#man nonman

[chronicallyqueercoining2]

I received a request to remake the "man non-man" flag, so here is my remake!

Og term/coiner

(I actively disagree with the linked blog's beliefs in regards to their stance on "transid" terms/identities. I oppose such things being associated with MOGAI, and I am actively against the creation of such terms. I am linking to give credit to the term created, and I am not saying I hate this blog, I am just against that stance, specifically!!! Don't start discourse about that on this post. This is simply me remaking a flag!!!)

"Man Non-man (boy nonboy, male nonmale or nonman man): someone who is man and nonman.

This includes multigender people whose genders include boy and non-boy/not boy (simultaneously or fluid), a centrigender between male and non-male genders, men who feel represented by or reclaim the term "nonmen"/non-men (and vice-versa), enboys/xoys, bxys, those with complex genders or contradictory identities, etc."

Requested by: anon

Term coiner: beyond-mogai-pride-flags

Flag: me/chronicallyqueercoining

[beyond-mogai-pride-flags]

Man NonMan Pride Flag

Man Non-man (boy nonboy, male nonmale or nonman man): someone who is man and nonman.

This includes multigender people whose genders include boy and non-boy/not boy (simultaneously or fluid), a centrigender between male and non-male genders, men who feel represented by or reclaim the term "nonmen"/non-men (and vice-versa), enboys/xoys, bxys, those with complex genders or contradictory identities, etc.

[pens-personal]

Really hate that the queer community's response to the creation of a gender trinary (girl, boy, and nonbinary, which is still not all-encompassing) was to... reinvent the binary. We just started grouping all genders into "masc/male-aligned" and "fem/female-aligned" and it's so fucking stupid. Even with the occasional allowance of "neutral/unaligned" it still maintains the binary as the standard. And then they don't let you use certain labels if you don't have the "right" gender alignment. The fuck.

[genderstarbucks]

Nonman is a term for those who reclaim being called a "non man". A term for anybody who considers their gender identity to be a "non man".

Nonwoman is a term for those who reclaim being called a "non woman". A term for anybody who considers their gender identity to be a "non woman".

These terms are only to be used by those who willingly call themselves a non man or a non woman, do not use these terms for people who do not wish to be called a non man or a non woman (especially multigendered people)

[ID: a 5 striped flag that consists of the colors #320A00, #8B2000, #FFFFFF, #8B2000 and #320A00. End ID.]

[ID: a 5 striped flag that consists of the colors #003921, #017340, #FFFFFF, #017340 and #003921. End ID.]

[bugflies00]

something thats always struck me is how people will talk about gender being a spectrum and not just a gender trinary except they seem to conceptualise this spectrum as free and valid as one wants until it hits the Hard, Defined line of "Man". this is how we end up with words like "nonmen" while ive never heard of anyone say the word "nonwomen" in my life. its like to these people you're either On the Gender Spectrum or you are A Man. if you are a man who uses he/they they may accept you in the non binary umbrella but you will thus no longer be A Man. its actually insane

[cottonspotten]

just saw somebody say "dni demiboy lesbians" and huh you guys really dont know anything about gender or sexuality at all. do you. just utterly incapable of being normal about bigender people or masc sapphics for even one single second

[dukeoftears]

NO BC I HAD A FEW DIFFERENT THINGS THAT SPECIFICALLY INSPIRED THAT POST AND THIS WAS ONE OF THEM 😭 like really i don’t see it… idk i just don’t think he could be cis i think he’s normal 🩷

I forgot to answer this but OML YESSSSSS!!!! I swear I hate that this hc isn't more widely popular, my heart SINKS every time I see anything that implies cis rouxls... especially as a transmasc person like I LOOK AT HIM AND THE GAY(trans)DAR IMMEDIATELY GOES OFF

[spinnydraws]

I’m going to be posting the HELL out of Lemon so be ready for that …

[dead-lavender-society]

it's all "women and non-men" until there is a woman or non-man who looks like a man. suddenly it's not about gender identity anymore

[inrainorshine]

lesbians deserve to be mean. as a treat

[moonshinedyke]

I am literally fucking BEGGING you all to also acknowledge the racism behind the terms "non-man" and "non-woman" and how they're used in queer definitions.

Black and Indigenous queer people have literally been talking about this since the definition was COINED but there's literally NO acknowledgement of this when pointing out why "non-men loving non-men" and "non-women loving non-women" are shitty fucking definitions to force on a whole community.

"Nonman" and "nonwoman" are terms that have been historically used to describe the degendering of black people in society. And words can obviously be used to mean different things- we don't have to stop using these terms altogether. But forcing these terms on a whole community of queer people is really fucking antiblack.

Not to mention that it blatantly degenders a lot of 2S lesbians and gays as well. It basically tells them that they can't be 2S and as a lesbian or gay at the same time, because then they would be "contradictory." I seriously hope I don't have to explain how racist it is to exclude a large portion of Two-Spirit people from your queer label because they don't fit into your neat little white gender binary.

Like these definitions aren't bad to use for yourself personally- but stop forcing them on all lesbians/gays. And if you're advocating for why these shouldn't be used as the most prominent definition, PLEASE acknowledge the racism aspect of it.

[beyond-mogai-pride-flags]

Cisn't Lesbian Pride Flag

A flag for all lesbians who are not cis.

Cisn't: an umbrella term for sex/gender modalities that are not cis.

Lesbian: being gay for women; queer attraction to women; non-man loving non-men (NMLNM); exclusively wlw (lilaen)/suptilic sapphic; or homoaffectional woman.

Based on cisn't flag by @pupyzu.

[spacelazarwolf]

oh my god metaphor of crowley as a trans man going from being seen as angelic (woman) to being seen as evil (man) for a perceived fall from grace (transitioning) for questioning the system (gender) and rejecting heaven (womanhood) despite not really fitting in in hell either (manhood) and aziraphale loving him but also wanting him to become an angel again (go back to womanhood or at least be a “nonman”) and rejecting him when he refuses (excluding trans men from trans spaces for refusing to maintain proximity to womanhood) so he just ends up alone and angsty in his car with nowhere to go.

[our-lesboy-experience]

hiii!!! so uh, this is sorta about 'contradicting' (?) identities in general, but i only recently found out about, like, lesboys and gaygirls and all of that, but what is it exactly? like how does it work? or is that weird to ask? i'm trying figuring myself out but a lot of stuff i've seen doesn't exactly... explain it (or explain it well), and while i guess i do get why, it's just kinda hard to understand it myself for my own identity

also, probably a question you get a lot in a hating way, but isn't the definition of lesbian nonman loving nonman? so then how does lesboy work? like is it for people with more complicated gender identites, like fluctuating genders and bigender? just genuinly confused, my apologies...

sorry for not getting to this sooner- been busier lately and didn't have the time to collect everything I needed to respond!

About what it exactly means to be a lesboy or a gaygirl ('turigirl' is the more common term, 'turi' meaning turian, another word for gay attraction to men. so I'll be referring to it as that from now on), there isn't exactly....one right way to call yourself such. it really depends on the person, but I can give you a basic definition and a list of common reasons someone may call themselves such

im gonna put a read more because this ended up being super long so sorry

lesboy is a term for any lesbian who may have a connection to manhood and/or masculinity. turigirl is just the opposite of that, a gay person (mlm/nblm) who may have a connection to womanhood and/or femininity. common reasons I've seen are:

being multigender or genderfluid

being cusper/in between trans and cis gnc (in between trans man and cis gnc woman, in between trans woman and cis gnc man)

being a system who uses lesboy/turigirl as a collective identity or when identities blur together

a person who uses man/boy or woman/girl as a means of masculine or feminine gender expression but not actually identifying as such

being a trans man/ftm or a trans woman/mtf who still identifies as lesbian or gay for personal reasons

those are far from all the reasons, everyone has their own unique experiences, but the gist is these people may have some sort of connection to manhood/womanhood while still having a queer attraction. personally, I'm multigender, genderfluid, and transmasc. lesboy I find is a nice label to express being both my bigender self and being a lesbian, as it forces people to acknowledge both without separating the two. it's cute and makes me feel validated!

as for "nonman attracted to nonmen" definition of lesbian......it has its issues. it's received criticism all around from all sorts of lesbians in the community. this definition is very new - it emerged only in the recent years, and someone on twitter had date searched it and found it didn't even really exist before 2019. and having that as the one and only official definition that every lesbian has to abide by, when lesbian is a centuries old word with so much history behind it, is a bit ignorant. people who are multiple genders or ftm or bi being lesbian is not even remotely new, going back decades upon decades, and it never stopped existing too. It's a bit weird to have a whole new definition that doesn't include all sorts of lesbians that have been here for so long and just tell them they're not welcomed anymore, right?

that's not even close to the only issue there is with it. it's been disliked for centering lack of attraction to men, or defining lesbian in relation to men, rather than who we're actually attracted to. putting nonbinary people in a new binary of either being "men or nonmen," which not all feel comfortable putting themselves into. especially when considering a definition of gay being "nonwomen attracted to nonwomen," man-woman bigender people are simultaneously excluded from being both lesbian or gay. It inherently overlaps with mspec identity ("attraction to nonmen, which is more than one gender" and "any orientation that involves attraction to more than one gender" kinda obviously overlap), despite people insisting that a lesbian can never be mspec. people have found multiple loopholes in it, (which I can elaborate on if someone wants me to, for the sake of trying to make this as short as possible), and lastly, and term "nonman" (and nonwoman) were found to have existed before to describe the degendering of black people in society. this isn't the only source I've seen for this, but sadly I can't exactly find it (or find it without going back to that hellsite called twitter and I'm not doing that to myself)

oh and as the link points out, defining lesbian by these words also ends up excluding a lot of two-spirit people from ever identifying as lesbian, myself included. which is also really racist. I don't know how you're gonna end up excluding a whole cultural gender that's common for indigenous americans to describe themselves with and try to prove it somehow isn't racist, to be honest

and lastly, some surveys/polls have shown that the definition isn't the most widely accepted by lesbians as people make it out to be. there's this simple poll that someone posted asking how lesbians felt about the definition that received 1,529 responses, and 61.1% of voters said they disliked it. comments gave lots of reasons I've stated already. there was another survey put out that received 211 responses that for any lesbian who had a genderqueer or unique relationship with gender, and one of the questions asking opinions on the "nonmen loving nonmen" as a definition. the average among the group was slightly negative (average 2.838), and reported that the group who tended to feel the most positively about it didn't consider themselves to be trans, with the other positive leaning group considered themselves to be somewhat cis. the group that felt the most negatively sometimes considered themselves to be trans. and of the multigender participants, the average opinion was 2.255 (more negative than the overall average). When concluding, the original poster stated, "When divided by gender, the only groups to feel positive about this definition were "not trans" and "somewhat cis" participants. Multigender participants felt especially negative about this definition"

all of this shows that this definition isn't nearly the best for everyone who considers themselves a lesbian. I know it's been a way to include nonbinary people who are lesbian in it's definition, but I think it really misunderstands why nonbinary people are included in lesbianism in the first place, and just assumes that all nonbinary people aren't men and fails to recognize that multigender/genderfluid people are nonbinary too. and it's not like lesbian has to only have on definition- it can definitely have multiple and depend on each person's experience with it. if someone personally defines them being lesbian around being a nonman attracted to nonmen, and takes pride in not being attracted to men, that's totally fine. what becomes a problem is forcing all lesbians to define themselves like this and make it the standard, or else they're "not real lesbians." it is ahistorical and ignorant to require this or else you'll strip them of their lesbian status, and is really at the end of the day, lesbophobic. especially as a requirement that primarily exists in online spaces. im sure the lesbian who is not at all connected to these circles doesn't particularly care about strict requirements or whether someone is a "nonman" or not. in conclusion, it is not the best nor most accepted definition of lesbian, and deciding which lesbians are valid or not based solely on that definition is pretty exclusionary and ends up policing a lot of lesbians, myself included

[zestyxwesley]

not all nonbinary people go by they/them or are strictly gender neutral

nonbinary people can go by he/him she/her neopronouns xenopronouns object pronouns

literally any pronouns they want

because nonbinary (to alot) isnt a gender

nonbinary folks can have any pronouns they want any name they want dress how they want gender affirm how they want

they can do anything they want

they can do what they want gives them gender euphoria and makes them happy

im nonbinary and my primary pronouns are he/him because it makes me HAPPY and EUPHORIC

nonbinary is not strictly gender neutral

it can be ANYTHING

nonbinary folks can also be gay or lesbian

not every single one of us is bi pan omni or poly(sexual)

the amount of times ive seen people say nonbinary folks cannot be lesbians because they arent women is BAFFLING

someone said that i cannot be gay because im not a man and am nonbinary (they were a fujoshi though so not very surprised)

gay means man or nonwoman strictly attracted to only men and or nonwomen

lesbian means a womam or nonman strictly attracted to women and or nonwomen

lesbian and gay are not strictly cis or trans terms

on behalf of all my nonbinary siblings brothers and sisters

leave

us

be

[the-owl-house-takes]

i rlly dislike terms like "nonwoman/nonman" or "woman-alligned/man-alligned" i feel like its just a disguised way to force nonbinary people to fit into binary boxes

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