#all sides of syscourse can interact

[manyminded]

ily plurals ily neopronouns users ily plural neopronouns users, either by specific headmate or collectively

[voiarc-draws]

fictive bomb 💥💥💥

[nexus-nebulae]

this is a silly fun joke poll if anyone comments legit syscourse i am hitting you with my beam attack

[hellhounds-hellscape]

I hope I'm not just a syscourse blog to you guys but also an annoyance you have no other choice but to view on your dash until you inevitably block me

[sysmedsaresexist]

We really need to come up with better terms for syscourse stances because the main ones aren't cutting it

Anti endo can mean everything from staunch disbelief and bad, aggressive posts to completely believing that endogenic systems are real and valid but not wanting them to interact with CDD-specific content

Being pro endo can mean someone believes DID is caused by trauma and that the CDD community must be protected above all else, to people actively villainizing CDD systems and everything in-between

Endo neutral can mean everything from not caring at all about syscourse and refusing to engage, to allowing interaction from all sides without judgement despite personal beliefs

Anti-misinformation had promise at one point in reference to the massive amounts of misinformation in both communities, but it wasn't working

Any and all of these labels can mean you think the DSM or ICD directly affirms endogenic systems and they can also mean that person has never picked up a DSM in their life

NONE OF THESE ARE WORKING

None of them are accurate

None of them convey the full picture

These are useless labels

(I don't want to hear a peep about the syscourse code, that's not cutting it either, no one has time for that)

People getting upset over pro endo mods on anti endo blogs don't realize that you can share the exact same beliefs about science and the communities and use opposing labels.

Some pro endo blogs should try putting an anti endo on their team to control misinformation and point out ableism, seriously, interaction is how you start learning, anti endos seem more willing to take that step than pro endos and that's pathetic

I also think it might be good to remove the focus from the validity and acceptance of endogenic systems (anti/pro endo) and place it back on what's important-- protecting traumatized individuals

Maybe something like "#CDDs first" can convey that your intention, attention, and audience will always prioritize the CDD community and their safety, but even that... someone can be well-intentioned when they misquote things

I don't know, I'd love to hear the communities' thoughts-- both pro and anti, I'd like this to spread around a bit, I think it's important that people realize that labels don't mean there's disagreement on ideas and concepts-- a pro endo can share the same goals and ideas as an anti endo and vice versa

For example, at this point, I'll happily interact with anyone who agrees that DID is a childhood trauma disorder. That's it. That's my bar. No more, no less. There are pro endos who believe the exact same things I do on all fronts, despite calling me anti endo.

It really just doesn't make sense.

Maybe together we can come up with something better

[sophieinwonderland]

Wishing for anti-endos to loose all their friends and spaces and to be ostracized does not help pro-endos. It makes anti-endos even more set in their beliefs. It makes people who are on the fence go "yikes, I guess the anti-endos are right". I'm firmly pro-endo and your recent post makes me want to take some distance. This isn't how we gain allies.

I know, these people suck. I know, it hurts to constantly be excluded and hated for the way our brains work or the reason why they work that way. I know, many anti-endos are too far gone and aren't people that you or I can reason with unless they decide to unpack their shitty beliefs.

But posts threatening them is not the way to go. They already see us as the enemy. We don't need to add fuel to the fire. Let's make sure people who are on the fence or who don't know much about non-traumagenic systems see us acting in ways that make them want to listen to our side instead of the fakeclaimers. Let's make sure anti-endos who are starting to rethink their beliefs feel like it's safe for them to do so and to start listening to pro-endos.

I'm sure this post is gonna get lots of interaction. But if it makes people less likely to read your studies, to listen to your arguments, to hear out the systems messaging you about their experiences? That's all for nothing.

I... actually think adding fuel to a fire can be useful sometimes. As long as you can keep it a controlled burn.

I'm counting on most anti-endos on Tumblr who would be scrolling through the syscourse tag already having me blocked. They won't see my post.

I'm counting on neutrals probably not following my blog or the syscourse tag either one. And most of those that do follow syscourse have already made their minds up about me.

I made that post for a very specific audience. One that doesn't actually need anyone to fuel its fire because they've built an entire community on seeking out systems to mock and attack. They already cherry pick the worst posts they can find to keep their friend group indoctrinated. So adding one more to the pile shouldn't matter to that specific group.

I don't think anything I say is actually going to make them hate the endogenic community more than they already do because they're surrounded constantly by people who will always reinforce that very generalized hate.

But I do think I can direct that hate they already have. Focus it as much as possible on one specific person. Me.

And the more they see me as a threat, (whether or not I am,) the more hateful they respond to me, the more their community will crack.

Users will be more likely to break their rules, making moderation in their subreddit more difficult for the unpaid mod team who will hopefully start rethinking how much of their life they want to dedicate to a hatesub moderating an angry userbase with nothing to show for it.

And while a slim hope, I'm waiting for them to be pushed far enough for Reddit to ban the whole subreddit.

So yeah. I don’t mind tossing as much fuel on the fire as possible if there's a chance their ableist hatesub burns.

Besides... I'm not actually saying anything untrue.

Plurality IS going to become more accepted. They ARE losing the scientific argument. And anti-endos and cringizens WILL lose friends and community support as plural acceptance spreads unless they're willing to change. A safe space for endogenic systems can never be one that houses anti-endos.

This is not a threat. This is a promise. It's a natural result of progress. And I'll do my part to accelerate this. But it's going to happen with or without my involvement.

I'm just making sure that when it does and they go looking for someone to blame because things have gone bad in their lives and their bigotry caught up with them, they'll direct their anger toward me instead of anyone else.

(Although maybe they can direct it inwards too since, you know, it was their fault for being bigots. But I think that would be too much to ask for.)

[afuckingsystemsthoughts]

being a DID system and being in the online plural community is exhausting. systemscringe, not knowing whos faking and whos not because systemscringe makes it seem like the least thing is cringe and/or a sign someone is faking, endos stealing whatever terms they want (tulpa- cultural appropriation, system- a medical term for DID/OSDD, and anything else they want) the whole anti endo vs pro endo thing pulling off awareness and activism for DID/OSDD onto endos (who are not scientifically proven to exist yet) anti endos baiting endos into looking like bullies, endos baiting anti endos into looking like bullies, anti endos and endos actually being bullies, feeling like youre not valid enough because one side whines about their dramatic dissociation and how much they hate having DID while the other side spreads positivity while also spreading misinformation and/or making plurality a quirk or trend. having to deal with all that while also dealing with memory lapses, derealization, impulses, denial of trauma, self loathing, splitting, trauma responses that make you look crazy to other people, and the heavy drama of the online plural community is way too much.

as a host of a system affected by syscourse and really the online plural community, my advice is: don't let anyone tell you how to have your disorder. don't use social media as a verified source for what goes on (or should go on) in your head. nobody on social media knows you to know if youre valid or not even if they studied psychology or have DID/OSDD themselves. only you can make that decision based on your internal experiences and the diagnostic criteria. don't listen to negativity but also keep a grain of salt handy for any system positivity on social media. don't rely on most online plural spaces for support. online people exaggerate and irl people dont even open up about anything they suffer from. take both online and irl interactions with a grain of salt too. the point? don't listen to others, only listen to you, what you have and the answer to what you have is within you.

[intuspluric-culture-is]

Blog Introduction

Hello! Welcome to our very own "___ culture is" blog. We hadn't seen any for this topic yet, so here it is! In this post, we'll explain what this is all about and the rules we have in place before you can think about sending anything.

So, what is this about?

An intuspluric or intra-system relationship refers to relationships, attractions and connections between headmates of the same system. This is often understood within a romantic context, but can apply to any sort of relationship, be it platonic, queerplatonic, familiar or anything else. Definition adapted from the following Pluralpedia pages:

The purpose of this blog is to share culture (AKA relatable situations, moods or personal anecdotes) by any system who experience those kinds of relationships! If this sounds interesting, be sure to read the following rules before participating:

1. Submissions must be posted in the form of asks.

This is just for uniformity's sake. Instead of sending submissions, select the option to send an ask and share your ideas through there. Additionally, all culture asks must start with "Intuspluric culture is", "In-sys culture is" or any variations that might fit the specified relationship type.

All types of relationships are allowed, and we will try our best to tag accordingly, but we don't have any strict format set in place.

2. This is not a social blog.

While it's fine to send non "culture is" asks, please still keep them on topic. We might occasionally try to answer questions related to being a system, having intuspluric relationships, etc. But don't forget that this is not the focus of our blog and we won't always be able to help you. Please look for specialized blogs, Discord servers, or r/plural for dealing with such matters.

If you want to be friends with the mods, that's great! Go follow us on our main account @kazanfamily and interact us with there!

3. No syscourse allowed.

For the sake of remaining impartial, anyone is welcome to submit an ask to this blog, regardless of their syscourse stance. If that makes you uncomfortable, simply ignore our blog or ask to be blocked. That said, avoid making references to your opinions on the topic, or bringing syscourse to the notes. I don't care which side you're on, this is not the place for it. Just keep it civil and stay in your lane.

(Flag made by us, using the symbol from the Intra-System Relationships page on Pluralpedia. The colours don't mean anything, we just chose them for aesthetic value.)

[circular-bircular]

I agree with a lot of criticisms of the endogenic community, but I've also seen exactly the same stuff in the traumagenic community.

I've seen plenty of traumagenic systems spread misinformation. A good chunk of syscoursers I see on here can't even get the definition of endogenic right. There's also stuff like making blanket statements that "real" systems do that I see almost constantly. Not to mention the entire fact that OSDD-1a and OSDD-1b aren't an actual diagnosis and the source of this is a DID resource that seems reputable.

It also feels like making abusers within the community an "endogenic thing" when it isn't. There are plenty of abusers in this community or people who use abuse tactics that are traumagenic systems. I've never seen any anti-endos call out these systems or abuse and harassment within their own community.

Not to mention how much endogenic systems with later in life trauma experience gatekeeping. Fucking hell I hate that syscourse with constant invalidation is a thing in a community where people DISSOCIATE. Which includes derealization. I literally can't interact with the CDD community half the time despite having OSDD because I will almost always get triggered to dissociate. Then people act all self assured about posting invalidation in the CDD tags because they don't see endogenic systems as people anyway.

These communities don't stop and end at Discord. Tumblr's plural community skews far younger than it does on other websites, hell if you use Reddit there's endogenics who are in their 30s and 40s on there.

I guess it's like yeah the endogenic community is bad on here, but the traumagenic community can be too.

(Honestly I'd also say a lot of endogenic harassment might also boil down to a trauma response. Being constantly told you don't exist weighs heavily down on a person's psyche and it's reasonable to lash out. I feel like whenever I interact at the community I hit my limit so quickly. There's a bit of a level of privilege non-endogenic systems have because they aren't the ones who's literal personhood and existence aren't constantly being questioned. Syscourse is a demeaning, awful experience.)

Okay. I'm finally done grading for the night. Time to tackle this monstrosity.

I agree with a lot of criticisms of the endogenic community, but I've also seen exactly the same stuff in the traumagenic community.

Let me just stop you right there, since I've been simmering over your ask the entire day and I don't feel like mincing words.

I have also criticized the traumagenic community.

In my experiences, I have had far less problems in traumagenic communities than in endogenic communities. To be fair, this is likely because I'm a traumagenic system, and I need spaces for myself.

If what you meant is anti-endo spaces, then I'm sorry to say that I'm not one for conflating CDD systems with being anti-endo. That's an entirely different argument.

I've seen plenty of traumagenic systems spread misinformation. A good chunk of syscoursers I see on here can't even get the definition of endogenic right. There's also stuff like making blanket statements that "real" systems do that I see almost constantly. Not to mention the entire fact that OSDD-1a and OSDD-1b aren't an actual diagnosis and the source of this is a DID resource that seems reputable.

Like I said, already addressed, even in the very post everyone's been so upset about. The post where I said "All sides have issues, but specific sides have specific issues." There are big issues in traumagenic spaces, such as the propensity for trauma bonding, or blanket statements about "real systems." But

I see that from endogenic spaces too, so please be clear if this is a "both sides have this problem" thing (which I said already) or a "traumagenic systems are worse about this" thing (which I disagree with). Also don't even bother being clear, because I don't think I wanna hear from you again due to the end of your ask.

I don't give a fuck about "official diagnosis" stuff in a community of individuals who are trying to survive. I don't care that 1A/1B are not "official diagnosis" stuff, particularly as it used to be used to describe DDNOS, and there are still systems alive today with that diagnosis. Like, have I not made it fucking clear on this blog that I don't care how people identify, as long as it isn't hurting anyone or going against the truth? The DSM is not the end-all-be-all of all things DID. That includes 1A/1B delineations.

It also feels like making abusers within the community an "endogenic thing" when it isn't. There are plenty of abusers in this community or people who use abuse tactics that are traumagenic systems. I've never seen any anti-endos call out these systems or abuse and harassment within their own community.

[Stares in flashbacks to the callout posts for that "self-identified MAP" anti-endo who killed themselves due to the harassment they received from the anti-endo community]

[Stares in flashbacks to the callout posts about SAS for literally every single fucking thing ever, despite not even identifying as anti-endo anymore]

[Stares in the shit I've kept to myself as a victim of people because my trauma is hard to overcome, and that shit stays in therapy]

[Stares in "I fucking call-out anti-endos on a regular basis, where the fuck have you been, it's just that the majority I see nowadays are blockable trolls who aren't worth the goddamn time, and as I ALREADY FUCKING SAID, I AM CALLING OUT THE BEHAVIOR OVER THE PEOPLE AT THIS POINT.]

Anyways.

Not to mention how much endogenic systems with later in life trauma experience gatekeeping. Fucking hell I hate that syscourse with constant invalidation is a thing in a community where people DISSOCIATE. Which includes derealization. I literally can't interact with the CDD community half the time despite having OSDD because I will almost always get triggered to dissociate. Then people act all self assured about posting invalidation in the CDD tags because they don't see endogenic systems as people anyway.

:exhausted:

I agree with this, anon. I really do. I'm so fucking tired of the lack of ability of anyone to find space or resources or what have you. But none of this was included in my criticisms, and wasn't the point I was making. If I want to make that point -- if I have the TIME to make that point, ffs -- then I will, because I was literally just talking about this with a friend today in DMs, about how it's bullshit how much is barred from pro-endo CDD systems.

But also.

Your triggers aren't our problems. I also get triggered by the CDD communities. Awww what a shame, it's called I have a fucking dissociative disorder. It's going to happen, and that's a neutral thing. I understand what you're getting at is that the gatekeeping is what's triggering you, but please understand, you're going to be triggered in CDD spaces.

These communities don't stop and end at Discord. Tumblr's plural community skews far younger than it does on other websites, hell if you use Reddit there's endogenics who are in their 30s and 40s on there.

[Stares in "I made this same exact point already"]

I guess it's like yeah the endogenic community is bad on here, but the traumagenic community can be too.

[Stares in "I made this same exact point already"]

And now...

The moment you've all been waiting for.

THIS BITCH?

(Honestly I'd also say a lot of endogenic harassment might also boil down to a trauma response. Being constantly told you don't exist weighs heavily down on a person's psyche and it's reasonable to lash out. I feel like whenever I interact at the community I hit my limit so quickly. There's a bit of a level of privilege non-endogenic systems have because they aren't the ones who's literal personhood and existence aren't constantly being questioned. Syscourse is a demeaning, awful experience.)

Let's dismantle this one, shall we?

Claim 1: Endogenic systems are harassing people because of trauma responses.

My opinion: Sure, why not? I think a lot of people harass others due to trauma responses. This does not excuse them or make them okay, and I will still continue to speak out against that shit. Being traumatized doesn't make you suddenly get a pass on being an asshole. But you say that it's reasonable to lash out? I don't think it is. I don't think I'm even being reasonable right now, because even though I have sat on this ask for... Lord only knows how many hours at this point, this came in while I was still grading my second period... Even despite that, I am still boiling at the entitlement. Because of your second claim.

Claim 2: Non-endogenic systems are privileged because they are "more recognized."

My opinion: My opinion is, if I ever see you on my blog again, I will be deleting everything I can see from you. Any asks, any comments, anything that seems to indicate it's you, anon, will be immediately deleted.

Let's rephrase this. DID systems are lucky they're traumatized. DID systems are lucky to be visibly struggling. DID systems are lucky because they have a diagnosis in the DSM.

Mind you, that diagnosis has been constantly challenged, and everywhere you look, it's still called a "controversial" diagnosis. Split came out in my lifetime. I grew up learning about Sybil in my psych classes, and I even learned how it was all fake and made up, and how MPD was made up because of Sybil. I had to force myself after weeks of agonizing, with the help of my partner, to try emailing a therapist for the help I so desperately needed, and braced myself entirely to be told that my literal actual life experience, my disorder, did not exist.

UwU Oh but don't worry, I definitely know I'm privileged. Because, you see, I do have a diagnosis! Which... lets me... get the life-saving therapy I need at a cheaper price? Which isn't very different from the endogenic systems I know who have various types of diagnosis for the same reason. Huh.

It's also so bold of you to pop up on my blog and say people don't question the existence of my disorder, when I have been so incredibly vocal about how the existence of my disorder was constantly questioned by pro-endo systems. Not anti-endo systems!!! Pro-endo ones!

Look past the edge of your nose, you sorry excuse for anon hate dressed up in a trench coat, and maybe perceive the forest around you.

[anti-endo-haven]

Why post in plural tags that have always been pro-endo if you want a safe space for anti-endos here? Isn't that just going to cause more endogenic systems to interact?

EDIT: For people that can’t see the repost, I was the one that misread! I post in plural tags to reclaim them mainly. My fault for misunderstanding!

I have never been pro-endo. I do not like endos and pro-endos. I despise what they’ve done to friends and mutuals and what they’ve done to further demonize a disorder I have.

I post in plural tags because we are plural, we are a system.

I don’t know where you think I’ve ever said I was pro-endo or if you’re just trying to mix words, but I’m assuming you’ve gotten something misconstrued.

I’m syscourse neutral which is completely different to me than pro/anti endo. I cannot deal with constant back and forth arguments when they get no where but I know the sides I’ll stand on as I’ve witnessed too much shit to like endogenics/non-traumagenics.

Hopefully this explains a little bit more and gets past any miscommunication errors. :)

I’m taking a tag back for systems, not for endos.

Will I use it all the time? No. But is it there for when I do? Yea.

I can use tags and still be anti-endo. I can be neutral on syscourse for my mental health and to avoid anger. It doesn’t change me being anti-endo.

[manyminded]

alright I’ve had this circling in my head for a sec so here.

@pluralpolls

[circulars-reasoning]

PluralKit

Had a few seconds in a discussion today about PluralKit and accessibility. Ironically enough, due to accessibility issues caused by PK, I had to step away from the conversation, and my thoughts have been buzzing. I wanted to get them out here!

This post may be interacted with by any side of syscourse, to any degree. Please enjoy some discussion on the topic!

(And, fair warning - I'm pretty sick at the moment, so I'll be trying my best with words here!)

TL;DR: I don't view PK to be an accessibility tool, as I frankly do not understand how it fits the definition, and I'm a bit concerned by the amount of people requesting it be considered as one. However, I do acknowledge it as a good supplementary aid for communication, which is very different than an accessibility tool. I also think it’s important to acknowledge the very real criticisms of PluralKit, as well as the benefits it can have for systems. At the end of the day, calling it a communication tool literally harms nobody, and the usage of accessibility tool really isn’t needed.

PluralKit as an Accessibility Tool: Yes or No

I do not understand how it fits the definition of an accessibility tool. Accessibility tools, in my eyes, are assistive devices or aids that make a previously inaccessible place accessible, within context of the situation. For instance, screen readers are an accessibility tool; they allow those with the inability to read a screen the ability to do so - they can now access that space.

PluralKit does not do this. It does not add something to Discord that makes something that was once inaccessible, suddenly accessible.

The conversation that prompted this included numerous arguments for why it was an accessibility tool, but none of these actually showed me something being needed.

PluralKit allows for people to change their usernames and profile pictures.

This is not accessibility - it's comfort. I change my name using the nickname feature, and I find that, like anyone else in the world, I don't need an individualized profile picture for every particular state of being I'm in. Numb is just as happy being a yellow triangle PFP as Debbie is - that's just a picture. It doesn't have to represent us. And even if we did have a stronger emotional attachment to our image... It still wouldn't prevent us from accessing the space.

PluralKit helps people track switches, and if you change your nickname, it changes who said what earlier in the conversation.

This is not accessibility - it's growth, healing, and comfort, rolled into one. Being able to see who said what from a specific system is an absolute bonus, for sure - but even for us, a system who has had to work out their own way of tracking switches (hello, tumblr post sign offs), they aren't a requirement for accessing the space. We don't absolutely need to know who said what at any given time in order to be able to speak in a Discord chat. Yes, being able to read back through and know who said something is a big benefit, and could help a system in their growth. I'm not saying PK is bad - I'm just saying it's not an accessibility tool.

PluralKit allows systems who have large fronts, more frequent co-fronting, or regular switches feel like themselves.

Comfort - not accessibility. You can still talk in that server, even without PK. Also, speaking as a user who is at almost al times co-conscious with the others in my system, with such ease of switching right now that we can blur and blend seemingly at random... the nickname feature can be used at any time. If I want to feel distinctly like myself, I change my nickname to my name. Takes less than a minute to change my name in all the servers I'm out in (Currently around 10 servers).

PluralKit allows system members to talk to each other rapidly.

Again - why is PK necessary for this? When this happens to us, we just have the other person write (Like This - signoff) or they just. Say it, without even bothering to sign off. PK isn't necessary, meaning it's a comfort, not an accessibility tool.

And that's the extent I've seen for why it's an accessibility tool. Sadly, I just can't agree. The terminology I would accept far more is a supplementary aid - it's something that can supplement an already existing space, to make it better, but it doesn't provide accessibility.

Jeeze, Circ, Why Are You Being A Words Lawyer About This?

Primarily because "Accessibility Tool" has a lot of connotations. Let me think of an example...

I work in a middle school with numerous students who have individualized education plans, or IEPs. One accommodation (AKA, something that is absolutely required for the student to access the material) I provide is speech-to-text software. This is considered an accessibility tool. It is inherently part of every device students use. If it is not currently able to be used, I in turn must provide alternative accommodations, so the student is able to access the text.

This differs strongly from supplementary aids. An example of this in an IEP would be something like Manipulatives in math. Do you remember ever playing with things like these?

These are Manipulatives. They're in schools to help students have a visual and tactile way to access the material. These are not an accessibility tool, because the student can still access the material without it - they just can occasionally access the material better if they have these aids.

Now, if I do not have manipulatives on hand one day... that's alright! I try my best, and I find other ways to help the student. It's not perfect, but I can still help the student. I go to the parent and say "Just so you know, So and So could not fulfill this supplementary aid today, as I didn't have the materials, so we did X instead." It's a sad time if the student struggled more, but the fact is, the student doesn't need this aid - they just enjoy it more and learn better with it. It is always preferable to have the aid, but sometimes it just cannot happen for various reasons (lack of resources, lack of time, student refusal, etc).

If, however, I do not have speech-to-text accomodations... I cannot teach that student this material that day. I MUST provide that student an alternative - whether it be an accessible version of the assignment, a scribe, or an alternative location where someone can provide the accommodation. They need this to access the materials. If I go to the parent and say "Just so you know, SO and So could not fulfill this accommodation today, as I didn't have the materials," I could easily be sued where I live for not meeting student needs.

So why am I rules lawyering the term so much? Well. If PluralKit is an accessibility tool, then I should not be able to deny people access to it in servers where it's "needed." It would be like denying someone wheelchair access, denying deaf interpreters at a hearing event, denying my students the ability to use crutches when they've broken their feet.

And I'm worried that's where a lot of the "PK is an accessibility tool" talk is trying to lead towards.

How "PK is an Accessibility Tool" Can Be Harmful

Accessibility tools are tools that are required to be there for people to access a space. So what happens when a server can't or shouldn't add PK?

For instance: I am sure there are systems out there with epilepsy, migraines, or similar "flashing-lights-cause-me-problems" kind of things (forgive my wording, the illness is making this part harder). I am one of those systems, actually, and I had to leave a chat about this topic today due to the nausea caused by me accidentally watching chat when 3 systems sent PK messages at the same time. The flash of the double messages triggered the migraine nausea - it had been a particularly bad day at work, with other triggers for my migraines, so this just happened to be bad luck today. I try to be good about not watching the chat like a hawk, particularly in busy chats, but I forgot this time around.

Now, let's imagine this was a server for epilepsy. Should PK be there? Probably not! But if it is an accessibility tool, then it should be there, or else the space is not accessible. There isn't a conflicting need with things like screen readers and wheelchairs - but there is a conflicting need with PK.

By suggesting it's an accessibility tool, it's laying credence to the idea that PK should be required in spaces, regardless of if it actually needs to be there. This is an argument I’ve actually seen a lot - if anyone recalls that movement awhile back for Discord to add “plural functionality to all servers” for “accessibility.” And there's a lot of problems with this that I can see.

Aforementioned conflicting needs (migraines, epilepsy, etc)

The chance for systems to accidentally out themselves via accidental proxies (hello, muscle memory)

Related to above: this could be incredibly dangerous in spaces where it’s not safe to be visibly plural. For instance, my students often form discord servers to talk about school. If PK was an accessibility tool, the need for it would be there, and a student accidentally proxied, that could lead to bullying, outing them to administration (which could get parents involved), and harassment.

The pressure to fit in is strong, and as someone who has been in a system spaces for a bit of time - I always felt pressured to use PK when I started out. It felt like I was faking if I wasn't presenting every aspect of myself at all times, and trying to differentiate myself from the other alters. I had a constant fear of being fakeclaimed for not being "system-y" enough.

Related to above: Now further in our healing, we don't struggle with this nearly as much, but I also have come to realize how much differentiating ourselves came to harm us so much. By focusing so heavily on who was fronting and when, on who we individually were, our own personal identities -- we often let our collective identity fall to the wayside, and ignored the compromises that needed to happen. Our system got so much healthier when we found a balance of individuality and collectiveness, and I fear PK has a tendency to encourage that differentiation to a harmful degree (not inherently, but socially).

This leads to a major "Cancel-Culture" problem for those who do experience issues with PK and cannot have it present; I've been called ableist for less egregious things than "not having a bot in a server." I have seen people say before that it was ableist to not use PK in system servers, disregarding the potential for conflicting needs. If I ran a completely unrelated-to-systemhood server, and someone asked to add PK, I would feel pressured to do so, even when I know it's going to make things much harder for me. (And actually, this isn't a hypothetical! I did do this in a server I helped moderate.)

And this is where we get to the crux of the argument, I think.

Should PK Be In System Servers?

duh

But seriously, it's a great tool for communication purposes, and it helps a lot of systems! I think that a system server should likely use it, particularly when requested.

But it shouldn't be required!

And by using the term "accessibility tool," it comes with the inherent connotation that it is required for the space to be accessible, when it really is not. It's required for some systems to feel comfortable. That's a big difference!

And I really do think comfort is a major factor here, and why a lot of systems try to argue that it IS an accessibility tool - because "Without it in a server, I won't feel comfortable accessing it!)"

Without my noise cancelling headphones, I don't feel comfortable "accessing" stores. It makes me anxious and nervous and I can sometimes melt down or run away when I don't have them. I recently had to run away from ALDI because I didn't have my headphones.

But I could still walk in. I could still be in that space. I could access the store. I even bought groceries that day. Just not comfortably, and not to the fullest extent.

That's all, Folks!

[switchcase]

Confused/New Diagnosis Syscourse Primer

Endogenic vs. DID/OSDD debates have existed for at least 30 years. Nobody on either side is saying anything new. You are not going to change anybody's mind.

People with DID/OSDD can spread misinformation. They are not more/less right based on diagnosis.

You cannot argue a negative in science ("x doesn't exist" "x can exist because science doesn't say it can't"), you are fighting a losing battle with that one if the other person is even mildly, 5th grade level scientifically literate.

There are, IIRC, 2-3 studies that tackle the concept of endogenics.

Therapists have internet access. They see the same Google search results as you do, the same Twitter or Tiktok or whatever. So yes, Things People Post do influence therapists.

The whole "endogenics never claimed to have DID/never pushed themselves into spaces" bit is false. Endogenics used to call themselves "natural DID/MPD," among other things detailed below.

There are reasons, other than "real vs not real" opinions, that people who have been in the community for many years often are uncomfortable with endogenics: using multiplicity as a grooming tactic (mainly with alter ages), pushing the DID/OSDD community to let them into trauma spaces (including arguing about how DID/OSDD doesn't actually have trauma origins so therefore they can have 'natural DID'), spreading dangerous misinformation and presenting it as applicable to everyone (ie, killing alters you don't like), telling people their trauma was not enough to form DID/OSDD so therefore they're actually endogenic, telling strangers that they are endogenic and their symptoms are actually super normal WITHOUT telling them to also look into medical/mental health conditions to rule those out (back in ye olden days when nobody knew what DID was, making this a big deal), telling people with DID/OSDD they're ableist for considering their personal multiplicity a disorder, taking vent posts about trauma to add on discussions about spirituality/multiverse theory, telling religious/spiritual/cult abuse survivors that their system is actually caused by an external spirit who saw their abuse and wanted to protect them, using trauma-related terminology (eg, system hopping) for spiritual/magical things, cultural appropriation and racism, etc. It is important to mention these are not one-off interactions with a handful of terrible people but was a huge, widespread community issue.

The reason endogenics are uncomfortable with people with DID/OSDD who are "anti-endogenic" is due to harassment, which resulted from people getting fed up about the earlier things but then directing their energy into suicide baiting and intentionally attempting to trigger people (like sending them graphic images or threats). This was also a widespread community issue.

So basically there is a lot of bad blood between the two and we can all just mind our business now, yeah?

[selvesdiscovery]

Pinned Post

This blog is dedicated to helping individual headmates in plural systems live their best, most authentic lives. Feel free to send an ask looking for advice or validation.

This blog is run by an adult osdd1 system who is very pro-endo, however fully educated on both sides of syscourse. Any answers or advice given will be fully unbiased and based in the most true information for your ask that we can determine/find. If you think that your& origin or functioning might be relevant to your answer, please do include that. If not, there's no pressure to disclose anything like that.

Despite what our bio says, hosts are also free to seek advice on their system or on their individual experience as well. Non-hosts are listed as our intended audience due to the fact that they're the most likely to struggle with self discovery and integrating themselves into their collective life, and that's what this blog is geared towards. If you're a system host and are struggling in a way you think we could help with, you are more than welcome to reach out.

Ask Rules

Do:

Ask for advice on

- disagreements

- social struggles

- coming out

- intrasystem struggles

- self definition/identity

- self acceptance

- sharing your& lives

- building yourselves the perfect plural life

- source related struggles

- seek reassurance, resources or advice on adverse plural experiences

- anything else related to the discovery and acceptance of yourselves

(all of the above does include situations that might tie back to trauma. those types of asks are completely okay. keep in mind though that we are NOT a professional.)

Don't:

- ask about diagnoses

- ask me if you're plural

- start syscourse

- be weird towards us or anybody else

- ask about making/elaborating tulpas (we don't know anything about this topic)

Besides the obvious syscourse stance, this blog has no BYF/DNI. Anyone can interact.

edit: personal boundaries and introduction below the cut

About Us

Mod Cyn - Host: 🔪 Alters: ☕🐟🎱🦀💥

@cynicalundead <- main

(We will tag our posts as "Mod Cyn [Emoji]" from this point forward)

• Currently the only mod until further notice.

• We use he/they/it pronouns, and we/us/I/me interchangeably.

• We are mixed origins, and identify with traumagenic, neurogenic, and adaptive as personal labels. We experienced early childhood trauma and dissociate alongside our plurality, so we identify with osdd1 to describe our experiences.

• Please use the terms plural, system, alters, pseudomemories, and you/you guys/y'all for us. Please do NOT use the terms parts, exomemories, or you& for us, when possible.

• We support all (safe and consensual) queer and otherwise good faith identities. This includes kins, IRLs, and mspec monos. These things are safe to talk and ask about on this blog.

[sophieinwonderland]

I sometimes feel like certain people just really want an extremely sanitized version of syscourse where they can debate the validity of endogenic systems with just no endogenic systems present.

I get that impression from the recent confession and similar posts trying to "both sides" the issue, suggesting "pro-endos" need to be interacting more with anti-endos, erasing the fact that that many pro-endos are... you know... endogenic. And we shouldn't be expected to hang out with people who define themselves by being anti-us.

I get this impression from the SN members who speak wistfully of how much more civilized discussions are in their traumagenic-exclusive syscourse channel where everyone could get along, which I don't think even included mixed origin systems.

I get this impression from the bizarre syscourse brackets at the beginning of the year that some people talked about as being able to bridge the gap between pro-endos and anti-endos, only for the participants to be made up entirely of traumagenic systems with no mixed origin systems and only one endogenic system in the bunch who got called out by the brackets blog for allegedly spreading misinformation and was taken off of the brackets for reasons that were never clarified.

While these things all claim to want to bring pro-endos and anti-endos together... in practice, they seem more concerned with uniting anti-endo traumagenics and pro-endo traumagenics.

It feels like there's a certain brand of neutral and unaligned systems whose solution to syscourse is just ignoring the fact that endogenic and mixed origin systems exist, and that we're never going to be able to get along with a group that hates us for our immutable characteristics.

We will not tolerate those who spread intolerance of us. Full stop.

Spaces where endogenic and mixed origin systems exist are never going to look like the the Survivor's Network syscourse channel where syscourse is a cordial chat amongst friends that's free of all the yucky people who are actually fighting for our validity against anti-endos.

Because even if some traumagenic systems who identify as "pro-endo" (even with caveats like "pro-endo sysmed") can find acceptance there, that's not an option for the rest of us. (Including many purely traumagenic systems who are just too different to be accepted in anti-endo spaces.)

And if you think for a moment that this is possible, then you're completely and utterly out of touch with the endogenic and pro-endo community.

I am not saying that you can't be friends with anti-endos either. But for the love of the gods, let go of this bizarre fantasy where endogenic systems will just decide to make nice with a group that is literally defined by their antagonism towards us.

Stop pretending this is at all a "both sides" issue.

[hahahahah-no]

You know, as someone in an Endo system who discovered the whole Syscourse scene just a few months ago (and who wasn't even a part of the plural community before), it's really, really exhausting.

And I'm not even talking about people disagreeing with Endogenic systems existing or being critical of the community, but just the unwillingness to simply *talk* with each other.

DNI's can be genuinely helpful for those who want to cultivate their own community online and who don't want some people to interact with them to keep themselves comfortable. It's just when I see post after post with people throwing vitriol at others and then just shield themselves with a DNI... Or when I see somebody give some genuinely good examples of how some parts of the Endo community act in harmful ways and then just put an "Endo's DNI" there at the end. In part, I get that. I really do. But it also really stifles discussion (not talking about vents here, just to be clear).

I really just want to talk to people who disagree with me and people like me without worrying that I'll get posted somewhere and laughed at behind my back, or that I'll get hate asks and all. I want to be able to talk with different people and learn new things, and maybe let them know about things that they didn't know about before in turn. But wherever we go, there's always a DNI.

"An endo-friendly server that allows syscourse? DNI anti-endos. Oh, another server that allows syscourse? Cool, maybe we'll- DNI Endos."

There are no respectful places for honest debate. It's just echo chambers, where people either don't want to talk to the other side because they *don't* want to even hear their perspective, or are simply too scared of being hurt and/or bullied to be able to.

It's really exhausting.