#and then bruce almost killing him in rhato...

[copperheid]

Honestly Bruce has been treating Jason particularly awful the last few years. Like it's just endless.

Most recently it was when he fucked with his brain so that he'd have a panic attack any time his adrenaline was raised, creating an endless feedback of fear as fear itself raises your adrenaline. Not to mention much of everyday life also raises your adrenaline like working out, sex, romance, being annoyed, enjoying a good book/film/game.

And Bruce did not, to my knowledge, actually help remove this when he came to his senses - seemed like whatever the Joker gave Jason fixed it? (Truthfully I didn't read much of zdarskys work after gotham war because I was not enjoying it so it may have been resolved in a later arc - but the fact he didnt fix it at the start of the next arc at least is telling on its own. But he's appeared in other stories and been fine so I assume it was resolved eventually)

Jason regularly seems to just let Bruce walk all over him and treat him extremely poorly, and it's clear Bruce has a low opinion of him in several arcs but Jason thus far has remained downright inexplicably loyal.

I'm starting to wonder if it had all been building up to this heel-turn for Jason.

Personally I think he might take a turn back to being more anti-heroic. It seemed they were testing the waters on that with 3 jokers but that was ultimately not made canon because fans hated jaybabs.

But Jason having more complex morals and being willing to kill does make him more interesting, so having him be strictly non lethal to please Bruce does hamper that.

I don't necessarily think Jason is about to go full supervillian like he used to be, but I do think he might be a lot less willing to put up with Bruce's abuse and a lot more hurt by it.

Bruce is very willing to use excessive force against Jason in a way he rarely does to the rogues. And while yes this could be explained by the fact that Jason is very nearly on par with Bruce as a combatant (both in training and physical strength) so he poses a greater threat in Bruce's mind - that doesn't justify it at all.

Jason has commented on it a few times now - Bruce has now almost killed Jason on multiple occasions. Slitting his throat (UTRH), pulling him off his bike while travelling at speed (Task Force Z), beating him to a pulp (multiple - most notable being RHaTO 25), nearly giving him a heart attack with an incredibly dangerous little brain 'tweak' (Gotham War) and now shooting him in the head (Hush 2), '. It's all been chipping away at their relationship bit by bit.

Going out of his way to save the Joker is just a step too far. Jason has come to understand that Bruce will never kill the Joker outright at this point because he understands Bruce's moral code better, even if he still resents it. But Jason still believes that the world is better off with some people dead. He's a moral utilitarian, so Bruce's deontological moral standpoint does leave them at odds on the issue on whether it is moral to let the Joker die.

As Jason sees it, he can understand Bruce not outright killing - but going out of his way to save him is another matter, because for him it's a trolley problem - Joker on one side of the tracks and his future victims on the other, and the trolley is actively headed for the Joker this time. And to him, Bruce has actively chosen to redirect the trolley towards the future victims. He's not just choosing inaction, it's an active choice to kill countless innocents by saving the Joker.

Bruce of course is just set in his ways that it is always immoral to kill and always moral to save the dying, so they will always be at odds on this issue.

So yeah, I don't think Jason turning heel in this moment, permanently or not, is OOC at all. I think it makes perfect sense and has been a long time coming. Working with Hush is another matter - we'll see how that plays out. Jason is as much a schemer as Bruce and Tommy are. He may be playing them both.

Bruce on the other hand...well, there's enough instances now that it's not technically out of character for him to act like this. But I certainly don't like where his characterisation is going. His ethics are making less and less sense whenever Jason is involved.

…Bruce. You brainwashed him. Your abused son placating you does not mean you made amends.

Also… “The worst of it now. Having to explain my actions.” Do you have any idea how you sound right now Bruce? Well? Do you?!?

As it turns out, Bruce doesn’t even end up explaining his actions. Instead, he shoots his son in the face.

Yeah, I’m not kidding. The man who has trauma about his family being shot proceeds to…shoot his family. And honestly, “I did it to shatter his helmet to make sure he’s not Clayface” is a really terrible excuse. Keep in mind that this occurs during an argument over Bruce saving the Joker yet again.

Anyway. Wanna play spot the difference?

Yeah, the stuff Bruce was saying in RHatO 25 was worse, but the context of Batman 159 is worse. And the fact that Bruce shot Jason in the face. Even with the helmet it’s a true wtf moment.

I don’t know why Jason went “evil” this time but tbh even if it’s not a trick or some secret plan (which it very well could be) I’m kinda with Jason here.

[mikakuna]

i see this jason todd who actually looks his very young age (instead of the 30yr old man that comics like to portray)

and feel my heart breaking just imagining bruce beating him up, almost killing him, mind-breaking him, and just overall being a total piece of shit father towards him.

a huge chunk of the reason why people don't view bruce's actions towards jason as abusive or wrong is because jason doesn't look his age. he's drawn to be this 35yr old father of three who looks even older than dick (and way too on par with bruce) that people see their fights as one between batman and any of his regular rogues. when they fight, it just looks like batman is fighting a man his age and not an actual young person. it doesn't look like batman is fighting his son who's barely even drinking age (and who def wasn't drinking age in utrh). their fights are portrayed in a way that eliminates the very real power struggle between them.

this applies to jason's entire character as well. a lot of people don't sympathize with how he died or his actions as robin or his fights with the other bats because he doesn't look his age. he always looks older and scarier than everyone else. tim has many sympathizers from the titans tower incident because jason just looked like a grown man fighting a 12yr old (even tho i disagree, tim was built and like 17 lmfao).

anyways, i just wish comics would actually draw jason to look his age, which literally ranges from 19 to early twenties. he's young- so young, and it's so annoying to see him drawn and written as someone older than even bruce.

[glitter-stained]

I keep seeing posts about how Jason should have chara development that makes sense regarding his morals and stop killing because of that rather than because Bruce told him to stop and like - it's not like I disagree. Of course, that would be great. Of course I want him to be written his age by writers that like him and have development that makes sense and work with Bruce and Dick and evolve on his own as a person.

But the thing is.

A few weeks ago I saw a critique of His Dark Materials that was so absurdly daft it made me want to peel my skin off. For context, His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman is a children/young adult book set in fantasy worlds that doubles as a retelling of Paradise Lost in which Lucifer wins, and criticism of christianism is preponderant in it. (This will spoil a good part of book 1 of HDM btw). I'm far from a HDM fan, I saw a few episodes of the adaptation and read it once when I was ten and thought the characters and world was fun but the rhythm in the 2nd and 3rd books was off and I didn't like the ending, so like it was fun but I definitely not a re-read for me. But the point is, this critique clearly had a degree in not getting the fucking point, because his arguments against the books clearly stemmed from an inability to shift his viewpoint out of the christian framework (I promise this is still a Jason post). One of his most ludicrous argument was the lack of character depth in HDM. This is particularly silly because one of the main characters, Mrs Coulters, is one of the most interesting complex characters I've ever seen in fiction. Now Mrs Coulters is interesting because she is a bad guy. Like, tortures and kills children level of bad guy. She doesn't magically grow to sacrifice herself in the name of martyrdom to repent for her sins or something silly like that; but still, she sometimes does very good, helpful things for the characters, because the tension between her character is between her ambition (and her faith though that's more questionable) and her motherhood, as she truly loves and cares for her daughter, one of the protagonists, and wants a better, safer world for her. Now the critique claimed that there was no character depth because there was no concept of sin and no redemption arcs in the books- but those are utterly Christian concepts, so of course they wouldn't be endorsed by a book that challenges their validity. Just because Mrs Coulters doesn't have a redemption arc doesn't mean she isn't deep; and the fact that she does good things not out of morality but out of love is what makes her a fascinating character.

So, thinking about that asinine critique, I was suddenly struck with the realization that Jason is somehow similar to Mrs Coulters in that he is a very loving person who tends to put his personal connexions above everything else (of course, he doesn't experiment on and torture children, that's not what I'm saying). My point is, I don't think why we shouldn't have a Jason who evolves not moved by his morals (though he has them and they matter) but by his love. The point of Death in the Family is Jason wanted to be loved and have a family and trying to shield Sheila's body with his and telling her he loved her. The point of UTRH is Jason doing horrible things in the most theatrical, strategically planned mental breakdown as begging for proof of love because he can't reconcile being loved in a different way that he loves and because he can't understand someone putting their moral code over love. And as much as RHATO #25 fills me up with dread, I have to say I love Jason's behaviour in that final stint. "I am my father's son" holy shit what a line. Jason is Willis' son and because of his filial love, his loyalty demands he avenges him. Jason is Bruce's son and because of his filial love, his loyalty demands that he does not kill. Jason almost murders Willis' murderer with a blank bullet and then when Bruce beats hims halfway to death he doesn't defend himself, doesn't fight back (like, one punch but come on, we've seen him fight, he just gives up). That right there? Hate to say it with how questionable RHATO's Jason is in general, but that's peak characterization. The conflict is entirely about Jason's conception of love, family and worldview, and it's deep and interesting and has nothing to do with morality. I want Jason storylines that explore that. I want Jason to work with the batfam in stories that make sense, I want the writers to acknowledge him as a victim and trauma survivor and allow him to grow from there instead of demonizing his mental illness, I want him to stop killing out of love and I want him to allow himself to love in healthier ways and for the width of his love to spread exponentially and for that to affect his behaviour and worldview.

And that's not just because I like Mrs Coulters and dislike the idea of holier than though moral characters! The christic symbolism Jason is crystal clear (especially in Lost Days), but it's not just about Jason: Talia is associated with Mary (which makes sleeping with him that much more obviously incestuous and horrible and ooc), Joker is the Devil and Bruce, of course, is God (which begs such interesting questions about the Holy Spirit - Robin maybe? To explore at a later date). Now, everybody's experience with Christianity differs wildly, but the way I learnt it growing up in catholic culture was basically God being an Authority of Judgement and Law, strict and all about morality; while Jesus is about love, unconditional love, even and especially the sinners and the damned (and as for the devil Lucifer is a fallen angel who fell after losing to God, and Satan is the demonic incarnation of temptation ain't that interesting). So I would argue that by having Jason kill or not kill out of love for his family, Jason is already his own character with autonomous thought process, independent morals and original interesting values that are a breath of fresh air in the world of superhero which is all about moral codes. Additionally, I think it's interesting and full of potential (and hope) that that very thing is why Jason and Bruce are held in opposition so often when in christianism they are two sides of the same coin.

TLDR: Jason going through character development that doesn't involve an evolution of his moral code is a great idea and if executed properly should give us fascinating stories with one of the most interesting characters in the DC universe, I used to think he should get a sort of "redemption arc" after UTRH where he questions his moral code but now I feel like I'm stuck in the same Christian/superhero framework as the pedantic guy who didn't understand His Dark Materials and I refuse to agree with them about anything so now I'm a hardcore "love over morals" Jason girlie. Obviously I still think moral code development would be a good and interesting storyline and better than anything DC is giving us rn, but I think we could do even better without it.

(also Star Sapphire Jason ftw)

[disniq]

i can't believe bruce yellow wallpapered jason

Hi Anon! I know you're probably being facetious, but genuinely it makes absolute and total sense to me given Bruce's history with Jason!

For all of Bruce and Jason's recurring physical beat-down fights, it's the psychological and emotional abuse that's always felt more insidious to me.

This is the man who purposely tricked Jason into returning to the scene of his own brutal murder in the hopes that he would relive his own death so Bruce could figure out how he came back.

Batman and Robin (2011) #20

This is the man who hits Jason harder than he hits the Joker. Who beats his son so badly he can't even fire a gun a month later, and then only shows up to say "you're not welcome in Gotham, your best friend is dead, and you need the occasional beating to keep in line, but we have each other's backs".

RHatO (2016) #25 and #27

This is the man who sent Jason undercover with literal, actual, known villains conducting extremely unethical science experiments, almost getting Jason killed multiple times. And then, when Jason raised concerns about them letting this operation continue, Bruce ignored him, brushed his concerns aside, and treated Jason as though this was all his fault.

Task Force Z #4 and #6

Not to mention Bruce's habit of consistently *starting* fights with Jason and then twisting it around to blame Jason, to make him think it's his choice and not Bruce's.

Task Force Z #6 | Catwoman #57 | RHatO #25

So, yeah.

I can believe Bruce Yellow Wallpapered Jason

[spiritsglade]

hi bell!! 1, 9, 14, 17, 37, 41?

[questions for fic writers]

hi jar!!

1. What fic of yours would you recommend to someone who had never read any of your work? (In other words, what do you think is the best introduction to your fics?)

cicatrix. i don't have much to say here it just falls under the typical tone and style i have. we're focused on jason, we mention the batarang scar, we have a lot of dialogue. it's also relatively short compared to the other first candidates that come to mind lol.

9. How do you find new fic to read?

diving straight into the character tag sorted by date updated and hoping for the best. i do a lot of tag filtering to find things i'm specifically craving. if i'm desperate i'll dip into fic rec collections and bookmarks. (click on the bookmarks of a fic i like -> pick some random username -> peruse that user's bookmarks)

14. Are there any tropes you would only read if written by a trusted friend or writer?

hmm i can still tolerate pretty much every trope i dislike from random authors if i think the underlying fic concept is interesting enough. probably jason's fanon lazarus pit madness, if it's specifically the focus in the fic. i know it can be done in a way that's compelling to me but oftentimes it isn't.

17. What highly specific AU do you want to read or write even though you might be the only person to appreciate it?

hahaha. suicide watch. head in my hands. the current plan is to lock the fuck in on figuring out how to write that beast during summer. i think it's doomed to die a forever death if i don't get any further on it before college rolls around. but also i'm banning myself from looking at or thinking about it until may.

that's the immediate post-batarang-incident essence & jason bonding fic where they both figure out their issues and walk their way through a version of the all-caste rhato plotline that hopefully makes sense. i will write it if it kills me idc.

an adjacent highly specific au that i want to read is one that actually explores the fact that jason chose to mind-wipe his memories after bruce did ethiopia 2.0. i think that would be good and fun and interesting and devastating.

a character choosing to forget on purpose? compelling. how do you handle that. do you think bruce would take advantage of jason not remembering why he's angry.

37. Promote one of your own “deep cut” fics (an underrated one, or one that never got as much traction as you think it deserves!). What do you like about it?

nervous system. i really am fond of nervous system. it's such a fun little thing. the premise was basically 'honestly i think fanon lazarus pit madness would fuck up canon jason's uth plans' and then it turned into a fic that was also about like... idk. jason kills a lot of people during under the hood. he decapitates five low-level drug dealers for selling to kids and this is something that only comes up across a couple of speech bubbles!! do you know how many decapitations that implies total??

anyway i explored him doing things a little more fucked up. like he acknowledges the human cost of killing people, of the approach he's chosen, and the grief that leaves their families but thinks that a worthy sacrifice anyway! and i think that's an interesting angle to examine him from!!

like how do we reconcile the interpretation of jason as someone who kills only the 'truly irredeemable' as a way of vengeance for previous victims and protection for future ones, with the guy who was very much arbitrarily killing everyone who worked under black mask? a fun thought exercise i think.

for non-dc fics no one understands my ocs in Anagnorisis like i do. it's okay calamity ily.

41. Link a fic that made you think, “Wow, I want to write like that.”

The River Catches You by peatmoss. this is a dishonored fic, not dc, but it's one of my favorites and one that i haven't been able to stop thinking about since i first read it... probably shortly after it was first posted, honestly. happy almost two year anniversary to 'can you hold solace? can you pluck it from the wrenhaven like a pearl?'

the imagery is just so powerful but there's this distant drifting to the narration that the second person pov weaves perfectly into. i'm obsessed with it. the way the metaphors tie in to the game?? god. 'the pressure here holds you close like whale oil packed into a firing cylinder, compressed and ready to combust.' i haven't stopped thinking about it ever.

[pluckyredhead]

Red Hood and the Outlaws #2 (2011)

I'm continuing to make choices.

At least Roy remembered to string his bow this time.

When we last left our hero, he had returned to the headquarters of the All-Caste to find a dead old woman named Ducra. Issue #2 begins with a flashback of Talia taking a recently resurrected Jason to "the Hundred Acres of All," which I guess is supposed to sound cool but just makes me think of Winnie the Pooh. Jason meets Ducra, he sasses her, she kicks his ass but agrees to train him.

Cut to "three hours ago" and Jason and Roy on a plane:

Jason dresses extremely formally in this run and it does feel pretty incongruous to me because Jason doesn't strike me as someone who cares for formality or appearances. I've chosen to headcanon this as Jason rigidly emulating Alfred and Bruce's notions of adult male fashion, especially in situations in which he's uncomfortable, because if he can project wealth and power the way Bruce does, maybe people won't see his painful backstory and soft underbelly. It doesn't really work with Jason's love of telling everyone his trauma to make them feel bad for him, but...look, man, RHATO is incredibly bougie, I don't know what to tell you.

Roy, meanwhile, is essentially just a series of scribbles. "Stage three clinger" is kinda funny, though.

(Roy is actually historically very, very good at not clinging to the people who are constantly abandoning him, but he latches onto Jason for dear life. I know that's because this Lobdell has never read a Roy comic before this, or anything at all including a cereal box or his own sentences he has just written, but I choose to believe it's because Jason is special.)

Oh, Isabel, honey. Don't bother climbing unprofessionally into the next seat like a lunatic. The man is Undateable.

(I'm not posting every panel but on the next page she gets him a second drink - "Soft drink, extra ice" - and Jason's like "Good memory!" "SOFT DRINK" IS NOT THE NAME OF A DRINK. "Liquid in a cup." "Good memory!")

Anyway Isabel hurls herself at Jason for a few more panels and then gives him her number and Jason fully and completely cannot process it for some reason:

I know Jason is supposed to come off in this series like a cool macho dude getting all the ladies, but scenes like this just...don't work? If Jason is supposed to be a stud who has already hooked up with Talia, Essence, Rose, and Kori, why can he literally not complete a sentence here? I feel like this reads much more like a very, very young man who missed most of his teen dating years to death and vengeance and has very little experience.

They arrive in Hong Kong, where Kori meets them in a limo. Why fly away from Kori and then meet her in a limo? Apparently just to show Jason and Kori both spending conspicuously so that readers will know they are rich and therefore cool, and for no narrative or characterization purpose. How did Kori get money? Hush your mouth.

Is the "gorilla" in the room Dick? Both Kori and Jason explicitly stated in the previous issue that she doesn't remember him, so why would she be upset here? Is it that Jason and Kori have supposedly slept together and now Roy and Kori are sleeping together? Both Jason and Kori have ALSO explicitly stated that they don't care. Is this dialogue meaningless? Yes!

Jason refuses to take them to his safe house because last time he did they "soiled [his] sheets," which I'm taking as confirmation that they did in fact fuck in his bed last issue. In the safe house, he finds a woman named Suzie Su and her henchmen, who he quickly shoots a bunch and seemingly kills. We don't know who Suzie is or why this matters.

Cut to the team jumping out of a helicopter over the Himalayas during a freak thunderstorm, where we learn that Jason has gloves with metal wings that allow him to fly or at least glide. This is dumb, but it's extra dumb when you remember that Lobdell gave Tim an almost identical gimmick at the same time in Teen Titans. (He writes Jason and Tim identically in general: hyper competent and extremely bougie Gary Stus with the comebacks of a dull 12-year-old.)

They land in the All-Caste HQ to find everyone dead.

NOW HOLD ON JUST A DING-DANGED MINUTE. In issue #1, we explicitly saw Jason leave Roy and Kori in bed and come here for that scene in the middle panel, alone. Now supposedly Roy and Kori are there? We are an issue and a half in and there's already a massive continuity error? WHY DID THIS MAN GET PAID TO WRITE THIS BOOK FOR TEN YEARS???

The All-Caste come back as zombies (why? not explained) and the Outlaws fight them while Jason flashes back to being trained by them, which is just another generic fight scene. At one point Jason calls the All-Caste warriors "the greatest people I have ever known," but like...we haven't gotten a chance to know any of them, so who cares.

Anyway. Jason is sad, and then tells the others "Let's go kick some ass...team." THE END.

Here's the thing. Whenever you're starting a new story, a new comic, a new universe, whatever, there are always going to be things the reader doesn't know, and gradually learns as the story unfolds. It's not a bad thing that there are some unanswered questions.

However, we don't have any actual sense of who the All-Caste were, what they can do, or how long Jason stayed with them. We aren't shown any significant interactions or relationships between him and Ducra or the generic warriors, none of whom have names or distinguishable faces. There's a little uncreatively quippy dialogue from Ducra, but no actual reason for us to care. To follow this plotline, we need to either like Jason or understand the importance of this relationship or the stakes of the Untitled, and none of that has been sold in these two issues. In fact, I don't think the Untitled are even mentioned in this issue. (I mean, I do like Jason, but not because he wore a fat suit, bragged about fucking Kori, and killed some people, which is all he's done so far in this book.)

We also don't know who Essence is or what her history is with Jason or the All-Caste. And we don't know who Suzie Su is, why she was in Jason's safe house, or whether it matters that he (apparently) killed her. We know nothing about Kori except that she knows nothing about herself, and even less about Roy.

Again, some questions are fine and even good, but this many questions makes the book a parade of disconnected, uninteresting events we don't have any reason to care about. Which isn't a big deal when you're marathoning the series through dubious means in 2023, but I sure as hell wouldn't have paid $2.99 every month for this shit back in 2011.

[dcconfessions]

I think all of the fandom are stuck in different eras in a way that makes engaging with the fandom very difficult.

Like, Jason meta will sometimes engage in recent events like Flashpoint didn't happen and Jason hasn't been back in the Batfam far longer than he was villain.

Jason was Robin for about 5 years; a villain for 6 years and has been semi-back in the fold (for the most part) for like 12 years. He has been a villain for a bit over a quarter of his time in comics. That's not insignificant but in the majority of his history he has been a hero. He was Robin or almost as long as he was a villain with more than double the comic appearances as the hero Robin than he has as a villain (countdown barely counts, he was not a villain in most of that).

Yes, his villain era is definitive. But his Hero era and anti-Hero era both have more content than his villain era. Treating his villain era as something he is stuck in and can never from like no other character has ever had a villain era than him: Jericho, Raven, Dick Grayson being a Cop, ect.

I mean, if I was hero when the whole 'Batman made plans to kill the Justice League and they got leaked' happened I would never trust or being willing work with or around him again because the more about me he knows, the more in danger I would be. But being hated and not trusted forever is not the treatment he got and neither was it the treatment Jason got.

But people aren't consistently stuck in that era for Batman like they are Jason Todd. They actually let Batman move past his fuck-ups in a way they refuse to for Jason because they are stuck in his villain era. Jason is at this point no longer the main one at fault for poor relationship between him and Batman: Post-Damian death Ethiopia trip; RHATO #25 and #27; Event: Leviathan; Gotham War, ect. are all far more recent incidents of Bruce fucking up. We are no longer in the era of Jason taking a hatchet to their relationship. Bruce mostly has the hatchet now and Jason is the one seemingly trying to fix and forgive.

.

[nightwingcouldyounot]

Red Hood and the Outlaws (Rebirth)

Do you want to see Red Hood team up with a second team of Outlaws? Read this. 

This one is better then the first story wise despite having a weaker possible connection between the characters. It’s that bit more grounded and while still clearly male-gazy isn’t obnoxiously so. 

I will say I hate how it keeps trying to connect the characters and how much it made the story about Jason’s relationship with his biological father (including bringing him back). Which I understand is almost the opposite critique I had of the previous team (where I wish they spent more time on the fact that Roy and Kori have history with Bruce and Dick as well). But I liked the idea of this was a random bit of fate team up not that actually Artemis “”killed”” Jason’s dad. 

I also didn’t initially enjoy the ‘Bizarro becomes a genius’ storyline but I have to say that the way they handled it especially at the end made me like it. 

In some ways it’s the opposite to the previous RHATO where I liked the premise and hated the execution, here I didn’t like the premise of most of the stories it told but I like the execution enough to overall enjoy it. 

Should you read it? I do actually think it’s worth the read. Overall fun and well enough written that it’s worth the investment. 

[confusedhummingbird]

I don’t know why, but I have a feeling they will use the same lineup from the DCAMU in the Titans. Maybe instead of Blue Beetle, Cyborg will take his place — but since Blue Beetle is already in the DCU, I’m not sure.

I think putting Damian in the Titans is a bad idea. His time with the Titans in the comics wasn’t great, and a lot of the hate he gets today comes from the DCAMU, where they forced him into almost every movie. In my opinion, Damian should stay in the Batman films and explore the father-son dynamic there. It’s been a long time since we’ve had Batman & Robin together on screen.

Honestly, I don’t see Nightwing getting his own project, at least not in the first phase of the DCU. I see him more as support in tbatb (since the focus will be on Bruce and Damian). By now, DC should know that Nightwing is a popular character, so the least they could do is make him part of the Titans (especially since he’s one of the team’s founders).

And I think Dynamic Duo will be an Elseworlds project, so…

Yeah which is such a shame because no matter what movies, Hollywood or even some grumpy Batman fans think, Robin is important and Dick himself is important. He was someone who brought light and happiness back to Bruce's life. Although many current comics want to try and make Bruce more grumpy and cold like he is in later comics, Bruce's time with Dick being good is an important part to both of them. It gives Dick fond memories to look back at and wonder what went wrong when he's older and Bruce is more aggressive which leads to their falling out. And Bruce to remember why he does what he does because being in the dark dreary neverending nightmare of Gotham, it's easy to lose your way. But Dick and the other Robins remind him there is good in this world. There are passionate hearts of innocent kids like he was before his parents were killed. All the Robins are important but Dick especially as Bruce's first Robin. His first kid. Is the one who broke down the walls of Batman to see Bruce Wayne and remind him of a time lost and that it's okay to have happy moments.

Sorry for that tangent Hollywood and even sometimes DC's treatment of Robins upsets me.

I'm not sure how much pre James Gunn stuff they're gonna keep especially with a new Superman and probably new Batman at some point, so I'm not sure if we'll ever see Jaime or at least that version of Jaime again.

I also agree with Damian. I love Damian. He's an interesting character. But he's not really a team player much. He can be but putting him with much older heroes instead of young kids his own age isn't the way to go. And especially not as a leader to them. Hot take honestly, I don't think it makes sense for any of the Robins but Dick to be leaders. Dick has the right level of skills, person skills, charisma, and teamworking to be a leader but some of the other Robins don't. Like I honestly love that YJ 1998 made Cassie the leader towards the end, because she honestly makes more sense as the leader and Tim to be a second in command/tactician. I feel he fits that role better and I'm sorry even without my hatred of RHATO, Jason would not have been the leader of that team. Both Kory and Roy were far more experienced heroes and it makes sense for them to be leaders (No I don't care the New 52 was a reboot it sucked and destroyed characters) Jason isn't a leader guy. And much like Jason neither is Damian.

Stephanie also wouldn't really work as a leader either if they actually let her have a life and friends outside of Gotham again. Duke might be able to since he had the We Are Robin movement but it's a bit different between a group of kids and actual heroes. But I could see him taking a leader role when he's older and more experienced.

Sorry for another tangent

TLDR: They probably won't include Dick and I'm not shocked but I'm still frustrated about it. And I agree about Damian.

[trekkele]

How much violence do you think Batman should be able to get away with while still remaining as "one of the good guys"?

There are times where he is way more brutal than necessary to just your average crook. Threatening someone with crushing their skull with the Batmobile (Arkham games), to beating people senseless and unnecessarily risking them dying (some choices in the Telltale Batman game), to cutting a cannibal's finger off for threatening only Bruce himself and no one else's life (although obviously he killed some people already) (a Batman/Catwoman comic), breaking criminals' bones as an intimidation tactic before and/or after they told him everything (comics, games, movies,...), etc.

Like that's some really unheroic things to do and Bruce sometimes admits to liking dishing out this kind of punishment. But then he turns around and preaches to everyone how they went too far for breaking ONE bone, especially to the Robins. How many people really know this vicious and cruel side of Bruce, I wonder...

How would you imagine the Batkids reacting to a video of Batman calmly and in a calculated way torturing information out of someone, almost like a real villain? And his cruelty rivals that of Jason during his utrh and rhato days where he was the most mentally unstable and that's like a Tuesday for Bruce? And what if that video is a few years old, and shows a little Robin (Dick or Jason, maybe) being sent away to stake some place out or to return to the cave just a few minutes prior? Obviously they'd be horrified, but what then? Do they go looking for what happened after the torture and maybe find out it was for vital information that relsulted in stopping the city from getting blown up and that the victim was then rehabilitated and now works for Wayne Enterprises.

Just, Batman's methods were horrifying but it was enough to shake/scare this specific person out of a criminal life style, then give him a well-payed job in one of the branches of WE in another city without Batman, now having built a family with kids and the guy looks the happiest he's ever been. And this case isn't the only one, and a majotity of criminals end up like this, with only a few ending up the same as before or worse.

Like, how are you supposed to react to that??? This is the same man that's upstairs working on a charity project for orphans and cancer patients right now! You're going to be sitting at the dinner table together! The man's a father figure to most of them! What. The. Fuck.

I mean i have an answer but i dont think youre going to like it.

I think a Batman that is unnecessarily violent/cruel, or is for the sake of being violent/cruel, is a Batman that is out of character.

And i think the fact that he does enjoy being Batman, is part of it. He knows he’s violent, he knows violence is cruel, he knows he enjoys it a little more then he should. That the reason he has such a tight leash on … literally every aspect of being Batman.

Also, scolding the Robins for being too violent is obvious? Those are kids, they’re still being trained. I know fandom likes to paint every bit of parenting Bruce does as hypocritical or overbearing, but cmon on now. Being capable of something doesnt mean you have to go through with it. His kids were always meant to be better then him, and that means keeping their hands as clean as possible.

Also torture is proven to be ineffective, and if Batman is anything efficient. So thats out of character too ¯\ _(ツ)_/¯

(And Jason wasnt mentally unstable during UTRH or RHATO. He ran a criminal empire bbyboy was very stable.)

What your real question is is “Does the end Justify the means and if so to what extent” and the answer is both “no” and “it depends but probably also no”.

Also is there a reason you sent this verbatim to @frownyalfred and then to me right after i reblogged one of their posts or is that just a fun little coincidink

Edit: that last question sounds very accusatory, its not! Im just curious because this is a pretty well thought out, thorough ask, so like it does make sense that you would have copy-pasted it, but also the timing was pretty pat. Im also not expecting an answer so im not sure why i even asked.

[galaxymagitech]

hello! for the fic ask game, ↻ flip flop for True or False? around the end of the phone call where dick finds out about the batarang. i'd also like to hear the ∆ do over for it :]

Thank you so much for the ask!!!! Sorry for the delay, I went a little overboard. Which seems to be a pattern with this ever-expanding series.

Ask Game | True or False

∆ DO OVER: pick a fic and I’ll tell you if there’s anything I’d change or do differently if I wrote it today!

I wouldn't have Dick confirm that Jason tried to make Batman kill the Joker. I maintain that this is, from both Jason and Bruce's point of view, what the confrontation was about; Jason understands that letting Jason shoot the Joker is equivalent to killing him for Bruce, and this is why he would be satisfied with that result. But that simple confirmation lacks that nuance, and makes it seem like Dick's actually convincing Jason of something that isn't true.

I also would have set this fic in Rebirth. At the time I had no plan whatsoever to continue the fic, but Bruce's treatment of his kids in Post-Crisis isn't as horrific as he often acts in the New 52 and Rebirth. It's resulted in this story where the Batkids take Bruce down for being abusive, but I'm constantly second-guessing myself because I'm not even fully convinced that Bruce is abusive in Post-Crisis. I mean, obviously some people agree that he is, and I'm able to justify it in writing, but...that doubt makes this series a lot harder to write. Maybe that's what makes it so interesting to write, but it would be nice to have a couple more concrete examples (RHatO 25, the Talon tooth incident, Spyral, etc.) and not constantly be wondering if I'm being ridiculous.

There's also the canon compliance aspect. This fic is set in a nebulous "shortly after UtRH" time, but this actually contradicts One Year Later, which I didn't know about at the time. Now, honestly, I hate One Year Later, but it would have been easier to just set the fic in Rebirth for this reason as well.

↻ FLIP FLOP: send me a scene from one of my fics and I’ll describe or write it from another character’s POV!

I went completely overboard with this one, so it's now a full 2.9k word fic. I wanted to try to get in Dick's head to figure out what he'd be thinking and it spiraled.

The fic: https://archiveofourown.org/works/63923383

But the specific scene you asked for if you don't want to read the fic (warning for vomiting and Dick briefly losing track of where he is):

“False,” Dick rushes to say. Jason’s death had been deeply wrong. His resurrection had been the universe correction its mistake. “You’re supposed to be alive.” Dick’s almost at Jason’s location. He just has to keep Jason on the line and pray that the tracing result wasn’t a decoy. “You’re my brother, and—”

Dick’s gauntlet pings.

There’s the footage, playing out across its small screen, accompanied by a message.

B fucked up.

Frozen with horror, Dick watches a batarang deflect off a pipe in slow motion and slice through Jason’s neck. Watches Jason fall, wound gushing blood. Watches the Joker laugh as Jason bleeds out.

Something in Dick’s chest snaps. Bruce—

Bruce—

Jason—

Dick needs to say something. But he doesn’t even know what he can say. That’s a kill-shot. That’s a kill-shot. On Dick’s little brother.

Jason bleeds out on his screen. Dick’s stomach roils, and then he’s throwing up on the rooftop.

The taste of vomit curls into his brain and digs its talons in. As his diaphragm spasms, Dick realizes that he can’t get his lungs to expand. It was already a bad day. And now he can’t—he can’t breathe—he can’t—

Jason’s breaths are ragged in his ear. Dick slams his eyes closed, blocking out the view of the rooftop and his puddle of vomit and forcing himself to breathe. He can’t lose it right now. Jason needs him.

Gotham’s air fills Dick’s lungs. It smells different from Blüdhaven’s smog—more strange toxins but less pollution from years of Wayne initiatives. It feels different, too. Dick is in Gotham, and Jason is on the other end of the comm line.

Somehow, Dick finds his voice. It’s barely a whisper, but it’s there, and that’s enough. “True. I’m sorry, Jason. I’m—fuck, I’m sorry. It’s true.”

[bookfandomtalk]

Wasn't the Tim and Jason get along the best one literally made canon? It definetely was a plotpoint in that one new 52 joker arc that literally created a crossover between RHATO, TT, Batman, BG, and probably more I can't recall rn. And I'm like 99% sure that's still canon even in Rebirth.

And the violent robin one... He wasn't super violent, but he was violent enough that Bruce did think him capable of murder. Like, Dick was almost definitely worse, but Jason wasn't all rays of sunshine in his time as Robin.

Now one can make the argument that it was his second phase as Robin where he became more violent and that was a pretty weird shift (after all, DC wanted the fans to dislike him so much that they would kill him) but unfortunately, that doesn't change the fact that it is canon, even if it was terrible writing.

And genuine question, what even is the Roy one talking about?

Anyway, my main point is: If it was written in canon, it is canon. People taking it as the truth isn't having a misconception, they're right.

DC is a mess, so often multiple interpretations can be correct at the same time, and if you want to ignore canon because it doesn't make sense to you, go ahead. But don't claim that other's interpretations are wrong simply because they don't line up with your interpretations of canon.

[batfamcraze]

My thoughts on DC vs Vampires #6

I really liked this issue because SHIT HIT THE FAN!!! THERE’S SO MUCH DRAMA!!!

BUT I have issues because the plot and characterization is all over the place so lets talk about it lol 

(Spoilers under cut duh)

I’m glad that Joker isn’t on the vampire team and vampire leader because he’s dead. The writers were flirting with the idea that Joker could be a big vampire but I’m glad that he's not involved at all. As it should (If only DC would kill him in a canon comic maybe I'd be happier lol).

This is definitely foreshadowing:

I think it’s possible that someone will kill Dick since he’s the Vampire King, but it won't be Bruce that's for sure.

If Bruce survives and shows up in the next issue, I will actually be mad because nah look at this he’s definitely dead:

The feels 😭

Dick is looking very sexy rn yup

God Alfred’s face, he's literally in shock and poor Dami 💔

Hopefully nobody takes this the wrong way, but Dick claiming that he’s better than all of the Batfam is not a stretch since he definitely has the most experience imo. So Dick saying this to Cass should not be taken personally, nobody can take Cass’ amazing fighting skills but Dick has won against others who had huge fighting advantages against him. And Vampire Dick winning the fight makes sense because the vampires have powers, and the plot is in their favour at the moment so it makes sense for the heroes to lose rn and maybe win in the final issue. 

If you’re offended by his statement you could interpret this scene differently: Dick said it to hurt Cass so he can win the fight by mocking her. BUT I don't think that he would need to do that because he's a newly-turned powerful Vampire, he would’ve won the fight regardless because you know, he has powers now. So this interpretation doesn’t make sense.

I understand if people are still offended by this, because Cass still gets treated poorly by DC in canon continuity.

Dick calling Bruce “Father” rubs me the wrong way because it implies that he doesn’t see Bruce as a father-figure, and that bothered me. I hope he said that to hurt Tim and that the real Dick inside doesn't believe that statement.

Jason goes back to try to save Damian 💔

Oof this page is a mess lol

Dick: “You can't win, Jason. I was better than you everytime that we ever faced off, and now I’m godlike.”

Fair lol

Jason: “I was holding back.”

I think this line is supposed to redeem Jason to show that he IS an extremely skilled vigilante because of writers doing him dirty for years. They are trying to re-establish his competence (See Task Force Z #6). Jason NEVER said “I was holding back because I’m better than you” he says SIMPLY “I was holding back” which means that Jason holds back in fights when he’s fighting against his family members and that they underestimate him (Example 1: RHATO Rebirth #25, Bruce almost beats Jason to death and Jason doesn’t even fight back in the end, he lets Bruce hurt him). People are reading this too seriously and think that Jason is shitting on Dick here but I don't see that. So Dick Stans don't take out your pitchforks and torches just yet!

This issue is also co-written by Rosenberg, who is currently writing Jason in Task Force Z so I’m pretty sure this is what they’re going for.

Dick: “It’s not too late to join me, Jason. I’m suddenly in need of a new Lieutenant.” (Rip Hal lol)

Jason: “All these years spent living in your damn shadow, and you think I want to spend eternity under you? You don't get me at all, man. [...] Everyone said you were the best to ever do it. [...] But I always knew someday you’d screw up worse than anyone.”

Ok NOW Dick Stans can get angry lol (Myself included). This is really not it. I really hate this new relationship dynamic they're writing between Dick and Jay rn because he’s never had this animosity towards Dick before. Discowing Dick and Robin Jay used to be really close, when Jason was Robin he was compared to Dick by Bruce a few times but Alfred told him to stop. 

From Batman (1940) #410: Alfred asking Bruce to stop talking about Dick too much.

When Jason came back as Red Hood and became an anti hero, they established a decent brotherly/coworker relationship and kept their distance (Leaving out Jason’s Evil era because most of it isn’t canon anymore). Jason “hating” Dick is a fanon interpretation that is slowly weaselling itself in the comics and I am NOT a fan. 

Dick: “Sounds like you have a lot of issues to work through. [...] Luckily you’ll have centuries to do it. [...] Did you really think she was going to stay tied up forever?”

OHHH SHIT

Dick getting cornered by Jason was definitely a setup to turn him into a vampire 100%.

Omg my heart 💔 Jay tried to kill Dick but lost because of their trap, and asks Oliver to kill him. This scene is really good, I liked it a lot. 

Even though I wanted to see him be evil and join the vampires, it makes sense for Jason’s character to sacrifice himself. I’m emotional.

Umm Dick... this was you 5 seconds ago:

You killed Tim with NO hesitation 🤨

I didn't know that you’re such a picky bitch Dick SKSKSSKSKSKSKSKKSKS

NOOOO poor Dami 😭 

I’m already impatient for next month because I wanna see what happens to him, he needs to be okay and back with his family!!! 😠 

So that was all of my thoughts on DC vs Vampires #6, it had its rocky moments for sure but I'm not taking this seriously because its a non-canon story. Dick finally has a huge part in a story that isn't canon, and isn’t dead for once (the others haven't been spared lol). We will just have to see how it ends because I hope it gets better ♥️ 

[a-common-haitian-name]

Hate the idea that “Bruce can’t change because Jason won’t change” when it should be the opposite like “Jason can’t change because Bruce won’t change” like Bruce had a MAJOR part in Jason becoming Red Hood whether he likes it or not and also THE ONUS SHOULD NOT BE ON THE CHILD TO CHANGE THE ADULT. BRUCE IS A GROWN ASS MAN WHO REFUSES TO CHANGE FOR THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM.

Jason was NINETEEN when he came back to Gotham FIFTEEN when he died and TWELVE when he first became Robin he was young and impressionable and full of emotion and needed guidance that Bruce failed to give him completely (although he did try). And like it or not Bruce BETRAYED Jason MULTIPLE TIMES.

He let his death go unavenged (and yes against my better judgment I wanted him to kill the joker or let Jason do it), he KILLED Jason AGAIN in UTRH (my beloved), BEAT HIM ALMOST TO DEATH in RHATO (derogatory), and worst off he REVIVED THE JOKER AFTER DICK KILLED HIM ARE YOU SERIOUS??? He tries to get Jason out of JASON’S OWN CITY AS IF HE OWNS THE PLACE, and then he only accepts Jason back when he gives up guns in Urban Legends (derogatory) like I HATE IT I hate that Bruce doesn’t even consider [Jason’s] side of things and he expects everybody to listen to HIM and follow HIS WAY instead of ever changing like he’s THE ADULT! He’s supposed to be mature but instead he turns his head up at any valid criticism Jason throws his way and instead expects Jason to bend to his will and gets mad when he doesn’t.

It’s bullshit and I’ll say it till the end.

[luminescentauthor]

BATMAN URBAN LEGENDS #6 IS ICONIC

SPOILERS ABOUND YOU’VE BEEN WARNED

BI TIM DRAKE???? BI TIM DRAKE BITCHES HOLY F U C K

Jason’s perfect world??? Being one where Bruce did in the joker and the family accepts Jason and he breaks down crying in Bruce’s arms BROKE MY FUCKING HEART

as did Bruce’s perfect world: he kills the Joker for Jason and then Jason thanks him and then he sees Jason standing in the middle of a cluster of family, laughing and smiling and it really just reaffirms this idea that Bruce wants to kill the Joker, he wants to so badly, and he can’t because he’s promised the world that he’ll be something greater than he is, and he has to live up to the symbol, and I think some part of Bruce hates himself for that, that he is putting his duties as Batman before his duty to his son.

Interesting detail: in Jason’s fantasy, Jason wore a dark gray shirt and was his actual height whereas in Bruce’s he wore a red and was shorter? I think that can be taken as Bruce thinking “in a perfect world he never died” and also “I miss seeing him happy and I’ve never seen him that way as an adult” (fics where adult Jason laughs/smiles and Bruce just stops breathing kill me every time.) (Emphasis on Bruce hasn’t seen him that way as an adult. the outlaws have.)

BRUCE ALMOST KILLED CHEER AND JASON STOPPED HIM BECAUSE “THIS ISN’T YOU, EVEN IF MOST DAYS I WISH IT WAS” AND THAT FIXED MY BROKEN HEART AND I CANNOT TELL U HOW LONG I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THAT EXACT MOMENT IN DC

BI TIMOTHY JACKSON DRAKE-WAYNE AND HE HAS A BOYFRIEND

Oracle and Jason’s Entire Dynamic is Absolutely Hilarious and i love them, your honor

Jason wearing a batsuit + red hood mask gives me life

BI TIM BI TIM BI TIM BI TIM BI TIM-

Jason giving up firearms! Because while he still believes certain people deserve to die, he also hates the collateral damage and death has consequences! good on Jason also HOLY SHIT FINALLY THE MORAL CODE DEVELOPMENT WE DESERVE (pspsp dc all-blades as main weapon-)

(No, I don’t think Jason has sworn off killing; I think that was him saying “ugh fuck it fine guns are too easy to accidentally kill someone with, as fun as they are.” Tyler and his mom was a VERY rude reminder of the consequences of taking lives without consideration and Jason just went “hm. What if no.”) (do you really think Jason needs guns to kill people??? he was trained by the all-caste and the league of assassins.)

BRUCE INVITING JASON TO FAMILY DINNER

Bruce sent Jason what looks a hell of a lot like the uniform he wore before, and it very clearly has the red batsymbol on it HOLY SHIT JASON IS WEARING THE BATSYMBOL AGAIN YEE

Jason killed someone in rage like maybe a month ago and Bruce invited him to family dinner anyway because Jason showed clear remorse and that is so different from The Disaster I Pretend Didn’t Happen That Was RHatO Vol 2 and I am HERE FOR IT (i will go on pretending that Jason was injured in the explosion, not by Batman, and Batman didn’t get there until after Arsenal did, just in time to see Arsenal disappear into the distance with Red Hood.)

listen i understand that some people like loner antihero Jason (and I actually totally get this, because he’s a badass who takes No Shit and i adore him for that) (I also admittedly have a soft spot for Totally Ruthless Jason shows off What Exactly He’s Capable Of a la Arkham Knight), but I am one of the fans that desperately craves “Jason gets to heal and eventually reaches the conclusion that yes, some people are truly assholes and deserve to die, but most people (including himself, despite the fact that he has killed) deserve a chance at redemption” and/or “Jason deserves to be able to live his best life and if the blood on his hands is haunting him, he should stop killing for the sake of no one other than himself because he got a second chance at living and he deserves to live it goddammit.”

BECAUSE IT CANNOT BE SAID ENOUGH, TIM DRAKE IS CANONICALLY GOING ON A DATE WITH A BOY AND I LOVE THEM SO MUCH HOLY FUCK

[evilwickedme]

From a different angle, I think so many writers flub him when they try to make him overtly masculine (ahem RHatO, anyone?) because it directly contradicts the extremely emotional "feminine" personality that has become an undercurrent inherent to his character. He is melodrama. He would fit so well in any random soap opera (although tbf to some extent so could most comics characters), but it's more than that - he is defined by his victimhood in a way almost always reserved for female characters. Not only is he never allowed to move on from it - something I've discussed before - but his reaction to it is emotional to an extreme. In a way, it almost seems as if he doesn't actually want revenge. That is, his ultimate purpose in UTRH wasn't to get Bruce to kill the joker - it was to get Bruce to prove that he loves him.

The hyper masculine "outlaw" concept feels shallow and not well thought out for him (as well as for everyone caught in Lobdell's web) because it feels discordant. Here's this macho man flying around in space and getting all the girls - seeming uninterested in both the action and the girls. He's always being brought back to confront what happened in Gotham, his family, his trauma.

Jason isn't allowed to move on from his trauma at all, of course, due to the necessary tension being brought into the narrative from its constant milking. But for all his scheming and plotting, the parts where he actually tries to do something about the trauma fall apart as he damsels, waiting for Bruce to save him. He's always going to be waiting for Bruce to save him. He meticulously (re)creates the circumstances required for Bruce to save him, and Bruce declines.

I don't even know what I'm saying anymore. Jason in a corset send tweet

The thing about "he's so female coded" is that it's usually bullshit like almost 100% of the time. But Jason Todd was literally fridged and so much of his character makes way more sense if you view him as a female coded victim. It's actually ridiculous