gotten Man on the Internet’s beautiful rendition of Star if no one thought Chara was a good person (turned awful)?

It would be utter hypocrisy for me to ask of you to approach me and my arguments (or anyone who accepts them) with understanding and good faith only to then not do the same to anyone who doesn’t agree with me. In this theory, I will definitely argue why some points made about Chara are flawed; points that you might hold yourself. But that doesn’t automatically mean that you (or your takes) are intellectually or morally inferior to mine. And besides, I’m not Toby Fox.

So with that said, why did I eventually came to disagree with pretty much everyone about Chara? Because, one way or another, I couldn’t find a take that clicked with me personally as I felt there were various inconsistencies and issues holding them back. I looked at YouTube videos, subreddits, Tumblr essays, Twitter threads, and even forums on the Steam Community. But I couldn’t really find what I thought were satisfactory answers to the questions I had about Chara’s motivations, role in the game, and relationship with the player.

And then, one day, I found those answers. It all happened when I asked myself: “What if Chara didn’t turn against me… because they were always against me from the start?!”

I don’t mean that Chara only saw you as a means to an end. I mean that YOU were the end. What if Chara didn’t use you so they could screw over the monsters but they used the monsters so they could screw over YOU.

You probably think I’m insane, don’t you? And you’re right! I AM INSANE! AND SO IS THIS WHOLE DAMN THEORY!!! But somehow, someway, it just works!! And I’ll show you why and how!!!

What you are about to read is the culmination of six years of reading and critiquing Chara takes and theories of every kind and quality, whether it be Judgement Boy’s Who is the Real Villain of Undertale to Wandydoodles’ Oblivion Theory. Six years of examining the arguments and counterarguments of Chara defenders, offenders, and neutralists alike. Six years of looking in every corner of the UTDR fandom. From the tranquil lands of Quora. To the dark recesses of Reddit. To the intellectual wastelands of Twitter. To the fiery hellsite of Tumblr. So, without further ado, get ready for some of the most pure, unadulterated, high-octane, universe-collapsing neurodivergence you’ve ever seen in your life!!!!!

Part 1: The demonic heritage of the "demon who comes when people call its name".

Have you ever had one of those moments where you’ve asked yourself, “What the actual hell is this guy talking about?” I bet you’re having that moment right now. Everything about their character post-death, including their motives, their methods, and their relationship with you, is perfectly reflected in one of their most famous (or rather infamous) lines:

When most people hear the word demon, the first thing that comes to mind is a being made of pure evil whose only purpose in life is to destroy all things good in the world. Right?

Well, yes, but actually, no. It’s a little more complicated than that. To argue that Chara is a demon because they’re simply “an evil little twerp that enjoys being evil” doesn’t do them or their role in Undertale justice (although that hasn’t stopped people from trying to argue that). To understand why calling themselves a demon is EXTREMELY important, we need to dive into the wonderful (and totally not controversial) world of religious beliefs!

In ancient and modern religions, demons are a little more complex than just ethereal jackasses with a vendetta against virtue and righteousness. Though they vary from faith to faith, most demons have a specific set of qualities and tropes that make them integral to whatever faith they’re in. You also see these demonic qualities in fiction that’s derived or inspired by religions, and since Undertale’s lore and worldbuilding have a heavy emphasis on the spiritual and divine, you can see them in Chara. Since Undertale is a game of “Western” origin, you can definitely see they share qualities that are all too familiar with devils of “Western” religions. In classic devil fashion, they target those with weak integrities or suspect morals; they tempt you with the promise of fulfilling your desires at your and everyone else’s expense; they’re able to control your body as you grow their power through your sins, and hell, they even do the thing where they make a deal for your soul. Also...

But though it's evident that Chara encourages you to do “evil,” THEY THEMSELVES are not responsible for it. Yes, Chara encouraged you to kill, but YOU are the one who acted on those encouragements. In fact, YOU are the one who encouraged THEM to help you out! They walked down the dark path with you, but you didn’t really give them anywhere else they could walk. You had all the power and every chance to turn back and no reason to keep walking. And yet you persisted.

But that does beg the question, why did you walk it at all? What could possibly inspire you to give all of these characters happiness, satisfaction, and peace and then rip it all away? Because you decided that giving everyone the most satisfying ending was not satisfying enough for you. Because there was more that you could experience for yourself, even if it meant making everyone else experience something absolutely horrific. It wasn’t enough for you to fill the glass only halfway. You needed to fill it to the brim. You wanted to reach the absolute. Even if doing the Genocide Run was a bad experience for you, you CANNOT deny it was a fulfilling one. And Chara knows it, too. It ain’t exactly a coincidence that fulfillment and fullness are recurring motifs in Chara’s character.

Like all demons, Chara is able to tempt the wicked and sinful by targeting our greatest weaknesses and deficiencies. It’s no different from how Succubi and Incubi target those who succumb to the sin of lust. That’s why you won’t go after my aroace ass anytime soon. But I digress.

But Chara doesn't just tempt us by exploiting our need to fill the glass to the brim but also because of how they exploit the satisfaction we get from watching it fill up, that is to say, the satisfaction that comes from trying to achieve fulfillment.

We humans are addicted to progression as much as we are to completion, and in an RPG like Undertale, the satisfaction of progression comes in the form of NUMBERS. Not just the numbers that flash on the screen when you battle enemies but also the ones that go up when you finish said enemies off, whether it be your hit points, experience points, and so on. And Undertale isn’t any ordinary RPG; it’s one where its RPG elements are interwoven into the fabric of the game’s universe. Because of that, Chara is able to use these elements in their world to influence those outside of it.

But Chara does not just influence us through the numbers that increase but also the ones that decrease. That’s why the first thing they do when we reach Snowdin is give us a tally.

It’s not just there to measure progress. It’s also there to incentivize us to keep progressing. It gives us a small dose of satisfaction that’s enough to distract us from the mundanity and misery of the murder run, like a loading bar on a loading screen. And just like with loading screens, the farther it progresses, the harder it gets to turn away. Why would you want all the lives you’ve taken and the stats you’ve gained to amount to nothing? Why would you want to hit reset and go through those brutal fights with Sans and Undyne again? You can’t empty out the glass, not when you’re that much closer to filling it to the brim. Speaking of Sans and Undyne, it’s quite interesting that even though they barely know you, they know exactly why you won’t take your foot off the pedal, so to speak.

But that’s not the only thing driving you, isn’t it? Chara knows that there was something else that was spurning you along. Something more powerful and more dangerous than your addiction to progression and completion: PRIDE.

Perhaps the real reason you kept giving in to sin until it was far too late was because you didn’t think it would be too late. You didn’t hold back because you thought you would be able to go back. You thought you could just absolve your sins with the press of a button like you did in countless worlds before. You thought you could dive in, touch the bottom, and come back out of the water. But what were you getting into? How deep would you have gone? And would you have gone in if you knew you couldn’t possibly return? You know you wouldn’t. And Chara knows it, too. That brings us back to the dialogue I showed you at the beginning of this theory. The one said changed everything I knew about this character, and I firmly believe that this is the MOST important line of dialogue in the entire franchise.

PART 2: THE PART WHERE I (PRETEND TO) DESTROY 9 YEARS OF ESTABLISHED FANON!

When I say that that little blurb about being above consequences is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL, I do not say that lightly. It isn’t just important to Chara's character, but the game of Undertale as a whole! Anyone who’s serious about Chara’s character should never take this for granted because Chara sure as hell does not.

It’s not just our refusal to accept the world’s destruction that’s a huge-ass deal to Chara; it’s the arrogance and complacency that accompanies it, rooted in the position and privileges we have as the player. It matters to them so much that they’re willing to completely forgo bartering for our soul (which they say they want) if we don’t admit that we have that belief!

And yet, despite Chara taking this subject so seriously, the people who are analyzing their character ironically don’t. Generally speaking, most people simply brush this line off as nothing more than something they do to help them on their quest to achieve their goals. So, with that said, let’s talk about what those supposed goals actually are.

In all my years of reading and assessing countless Chara theories and interpretations, I’ve discovered that everyone actually agrees on what Chara's goals are. They just can’t agree on why they want them. Said goals are A) reach the absolute, B) max out their numbers/power, C) erase the world, and/or D) eradicate all monsters. But what if it’s actually the other way around? What if those things were the means to an end rather than the ends themselves?

What if the true goal of the “demon who comes when people call its name” was just like that of the demons of old: not to be your partner in crime, but to torment and punish you for your crimes? To make you face CONSEQUENCES!

I’m not making this argument simply because it makes Chara look more badass (though I think it totally does, lol). I firmly believe that Undertale’s post-Genocide content is written so that Chara’s character can only make sense if that was Chara’s goal from start to finish. Because if Chara’s endgame was any of those four I mentioned earlier, their character kinda falls apart because they're awfully inconsistent about fulfilling them. And those inconsistencies are evident in the Second Geno Ending.

Discrepancy 1) They say they will “appear time and time again” to help us “eradicate the enemy and become strong,” and yet they call us perverted for eradicating everyone time and time again.

You can argue that they didn’t want us to recreate the world in the first place and just move on to another world, but if so, why let us come back at all? And if it’s to get our soul, why do they keep around this world after we have it? This leads us to...

Discrepancy 2) They tell us to ERASE the world and move on to the next, and yet they allow us to restore it without a hitch after we give them our SOUL, seeing how there’s no black void when we start the game again.

If Chara was powerless to stop us from coming back, this wouldn’t be such a big deal. But they CLEARLY DEMONSTRATE that they’re able to stop the player from restoring the world, as seen in the first post-genocide ending. And yet they don’t use this power after the first time the world is erased (WHICH YOU WOULD THINK THEY WOULD WANT TO USE SINCE THEY WANT TO ERASE THE WORLD AND MOVE ON TO ANOTHER)! Seeing how the world is back again without us doing anything makes the restoration of the world like something that Chara CHOSE ON THEIR OWN VOLITION. And what makes this all the more damning is...

Discrepancy 3) They tell us they’re down bad for increasing our ATK, DEF, EXP, and LV to the max and erasing the world and everyone in it, and yet they TELL US TO DEVIATE FROM THE ONLY ROUTE THAT ACCOMPLISHES THAT (which, as stated before, they call us perverse for doing it again).

So, let me get something straight. You tell us you want to ”eradicate the enemy” and “ erase this pointless world,” and yet not only are you allowing us to undo all of that, you want us to do something INSTEAD OF THAT??? It’s funny how you lecture us about how we cannot accept the world’s destruction BECAUSE, APPARENTLY, YOU WON’T EITHER!!!!! Also, before I forget...

Discrepancy 4)

WHAT KIND OF MISANTHROPE DEDICATES THEIR WHOLE LIFE TO WIPING OUT HUMANITY, GETS GIFT-WRAPPED A CHANCE TO DO THAT, AND THEN JUST PASSES IT UP?!?!?!

On behalf of misanthropes everywhere, I am DEEPLY disappointed in you!

So it doesn’t matter if you believe Chara is always evil, good, or detached from morality entirely. Because Chara has the same goal across all versions, they all succumb to the same inconsistencies!

Funny how most people see them as this embodiment of the addictive nature of levelling up and consuming everything in a piece of media and all that jazz WHEN THEY SEEM TO CASUALLY GIVE UP ON IT!!!!!!

And if you argue they want a Soulless Pacifist Run when they suggest “another path,” then ask yourself, what does that give them that a Genocide Run doesn’t? Keep in mind, aside from a scribbled-out photograph, we don’t see how many monsters or humans they killed besides the main characters or how much power and stats they gained from it. And it’s not like we see them erase the world afterward since only the genocide run has that infamous wall of red 9s. Not to mention, the genocide run is the most secure way of accomplishing their goals since they have the backing of the player. Not only that, but it’s also the safest and most efficient way to erase everyone and increase stats to the fullest, and we all know how Chara feels about efficiency.

So Chara has no reason to pick the Soulless pacifist ending over the Genocide Run if they want to achieve their end of increasing numbers and consuming the world… unless those things were a means to an end rather than ends themselves.

Indeed it is coming together! That’s the other reason their statement, “You think you’re above consequences,” is so damn important! They’re not telling us why we sinned, but it reveals they intend to make us suffer for those sins, and how.

That’s why Chara is seemingly so inconsistent about erasing the world. Because it was never about the world. It was all about YOU.

[SIDE NOTE: I’m sure many of you will point out that if Chara wanted us to get a Soulless ending in this world, then why would they encourage us to “move on to the next?” I don’t think this is too big an issue for two reasons. First, this line is meant to emphasize that, like all demons, Chara is inescapable and that no matter what world you go to (within their own universe), Chara will always follow you now that you’ve unleashed them. Second, because their goal concerns us and not the world they’re a part of, their character avoids the aforementioned inconsistencies that hamper the other Chara theories much more severely, in my opinion.]

Part 3: Contrapasso

Now I’m sure some of y’all might think that Chara doesn’t need to yearn for our torment to achieve the impact of the Soulless ending and that just because Chara is a demon doesn’t automatically mean they need to screw us over. You are right in that not everyone who makes a Faustian Bargain needs to have malicious intentions toward the people they’re taking advantage of (Kuybey from Madoka Magica is a great example of that). But Chara does need it! Not only does it make their character more narratively cohesive, but also makes their character more thematically impactful. And it’s more in tune with their demonic nature for them to want to torment us.

Because demons represent something more terrifying than evil itself. They represent the terrible price of embracing it, a price that all evildoers fear more than anything, and that all demons want seek to inflict upon us. Like most demons, Chara isn’t encouraging us to sin to fill the emptiness in our soul (or even their own). They did it to perpetuate that torturously empty and unfulfilled state for all eternity, a state which even themselves now endure.

Now, you’ve probably noticed that I’ve talked a lot about the themes of fulfillment and emptiness, and it’s for a good reason since those themes are heavily featured in Undertale. I mean, how could it not? Because concepts of demons, hell, and sins (which are explicitly mentioned in the game) are deeply intertwined with the concept of emptiness. The theologian Thomas Aquinas once defined evil as not a presence but as an absence (of that which is good). Darkness is the absence of light; war is the absence of peace; bigotry is the absence of tolerance; pride is the absence of humility, etc. You see this reflected in not just Christian theology but also fiction as a whole, as a lot of villains are motivated by a desire to obtain something that they believe can’t be without. Whether it be wealth, status, recognition, power, the death of an individual, or even just sadistic pleasure.

Since demons are beings that are inseparable from evil itself, the life of a demon is forever cursed by unceasing and unbearable emptiness. Hell, the word damnation originated from the Latin word damnum, which literally means loss! They’re not exactly partying in hell while your immortal soul is being slow-roasted for eternity. They’re burning in that lake of fire and brimstone along with you! They can’t end their damnation, not because they don’t want to but because they simply can’t. They’re fated to be bereft of the satisfaction or fulfillment found in Heaven or Earth, a fate that is worse than death in every sense of the word, especially since they can’t experience death anymore. Because of that, a demon embodies what is perhaps the most terrifying form of evil of all: not one rooted in a desire to rid the emptiness and unfulfillment within themselves, but a desire to inflict them upon others. Because as a wise philosopher once said:

We see this horrific state of mutually assured suffering everywhere across fiction. From goofy, lighthearted tokusatsu's...

...to nightmarish sci-fi dystopias...

...to a little indie game made 9 years ago.

Oh yeah. Don’t think I was gonna talk about emptiness without mentioning everyone’s favourite homicidal fauna-turned-flora, especially not with lines like this.

Take one to know one! And it can’t be a coincidence that the game emphasizes the theme of emptiness when giving the spotlight to the three characters that have committed the most “evil”: Flowey/Asriel, Chara, and YOU.

Quite the unholy trinity going on here, eh? It truly is fascinating how the emptiness led us to work with each other to exterminate all monsters. And it’s also interesting how the unique kind of emptiness we have eventually led us to work against each other. Whether it be Flowey wishing to preserve his sentimentality for his long-gone sibling, us players wanting to maintain our (perverted) sentimentality for the world of Undertale, or Chara weaponizing these sentimentalities to exact their misanthropic hatred.

Remember how I said that Chara was a lousy misanthrope because they keep letting us bring back the humans they wanted annihilated when they were alive? That does make them a lousy misanthrope… unless their misanthropy found a higher priority target: YOU!!!!!

Chara’s desire to torment us didn’t come out of thin air. The same hatred that drove them to wipe out the humans of their world years ago is the same hatred that’s driving them to get at the humans of our world, even if it means destroying those who once embraced them. And now, that hatred is more potent and destructive than ever before, so much so that it’s no wonder Toriel was able to feel it when she endured that fatal blow after the Geno Run began.

Do you think witnessing what soullessness did to sweet little Asriel wasn’t already terrifying and tragic enough? Just try to imagine what it could‘ve done to a vengeful, traumatized, chocolate-addicted problem child so consumed by hatred that they poisoned themselves just for a chance to wipe out their own kind. All of that hatred of humanity is still alive and well, and now it has no humanity to hold it back.

And what could be a more fitting target for a MISANTHROPE that calls themselves a DEMON… than a HUMAN that wants to play GOD?

After all, the only thing demons love more than tormenting mortals is warring with Gods.

Why else do you think that Chara winks right at you if we make Frisk stay with Toriel? Because that’s who the Soulless Ending was meant for. It’s when they’re finally able to unleash all that animosity and hatred that’s been lurking behind that smile ever since we killed everyone in the Ruins. It’s the moment that they’ve been patiently waiting for because they knew that’s when it would hit you the hardest.

And what makes the Soulless Pacifist Ending very special compared to other “bad endings” isn’t simply because they destroy those we pretend to care about (may I remind you that you did do the genocide run, after all). But they destroy something much more valuable to us as the players: OUR OMNIPOTENCE. Chara doesn’t destroy people for the sake of destroying them. But because in doing so they destroy our arrogant belief that nothing could possibly challenge the invisibility and invulnerability we players take for granted.

It's all too human that those with the most power are the least willing to lose it (or even take responsibility for it). And in a world where we should have absolute power, we thought there would be no consequences for abusing it. So what could be a more fitting and frightful punishment than having to actually face them? Missing out on the best ending in a video game is one thing. But to forever lose the power to achieve it ever again?! Now that’s terrifying!

Throughout myth, legend, and religion, sinners are often punished in a way befitting of the sin they’ve committed. In Greek Mythology, Tantalus was damned for trying to feed the Gods the flesh of his murdered son with eternal hunger and thirst despite being within arm’s reach of water and food. In Dante’s Inferno, those who succumb to wrath are forever doomed to fight each other in a river of mud. And since Undertale is no stranger to concepts such as hell, sins, and demons, you can damn well be sure that there’s going to be damnation fitting for the sins that drove you to complete the genocide run.

You completed the Genocide Run because you believed ending their lives would be fulfilling. Now, you can no longer get any fulfillment out of saving their lives.

I mean, where else can you get your precious fulfillment? Those paltry neutral endings? They only offer a fraction of what the pacifist ending offered. And the genocide ending has been drained of its satisfaction like the pacifist! Would you do all that tedious grinding and brutal boss fights just to hear your so-called “partner” lecture you again on perverted sentimentality and say you should choose another path, even though there’s nothing that they could offer? Of course not. In the end, you’re just like poor Tantalus agonizing in the pits of Tartarus, feeling the water vanish from his hands just before it touches his lips.

The ultimate triumph of Chara isn’t making you suffer a total defeat, but perhaps something much worse to you as a gamer: a pyrrhic victory. It’s like having a Twinkie that's been drained of the creamy center. Everything is still there except the thing you treasure most. You’re damned to play a challenge forever deprived of any and all fulfillment you once got from it, a satisfying journey that will always be doomed to reach a dissatisfying destination.

In the end, Chara leaves you with the world exactly as they described it the first time they met you face-to-face: POINTLESS.

You can have the world exactly as it was before (and the people within it). But in the end, Chara will always have the last laugh.

Figuratively and literally.

Welcome to hell!

Part 4: Why Consequences Matter

Woooooo!!! Man, that was quite the read, wasn’t it? And yeah, I wasn't kidding when I said this is going to be autistic as all hell! I don’t doubt you have a lot of thoughts in your mind, and then you’re gonna share them by the time you’re finished reading this post. Some of you might think this is the Chara theory to end Chara theories. Some of you believe that this is the worst thing that has happened to this fandom since Sebastian Wolff. Some of y’all, I’m whitewashing them because I argue they’re driven by a desire to punish the wicked by any means necessary. Some will think I’m demonizing them because I say that they’re, well, a demon.

[SIDE NOTE: Just so I don’t miscommunicate what I believe about Chara’s morality, here are some key points to take away from this theory. A) Chara sought to make you pay for the evil you committed. In fact, the idea that the Soulless Ending is Chara punishing our sins has been around for a while, especially by those who think Chara was “corrupted. B) However, in this theory, Chara's actions are all done with the intent of accomplishing that goal. This means that Chara was aware of what they were doing, they wanted to do it, and that THEY KNEW IT WAS EVIL. C) But you still have to remember that Chara is also A LITERAL CHILD. And D) They’re a child who endured a great deal of hardship (and possibly trauma), which made them so embittered and vengeful. Also, E) Remember that they’re also soulless, just like Asriel when he was Flowey.]

But I think most of you were gonna look at this interpretation of Chara and feel the same thing that I have about most of yours: a take that’s not without issues, but not without a fair bit of interesting points.

But regardless of what you think of this theory overall, there’s one thing I won’t leave up for debate: I deeply treasure Chara’s character. Not just because I think they’re fun, cool, or interesting but also because I firmly believe they’re invaluable Undertale. And yet, at the same time, I think they’re severely undervalued by the fandom. And who can blame them?

The characters of Undertale speak very little of Chara, and Chara speaks for themselves even less. But just like Johan Liebert from the anime Monster, even though they’re not seen too often, they still manage to exert a massive presence and impact within Undertale’s narrative. And that presence is made all the more impactful because they perfectly represent the themes of the narrative: and that theme is CONSEQUENCES, or more accurately, the CONSEQUENCES OF VIOLENCE.

From the violence that drove Chara to climb Mt Ebott to the violence their brother Asriel inflicted in hopes of being with them forever. From something as grand as a war between two civilizations to something as small as dismembering a snowman. Everywhere you look, you will see that violence (and its repercussions) haunts the story and characters of Undertale. But what makes Undertale stand out from other media that tackles this subject is that it’s not just an integral part of its narrative but also its metanarrative. The most ingenious way it does this is by giving meaning to the actions/mechanics that we take for granted, specifically monster encounters.

Our Lord and Saviour Toby Fox said it best:

Because the monsters of Undetale are treated as something more than just enemies to be killed, there are going to be consequences for choosing to kill them away. Some argue that it goes too far in how it admonishes you for killing even a single monster, even to the point of being preachy (I’m looking at you, ScottFalco, but that’s a response for another day).

That argument is deeply flawed because it fails to account for the fact that without these ramifications, the game’s themes would be rendered null and void. The last thing that a game with a narrative centred around the consequences of violence can afford to do is afford you the luxury of avoiding them. And that principle especially applies if you dare to choose nothing BUT violence.

If you were to bring them all back as if nothing happened, then your decision to commit genocide would be completely meaningless, which would totally disservice Undertale themes regarding violence. There needs to be consequences. LASTING CONSEQUENCES. Undertale can’t drive home its messages and them without lasting consequences. Undertale can’t deliver those consequences without Chara in the driver’s seat. And Chara’s character can only be at their most narratively cohesive and thematically impactful if seeking to make us suffer consequences was their intended destination.

Regardless of whatever detail about Chara you’re discussing or what side of the discussion you’re on, one thing is very clear: they’re absolutely essential to Undertale in the same way that Mephistopheles is essential to Faust, the Cenobites are essential to Hellraiser, and Kuybey is essential to Madoka Magica. And they’re the only ones with the means, motives, and deep-seated misanthropy to hold this whole damn game together.

Sans is right. We deserve to be burning in hell for what we did to those poor monsters. And I can't think of anyone more qualified to have us humans “burning in hell” than a self-proclaimed demon with a seething hatred of humanity.

And how fitting is it that the skeleton who judges our sins is followed by a human child who punishes us for them?

BUT HEY, THAT'S JUST A THEORY!

A CHARA THEORY!

THANKS FOR READING!

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thecyden · 4 days ago

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Maggie & Negan: A F*cked-Up Dynamic That Makes Too Much Sense

Once upon a time, my dad—a hardcore TWD universe fan—suggested I watch Dead City. Apparently, in our relationship, I’m the grumpy traditionalist who clings to the original series and side-eyes anything new. But I gave it a shot.

Let’s be real: the plot? Not great. And I wouldn’t have made it through if not for Maggie and Negan. Jesus Christ, those two grabbed me by the throat and refused to let go. Let's address the walker in the room: Yes, I'm emotionally invested in the dynamic between a widow and her husband's killer. No, I don't need therapy (probably). Listen. I’m not saying it’s healthy. I’m saying it’s fascinating. And it’s not just because Negan aka Jeffrey is a stud who’d make a killer power couple with Maggie (though, yes!). It’s because their chemistry is electric, layered, and earned. Years of buildup, trauma, and twisted interdependence make their dynamic fascinating. Their relationship isn’t about romance—it’s about obsession, survival, and the f*cked-up ways grief binds people together. I’m obsessed, so here’s my take on #Neggie for anyone who cares.

Why It Couldn’t Have Happened Sooner

Some fans try to force them together right after Glenn’s death, or during All Out War. That’s not just unrealistic—it’s impossible.

That first year? Maggie wasn't just grieving—she was haunted. Every glance at Negan was Glenn's last moments replaying on loop. Even years later, she still couldn’t look at him without seeing Glenn’s bashed-in skull. But by Dead City, something shifts. She’s had years to sit with her rage, and instead of fading, it’s mutated. It's no longer white-hot rage—it's a cold, calculating obsession that's kept her alive longer than any weapon ever could.

Negan was hyperfixated on Rick—their war, their rivalry. Maggie was barely on his radar. Post-war Negan was still a narcissist—his redemption was performative. He helped people, sure, but mostly to prove he could. And Maggie? He sees her as a living monument to his sins.

This Isn’t a Love Story (And It Never Will Be)

Maggie and Negan’s bond isn’t about romance. It’s about being the only two people who truly see each other.

Think about it: every person Maggie has ever loved is gone. Glenn. Beth, parents, the farm. Hershel (physically present but emotionally galaxies away). Even Rick's group are just memories now.

Negan is the only living archive of her pain. The man she’s spent years obsessing over. Her vengeance is her anchor. If she killed him, she’d be hollow. If she killed him, she'd erase the last witness to her grief. Worse—she loses the purpose that's fueled her survival.

Negan never had real connections—not in the Sanctuary, where he was feared, not worshipped. Not until Carl, Judith, and later Annie. But Maggie? She’s always been in his head, a ghost of guilt and unfinished business.

He's spent years trying to outrun his past, but Maggie is his past. Notice how he never truly fights back against Maggie's manipulation. He wants her to punish him because he thinks he deserves it. That's why he follows her into hell without protest.

They’re stuck in this twisted codependency, and I’m fascinated by it.

TL;DR: They’re toxic, tragic, and the most compelling duo in TWD right now. Fight me. Anyone else weirdly invested in these two?

#maggie x negan #negan x maggie #neggie #twd #maggie #maggie rhee #negan smith #twd spoilers #twd dead city #dead city

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gotstabbedbyapen · 8 months ago

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I have very complicated feelings for the Vengeance Saga (after the first listen)

Disclaimer: I will only criticize Epic the Vengeance Saga as a work on its own, not for its inaccuracy or deviation from mythology and The Odyssey. There are more knowledgable people who can point out and analyze the changes in Epic the Musical, but that is not what I'll be tackling here.

To put it bluntly, I'm not being angsty about it as I should. The whole saga just... didn't feel right with me.

Now, first off all, I'm a big fan of Epic and had been following it since the Cyclops saga (first version). I've been in love with many songs and hyperfixed it for months on end. But when the Vengeance saga came along, I didn't feel that same bubbling love rise in me.

Even as a fan, this isn't my first time having peeves with Epic. I didn't jam with the re-release sagas for a while, I'm underwhelmed with the Circe VS Odysseus fight and other issues, very unpopular opinion but "Monster" wasn't too impactful to me, and also the God Games (especially Zeus' attack).

The Vengeance Saga though? Well, they say we gotta do the Bun-Meat-Bun (or whatever the hell its name really is) technique when giving criticism, so I'll start with the good parts.

I love that Odysseus looked so done with Calypso in "Not Sorry For Loving You". They're basically this meme:

Like sorry you're a sad but you're still an abuser 😒

Then Odysseus starts singing the reprise for "Full Speed Ahead" but there's no one to back him up. That one hits me hard. To whoever on Tumblr said that after the Thunder Saga we will never hear the crew's back-up again and Odysseus' singing will be answered with silence, Apollo really blessed you with the red ball.

Hermes and the Winions' part was really cool too! I really like them being mischievous helper! The warning about the wind bag and the changing scene of Odysseus fighting off sea monsters while Hermes just vibing with the beats is 👌👌👌

But after that the hype started to sizzle out for me. You might want to skip this part if you're not comfortable with harsh criticism because I WON'T hold back.

It's really backward but I like the Odysseus VS Charybdis draft more than the final production. Charybdis' roars and music are somehow less intimidating, which is a shame because I thought this would be one of the biggest struggles Odysseus will face. Even with awesome illustrative animatics, the scene wasn't as thrilling as I've expected.

The other songs got massive improvement from its draft version (on top of my mind I can think of "Thunder Bringer", "There Are Other Ways", "Little Wolf"), but I don't get why "Charybdis" didn't get up-graded as much like them. It's like a cake that was throughly baked but half decorated and it just didn't taste as good as I've hoped.

Then we have the Odysseus VS Poseidon part in "Get In The Water" and "Six Hundred Strikes". The first thought I had for GITW is this song sounds like all the draft snippets were mashed together without a smooth transition/connection between them. Jorge and Steven's performance is great, but there's not enough tension for me to dread for Odysseus. When Poseidon first met Odysseus in "Ruthlessness", the whole opening was terrifyingly good! And we didn't even have any illustration animatic back then! (that's not to say the GITW animatics were bad, they just can't salvage much when the song itself was already weak)

I wasn't impressed with Poseidon's Shatter The Ocean move either. It's supposed to be the Strongest AttackTM but it's less scary than when he and the Laestrygonians destroyed Odysseus' eleven ships with probably 1% of their power. It didn't even help when Poseidon looked like he's having a seizure with lights pouring out of his eyes and mouth during the transformation.

Odysseus being literally on the brink of death with the souls of his loved ones pulling him into the abyss is a gem in the rough, but because we've seen Odysseus almost drowning before in the end of the Thunder Saga, it's not as shocking as it should be. Furthermore, Poseidon could have instant-killed Odysseus right then and there but didn't really annoyed me. But I guess he just wanted Odysseus to slowly suffer while dying.

Right when I thought the progress will get better, it... gets down. I can go with Odysseus using wind to escape the water, but him wearing it like a jetpack is so comical it ruined the drastic of the situation. And I'm officially let down when Odysseus FUCKING ATTACKED Poseidon in "Six Hundred Strike".

What? Just... why with that choice?

Look, I'm not gonna fault Epic for making creative liberties from the source material (as said in the disclaimer), but I will criticize if that change contradict itself in the transformative work. And this is one of them.

Poseidon and the gods have been proven time and time again in the musical just how powerful they are. Their ominous and grandiose entrances, them striking fear and inferiority in our hearts just by singing. Even Circe, a low-level goddess, poses a constant threat to the crew and Odysseus had to get help from Hermes just to get a chance to corner her (and Hermes even joked that he can still die!)

Poseidon easily destroyed almost all of Odysseus' fleet. Odysseus was very avoidant of him, opting to go to the literal Underworld to find instruction on how to dodge him and sailing through Scylla's lair + willing to sacrifice six men for safe passage. And when Poseidon said he can drown all of Ithaca, it's not just bluffing, he would and could have done that. Yeah, the King of the Sea is THAT BIG of a threat.

So no, Odysseus isn't cool to attack Poseidon, he's being stupid. I'm not even cheering for him the whole time he fight, just groaning at how ridiculous the whole thing is. If Epic is more believable and sticks to WHAT IT HAD ESTABLISHED BEFORE, having a sudden burst of anger and choosing ruthlessness won't save Odysseus from one swipe of Poseidon's trident. Odysseus stood no chance against one of the most powerful deity, even if he's the protagonist and love his family.

Not only that, Poseidon didn't even defend himself and was wounded by a mere human! And he just sat there and took all the blows and insults from Odysseus??? And he actually begged Odysseus to stop and agree to quell the storm to let him get home??? I'm not buy that bullshit. I'm more upset that a literal Olympian god was nerfed down than Odysseus having a Gary Stu moment. Give me a break, that try-hard moment to be cool and edgy just show how badly written the scene is.

What's the fucking point of hyping up how dangerous the gods are if a human can take one down? Tell me this isn't some Wattpad-y Greek myth retelling fanfic where the teenage Y/N sass her way to defeat an entire pantheon. Epic really traded its opportunity to be better for some cheap and out-of-the-blue dramas in this saga, dare I say it's even worse than Zeus' OOC attack on Athena. I'm very disappointed with that decision.

On an end note, the saga did have one saving point with the "After everything you've done, how will you sleep at night?" - "Next to my wife" lines. Odysseus knew he could be the most horrendous man ever and Penelope would still choose his side, that just show how powerful their love and faith in each other are.

But not enough to excuse all the terrible cinematic choices.

#epic the musical #epic the vengeance saga #jorge rivera herrans #song analysis #song review #my reviews #my ramblings #Spotify #Youtube #The Pen explodes with ink #after being let down with Zeus and Poseidon's OOC thing #i now have lower hopes for the Ithaca Saga #i guess at least there aren't any more “evil gods” to be ruined #let's just see how it goes #but seriously what's happening to Epic??? it was so good until Love in Paradise #and i feel like the musical is now on a downward slope #am i expecting too much?!

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sirwow · 1 year ago

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More AvA/AvM thoughts and a longer rambling under the cut to get my thoughts out

Admittedly this is all going to come out of the blue but that is my fault for saying nothing about a year old hyperfixation till now. Anywho!

The color gang coming from the online world where all the other sticks live has been in my head since we saw the outside world. Yes they’re way more vibrant then most there but purple and their parents are also a very vibrant trio. So I have my thoughts on the four. Obviously don’t have any parents around (wasn’t my fault for once shocker /lh) and are most definitely not related really. So it gives me the thought of the 4 always being friends since they were small and fighting/playing is just what they usually did with no parents figures other then a care taker.

But then how’d they get on the stick fight site? Well considering it was not until AvA 4 when we saw them they most definitely saw other famous stick fights that wanted to make them be part of it. Hell in AvYT we see at the end they all just wanted to watch epic stick fights. So yeah thought I’d they basically ganged together to make their own site to show off their epic fights together while also living in said site together. Worked well.

Then a certain someone broke down the wall one day and they were like damn this is kinda neat. Kept the site of course it is their literal home but after more and more or AvM they considered the PC, TSC and Alan more as their home and so started staying there more. The little Minecraft houses, finding interests outside of just fighting, and living out their fantasies with the power of minecraft.

They’re still all identical looking for a long time though. I think the accessories I draw them with were drawn by TSC as gifts but not until after AvM 30. They’ve learned so much more at that point about themselves I could imagine being identical as each other and just being “them sticks that fight” still gets a bit old. Course’ they can take off the accessories when they feel so but kept them in the back pocket. TSC hasn’t felt any feeling to change their looks so he hasn’t.

Well then anywho it’s very late and though I have more AvA thoughts I need to contain them for when it’s not 3 in the morning ! So instead some smaller stuff Iv noticed while obsessively observing episodes and shorts (mostly Blue because I heart blue)

Blue unlike the rest of the color gang is very… plain. And I don’t mean this in a negative sense. It’s more a lesser degree of creativity from him on most accounts. He’s not very creative in his solutions most the time and has very straightforward solutions to issues that in his mind are straightforward. Break an axe? Make a new one. Gotta go fast? Drugs Potions that make you faster. Yeah there’s cooking but he never really does anything creative with it outside of adding nether warts like the lil freak /pos he is. Follows a written recipe and taught lesson.

It’s a quiet aspect of him I only really noticed a few days ago. Not that this is a negative aspect again but something that makes him stand out more!

Now then uhh smaller random stuff I just always like. Lush Caves ep, Red realizing oh god he can’t win this fight Vs TSC and started running from them instead. Always makes me boowomp a little thinking about it since Red is kinda the younger usual happy go lucky prankster. TSC I know you’re also young and stressed but continuing to get his ass was NOT the way man,,

Last thought, King just trying to avenge his son only to come out of the situation with like 6 new adoptive kids is very funny to me. They say vengeance is a life well lived so I guess he got vengeance 6 times over. Ok gn (ecplodes)

#ava #AvM #animation vs animator #animation vs minecraft #avm red #avm tsc #avm yellow #avm green #ava the chosen one #I should find better times to write instead of 3 am maybe

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izunias-meme-hole · 7 months ago

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One Villainous Scene - A Monster Kills His Creator

Been on a fckin' comics hyperfixation/had a love reignited recently, and considering recent events I feel like now is a perfect time to talk about a specific walking magnet who's lived through an actual fascist regime. He's a man who's seen genocide firsthand, and it's impacted how he thinks forever. He's one of fiction's most popular knight templar's, and has almost become as awful as the types of people he hates before dialing it back or just getting stopped on several occasions. I'm talking about the Master of Magnetism, the leader of the Brotherhood of Mutants, the holocaust survivor himself, Erik Lehnsherr a.k.a Magneto.

X-Men First Class is easily one of the best of Fox's X-Men films, and a lot of that is thanks to it's origin for Magneto, which still keeps his background as a kid who survived the holocaust, but they expanded upon it by giving him a very personal tormentor in the form of Sebastian Shaw, a mutant supremacist who was temporarily aligned with the Nazi party. Shaw pretty much made Erik his lab rat after shooting the kids mom before his eyes just to see what triggers his ability to move metal. Following the end of WWII, Erik would pretty much spend a good majority of life dedicated to hunting ex-nazi's that were connected to this fucker.

Around 2 decades later, Erik, still continuing his mission for vengeance, would find Shaw but would almost be killed by his mutant allies. This is what ends up putting him on the same team as Charles Xavier, a telepathic mutant and the man who he'd become a close friend to. Despite forming a bond with Charles, Erik still had a burning desire for vengeance, except now it was paired with the justifiable fear of a mutant holocaust. Though his thirst for revenge would be quenched during the final act of the film when he and Charles would try to stop WWIII.

Erik once again confronts Shaw, except its mutant to mutant now. Shaw at first overpowers Erik, but when he knocks off the telepathy-resistant helmet that Shaw was wearing, Charles freezes the bastard. Though after this happens Erik apologizes to Charles, before putting on that same damn helmet, cutting off his friend as he proceeded to tell Shaw this:

"If you're in there, I want you to know that I agree with every word you said. We are the future. But, unfortunately, you killed my mother."

Erik then takes out a Reichsmark coin, the same coin that Shaw asked him to move before gunning down his mother and counts down to 3 as he moves it towards Shaw's head. Despite not being able to reach his friend, Charles pleads for Erik to stop. But it's too late. Charles doesn't stop Erik from shoving the coin through Shaw's skull as he feels every inch of agony that Shaw's unable to express. It's a deserved fate for someone that cruel, but at the same time it was the birth of a monster who would carry that belief of mutant supremacy.

This is what Magneto during his time as a villain has always been, and this scene perfectly shows that. A boy suffered through a real genocide, grew up with the fear of another happening, and ironically turned into a similar (Similar not the same) type of person to the ones that ruined his life in his attempts to do good. A prime example of how one who fights monsters can sometimes turn into the monsters they fight. Thank god, he barely avoids truly becoming that awful.

#magneto #erik lehnsherr #x-men #x-men first class #marvel #one villainous scene #analysis

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caliburn-not-calculator · 4 days ago

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Lord of the Rings hyperfixation is back with a vengeance

I’m in the trenches guys

And by trenches I mean pls don’t look at my YouTube history it’s a concerning number of hours of lore videos. And now I’m home I’ve got my books back. There’s no getting out of this one

#haha #I’m so normal rn #middle earth my beloved #I need to be there pls #I have however been inflicted with the memory of my ocs from when I was like 12 #they’re mostly fine but #wow #my taste in everything has changed drastically

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ragnarokhound · 9 months ago

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omg sweetie pie don’t talk about chains I’ll BLUSH. definitely never been into that…

How do you think the rest of the Batfam reacts to Jaytim finally happening (something along the lines of your secretary fic) ?

I think Cass knew how they felt before them, Damian is disgusted (but secretly pleased), Dick found out by walking in on them at Tim’s apartment, and Bruce had no idea and has none until Jason tells him point blank. Alfred? Somehow orchestrated the whole thing.

I'll keep that in mind babe ;) (*adds 'Spicy Hardware' to the budget)

Ohoho, that is a fun question, and one that I often have trouble answering because I am like a horse with blinders on when it comes to my hyperfixations and my ships OTL Jason and Tim usually get the brunt of my obsessive analysis, leaving only minimal room for other characters to squeeze their way in. RIPeroni you two ❤️

That being said, I'm a huge liar because I do actually have some Thoughts lol

It largely depends on the state of the verse we're in and how involved the others were in watching their courtship go down, so without further adieu, here's how I think the batfam would react to finding out about jaytim's newly minted relationship in my secretary!au fic:

So in Secretary!AU in particular, the others weren't involved to an almost suspicious degree 😳 Tim is losing his mind for a month over Jason daylighting as his secretary, and he never finds out anything resembling the truth from anyone? What??

Which of course means some of them were simply unaware because they don't give a shit or assume Tim isn't suffering (Damian, Duke, Bruce) and some ARE aware to some degree that this is unusual and came to their own conclusions. And promptly decided to stay out of it (Dick, Babs, Steph, Cass, Alfred - Duke might actually be here, it depends lol)

In particular, Steph hears Tim's mini rant/breakdown Day 1 and is simply too amused. Because she watched him suddenly start deflecting Jason's attention 3 months ago, and oh boy does this feel like a comeuppance. She's got popcorn and is asking things like, 'i dunno Tim, why do you think Jason followed you to the office where you have to reliably be?' and after all of it, when he shows up with a hickey after patrolling with Jason that night, she golf claps at him

Cass shrugs at Tim when he vents where she can hear, because she's been waiting for them to figure this out for like. A year now. She is surprised when Tim had his Jason-shaped epiphany because she knows that Tim has been Into Jason ever since that time in the park with Poison Ivy, and Jason called him a princess for getting particular about decon. (Similarly, Cass also knew that Jason has been low-key into Tim since the time before that, when Tim ugly laughed so hard at a joke Jason made at Dick's expense that he nearly inhaled a french fry). When they get together, she is standing next to Steph, also golf clapping because Steph told her it would be funny

Dick had to listen to Jason complain about Tim ghosting him a month or two into it (Jason and Dick were in each other's vicinity and Jason asked how Tim was doing. Dick said he was 'fine, why?' And Jason scowled and muttered, 'No reason. Feel like he's been dodging me, is all' and a tiny red alert pinged in the back of Dick's head) so when he hears that Jason is at Wayne Tower and that Tim is having vent sessions about it with Steph, his eyebrows shoot waaaay up. He kind of hopes that the Tower is still standing after Jason's done getting whatever vengeance he has in mind (Jason's prank war game is both legendary and unhinged). When he finds out what actually transpires (or rather, guesses what transpired), he has a small moment of relief because 'oh phew, is that all?' and then immediately BSODs because 'WAIT WHAT, IS THAT WHY YOU GUYS ARE CLAPPING--'

Babs quietly figured out why Tim was panicking pretty early because no one ghosts someone for having a good, fun, tbh flirty relationship for literally any other reason. She wondered vaguely if Jason was going to a) clock it and then b) do anything about it, and then equally quietly paused auto-uploads on Wayne Tower office footage so that she could make Tim review it instead. She simply Will Not be the one to log the data from Monday morning, thanks.

Damian did not and does not give a fuck. He briefly questions Todd's sanity. Then immediately discards that thought because it's Todd. He would like Grayson to quit yelling at that octave though, because his 'i'm secretly happy for you but also hurt that you didn't confide in me' shouting is very grating and makes Damian nervous.

Duke I'm on the fence about, but I lean towards 'i was sitting over on the bench' for him. He was so busy Staying In His Lane that he simply did not notice that this was happening. 'Uh, congrats, I guess?'

Bruce was keeping tabs on the situation. He does not plan to review the footage either. He has ten more gray hairs than he did yesterday, and is pondering how their relationship might affect their performance in the field, but trusts that Tim has likely thought through the ramifications and likely scenarios that should need to be compensated for. (Being involved with your teammate can be frightening and stressful; it could lead to strain between the two of you, and opens new vulnerabilities up for exploitation. But it can also be deeply, deeply rewarding. Hm.) (also shout-out to the one commenter who theorized that Bruce was the one on the other end of the phone call that Jason yanked the cord on. LMAO. ROFL, even.)

Alfred defuses the tension in the cave by reminding everyone to please finish their reports, and that there are refreshments in the dining room upstairs when they are finished, should anyone be joining the household for dinner tonight. He is very pointedly looking at Jason and Tim when he says this, because they Will be joining the household for dinner tonight, because it is the duty and privilege of a grandfather to tease his grandson (Jason) for having a boyfriend (Tim). Idk if Alfred called it in quite the same way as Cass, but he knew there was something interpersonal they needed to work out, and also that Tim has had a crush on Robin for his Entire Life, so he's not exactly surprised.

...aaaand sorry if I skipped anyone, but that's my list lol

#jaytim #me: oh boy I don't really know what ti think about that!#also me: heres a list detailing precisely what i think about that #<333 #🍷💥 anon #secretary au is so fun lol #but they really should have known something was up when nobody else stuck their noses in it #asked and answered #COMPLETELY BLEW PAST YOUR OWN SPECULATIONS OMFG. WAUGH #those are all so good lmaooo #i do love chessmaster alfred tho because he is a common secret keeper between them hehehe #in other aus jason and tim seperately going to alfred and being given advice re: each other is something so special to me #and yes. Bruce Does Not See It

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