#tw ace discourse

[keebiecoo]

i will literally never get over "ace discourse" bullshit (which is still a problem! though has quieted down a bit thank gd), so much of it hinged on the presumption that no one was being really acephobic & most acephobia is "just repackaged homophobia" even though it is not, & how asexuals are just trying to start shit & it's so wrong i cannot believe how willing so many queer people were to throw us under the bus so completely

my family told me they'd rather me be gay than asexual, i went online & saw people say acephobia was just repackaged homophobia, i am in a gay relationship openly, i am an openly trans person who doesn't pass as any gender, i have experienced more targeted hate over my asexuality than any of that other stuff combined, & you fucking people ridiculed me for seeking understanding & safety online where i couldn't find it in real life, fuck

[squid-ink-on-toast]

I swear the majority of ace discourse can be chocked up to that aspec people are often not able to participate in a lot of parts of society that allo peers can, and when they found the not like the general population club (LGBTQ+) they wanted to feel included because we share similar experiences. However because this is the internet and also everyone is kinda defensive by nature many people in the LGBTQ+ took trying to bond/be included/ not forgotten as that asexuals were trying to take over and took it personally. I will also say I think aspec people have as a group, a big fear of being alone and a joking “if I’m not human than what am I, a God” tone to talking about sexuality that can come off as “thinks their above you” that can rub the wrong way easily, especially online.

[mossy-aro]

sorry but i am SO deeply tired of the 'aphobia isnt real' arguments because they are literally always being conducted in such bad faith. NO there is not specific societal or legal discrimation against aces and aros BECAUSE we are asexual and or aromantic. you cannot hold specifically bigoted beliefs towards a group you do not even know exist. there ARE, however, underlying and deeply pervasive systems and beliefs that actively erase, dehumanise and make life tangibly more difficult for aro and ace people on a social, economic and legal basis. most of this is due to hyperinvisibility, the medicalisation of any nonnormative + misunderstood orientations, the elevation of romance + romantic structures as the most important aspects of interpersonal relationships in society, as well as the nuclear atomisation of the family. among other things. like. amatonormativity has never been ABOUT aromantic people specfically oh my GOD. its simply the underlying social belief that everyone is expected to be in monogamous romantic relationships and that those relationships are expected to the default centre of one's life. its something that affects EVERYONE! but within that it affects aromantic people in a specific and heightened way because of our inability to participate in it in a societally acceptable way. like these are not 'aromantic' or 'asexual' or 'polyamorous' issues specifically. these are theories and terms that originated within feminist + queer sociology studies! its all part of the wider underlying social fabric! aspec people are simply pointing out that we are often affected by these things in unique and often unseen ways.

the idea that we believe people actively 'hate' us for being asexual or aromantic is completely ridiculous. most people i know do not even know the definition of those words! so how could they hate me for it. they could however, for example, hold the pervasive + societally unchallenged belief that not experiencing sexual or romantic attraction is a medical issue or something concerningly abnormal in a human being + something i should get fixed. and its not uncommon that when you DO explain that its simply your orientation to them, they continue to medicalise it and see it as some sort of issue. genuinely so deeply tired of having to explain this to people time and time again when they only want to cherry pick the most ridiculous arguments to respond to and then act as if that's a majority held opinion in the aspec community. like i actually think we are aware of how society views us we're not fucking deluded and stupid. we don't have victim complexes we are just pointing out facts that yall are so desperate to ignore. UGHHHHH

[certifiablyinsanez]

Mammon is great ace representation: an essay on aphobia in the Hellaverse fandom

I’m seeing a lot of people be mad about Mammon having a thing for Leviathan. And I’m going to need the fandom to step back and examine these issues, because they are 100% rooted in aphobia. I have been out as an oriented aroace person for over 10 years if you want to doubt my credentials, rather than listen to my analysis, lived experience and reflect.

So. Tell me Hellaverse fandom; why, when it comes to Alastor, who is a character who very clearly has zero interest in others, it is always a chorus of people saying “aces can have sex”, “aces can enjoy sex”, “it’s not harmful to the ace community to use Alastor for shipping material, he isn’t real and asexuality and aromanticism is a huge spectrum”, “Aroace people can still date and have sex”?

But when it comes to Mammon, he is “bad asexual representation”, he “clearly experiences sexual attraction”, “he can’t be demisexual”, etc.

No genuinely, why is this? I want you to examine this, think on it from a place of neutral examination and come to your own conclusions. Because this is a worrisome double standard. This can for starters, be an instance of fat phobia. Because out of the two of them, Alastor is thin, and therefore closer to the beauty standard, which is hysterical considering that Alastor canonically has horrible hygiene, and I don’t think I know a single person who thinks that stank ass body and breath is attractive. Mammon, as seen from the slovenly way he eats, can potentially be assumed to have poor hygiene as well, but it has a very different connotation because of his weight. [Research the connection between thin privilege and body odor/hygiene. It’s very real].

I can spend a lot of time and energy going into the shipping dynamics between the shows, as well as how Alastor is a more “shippable” character in comparison to Mammon, but I honestly don’t find this as interesting or as compelling as to what I’m about to say next.

Because aphobia in the real world is still very alive and well today. In my 10+ years of being in the ace community, I have genuinely spent a lot of emotional energy, time, knowledge, experience, and compassion, just fighting for the right to even be acknowledged as queer. I have vivid memories from when I was first out of the closet at the age of 16, telling ace people across apps and forums that they were valid, that they weren’t broken, that they were deserving of love, respect, and a place in the queer community. I was telling people, younger, my age, and older that they shouldn’t kill themselves, that they had worth beyond what they could do in the bedroom for others. I had to convince people that they didn’t owe anyone sex, and that they were in fact being sexually abused by their partners. I was on the phone with people in tears. I spent HOURS of my life in these DMs at an age where I was a suffering, mentally ill queer child that was also being victimized by aphobia. Still to this day people think the “A” stands for ally. And still to this day people have discord about our community as a whole. I have had to sit and watch as people went from loudly proclaiming with their whole chest that asexual people didn’t exist, or at the very least weren’t queer. Then years went by and it became less and less okay to say things like that, because asexual people finally had fought long enough and had supported each other enough that we discovered our voices and began to use them. So people were finally facing the consequences of saying bigoted shit.

And now that they can’t say that asexuals aren’t queer, they moved on to another group. Demisexuals. Demisexuals by far have it roughest, because while there are many micro labels in our community to explain our diverse range of experiences, demisexual is probably the most well known one. And every handful of months or so I have to use my voice once again to stand up for my people, because an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us, and people on the internet have made it clear that they have no qualms of attacking us. The asexual and aromantic community have made extremely valuable contributions to the queer community that are entirely overlooked because we are not valued in it.

And this is why I have been an outspoken proponent of my displeasure over Alastor being a character that is the most shipped with others, and my disdain for the fanbase has grown even wider after Mammons appearance in Mastermind. It is a painful reminder of all the discrimination I’ve faced over the years, that my community still goes through. Because people are contrarians. Alastor is canonically asexual, and other aspects of his character are reflective of aromanticism as well. Well, the fanbase doesn’t like this so much. If you genuinely pay attention, you’ll notice this is a trend with a lot of other aroace characters. My favorite example is Peridot from Steven Universe, a canonical aroace character. In the show, Peridot goes through a lot of unlearning and growth. The scene where she tries to fuse with Garnet has massive implications for a few reasons. Because one, she is genuine in her desire to understand Garnet, and fusion better. And two, fusion while forbidden on Homeworld, is commonplace and normal in the Crystal Gems. As a Crystal Gem, she feels this is what is now expected of her. This is a major experience in the aspec community, as living in a cis heteronormative society means that sex, marriage and children are all things expected of each individual, which is dangerous and harmful ideology to everyone, asexual/aromantic people as well. Peridot couldn’t go through with the fusion, but that didn’t stop the fandom salivating, and foaming at the mouth over a potential Lapis/Peridot fusion. People were genuinely mad at Rebecca Sugar for never making that pairing canon, when they had absolutely no right to behave the way they did. Let’s not forget how the fans also misgendered Rebecca Sugar constantly. It was absolutely bigoted.

This is happening with Alastor. Fans feel entitled to ship him with whomever, an entitlement that is not seen with other characters. When people ship Vaggie with Angel, there is backlash, and for good reason. Because people understand that despite the fact that Vivienne Medrano said people can ship whatever, shipping a gay man with a woman and a gay woman with a man is…gross. It is wrong, it is disrespectful of their identities, and is forcing heteronormativity onto characters that are strict in their sexualities. Most people are able to recognize the thinly veiled homophobia. But Alastor does not receive the same treatment, and in fact receives the opposite treatment. I don’t know what I could say to convince you that the aroace coded character in a show being the #1 most shipped is thinly veiled aphobia the same way Vaggie x Angel is thinly veiled homophobia.

Now what does that have to do with Mammon? Mammon seems to not be aroace coded like Alastor, and for some reason, that has thoroughly pissed people off. Because Mammon is not the “acceptable” caricature of an asexual person. Most allosexual (non-asexual and/or aromantic people) view being asexual as being synonymous with being aromantic, which shows a painful lack of understanding and at times respect for the diversity of our community. Alastor fits this category, so he’s an “acceptable asexual”, while also essentially being a toy for shippers. But Mammon, with his clear attraction to Leviathan, is a “bastardization” of the asexual image. When we aren’t being viewed as broken, we’re often being viewed as chaste, virginal, and innocent with attachments to infantilization. But Mammon, with his aggressive and even icky approach to flirting with Leviathan, is seen as a subversion of this, which for people who don’t understand our community, hate. And these people are blaming Vivienne for having “terrible ace rep” when in actuality, having multiple ace characters having very little in common is actually fantastic rep. Because there are many labels in our community that Mammon can fit into as an asexual. To me, he looks like a sex-positive, high libido, demisexual. He’s known Leviathan for thousands of years, of course it makes sense that he would be into her, but not into anyone else which would explain why his “posse” are just female robots. This could also be because of his classism, but I genuinely think that he’s just demisexual. And you already know how people feel about demisexuals.

If you’ve read this far and have genuinely set aside your biases and personal feelings like I requested in the beginning, I appreciate that. Because from my own lived experience, the double standard between Alastor and Mammon doesn’t annoy me; it frightens me.

Because what the fandom is actually saying when they do these things is this:

“We see you as a homogenous group. Your voices go in one ear and out the other. If you don’t conform to our values and standards, we won’t give you the respect or recognition you deserve. If you don’t conform to my view of your group, you lose my “allyship”. We do not see your identity as a sexuality in its own right, but rather a literary device we can play with. I do not care to learn more about your community, your culture, or your struggles. I barely (if at all) acknowledge you as your own sexual minority and marginalized group. I barely acknowledge (if at all) that you are queer at all. I do not care about your feelings about societal biases that I might carry, I don’t care about how you’ve lived it, because it takes away my fun and fantasies. Because I devalue your group as a whole, your voices mean little. Your narrative is mine to do with as I please.”

I really hope you can see my perspective and understand the sincere place this comes from. Thanks for reading.

[coolaidstain]

TIL that theres aphobes on Tumblr trying to claim that Jughead Jones has actually been gay coded the whole time and that saying he's ace is homophobic I fucking hate it here

[gray-ace-space]

i don't often make posts like this, but hey if no one else wants to say it i will. i am sick of how normalized sex negativity and homophobia are in the ace community. and most people who act this way will vehemently deny they're homophobic, but guess who sex negativity ends up hurting the most? the people whose sexualities are considered deviant. you can hate sex to whatever degree, you can be mad at allonormativity, you can and should establish boundaries. but when you shame others for being sexual (even if they're loud about it, even if you can't comprehend the appeal), you are crossing a line. "ohh allos are so creepy and gross" fuck off.

[aroacesafeplaceforall]

I don’t think I’ll ever forgive old tumblr for the shit it did to the asexual movement.

The fact some people just moved on from that by deleting posts, accounts, side blogs but never apologising or doing anything to mend the harm they caused speaks volumes.

Some people are still active to this day, some who actively posted against asexual people, who made hate blogs for them, who liked and reblogged every single post under the tags, who only ever liked 3 posts but still supported them.

There’s no apologies on the internet; no fully true ones especially not on public socials like tumblr, TikTok, twitter and instagram (I’ll give leeway to platforms like discord as it’s a more inclosed community). So while I wouldn’t have accepted the apology it would have been nice to fucking receive one

[januscorner]

A-spec discourse is stupid but especially if you’re not a-spec stay the fuck out of a-spec discouse. No one wants to hear what you think about sex favorable aces Natalie

[aroace-people-are-lgtbq]

if aroace people are LGBT+, this means people who choose not to have romantic or sexual relationships are LGBT+, yes? then that makes The Pope queer. you know your definiton of LGBT+ is wrong when it includes the fucking pope

not involving yourself with sex or romance is valid and ok, but you surely cannot claim that the oppression you face is the same when a) practicing aroaceness is literally a requirement to head the largest religious organisation on earth and b) that same largest religious organisation on earth has for centuries persecuted and murdered LGBT+ people.

if aroace people are LGBT+, this means people who choose not to have romantic or sexual relationships are LGBT+, yes?

No? Why would it? Being aroace is not the same as "not involving yourself with sex or romance." The first is an orientation that fundamentally changes the way I experience the world, and the latter is a choice

Absolutely wild take

-Mod Ama

[melovibes57]

By saying, “The queer community is only for people who experience same sex attraction.” You’re not only erasing asexual people, you’re erasing all the other labels that make up the LGBTQIA+ community. You’re also giving bigots a “i was right all along” satisfaction.

By making that statement, you’re pretty much telling queerphobes that they were right all along when they said “Queer people base their entire identity & existence on who they have sex with but get angry when we hyper sexualize them and “call them out” for their sexual deviancy then they have the audacity to call us discriminatory (bigots).”

You wouldn’t give a weapon to someone who wants to harm people, so why would you make a safe space for bigots to spread their bigotry? Why would you actively discriminate against other queer people knowing you wouldn’t like it or having been through it and knowing how that negatively affected you mentally?! It’s telling bigots they have every right to be discriminatory too. 😒🤦🏽‍♀️

[aceoffangirls]

So just found out about all this shitty aro discourse and it’s horrible. People say aro people aren’t queer enough or oppressed enough. Is that what it means to be LGBTQIA+.

For a community that talks about being so accepting we need to have a good look in the mirror. The community is also filled with Racism, Misogyny, Transphobia, Biphobia and hell even Lesbians get shit on.

Many ace and aro people are told similar things to other queer people that “we haven’t met the right person yet”, “you are to young to know”, “that’s a medical condition”, or even the fact that we feel isolated by our own community.

There are also many struggles that ace and aro people face including worried that if you talk to a doctor about it they are going to blame it on hormones. In a lot of countries where conversion therapy is illegal for queer people or where queer people have their rights protected, asexual and aromatic people are often left out with conversion therapy and corrective rape being a big thing some aces have to face.

They are also one of the most misunderstood queer orientations with countless media, books and queer people misunderstanding, the complexity and fluidity of asexuality and aromamtism.

Many ace and aro people even doubt there sexuality for so long because how can you tell what you are supposed to be feeling if you have nothing to compare it to.

Being queer or lgbtqia+ has nothing to do with meeting a certain standard of what you deem "queer enough" or being "oppressed enough". It is falling out of the social norm and not experiencing the status quo that everyone is cisgender and straight , that everyone experiences sexual and romantic attraction. Its being one or some or multiple of others and loving yourself anyways.

[rpgchoices]

You know as an ace person I don't really pursue relationships, and I have been kinda extremely private about my sexuality with RL people. I have never experienced full on acephobia directly in real life, a part from, well, the usual "you will have sex one day, don't worry" etc.

But I got asked to kill myself by an astarion fan yesterday because I said Astarion is ace? Apparently "He cannot be ace, it is just the trauma, he was in love with people before, and he had sex in the last scene of his good ending".... okay? Why is there this idea that ace people cannot EVER be or want to be in relationships or even have sex? Furthermore, I don't KNOW if he is ace, he probably was not written as ace, but why is it so important for you if I call him ace? So much that you need to tell me to kms? Like, what is not clicking? Is the word ace really that bad. There is no "recipe" for a good ace, some people have trauma, you cannot say "Then you can't be ace, that is your trauma, you need from heal from it and you will feel sexual attraction again."

And I know they are one of those users who hate the idea of sexualizing Astarion in art and fics (personally I do not care, he is not real, he is a character), so it is not that they need to see him as this extremely sexually active character... it is just the word asexual, apparently.

Let people call Astarion ace and headcanon him as ace, as long as they don't go around insulting and invalidating other headcanons it is fine.

[mossy-aro]

huh

[thegoldencontracts]

So much fandom discourse has me thinking 'is this actually problematic or are you just trying to justify not liking it'

[sailormoonsailorstars]

jkr caused damages to every minority she targets publicly, not just trans people, hope this helps

[hidden-impish-creature]

Since Tumblr spat some ace discourse onto my dash like it's 2014...

"Cishet aroace" is an oxymoron. If someone is both asexual and aromantic, they cannot be cisHET because they are neither heterosexual nor heteroromantic. They're not het so they're not cishet. Simple as.

Cishet asexuals can exist because they can still be cisgender and heteroromantic. Cishet aromantics can exist because they can still be cisgender and heterosexual. Cishet aces and cishet aros are real and can be referred to as such.

But there are no "cishet aroaces" because they're not het. If they're both asexual and aromantic, then they aren't attracted to the opposite gender in any way. And that's literally what the "het" in "cishet" means. It's short for "hetero." So you can't exclude aroaces from the LGBTQ+ community solely on the basis that they're cishet. You need to use an argument that doesn't hinge on aroaces being straight, because they're not.

I'm not saying that cishet aces or cishet aros are part of the LGBTQ+ community. I don't really care. I've yet to even encounter one, which makes me wonder if this discourse was ever really about them. The problem here is that people try to use the same argument for people who literally cannot be cishet.

Seeing posts about "cishet aroaces" following that "cishet aro man" poll is giving me psychic damage. Where is the "het" part coming from? You people literally made up a cishet aro to get mad at and then decided that everyone who is aro must also be cishet, even if they're also ace and therefore don't fit half of what that word means.

I've had people in my ask box on my main blog calling me cishet even though I'm openly an ace lesbian dating another girl. Again, where is the "het" part coming from? Does being ace magically make my attraction to other women straight?

Use your brains. Words have meanings, and "cishet" means "cis and het," not "anyone who is aro or ace, regardless of their other identities." Tumblr discourse has misused that word so much, I don't know how to refer to actual cishets without going out of my way to make it clear I mean actual cishets. It's so fucking annoying. You're changing the meaning of important terminology to make it fit whoever you want to exclude. I love this hellsite but sometimes I worry.