#so many characters aren't even implied queer

[erigold13261]

Anon who can’t draw here. Why do you think NSR and Psyconauts characters all look so queer(affectionate) and attractive? (Attractive as in top tier character design) i would like an opinion of an artist

Love you!

Well it all depends on the person looking I would say. Someone who is a bigot and likes these games would deny that any of them look queer. Others might say a character is horribly drawn if they aren't sexualized. And then some people sees a "bad" character design (one that seems to be universally hated) and still love it to bits.

However, I do think that a large portion of the eccentric-ism of each game, in both design form and storytelling form, is a huge factor of why "less normal" people like these games (so people who aren't cishet or neurotypical). Both games really play with shapes and colors along with darker topics (even if it's just implied). So already there will be a disproportionate amount of "not normal" people already in these fandom spaces.

That alone counts for a large portion of people seeing these characters as queer, which can affect the media as a whole as people who look up fanart/fic of these games are now seeing more queer headcanons or art that shows off things they didn't realize were subtly implied or referenced to in the game.

But also, with in-game reasons, I would say Psychonauts having a canonically gay couple does help make other characters look queer, or at least accepting of queerness (which helps people see those characters as some flavor of queer even if it's not fully implied or something). Then there's the fact that those games talk about mental illness, healing, getting support from your family, love, all things that a lot of queer and neurodivergent people want in media without it being made a joke or villainized. (Plus the added angst is something that really helps people connect and possibly project onto characters).

Similar reasons for NSR, where the game kinda promotes shipping in the sense of Sayu talking about love and May with 1010 (and all the retweets and shares from Metronomik being cool with ships) so already there will be people who ship queer relationships, which then get promoted by the game company, leading people to see this as a soft canon. And even though I think Eve is the only confirmed queer person (She's demisexual, but correct me if i'm wrong about the others being or not confirmed) there are still a lot of queer coding in these characters (one being Neon afraid to dance/not liking his body and wanting to make 1010 look more masculine, which can be seen as trans-coded, at least to me).

The story itself of NSR is also something that resonates with queer and neurodivergent people. It is about overcoming an oppressor, making amends with friends and family, learning how to communicate, dealing with mental illness as well. The story itself is a big factor of people liking this game, since gameplay can be lacking at times. The characters have depth but also allow for a LOT of manipulation in their story and behavior as they are not as fleshed out compared to like Psychonaut characters.

I am starting to lose focus. I probably have more to say about NSR but I'm gonna go into the design/visuals for now.

Design wise, the characters are unique. Psychonauts plays around with shapes really well, especially when constructing hair and facial proportions. And NSR, though a bit standard in how it presents bodies, still has unique silhouettes and character designs (especially with DJ and Mama), not to mention the colors are vibrant and not natural (psychonauts tries to stick in a more "realistic" color palette at least in the real world but still plays around with their colors).

So like, the attractiveness/top teir character design, comes from strong and unique proportions along with cohesive color design. Shape theory is also a really good thing that goes into character design. Like my favorite thing about NSR is how physically different Eve is, even though she is a human (supposedly) she is built differently to show how she feels like an outcast. And then you have characters like Helmut who, even though still fits in with the rest of the cast, is extremely big but still shows off how soft he can be instead of being intimidating with his size (also love the fact that he's probably the biggest extrovert and still has anxiety/panic attacks).

Even just the color of the characters is important. 1010 have super bright and saturated colors to them, but only one color each and black and white covers most of their body to give breathing room to their designs. As Sayu's phases progress, more and more colors appear, but all the colors are complimenting each other instead of fighting for dominance.

Looking just at Helmut, both mental world and character design. Lots of colors and shapes are being used, but nothing is fighting for dominance a lot of the time. You are still able to see where you need to go most of the time in the game, and Helmut's design has a breathing room for the eyes to rest on (such as the black of his coat and his face area).

So yeah, the combination of character design (visual and vocal) and the story really are the main contributing factors for a lot of these characters being well liked and either queer-coded or canonically queer. Hopefully this made sense, I basically just woke up so yeah lol.

[tocomplainfriend]

I am mad

Yup!

Bro shut up, she is white - being Latina is not a race, is an not the same as color skin. And she is a second generation immigrant too. So like... this isn't like a Salvadorian person doing a cartoon, is a daughter of Salvadorians... That grew in the USA. Being Latino doesn't mean you aren't white, you can be any race and Latino. Still wouldn't make up for the lack of representation or the existing racism. In the piece of media that's "diverse".

Salvadorian is not a race, LMAO. That's crazy- you think someone from Argentina who is white, is not white cause of their nationality??? Being Latino and having that culture does not equal a race. It's in itself a racist thing. This Latino = Race is terrible, It also comes from the idea of the "You are not Latino because you are not brown", assuming all people from Latino America are brown by default. You know how much has that happen to me? -AND MANY OTHER PEOPLE.

(I'm Latino btw)

I already have an older post about it, but - you can really see the lack of diversity in the show a lot. (Will talk about it even more other day).

Again the main thing you get is MEN, hypersexual skinny queer men (cis). You won't get to see female characters being well written, thought all the season 1 and all the episodes we got rn of season 2. All characters are skinny and similar body types and repetitive design choices. Funny enough, shows that lack of human characters still have better race-coding that helluva. (and well in hazbin you'll get POC characters that are gray, lack all ethic features... even when they are humanoid. So that is great.)

Bro you could, you imagine a character being black and having different textured hair, and you go to hell... AND EVEN THO YOU ARE HUMANOID- your hair became straight and spiky, and you are now a light gray? If you build a world like that... it just seems like the perfect racist excuse to delete ethic features out a POC character because you don't want to draw them. "Not going to a single hint of their race/culture unless it revolves on their death"... If the character became a fucking coin with dot eyes, maybe (not really, shows with no human/humanoid characters still are capable to race-code their characters). But all of these characters are humanoid- why do none of them have their different characteristics? Also, this is about a real person in the real world choosing how to design a character.

This tweet also implies that a black character when they were a life they had ethic features, but lose them when they go to hell. Which is even more fucking stupid.

If a white person with straight hair goes to hell, and their hair remains straight (assuming it has nothing to do with their death), why wouldn't there be black people with textured hair? This is dumb. This goes back to the fucking thing of "No black people in fantasy media", In the same way, it's stupid for fantasy stories to revolve around white people characteristics in fictional species and people in that world- not including all the rest of diverse human characteristics POC people have it's crazy. The biggest problem here is why the fuck all Viv's sinners characters (main characters designed by her) that are supposed to black (or mixed like Alastor) have 0 characteristic. THEY ARE HUMANOID, THEY AREN'T EVEN ABSTRACT OR AN ANIMAL OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. She didn't want to draw that nor change designs, and wanted to justify the whole concept of Alastor even using Voodou.

HOW ARE ALL THE ANGELS THAT VIV WANTS TO BE BLACK (black voice actors specified, or are race specified) HAVE NOTHING??? LIKE HELLO THE 'I'm such a nice angel character girl' HAS SPIKY STRAIGHT HAIR??? SHE IS AN ANGEL AND BLACK, WHY DIDN'T YOU DID HER HAIR TO BE CLOUDS- It's THE EASIEST SHIT YOU COULD’VE DONE.

BOOM! A FUCKING TROLL FROM A KIDS MOVIE WITH DIFFERENT HAIR. BOOM! THE FUNK TROLLS ARE SO EXPLICITLY BLACK CODED.

---

-

Bro, you know this whole thing of people with textured hair have to forcefully straighten their hair or wear wogs to a job... because people consider it ""Unprofessional"" cause racism? The erasure and discrimination of POC people and their features is a problem. That's why it is important to people represent all of those things:

(Marvel's Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur)

The only reason of why Alas tor is even mixed is purely cause Viv used the Voodou symbols because she thought they were creepy and edgy. It's sucks that all the angels and sinners that are supposed to be black have nothing.

[pommedepersephone]

Buck up, Hamlet! or how Aziraphale and Crowley's blocking helps communicate the evolution of their relationship

Can we talk about the blocking?

Specifically, I have been rewatching S1E3, one of my favorites. I love how the development of the relationship between Aziraphale and Crowley is shown through these little vignettes. There have been some great explorations of the costuming and dialogue, but what always strikes me is the BLOCKING. The way their placement and movements add such depth and tell the story of living as a queer person, having to communicate in coded language.

Through the episode, we get 4500 years of history - Eden, Mesopotamia, Golgatha, Rome and Wessex - to see Aziraphale and Crowley standing on their opposite sides. Aziraphale always on the right, Crowley always on the left. But after the Arrangement, their blocking changes drastically and becomes much more fluid and nuanced. Each scene after this is distinct but the scenes in at the Globe and the Bastille have the most development, and I find myself rewatching them A LOT. Here is what I see. 

All the World's a Stage

This is the first meeting we see that isn’t a chance encounter, though the two try to stage it as such. It takes place in a theatre - and they are acting, playing their roles as demon and angel. Even the humans are complicit in this performance, with Shakespeare stepping in to address the two "in your roles as the audience." Oh, delicious.

But once it's been firmly established for anyone watching that they AREN'T friends, they DON'T know each other (cough cough) the following moves are clearly choreographed and have been played out many times before. Crowley sashays to the right, opening the dance, and Aziraphale accepts the invitation to dance with: “What do you want?” 

“Why ever would you insinuate that I might possibly want something?” Crowley is just playing his role as cheeky demon offering up a temptation - but his position to the right of Aziraphale speaks to the fact that they are both very complicit in this performance.

“You are up to no good.”  “Obviously. And you are up to good, I take it? Lots of good deeds?” Just standard character establishment, here.

“No rest for the, well, good." Ah, this line, the inversion of the well known idiom. Because the line between good and evil (and between angel and demon) maybe aren't so distinct, and Aziraphale acknowledges this with his words. We are moving into negotiations now. "I have to be in Edinburgh at the end of the week. A couple of blessings to do, and a minor miracle to perform. Apparently, I have to ride a horse.”

“Ah hard on the buttocks, horses. Major design flaw, if you ask me. I’m meant to be headed to Edinburgh too this week. Tempting a clan leader to steal some cattle.” The way Crowley moves AROUND Aziraphale here, intimate but also careful, watching for his reactions.

“Doesn’t sound like hard work.” Said with a little sideways look, because Aziraphale can see where this is going. And he's open to suggestion temptation.

“That was why I thought we should… well, bit of a waste of effort. Both of us going all the way to Scotland.”

“You cannot actually be suggesting what I infer you are implying?” A little bit of pretense, because Aziraphale has to pretend to be tempted, right?

Crowley presses. “Which is?” Because he is willing to play the part of tempting demon, but only if it is clear this is a farce, that this is indeed mutually agreeable. He is making sure they are doing the same dance.

"That one of us goes to Edinburgh and does... both. The blessing and the tempting."

Yes, they are doing the same dance, and what is left is the formality of concluding the dance - a moment of Aziraphale expressing his concern for Crowley, the coin toss - they both know how it ends. It's a ritual, an act of give and take.

But if it were ONLY the Arrangement, a simple quid pro quo, it would have ended there. It doesn't. Instead, the two offer each other a more intimate exchange - "It'd take a miracle to get people to come and see Hamlet."

Aziraphale doesn't even have to ask with words, just a look, and Crowley happily agrees. That is the final part of the dance, a small acknowledgement that this isn't just about making their jobs easier.

A Free Man in Paris

Paris is something else. This is a HUGE step beyond making sure that audiences like a show your angel is particularly fond of. This is a stolen dangerous moment, an OUTRAGEOUS flirtation that takes place outside of time, conducted in clear view of others but beyond their understanding. Isn’t that how their entire relationship is now conducted, hidden in plain view and so clearly affectionate? 

And look, Aziraphale is BITCHY in this scene. Peak That Bitch. He's just purchased a bookshop, he's creating a very permanent place for himself here on earth - Aziraphale is feeling quite proud of himself. In fact, he's preening a bit that he has figured out how to exist, even in some small limited way, as himself within the confines of the system of Heaven. Buuuut he may have gone just a bit too far, and gotten himself in a spot of trouble. He has landed in a prison, threatened with "death" and stuck because he's already gotten a warning about being frivolous with his miracles. Oh jolly good that Crowley is here to save the day!

There is something raw being communicated here here, where both Aziraphale and Crowley are presenting themselves to the world in ways that are dangerous. Aziraphale's reaction tells us that Crowley's look is doing things to him, but also in a way that it is NOT socially appropriate. Aziraphale may have showed up in all the trappings of an English aristocrat, but here is Crowley as a French royal sympathizer. NEITHER of these are safe choices in the middle of a revolution. The costuming is so critical to fully appreciating this scene, so check out the amazing clothing overview with @cobragardens.

When Crowley arrives and stops time, he and Aziraphale find themselves situated facing one another, but angled so they aren’t facing straight on. Interestingly, from Crowley’s perspective, he is where he is supposed to be - the left of Aziraphale. But Aziraphale, from his perspective, is also to the left of Crowley. It was Aziraphale after all who initiated this situation, who put himself in danger by being too… Aziraphale. It’s dangerous to be yourself when you don’t fit into heteronormative social expectations, isn’t it? Still, the two keep up a very flirtatious banter as they discuss the situation, and Crowley maintains his very-intentionally-unbothered sitting position up until Aziraphale goes too far and thanks him for coming to his rescue.

While Crowley is also flirting with danger in the way he is dressed, he also didn't just pop over for a nibble dressed this way. And whatever he might have been up to was interrupted so he could rescue Aziraphale from the consequences of his own reckless authenticity. After removing the chains, Crowley pushes Aziraphale to reconsider his honest expression of himself in this exact place and time - for the sake of survival.

Aziraphale, willing to risk himself alone, rather quickly adopts a more acceptable appearance when it might impact Crowley. It is only after Aziraphale is safely disguised and returned to his proper place to the right of Crowley, ONLY then does Crowley restart time. They can go enjoy lunch now, with the proper precautions and masks in place.

For these two particular human-coded occult beings, this is also such an honest moment. They both showed up damn authentically - Aziraphale so fabulously ostentatious, focused on chasing down some pleasure (in this crepes) and Crowley wrapped in a clear protest against the current violence. Just as Aziraphale indicated with his "Oh good LORD" as he looked the demon up and down with obvious thirst, Crowley's request to Aziraphale to change his appearance and mask better is done in such a way that affirms that Crowley LIKES who Aziraphale is without the mask.

The scene is so playful on the surface, the body language and dialogue flirtatious. It's something so familiar to the queer experience, making light of the absolute danger that we must sometimes navigate just to exist. The more I watch it, the more obsessed I become.

A Spot of Bodysnatchin'

It is worth remembering that we didn't get this scene in S1.

I am going to go through it soon, because again they dance back and forth beautifully in this minisode, but suffice to say we all know... it didn't end well for Crowley.

No Walk in the Park

The moment in St. James Park is brief, and it wasn't until S2 and the meeting at Edinburgh that we got the full context for this meeting. But even without this, we can clearly see that things are weighing heavily on Crowley. The scene in the Bastille took place in a prison, with the threat of execution over their heads. The juxtaposition of this conversation taking place in a park - a place that is not only NOT inherently dangerous but looks lovely and welcoming - only highlights the change in Crowley's attitude. He still attempts to be playful, but he's afraid. Look at that paper, it's a bit crumpled, he's been carrying it around for a while.

They are firmly entrenched on their assigned sides for the entire conversation, both very stiff. It feels uncomfortable to watch. When Aziraphale refuses his request, and indicates whatever is between them is just "fraternizing" with the enemy, we get a glimpse of how fearful Crowley really is. In none of these flashbacks has Crowley ever spoken to Aziraphale with the anger we see here. When they part in anger, it feels wrong.

Take Me to Church

So there is a long break between meetings now. But then, ah, the church. The place Aziraphale realizes his feelings. (Look, if Michael says this is where Aziraphale realized he'd fallen in love, I am not here to argue.) What I love is that again we see Crowley and Aziraphale swapping sides. Crowley is here to save his wayward angel, AGAIN. Despite feeling the ill effects of walking on consecrated ground, Crowley is here to save his angel and defeat Nazis. It's definitely not remotely evil intentions.

It isn't like the Bastille, but some of the parallels exist - Aziraphale failing to grasp the risks of his actions. And the silliness of his little dance coupled with just how deadly serious this situation is harks back to their flirtations in the prison.

Crowley is to the right of Aziraphale from the time he arrives until the bomb drops. Then in the rubble, with the danger past, we see them on their assigned sides again. UNTIL Crowley hands Aziraphale the books he saved with a "little demonic miracle of my own." He then crosses Aziraphale, and we see the look of absolute adoration as the angel watches him walk away to the right.

Sweeeeeet baby Jesus, baby girl has it BAD.

Always Crashing in the Same Car

This extremely heartbreaking scene has been dissected, chewed over, breaking our little hearts with it's sharp pieces.

But it is purposeful that this scene took place in the Bentley. Being in the car is symbolic because Aziraphale is here making an offering to Crowley, in his space, something that he Aziraphale feels is WRONG which is highlighted by his placement to the left of Crowley. He is scared, acting against all his own desires, but he does it anyway because he cares for Crowley. It's simple, powerful placement. Need to hurt more? Yeah, thought so. Take a deeper look at the dialogue with @zionworkzs.

[genericpuff]

(disclaimer, this is coming from a heartstopper fan! i love heartstopper this is not hate!!)

i think at least part of the annoyance with heartstopper isn't just that isn't a light fluffy ya series, it's also that its another example of how the queer media that gets the most mainstream attention tends to be this kind of light fluffy ya stuff that focuses on two conventially attractive queer boys or men and it also tends to be written by people who aren't queer men on top of that, so not only can it feel very samey but it can feel like other queer people are relegated to side characters in the stories of cis gay men. and as someone who loves heartstopper i get that on some level.

btw by "written by people who aren't queer men" NOT saying that isn't not written by queer people. alice oseman is genderfluid and aroace, becky albertalli is bisexual, etc. and while i think the point is still valid there is a misogyny element in that a lot of the focus is put on things that are written by women or people they perceive as women while tumblr darlings like good omens and ofmd (written by presumably straight men) don't get the same treatment.

nah y'know what, that's fair, I can get how frustrating it can be for a lot of popular queer stories to feel samey, I've definitely gotten BL-fatigue in the past on platforms like WT and Tapas because many of them ARE the same and feel like they're just piggybacking off trends for the sake of clout (and this is a problem in the heterocis romance stories too, don't get me fucking started on how dark romance has turned into torture porn where vulnerable women are constantly being victimized by rich powerful men and we're just supposed to root for that ??), but it's one of those things where like, what might be seen as just more corny shit could very well be the revelation another person needs that they're gay / trans / etc. that the story helped them realize. there's just a point where i see these arguments against cheesy popular queer stories that teeter dangerously close to being queerphobic and, as you said, misogynist, simply because "it was written by someone who i perceive as a woman so that makes it BAD!"

and I didn't mention it in the original post because I didn't want to @ OP in any way but in the comment section they literally said "i dont think heartstopper itself is all that bad but it has pretty much aimed the direction of all mainstream gay comics towards wholesomeness instead of anything more interesting so i want to destroy heartstopper to destroy heartstopper clones" and that gives me massive ick because it implies their sole reasoning for including it was "chill and happy queer stories bad, if a character doesn't suffer enough then they're not interesting"?? why can't LGBTQ+ audiences have more 'vanilla' stories that aren't all sad and angsty all the time? are we not entitled to the same corny romcom vanilla shit that the heterocis are entitled to? why do LGBTQ+ characters - and by extension, people - have to suffer to qualify as being 'interesting'? You're already interesting, you're you! like i'm sorry, are we trying to scare people straight??? 😭 shit, that's even a plot point that's touched on in Heartstopper itself where Nick is questioning his sexuality and he starts googling shit and it's just ALL the terrifying news stories of queer kids being ostracized / bullied / murdered / etc. and as much as it's important to be aware of the ongoing issues so we can keep fighting for our rights, we ALSO need to find balance and remember to celebrate the stories that AREN'T that because we need something to be hopeful for, something we can find peace in. I don't think Heartstopper is some deeply profound piece of work, but it also doesn't seem like it's trying to be? It's a low stakes celebration of the LGBTQ+ experience that's very warm and comforting, especially for those who are the same ages as the main characters who are often being persuaded by the grown-ups around them that it's a death sentence to be gay / trans / etc.

and it's not like we HAVEN'T had popular pieces of queer representative media that explored things outside of cheesy BL, like are we forgetting about Nimona which explored both the gay and genderfluid experience in a very accessible and fun way while still being mature and not pandering to its audience over how society has made monsters out of queer people?

(and even then I'm sure there are folks who would argue "actually, here are the issues with Nimona" , and that's fine tbh, we can like media and appreciate what it brings to the table while also discussing what it lacks in, such as what we're doing now with Heartstopper! progress is a never-ending journey!!)

and also okay, not me trying to be argumentative in the slightest BUT I don't really get the argument that 'other queer people' are being sidelined for the main characters? unless there's something I'm missing here lol (I will apologize for that because it's admittedly been a while since I've re-read Heartstopper so I should probably go do that to refresh myself on it). like i say that in the sense that Heartstopper is clearly meant to be about two gay male teenagers. just like how Nimona is about a shapeshifter who is not a girl or a boy (they're Nimona!) and a gay man who are both trying to change the system that's other'd them for years for the better. that is the story Heartstopper is trying to tell and it achieves that. it also has a trans character plotline that I could see people arguing feels sidelined but I think there's a massive difference between 'sidelining' and just having a B plot ? my honest take with that is not every piece of representative media is going to be able to cover every single topic, it's just not doable for one piece of media to be a monolith for everything, the same as how one person can't be a monolith for an entire community of people. BUT that doesn't mean works like Heartstopper and Nimona can't inspire others to also lend their voices into the medium and create that representation that's needed. That's why we need ✨variety✨ and Heartstopper is part of that variety by offering a more vanilla cutesy story full of good vibes for people who want that sort of thing.

IDK, I think there's just a lot of nuance that's being missed in that poll, and in the difference between Heartstopper inspiring more people to write happy cozy BL stories vs. implying that it's had an actual negative influence on modern art and media in the same way that series like Homestuck and LO have to the point that people think it needs to be destroyed, like wtf LOL Like they're not even comparable IMO and a lot of the arguments I see people making about why it is just feel a little backwards, and those arguments obfuscate the real issue which is just "popular thing is popular and people like to piggyback off popular shit". That's a fact for basically any niche and genre, these trends come and go. Even if the whole cutesy BL trend passes one day (which it will) it'll be replaced by something else that people will also inevitably find samey and boring after a while. This is not a concept that's unique to LGBTQ+ media, it's universal.

Balance is important and I think finding that balance is as much a responsibility on the shoulders of the consumer as it is on the creator. And I don't think Heartstopper deserves to be put into the same camp as stories like LO which literally straightwashes its canonically queer characters and gives those queer identities to nothingburger characters who are easy to shoo out of the plot to make way for the heterocis ones (while still parading itself around like it's actually 'queer rep' which... it really isn't.) Like all three of the comics in that poll are vastly different, serving different audiences, with different goals and intentions. It's comparing apples to oranges to pineapples.

The worst Heartstopper has to offer is just a low stakes plot that might not appeal to everyone or feel 'samey' which yeah, valid, but in the grander sense of whether or not it's had a negative effect on queer media just for being... cheesy? And inspiring other people to write stories like it? I don't get the argument, it feels like it's severely missing the point of what we're fighting for here - to live happy little unbothered lives - but that's just me ╮(￣ω￣;)╭ I'm definitely not trying to be a dick about it in any way and I don't want anyone to think I'm not open to the opposing points here, I do agree with you on the oversaturation of samey BL stories, but it just rose some massive red flags to see Heartstopper next to frigging Homestuck and Lore Olympus LOL

[always---wrong]

Okay, so I wanted to discuss the situation with Alastor, his canonical sexuality, and fans.

I have seen the two sides alot.

So one side ships Al with numerous characters and sees this as casual fun.

And the other thinks this is disrespectful cause he is ace, or Aroace.

(I believe that he is Aroace. His va said so, his character has shown no interest in romance, and Viv may have confirmed it at some point)

Now, I am sex repulsed ace and I'm aro. And I have strong opinions. Alastor is my favorite character in Hazbin Hotel, he is also the FIRST confirmed ace character I've seen. (This doesn't include subtly implied characters) Because Al is the first and I care for him he is very important to me.

My opinion is really mixed because on one side it's; yeah, it is a fandom, and fandoms ship. It's what they do. Its also kind a rude to judge someone for their favorite pairings and stuff, in my opinion.

On the other side though I'm hurt. I am a queer person with basically no rep. And I hadn't realized how upset I was by this until I saw discourse over this character. I had FORGOTTEN that it was possible to have confirmed canonical ace characters. I had gotten so used to that just being a head cannon. And not only just an ace character but also an Aroace character. And not just that but a seemingly non sex favorable ace character. I would even argue he is sex repulsed.

My real problem with all this is:

Yes, I KNOW ace characters can have sex. But do you know who else can? Literally every single allosexual character. I KNOW aros can date. But you know who else can? Everyone else. The appeal of ACTUALLY having characters with the same sexuality as me is that they would be like me. Cause I and other aces like me never, ever get stories like that. So many times in media I would be enjoying a character who had shown NO interest in sex/romance and would suddenly be partnered up with another just for the heck of it. This has happened SO many times it's not even funny. It's incredibly frustrating.

So, the point I'm trying to make is that; YES, there are aces who have sex. HOWEVER, a large number of us do not. And it's like everyone forgets that. Your not writing Alastor having sex with Angel cause your showing the vast spectrum of asexuality. Your most likely writing it cause it's sex between two hot characters. It's simply maddening.

(One thing I wanted to say was, despite the fact that Al is ace i don't think it's bad to find him attractive. He is very pleasing to look at so I understand allos finding him hot. However I'm not sure where I stand with people sexualizing him. I think I'm leaning towards, 'please don't do it'.)

Now, the worst thing though is when I'm looking for content to enjoy. When I found out Al was canonically ace I was so happy and excited. I'm pretty sure this situation wouldn't make me nearly as frustrated if it weren't for the overwhelming amount of sexual content for Al. Some would be fine. I could just scroll past it if this were the case. But it is not. Content for Al is MOSTLY sexual. That's why I don't believe people when they keep saying they aren't invalidating aces because almost every time I go looking for a fic I have to scroll for HOURS just to find few non ship fics.

I can't even use the Asexual Alastor tag because all that does is bring me to a bunch of fics where the author is like 'he's ace trust me,' then proceeds to write smut.

Why can't I even use a tag made for aces without being drowned in smut. It's so frustrating! Like I'm getting to a point where I wish the authors would stop using the tag and openly admit they made him not ace for the story. Like I know your trying to not throw away his canonical sexuality but I mean at this point I think it'd be better if you did. And if someone is going to write sex favorable ace Al then please leave it to the aces. I trust us to at least weave it into his character instead of stating it and acting like it's there when it's not.

So basically: I don't mind if you ship him, just don't say he's ace or Aroace if your neither of those in ship/smut content. I'm sick of trying to find content that isn't sex/romance in Aroace tags!

I don't want to judge people for liking a ship. But I'm really tired.

ON A DIFFERENT NOTE, I would love to see content with Al and Lucifer. Like them hating each other to like frenemies. It would be so funny.

Anyone have any platonic content with Al and the rest of the cast???

[local-queer-disappointment]

Fuck's a pro shipper?

We've got a new one boys try not to scare em off /j

Okay but seriously, I'm more than happy to explain. I assume that if you're asking this question you're not aware of the proshipper vs antishipper, uh, "conflict", I guess. So, here is what both of those terms mean, to the best of my descriptive abilities:

Antishipper (often just "anti"): someone who vaguely believes that consuming problematic fiction (usually specifically problematic sexual fiction like lolicon or incest) is either a true reflection of them as a person or a corrupting force that will cause them to play out these desires in real life, onto real people. Basically, if you read age gap, you touch real kids in real life or secretly want to.

Proshipper (sometimes "profic"): someone who does not believe the above, and believes that fiction is not the same as reality because it doesn't harm anyone and therefore people should be left alone as long as you have no reason to believe that they would ever do something like that irl. Often hand in hand with things like anti censorship, kink positive, etc, though being a proshipper does not necessarily mean you have a problematic ship or kink yourself (example: me).

You're probably asking this question because you saw me day in my bio that I am a proshipper. I've tried to stay neutral in this initial description, but obviously I probably didn't manage to be completely unbiased considering that I believe myself to be right (most people do) so if you want to ask further questions after this that's perfectly fine. That being said:

Why am I a proshipper?

So, to understand this, let's first look over the issues within both communities— every group has issues, after all.

What problems do proshippers have?:

- sometimes 4chan assholes co-opt the label "proshipper" just because they're lolicons, even though there's good evidence to suggest that they would do or even have done criminal sexual acts in real life, or that they possess actual csam (child sexual abuse material, a term being used in favor of "cp" these days as porn implies consent). Proshipping has nothing to do with the harmful idea that you should be allowed to exploit and abuse real children.

- there are still many gray areas which proshippers themselves don't agree on. For example: I've seen a bunch of arguments about if writing fanfiction of live action shows or movies changes the equation. The general consensus of proshippers is that writing fanfiction of a character played by a child actor is definitely a more delicate situation and should not be sexual as it's inextricably tied to the image of a real child, but there are others who believe differently.

- I'm genuinely struggling to come up with more of these. Um, sometimes lolicons are really shitty people, like in point 1. This isn't SUPER relevant though cause in reality the overlap between predominantly queer or female proshippers and Reddit incels who just wanna jerk off to a petite anime girl is pretty small, though I'm sure it exists somewhere .

Now, what problems do antis have? (Fair warning, this is gonna sound even more "biased" but I hope my logic is still sound from the outside :p):

- I don't have any statistics on this (haven't exactly been many research papers on fandom drama), so you're going to have to trust me when I say that antis are absolutely NOTORIOUS for extreme harassment campaigns. The first time I was exposed to the word "antishipper", it was attached to a story of a former animator committing suicide because antis had gotten them fired by "exposing" their porn alt on Twitter and they could no longer afford medication for their disability. So, hell of an intro!

- their opinions are, in pretty basic ways, not backed by science or even practical common sense. The human brain can distinguish between fiction and reality after around age four or five

and people certainly aren't trying to hand nsfw content to children that age so I think it's safe to say that the people who are reading these things won't be "confused" by them or whatever. Also, even just using your brain and talking to these people, you find out most of them project onto the YOUNGER character.

- they claim to support victims but often simply don't. I won't keep dragging threats into the spotlight because I know there are probably antis who aren't as violent, but it's honestly astonishing to me how often they jump straight to wishing death and terrible things on people, and this has included more than once telling a rape victim they hope they get assaulted again just because they're a proshipper. See, a lot of these "taboo" sexual fantasies like age gap and incest actually themselves stem from a traumatic experience, and any therapist will tell you that fiction is a much healthier way to explore intrusive thoughts and urges than more dangerous coping mechanisms like self harm or substance abuse. And when confronted with this, in my experience and many others', antis will simply ignore that fact or say that the therapist is some sort of evil enabler.

-the general cognitive dissonance of believing an incest fanfiction will make you "forget" that incest is bad vs being fine with horror movies and slashers speaks to a deeper and honestly kind of worrying anti-sex mindset. I'm not sure I'm qualified to tackle this particular topic, but I definitely agree that it's a thing; after all, I have no idea how else those two things could coexist.

Anyways, I'd like to close this off by saying not everyone is as crazy opinionated as I am, I'm just autistic and like talking lol. A lot of people who id as proshippers just have a sort of minding their own business, ship-and-let-ship mentality, and a lot of antis are unfortunately just teenagers who were told proshipper = evil pedophile groomer and thus they put "proship dni" in their bios just cause they don't know and don't really care what it means. It is undeniable that many antis are kids themselves, and that does worry me, because fandom drama (especially Twitter fandom drama) is dangerous and vitriolic and also they're putting extremely serious threats on their digital footprints at the tender age of 14! But whatever, I'm not their parents, that's just my worry. Sorry for rambling this long lol, I wouldn't blame you if you dropped out halfway through but this is basically my summary of this whole thing. Do with this knowledge what you will! Or, you know, don't! I'm not a cop!

[noireainsworth]

What annoys me in Haikyuu fanfiction written by cishet girls:

Yes, I really enjoy fanfics and a lot of cishet women write amazing things but I've been noticing something for a long time that really annoys me and that's how often fanfic writers completely change the "bottom" into degrading stereotypes. This is even more annoying when you keep in mind that:

-Hinata always fought to grow as a player and stand as an equal to Kageyama while never letting him treat him as worthless or inferior. So no, he's not going to let himself be overpowered or intimidated by Kageyama.

-Suga is a completely chaotic and outgoing type but also a very observant and emotionally mature guy who is always the first one to notice something about his teamates, not a blushing teen, thank you very much.

-Nishinoya is a ball of energy and an absolute fighter who's without a doubt one of the most determinated characted in the show and he was always the first to speak out to Asahi when it was needed.

-Yamaguchi's entire arc is about becoming more confident and letting go of his insecurities. Also let's not forget that he literally yelled at Tsukishima to get his shit together so no, he's not a shy boy who can be walked over by Tsukki.

-Oikawa is one of the most talented player of this show and a fucking tease who always opens his mouth and annoy the shit out of everyone. He is also a literal monster on the court who can crush your hopes and dreams with a single service.

-Kenma is a teenage boy with literal social anxiety who happens to be a brilliant strategist, sarcastic as fuck, brutally honest and even a little mean when he is confident enough. So reducing him to a UWU sOft SHy BaBy ~~ is probably the thing that angers me the most, especially when we have a lot of moments where it's explicitely shown that he has a very strong personality underneath his deep social anxiety. (Yes, I'm a sucker for Dom!Kenma or any fanfic that portrays him as a little sadistic fuck).

-Akaashi is also very sarcastic despite his pokerface and he's always the one who deals with Bokuto's mood swings so I can't help but roll my eyes when he's portrayed as completely submissive to Bokuto who often embodies the big strong alpha male stereotype (that doesn't fit him at all but that's another problem about Haikyuu "tops".)

Now, with all these characters who are strong and complex, all in their own way, WHY do so many fanfics protray them as shy UWU boys? Yes, they are mainly associated with bottoming but that doesn't mean they have to fit the stereotype of the inexperimented baby who blushes and stutters all the time! It's just degrading to represent queer relationships like that, where one is always feminised and the other changed to be a "big and strong and very dominant masculine top"

I love the fanfics where they bottom but aren't completely passive, where they have real or funny interactions with their partner, where they let their personnalities shine. I want more of these stories where they are described as real, relatable characters with more nuanced sexualities where bottoming isn't necessarily equal to submitting; and where submitting in bed doesn't imply being a defensless shy boy. Basically good written fics that portrays healthy and nuanced queer relationships.

[pilotsandgays]

don't mind me i'm thinking about how Pete "Maverick" Mitchell and Tom "Iceman" Kazansky are both CANONICALLY QUEER.

That's right folks, you read that correctly. I present to you the evidence:

Regarding Iceman, we all knew he was gay, because Val Kilmer himself literally confirmed it in an interview for Kiss Kiss Bang Bang (he talked about his role as a gay character in the film and said that it wasn't his first; he admitted top gun was his first gay role.)

And for Maverick, the canon evidence was in the original Top Gun itself - in a scene that SO many people overlook. At the o-club scene, Goose tells Maverick when they're making a bet that Maverick "must have carnal knowledge, of a woman this time."

That line right there implies that Maverick has hit on people before that AREN'T women-- because if Maverick was completely straight, why would Goose need to specify that Maverick needs to hit on a woman this time?

The amount of queerness in this film AMAZES ME. And it's not subtle, quiet things only certain people can catch. ITS OUT THERE. So, with Mav and Ice being canonically queer, it's safe to assume Icemav actually had feelings for each other, from all of the very homoerotic scenes they had in the first movie and hell, even TGM.

Tldr: Iceman and Maverick are both canonically lgbt+ and Icemav is literally canon. Thanks for coming to my ted talk.

[kitsu-katsu]

I was talking with someone about just how canon the ineffable husbands are in good omens and I brought up how Gaiman said that what they have is canonically a love story (which is really reflected in the show, with their moments of vulnerability towards the other, their despair at the thought of losing one another, their comfort with eachother, the way they stick together through millennia even when they're never trying to, etc), but they don't have labels, as they don't have genders and the human conception of intimacy eludes them as ethereal beings that aren't human

And the complications with that

Because this person I was discussing with is not as versed in fandom discourse, and so they're only now finding the vocabulary of "queer baiting" to talk about that Sherlock show

And so they're like "I hope I see Crowley and Aziraphale absolutely eat eachother's mouths, it has to be canonized" and I'm standing here like. It is canon though. Like they won't add some "hetero romance" cop-out last minute. They are canonically in a love story. What's interesting is how the label-less queerness of it can also explore non-binary aspects and an aroace perspective on what "love" is

And they're bummed out because if they don't "absolutely eat eachother's mouths" it doesn't feel as canon to them. And I'm still standing here in aroace like. Bro. There are so many forms of relationships. A kiss on screen doesn't have to make it any more or less canon

But at the same time, from the amatonormative perspective, I get how the kiss on screen is seen as the end all be all. Because in general media, the main pairings will have the kiss at the end. And they will live happily ever after with that

Before the kiss it is only as canon as the kiss is predictable, and after the kiss, you can point to that one scene as "the moment it was canonized for realsies despite even people in the show making constant remarks about this being an obvious thing"

And I kinda hate it

I just wish the whole community wouldn't have to keep its guards up like this so much to discern whether something is coming from a genuine place of wanting to tell a story for a queer audience or about a queer subject or if it's all just a ploy to get our money, spit in our faces, smile at the traditional homophobic crowd and fund some conservative party with it

Because then we wouldn't have to play it by the boring straight rules. If everything points to it being obvious, then why is an intense kiss necessary? Why is it all you want? Why can't this represent a qpr? Or a loving relationship where intimacy in the form of a kiss just isn't something the characters want? Or a more open thing instead of being a purely monogamous arrangement? Or something completely new, a dynamic you can only describe in an essay lest you don't make their chemistry justice?

Aren't all of those just a much more under-thought about queer dynamics than what "I want these characters to kiss eachother until they can't remember their names on screen or else it isn't canon enough" can convey?

But at the same time, without something as concise and strong in media language, how do you make sure it won't all stay in just subtext and the reason it looks like clear text to you is because you're starved for queer stories and have become way too accustomed to reading between the lines?

I mean, it's also been proven to not be an absolute in instances where the text goes ham in letting you know what it's saying, when it's not implying, it is just telling. For one, Rose and Pearl in Steven Universe never did share a kiss on screen, and nevertheless we all know what was going on there

Idk, it's complicated and it's 1am, and this is all just a ramble, but I am in my aroace hating amatonormativity mood and the sentiment that characters being a canon thing without an explicit kiss bums someone out to the point they say "ok, ok, I get the whole nb ace ethereal beings that aren't human idea, but I want something more explicit because it doesn't feel canon enough" when that isn't strictly necessary for the story to get it across just got me in a weird mood and this is about so much more than good omens, I needed to try and word it out and might as well put it out there

Just. Why does queerness have to be allonormative and also amatonormative to be valid in the eyes of the queer masses necessarily? You'd think we'd figured out that queerness goes beyond just the L, G, B and binary T by now

[maoam]

"Kishimoto make sasuke and naruto gay intentionally and not on accident" Okay then so why did he go on multiple interviews insisting that naruto and sasuke's relationship is brotherly and is inspired from his twin brother and that people shouldn't interpret their bond as romantic but platonic?? Source : https://twitter* com/uchihassasusaku/status/1419104011265974275?

If a writer writes homoerotic subtext in his material and expects people to read the material as romantic, he doesnt go around calling the characters "siblings" and asking people to not interpret their dynamic as romantic because then people wont read into his queer subtext like he wanted to

Ship what you want to ship. But stop acting like everyone should buy into your delusions. Kishimoto never said or implied that he wanted naruto and sasuke to be seen as gay but he did say many times that their relationship is brotherly

Ah, another shipper who ships a ship where creator implied twice they never kissed. And whose couple never had a meaningful conversation in a 700 chapter manga. And linking me to some SS stan who gave Elon Musk money for bluecheck mark. 🤣 A good ground to stand on. Okay, I will guide you by the hand since you don't seem to understand. It's okay, illiteracy is a common problem these days. I will put this in easy sections for you, with added links.

Also you and your "queer" nonsense... we are talking about gay, homosexuality. Not slurs.

About the interviews:

The Kizuna thing isn't even written by him, it's an article by another person. These books aren't written by the mangakas ever, they do not have the time nor is the article written from Kishi's pov. Shocker, people write a lot of things in anime merchandise that the creator isn't even involved in. [link] If it were written by Kishi, then an interviewer wouldn't have had to ask Kishi years later whether brotherly relationship was what he was going for with Naruto and Sasuke's bond, and Kishi wouldn't have had given such a cryptic answer where he mulls over it. Because he would have given the answers years back already. Also the fact that he's asked to define their relationship shows how weird it is to the readers. He NEVER told people to not interpret their relationship as romantic. And personally, I have seen movies and a comic where two characters referred to each other as brothers, and their creator referred to them as "soul brothers" but later revealed them to also have romantic feelings.

But I don't expect your mind to be able to comprehend things like this, it does require a little bit of 1+1=2 math. The interview about Seishi is about the feeling of empathy, not that they are literally Naruto and Sasuke's characters. It is one aspect. Kishi has joked about how Naruto and Sasuke are him and his editor too, because he will try to impress his editor. So? And he has said Kushina is based on his wife. So Naruto is him and Kushina is his wife? Why aren't you freaking about this freudian stuff? I know why. I also remember someone saying if Kishi REALLY saw his relationship with his brother as the exact same as Naruto and Sasuke, his brother would need a restraining order against him. It was funny and accurate.

I have wrote about the inconsistencies in his interviews and what shows that he definitely didn't write their dynamic as the same as with his brother despite having one aspect of it [link] and here is another post talking about it more deeply (they also linked my post I just mentioned) [link]. This post also explains how Kishimoto wrote Naruto constantly to do what Sakura can't for Sasuke, and she also included many links to my other posts where I talk about how Kishi wrote Sakura and Sasuke's dynamic, which you can also read if you feel like it. Unless you are scared of being proved wrong, you will read those right, or at least the linked post itself?

About how the audience perceives their dynamic:

The thing is, you and SS fandom don't understand how stories are written. Authors don't do stuff randomly. They use narrative and literary devices to tell their story. Kishi himself has remarked on it many times how careful he is about writing characters, how much he does research, how careful he is about angles etc. [link] If Naruto and Sasuke's relationship was written as brotherly in the text, in the manga, it wouldn't make a bunch of people uncomfortable. There wouldn't have been meltdowns after specific chapters nor would we have people saying when the manga was going on that they are annoyed by the "gay stuff". [link] [link] [link] (there are many more, but here's some collections for an example). Here's one more talking about the Japanese fandom. [link]

When Luffy was saving Ace in Impel Town/Marineford arc, no one in the dudebro community was uncomfortable nor saying it was gay. Eventhough it was a touching and dramatic storyline that showed us how much the two cared about each other. When Alibaba and Cassim were having their past and relationship unravelled in Magi, no one was uncomfortable. Eventhough it was tragic and dramatic and touching yet again. Because despite neither of these pairs being blood-brothers, they were WRITTEN to have a brotherly dynamic/development/relationship in the text, in their behavior. Which is why this also translated to the audience successfully.

If Naruto and Sasuke were written to be brotherly, they would refer to each other as such, including in Boruto, and would tell other people such as well. Hell, they would be proud to tell other people that this person they respect and admire the most is like a brother to them. But they don't. Naruto even told Hagoromo they aren't siblings, but friends. Sasuke said he has only one brother and that is Itachi. If they were brotherly, Kishi wouldn't make Naruto kiss Sasuke, even if accidentally, and have that to be their first interaction. He wouldn't say he wants to be the first one to have rivals kiss in shounen. Not a single brotherly relationship in media is written like this. You know, tropes matter. He wouldn't have Sasuke think fondly about the kiss as one of his most precious memories when he is dying, while years later implying more than once Sasuke never kissed Sakura lol. He wouldn't say Sakura had her first kiss stolen by her rival Naruto. He wouldn't make Sakura be jealous of Naruto's importance to Sasuke, while also giving her zero importance in saving Sasuke. He would not constantly make fun of Sakura by having her be thirsty/desperate for Sasuke's attention, any little crumb from him, while Sasuke ignores her and focuses on Naruto. Kishi knows how his writing comes off. Plenty of people, both men and women who weren't shippers, made jokes about Sasuke going "where's Naruto? hey Naruto" whenever Sakura speaks. Because Kishi made it such a constant dynamic with the three of them. People who have the basic amount of media literacy will get it, and thus all those jokes and memes were born. [link] [link] [link]

If they were brotherly, the anime studio wouldn't have them make eyes at each other while lyrics "please kiss me all night" play in the background, aside from all the other gay ops/ends with romantic lyrics to them. And since Kishi watches the anime, he would have probably point out it's weird. That's what I would do if I wrote about my relationship with my brother and people did that. Magi anime didn't have Alibaba and Cassim in romantic endings...

Kishi wouldn't put this in the movie he made if he wanted them to appear as brothers. Everyone was saying this looked gay/homoerotic when the movie dropped. I saw men on forums say "lol this looks so homoerotic, why did he have to catch Sasuke like that" and even in Chinese theaters people were giggling during this scene. Because it's so in your face fanservice. And Kishi said he cares about angles a lot in his story and that he redraws them if they aren't good enough to drive the message home. So what exactly does that tell you?

People usually aren't sexual about their brother

He wouldn't sexualize and put so much homoeroticism surrounding Sasuke's character, if Sasuke was solely inspired by his brother. You know, unless he had a questionable obsession with his brother. [link]

He wouldn't make Naruto literally get sexually excited when about to fight Sasuke lol [link] [link] that's so obvious Japanese men got amused, uncomfortable and even angry about it, if Sasuke and Naruto were him and his brother.

Romantic tropes/brotherly tropes are not the same

The fact Kishimoto's het couples parallel Naruto and Sasuke's dynamic is very evident. If "brotherly" relationship resembles romantic couples by the same author instead of the other brother dynamics he has written, guess what, it's not written as a brother dynamic lol. Again, proof that he didn't write their dynamic as brotherly. Both Mario/Saori [link] [link] and Minato/Kushina [link] [link] parallel Naruto/Sasuke and have the same tropes as them.

Raikage/Killer B is written as a normal brother relationship. Itachi/Sasuke is written as a complicated brother relationship with a lot of tragedy. Shikamaru/Choji is written as a normal friendship. Kakashi/Obito is written as a complicated friendship with a lot of tragedy. Naruto/Sasuke resembles the romantic relationships Kishimoto wrote, instead of these ones I mentioned. Even in their world, Naruto's actions are seen as irrational and obsession, and the weirdness of it all is constantly pointed out, by Sai, Kabuto, Sakura, Raikage, Itachi. This is a choice Kishi made when he wrote them. [link]

He also made a homage to Devilman and Akira/Ryo relationship that even people in the Japanese fandom noticed. [link] He specifically picked the chapter where Ryo admits having romantic feelings for Akira, and the fight (which parallels Vote2) ending with Ryo realizing how deep his feelings for Akira lie. Kishimoto would not do that if Naruto and Sasuke were based on him and his brother. Why would he pick a character famous for being gay for his best friend/enemy in a chapter where we finally get to see inside Sasuke's head?

Aside from paralleling Hinata's feelings towards Naruto in the Pain arc with Naruto's feelings towards Sasuke in the very next arc, he also foreshadowed a romantic double-suicide with Naruto and Sasuke during said arc. ROMANTIC. [link]

Sasuke on the other hand, was never satisfied with Naruto calling him brother or friend. If their relationship was strictly brotherly, they wouldn't need to ponder about the nature of their relationship, because that's not how any brotherly relationship is written in media. [link]

Kishimoto dislikes SS and talks about Sakura's "love" negatively more than once. [link] Sakura's love is selfish, toxic... yet this doesn't mean anything. Sakura wanted to save Sasuke, yet the one Sasuke said saved him was Naruto.

Now think hard. Use the modest intellect you possess. So aside from Kishimoto having Naruto show sexual attraction towards Sasuke to the point it made Japanese men uncomfortable, he also used romantic tropes (one of them being double-suicide which a writer Kishimoto admires is famous for because he mostly wrote romantic plays ending in that) and romantic parallels to show Naruto's feelings towards Sasuke multiple times, which he did not use for other male friendships in the manga. To the point many Japanese men wondered why Kishimoto "has to push homosexual agenda with Naruto's character", despite the fact he's supposed to be " a normal/good guy". All of these things somehow do not mean anything, nor do the multiple other things I have pointed out on my blog.

I'm not asking you to "buy" into anything, because understanding Naruto is a love story between Naruto and Sasuke and that Kishimoto does not even like Sakura let alone SS would require a little bit of reading comprehension and common sense. Which you and the person you linked sacrificed at the pink altar of Sakura worship, because to you not having anything in common with your partner nor having anything meaningful to talk about nor knowing anything about each other is somehow love. To you having someone else help and understand the person you love because you can't somehow makes an ideal relationship. You mistake Sakura's onesided melodrama for love. She has never said anything meaningful about Sasuke's character, neither has Sasuke said anything meaningful about her. Yet you believe Kishi wrote some deep relationship between them. How am I supposed to reason with someone like that? But your gaslighting doesn't phase me, I have seen all this before many times, it's old news by now. You can call me delusional all you want, but I trust my own understanding thank you very much. It's not like that much is even required, as proven by how many people, even the ones that don't have any need to (casual viewers, straight men, etc.) see it, still see it. Because it is that obvious that only desperate need to not see it blinds someone like you from seeing it.

I'm actually working on another post about Narusasu and Kishi's writing tools regarding it, so stay tuned 🩷

[myimaginarywonderland]

I don't know why you all are acting like even leaning for a kiss isn't cheating.

Eddie is a committed relationship that he has had for months.

Buck has spent the last weeks/days (no idea about time in the show still) crushing on a guy that he is currently dating.

Buck has once before kissed someone drunk while in a relationship and deeply regretted it. This was a plot that was seen so out of character that there are people even debating if it was consensual.

Eddie, while being a bad partner, has never been anything but loyal.

Someone who is committed to another person for as long as Eddie and Marisol have been, is not even entertaining the thought of kissing someone else.

And an almost kiss makes it even worse because the cheating is not just physical but it deeply emotional as it implies such strong feelings between the two people who are cheating.

If you want a ship so many have wanted for years to start this way, maybe you are the problem because a storyline like this is even more problematic than the Buck/Lucy kiss as both people would be cheating and to such an awful degree.

Not to mention that showing a character who just recently revealed as Bi, a character who has already cheated on someone before, kissing a person they aren't dating? Biophobia is a real fucking thing and it starts with you all implying that almost kissing someone while you are dating another person is okay.

Biophobia is very much a thing because it implies that someone because Tommy and Eddie are guys this kiss would count less? If you truly can not see the amount of problematic layers to any possible Buddie storyline next episode, maybe you should not watch a show that wants to tell a positive queer story.

[aphverse-confessions]

Most of these people advocating for casual lesbiphobia and misinformation in Minecraft fandom spaces (and furthermore implying that this is a STAPLE and REQUIREMENT of it) are not even lesbians; they don't have the means to send asks like that one. I know for a fact that some of you are not lesbians. Half of you blindly agreeing because you don't know any better and are afraid to ask/challenge, I know for a fact some of you are also not lesbians!

Advocating for ANY form of a lesbian identity that involves being attracted to men, particularly your use of 'mspec' and 'bi lesbians' here, even in fiction, is absolutely not a staple or requirement for a fandom. Not even in a big diverse fandom like MCYT. You are not a 'majority vote' and you do not have the power to dictate how progressive or diverse a fandom space is, nor do you have the power to 'chase people to twitter' to protect a fandom space that you aren't in charge of. Nor is this 'chasing you off' in return because this is Tumblr and a fandom and chances are in fandom you will meet at least one person who doesn't agree with you. But in the gentlest way possible, crying 'exclusionist!' is shutting yourself off from ever having a mature conversation about the issue at hand. Being open to new, emerging and changing sexualities and fluidities does not also mean actively disrespecting lesbians, and as a lesbian it's so frustrating to see you all be so okay with it.

It is not exclusionary to admit that lesbians can't also be bisexual/biromantic. It is not exclusionary. Simple as that. It's not exclusionary to say that you shouldn't be headcanoning your queer characters as 'bi lesbians' as if to suggest that lesbians can also be bisexual or biromantic in any way. It is not fair to suggest that being a lesbian is a spectrum that means you can be sexually attracted to or romantically attracted to men. If you are sexually attracted to different people but romantically only attracted to women, lesbian (much less mspec lesbian or bi lesbian) is not the word you use to describe that preference, especially if you yourself aren't a lesbian and are just trying to headcanon character sexualities. Even if you personally think that putting the word mspec label alongside the lesbian label (which actively contradict each other) is fitting, your lesbian friends very well can be and are allowed to be hurt. You are imlpying that the lesbian identity, which can be fluid and growing, yes, will always in some way shape or form include men. Whether that's romantic or sexual or included within bi identities, you are still spreading that narrative that our sexualities must always adjust to have men involved. When you project that on fictional characters, you are also spreading that rhetoric into fandom.

You can talk about queer women, split-attraction and mspec identities without lumping in the lesbian identity beside them. It is disrespectful to promote a 'bi lesbian' as an existent identity that has a place alongside your other headcanons. These characters can very well be biromantic/bisexual with a preference for women. They could be referred to as sapphic, WLW, so many more. There are so many identities that allow women to have preferences that involve men. There is a multitude of beautiful and good labels and words if you do want one that describe attraction to women on a variety of levels that still include bisexual people and still acknowledge mspec/romantic-sexual splits. Lesbian is not one of them.

The reaches that some of you guys are going to to try and involve men in lesbian's circles of sexual and romantic attraction is ridiculous. Some of you, I know for a fact, are fully grown adults who should know better. And yes, their ask opened themselves up to 'discourse' and 'an argument' because it wasn't good! Stop reducing queer conversations to 'oouuh more discourse I don't wanna fight ><' and comparing it to proshipping on tumblr? My god.

From the looks of these discord servers and the reblogs on that post, there's a distinct group of people in support who need to reconsider the language they use and consider adjusting the language in your headcanons. It's shameful to see the lack of research and respect around aphblr currently and even in discord servers. It is moreso sad finding out the amount of people in this fandom who are still trying to find ways to involve attraction to men into the lesbian identity. Bending over backwards to defend bi lesbian headcanons is just one of those ways. There are better and far better hills in queer discourse to die on.

I love my bi siblings (metaphorically) and my bi siblings love me. Even while identity is fluid and can change or develop, it is not biphobic or lesbiphobic to recognise that lesbians are not also bisexual in any way, shape or form. Lesbians do not also secretly have romantic or sexual attractions to men. We are not romantically attracted to men but sexually to women or the other way around; lesbian is not the word to describe a general attraction to women and also men sometimes too. Be respectful of your lesbian siblings in fandom spaces.

.

[elizmanderson]

queerness in The Remarkable Retirement of Edna Fisher

book description

when you’re an old woman armed with nothing but gumption and knitting needles, stopping a sorcerer from wiping out an entire dragon-fighting organization is a tall order. no one understands why 83-year-old Edna Fisher is the Chosen One, destined to save the Knights from a dragon-riding sorcerer bent on their destruction. after all, Edna has never handled a magical weapon, faced down a dragon, or cast a spell. and everyone knows the Council of Wizards always chooses a teenager—like the vengeful girl ready to snatch Edna’s destiny from under her nose.

still, Edna leaps at the chance to leave the nursing home. with a son long dead in the Knights’ service, she’s determined to save dragon-fighters like him & ensure other mothers don’t suffer the same loss she did. but as Edna learns about the abuse in the ranks & the sorcerer’s history, she questions if it’s really the sorcerer that needs stopping—or the Knights she’s trying to save.

find it here

okay let's talk about queerness in this book

did a thread on twitter in which I said "cishet" five hundred thousand times so will probably get banned lmao but anyway I wanted to share it here too

especially since it's late in Pride Month and I have yet to post anything anywhere about it BEING Pride Month and me being queer and my books being queer, bc I've been burnt out af. so what energy I've had has gone toward planning and writing

anyway

I say "queerness in" rather than "queer characters in" because I want to talk about queerness in the book more broadly, not least bc I'm a queer creator & this is a queer book, but I've had a lot of impostor syndrome about both those things.

I figured out I was queer later in life & am a woman-presenting person w/a male-presenting partner. I've questioned my gender & sexuality repeatedly & ID'd differently over time, which is why I like "queer." I don't have to re-explain myself a dozen times. I'm queer. that's that.

but having figured out my queerness later, and having a relationship that presents as cishet, it took a long time for me to overcome feelings of ~not being queer enough~ (and sometimes I still struggle with them).

similarly, my MC is an apparently* cishet woman, unlike the MCs of many books that appear on queer book lists at this time of year. just like I took a long time to start really engaging with my community bc I worried I wasn't ~queer enough,~ for a long time, I didn't call this a queer book bc I worried it wasn't ~queer enough~. if people asked if the book was queer, I'd reply with a laundry list of explicitly queer characters rather than saying yes

fuck that though lmao. this is a queer book. let me count the ways

1. found family

as found family is so important to many queer people - by connecting us to our community, by welcoming us when bio family casts us off - found family is central to REMARKABLE RETIREMENT. while there are queer romantic arcs, the found family is the most important relationship in the book.

2. queer labels

some characters get explicit labels. Benjamin is gay. Clem is ace. queer labels are important bc they give us the ability to describe our identities and experiences! however...

3. undefined queerness

while labels are important, queerness isn't about fitting into new boxes. it's about smashing the boxes apart.

even if characters don't have specific labels applied on-page, they're queer. they don't need to claim a specific label for that to be true.*

*caveat that some media avoids using labels to pander to queer audiences w/implied queerness without ~alienating~ cishets by stating "this character is Not Cishet"**

that's not what I mean

I mean e.g. in OFMD queerness is inherent even if WORDS like queer/ace/etc aren't used. OMitB is another example (specifically Mabel) and Good Omens is yet another.

**caveat to my caveat that some media is queer-coded & avoids queer labels rather than being explicitly queer because network execs or whoever won't allow explicit queerness.

this is not the fault of the creators. sometimes it can be hard to tell the difference.

but anyway.

in REMARKABLE RETIREMENT, several queer characters are queer without using specific labels.

in some cases this is bc it doesn't come up or isn't important to them to express in the moment. like Clem is bi, but she's not worried about being bi. she's worried about being ace, because she's still kind of questioning that about herself, and she's worried it might cause problems down the road if her crush is >:[ about her not wanting to have sex. so she uses the word "ace" to describe herself in this scene but not "bi," even though she's both.

in other cases it's bc they don't have the language. Kiernan's sense of attraction and desire is described in a way that seems graysexual or demisexual (or both), and Red's sense of desire is described in a way that seems ace-spec, but neither of them use those terms, because neither of them know those terms. despite the lack of terminology, many ace readers have identified multiple ace characters based on description or experience. the lack of a specific label doesn't make those characters less queer.

similarly, some characters have not yet had this realization about themselves. which leads us to...

4. questioning

okay, back to my first asterisk of the post.

Edna is by all appearances an old cishet woman.

for most of the story, that's how she seems. that's what SHE thinks, even. she's a cishet old grandma adopting every queer young person she can find.

BUT THEN

Clem explains aceness to her

and Edna has a brief crisis bc wait a minute this sounds like her??

ultimately, Edna has too much to worry about right now to spend time questioning whether, at the age of 83, she might be somewhere on the ace spectrum

so it doesn't come up again

but that moment of crisis is THERE, & that too is queer

5. queernormativity*

I write queernorm worlds, largely bc I viscerally hate coming out lmao

it doesn't mean everyone's a queer scholar

like Clem has to explain "ace" to Edna, bc Edna thinks blankly of a deck of cards & doesn't understand what that has to do with sex

but it DOES mean queer folks get to just be and do

*caveat that this is not remotely to imply that a story is less queer if its world ISN'T queernorm

it's just a way in which MY story is queer

6. all the queer characters

not gonna do a list (even though my original idea for Pride Month when I was young and optimistic and thought I'd have energy to do it way back when was a list of queer characters), but virtually every character in this book is queer in one way or another

on twitter this is where I ended because 6 seemed like a good number for Pride since June is the sixth month, but tumblr gets a bonus

7. the author is queer

happy pride, buy my queer book

[haruniki]

Character Coding and Why it's Important

Hello! I know I haven't posted in a while, I have been really busy with work and school. I'm making this post due to a lot of discourse involving character coding (if you're on hsrtwt you'll know what I'm talking about). If you are uninterested in this kind of post then that's okay, I plan on making some new post that are more in tune with my normal post. This will not cover everything and is mostly just an informationally piece and there is an opinion segment at the very end but i will state that it's an opinion part. There will be errors or wording issues, but I just got back from a 7 hour trip.

Firstly, what is character coding?

Character coding is used to implied that a character is apart of a specific group of people or to have specific characteristics that either can't be explicitly said or doesn't have to be explicitly said. An example of this can be an alien race in fiction that has specific characteristics or traits to a real culture/ethnicity. Sexuality is also another form of coding that is most popularly used in countries with very strict censorship laws.

For this example, I will be using the character who inspired me to make this post, Robin (Honkai Star Rail). While I will not be explicitly saying that she is a lesbian, I will be explaining why it's likely that she is one. One key part of her design is the three jewels under Robin's eye, and while they aren't all the colors of the lesbian flag, they are the main colors you would use to showcase that flag. Though there has been argument that the colors are just taken from Xipe (Aeon of Harmony) and while yes those are three of the colors Xipe has on their halo, there's many other colors that Xipe has that weren't chosen. Hoyoverse is usually very particular about character design, so I don't think it's much of a coincidence that her gems are that specific colors.

Another coding to her character is that she has references to Emily Dickinson, who is strongly considered a lesbian due to her poems and even some of the letters she has sent. While Robin's song is a reference to a poem to one of her poems and isn't strictly referencing Emily Dickinson's lesbianism, it's still a interesting choice to reference Emily Dickinson. Hoyoverse typically does a lot of research for a character, especially if the character is possibly queer. Why doesn't Hoyovesre just confirm a character being queer?

There's many reasons as to why they haven't or can't. One in particular is censorship. Due to Hoyoverse being a Chinese company, they have to follow the censorship laws in their country. Hoyoverse has shown queer characters before even showing a kiss between two women and having canon lesbian/sapphic couples. Bronya and Seele have been a canon couple since GGZ and even share a kiss in a comic. The kiss Bronseele share however has been censored in the Chinese version of the comic and doesn't appear, though it does appear in the English version (hyperlink to the twitter post showing this). Hoyo has also explixitly said that a character is lesbian before, in a comic for HI3. This hyperlink will take to a twitter post of the official comic that has been translated from chinese.

Before I write my opinion piece on this topic, I would like to bring up one argument that I saw a lot and that was that hoyoverse only shows women with queer coding or having queer relationships and only panders to the cishet men who sexualize sapphic relationship. Hoyoverse has never pandered to the sexualization or fetishization of sapphic relationships. Hoyoverse has always presented sapphic relationship in the medias that they make. Bronseele is the earliest example that I remember from my time playing GGZ and HI3. They have also been together in every single game and have been implied/shown to be in a relationship and while it hasn't been exactly explicit in HSR, it has been shown in other games like HI3 or GGZ (I believe there was also a visual novel game but I may be getting it confused with the cutscenes as I have not played GGZ or HI3 in forever). Opinion piece: My overall opinion on character coding is that it is important to at least acknowledge a character's coding no matter what kind of coding it is. If you are confused on coding and why a lot of people are stating that a character is something specific, then you should always do research on it. Media literacy comes into play in a lot of pieces of fictions, especially when the media is made or from a country with strict censorship laws. If you yourself can't acknowledge the coding in the media, then you have no place to argue especially when you are being shown proof from the media that helps prove that coding. Also, if your whole point to proving a character is straight is that the complimented the opposite sex then I need you to reevaluate things. A lesbian can state that a man is handsome without being attractive to him, the same way that a gay man can state that a woman is beautiful without being attracted to her. Again, this is mostly an informational piece based with proofs that I've found on the internet, as well as my own knowledge from being in fandom spaces since I was 9 (my earliest fandom debate being the queerness in homestuck though I can't remember the exact details of it as it was a decade ago). And while this is correctly type out or has missing information, I express that I am not a professional on this kind of stuff and that only bring up the importance of coding as someone people feel seen with specific coding or character implications. I will not be arguing in the replies to this post and will most likely delete anyone trying to argue or start an argument, I am not a professional in this topic nor do I want to be, i just wanted to share what I have researched along with my own opinion on the matter.

[hikaaa-bi]

one thing that i love about infinity train is how REAL the characters are, despite being in a fantasy setting, and the narrative of how experiences shape individuals. the way they speak and act are so realistic, their choices are understandable and their arcs are so well-written. all of the characters have glaring flaws they need to work on, but it's also clear that these flaws are the results of some kind of trauma or the way they were treated.

tulip was disillusioned with the world, angry and distant. and this is a direct reaction to her parents' divorce and her inability to cope with it. which is sympathetic, of course, it's a hard thing to go through as a child. the show also reveals that tulip blames herself for her parents' divorce, which can hit close to home for many people.

lake was similarly angry and defiant, even outright hostile in certain situations. again, this comes as a response to the way she was treated in the train, the way she was never granted her freedom and individuality, and how she was trapped in a role she didn't want to play. it's no wonder that many queer people identify so much with lake, because the rules of the train mirrors real life.

jesse has people-pleasing tendencies that reach the point where it actually hurts people. we've all seen protagonists who are people pleasers or eager to appear likeable to people, but usually it only hurts themselves. jesse's case is the prime example of "a friend to all is a friend to none". you can't please everyone, there are people you should oppose or ignore. otherwise, you end up hurting people who actually matters in your life.

simon and grace are straight-up villains, or anti-villains at the very best. grace is manipulative and cunning, playing on people's feelings and insecurities to serve herself. simon is controlling and somewhat egotistic, refusing to change his mindset, regardless of what happens. again, both these characters are shown to have reasons for why they became what they are, even if it doesn't justify their actions. grace grew up in an environment where she was neglected and felt lonely, and found out that her only sure way of making any sort of connection is to manipulate people. simon is implied to have dealt with someone's death before he got on the train, since he seems to have an idea of what funerals are like. that, paired with samantha the cat accidentally leaving him behind in a crucial and dangerous situation, he develops some very intense abandonment issues. again, both these issues can be very relatable to a lot of people, even if we aren't as bad as either of these characters.

min-gi was shown to be insecure and uncertain, but at the same time, arrogant and condescending. the pressure he recieved from his parents has fueled his gifted child syndrome while simultaneously making him depressed and burned out. ryan is probably the closest we have to a "conventional main character", hyperactive and quirky. but he is also not exactly perfect in all other aspects, as he wants to push things forward and refuses to give min-gi some time to think and make a decision. as a child who grew up with lots of other siblings, ryan struggles to prove himself to his family, since they don't seem to pay him much attention. both these scenarios are especially relatable to asians, but of course, anyone who may have trouble pleasing their parents and living up to expectations.

i just gave a character analysis of each protagonist, but my point is that while other cartoon protagonists tend to lean more on the heroic side, the characters in this show doesn't. in most other animated shows i've watched, the flaws a protagonist is allowed to have are either "heroic" flaws such as being too forgiving or being self-sacrificing, or shallow flaws such as clumsiness or being kind of an idiot.

but not in infinity train. the protagonists in this show aren't heroes, they are normal people. they don't have a magical destiny, they don't have to fight for the good of the world, they aren't the "chosen ones". their ultimate goal is to get out of the train (or in simon and grace's case, to be superior to everyone else, to "win").

so it really feels good when one of the characters does choose to do something nice. when tulip chooses to empathize with and help amelia, when lake bonds with alan dracula and jesse. when grace chooses to change for the better and face the consequences of her actions. when ryan chooses to stay with min-go despite getting a door, and when min-gi does the same later on.

i watched this show about a year ago, and it's still one of the best animated shows i've watched. it's so uncomfortably real sometimes, you stop and go "am i like that?" when a character does something wrong, you know that the show addresses it and their actions have consequences. the show doesn't hand out redemption arcs to everyone or sweep things under the rug like some shows *cough* steven universe and she-ra *cough*

there's a reason why a lot of people seem to relate more to villains than heroes, because villains are allowed to be flawed while also being sympathetic. infinity train managed to create a cast of protagonists who are exactly like that. they are more than heroes, they are people.

[bidisaster-peanut-romano]

but i think that what really gets me about bully is just how casually and painfully realistically queer it happens to be

like, bully isn't a queer game, at all. in fact, it was meant to be a rockstar, white cishet teenage boy game. ableism, misogyny and whatnot really aren't missing

many many characters have been raised in their life and shaped by the creators around the gender roles and stereotypes even, say with the jocks, and all the homophobia that comes with the all-male, tough masculine aspect and yet the physical closeness of football

but then you have all these characters who are all different shades and experiences of queerness. jimmy himself is the protagonist on whom the player can project their own way of living their own sentimental life but is mostly written as being openly and confidently bisexual, and kirby is into boys but buried so deep into the closet that even just being seen with trent is enough to make him run away, and justin adores the jocks so much and also admits thinking sometimes that he's not interested in girls and has a passion for greek sculpture, and cornelius defies all gender roles by identifying both on stage and in relationships with juliet and can also be seen by other students holding hands with boys, and troy tries so hard to force himself to stop thinking about guys and seems to have a crush on russell, and derby and bif are rumored and suggested to be together but anything that happens does away from strangers' eyes, and peanut has this attraction for both johnny and lola but they both are tied together and with him with so many layers of complicated dynamics that make the attraction confusing, and gord is graceful to the point of almost stereotypically effeminate and yet so natural and unapologetic about it, and juri says a lot that he's so sure about girls liking strong and muscular boys but also casually asks his interlocutor if they ever wondered what it would be like to be of the opposite sex, and (if he was included in the final game) bob is openly gay and mentions the casual homoeroticism of wrestling and sports, and trent is flirty and bisexual and an aspiring actor implied to be into musical, and these are just some of the canon things that come first to my mind

it's about the way being a queer teen in a homophobic society can be so confusing and lived in so many different ways and how being queer affects each and every person differently and how none of these characters are solely defined by their queerness and yet it does affect their character and personality and how it all feels so real about it