#rhato 25

[glitter-stained]

It's so funny to me when I see people call Jason overly impulsive and incapable to hold back his anger issues because not only is that very untrue, but the fact that he isn't is a medical miracle. Homeboy had two severe traumatic brain injuries from direct hits to the frontal lobe in a period of his life (teenagehood and early adulthood) where the executive functions (developed in the frontal lobe) are not done developing, the classic symptomatology observed almost always in children/teenagers (and so many adults) in that case is dysexecutive syndrome which is characterized by an intolerance to frustration and impulsivity, and it happened to him twice!!! (At least, idk where the Joker hit his head so it's maybe even more) Like do you understand??! Yeah lucky him the Pit healed the first one and then it happened again!!!

I don't necessarily like RHATO #25, but it's incredibly funny to me that not only is the characterization of Jason as impulsive extremely wrong, but it is so in spite of canon events. Like if post RHATO #25 Jason suddenly became extremely impulsive and struggling majorly to control his anger, it would make sense! It would be realistic! The irony of it is wild.

[spiritsglade]

you know what i don't hate jason's rebrand from the helmet to the muzzle. at least within the confines of rhato. the transition to the crowbar & katana because bruce beat the shit so thoroughly out of him in rhato 25 that he physically can't use guns? wearing a t-shirt instead of proper armor because he's lost his home, all his friends, (artemis and bizarro presumably dead, roy leaving him to go to rehab) and is at his most self-destructive and violent?

mm yeah actually i can see the vision.

[onnahu]

Short Jason & Roy angst fic

Post RHaTO #25

Jason is grinning with his red stained teeth, and Roy's heart aches. He was almost late. Jeson could actually die, and Roy wasn't there. And now Jason is smiling, his eyes misty.

''Jason, you need to focus. Do you have some trusted doctors here?'' It's too risky to drive to another city, so they have to figure out something in Gotham. Roy knows about some safehouses Bats shouldn't know about, but his knowledge about medical underground was lacking. He should've been more careful in his reaserch. He was supposed to have Jason's back.

Instead of answering, Jason starts to laugh maniacitly. ''Jason, what's going on?'' Roy asks. It's terrifying, watching his friend heaving cackles that he doesn't has breath on.

''I was waiting, ya know?'' Jason finally spats out, his face suddenly changing from frisky to serious.

''What were you waiting for?'' Roy asks, even if he doesn't want to know.

''For Bruce to finally beat me up. He is a real father now. He did it. So long, and he finally snapped.''

Roy feels bile rising in his throat. He already knew who Bruce was. He was friends with Dick for a long time. But watching Jason, who was only longing for approval, getting beat up by the person who was supposed to be the one who wouldn't do that...

''I'm kinda bummed the otheres weren't here to see. It's important to know what they really are, behind the parent perfect mask.'

Jason loses conciussness not long after, and Roy has to find a reliable medic on his own. It doesn't matter. He only has to keep him alive, and after he's better, they'll figure out what to do next. Together. Roy won't leave him again. Not now, when he knows what he's risking.

[kindlingkeen]

i am so sorry for the long ask but i am always thinking about bruce’s line in detective comics #790 before the 🤢 victim blaming “he loved cars and girls and getting into fights… neapolitan ice cream and the color green… and most of all the thrill of being robin.” i have turned over every part of this line in my head for ages but here is one aspect

girls: pre crisis? during robin days he did have a gf for a bit named rena, essence and isabel in rhato, rose wilson, idk about red hood: the hill. but even with non romantic relationships he has sasha and duela and kori and artemis and talia (ignoring you know what) and the no longer canon natalia knight motherhood thing vs like roy and bizarro as the guys he hangs out with outside of bats and he even points it out “i feel closer to that big white lump of clay than, well, any guy ive ever known. yeah i knew roy and dick since i was young. but since ive been back? from the dead? hes the first guy friend ive made.” talking about bizarro in rhato and i dont put too much stock in rhato but he really does seem to consistently get along better with women. i dont fully think it is that he finds them less threatening cuz in task force z he was happy to hold his own against multiple bat boys but the second cass showed up he was like oh shit shes scary, plus like sheila is the reason he died and you would think that her betrayal would be a huge part of any ptsd or trust issues he no doubt has. but he also has that line after he and artemis kiss where he says something to the effect that it was a good kiss for a girl and that just… what do you mean by that jason? because you have spent the past lord knows how many issues (with the same writer) kissing isabel and looking back somewhat fondly on your time with essence and while readers can think you have very little chemistry with them the story being told is that all that was cool and good and within the norm for you. so like what does that line in your narration mean jason? if it isnt something you are into than why have you been going around kissing women in multiple instances jason?

Okay, so Jason’s line (“But it was nice. For a girl.” in reference to his kiss with Artemis) comes from Red Hood: Outlaw #41:

Which is actually him remembering events that occurred in Red Hood and the Outlaws (2016) #25:

Here, Jason asks Artemis what she thinks of their kiss, and Artemis says, “It was okay, for a boy.”

Honestly, my (somewhat boring) interpretation of the line in RHO #41 is that Jason is referring tongue in cheek back to Artemis’ quip in RHATO #25. I don’t think it was actually meant to be commentary on his sexuality.

That said, imo, Jason Todd doesn’t really seem like the kind of person who would feel the need to limit their sexuality to artificially constructed binary categories of gender … YMMV 😏

[cologona]

I'm making my way through all of RHATO now and I just finished the infamous 25th issue- where Batman beats up Jason. Surprisingly the actual fight is really short? The whole thing couldn't have taken more than a minute, and if I hadn't read annual #3 right afterwards I would've thought Jason healed up within a week or so.

Having read annual #3 though... yes that certainly made clear how brutal Bruce was intended to be. Looking backwards it makes the issue 25 fight look awkward.

[moon-ayyye]

He doesn't fight back because he thinks he deserves it. Sure, he was in shock at first, but by the end of it, he was taunting Bruce. He was goading him into beating him more

I don't approve of Bruce beating the shit out of Jason in RHATO 25, however...

I think it makes sense for Jason's character to not hate him for it. Like, beating up someone because they broke your heart makes sense in Jason's mind.

[mikakuna]

i see this jason todd who actually looks his very young age (instead of the 30yr old man that comics like to portray)

and feel my heart breaking just imagining bruce beating him up, almost killing him, mind-breaking him, and just overall being a total piece of shit father towards him.

a huge chunk of the reason why people don't view bruce's actions towards jason as abusive or wrong is because jason doesn't look his age. he's drawn to be this 35yr old father of three who looks even older than dick (and way too on par with bruce) that people see their fights as one between batman and any of his regular rogues. when they fight, it just looks like batman is fighting a man his age and not an actual young person. it doesn't look like batman is fighting his son who's barely even drinking age (and who def wasn't drinking age in utrh). their fights are portrayed in a way that eliminates the very real power struggle between them.

this applies to jason's entire character as well. a lot of people don't sympathize with how he died or his actions as robin or his fights with the other bats because he doesn't look his age. he always looks older and scarier than everyone else. tim has many sympathizers from the titans tower incident because jason just looked like a grown man fighting a 12yr old (even tho i disagree, tim was built and like 17 lmfao).

anyways, i just wish comics would actually draw jason to look his age, which literally ranges from 19 to early twenties. he's young- so young, and it's so annoying to see him drawn and written as someone older than even bruce.

[ky-landfill]

First I love your art. It's GORGEOUS

Second please please please please do some jayroy. I beg you

Luv you

[glitter-stained]

I keep seeing posts about how Jason should have chara development that makes sense regarding his morals and stop killing because of that rather than because Bruce told him to stop and like - it's not like I disagree. Of course, that would be great. Of course I want him to be written his age by writers that like him and have development that makes sense and work with Bruce and Dick and evolve on his own as a person.

But the thing is.

A few weeks ago I saw a critique of His Dark Materials that was so absurdly daft it made me want to peel my skin off. For context, His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman is a children/young adult book set in fantasy worlds that doubles as a retelling of Paradise Lost in which Lucifer wins, and criticism of christianism is preponderant in it. (This will spoil a good part of book 1 of HDM btw). I'm far from a HDM fan, I saw a few episodes of the adaptation and read it once when I was ten and thought the characters and world was fun but the rhythm in the 2nd and 3rd books was off and I didn't like the ending, so like it was fun but I definitely not a re-read for me. But the point is, this critique clearly had a degree in not getting the fucking point, because his arguments against the books clearly stemmed from an inability to shift his viewpoint out of the christian framework (I promise this is still a Jason post). One of his most ludicrous argument was the lack of character depth in HDM. This is particularly silly because one of the main characters, Mrs Coulters, is one of the most interesting complex characters I've ever seen in fiction. Now Mrs Coulters is interesting because she is a bad guy. Like, tortures and kills children level of bad guy. She doesn't magically grow to sacrifice herself in the name of martyrdom to repent for her sins or something silly like that; but still, she sometimes does very good, helpful things for the characters, because the tension between her character is between her ambition (and her faith though that's more questionable) and her motherhood, as she truly loves and cares for her daughter, one of the protagonists, and wants a better, safer world for her. Now the critique claimed that there was no character depth because there was no concept of sin and no redemption arcs in the books- but those are utterly Christian concepts, so of course they wouldn't be endorsed by a book that challenges their validity. Just because Mrs Coulters doesn't have a redemption arc doesn't mean she isn't deep; and the fact that she does good things not out of morality but out of love is what makes her a fascinating character.

So, thinking about that asinine critique, I was suddenly struck with the realization that Jason is somehow similar to Mrs Coulters in that he is a very loving person who tends to put his personal connexions above everything else (of course, he doesn't experiment on and torture children, that's not what I'm saying). My point is, I don't think why we shouldn't have a Jason who evolves not moved by his morals (though he has them and they matter) but by his love. The point of Death in the Family is Jason wanted to be loved and have a family and trying to shield Sheila's body with his and telling her he loved her. The point of UTRH is Jason doing horrible things in the most theatrical, strategically planned mental breakdown as begging for proof of love because he can't reconcile being loved in a different way that he loves and because he can't understand someone putting their moral code over love. And as much as RHATO #25 fills me up with dread, I have to say I love Jason's behaviour in that final stint. "I am my father's son" holy shit what a line. Jason is Willis' son and because of his filial love, his loyalty demands he avenges him. Jason is Bruce's son and because of his filial love, his loyalty demands that he does not kill. Jason almost murders Willis' murderer with a blank bullet and then when Bruce beats hims halfway to death he doesn't defend himself, doesn't fight back (like, one punch but come on, we've seen him fight, he just gives up). That right there? Hate to say it with how questionable RHATO's Jason is in general, but that's peak characterization. The conflict is entirely about Jason's conception of love, family and worldview, and it's deep and interesting and has nothing to do with morality. I want Jason storylines that explore that. I want Jason to work with the batfam in stories that make sense, I want the writers to acknowledge him as a victim and trauma survivor and allow him to grow from there instead of demonizing his mental illness, I want him to stop killing out of love and I want him to allow himself to love in healthier ways and for the width of his love to spread exponentially and for that to affect his behaviour and worldview.

And that's not just because I like Mrs Coulters and dislike the idea of holier than though moral characters! The christic symbolism Jason is crystal clear (especially in Lost Days), but it's not just about Jason: Talia is associated with Mary (which makes sleeping with him that much more obviously incestuous and horrible and ooc), Joker is the Devil and Bruce, of course, is God (which begs such interesting questions about the Holy Spirit - Robin maybe? To explore at a later date). Now, everybody's experience with Christianity differs wildly, but the way I learnt it growing up in catholic culture was basically God being an Authority of Judgement and Law, strict and all about morality; while Jesus is about love, unconditional love, even and especially the sinners and the damned (and as for the devil Lucifer is a fallen angel who fell after losing to God, and Satan is the demonic incarnation of temptation ain't that interesting). So I would argue that by having Jason kill or not kill out of love for his family, Jason is already his own character with autonomous thought process, independent morals and original interesting values that are a breath of fresh air in the world of superhero which is all about moral codes. Additionally, I think it's interesting and full of potential (and hope) that that very thing is why Jason and Bruce are held in opposition so often when in christianism they are two sides of the same coin.

TLDR: Jason going through character development that doesn't involve an evolution of his moral code is a great idea and if executed properly should give us fascinating stories with one of the most interesting characters in the DC universe, I used to think he should get a sort of "redemption arc" after UTRH where he questions his moral code but now I feel like I'm stuck in the same Christian/superhero framework as the pedantic guy who didn't understand His Dark Materials and I refuse to agree with them about anything so now I'm a hardcore "love over morals" Jason girlie. Obviously I still think moral code development would be a good and interesting storyline and better than anything DC is giving us rn, but I think we could do even better without it.

(also Star Sapphire Jason ftw)

[fandom-hoard]

Have you tried beating him to a pulp on a rooftop while he doesn't fight back, and only stopping when two of his bffs save him? And then, after he watches those two bffs die, beating him to a pulp a second time while telling him you never should have believed in him, until a third bff comes to save him from you?

And then showing up a few weeks later to tell him, that third bff has also been killed, and also that you love him, even if you half to beat him to pulp sometimes for his own good?

Refuse To Kill His Killer

Replace Him Months After His Death

Slit His Throat

Alter His Brain Chemistry With Fear Gas

Call Him My Greatest Failure

someone who is good at parenting please help me my relationship with my son is in shambles

[varpusvaras]

Roy stands in front of the stove and stares at the soup.

He watches it simmering, the surface gently bubbling every now and then, and he tries not to think too much.

It's been pretty hard, lately, not to think too much, but he has to do it, because if he starts to think, he will get angry again.

Roy can't afford to get angry. Not yet, anyway.

He stares at the simmering soup until it is ready, and he turns the stove off and takes the pan off of it, and he takes the nice bowl out of the dishwasher and starts to ladel the soup in it, because, damn it, he is using the nice bowl for this. Would it be safer to use the less nice ones? Maybe, but Roy doesn't feel like playing it safe and behaving like the nice bowl is above this.

He is getting way too agitated about bowls. Roy stops, breathes in the herbal scent of the soup, and continues to get the soup from the pan into the nice bowl. He then gets the high glass from the cabinet, because the nice bowl of soup needs a nice glass of water to go with it.

He then takes both and makes his way to the bedroom.

He stops at the doorway.

The ceiling is off, because Jason's eyes and head can't really handle too much light right now, but the desk light on Roy's side of the bed is on. Lian is laying on that side of the bed, curled as close to Jason as she can, with a book in her hands. It's one of Jason's, though Roy can't see which one from where he is standing, but the words he can hear Lian softly reading out make it sound very English.

Jason's eyes are closed, but his head is turned ever so slightly towards Lian, and from how he is breathing, Roy knows that he is awake.

It is something that any other time would only make Roy's heart swell with love and happiness, but right now, there is an ugly, bitter taste all over it, preventing him from truly enjoying it.

He clears his throat a bit. Lian turns to look at him over her shoulder, sees the bowl and the glass, and she takes the book and scoots to the edge of the bed.

"Lian."

Lian looks at him little pleadingly, even though by now, she already knows the answer.

Roy shakes his head. Lian turns her eyes down. She puts the book on the nightstand, and reaches to wrap her fingers around Jason's for a second, before she slides off of the bed. Roy steps into the room to get away from the doorway, so she can get past him and out of the bedroom.

"Thank you", Roy whispers to her as she walks past him. He then nudges the door closed and walks up to the bed.

He turns on the desk light on Jason's side of the bed. Jason twitches a little, his eyes flutterin and his brow pinching a bit.

"Sorry", Roy murmurs. He puts the bowl and the glass on the nightstand to have both his hands free. "I'm gonna move you up a little."

It's a familiar dance for both of them by now. Jason hums affirmatively, Roy steadies his back and neck and pulls him up a little against the headboard. Jason's jaw clenches because by now, the painkillers have stopped working and he is more lucid and definitely more aware of everything that is going on with his body, but he wants it this way, because being more lucid means that he can kind of eat on his own.

'Kind of' in this context means that he can swallow without spewing anything on himself, and that is something that Jason is willing to take, even if it comes with more pain.

Jason opens his eyes when Roy lets go off him to pick the bowl back up.

"How're you feeling?" Roy asks. He tries not to ask it every time Jason is even marginally awake, but it's difficult, because every time Jason closes his eyes, Roy can only see him laying there, bloody and still and him looming over his body.

It's been weeks now, and still, Roy can't seem to forget how he had felt back there, when for a one moment, he had thought that Jason was dead.

Jason just breathes for a moment. He has to do it a lot, as he cannot breathe very deeply at all.

"Fine", he says, which Roy deciphers as meaning not worse than the last time you asked. It's good enough, all things considered.

"That's good." Roy gets some soup on the spoon. Jason's left hand is in theory capable of holding onto things, but in reality, it still shakes too much for him to be able to do anything precise with it. So what he gets is Roy spooning the soup for him.

They don't speak while Jason eats. Just the act of eating takes too much of his energy, and he needs to focus to it in order to get it done. It is all familiar by now as well. After Jason has gotten at least some food and water down his throat, Roy will give him his next dose of painkillers, and then talk to him while he falls back asleep.

Roy knows that Jason hates it.

They have talked more than enough of their childhoods at this point. Roy knows all the unsavory details of Jason's story, and right now, at this moment, the ones of his mother, almost always unresponsive towards the end, with Jason trying his best to keep her alive by any means necessary, are at the forefront of both of their minds. Roy knows it.

He also knows that it is the one place Jason never wanted to end up in, and he's been there once already.

It is why he doesn't want Lian to see him right now, no matter how much he adores her. Jason had been alone, back then, taking all the responsibilities of adults when he had just hit double digits in age, and the last thing he wants is to make another kid go through the same. It's not the same, since Roy is there, but it is too close for Jason nevertheless.

Roy has tried to explain it to her, so she wouldn't feel like she's done something wrong. She understands, but with that understanding, has only come the need to help even more.

Roy loves her so much. He wishes that she never has to go through anything bad in her life.

Roy also loves Jason, and while he knows that there is nothing that he could've done for him before, he will never forgive himself for not protecting him now.

He doesn't say that out loud. Not yet.

Jason finishes half of the bowl before he just simply cannot make himself eat more. He accepts enough sips of the water to not be dehydrated and to get the painkillers down. Roy lets him stay sitting for a moment longer, before he lowers him back down onto the bed.

He says other things out loud. Simple things. Simple, loving things, that don't reveal how much Roy wishes to take all the pain from Jason and give it back. He will, eventually, because Roy knows Jason, and he knows that for Jason, saying those things out loud is love as well.

But not yet. Not yet, simply for the fact that if Roy does so, he will have to do as he says, right there, right then, and he cannot yet.

Not yet, when Jason still needs him like this.

Jason closes his eyes, slowly, as the awareness in them dims, and eventually his breathing evens out, as much as the painkillers allow him to not care about everything in him that has been broken.

Roy watches him sleep.

He is happy, now, that he listened to Jason and never told anyone, not even Dick, about them. As much as Roy loves Dick, he is now a safety hazard, a possible breach in this place that Jason has for himself. A place that no one will know to come and look for him from.

That is good. That is exactly what he needs right now.

That is exactly what Roy wants.

Batman will not be able to find Jason. He will not be able to come for him.

No. When the time comes, it will be Roy who comes for the Batman, and when that time comes, Roy will be ready for it.

[its-your-mind]

hey guys just a PSA I think h2sh is going to Literally Kill Me.

[fortanuvasyama]

listen I understand that the point of this whole arc is that Bruce is being influenced and not in complete control of himself, which is fine and is an interesting story

but the thing I KNOW is going to happen at the end is how everyone is going to be a 'family' again and it'll be brushed under the rug cause bruce 'wasn't himself', and I think that's absolute malarkey.

i think there needs to be some kind of consequences to what's happening. like sure Bruce isn't in complete control but it's still him that's doing it, his body and his face and his voice; is it not understandable if that was a trigger for some of the group?

it just drives me nuts because DC does this every time. Bruce does something absolutely fucked up, everyone suffers, and at the end everybody acts like nothing happened.

and then another part of me is thinking about DC doing this so they can have Jason go 'insane' and become a Rogue :\

[booklover223]

Dick would be LIVID when he finds out that Bruce saved the fucking JOKER over saving his son from the same way he ORIGINALLY died

“WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU DIDNT EVEN CHECK TO SEE IF JASON WAS OKAY?! OF COURSE HES GONNA BE PISSED WTF BRUCE?!!”

And when he finds out the Jason actually did die this time?? Robin became a thing because of Richard Grayson being a gremlin who wanted REVENGE for his parents deaths, you think after all the trauma he went through with Jason and his death and revival that he’s gonna be any kind of sympathetic to Bruce?? Dick literally killed Joker for killing his brother who he had major regrets about and now he finds out his own father killed that very same brother just to save that STUPID FUCKING CLOWN?!

DPxDC idea: The Batarang Incident kills Jason and he returns as an Infinite Realms ghost.

Humans are not inclined towards surviving incidents like having their throats cut or being in an explosion that brings down a building on them. One after the other, with no rescue or medical attention? Jason died again in that confrontation with Batman and the Joker. He returns as a Ghost of the Infinite Realms.

For one reason or another, perhaps he forms right away right next to his corpse, perhaps Batman never looks for his body, Jason is able to return to being the Red Hood without much trouble. Sure he covers every inch of skin and uses a voice changer, but he did that before, it's nothing new. If he's a bit more paranoid about it, well chalk it up to his father having stuck a batarang in his neck the last time he removed his helmet.

Jason is just glad that his suit covers up the glow. Because he does that now. Glow. All the time. Compared to the glowing? Inhuman changes of colouration are just window dressing. Getting a hang of his new powers took a couple of weeks, but the timing was convenient - people might have expected him to be out of the game for months with the injuries he should have had.

So Jason's ghost now. It's fine. When he asked his father Batman to choose between killing him or letting him kill the Joker, he can't say this was an outcome he expected. But it's fine. Everything is fine.

(It's not fine.)

[eiitsuya]

i die a little every time i see a bat in jason's design

[spiritsglade]

was thinking about how titans tower wasn't even a murder attempt canonically and tim was conscious and aware and able to stand up in the direct aftermath so even though jason was all 'let me show you what the joker did to me' he straight up didn't. lol.

but then it's like. this is the guy who was maximizing his capability for murder over the course of like a year max, if you're pushing the timeline. that's not a lot of time to grasp control over the various techniques. he's three years out from bruce's nonlethal training at this point. so far he's mostly been fighting (1) random goons (2) competent people he wants to kill and (3) batman. who's to say he remembers how to hold back and pull his punches. who's to say he doesn't accidentally kill tim because he wasn't careful enough controlling his strength.