#I think what makes a villain a villain is the harm they're willing to cause on the way to their goal

[sysig]

What makes a villain a villain for you? Idk very broad question no wrong answers to it

I tend to conflate "villain" and "antagonist" - or at least antagonistic, if they're a main character like Charm is haha - someone who impedes others, who seeks to do harm, who is in some way uncontrollable and therefore dangerous. I also tend to like villains that have someone or something to rage against, very Megamind haha - "If there's bad, good will rise up against it."

Villains can be as complex or simplistic as you like, which is very fun! Some villains like to be evil for funsies! Some are tortured! Some don't realize that what they're doing is harmful! Yves is great example of a BBEG who has only good intentions imo (and coincidentally, is also modeled after my own ADHD lol, I have something of a soft spot for dysregulated villains haha)

One of my favourite aspects of the True Villainy AU, and kind of Just Desserts S2 as a whole, is how different types of villains look and move in that world - Charm was seduced by thoughts of revenge that stemmed from loneliness and bitterness, where Kaiein is a manipulative asshole who gets his kicks from causing chaos from the sidelines. Their motivations are very different, but they both do harm, and are both stopped! Villains ✨

[writers-potion]

Writing Morally Gray Characters

Morally gray antagonists and heroes can bring up many interesting questions about your story's theme and plot. Yes, your hero does want to save the world, but resorts to cruel ways of bringing peace?

Being morally gray can also mean that the character is highly goal- oriented and values efficiency and success over anything.

Deceiving Appearances

As is true in real life, a person's intentions aren't always obvious. A character, their title, background or really just how they look might at first indicate they're the hero type but surprise - they're not.

By hiding ulterior motives behind more apparent ones, you can add depth to your morally gray characters. Appearances can be deceiving, and that makes for a juicy read.

Morally Gray vs. Villains

Morally gray characters and villains are not strictly one and the same. Yes, there is overlap-they can be villains-but the distinctions are there nonetheless.

I don't think having a dark past to provide motivations for morally gray characters is too effective. They do intend to harm others, and sometimes, that's just the way they are.

Recognition

Your morally gray character should recognize that their choices can cause harm, intentionally or otherwise.

Although he's willing to risk the chance in his pursuit of knowledge, he does actively recognize that his actions can result in negative consequences. He sometimes acknowledges this before he does something, and sometimes only in hindsight.

Remorse

They must understand and experience remorse. When the consequences of their actions wreck and story world and kills people around her, she would certainly have regrets and even struggle to undo what she did.

The point here is, she won't regret until she has already caused the wreckage.

Redemption

Finally, when even they feel things have gone too far, your morally gray character must seek redemption however that manifests itself in your story.

For all their logic and reasoning, they are not without feeling. They can grow to care for other characters and go out of their way to help them at times, even save their life.

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[thedemonsurfer]

hi I'm talking about Ruin again

My kingdom for more fancontent with Ruin, especially post-Thanos snap.

Like! Authors were barely using him before, maybe a few fics with him shipped with Solar-- and then the Thanos snapping happened and now there's NOTHING (okay there's not nothing, but at the time of writing this, there are about twoish ongoing fics focused on him and a handful of others where he's a participating character)

AND LIKE. THAT'S SUCH A SHAME??? Ruin went from "alright youre kind of boring as an antagonist" to "I guess you're cute now that you're cured" to EXTREMELY interesting.

He's a villain that isn't an antagonist! He takes Sun's hero complex and Moon's martyr complex to the extreme! The only goal he had was to get rid of the threat offered by the creators, in a permanent and complete way-- and nothing else. He holds no ill will towards anyone else--hell, he's so willing to work with people that he doesn't personally like that it keeps throwing him off when others don't think the same way (like showing up to ask for Moon's help and getting tossed into baby jail and strangled instead).

He doesn't like causing harm. He made certain to stress that the whole dimensional evaporation thing wasn't painful, and he despises Dark Sun for being a sadist. He did his best to sabatogue Bloodmoon’s plan and minimize the damage to Earth.

He's desperate to be helpful and useful to others-- even if they keep taking from him without his consent, he still keeps volunteering. He also has a hilarious response of being belligerent when annoyed with someone, like pretending not to know about the wither shard.

He's exceptionally traumatized. Can you imagine what it was like running around for 50 years pretending you're infected, all the while watching the mental and physical deterioration of everyone you know-- and knowing it's YOUR fault they're like this? And it was the person who MADE you, your actual literal Creator, who first started the infection?

And he has no hope. Everything Ruin has done since Thanos snapping the dimensions has been a kind of filler for him, because he expects to die soon. Actually he's lived longer than I think he expected and didn't really know what to do with himself for a while in there. When/if Dark Sun or Nexus feeds him to the witherstorm, I'll be surprised if he tries to fight back.

Also he keeps getting kidnapped and imprisoned, which is kind of funny. I think we're up to 4 kidnappings, 2 jailbreaks, and 4 imprisonments.

Just like... he's a fascinating guy with strong personal motives, and a much more agreeable personality than our other strongly motivated ex-antagonist, Eclipse. There's a lot of potential to work with, and how to get him out of the hole he's dug himself into. Overcoming the whole "I erased 5000 dimensions, including one that your family member came from, and also indirectly caused a different family member to leave" is just one of the challenges!

I know it's not an issue of "but he's hurt/killed one of the other characters!" Because -points at Blood Moon and Eclipse-. Both (all five? six?) have killed other main characters and been antagonists, and it hasn't stopped folks from writing them. Hell, Eclipse killed his own estranged brother for no reason other than petty revenge, and folks still somehow make it work.

So yeah idk. I think Ruin is really interesting and deserves a bit more attention.

[vaguelyaperson]

as much as i understand shigaraki's death, narratively speaking, i'm also so goddamn tired of society needing martyrs.

what made me fall in love with shigaraki is that he's an excellent villain. all his character development built towards him becoming a more competent, driven, effective villain. he became an incredible symbol of fear just as deku became an incredible symbol of peace. this is who he was, in entirety. there is nothing else shigaraki could be.

when shigaraki told izuku, in his final moments, to pass on the message to spinner that "shigaraki fought to destroy until the very end," it really emphasized how it would have dishonored him to be vegeta'd, as it were.

shigaraki made it his mission to tear down hero society. this was his noble mission. this is what made him a hero to the league of villains. because he saw the systemic evils, he saw the evils that hurt his friends, and sought to destroy it all.

there's something to be said about trying to change someone who doesn't want to change, but for shigaraki, it was more than just trying to rehabilitate him from mass murdering. because to him, and the league of villains, what he was doing WAS the right thing. to tell shigaraki not to destroy would be akin to telling deku not to save. "you may not understand, but that's what makes me the villain."

there was a binary choice here: either he'd be left free to complete his mission and destroy everything, or he'd be stopped, permanently.

Izuku, by reaching tenko's heart, but ultimately stopping shigaraki, was choosing the only third option he had: declaring that he would not let all of society be destroyed, but not without promising that he'd do everything he can to reform it here on out.

shigaraki destroys. deku saves.

that's it. that's the bnha narrative in its most basic foundation. horikoshi did not fail to tell that story.

I think what ultimately fucking sucks about this ending is that it's too realistic. society often DOES need a martyr - or often martyrs - to realize that they fucked up, that they let an evil persist too long. they need a shocking enough tragedy to point to and swear they'll never let it happen again. society needs to be rocked to its very core before people can be motivated to get their heads out of their asses and work together towards reforms.

and that in itself is an evil, that people can't see how much harm they're causing or condoning without some horrific tragedy.

i think we're all mad at horikoshi for failing to follow through on the story because we didn't WANT the realistic ending. we wanted the hopeful one. the against all odds one. we didn't want another story about society using the image of martyrs to get its shit together. because we already know that story. and we're so so so tired of it.

especially when we know it only leads to a temporary peace.

because people forget. they put in enough reforms to feel good, and then get comfortable and ignorant again. when does that cycle end? when can we finally notice the evil in time to PREVENT it? so that everyone, 'heroes and villains,' get a happy ending?

I think our anger with the bnha ending is good. we want different - not just in fiction, but in real life. we're willing to hope for different. we should hold onto hope and fight for different.

[commander-revan]

So, with this long and agonizing break between chapters, I decided to read through Horikoshi's other works to get a sense of how he's ended his stories before and to see how he's treated his other series antagonists.

And after reading through everything, I'm now feeling more hopeful than I was before that Tomura and the rest of the LoV are going to survive to the end, and that they won't be left to rot in a prison either.

Starting with Oumagadoki Zoo, his first actual series, about a zoo with a director cursed to look like a rabbit that can transform the other animals in the zoo into humans. The main character, Hana, starts working there and decides to help them make it a world renowned zoo so that the curse on the director will be lifted.

Throughout the series they encounter other cursed humans that lead their own respective groups, one at an aquarium and another at a circus, however unlike the Zoo's director they're self-serving, cruel, and willing to use and toss away their subordinates once they've served their purpose in order to break their own curses.

But at the end of it all, after they've been defeated, they're invited to stay back at the zoo, and are given a second chance.

One of them even starts breaking their curse at the end, because love and caring for others is ultimately what can turn them human again.

Barrage's antagonist, Black, feels a lot closer to home in his motivations. Reflecting the same disappointment in society that the LoV feels in My Hero. He was a loyal soldier to the king fighting against corruption, until he starts seeing the kingdom becoming more corrupt over time due to war.

His initial desire to change things for the better became warped to the point where he only wanted to destroy. The same thing that happened to the League's motivations.

But, in the end, instead of executing him for all the harm he caused, they decide to let him atone by contributing to society in a way only he can.

Going back to Horikoshi's first published work, the Tenko one-shot, while Tenko's not quite a villain in that series, he does still accidentally kill his mother with his abilities, but he really only wants to destroy weapons so warriors won't exist anymore. Which echoes Tomura's desire to rid the world of heroes. But his mother's dying wish was for him to let go of hate, and find a way to use his power for good.

At the end of the story he finally realizes what his mother wanted for him, learns that a true warrior is one that protects others, and is able to find a new purpose in life.

With all of that taken into account, how in Horikoshi's stories the villains are allowed to live and are given another chance at life to find new purpose, whether they even want that or like the protagonists or not, I think Tenko will return and the rest of the League of Villains will survive in the end as well.

Horikoshi's stories always seem to be about hope, the connections we make, and how those bonds can change us for the better despite what happened in the past, and I don't see why that would change at the end of My Hero when those themes have always been so present throughout the entire series. I guess we'll find out in a few days, but I believe Tomura and the LoV will make it through this, and be given a chance to atone, to start over and find new purpose and help society change so what happened to them doesn't happen again.

I'll end this off with what Horikoshi wrote about Tenko when it was published, because the last sentence seems more relevant than ever now.

[withthewindinherfootsteps]

So we know that Wei Wuxian's treatment after his death was horrible. Even if nothing could impact him directly, there was still neverending slander, hatred, misinformation, theft...

But, for a while after he died, the sects did try to impact him directly – namely, frequently trying to resummon his soul. And today I'll explore the possible reasons for this, their likelihoods, and why I'm so, so thankful that Wei Wuxian's soul managed to resist the summons. Because, spoiler alert (or, you know. maybe not)... none of them are good.

(Long meta ahead)

In my opinion, there are four likely motivations for this: confinement, coercion, torment, and potentially destruction.

Out of all of these, confinement is probably the most likely motivation, at least for most sects (Jins and Jiangs excluded, though it was likely what the Jin sect said their motivations were – but I'll get to them later). This one is the most simple – we know spirit-trapping pouches exist, and we know the sects also placed 120 stone beasts on the Burial Mounds to prevent Wei Wuxian's soul from escaping. Therefore, this seems to be the most likely motivation – and fortunately for Wei Wuxian, probably also the best case scenario, though it still certainly isn't a good one.

For the second, coercion – this is where the Jin sect come in (more specifically Jin Guangshan with the help of Jin Guangyao). Due to their wealth and resources, they're likely the sect who played the largest role in the soul-summoning rituals. We know what they're willing to do to try to gain power – keeping Wen Ning under the pretence he was burned to death and trying to control him with the nails, and working with and helping Xue Yang torture people to help him refine his demonic cultivation, in order to have the Yin hufu fixed. Along with working with many other cultivators, alongside Xue Yang – Jin Guangshan really, really wanted that seal.

And so, Jin GuangShan sought after all those who imitated Wei WuXian in cultivating the ghostly path and gathered them under his rule. He spent a great amount of money and resources and these people, ordering them to study and analyze the structure of the Tiger Seal in secrecy so that they could replicate and restore it. - Villainous Friends extra, EXR

(Note that working with these cultivators very likely happened after Wei Wuxian's soul had failed to be summoned, since this happens some time after Wei Wuxian's death, whereas the soul-summoning ceromonies presumably started happening very close to it.)

In the previous paragraph, he's also quoted as having 'lusted after' the Yin hufu, which we already knew but it's nice to have a direct quote as evidence.

Now, would Wei WuXian willingly work with the Jin sect in doing this? No. We know that, and, given Wei Wuxian's actions in his first life (refusing to hand over the Tally, not being afraid to stand up to the sects, etc), I’m pretty sure Jin Guangshan knows that, too:

He beat around the bush a couple of times, using all his skills, yet Wei WuXian didn’t give in no matter what, and it made him run into a bunch of obstacles. - Villainous Friends extra, EXR

So this could actually make things go two ways. One, I'm wrong and that wasn't actually part of the Jin sect's motivations, since they know they wouldn't be able to control him (and in that case, had they managed to summon him, I could imagine them putting him in a spirit-trapping pouch and doing something similar to what Jin Guangyao did to Nie Mingjue's head. Which, also, not good). Two, it was a part of their motivations, and they hoped to find a way around that. After all, there are other guidao users out there now, and Wei Wuxian would now be a gui*. Also, cultivators can obviously harm ghosts – see the very existence of Night Hunts, and I'd include Xue Yang's talisman-caused destruction of A-Qing as well (while he isn't a traditional cultivator, talismans can be used by everyone).

Now, would either of these methods actually work? I'm inclined to think not really (and I expand on the former method in a note below). Would that stop Jin Guangshan/Jin Guangyao/the cultivators they employ from trying? Especially considering Jin Guangshan's lust for power?

I'm inclined to think no, too.

For the third, look no further than Jiang Cheng's reputation of capturing and torturing demonic cultivators after Wei Wuxian's death, due to thinking they could be him. And this does happen – Jin Ling knows and talks about it, and there's not real motivation for him to negatively lie about someone he loves. Also, when they come across each other at Dafan Mountain, we're told this in Jiang Cheng's inner voice:

A moment ago, Jiang Cheng was certain that this person was Wei WuXian, and all of the blood in his body started to boil. Yet, now, Zidian was clearly telling him that he wasn’t. Zidian definitely wouldn’t deceive him or make a mistake, so he quickly calmed himself and thought, this doesn’t mean anything. I should first find an excuse to take him back and use every possible method to get information out of him. It’s impossible for him to not confess anything or give himself away. I’ve done things like this in the past anyways. - MDZS Chapter 10, EXR translation

This mainly shows that he's tortured people before, rather than that he's tortured people because he thinks they're Wei Wuxian, but this reason is confirmed by Jin Ling in Chapter 24. Of course, the reason is also mentioned in this chapter, and there are other moments in the chapter that illustrate my point better**, but they come from second-hand sources which I know are easier to deny. Do take note of Jiang Cheng's expression both times he comes across 'Mo Xuanyu' (after he suspects he's Wei Wuxian) in Book One***, though:

After a moment, the corners of Jiang Cheng’s lips pulled into a twisted smile. His left hand started to unconsciously stroke the ring [Zidian] again. He spoke softly, “… Well, well. So you’re back?” - Chapter 10, EXR Although his face had always been clouded, marked with arrogance and satire, it seemed as if every corner of it had come alive. It was difficult to determine whether it was vengeful wrath, fathomless hatred, or raving ecstasy. - Chapter 23, EXR

This does seem to line up with what people say his attitude to Wei Wuxian is – there doesn't seem to be any happiness at seeing him again at all. The only time a word that could suggest that ('ecstasy') is used, it's accompanied by 'raving', and considering the context and the other possibilities of his expression, it's... probably not due to happiness at being reunited.

So, considering 1) this, 2) his contribution to the Siege specifically intended to kill Wei Wuxian, and 3) that at the time of frequent soul-summoning Jiang Yanli's death would be even closer for him, I feel pretty confident in saying that yes, this is likely a motivation for the Jiang sect in trying to re-summon Wei Wuxian's soul after his death. And, as mentioned earlier, cultivators can harm ghosts (and we know Zidian is able to remove souls posessing a body from that body, and that Jiang Cheng used Zidian on 'Mo Xuanyu' in Chapter 10. If it wasn't able to restrain/harm ghosts, or other methods weren't able to, why would he risk Wei Wuxian's soul escaping?).

And finally, option four: destruction. We're heading into much more speculative territory here, so don't consider this on par with the first three. But consider this:

We know there are some spells, like Xue Yang's talisman used on A-Qing and the body-offering ritual, that can ruin the returning soul’s reincarnation cycle by destroying it. Therefore, soul destruction is possible.

The 'main'/supposed reason for summoning Wei Wuxian's soul back is to stop the "cultivation world, or even all of mortal land" from being "faced with the most insane damnation and revenge, sinking into nothing but chaos and despair" when Wei Wuxian inevitably returns. While, as mentioned above, I severely doubt this is the motivation for certain sects – and to me is likely a rumour which the Jins (again, especially Jin Guangsha) fanned the flames of to justify summoning Wei Wuxian back for their own purposes**** – there are other sects which would take it more seriously.

Although likely disrespectful, people already thought it served Wei Wuxian right to die without his body intact by the time of the second siege – something believed to negatively affect your reincarnation in your next life*****. This is only the logical next step, and I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people would believe that, again, it would serve Wei Wuxian right, or would at least lead to less harm of the world in the long run.

For these reasons, I could definitely see this as an option for some sects, especially the sects who consider themselves more 'righteous' (cough cough the Nies under Nie Mingjue cough cough). After all, evil is evil and good is good, and the evil deserve what's coming to them. And what better way to prevent that than from preventing his soul from returning at all? So for the Nie sect – and likely some of the smaller sects involved in the Siege, since among them, additudes probably vary – yes, I do think it could be a motivation.

I’m not as sure about the Lans being willing to go this far, and that’s largely for two reasons. One, Lan Wangji’s presence and his relationship to Lan Xichen, who does (not always, but he does) let this affect how he treats Wei Wuxian. An example of this is that, when Wei Wuxian's return is made public, Lan Xichen does let him hide and shelter at the Cloud Recesses instead of trying to pursue him, likely majorly due to Lan Wangji. I'd argue that the aftermath of the Nightless City also acts as an example of this, although it definitely isn't perfect. But though he, Lan Qiren and the 33 elders do come to find Lan Wangji and do not let him continue to shelter Wei Wuxian (after they see Lan Wangji's feelings), Lan Xichen doesn't use this opportunity to kill/capture Wei Wuxian, despite Lan Wangji being in a worse condition due to having fought 33 elders, Wei Wuxian being catatonic, and Lan Qiren likely supporting this outcome (especially considering he was the one who led the Lan sect in the Siege – chapter 68, Wei Wuxian's POV). And he did let Lan Wangji take Wei Wuxian back to the Burial Mounds after:

After he went out of his way to send you back to Burial Mound and returned in such low spirits to receive his punishment, how long he kneeled before the Wall of Rules! - Chapter 99, EXR

Again, this was right after the Nightless City massacre – there isn't any goodwill towards Wei Wuxian at this point in time.

Of course, the Lan sect did participate in the siege after Lan Xichen knew of Lan Wangji's feelings towards Wei Wuxian, which Lan Xichen was no doubt a part of (although Lan Qiren lead the Lan sect in the siege, Lan XIchen had to have at least known/given his support, if not participated.) And it should be considered that Lan Xichen letting Wei Wuxian shelter at the Cloud Recesses was after Wei Wuxian had been back for a while, and had not caused the downfall of the Cultivation World, like many suspected he would after his death. And of course, as stated previously, his handling of the aftermath of Nightless City wasn't perfect either (though please note that his main motive here was to protect Lan Wangji from being potentially executed, rather than anything about Wei Wuxian himself). So caring about Lan Wangji doesn't mean he won't harm Wei Wuxian. But I do think he could find bringing Wei Wuxian's soul back to completely destroy it a bit excessive. There is, though, the chance that the elders of the Lan Sect would react to this differently, and of course they would have a sway on both Lan Xichen and the Lan sect as well.

The second reason is smaller, but there seems to be more focus in the Lan sect than in others when it comes to letting ghosts rest peacefully/helping them move on. And that could definitely lead to more resistance to the idea of summoning a soul back to destroy it as well, which could especially impact the elders. So I'd assume that the Lan sect would be the most likely sect to summon Wei Wuxian's soul back just for confinement, or just for some way of making sure any resentment is disippated, his spirit moves on, and he can't cause more harm to the world (eg via Inquiry)******. Not that he would or does as a ghost or as a reborn person, but that's unfortunately not relevant to this.

But yes, as a motivation for the Nie Mingjue-led Nie sect? Absolutely.

So, these are the main motives I suspect to be behind the attempted summoning of Wei Wuxian's soul after his death (and if I've missed any, please let me know – I'd love to have a discussion). And, of course, none of them lead to anywhere good. Because of course it wasn’t enough to besiege Wei Wuxian, murder the 50 non-combatants he was responsible for (and throwing them into the blood pit as a mark of disrespect because why not?), and lead to his death via him getting torn apart. It wasn’t enough to steal all his inventions, and use them commonly while still slandering him with no reprieve – or to steal his notes and give them to people like Xue Yang to study (Villainous Friends, again) and to use for their own, extremely extremely harmful, purposes. Of course, the cultivation world has to try to harm Wei Wuxian after death as well ((:

We don't know whether Wei Wuxian rejecting the summoning ceremonies was conscious or unconscious, but if it was the former, these are very likely reasons he refused to return in this way. If it was unconscious – for example, maybe during the frequent soul-summons his soul was in a weakened state due to him dying from a backlash of resentful energy and getting torn apart, and it healed over time but not before the soul-summoning rituals stopped – well, I can only be thankful.

Finally, let me leave you on the thought that – although it may well have happened since we don't spend much time in the immediate aftermath of the Sunshot campaign – there isn't even any textual mention of this happening to Wen Ruohan. Who, while not being a guidao user, was still very dangerous, still an extremely powerful cultivator, and still had a lot of reason to feel resentment. So.

:')

Thank you for reading!

--

*Considering what we see of how Wei Wuxian's guidao functions – redirecting the ghosts'/corpses' resentment into doing something they'd want to do, eg attacking people, and directing it towards a target – I'm not sure using it to force a spirit to do something 1) extremely specific, and 2) explicitly against their will would actually work. Iirc the closest thing we get to this in text is Wei Wuxian using the corpses of Wens to attack other Wens in the Sunshot Campaign, but he's still just directing their resentment to a target of his choice, and fierce corpses do tend to be on the less concious side of things (hence why Wei Wuxian had to awaken Wen Ning's consciousness). Considering how Wen Ning attacks Wei Wuxian and the Burial Mound Wens before his consciousness had fully awoken, I... really don't think those fierce corpses were able to differentiate (or didn't care).

Meanwhile, ghosts seem to be a bit more in control of themselves – see A-Qing, and Wei Wuxian's own descriptions of his ghost self.

That, alongside ghost!Wei Wuxian being able to resist his soul-summoning and the fact that pretty much all of the new guidao users are a lot weaker than he was, does make me think that this this wouldn't work. I do wonder about Xue Yang, since his methods are pretty different as well, but he's more of a modao user than a guidao user (he controls living corpses rather than dead people) and I don't think you can insert physical nails into ghosts?? Though if he was specifically instructed to figure out some way to control ghost!Wei Wuxian (who's probably kept in a spirit-trapping pouch in this scenario), he might be able to do something at least. Though also he was also struggling to piece Xiao Xingchen's ghost soul back together, so he may struggle with those areas?

Well, whatever the potential outcome, I'm so so happy once again that Wei Wuxian's soul managed to resist the soul-summonings...

**Mainly this:

Everyone in the cultivation world knew that the young leader of the Jiang Clan watched out for Wei WuXian in an almost crazed manner. He would rather catch the wrong person than let go of any possibility, and took anyone who seemed like they held the soul of Wei WuXian away to the YunmengJiang Sect, inflicting severe torture on his victim. If he wanted to take someone back, the opposition would surely lose half of their life. - Chapter 10, EXR

But I have heard people say 'you can't prove that it's just more rumours' before, and I wanted my evidence to be as watertight as possible.

(And, off-topic... isn't it really sad how Jiang Cheng, in the present day, is described as young? Because, for a clan leader, he is. And another thing he is, is close in age to Wei Wuxian – who was killed 13 whole years prior :') )

***And do note that the only other time they run into each other before Wei Wuxian's identity is revealed to the world apart from this is their brief interaction at Jinlintai, where he can't just act however he wants. The next time they run into each other after it, Jiang Cheng is literally taking part in another siege against him, and still extremely hostile ("surrounded by hostile energy, face insidious, staring straight at him" – from EXR chapter 60). Then he loses his spiritual powers and can't do anything. By the time he regains his powers, Wei Wuxian, Lan Wangji and the Wen remnants' corpses have saved everyone during the Second Siege, and though public opinion hasn't properly shifted quite yet, it will soon after Sisi and Bicao tell the story of Jin Guangyao, and voila, a new scapegoat (do note that he doesn't completely bar Wei Wuxian from entering Lotus Pier after the Second Siege, though). Plus, throughout it all, Lan Wangji is still constantly present, which makes it hard for Jiang Cheng to really do anything. And then he's finally faced with the Golden Core reveal, which does alter his motivations towards Wei Wuxian (obviously the resentment is still there – read chapter 102 – but it's also mixed with other complex emotions, and he seems to start being able to move away from that a little in Chapter 103). I still definitely wouldn't describe Jiang Cheng's attitude towards him as positive, but it isn't at the point it was at the start of the novel (eg Chapter 10).

But even if his attitude does change, or would for whatever other reason apart from the reveal, that still doesn't change an initial motivation so isn't relevant to this meta. We know his intentions at the start.

****It's also possible they may have originated it, but I think WWX's reputation was bad enough for it to form naturally. Though you can trace a major part of that back to them, too.

*****That belief isn't outright stated in MDZS, but the fact people are specifically talking about the status of WWX's body in the aftermath of his death suggests that this belief does have some grounding in the MDZS universe, at least? And we know MXTX has included it in TGCF (though that doesn't mean it's definitely in MDZS), so she has used it in her works. If this isn't the case in the MDZS universe I am sorry (although that could also mean there's less importance placed on not disturbing the reincarnation cycle in the world of MDZS...? Which would work towards my original argument) – I don't want to spread misinformation that something is definitely true, I just think there's evidence to suggest it is true, which isn't the same thing.

******Again, I think this would depend on who ends up having more influence over who in the Lan sect. After all, normal resentful spirits only do what they do because of their resentment in death, whereas Wei Wuxian is 'dangerous' because of who everyone thinks he was in life – so him being reborn naturally could also 'cause a lot of harm to the world' during the time period this version of him would live in, unlike the resentful ghosts they appease. This could definitely lead to many advocating for confinement, I think.

[proudproship]

Not so friendly reminder that creating "dark" or "taboo" fiction can be a sign of childhood trauma!

More below the cut. Warning: long post.

TW: Mentions of trauma, child abuse, and paraphilias

Hi. I'm someone who studies psychology and sociology, and someone who also happens to have an interest in this shipping discourse stuff.

So, back to what I said a few paragraphs ago: Creating "dark" or "taboo" fictional content can be a sign of childhood trauma.

How?

When a child goes through something they consider traumatic, their brain will play the situation on repeat subconsciously, which can cause hypervigilance and symptoms of PTSD.

A common sign of PTSD in young children is that they will reenact their trauma with things like dolls, drawings, figures, and basically any other thing they can use to express their thoughts.

For example, a child who has gone through physical abuse may reenact similar things with their toys, such as making their dolls hit or yell at each other.

This symptom isn't limited to children, though. It is a symptom closely related to the presence of flashbacks and nightmares.

Many artists will create a "self-insert" character, "sona," or a character who is otherwise much like it's creator; when an artist creates a character like this and also has past trauma, their symptoms may reflect onto their character.

Projecting yourself onto characters can happen with other characters as well, even if you didn't make the character.

This is a healthy symptom. It shows that the brain is willing to become stronger from their trauma.

Reenacting trauma in ways that aren't harmful can help the brain process what happened to them, and can even help them deal with their trauma directly.

In order to heal trauma, you must know what your trauma is; you can't heal a wound you don't know you have.

While dark fiction creators are indulging in positive healing mechanisms, certain people will shun them for doing so.

"Antishippers" claim to be the "heroes" and to support healing, even though the thing that makes someone be considered and antishipper is if they're "anti healing through fiction."

Antishippers will throw the same ableist rhetorics around by claiming "if you ship adult x child you're a pedophile!" or "if you have age gap ships (even if both are consenting adults) you're a pedophile!"

This, not only is it hurting trauma survivors (especially those who have been harmed by those with paraphilic disorders), it is hurting EVERY disabled person.

Armchair diagnosis is not something anyone should do.

It is when there is little to no evidence that the condition exists within a person, though people still throw labels onto them to make them seem like they're a "bad guy." (Usually.)

This is also hurting people with actual paraphilias. Paraphilic disorder is real condition characterized by intrusive thoughts of a (usually abnormal or harmful-if-acted-on) sexual nature.

Even if someone claims to not be ableist but still demonizes and villainizes paraphilias, they're ableist.

Ableism is ableism.

And before an anti decides to call me a "pedo-apologist," go right ahead! You don't know what you're saying anyways.

There is a difference between a criminal and a disabled person.

Proship people do not support abuse. Anyone who claims to be proship but still supports abuse is NOT proship.

---

Of course anyone who makes dark content doesn't have to have past trauma.

There are many people who make dark content that don't have what they'd consider trauma, or think their trauma is unrelated to the content they create.

What if they did experience something traumatic in the future?

They'd be able to cope with it better, because they'd seen it in fiction before, so they'd know the impact of it, and how they could handle it.

Of course, not everyone who indulges in fiction will be able to handle it, though.

However, no matter if they have past trauma or not, assume the best when it comes to content creators.

They're creative and strong, and we should be thankful that they're adding onto fandom culture by just existing and doing what they love.

All people, no matter what fictional content they create, are beautiful in their own way and should be met with kindness and compassion.

Do not go out of your way to harass/abuse innocent people.

Do not go out of your way to be ableist towards content creators and content consumers.

---

Thank you for reading my long post, I hope it helped at least a bit.

Have a great day/night and stay safe, no matter your taste in fiction.

Feedback is appreciated, and reblogs are encouraged.

[inconspicious-random-thoughts]

Your idea of all soul contracts being voided is very interesting and something I've also played around with/considered. It's a major systemic issue that makes life in Hell extremely difficult for those without power (which is most). If Charlie truly wanted to improve life for all sinners, including those who don't want to be redeemed, targeting that system of ownership would be key and I think it'd be a great progression for her character/mission. If Heaven won't play by their own rules, then give Hell the overhaul it needs that improves life for everyone and remove the possibility of soul ownership completely.

I do want to say, with regards to Valentino's behavior, I personally see him showing restraint in some circumstances. Yes, he SAID he wanted to go and shoot up the hotel but after his initial tantrum with the model, he just sat in his room patiently waiting for Vox. I think there is potential to reason with him, but it'd have to be through someone he trusted (Vox and/or maybe Velvette) AND he'd have to be calmed down first to help him move past the pull to impulsivity. He was also able to rein it in pretty well with Charlie even when she was bafooning it up in his studio, on his turf... I just think it would be fascinating to explore the Vees as potential forces/influences of change and how Charlie could incorporate them into her plan. You'd likely have to get them battered down enough to even be willing to negotiate, but end of the day they are business people and I think they can be reasoned with. Even just within exploration of the adult content industry... turnover is extremely high. Maybe Vox/Velvette could be shown the numbers dipping on Angel Dust's popularity and it would then be their job to convince Valentino to drop him. For them, it's money but maybe for Valentino it's power and then that can be explored in their respective character arcs (ie. WHY does Valentino want that power/what is he gaining from it)? There are so many interesting ways you can play with these themes/characters that isn't a boring "Valentino gets stabbed to death" plot point.

So, I really hope the show chooses the more complex exploration of these characters (and gives consideration to their respective backgrounds that may be influencing their decision-making) rather than reducing them to boring cartoon villains (I also hope to GOD they don't betray each other, I love that they have their own little family among the three of them).

Let us see Charlie trying to win them over to her cause. Let us see Charlie challenged with the idea that some people like the life they've made in Hell/don't want Heaven as endgame BUT that doesn't mean they can't improve their practices or help make life in Hell better for all. There's a lot of potential. I think it also really reinforces the main theme that everyone is capable of change.

This is all personal preference/morality, but for me I truly believe that everyone has the capacity to grow. Yes this includes Valentino. If there is "no hope" for some people and no one bothers to reach out because they're deemed irredeemable, then what incentive is there for them to ever get better? Why shouldn't they just become a worse and worse version of themself then, potentially victimizing and harming more people along the way? Approaching Charlie's school of thought where everyone can be redeemed with a plan that focuses on rehabilitating individuals (and breaking down what that means/how that varies person-to-person) is a natural next step. Understanding why someone like Valentino is the way he is, how the system of Hell has contributed to the problem on a societal level, and what tools he should be given to cope/make better decisions in the future WHILE also protecting his victims from additional harm are all critical steps that I think Charlie (and the show) need to start taking more seriously... if their plan is to really explore this idea of redemption, anyway. This would also apply to characters like Sir Pentious and Angel Dust. Everyone is in Hell for a reason, everyone has a past and a laundry list of wrong that needs to be addressed and given care. How many lives did Angel Dust ruin as a mobster? What had Sir Pentious even done prior to his stay in the hotel that landed him in Hell in the first place?

So much potential in all these characters. I really hope the writers really flesh them out. Sorry for going on too long at the end there, your comments just got me thinking.

Your idea of all soul contracts being voided is very interesting and something I've also played around with/considered. It's a major systemic issue that makes life in Hell extremely difficult for those without power (which is most). If Charlie truly wanted to improve life for all sinners, including those who don't want to be redeemed, targeting that system of ownership would be key and I think it'd be a great progression for her character/mission. If Heaven won't play by their own rules, then give Hell the overhaul it needs that improves life for everyone and remove the possibility of soul ownership completely.

Exactly. It is a huge systemic issue and if the show been greenlighted multiple season ahead of time, I'm sure there be an a subplot about it. As it something Charlie see how the contracts affect her people greatly and it would be a project she take on to change it. It's a huge undertaking as is basically restructuring the government that been running on the principle for multiple thousands of years. It's just how things are and she wants to change that.

The contracts originally was about a weaker demon seeking out the protection of a stronger demon to keep them safe from the rest of Hell in exchange of servitude. After several thousand years it evolves and got a bit more corrupted but the bases of it still exist. But the protection became more the overlord defending their territory/property.

Obviously the overlords are the ones that will suffer for it, despite it making things harder to the owned souls to exist in Hell and possibly unfair how they obtain it, (But also keep in mind, the deal was consented by both parties, both agreed.) it is unfair to the overlords when it just the the way things are and no warning of a sudden structural change. They are being punished/losing for playing the long game well while playing by the rules of Hell at the time. They were winning at a game and then the host decided it time to change the rules.

The overlords will:

1) lose their compensation after they held up their end of the deal.

2) lose a large if not all chuck of their power and status.

3) most importantly they will become targets after they were forced to give up their power and their numbers that would have defended them. Lets face it, once contracts get voided and overlords losing their power and status, a bulk of sinner will want to retaliate. Attack the overlord that held them or attack another overlord that they felt wrong them and now have the opportunity to do so when they are not overpowered.

This doesn't only effect the big honcho overlords we seen, there be smaller ones...mobs and gangs and what not. But considering the majority of characters we meet are overlords it would be interesting to see how they deal with this as an audience. Probably an overlord meeting about it if they got intel what was being plan and trying to derail it from happening, or a civil war among the overlords on the approach how to deal with it.

If there is a civil war about it, the overlords who still be upset but willing to work with Charlie/Lucifer would be Carmilla, Zestial, Rosie. They just generally to care about Hell and probably treat their souls fairly well. Rosie probably be least affected by it all. She owns souls, but I think her souls will still follow and look upon as a leader even after they been freed, and cannibal town will more or less run the same as it was before. Carmilla and Zestial would probably have a similar situation.

Unname overlord may be included in this.

The Vees will obvious be against it, and Zeezi might be on the undecided side but more on keeping things the way things are. She doesn't seem like she be an overlord to give up her wants and needs in favor for a better society if it can be avoided it.

Alastor will play double agent im sure. He always have like 3 hidden agendas he working at the same time that are his own her other peoples he force to follow. He be annoyed he lose his souls but then again, he would have his own freedom again.

The best possible solution I can think to fixing the infractractor to what Charlie wants, is to wean out the contracts. Creating a clean slate immediately would be problematic. Have the contracts expired in a decade. AND/OR if new contracts can still be made, have there be term limits. A soul can only be bind to a contract for X amount of years then it can be renegotiated or let it null and void. It be a hassle for the overlords for sure as the constantly, and make extra effort on treating souls better for the soul to want to remain under contract/protected while the other try to earn that spot. Possibly a guideline has to be drawn up to have a basic math for length of servitude. If the overlord provide x to the demon, the demon would serve x amount of years.

One thing I wonder is do overlords provide housing and such as part of their protection? Most sinners don't really seem to have jobs to afford housing and food. Most of the sinners we see are working in the guidelines of their contract. So how are they getting money for things? Is being provided with the necessities part of the protection?

But we have to keep in mind, we see how much the people regret their decision on selling their souls. It seem, like most if not all the people who sold their soul regret it. Its nearly common knowledge that its a bad deal to do it...yet...people still do it. They choose to go along and do it regardless thinking they were the special exception. So yes, they are a victim...but at the same time...are they?

I don't think the regret would not be an all time if its limited to a certain amount of years. That if it something they did regret, at least it there's a light at the end of the tunnel and not just a bleak all of eternity experience. Terms limits would at least have both parties put effort into the relationship if they are satisfied with the deal. Both parties have to put effort to want the other to stay in.

Not saying this can be the endgame solution but it can be a start down that path.

I do want to say, with regards to Valentino's behavior, I personally see him showing restraint in some circumstances. Yes, he SAID he wanted to go and shoot up the hotel but after his initial tantrum with the model, he just sat in his room patiently waiting for Vox. I think there is potential to reason with him, but it'd have to be through someone he trusted (Vox and/or maybe Velvette) AND he'd have to be calmed down first to help him move past the pull to impulsivity. He was also able to rein it in pretty well with Charlie even when she was bafooning it up in his studio, on his turf...

You have a point there. Valentino is a violently impulsive but your right, there was some points he did not act out immediately the way he wanted. He had his hissy fit and tore up a model before he sulked waiting for Vox advice. But I did forgot about Val calming down slightly and waiting for Vox. I also forgot about episode 4 completely. Honestly, it makes his character better that he able to reign in some of that impulsive violent nature. It would make the lost of Angel dust contract better. Im sure Val would trash the room the moment he lost is but after thrashing about to calm down he just be seething without acting out on it. Which...I sort of want to see now. I'm sure there still need to put precautions about Val retaliating. Val would want revenge even if he lost the contract fairly. Val would want to send a message hes not someone to fuck with but perhaps he won't actually act upon it like he would want to. At least wouldn't be a blind tantrum rampaging retaliation if he did act out a little.

I just think it would be fascinating to explore the Vees as potential forces/influences of change and how Charlie could incorporate them into her plan. You'd likely have to get them battered down enough to even be willing to negotiate, but end of the day they are business people and I think they can be reasoned with.

True, very true. Vox and Velvette are fairly level headed people. Well, except about Vox isn't when it comes to Alastor.

Which makes me wonder...

If Vox losing his shit about Alastor

Val losing it about Angel

Who makes Velvette lose her shit about? Can't wait for that character to be introduced.

Even just within exploration of the adult content industry... turnover is extremely high. Maybe Vox/Velvette could be shown the numbers dipping on Angel Dust's popularity and it would then be their job to convince Valentino to drop him. For them, it's money but maybe for Valentino it's power and then that can be explored in their respective character arcs (ie. WHY does Valentino want that power/what is he gaining from it)? There are so many interesting ways you can play with these themes/characters that isn't a boring "Valentino gets stabbed to death" plot point.

That would be actually pretty interesting to see. Angel losing popularity. Probably caused by his stay at the hotel. Having the other Vees try to talk Val on not using Angel so much with them going by the numbers and trending.

Actually, Angel being in the hotel might making him almost an embarrassing cringe meme at some point and Velvette and Vox trying to talk Val not using Angel so tarnish their brand. Because they want to be trending in a good way. I don't think Val wouldn't give up the contract because I think Val really likes having Angel around for himself even if Angel not a big income anymore. Maybe Angel becoming a joke and not a money maker Val would hesitantly accept an offer for Angel soul if the payout was big enough.

Even if it not dramatic, I kind of want this play out now. It like the safest and agreeable way to end the terms without much fear of retaliation.

I think it be really sweet way to play out. The hotel residence, and Cherri if she hasn't joined, chip in with everything they have to buy Angel freedom. Lucifer, Charlie and Alastor able to contribute more and possible offer something with more weight like a restricted favor at a given time. Angel would be so grateful and feel so love that everyone did it, that if they felt like a family to him before it only furthered it. It also open up to some Angel angst if favors were offered and the Val request wasn't agreeable to the one giving the favor but has to serve out anyways. Angel would feel so much guilt over it.

So, I really hope the show chooses the more complex exploration of these characters (and gives consideration to their respective backgrounds that may be influencing their decision-making) rather than reducing them to boring cartoon villains

I am a huuuuuge sucker for backstory and character growth. I love character growth. Even if they don't grow, I like how we eventually learn of their back stories to understand why they are the way they are. Make you sympathise with them even if you don't agree with their methods.

I hate black and white/ right and wrong anything..I love how everything grey and having that explored. I mean, the vast majority of people are not evil or good for the sheer sake of it. It usually stems from something that propels people in that direction.

My favorite trope is a villian is sort of in the right in their own way but they went about it wrong. Basically the ends justify the means.

(I also hope to GOD they don't betray each other, I love that they have their own little family among the three of them).

That....never crossed my mind. I would feel so betrayed myself if that would happen. I love their little family. But if one would betray, its Velvette. But it better not happen. They need to stick together! Even if I suspect Velvette be the one out of the three to betray, I doubt she will. Phone Case as evidence. Vox and Val phone case is their own personal brand symbols while Valvette is about all three of them. She probably the biggest heart of all of them and makes them stick together.

Let us see Charlie trying to win them over to her cause. Let us see Charlie challenged with the idea that some people like the life they've made in Hell/don't want Heaven as endgame BUT that doesn't mean they can't improve their practices or help make life in Hell better for all. There's a lot of potential. I think it also really reinforces the main theme that everyone is capable of change.

I been thinking about this exact thing SO MUCH lately. I wanted to make a post about it but didn't end up doing it.

Like, Alastor is a prime example of this. He doesn't want redemption. Giving the life he had, he probably never felt so freeing until he landed in Hell. In life people scampered away or looked away in disgust and hatred because of his heritage, he was taken advantage because of heritage and social standing. He had to hide his identity behind radio to be able to converse freely without judgement and treated equal. The activities he enjoy he had to keep secret. But in Hell? people scamper away out of fear of his power, he can indulge in all his deplorable actives he enjoy. He can force people to listen to him. Hell was freeing for him. It's everything he needs and wants aside not being with his mother. He doesn't want redemption. He doesn't want to give up his fun and entertainment. He doesn't want to give up his power and status. It's Hell, hes going to have his bad days especially with his shackles but overall how he going to enjoy heaven for eternity if he bloodthirsty and enjoys annoying people without receive retaliation?

Even if he makes it to heaven...it be similar to his life on Earth. His power would be equal or lower of the residence of Heaven. They will learn how heinous he once was. They will be disgusted by him and move to the other side of the street to avoid him. He be happy to see his mother...but can he really bring himself to her after...everything? Her having the knowledge of everything because word would get around. She may work past it, but Alastor would feel that her eyes won't look at him the same way as it once before. It pains him greatly. It pains his mother having that knowledge. Heaven not suppose to hurt. He can't have the both of them suffer like that. It's best that she remains in the dark of his deeds because whatever worst case scenario she can dream up about her sweet little boy it wrist slap compared what he actually committed.

He doesn't want redemption...

...but it doesn't mean he can be rehabilitated which I think has already starting to happen. He curb his activities for the image of for the hotel. He hides his particular diet from their eyes to not disgust them. He still gets to indulge and commit murders but now its more reserved for the defence of the hotel and its residents. He always had his own moral code when it came to his murders. But it seem like he hasn't "hunted" since he been at the hotel because he didn't want it getting back to Charlie and disappoint her or ruin the hotel image IMO. So, I think we already seeing Alastor being slowly rehabilitated without him or anyone realizing it. The longer he there the more he going to feel fond with the other residence and continue to change some of his habits for their benefit.

This is all personal preference/morality, but for me I truly believe that everyone has the capacity to grow. Yes this includes Valentino. If there is "no hope" for some people and no one bothers to reach out because they're deemed irredeemable, then what incentive is there for them to ever get better? Why shouldn't they just become a worse and worse version of themself then, potentially victimizing and harming more people along the way? Approaching Charlie's school of thought where everyone can be redeemed with a plan that focuses on rehabilitating individuals (and breaking down what that means/how that varies person-to-person) is a natural next step. Understanding why someone like Valentino is the way he is, how the system of Hell has contributed to the problem on a societal level, and what tools he should be given to cope/make better decisions in the future WHILE also protecting his victims from additional harm are all critical steps that I think Charlie (and the show) need to start taking more seriously... if their plan is to really explore this idea of redemption,

I agree. For Charlie to really move forward with her redemption she needs to start trying to get to the root of the problems. Trust falls isn't going to be the answer. I think she been hesitate because she doesn't want to push boundaries which is a good thing and to extent is working. They feel safe and relatively there's trust and strong bonds....but at the same time...its not solving much either. But progress is progress I suppose no matter what speed.

What had Sir Pentious even done prior to his stay in the hotel that landed him in Hell in the first place?\

Seriously, What did he do?! He such a cinnamon roll.

So much potential in all these characters. I really hope the writers really flesh them out.

There is a lot of potential and I think that what make this show fun! We only know so much about them so it really fun trying to fill in the blanks and figure out their motives. I don't think any of them are meant to be 2 dimensional or plot devices but have several layers. That even the seemingly simplistic character will have complexity. I just hope the show keeps getting renewed so we can be offered everything the creator wanted to give.

Sorry for going on too long at the end there, your comments just got me thinking.

It's okay. It's a delight to know that my rambling can do that. That they might inspire or help someone get creative about the fandom. I only made this blog to just get ideas out of my head of what I'm hyper fixated on which is currently, Hazbin. I didn't really expected anyone would actually read it much less, like or interact with it. I just find it surprising when it happens but brings me joy that my words and thoughts seem to have some meaning to someone.

[rontra]

I have never played persona so I wasn't sure if I would understand your failteacher comics but I just looked up the characters for a little bit of context and I'm 👀👀👀👀 at it now xD

Without being too spoiler-y, why would you say they'd have a messy relationship? (Besides the fact of Becky taking advantage of her client's loneliness)

HAHAHA yea i think the like dramatic irony enjoyment of knowing (even just roughly) what's going on with becky is very strong so good on you there (obviously toriumi has no idea what's going on with her and becky is doing her best to Handle It, but it contextualizes her behavior for Us...<3)

it's yummy isnt it... its yummy

anyway, the rest of this very long post is just me analyzing a fictional situation i myself engineered, so if that sounds boring please dont click the Read More LMFAO <- cursed to put a lot of thought into Character Stuff

basically they have great potential for mess, which they're Currently keeping a lid on, but would exponentially increase with time. teehee.

as for what WILL happen, im not spoiling anything concrete of course… (winks at the Knowers who already know my Vision….

well, this AU isn't ever going to devolve into a "super destructive toxic nightmare" mess or anything, just to get our working definitions of 'mess' sorted out at the top of the post. not this time. atm (as of comic #3) it's shaping up more like a "this seems . inadvisable and absolutely Don't Try This At Home, but i guess it won't…kill you" mess (LMAO)

to assess their situation at present… there is one half who wants money (and can't ever make enough of it to satisfy her extortionists), and one half who wants intimacy (and is scared and unable to get it on her own). on its exterior face, it's simply a lonely person hiring a professional to keep them company, which is a fairly common thing n not rly super noteworthy; the parentheticals are what make things a bit uh thorny for these characters

the "problem" here is not the transaction itself; they're both willing to supply their half of the trade just fine, and neither party is doing anything wrong by engaging in it. but for these two specifically, there is also a mutual willingness to bend the rules of their transaction—because they're both cornered in some way, and desperate for what the other one is offering to trade

to elaborate on "rules", i mean, first and foremost, that their relationship is not "real"—these people Don't know each other personally and intimately, and they're Not Supposed To. their relationship should never be "real"; they're not friends! (or lovers, for that matter!) they're in a conditional exchange of money for services. right now, these characters are participating in and maintaining a kayfabe; they should operate under a tacit understanding that A) this is not real, B) they both fully know it's not real, and C) following the script is the comfortable way to get what they both want without causing undue risk to either party. creating and then maintaining a fake "reality" together is regulated by a contract between them, and it ends when their booked time ends (and not a minute over time!)

but to return to the earlier point, they're also both cornered and desperate, which drives them both to go beyond what might be considered appropriate. i think this is compelling; it's probably unnecessary of me to add this paragraph but i want to underline (just in case) that i don't think either of them is like "at fault" or w/e (there is no "villain" between them). they're showing Signs Of Mess that could snowball into something much more messy, but it's not something they're doing to hurt each other; they're making decisions based on skewed risk/reward estimations that might not be healthy, and could realistically have harmful consequences for both parties, but they're not, like, Evil (lol). two women getting wrapped up in each other's personal graveyard spirals…it's yuri, isn't it?

with that squared away, and putting it plainly;

toriumi should not be asking her to "break character" when the character itself is what she's paying for; this nudging of their little kayfabe, if indulged, could easily snowball and erode the professional boundaries between them (what she calls "distance" in #3). she is paying 'becky' to 'be here' (paying kawakami to conjure 'becky' into existence by pretending to be her), but she isn't really being mindful of the type of role that this necessarily demands of her in turn. the built-in emotional walls between them are there to protect both of them, but she doesn't fully respect them (despite instinctively sensing their protection in how "safe" becky feels to her). in the end, toriumi is bad at "staying in character" herself, and she can't help but try to root out the actual person behind the mask—despite the fact that no one wants this erosion to happen! possible dire consequences for her wallet aside, losing sight of the line between "transaction" and "investment" (pardon the pun) is a one-way ticket to a very messy place where one or both of them is likely to get hurt...

on the other end, and not helping the situation at all, kawakami identified toriumi as a soft target pretty much immediately, and is actively trying to elicit sympathy and endear herself to her (she is being quite choosy about what vulnerabilities she "lets slip" in #2) in order to make her keep booking and paying. of course some amount of "salesmanship" is part of the job—#grindset always be plugging smash that like button comment n subscribe—but the major difference here is that she's overtly attempting to foster in her client the exact kind of dependency/personal attachment she should be discouraging (for, frankly, both of their safety). like not only is she out fishing to get toriumi hook line and sinker on purpose, but it's also alarmingly reckless behavior on kawakami's part; there's a lack of regard for her own wellbeing involved here on top of it all. again, a messy place where someone, maybe everyone, gets hurt in the end

crucially though, as comic #3 finishes setting up, they're both willing to endure these shenanigans from the other half. at this stage, toriumi does realize that kawakami has her unilaterally wrapped around her finger, and nonetheless agrees that she'll call her again; while kawakami knows very well how this kayfabe is supposed to work, but is indulgent (even rewarding) towards toriumi for her clumsiness. that mutual willingness to keep playing this game would—if the AU continued on these tracks uninterrupted—probably compound until the situation they've made becomes super confusing and unclear for them emotionally...

of course "taking advantage" is sort of a loaded phrase colloquially… but i would say in many ways they are "taking advantage" of each other, yea. the "we both benefit, so it's okay" logic was already vaguely raised as justification in #3; if elaborated a bit with the above in mind, their situation is one where "even if they're both overstepping what is considered appropriate for their arrangement, they've also both decided the benefits outweigh the costs by a wide enough margin to make it worthwhile"

it's got the marks of a sort of symbiotic relationship... their individual motivations for being involved w each other are totally unrelated (cue the "hold on, does. kawakami even like women???" question), but they both feel they benefit enough towards their priority goals to be OK with the other one taking something "less valuable" from them (toriumi even calls out the “sales pitch” becky is doing in #2, but ultimately decides that’s fine because she’s willing to buy). i think each and every moving part here has great capacity to go "too far" and ruin things (perhaps even causing Severe damage in the collapse), but if the situation were to continue in this same rhythm, without that kind of dramatic change, i would say "they're both evaluating the scenario with their own personal goals in mind, and are extracting what they want from one another relatively(?) peacefully(??)". like it might ultimately be a selfish game but they're adults they'll figure it out probably idk its none of my business what they choose to get up to. wouldn't get into that type of shit myself though LOL

women are playing kind of dangerous games with each other but i forgive them because it's interesting to rotate in my mind...<3

another thorn to consider for their future bonding endeavors from here on ofc is that without being "cornered" the way they are, they would not be running this type of "risk math" in the first place. it's hard for either of them to fully back away at this point because they're already cornered in their personal lives; toriumi is incredibly isolated and lonely with a pretty insecure lifestyle even when she's NOT actively sawing through the branch she's sitting on, and kawakami famously MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE, NEEDS A LOT OF MONEY RIGHT NOW because she's being extorted by an unrelated third party. looking ahead it does kind of start to look like an ouroboros of "taking advantage of each other" bc it's hard for both of them to leave their individual situations; it's kind of like, if they weren't here with each other they'd be ... well, they'd be here—just with someone else...

they didn't put each other in this jam—it was unrelated personal circumstances and sheer coincidence that pushed them together—but now that they've committed to each other, it's hard to reverse back out, if that makes sense. i think that kind of thing is interesting too, because it makes me want to see them recognize this, connect, and help each other pull out of their Greater individual personal messes. you know? we can make it if we try... just the two of us... 😔

(unfortunately step 1 of that is ofc to make a genuine personal bond that isn't wrapped up in all this for-pay roleplay stuff. drat!)

tl;dr they're both simmering under high pressure and don't try this at home, but they do already have a sort of tacit agreement forming that this level of messy play is OK between them—as long as the rewards continue to outweigh the risks. at the end of the day, it's a delicate balance ultimately hinging on a money-for-services transaction, so if either of them stopped feeling like paying their half was worth it, it would rapidly come apart. i guess it's kinda like the ways you can tell if animals are genuinely beefing or just playing rough—are they willingly coming back? 💀 ...

no lmao where's that post thats like "this would be terrible if it was anyone else, but considering the people involved this is actually the best option" HRBHJDJG that's kind of how it feels. like if they're gonna be stuck with Somebody (and they would be), its probably good luck that they got Each Other. at least the narrative can sustain the balance of this one and maybe even solve it down the line. heart

to round this post off i would say if i had to nominate one of them, kawakami is probably the most "in control" atm—since she figured out very quickly that she was dealing with an easy mark and moved in to make her a regular customer (quite successfully i might add per the end of #3 lmaoo). i think that's been kinda fun, since in her SLink she's immediately on the back foot due to being unmasked by the inciting incident. we know she will lie and attempt to play to the listener's sympathy, so unleashing her with her Mask Still On has been fun 😭 for her part, toriumi is not only taken with the funny maid (& emotionally invested in her IRL situation to boot), but also very clumsily trying to obtain something she's scared to have, which makes her very impulsive/erratic in her rulebreaking compared to kawakami's much more intentional plays...

play of the game 🧹 (<- there's no maid emoji idk its housekeeping)

of course, my future plans will immediately jostle this entire dynamic into something else and make this whole post obsolete, but i don't wanna lay that out ahead of time. smiles.

anyway, otome dissection on the playlist or whatever

[andreal831]

Where does Lucien rank among your favorite TVDU villains? Personally, outside of the Mikaelsons, he’s my favorite.

It's complicated. Mostly cause I don't really have a rank in my head for villains. I love/hate them for different reasons.

Lucien is a really good villain and I like that they just let him be a villain. Yes, he has a sort of sad backstory, but so does everyone. I hate how people say characters "aren't evil, they're just broken." 99% of villains in media have tragic backstories. It doesn't make what they do ok. And Lucien's story was not more tragic than a lot of what we saw. He was essentially a "lower class" person who got rejected by a girl... and then, yes tortured and killed by the nobility... But who hasn't?

I like that they never really tried to play up his backstory. We see him in flashbacks and can feel a little bad for him, but then Lucien is still just Lucien in present time. He never feels sorry for what he does. He never questions his choices. In his mind, he deserves to do what he is doing and doesn't hesitate. Even when he has bonded with characters, he's still willing to harm them to achieve his end goal. Like I said, I like him as a villain because he is unapologetically a villain.

He came to New Orleans with an elaborate plan to take down the people who he felt wronged him. I really liked the storyline where he was going after wealthy men, but the show kind of dropped it. I love vampire serial killer storylines because they all are serial killers but most of them are just sloppy with it. Lucien was methodical. It makes him even scarier as a villain. He had this hatred towards elites, yet he was one. He complains about how he grew up, yet he spent the vast majority of his life at the top of the food chain.

I will always hate him for what he did to Cami, but it makes him a better villain. He had a fondness for Cami or was at the very least amused by her bravery and spirit. But it didn't matter. His revenge was above everything. So this may put him at the top just for the fact that he was such a good villain all the way through.

I also really love Dahlia, Celeste, and Aurora. Yet, they spend so much time trying to make us understand Dahlia and Aurora that they lose some of their edge. Don't get me wrong, I love that they got their redemption, but it felt like it took away some of their "evil." It was supposed to. We were supposed to root for them and their redemption at the end. So it just makes me not want to list them as my favorite villain.

Celeste, not surprisingly doesn't get this ending (since she is a woc, I am not surprised by how quickly her arc was finished). If Celeste had a main story, she would probably be my favorite villain. She doesn't get enough credit for how she manipulated and launched TO. People love to credit Katherine for sending Katherine to NOLA, but Celeste was the one that manipulated the prophecies and was there at the beginning, destabilizing the factions in order to make the witches desperate to call the Mikaelsons back. She was incredibly powerful and actually had the Mikaelsons running scared because she knew how to emotionally manipulate them.

Speaking of Katherine, I know people love her as a villain, and she is fun. But if we are talking about the top villains, she doesn't rank very high for me. She was too caught up in the teen drama of it all and revolved around Stefan. It was just never a good enough reason to me to like her as a villain. But I don't want to turn this into me just going through each villain and analyzing them, because that's not what you asked for.

All of this to say, Lucien ranks pretty high for favorite villains for me. To me, the TO villains were all a lot scarier than TVD since they all had to be so much more powerful because the main characters were. While I liked TVD, the villains just don't rank as high for me. But I really liked all of the TO villains. I can't think of one that I was bored with actually, I can, Greta, but all of season 5 was a mess so that's not surprising. Even the Hollow, which was a bit of a messy storyline, still had a really neat backstory and was scary.

Season 3 is one of my favorite seasons because the story was so interesting. You can see where the villains are coming from, but they are never redeemed. They are villains and choose to be villains. It also plays on the idea that one mans villain is another man's hero. Like I don't consider Aya a villain at all because she was just fighting for her freedom, whereas some of the other's were motivated by power. I definitely prefer Lucien over Tristan, but Aurora is my favorite of the trio. Yet again, I never felt she was as good of a villain as Lucien because Aurora's actions were more understandable and even justified at times. She did things that weren't, but so did everyone. It really just depends on how you rank your favorite villains.

Sorry for answering this in a stream of consciousness. Let me know if you want any clarifications!

Thanks for the ask!

[misc-obeyme]

hihi I'm back, i was rambling about solomon and immortality the other time

BUT i just got a tiktok, and apparently there's a trend with the song that goes "nothing's new" and the first slide is a tweet saying "who had every right to become a villain?" And the second slide is a character

anyway my first thought was MC because they literally get dumped into a new world, whole life turned upside down and expected to adapt, in both OG and NB. Nightbringer i'd say is different since they have a goal they're working towards and at least they have Solomon

But in OG it's like "try to survive :)", you're looked down upon as a human, you're kept in the dark about the attic, there's so many little things that add up-

But in the end MC chooses kindness, chooses to keep going and make it work, and yes there's the chaotic options but no harm is done without cause I guess you could say?? They're not afraid to stand up for themselves and they're stubborn, but they won't sink down to the lowest of the lows after everything they've gone through

I dunno if i made any sense, I just needed to ramble and share with someone 🤣 thank you for being a welcoming blog

- ✨

Welcome back to my ask box! I will add ✨ to the anon list!

And of course I love all the ramblings, so know you're always welcome to come here to share your thoughts!

Now I gotta say the generic OM MC is one unhinged mf and I don't understand how they stay so chill and happy all the time. Like I would argue their ability to put up with so much crazy is what makes them unhinged rather than the chaotic options that are sometimes given for them. That stuff feels like a normal reaction considering everything they go through. Like the time they threatened to explode Mammon's door? Yeah, that feels like something someone who has been pushed beyond their limits might do.

And yet so often, the choices are nice. So often the choices are MC giving and giving and giving. They care so much and are willing to go through so much and do so much in order to keep their demons safe. And MC is the human in this scenario. I know, MC is OP with their pacts and their sorcerer stuff and their Ring of Light, but you would still expect the demons to take better care of them. And I mean more their mental state than anything. But the game kinda just takes for granted the fact that MC can take all the crazy in stride. I'm pretty sure I would have had a mental breakdown after the first week lol.

All that being said, I love the idea of MC turning into a villain. This is where you really can get into different story lines and outcomes based on your personal MC. Because I think it would be very easy for an MC to turn villainous in this situation. It depends on how conniving your MC is as to how this goes down.

Like do they deliberately wait to betray everybody until they've secured all seven pacts and the Ring of Light and so on?

Or is it more like one day they just snap and they never meant to turn?

In the first scenario, the question is what is their goal? Why would they do that to begin with? Maybe they want to rule the Devildom themselves and the goal is to have all the bros under their spell for the sole purpose of like dethroning Diavolo or something. I mean, good luck with that lol but it'd sure be interesting.

In the second scenario, it's definitely more chaotic and just MC loses their mind. Maybe starts destroying things Satan-style because they can't control it anymore.

I think it's a fascinating idea. And you could go with MC succeeds or you could go with someone (whoever MC is closest to perhaps) is able to talk them down from destruction.

But yes, in the end our OM MC always chooses kindness. Even when they're not going to take any nonsense, they're always solution oriented. They're always about helping the characters and I would say they're almost stubborn in their kindness too? Like they're determined not to be anything other than kind because to them, that's the right thing to do. It's precious.

[thyandrawrites]

Love how the ant liberation guy gives a legit point to shoji about how he’s not giving any alternatives and he’s just yelling platitudes, and then KODA comes in and silences him with his freaking pigeons and is like “don’t criticize shoji he’s above critique 🥺🥺🥺🥺” and were supposed to cheer I guess

See, things like this are why I wish the kids had some character growth before entering this second war arc. Because with their current mindset, the points that the villains raise about the unfairness of their society that should prompt a conversation end up being insurmountable differences.

Like. It is a fact that their current society harms people on both sides. it doesn't matter that Shouji is a hero and Spinner a villain, cause both suffered from quirk prejudice. Just like how it doesn't matter that Shouto is a hero and Dabi a villain, because they both suffered child abuse. They have common ground. But Horikoshi never does anything with that, and instead keeps reducing it to a conflict between good and bad victims. Shouji and Shouto are "good" because they Plus Ultra'd out of their bad circumstances, found help, grew as people and started looking at the future with hope. Meanwhile, Spinner and Touya are "bad" because they persist in their path of violent rebellion and demands for justice.

All of them should have justice, but the way it's framed, the villains are the problem because they can't let things go like their hero counterparts, and somehow ignoring the issue is a good thing that makes everything better.

And what's frustrating about this is that it's not a flaw, per se, if the kids decide to cope with their trauma by forgiving and becoming part of a system that hurt them. That's their choice. The actual flaw is framing them like paragons of morality for what should be a personal choice. Like. They're free to deal with their abusers they way they most see fit, but they don't get to tell other victims that they cannot want justice. Yet that's what keeps happening. Over and over.

And what's so frustrating about this is that through all of this there are actual good points that should be discussed. Touya exposed how the blind faith in heroes as pillars of justice created a monster like Endvr, and what did heroes do? They blindly put faith in him again, hoping he would fix society for them. In much the same way, the problem of discrimination in the countryside needs addressing. People can't keep getting beaten and killed as we wait for the social climate to change. It's true enough that things can't shift overnight, and Shouji's right that they likely won't see the end of anti-mutant discrimination during their lifetimes, but that's also not an excuse to do nothing about it. There should be a middle ground somewhere.

But instead of reaching it, the argument gets shut off from the start with this tiresome "well you hurt my friends and I can't forgive you for that" attitude.

Guess what. The heroes killed Twice too. They literally hurt Toga's friend. And yet what did she do? She seeked out a hero kid for empathy and tried to have a dialogue with her. She tried to make Ochako understand that villains have people they care about too.

And what was the response? "Well you hurt people and I can't forgive you"

It's just. Ughhh. A pointless eye for an eye with no end in sight, and it's fairly telling that the people who are most willing to sit down and just talk here are the fucking villains because the heroes can't think with their own heads for five minutes

[ask-team-galactic]

Unpopular opinion: I think Cyrus is more interesting as a character when he isn't redeemed. I understand why the appeal of him seeing the error of his ways is there, especially given how much his traumatic upbringing shaped his philosophies, but I think that many of his incarnations, such as those in the original Gen 4 games, the remakes, the Diamond and Pearl Adventure manga, and the anime (though I dislike his portrayal in the anime) are more interesting as villains. In those incarnations, he shows no sign of doubting or reconsidering his plans- in the anime, he basically opts to kill himself rather than live in the world he despised, while in the games, even during the final confrontation at Spear Pillar/the Distortion World, he insists that he will achieve his ambition, and that the player's intervention is just a minor setback. With that level of belief in his ideals, I don't think redemption would be in character, nor would it be a satisfying outcome to his character arc.

I also find that, in the portrayals where Cyrus is redeemed, it's not done in a way that provides any sort of closure to his character arc. Masters is especially guilty of this- 90% of his "redemption" is Cynthia and the protagonist(s) telling him "you're wrong" with minimal clarification, and he seemingly just decides "okay, I'm wrong" out of the blue. The part with Sophocles was handled very well, and while I could see what the writers were going for with the Commanders talking him out of it, given that he called the entire rest of Team Galactic "uniformly useless and incomplete" in Platinum, I don't exactly buy that he'd be convinced by them, of all people. My big problem with this, and with his portrayal in the Pokespe manga, is that Cyrus was never proven wrong. He was never shown that his vision for the world was going to cause more harm than good. And it would have been easy to do- have any relevant legendary (Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Arceus, the Lake Guardians- even Darkrai or Hoopa in Masters could work) show the world he would have created, and let him realize that it was a fundamentally flawed concept. If they really wanted to redeem him, that's how I think they should have gone about doing it.

Thank you for the very thoughtful ask and the opportunity to talk about my favourite character! I agree with some parts of this and disagree with other parts of it and I think you make some very good points.

Firstly, to give back a milder version of your controversial opinion, I would totally be down for more iterations where Cyrus isn't redeemed! For one thing, I would love an iteration where the commanders realize he's wrong, try to redeem him, and have to find the strength to turn against him. I think that would be interesting, and I say that as someone who LOVES iterations where Cyrus and the commanders act like friends or found family and where they're a big part of his redemption (the great thing about multiple iterations is that we can have our cake and eat it, too!). And for another thing, I think that Cyrus' absolute conviction is part of what makes him great. I actually first wrote him because I wanted to feel as confident in my own convictions as he does. I love that he's relentless and is willing to do anything- any evil, any personal sacrifice, any effort- to accomplish his goals. I love moments where he shows that, like when he decided to go further into the Distortion World in hopes that it would allow him to fulfill his plans, or when he's bleeding and wielding the red chain in Spe. I like seeing him willing to fight to the last breath.

HOWEVER, I also like iterations where Cyrus is redeemed. I'll explain why further down, but first I'm going to address the part of your analysis that I disagree most with.

I disagree with you that Cyrus needs to be shown that his vision is bad in order to properly redeem him. My reason for that is that I think that at least a part of Cyrus' ironclad determination comes from the fact that he would rather do anything than live out an unaltered lifespan in our universe. In Platinum and the anime short, he'd rather exile himself to the Distortion World. In Spe, he'd rather keep going even as he's battered and bleeding from his eyes. In Masters, he'd rather escape to a dream of utter nothingness and apathy. And as you said, in the anime, he'd rather die.

For that reason, I think you could show him a vision of people and Pokemon languishing in meaningless, empty lives in the world he's planned, and depending on where he's at he might still think that's better because he is suffering to the point where he'd prefer that. In some iterations he thinks that everyone else is also suffering and would be better off that way, too, and in others he just doesn't care about anything but his own relief. And even if such an experience did get him to realize he's wrong and quit, he'd be left utterly hopeless, with no hope for this world or the one he planned to create. That isn't a satisfying conclusion to a character arc, and realistically might still lead him to be destructive- either through senseless lashing out or finding a new villainous plan that gives him hope.

That doesn't mean that I think Cyrus should be portrayed as completely set in his ways, however. Through every iteration, they're actually very consistent with there being one thing that melts Cyrus' conviction like butter: hope for something better.

This isn't always a good thing. In the anime short, Cyrus abandons his goal to live in the Distortion World, convinced that he'll be happier there. In Masters, he abandons his plans to take a permanent nap in the woods so he won't have to feel anymore.

However, sometimes "something better" is of this world, and that's when redemption happens. I like that, because Cyrus isn't scary and dangerous just because his vision sucks. It wouldn't matter at all if he could just have his empty, meaningless world harmlessly in parallel to ours. Cyrus is the antagonist ultimately because the world and our ability to experience it is worth having and would be tragic to lose. I think that him realizing that he could actually be happy is 100% what would get him to choose a better path in life, so I'm glad that's the path we've seen in Spe and Masters. It's nice to see broken things heal, and for Cyrus, healing and redemption are and should be synonymous.

That being said, I do agree with some of your specific complaints on the redemption arcs we've seen. In both Spe and DPA, Cyrus softens on his ideas or outright changes his mind just because he had some time to think. Because it happened twice, I don't think it can be called "out of character," but it's really not my favourite part of his character and I do have a hard time squaring it with him being willing to fight for his beliefs for the 5+ years that Team Galactic existed. So, yeah, I agree with you. I think that Cyrus should have at least taken note of the trio's friendship before his cool-down period in Spe.

As for Masters... well, I only know about Masters through second-hand accounts so I might have some things wrong, but I honestly don't have an issue with the commanders being a big part of why Cyrus changed his mind. There are some iterations (and Platinum is one of them) where there is nothing to suggest that Cyrus has a bond with his commanders, and in others, like Spe and DPA, there's plenty. It seems like in the Masters iteration, Cyrus does care a lot about the commanders and they know that, even though he's far from open about it ("You're tools to me." "Sure, buddy. Let's go be attached at the hip for the rest of Masters"). Given that relationship, I think it's absolutely heartwarming that part of what caused Cyrus to turn around was to see that his commanders still wanted to be there for him even though they saw him at his weakest. I also like that Cyrus is still very dumb when it comes to emotional matters and hasn't solidly changed his mind about anything. He's just put his goal on hold and is looking at his options now that he's feeling a little more hopeful.

I'll end this off by saying that if you want a villain who 100% will never change their mind and will always go down fighting, Lysandre might fit the bill. He's also suffering because of what he's trying to do, and unlike Cyrus, it's unambiguous that he's doing what he's doing for the supposed greater good.

Thanks again for the opportunity to discuss! I hope you got something out my ramble, haha.

[darknixx]

Engulf it with the flames that destroyed us...

The hero and villain's once-used-to-be tormenters now appear before them. The same tormenters who caused their separation and led these two souls on a different path from each other. The hero with their forgiving heart is willing to move on from the incident of their past, finding vengeance to be completely unnecessary. But what will go down when the villain tilts the hero's head just a tad bit to the side to see their view...

Villain:

Ah, my dear, doesn't the sight before us just stir the soul?

The tremors of fear, the shivering pleas for mercy—they're truly intoxicating. It's almost… pitiful, isn't it? How these mighty figures, who once stood towering over us, now cower like frightened children.

It’s almost poetic, the way they now grovel at our feet, unknowing that with a single nod, we could extinguish the very light from their eyes.

It brings a certain… amusement, doesn't it? To see how the tables have turned.

But let me ask you. Why should we stop at mere amusement? Why not savor this moment a bit more… intimately?

You see, they've wronged us— deeply, irrevocably. They lit the fire that sought to consume us, to reduce our legacy to ashes. But oh, how fate loves her ironic twists.

For now, it is we who stand with the power to engulf. Not just with flames, my friend, but with a fire far more potent— the fire of vengeance.

Hero:

I… This is all so overwhelming. It's not that I don't feel the pull, the… allure of what you're proposing.

There's a part of me, perhaps a darker part, that finds a bitter sort of satisfaction in their fear, the promise of turning our suffering into their torment. But I… I don't know. This isn't us, or at least, it shouldn't be.

We've suffered, yes. But, doing such things, isn't that just becoming what we despised? How does it make us any different from them? If we give in to this… this instinct for vengeance, aren't we just perpetuating the cycle of harm?

But then again, the thought of letting them off, of letting them think they've won, it… it gnaws at me.

Villain:

Oh.

You hesitate, I see it. And oh, how admirable your restraint is, how… humane.

But remember, humanity didn't save us from their wrath, did it? Picture it: the fear that now dances in their eyes, not just a temporary flicker, but a blaze—a blaze that mirrors the very inferno they ignited in our lives.

Imagine the power, the absolute control. It's not just retribution; it's a statement —a declaration that we are no longer the victims, but the architects of their fate. We have the opportunity, here and now, to right the cosmic scale, to ensure that justice, true justice, is served.

Hero:

You're right. It's hard to admit, but you're right.

The line between right and wrong blurs when you're the one in pain. They never hesitated, not once, to inflict such terror upon us. Never spared us a second thought when they had us under their heel. Why should our conscience restrain us when theirs did not? Why should we grant them mercy now?

Perhaps… it's time they understood and felt every piece of the pain they caused. Yes, let's… Let's do it.

Let's ensure they never forget the pain they caused, that they live with the fear they instilled in us.

And perhaps— In the end… Justice sometimes requires us to embrace the darkness to protect what little light we have left.

Villain:

You finally see it, don't you? So, darling… Engulf it with the flames that destroyed us.

[akawestruck]

I watched The Labyrinth again. It is now 2am 3am and I have more Thoughts on the nature of the Labyrinth. So this is part 1, a reflection on what the characters' roles in the story and in Sarah's coming of age journey are, and how those are related to the nature of the Labyrinth.

I feel like this should be an 'In this essay I will...' but I don't really have a thesis statement, so... more under the cut

There are many ways to interpret the Labyrinth and the residents therein, but I'm going to start with the interpretation that the whole thing is a manifestation of Sarah's coming of age and all residents are parts of her. Specifically, the 'childish' parts. In which case it would go:

Hoggle: Her selfishness. The most prominent part of Sarah we're shown in the outside world. Causes problems and easily controlled by her fantasies (Jareth) but ultimately wants what's best for her

Ludo: Her naivety and magical thinking. Introduced as being besieged on all sides, simple but powerful, and gets attached to people easily. Sarah immediately has a strong affinity for him, and defends him

Sir Didymous: Her sense of fairness/duty. Reckless and overzealous, can't be convinced to change his mind or himself but willing to go with loopholes (accompanied by Ambrosius, her cowardice)

Jareth: Her fantasies. An escape from her responsibilities, seemingly seductive and controlling her life, but actually subject to her own desires. A standout line from his introduction is 'this isn't for an ordinary girl', because what girl like Sarah doesn't dream of being extraordinary?

I could go into a full analysis with evidence on each of them but I think if you are willing to go along with this interpretation it's not a stretch. Honestly, the more I think about it the more elements of the story I can fit, even aspects that I first dismissed as extra trappings to round out the characters, like Jareth telling Toby that he 'has my eyes'. Either because Toby is literally related to Sarah and Jareth is part of her, or because Sarah loves Toby and is working on internalizing that he is family despite him being new and not having the same mother.

The obstacles of the Labyrinth can somewhat be fitted into this as well, so honourable mention to the Fire Gang: Peer pressure. Doing harmful things like they're normal, trying to get her to join in. Plus the Bog of Eternal Stench: Toby's diapers (and the exaggeratedly inescapable influence of his existence on all aspects of her life the moment her entered it, the ultimate fear of her selfishness, traversable only by a healthy dose of magical thinking, and guarded by her sense of duty).

On a Doyalist level this is sufficient in itself. The characters in a coming of age story reflect aspects of the protagonist as they come of age, duh. But on a Watsonian level it's interesting because the characters are parts of Sarah's psyche, and they look like toys from her room or, in Jareth's case, play the role of the villain from her favourite novel but look like her mother's new partner (though the Vibes between Sarah and Jareth personally make me prefer to think of that as an Easter Egg rather than a real resemblance).

I keep knawing at the question of the nature of the Labyrinth. To be clear, on a story level I'm fully satisfied without an explanation. I love the blurred lines of fantasy and reality. However, I want to play in this world myself, so for myself I want to establish an explanation that follows canon but also expands the world. The Labyrinth is too much dictated by Sarah and what she needs to grow up, I can't interpret it's existence as fully independent of her, much though I enjoy various fae!Jareth fics. At the same time, I personally don't enjoy playing in the 'it's all in her head' explanation. I don't want the moments of magic in the real world to be purely her imagination, I want Jareth to have really burst into her house and her friends to have had a dance party in her room. So I prefer the hybrids like that the Labyrinth exists independently but shapes itself to the Runner (or it's her fanfic come to life, my previous post from immediately after watching for the first time).

Anyway, maybe more parts of this essay will manifest. I also want to ramble about Jareth's lines at the end and how they're related to Sarah's relationship with her stepmother. And the nature of Jareth more generally.

[penandswords]

Do you think your entire family is beyond redemption? If not, do you hope they can eventually break away from their toxic mindsets? Do you think Heroes are capable of becoming villains? Do you think Heroes are paragons of good that never do any wrong? What are your thoughts on society splitting into a 'Heroes v. Villains' society? Do you think it's right? Do you think the line is too defined, and should be more fluid/gray? What would you define as 'Heroic' and 'Villainous'?

/NOW THAT I'M ON the new labtop I can give this the reply IT deserves YAY/

Rima pauses for a moment. This person had a lot of questions, and she needed a second to consider how to answer them.

"Redeemable or not, There will always be part of me that wishes they'll break away. I believe there are some members who can be redeemed, and those who have passed the point where that is not an option." Still, she hoped a day might appear where she is proven wrong.

"Regardless of what I believe, they're currently stuck in their ways, and unless they prove me wrong I will consider them to be villains. Especially the ones who were involved in my friends death."

"I don't think anyone is exempt from going down a villainous route, people go through difficult situations and it can change them for the worse or the better. Out of anyone, I think heroes are at a greater risk of that path, They have a high stress job, that sometimes requires them to make difficult choices. On TOP of the stress of protecting those who cannot. AND they have to keep their egos in check on top of everything else. That is a lot of things to balance at one time. And mistakes are bound to happen because of how delicate of a balance it can be. Instead of focusing on how imperfect a hero IS

"As for society, I think in a world where Quirks are as common, as they currently are. We NEED a system in place to help keep order, because if people are actively CHOOSING to use their quirks to harm others, then we NEED people who are willing to use their Quirk to protect. While I don't think the system is Perfect, I do believe it is necessary. As Quirks get stronger and more evolved we NEED to have a system in place to keep order. We won't know how to deal with them if we don't allow ourselves to FIND the flaws now, and fix them as needed. Naturally that means the line of hero and villain will change with it. Having a defined line between what is a hero and villain is a key factor."

"To ME Heroic is an act to protect what is right, and assist others despite personal biases, and without expecting something in return. It's placing insecurities aside and ASSISTING because it is right. They pursue their goals, while also doing their BEST to be mindful of others in the process."

"Villainous is acting on those insecurities and biased beliefs and intentionally causing harm to others. Either for their own personal agenda, or the agenda of another. They pursue their goals regardless of who they step on to get there in the process."