#i dont even know what transandrophobia is...

[rice-enjoyer]

It is deeply irresponsible of you to promote the neurodiversity movement. The founder of the movement - a certain Japanese “Baedell” trans woman (one of those denyers of transandrophobia) named Kasaine - is a petulant destructive asshole who has torn apart numerous autism conferences, alleged murder and anti-epileptic or anti Asian sentiment or whatever simply for conferences refusing to browbeat a severely autistic nonverbal young man into turning off his flash camera. (Never mind that she could have just you know looked away.) I have spoken to countless Blacks, Asians, Hispanics, American Indians and others who also disagree with Kassaines utter petulance, as well as that of those like Amanda Baggs (a blatant faker/liar who I refuse to call by her “trans name” but you might know her as Mel.) She was also making the patently false claim that she had Rett syndrome. She also is deeply anti-physical disability, believes the abled can be cripples and believes that there is no difference between any disorder that affects the brain. I tried talking to @chavisory about this and she sent me to your blog, let her explain her deep deep misconceptions.

HUH????

[canidaezy]

how do transmascs not want to kill themselves all the time honestly

[wp-blaze]

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[aropride]

if u can't hear trans men talk abt how we are affected by transphobia without deciding that means we automatically hate trans women i think you're actually operating under levels of brainrot incomprehensible to anyone who talks to other queer people in real life

[susspirria]

Idk i just wish certain people on trans twitter or wherever would just call out someone specifically when they think a transmasc is being transmisogynistic or even just an asshole instead of generalizing it as a problem with every transmasc plz and thank you

[just-your-average-tangerine]

I am, once again, amused by how much transphobia against trans men from within the queer community is based in denying our transness while simultaneously using our agab against us.

[meatspeak]

some of you people are very weird to trans men and transmascs and “theyfabs” and it makes me really sad

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[puppygirldanhowell]

oh you believe trans men suffer from issues specific to them being trans men.... that must mean you hate all trans women and want them to die and also kill yourself.. no i wont listen to what you have to say ive already made my mind up.... disgusting faggot male... im so much better than terfs

[thereisnofood]

hey idk if u know or if it bothers you but msogyny doesn't object to people having ageplay or incest fetishes

anon i know exactly what youre talking about and i really dont think its any of my business like i have the person with these fetishes blocked but its like. if youre insinuating i should unfollow msogyny for being kind of tangentially related to this its a little late i already bought 2 of her shirts and plan on buying more 🤷 sorry ig

[genderkoolaid]

something ive noticed as a very effeminate trans masc that dresses pretty androgynous & has been on hrt for many years is that the status of being a "dangerous man" can and will be placed on you (ime most often by cis white women) whenever expressing any kind of negative feelings. if i told friends of mine - even queer ones - that something they did hurt my feelings or made me upset, i was suddenly a dangerous man or a (man)ipulator or whatever - even if i didn't raise my voice. the very fact that i am unhappy combined with my proximity to manhood makes me a supposed threat in their eyes.

a couple years ago i had a group of cis girl friends. they would constantly pull me into women's bathrooms n such so i wouldn't be left behind saying its fine its fine bc im one of the girls (gender neutral) but then as soon as i was upset about something i was suddenly a dangerous man who needed to stay out of women's spaces,,,, despite the fact that of the 4 of us, the girl who joined after me was the one spreading this shit around my friend group so... how was i encroaching on womens spaces if i was there before her and i was invited in? luckily one of my friends told me that the other two were plotting to kick me out of my friend group on the sole basis of my proximity to manhood so i at least knew why they were suddenly treating me like shit

its just.. i cant understand why people dont think trans mascs and trans men are discriminated against when they literally said it was my "toxic man energy" that made them want me out WHILE ALSO being the ones convincing me to go into womens spaces bc they wanted to go somewhere and didnt wanna have to leave me behind & like i said im extremely effeminate and faggy and also NONBINARY so i dont understand what "man energy" they were talking about other than the fact that im on testosterone and thinking testosterone = man is just transphobic no matter how you try to twist it

but my taking testosterone was never a problem or made me evil or scary when they wanted me to go with them into women-only (&nonbinary too i guess unless youre amab (and they can tell) or been on testosterone for too long) spaces, it was only a problem when they wanted 1. a reason to criticise me relentlessly, borderline bullying or 2. a reason to dismiss any of my concerns or criticisms of their treatment of me

all of that, to me, is transandrophobia point blank. i dont know what else you could call it other than transphobia, but transphobia doesn't address any of the very blatant and obvious connection of how my transness affects their perception of my proximity to manhood and how that affected the situation

God that sucks. I'm sorry you went through that.

You make a very good point. This is why I don't want to define transandrophobia/ATM as just transphobia and misogyny directed at transmascs. I still think transunity theory is a really valuable way of looking at transphobia & its important to me that we are vocal about how masculine tropes are weaponized against trans people by cis people on the regular because of how we are positioned in relation to gender. Too many people think the that the only thing wrong with saying trans people have "dangerous male energy" is that its misgendering. So trans people who choose to associate themselves with manhood are left in the trash by the people who should know best how much being made out to be a Dangerous Male Invader hurts!

[gayhenrycreel]

this might sound bad but i never fully believed somertons suicide note.

he lied so much that i dont know whether or not to believe ANYTHING he said. of course i was concerned when he posted that note. something like that should always be taken seriously.

but... then his alt accounts were found. that bitch was just trying to accuse hbomb of murder.

we cant believe a word somerton says. any of it could be a lie. he made up such ridiculous lies, with no reason behind them. he just lies for no reason. this means nothing can be trusted.

im not sure about this but... is somerton even really gay?

hes very homophobic isnt he? what if hes actually an extremely dedicated homophobe, using his offensive lies to feed his young queer viewers homophobia. if he is gay, he could still be doing this with transphobia, aphobia, etc.

he might've been trying to divide the queer community.

i would not be surprised if he had something to do with tumblr excusionism. think about it. most tumblr users are queer, and his audience is mostly queer. statistically a lot of his viewers would have been on tumblr.

it would not surprise me if his viewers picked up aphobia from somerton, and brought it to tumblr.

what if the misogyny and transandrophobia right now comes from his victims?

this is bordering on conspiracy theory, but can we ever really know for sure?

[spacelazarwolf]

i just keep thinking abt how that guy said "its transphobia and misogyny. let your experiences unite you with cis women, trans women, and enbies, not separate you"

and like idk its like we can't use transmisndry/transandrophobia/atm/etc bc its transmisogynistic. but we also cant use transmisogyny bc thats only for trans fems and trans women. but we cant use misogyny either bc we're not women. like you said it doesnt matter what word(s) we use or even if we don't use any words at all, they still get mad at us.

but also, why does us trying to give a name to our experiences separate us from those groups? all of those groups can experience atm in various ways. why is it that using the term transmisogyny does not separate trans fems from those groups? why does using the term exorsexism does not separate enbies from that group? (assuming these people even agree exorsexism exists, some of them dont)

and the assumption that all of those identities listed are completely separate really bothers me. all of those can and do overlap. how can i as a transfemmasc multigender enby, separate myself from those groups by describing some of my experiences, when i AM those groups?

(im not going to even bother with the fact that cis men weren't included, we already know why)

imo it's because the idea that women (and people they can group in with women) forming separatist groups and separating themselves from MenTM is actually feminist and girlboss and just Protecting Them From Their Oppressors, whereas any other group doing it (not even just men as a group, but i see this shit happen to jews, black people, indigenous people, people with closed practices, etc.) is just trying to make themselves feel special or they think they're better than everyone else. also people just still straight up do not believe trans men are oppressed.

also it's particularly hilarious bc like. so much conversation around anti transmasculinity is about the fact we share a lot of experiences with both cis women and trans women. i can't tell you how many butch cis women, intersex people, and trans women and femmes have expressed to me that they have experienced something similar to what i describe in my posts. and the thing is, we have been talking about this kind of thing in queer circles for forever. we've talked about how butches are demonized because of their masculinity, we've talked about how trans women are forced to present as feminine as possible so as not to be seen as a threat, we've talked about how nonbinary people who were assigned male at birth and choose to present more masculine are demonized and stripped of their identity. but putting a name to it means there's a systemic problem in our community, not just Problematic Individuals Who Are Bad Who Are Totally Not Us So We Don't Need To Unpack Any Of Our Biases Uwu.

[gamblegun]

i only see one person throwing a tantrum here lol. people saying “these terms are problematic” is not people saying “transmascs dont face any discrimination and should shut up”. we aren’t against the term “transandrophobia” because we haven’t thought much about it, it’s because we have a better understanding of feminism than you do

It's my policy to block all anon hate, but I'll let this one slide for now. I don't know how to break this to you, but "transmascs don't face any oppression and should shut up" is a sentiment I see near constantly, it's screamed at me through anon hate and comments on posts! It's non stop! No matter how nice I am! I blocked friends because they kept saying almost those exact words. I honestly don't know what rock you've been living under.

Besides I feel like you're purposely misconstruing my point. I'm saying even IF you are correct, the way people are going about talking about transandrophobia is cruel, and that's unproductive if you actually want to sway people to stop using it. All the things I cited in my post are extremely common things I see said about it, and what callous posts seem to be saying to us. Even you, just now, have sent me a condescending post, dismissing my concerns and saying you just "understand feminism better than I do." You didn't even engage with what I was saying. "People are being mean about this, and that's going to entrench people further in their postions. Are you sure you're not hurting people for the sake of it?" And you said, "People aren't saying transmascs aren't oppressed! You're just stupid and problematic!" Please. I'm going to be honest, I just feel like you want an enemy you can feel good about fighting, and I refuse. I'm tired of being people's punching bag. Transmascs aren't going to listen to you if you talk down to them and deny their concerns. Most of us actually have some self respect, you know.

[gandalfsbignaturals]

That post about tme/tma was pretty funny to read as I have as a trans man experienced trans misogyny multiple times. I have a man’s name and dress in men’s clothes and multiple times people have thought I am a trans woman who I guess is mid social transition or smth? Idk man its weird. I think its valuable to talk about different experiences with transphobia within the trans/lgbt community and outside of it but i guess its easy to forget how varied the trans experience can be. Also why is there no term for the transphobia fuelled misogyny trans men face? As a trans man i feel like i can’t escape misogyny even from people who accent me as a man. Misogyny is also often the first punishment and slap in the face against me by transphobes. They rarely say anything about me being trans but just talking sexist shit?

see, thats another thing about transmisogyny that i think a lot of people forget. its not separate from misogyny and transphobia, it is the intersection of those two. so, if someone is both transphobic and misogynist, anybody who they think looks trans and they think looks like a woman is a potential target.

this actually includes, like, a lot of trans men, because 99% of these bigots dont actually care to learn a single thing about trans people. they often literally do not know enough about trans-ness to tell the difference between a trans man and a trans woman. they see someone who looks like theyre doing gender wrong, and they floor it, and anyone who doesnt conform enough can be caught in the crossfire.

additionally, trans men dont get to opt out of misogyny when they start transitioning. many trans men struggle to pass as men, because gender is a tricky thing. and if you dont pass as a man, or if you dont have your legal name changed, or if you dont have your gender marker changed, then anybody could still decide that youre a woman and treat you accordingly. trans men experience misogyny just as much as trans women do, and because they are also trans, they often fall victim to the same structures that cause transmisogyny.

trans men have actually tried a few times to coin words to describe these unique intersectional experiences, similar to the reason transmisogyny was coined, but everytime they have faced pushback from the community, and especially from trans women. transmisandry and transandrophobia are both words that trans men have tried to coin to describe their experiences, and theyve been so thoroughly ridiculed for it that ive seen trans women go around calling people "transandrophobia truthers." these words that trans men have tried to define for themselves have become jokes in the mouths of those who should be their allies.

this is another reason why i am so against tme/tma as labels. if we exclude trans men from being able to be victims of transmisogyny, but we also deny them the words they need to talk about their own unique intersectional experiences of oppression, then we are essentially saying we dont care about those experiences. we are silencing them the same way we have been silenced for years.

thats why im so gungho about trans unity. yes, our experiences are different, but the structures and the people oppressing us are the same. we are not enemies, and if we paint each other as enemies, if we try to silence each other, if we continue to squabble amongst ourselves and focus on what divides us instead of what brings us together...

we are doing the fascists' work for them, and our communities will crumble to dust.

i dont want to live in a world where im enemies with my trans masc brothers. i dont want to live in a world where finding common ground between us is seen as wrong. we have to stick together if we want to survive, but moreover, we have to stick together if we want to thrive. trans men, trans women, and every other flavor of trans people under the sun all enrich the queer experience. it is a beautiful, profound thing to reject ones nature and find belonging with the othered. to sully that beauty with the blood of our allies is to invite the end.

[triple-a-aro]

thanks for turning on anon asks!! i dont want to get this linked back to my actual account where i try to keep things pretty discourse-free. what i wanted to say is that i really get where yr coming from with the falling into transmasc vs transfem thing??? i find myself going oh no thats a trans woman so shes not gonna like me a lot and then i feel really guilty abt it so its good to know that other transandro bloggers are aware of that whole thing. how do you keep yrself from falling into those thinking patterns?

No problem at all, anon! I understand that this can be a topic that you don't necessarily want. attention. on you. Perfectly valid to keep yourself safe.

This touches on something that I've been realizing more often for myself, though! When you are educating yourself on topics such as transandrophobia, the loud and vocal minority of transandrophobes are likely to speak up in comments and replies of posts doing so, which makes it seem like they're everywhere. Much like vocal transphobes, we must remember that this is a minority; most people may not have even heard of transandrophobia, but I'm sure they'd agree that "trans men experience oppression for being trans men that other trans people don't experience". Because that's common sense.

The other reason I find myself falling into that pattern is the centering of trans women in these transandrophobia discussions. A lot of it ends up with people arguing if transmisogyny is worse or not, and I think that misses the entire point. But if you see these transandrophobes going on and on about trans women having it worse (and some of those people being trans women themselves who are lashing out for whichever reason), you're going to start connecting transandrophobia and trans women.

Which sucks. It really fucking does. The brain is equipped to notice patterns, and it's going to emphasize in accordance to how transandrophobes emphasize.

So how do I personally stop this from happening?

I follow trans women. Feels like a no-brainer, right? But recently I realized I was not following any trans education that was run by trans women, mostly because I had been scared of researching into the blogs themselves in case I found bigotry towards trans men, and I am not in the business of digital self-harm. If anyone has any good blogs feel free to drop them here, and I'll reblog!

If I feel myself getting incensed, I step back If you find yourself getting really mad, step back and ask yourself: - Where is this anger coming from? (At transphobia or has it been construed somehow?) - Where is this anger directed? (At transandrophobes, or at trans women?) - Who has posted this? (TERF psyops do exist, and if a blog is posting inflammatory content, they might be baiting you) - Is this user in the same circle as other transandrophobes? (There was a ring of particularly nasty transandrophobes that I blocked for mocking trans men and suggesting corrective sexual assault, and I have not found as many since)

Go to irl queer spaces. While this is not going to be a solution for everyone, I find stepping offline and talking to irl trans women is beneficial. Make friends with trans people! This discourse is so terminally online, and the only reason I participate in it is because I do what I can irl and therefore my only contribution is not arguing over discourse.

I also interact with other trans men who are normal about trans women as well. I hope this helps! Media literacy is good to practice, and I'm proud of you for owning up to something very hard, anon.

If we have any other suggestions, pop 'em down in the replies or reblogs!

[nothorses]

im starting to realize that (maybe?) i have found myself in a circle of blogs with neo-baeddel beliefs? im tramsmasc, and ive always found the tme/tma thing a bit Icky for a lot of the reasons you’ve mentioned in posts. and now i feel like if i become a “””transandrophobia truther””” i will be perceived as anti-transfem/trans woman - which to be very clear, i am not. and at the end of the day it really seems like unnecessary in-fighting. i have a lot more feelings about this but i dont wanna take up your time. idk i just wanted to get this off my chest cause i am Confused and feel like a bad person just for being transmasc?

I'm really sorry you're feeling that way! Nobody should be made to feel bad or wrong because of their identity.

I think it's important to ask whether the things we're doing are harming others, and to be open to receiving criticism. I say that because I think it's important that we consider ourselves fallible, and always growing, and that we look to the people around us to challenge us and help us do that.

We should also feel comfortable answering those questions, and recognizing when criticism isn't really productive, too. If you feel like you don't have the space to disagree with someone else on something like that, especially if you cannot imagine a situation where disagreeing would be warranted, that's a sign that you're lacking some essential trust in your relationship with yourself.

And I want to touch on some language you're using as well; you use the word "perceived", but then assert that you aren't "anti-transfem/trans women". It feels to me like you know you're not actually what people might perceive you as, that you wouldn't be even if you discussed your ideas openly, and your worry is in how other people see you. What I wonder here is: which is more important? What can you actually control?

You are a living, breathing, growing human. You are going to make mistakes. You are going to do and say the wrong thing, and you are going to look like an asshole sometimes. That doesn't make you a bad person, and it sounds like you already know that! Trust that you are trying, and surround yourself with people who trust that you're trying, too.

If you feel like the people around you don't and won't trust that you're trying, or like that trust hinges on your complete and total agreement with their beliefs- if you feel like you can't have these conversations with them in the first place- then I would seriously consider getting the hell out of there, regardless of what those specific beliefs are.

[faggy--butch]

one day can we talk about how a lot of the lateral aggression from some transfems to transmascs is rooted in normal cissexist structures. did i make sense? like they transition but dont unlearn the misogyny they've been taught since forever and then immediately take it out on the weird little girls they've been primed to take misogyny out on since forever. And who have also been primed to just take the misogyny. Probably without realising it. And ik it goes both ways so on so forth etc etc. But damn.

*nb4 'male socialization is transphobic' i didnt say that, you're a fool if you think anyone doesn't have learned misogyny. what i am saying is that no where on tumblr do i see unlearning your misogyny get talked about by the kinda people who've decided to coin "transandrobro." you know.

yeah I mean everyone has internalized misogyny, it comes free with being raised in a misogynistic society. Not only that but it's acceptable and even encourage among women to hate men, to really just revile dudes.

So I think that on one hand trans men are expected to get over it as quickly as humanly possible, to be the "right kind of man" while still having hang ups about men and women, femininity and masculinity, and trans women are expected to conform as quickly to cis womanhood as possible while still having hang ups on men and women, femininity and masculinity.

So you have people who lash out at men ( allowed) while having internalized misogyny ( haven't had the time to work through it yet) with people who know what misogyny is like and understand how women are spoken over, and that it's allowed to express hatred towards men. ( With the same kinds of internalized misogyny that probably hasn't been worked through yet) both of these parties are interchangeable.

It gives you trans men who are internalized misogynistic and also support the hatred of men by other trans people, and trans women who are welcome to bash men ( trans men) in a misogynistic way because of those prior hang ups.

This is why you see trans men accused of being "whiny" and "hysterical" and "just wanting to be special" when talking about transandrophobia and you get it from trans men and women. . Or the "womentm expect men to hold open the door for them" which is just come one, just regular (internalized) misogyny.

No one is allowed to work through their shit.

So no yeah it's not about "male socialization" or "female socialization" it's about interal biases that haven't been recognized and worked on by all parties involved,mixed with radical feminism fueling the fire to try and separate us.