#all sides of syscourse can interact

[manyminded]

shout out to the systems/plurals/etc. who would not be alive without it. yes this can be painful and it oftentimes is but it’s also important to note that just as often, if not more for some of us, it can be a wonderful - or even life saving - experience.

[voiarc-draws]

*hits them with the plural beam* anyway

(headcanons under cut)

~~~

victim is a monoconscious median system

chosen & second have a psychic link. and that’s pretty plural to me. they can’t read each others thoughts (yet, it would take practice to learn how) but there is emotional bleed & memory bleed. they also share mental disorders

[creative-cartoon]

could you do Orange (ava/m) plurality stimboard...

(Orange as host, Second (awakened Orange) and the av education goober as alters if that matters)

ty :3

Plural!TSC from Animator Vs. Animation stimboard!!

I wasn’t quite sure how to do this so you get a glorified plural flag stimboard

x x x - x x - x x x

[sunnymarigold69]

having a bunch of insys parents is weird cause you’ll be co-con for like .0002 second and then their face will get all soft and they’ll go “you’re a good kid” or “I get what [other insys parent] sees in you” like huh??

[amity-moonrise]

Its been ages before I have had to speak up about someone elses harmful actions since that system hottake blog.

But I am actually done just sitting around doing nothing when anti endos like this person are encouraging bullying towards endogenic systems

This doesn’t make me any less anti endo, nor does it mean that we support endogenic systems, in fact, we personally don’t believe that it’s even possible to be endogenic and that most of them are either:

- misguided by those who prey on minors (like sophie),

- have DID but don’t remember their trauma,

- are confusing their symptoms for DID when they probably have a different disorder,

- are experiencing something that no one is able to give a proper name to so they make it sound like a CDD when it’s clearly not,

- or are just straight up insane (ahem, like sophie)

You do not, under any circumstances, bully people, even if they have hurt you or you really really hate them to the core. “Oh but endos are evil, they’re ableist scums of the earth and they constantly hurt us and shit-” YOU DONT STOOP TO THEIR LEVEL.

Wanna know why they absolutely despise us? This is why

When you give radical anti endos a platform to speak, a platform to target endos who are most likely just trying to exist, you get people bullying them. You get people who are attacking the other community and harassing them. When you enable radical anti endos a platform to speak, you are hurting both communities

Anti endos have been fighting for ages to get basic respect from the other side and to just be left alone and not have people roleplay or romanticize the disorder, but radicals literally undo all the hard work by giving pro endos a reason to bully and harass back and invalidate all of us because of a select few, which is also exactly how we treat them when we are being attacked by people like sophieinwonderland or other radical pro endos

I could probably guarantee you that the majority of the system community just wants this useless fighting to stop and for all the bullying, harassment, and ableism to stop. I can guarantee you that most people on BOTH sides are not fully one or the other, and that we fall closer to the middle and have nuanced stances on certain topics. We are not robots, we have complex opinions, and syscourse is no exception.

If you don’t want the other side to interact with you then block them and set your boundaries. Filter out tags you don’t want to see, block people like this person who you know are toxic and hurt people regardless of what their stances are. You are responsible for how you want to interact and contribute to the community. It is your responsibility to be the better person.

And if you see problems within your own community, SPEAK UP ABOUT IT. When you stay silent knowing that you have seen the problems that exist within the community, you are complicit in the bullying and harassment. You are letting radicals dictate the reputation of your community. This goes for both anti and pro endos. Stop staying silent, otherwise nothing will change.

I know this system community can do better. I have seen the good from both sides. We really should stop fighting and actually respect each other and understand that our experiences are different from one another and it doesn’t automatically make their experiences invalid just because they don’t match yours. Who knows, if we can actually get along we would be a lot more empathetic towards each other and maybe, JUST MAYBE, we could stop the actually ableist fuckers and the bullies who are ruining it for everyone. We could actually work together and take down harmful spaces like r/syscringe and r/fakedisordercringe, these harm BOTH COMMUNITIES and are places that ENABLE BULLYING AND FAKECLAIMING.

Nothing gets done when people stay silent, when people stay divided, and when you ignore the problems in your own community that the opposition has constantly been highlighting on for ages. Learn what makes someone radical in their beliefs, learn the difference between what is actually wrong versus what is just an opinion that conflicts with your own beliefs because those two are NOT the same. Learn to stay away from toxic spaces and warn others of these places, like the K9 Cave server on discord or r/syscringe on reddit. Educate yourself, not just on CDDs and how they actually work but also on endogenic experiences and how they affect people who genuinely believe that they are endogenic. You may not personally believe in them, but if you stay educated on these topics then it benefits both communities and you could actually help someone who may have something misunderstood or is unknowingly spreading misinformation about it. You really can’t expect pro endos and endos to do their research about CDDs but then also not listen to their experiences and their ideas on the complexities of plurality. You don’t have to agree with it, but if you refuse to even listen to them then its pretty hypocritical to ask them to listen to you.

I don’t have to accept their experiences as pure fact or scientifically proven, but I can respect it and be empathetic instead of bullying them and understand that in reality, we don’t know everything. I shouldn’t have to risk “looking like a pro endo” or seem like I am siding with them when I am very much anti endo to get this point across:

That bullying someone for having completely different opinions, views, and experiences is wrong, and you cannot justify it.

I’m not here to say that “oh endos are valid” or “oh endos are invalid” that is not my point. My point is that even if you don’t share the same views, opinions and experiences with them, you have no right to bully them.

There is a fuckton that we don’t know. This world is already against all of us in general. The best we can do is work together and have basic respect for each other. Just, basic respect, you don’t even need to interact with the other side, just respect each others boundaries.

Please reblog and share this, both anti and pro endos. And please don’t go harassing this person, don’t give them a reason to target you. This post is incredibly important for both communities especially since the rise of bullying from BOTH sides has caused extreme turmoil for those who end up getting caught in the crossfire.

[a-minke-whales-tale]

The Zoanthrope "Exodus" and P-shifter discourse

There has been a fair amount of talk lately about a zoanthrope exodus, which is particularly ironic timing given Passover starts next week. I do not think there is actually a zoanthrope exodus, not because zoanthropes are not getting fed up with how we are treated and people deciding to not call themselves therian anymore or post in therian spaces, but because this is not new, this is not sudden, and it is not all at once.

Length: 1834 words TW: sanism

I have written a fair few times now about how the therian community has treated myself and others. I for years did not feel comfortable to call myself therian. I existed in therian spaces but I was an interloper. I stayed in therian spaces because I felt really I had no where else and because some places did tolerate me in time. However there was always a price for being tolerated, that being "the dance" - in which I would have to make clear my delusions, make clear that I was seeing a doctor, and minimise the validity of my own experiences and often reassure -real- therians their experiences were different from mine and real.

I have not met terribly many other zoanthropes through the past decade or so. I have met a few here and there but our interactions were always fleeting. Few would stick around in therian communities because of how we are treated. The endless demands to explain your delusion or censor yourself, people would always come and go. I have met a couple zoanthropes that just would not talk about their experiences so they could hide among therians and have the limited community they were allowed. I have also met zoanthropes that existed in P-shifter communities rather than therian communities because they simply were not allowed to exist in therian communities.

The therian community has long tried to "protect" itself and root out P-shifters to a point of zealotry. To be honest I do not care to reclaim the term P-shifter, but I can understand why many would want to. P-shifter or accusations of being a P-shifter have been used against zoanthropes for as long as I have been in the community. It becomes a demand to kowtow and reality check yourself and deny any of your experiences as real or genuine and that they are delusion. And then from there it would be decided if you were allowed to stay in the community or be removed anyway. Accusations of P-shifter have been used for a long time to downplay or deny the experiences of zoanthropes and remove us from spaces that we are ostensibly supposed to belong to. To very many therians, your experience being from "delusion" makes the experience much less valid, despite that under certain circumstances their own identity could easily be declared delusion.

People say and tell me that P-shifters are dangerous and are a cult and how P-shifters hurt and abuse others. I have to wonder though if that is "inherently all P-shifters" or just a perception because of who and what people talk about. There have been many times in many discourses that the opposing side becomes flanderised into this horrible abusive monster or are considered deeply problematic or inherently harmful - shipping discourse, syscourse, radqueers, MLs vs anarchists, etc. I have no doubt that there are P-shifters that have deeply hurt and damaged other people, but this is something that many I have talked to acknowledge and understand. Some people say that the term never was applicable to delusional people, but then I have heard the same thing about 'therian' from many therians, a statement I know does not represent -all- therians. And I should ask as well, what about those zoanthropes who would not or could not double bookkeep? How many of them may have found themselves in P-shifter communities and associated themselves with that? Of the dozen or so zoanthropes I know, it is two or three.

At least for myself, my relationship with therians has been more abusive and done more damage to me than my interaction with P-shifters. It does really become an abusive relationship where I am reinforced over and over how those people over there are dangerous, how they would hurt and abuse me and how here is the only place that I can be tolerated so long as I know that I am lesser than they are and not a -real- therian. I never interacted with those communities until around a year ago because of what I was told, and those that I have interacted with, do in many ways remind me of my own experiences, and many of them have been far more accepting than therians.

People often say that we should find a different word and that it is really about the word and nothing else. But it isn't; it was never about the word and it was never about the problematic individuals. Whenever the topic of P-shifters come up there is almost always this same question of "why are [CLCZs] accepted in the community but P-shifters are not?" The answer always comes down to that we (CLCZs) acknowledge our experience as delusion, while P-shifters do not or that we do not make claims about "Capital-R reality". If it was truly the problem being that it was the word P-shifter, the response would not be relating to or predicated on our ability to double bookkeep. It would be something like "that word has a lot of baggage, [X] have similar experiences but are not associated with that community".

The core of us being tolerable among therians was -always- the minimisation of our experiences. It has -always- been sanism. What happens to those who cannot double bookkeep? They are labled P-shifter, demonised and expelled. Even if we can double bookkeep we might still be expelled. I have had it happen to me, and it would not surprise me if many other zoanthropes have had similar experiences.

I personally do not wish to reclaim the term P-shifter for myself. For how I have been treated by others I do not feel attachment or desire towards the term and it still gives me a bit of discomfort in the way some other reclaimed slurs do. However, I can understand why some people would want to reclaim the term. For some it might be reclaiming a slur, for others being allowed to exist in both communities at once or allowing others like them to be acceptable in the community, for others it might be that making P-shifter acceptable means that they can express their experiences wholley without the demand for double bookkeeping. If you want to accept the full range of therian experiences, you cannot exclude a group of people simply because they cannot double-bookkeep or cannot realiy check themselves.

There is a particular irony over this whole discussion, in that people supporting the inclusion and destigmatisation of the term P-shifter and by and large CLCZs, Endels, and holotheres - groups either directly claiming their identity is associated with delusion or who others often associate with it. Many of the people opposing it almost always include how P-shifters harm delusional people and claim it an effort to protect others. Delusional people are not incapable to protect ourselves, we are not incapable to reason or make decisions for ourselves, and we are not incapable of seeing how others around us or what they think of us, nor are we incapable to see the harm others do to us under the promise of help, protection, and good intentions. So often in these discussions mad people are spoken over, silenced, or dismissed by "sane" people. The level of sanism that pervades every aspect of therianthropy is honestly extremely disheartening, and ironic for a group of "wierd animal people" that plenty of outside society thinks are lunatics.

In the past couple years there have been points when CLCZs were becoming more acceptable and more tolerable, there were even points a couple years ago I did feel finally I could call myself therian and that I could be genuinely part of the community. Even when I started posting on tumblr again there was really very little available and that was only around a year ago. Since then I have met and interacted with more zoanthropes than I had in the 8 years before. I have also been able to get to know some zoanthropes like Sonar/Dune and Ike particularly well. The feeling of not being alone is wonderful. But with our increased visibility and acceptance came ironically with more harassment and more negative posts about us. So many of the various discourses on therian tumblr wind up surrounding us in some way. I am pretty insulated from things in my bubble of mostly other zoanthropes, so I only really see something if a mutual reblogs it, and still it is so regular I read comments how we are dangerous or should not be included for various reasons. If you go to that therian confessions blog you will see so many comments about those like me. All these discourses do is again remind me of how much we are not wanted and not accepted by the broader community. Several months ago I took off my theta-delta necklace for the last time, and it has been hanging on my shelf since. I had gotten two, one for myself and one for my companion. They still wear theirs all the time but for me I simply do not feel represented by the symbol or welcome by it (even if I did replace the cord that was irritating my neck). My companion tries to reassure me that I do belong, and I am welcome in therian spaces and that my experiences with transformation -are- therian experiences or even more than normal therians. Others will try to reassure me that I am therian because I fall under their definition (and some even demanding I do), it is however to me not reassuring. Definitions and labels are much more about community than strict definition as there are plenty of labels people could claim me under. Still I have attachment to the therian community, and I want to see it grow to be what its ideals claim it is. It is honestly a lot of why I write these long emotional pieces, that others like me might not feel so alone, and that hopefully I can convince others and help the therian community to become what it promises it is. Although I feel continuously rejected by the therian community and as an outsider and interloper I do really hope someday we can -be- therians and not treated differently to others.

There is not an exodus, as none of this is new - nothing in how we are treated is new - and zoanthropes getting fed up and leaving communities is not new - the only thing that is new is for once we are visible enough you can actually see it. ~Kala

[hammersys]

✦　˚ AVPD resources

All of the links below are either resources, research, and/or tips/help for people with AVPD.

Found any outdated links, or any links that include misinformation? Please let me know!

✦ Resources/Miscellaneous

Avoidant Personality Disorder - Etiology, Epidemiology, treatment/management, and more!

Comorbid Disorders

AvPD shoutout (Positivity)

System AvPD positivity

��� About AvPD

What is AvPD

An introduction to AvPD and Diagnostic criteria

An AvPD checklist

AvPD: Traits and triggers

AvPD; Causes, statistics, signs, symptoms & side effects

✦ Recovery Resources

Challenging negative thoughts

8 simple tips to help overcome loneliness

10 tips on how to work through feelings of social isolation

Recovering from isolation

Recovering from isolation and making friends

Therapy information for AvPD

✦ AvPD safe blogs/Informational Blogs

@avpdcommunity

@avpdculture

@avpdvoidspace

@avpdpossum

@an-actual-real-live-eevee

@avoidantcoyote (Inactive, but does provide information/resources)

@cluster-c-pds-culture-is 

Is this list missing something? Please let me know in the comments, or send an ask!

BEFORE YOU COMMENT:

Everybody can use my resources, but keep discourse/syscourse out of our comments. Our anti-endo tag exists for personal interaction. Asks are anti-endo, etc, but as I've said, resources are for all.

[shattered-system]

The “Redefinition” of Systempunk

Updated version!

We're not typically an essay kind of blog, but there's something l've been turning over in my mind since l've seen it.

I have the post pulled up now actually, and about 11 hours ago @/the-alarm-system "recoined" (stole) the term systempunk in a long post, as well as designed a flag with its own meaning and I want to sort through some of it.

I also have a few personal pet peeves about their flag design, given that it's color palette clashes and the flag is way too busy. I don't expect it to spread far given that it violates several rules of good design (saying this as someone who has been to school for graphic design.)

I will not post it here, because I don't care to spread it any more than this post already may.

Their flag slightly predates my own version of the systempunk flag, but given that theirs was created for a separate concept with a stolen name, I maintain that we were the first.

We begin with their definition of systempunk.

“A term or Subculture surrounding the liberation of plurals and the critique of psychiatry."

First issue lies here. Both the destigmitization of dissociative disorders and critique of the psych field are extremely important discussions to have!

But they are separate discussions. There is absolutely overlap, but combining the two here is kind of shooting yourself in the foot, because then the conversation in that tag will be disorganized.

Have a systempunk movement AND an anti-psych or psych-critical movement. That way people can easily find the relevant discussions and terms.

This is followed up with a bit about the harm the psychiatric field has caused (not delving into that as that's not what this blog is about) and then circle back onto "the future is plural."

This is not one of the instances where OP means it in the "the future is destigmitization" sense, as they are pro endo. (On a side note, even ignoring the endo use of the phrase-- if I need to read about a slogan to understand the meaning of the slogan, it's a bad slogan. The point of a slogan is to communicate a concept quickly.)

The flag has black and brown stripes akin to the progress flag to represent systems of color, which is the only part of the design we have no critique for, but are describing anyway just as a bit of information.

The purple stripe stands for:

“Endo solidarity... endogenic systems are continuously harmed by antis who remain uncritical of psychiatry."

Once again, we are mixing two expansive concepts into one term.

The term anti-endo doesn't imply a position one way or the other on the psychiatry discussion.

Some anti-endos swear by the DSM5, others don't. Anti-endo is a term that means anti-endo/ endo-critical. That is all it means.

There is a difference between holding the DSM as the complete authority on mental illness and saying that a trauma disorder is caused by trauma.

I'm not sure if OP knows that and is choosing to cast anti-endos in a bad light, or legitimately confused. However, OP is a syscourse blog who is on a lot of blocklists and is spammy in the tags, and has likely been blocked by anyone who isn't also out looking to pick immature fights. (This is a system who made a post in all caps calling for an endo raid on #systempunk.)

Continuing directly from the last quote:

“[Antis] are against the liberation of plurals and deny a plural future in order to push singlethood onto others."

It's possible OP is referring to final fusion, which the anti-endo community is not a monolith on either. Most people we've interacted with are supporters of functional multiplicity (including ourselves.)

Most likely however, they mean that anti-endos "push singlethood" by telling endogenics that they can't have a trauma disorder without trauma.

And I could go into a whole tirade about that, but dozens of systems have done it before and I doubt any pro-endos have gotten this far. I am writing this for the anti-endo and on-the-fence audiences.

Visit @antimisinfo's helpful masterpost for a list of legitimate sources.

OP seems to believe that by “forcing” this singlethood, we are contributing directly to the oppression of systems. Hypocritically, OP themselves are contributing directly to the oppression of trauma victims.

Endogenics are not part of the "diverse experiences of plurality” (we are diverse, but united in origin) given that they don't exist. And if they did, they would have such a fundamentally different experience than trauma-formed systems that both groups would need separate language and tags to have space to themselves.

And endos already have a well-established punk tag for themselves. It seems they won't be happy until they chase trauma victims out of every space they create for themselves and steal every term. They've already stolen even the medical terminology used for CDDs.

The yellow stripe of the flag is meant to represent those with actual CDDs. Once again, psych stuff is brought up. However, I do agree with OP that those who do not want final fusion should not be pushed into it.

The pink and white stripes of the flag are entirely dedicated to anti-psych points. I think this would do wonderfully on it's own flag. But bringing the large range of discussion the anti-psych movement encompasses and the large range of discussion the CDD community has into the same tags is going to make it monumentally difficult to find the conversations you're wanting to have, and weaken both communities considerably.

There is a line of barbed wire across the flag that is partially for the same anti-psych movement as well as in favor of protecting and defending endogenic "identities." The ampersand stands for plurality.

There are fangs on the flag as well, encouraging systems to be loud and proud about their existence. And I agree that systems should make themselves known. However, endogenic systems don't exist, and their promotion will continue to drag us down.

I have read testimonies about traumagenic (real) systems being fakeclaimed or denied treatment by healthcare experts who, through exposure to endos, came to the conclusion CDDs are fake entirely.

Real systems seeking treatment and help after a lifetime of horrific abuse are being denied care.

Not to mention the setback of social acceptance by endos.

“Force plural liberation down the throats of others. Force the future to be plural."

[wondercourse]

y'know what a big pet peeve of mine is?

the phrase "this isn't for you" appended to "pro-/endos dni" on posts about trauma. usually trauma recovery. not necessarily about CDDs (though i'll get into why that's ALSO fucked up in a bit), but just about trauma in general.

i am a big believer in curating your space. i curate mine; i don't like how aggressive syscourse tends to be, so i don't engage in it in the way people may expect me to with my username being "wondercourse" lol. i don't really care what "side" they're on, what matters to me is how they treat others. it is okay for you to set boundaries surrounding your interactions with others, including those you don't want to interact with. i'm not saying you shouldn't do what you need to do to feel comfortable in your space.

but why not leave it at "dni" (this is also about the "fuck off" tag but that's a whole different conversation)? why append "this isn't for you"?

that implies that whatever kind words you said in that post, whatever encouragement you wanted to give, whatever "positive" thing you were trying to do, isn't deserved by the people you don't like.

even if someone who identifies as endogenic is a trauma survivor, "this post isn't for you".

even if they're person with a CDD who happens to "believe in" and/or support people who identify as endogenic, "this post isn't for you".

if you are "wrong" in someone's eyes, "this post isn't for you".

honestly, to me, it minimizes the words. they're not actually for all trauma survivors. they're not for all people with CDDs. they're for the ones that you find palatable. and that's...uncomfortable, to put it as kindly as i can.

and it's so unnecessary. it is not equivalent to just saying "dni". you are NOT the arbiter of what people deserve or don't, especially when it comes to trauma support/solidarity.

and maybe this is just me misinterpreting the phrase! but it just makes me skin crawl. like idk if there's really a way to justify it that would make me go "oh, i get it" because i don't (but i'm open to discussing it). why not treat each other as human beings deserving of respect and healing?

anyway, this has been a long enough post. i'm tired. i don't know if this even bothers anyone else. but it bugs the shit out of me.

oh, i was going to keep this in the tags, but this is something i want people to see: i mostly see this with people who identify with being anti-endo. but if you identify as pro-/endo and you do this "this isn't for you" thing on general positivity/recovery posts, then this is also about you. and if you don't, then it's not lol.

[calico-constellation]

Hi! Feel no pressure to answer, but I have a few questions (regarding DID)

So I'm aware of what an endo system is, but I'm a bit confused on why it would be considered valid since the condition is directly caused by trauma, which is the thing that endos lack. Could you please explain your perspective on it? And maybe your perspective before you became pro-endo?

Hey! I've been sitting on this ask for a few days now. I do want to start out by thanking you for reaching out to me and asking about my perspective. Please note that you are not obligated to agree with me, or to change your mind just from my answer to your questions. I like having you as a mutual, and I will continue to do so regardless of your syscourse stance.

I'm going to grab a term that some of my mutuals in the DID community have used, and say I'm really more pro syscourse conversation than I am pro endo- pro endo is just the easiest way to communicate my basic stances.

I think the most important thing to understand here is that a lot of the time, the "are endos real" debate suffers from both sides fundamentally misunderstanding what the other's stance actually is. While there is a small subsection of the endo community claiming that DID isn't trauma based- which I vehemently disagree with, DID is absolutely trauma based, and that's backed by all of the research- that's not the majority.

Most endogenic systems are not claiming to have DID. They are claiming to experience themselves as more than one. I am by no means an expert on this, but I know that it is a very western-centric view to assume that everyone subscribes to being one singular self. If you want to learn more about non-western views on the self and on plurality, I would recommend looking at @system-of-a-feather's blog. They make great posts on the subject!

And- here's a real kicker- not everyone with a CDD- CDD standing for complex dissociative disorders and including the likes of DID, OSDD, P-DID, UDD, etc- actually identifies as plural. Not everyone with even DID identifies as plural. So if someone with a CDD can identify as one, what's stopping someone who doesn't have a CDD from identifying as more than one? This post puts it pretty well, so I'm just going to link it here! And if you're looking for scientific backing on endo systems? Dr Colin Ross, one of the very well known DID researchers, believes in non-traumagenic self states.

Basically, I'm choosing to believe people when they talk about their subjective personal experiences.

Now you did also ask about my anti-endo days and I will also gladly talk about those. I will admit, I was the worst kind of anti-endo. I was the type of person who would throw even other CDD systems under the bus as fakers because I wanted to seem more legitimate. Everyone who didn't present the "right" way was a faker. And endos, my goodness. They were the worst fakers of them all.

It was an extremely reactive position to take. I was suffering from my plurality, therefore everyone who wasn't had to be faking. They were making a mockery out of me! At least, that's how I perceived it.

And then I started interacting with endos, and pro endos. I realized that they were also real people, not just an abstract concept to make fun of to make myself look more legitimate. And I started reading blogs that had the rawest, realest content about CDDs that I'd come across thus far... and they were pro endo. And the arguments as to why were really good.

Somewhere along the way, I realized that the things that were leading me to being anti endo were the same things that made me into a transmed when in the 2010s. I believed that people had to meet a minimum quota of suffering to be real. In a way, I was defining people by it. And ultimately, if they are lying? It costs me nothing to believe them. I'd rather believe some liars than not believe people who are telling the truth. I've had enough experience with people not believing me. It sucks. I didn't want to keep doing that to others.

That's about the end of this yap session! Seriously, thanks again for asking, I really enjoyed writing this post. I hope I answered in a way that makes sense to you!

[manyminded]

playing madlibs is so funny cause they’ll say “gimme a plural noun” and I have to hold in an instinctual “me!”

[voiarc-draws]

I hope it gets better for you. I hope it hurts.

[sysmedsaresexist]

When you said you're "extremely critical/borderline against shared spaces", what did you mean by that? /genq I'd love to hear a more detailed explanation on what your views on shared or separate spaces are

I'm going to just ramble about my experience and thoughts, and I would love for others to chime in. It's going under a cut.

I helped to run a semi large anti endo server focused on recovery, with opt-in syscourse channels for general venting, as many of the members were also active syscoursers, and that shit is stressful, especially at the time, for those who remember

Eventually, I came to agree that pro endo CDD systems deserved access to these spaces, and we amended our rules, and the syscourse channels remained open for respectful debate and genuine support for the stress

This actually worked, but only for one reason

Our rules dictated the server's core beliefs on CDDs. This fact was non debatable, and it was the only reason the server experienced general peace.

CDDs were trauma based.

That's it.

Personal beliefs shouldn't prevent anyone from getting support, EVER

And yet, there were still those who were excluded

I've talked before about why I feel this exclusion is justified.

The safety and care of anti endo CDD systems trumped the right to access of those who were non-disordered (not touching on the debate of whether you can be a non-disordered DID system here, my thoughts on that are very clear in other posts). To this day, I still understand why antis are antis. The misinformation and real-world threats to CDD research are terrifying.

And this was a recovery focused server before it was a syscourse server.

We had to draw the line somewhere for the safety of our members' mental health. You may not understand, but for most members of the server, this was a massive relief. The pro endo CDD systems were marked as "safe" systems because we shared the same base belief, and topics that expanded from there felt safer-- like people bringing their spirituality into it felt safer because it was pre-agreed that trauma played a significant role.

It was in this space and at this time that a good chunk of the mixed origin community came to this conclusion about themselves-- this period where topics and exploration felt so much safer without having to have the syscourse talk beforehand to see if you even wanted to interact with that person

You already knew you weren't going to have to fight about your CDD

But this means that no space can be syscourse free, you either need to state your stance or there will be arguments

The base fact of whether CDDs are trauma based is SO TOUCHY that if two systems exist in a space, this is going to come up eventually-- a gaming server (already happened to me), or whatever random server topic exists, if two systems recognize each other, that's it

And God forbid the mods are uneducated, we've all seen servers completely burned to the ground because this happened and they were torn to shreds publicly for picking a side just to stop their members from bickering

You may have only heard of it once it crashed, but it started with two systems, and the server being forced to take a stance, even if that stance is "no syscourse"

Even "no syscourse" is met with complaints because how DO you know if it's safe?

I don't think it's possible to have a truly endogenic safe CDD space that doesn't still exclude some members of the endogenic community, or vice versa, a space for endogenic systems that can truly cater to the needs and intricacies of CDD systems

Maybe it's more that I'm very pessimistic about it, rather than against, but I've got thoughts and a line that I refuse to budge on

To some, this still makes me anti endo

But to people that are traumatized, knowing exactly what you're going into, what to expect, and knowing that space is 100% safe is important, and I have always tried to prioritize that

It's why I've never joined another system server. As a syscourser, and as someone with opinions, this is going to come up eventually. I am not a safe person to most of the community, previously because I was anti endo, and now because I'm pro endo.

But unless I know what I'm going into and that I'm going to be able to keep my mouth shut, I'm just not going to go, because I'm so goddamn tired of syscourse and I need that goddamn safe space

But the safe space can't exist unless it has a stance

But it can't have a stance without excluding someone and being unsafe to some members of the community

Round and round until I just give up on shared spaces altogether

[sunnymarigold69]

you’ve gotta fag it up in these trying times (aka playing w how I draw myself)

[sophieinwonderland]

Hi sophie, I'm the host very small traumagenic(could be otherwise) group(we don't ..I was hoping to give a little more perspective into why we consider ourselves "endo-nuetral". Also if this is not the correct term, maybe you can suggest another one?

We do not really care for system discourse, we find it very difficult to interact with people when they are so stuck on stances, orgins, validity etc. just so they can argue. It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" type of situation that's very exhausting for us, we don't have the spoons to constantly go back and forth, or try to prove of convince others to just shut up and take others point of views into consideration. We am are not anti endo at all, plurality comes in all sorts of forms and that's basic knowledge, but we use it to signal to others "we are not gonna argue about endos with you, fuck off". Ultimately we love seeing other people's opinions, and their thoughts, and their stances on certian things. But like, yk, it's just so irritating being pulled at the limbs by both sides for having opinions.

So I'm searching for a better term to just if you could possibly assist with that?

You're probably not going to like my opinion, but I think the only valid stance is pro-endo.

Like, you believe endogenic systems exist... I'm sure you agree that endogenic systems have a right to exist and not face hate for being endogenic... that's pro-endo.

If the only reason you're identifying as neutral is to avoid syscourse, that's probably going to have the opposite effect. It puts you in the middle where endogenic systems won't feel safe with you, and probably is going to encourage anti-endos to interact and argue. The reason being that they see someone on the fence, whose mind they can potentially change.

So... why not just be pro-endo? Why not embrace it?

I think the better way to signal "we are not gonna argue about endos with you, fuck off" is to be proudly pro-end, make it clear that you won't participate in syscourse, and you won't change your mind because you know that plurality comes in all forms.

Sure, you may still get hate. But it's only going to be coming from one side, and probably even less from that side because they know they won't be able to bully you into submission.

I just don't see the value in taking any sort of middle ground. It's not going to keep you out of discourse. It's not going to protect you from anti-endos. And it's actually likely to pull you more into discourse than if you had actually firmly picked a side.

[ellipse-society]

There are anti-endos who aren't ok with endogenics interacting but are ok with pro-endos interacting. If the only thing on your dni is endo systems. If you don't put pro-endos dni in your tags. There will be pro-endos who assume it's ok to interact because you didn't tell them not to. We don't even identify as a pro-endo and we still have pro-endo dni tags blocked so we don't forget to check and interact by mistake when it would be respectful not to.

Also syscourse is a discourse tag. Posting in syscourse auto assumes that those who disagree with you can interact to have discussions about the discourse. If you don't want people who disagree with you to interact there are tags like tw syscourse that would be better to use if warning people you are going to be discussing a syscourse topic.

(Also side note don't assume everyone reads all tags on a post before interacting with it as many won't)