#did Jason actually expect or want bruce to kill the joker

[oifaaa]

Random tangent: I don’t think Jason would internationally hurt people around Bruce to get at Bruce. I feel like at most they’d be collateral damage. Idk I’m relying heavily on my flawed memory of utrh for this tho. His interactions with Dick there was too minimal for me to get a proper read on him.

I feel like this is one of those up to interpretation type deals where I firmly believe he would considering how he reacted to seeing Bludhaven get destroyed - he was way more concerned with using it as an opportunity to hurt Bruce then showing one ounce of care if Dick was alive or not - as well as the interaction he had earlier with oynx - I'm gonna go on my own wee tangent opps so heres the thing I think people misunderstand about Jason he a ends justify the means type guy and people get confused bc of that line he says to Bruce later when he's says smth like "I'm not talking about two face or riddler just joker" but the thing is he was talking about Bruce only having to kill the Joker not himself - Jason has already shown multiple times by that point that he is willing to kill a lot of people if he thinks that they will justify his ends - that includes killing henchmen and lower criminals and its not like he's finding out everything about everyone who gets in his way to see if they deserve to die no Jason is more violent then a lot of people seem to be willing to admit and he's willing to own up to that violence bc to him it's justified and to try and get back to the actual point (sorry anon about that) Jason's means justify the ends thing also means he doesn't mind hurting dick or oynx unnecessarily to antagonise Bruce

[snakeredbirdbatkatana]

I will be your Blade Point Me

Loyalty was a trait Janet Drake respected above all others.

It can give you power, fame, money to have someone's loyalty was to have their life.

Tim has always given his all. His people whatever they need they have. May it be his mind, his skills, or even his weapons.

If Dick Grayson demanded the shirt off his back he would remain naked till the end of his days.

Very few times has anyone actually used it the first to test it was Jason.

"Hey Jay.. What's up you never call?"

Tim's phone is always ringing from Wayne Enterprises to his assorted friends he can't remember it being silent. Yet the shock when HighWay to Hell started blaring almost sent him into cardiac arrest.

"Need a favor. Think you could meet me at that safe house you keep pretending not to break into?"

"Yah no problem also it's not breaking in when you leave the window unlocked. Give me ten."

~

Jason doesn't do favors. He would rather die again than ever ask for shit.

When it comes to Tim though he's not an idiot. During his return to Gotham he researched, knew everything about him from his favorite color to when he fucking peed.

Part of his research specifically including who trained the third Robin. Nevermind that watching the kid fight for more than ten minutes gives it away.

Lady Shiva, Ra's just to name a few. He moves almost exactly the same as Cass. Hides in the shadows better than Damian. The whole creepy debacle with Mr. Old as Fuck just furthered Jason hypothesis.

Baby Bird, Bruce's prized protege isn't none lethal.

"I need you to kill someone."

~

Tim in the back of his mind expected it.

Jason for all he is exactly like Bruce doesn't respond the same. To him protection is blood soaked, a knife to the throat is a greeting. Kindess was shrouded and wasn't offered without losing a part of yourself.

"Joker I'm assuming?"

~

He expected a bit of a fight maybe a lecture at least for him to pretend, not whatever it is Replacement is doing.

"He hasn't broken out of Arkham in months haven't heard shit and I hear your in the same business as me nowadays. What you say about helping a brother out?"

~

He wonders if Jason is aware of how his voice cracked. The pleading that was heard the unspoken because I can't. Tim couldn't imagine looking Jason in the eye and saying no. Watching your son bend and demanding he break.

"Hate to burst your bubble, but I already did, I know you think the worst of me but I wasn't gonna let your murderer keep kicking his feet."

He tosses the drive he's been sitting on almost three months before heading back to the window.

"I know we got our shit Jay but your my brother. This is something you needed to be able to sleep at night. You shouldn't feel like you have to beg. I honestly thought you had known and didn't want to acknowledge it."

~

Jason can't breathe as he shuts his computer. Thirty hours of torture his baby brother broke the Joker in ways that turned his stomach.

He climbs into bed his eyes shutting sleeping without a nightmare for the first time in years.

He can't ever repay Tim nothing will ever be enough but he is gonna do everything to try.

He wonders if Ra's might need the same treatment?

[casscainmainly]

I think the recent Cass and Jason discussion is very interesting bc like, Jason or even steph in her first appearance take these actions of righteous, murderous (or near murderous) justice bc of the fact that not only have they've been abused, but they're also able to recognise that fact, and feel that despite everything, they didn't deserve to suffer like that (Jason with his murder, Steph with her childhood abuse)

Whereas Cass struggles for most of her series to recognise that she was abused and struggles to properly resent her abuser on the grounds that she didn't deserve it. She resents David for being a killer and making her love him, for making her a killer, but rarely for the actual abuse that came with her training. She eventually recognises it right before the end of pre-52 in batgirl 2008, but not after a long time, and she still tries to save David at the very end after contemplating letting him die.

she does grows to resent Bruce after some time, and confronts him, showing that she's slowly gaining higher expectations for how she should be treated after developing relationships outside the batfamily (coincidentally with Steph, someone who can relate over having a shitty dad, along with her love interests like Kon and Tai)- though Bruce, despite his multitudes of bad parenting moments never truly abuses cass like david did, so there's nuance, and after her fight with bruce, she still has trouble fully reckoning with her abuse (still calls david shooting her 'a game' in front of tim- she knows its wrong but still doesn't act upset about the fact it happened to her).

She kind of sees all the training she went through as a necessary evil in order to have the skills to be a hero- which is somewhat true, but I think it also contributes to her being unable to see herself, even partially, as a victim for large portions of her narrative.

She can understand abuse as something that molds you into a killer, she can't understand being abused and then choosing to be a killer bc of the righteous fury you have at what happened. In Cass' mind her abuse is synonymous with killing. That's the worst thing Cain ever did to her and the reason she ran away. She can't understand someone like Jason choosing it as a way to cope/deal with abuse.

I don't think this is necessarily a ground breaking thought but I think abuse is an interesting lense to look at both Jason and Cass' stories- pre52, Jason's story is about continuing a cycle of abuse. Criminals hurt him, he hurts criminals, and anyone who gets in his way of hurting the criminals, bc even tho he pursues justice, he also pursues retribution, which is hard to do justly. Between that and the whole zombie/living ghost thing, it's downright gothic. Whereas Cass' story is about breaking out of a cycle of abuse- nobody dies bc she let one person die and will never let it happen again. It's just an interesting way to view their differences I think. Good Cass and Jason posts recently!

I LOVE THIS!! I absolutely think abuse informs the way Jay and Cass see the world (and Steph - Steph, in many ways, is the median point between Jason and Cass).

It's the fundamental question that drives Jason and Cass apart. For Cass, her question is: how can I be the victim if I'm the villain? And for Jason, the question is more: how can I be the villain if I'm the victim?

I love this line: "Cass struggles for most of her series to recognise that she was abused and struggles to properly resent her abuser on the grounds that she didn't deserve it." This is doubly complicated by the genuine love David Cain had for her - that panel of them watching the stars kills me every time. This is another key difference between Jason and Cass' abuse (taking Jason's abuse to be his death) - Jason had no love for the Joker, but Cass did love David Cain.

It's why it's so easy for Jason to want to kill the Joker, and so hard for Cass to even be angry at her father. And your point here - "In Cass' mind her abuse is synonymous with killing" - is absolutely on point, because Jason's conception of abuse is the helplessness of being murdered. They are both acting in ways to prevent what abuse means in their minds: as Batgirl, Cass will never have to kill again, and as Red Hood, Jason will never have to be helpless in the face of murderers again.

Any rebuke of their moral codes feels like a denial of the abuse they suffered. It's why Cass can't allow others to kill, and why Jason can't accept Bruce's reasoning for not killing the Joker. It's why these versions of them could never get along. Argh there's been such good Cass and Jason commentary recently, they drive me insane!!!

[gffa]

If the batfamily were in the gffa, which ones of them do you think would have been jedis? How quickly do you think they would have joined the nascent rebellion?

Absolutely NONE of them would have been Jedi, I say with all fondness towards the Batfam, but they are emotional hot messes, every single one of them, and to be a Jedi you literally have to have your emotional shit together, that's straight up how the Force works. You cannot act out of anger or fear without slinking towards the dark side, the Force will throw all that right back in your face, and I don't think there's a single Batfam member that doesn't consistently act out of a place of anger. Bruce - My guy can't even keep it together without a psychic energy field in his brain that resonates with his emotional well-being, he would fall to the dark side inside a month. I love him, but he already thinks he has things under control in his brain that he very much does not, he is the definition of being created by fear of loss and the anger that results from it. Dick - My Blorbo may be the definition of hope and light in the DC universe, the most trusted hero right after Superman, but he absolutely has anger issues that he just kind of ignores. Psychics in the DC universe have tried to invade his mind and come out like, "Jesus fuck why is that guy's mind so terrifying!?" because, while Dick chooses kindness and love, he was also forged in anger at the injustices in the world. Jason - Sweet babygirl doesn't even know what he wants, I tend to see Jason as often times deeply contradictory because I'm not sure he knows how he feels about things, does he want to be part of his family or does he want to walk away from them, he wants their love, but he can't tolerate their love, he thinks everyone expects the worst from him and is angry ahead of time, because he's so deeply insecure about his place in the world and in his family, and the injustices of his life are ones that still haunt him, the Joker killing him and still getting to run around would drive him into anger, fear, and despair just as much as anyone. Tim - My guy is ready to tell anyone and everyone to fuck the fuck off at the drop of a hat, that he's often times the one trying to pull everyone back together, but he also is still haunted by the death of his parents, he's still unsure of his relationship with Bruce at times, when things get back and he loses a little too much in his life, he starts pushing people away, he pushed Dick and Steph away while Bruce was dead, he obsessed over bringing Kon back as a way to cope, rather than actually letting go of his hurts, that guy seems fairly even keel sometimes, but, no, he's a hot mess who would have the Force throwing all that back in his face, too. Damian - Baby bat is so insecure in a lot of ways, because he doesn't always know how to relate to his father, he doesn't know how to be a complement to Bruce the way the other Robins did, they're both brooders, they're both the kind who wear their anger on their sleeves, and have a core fear of loss that would have the dark side hissing in their ears. Barbara - In some ways, Babs is more emotionally stable than the others, but in other ways, she is JUST as unhinged as they are, her fury at the Joker is still lingering all around her heart, she still explodes in anger when something pisses her off, she's still a little afraid of commitment because she's scared to open herself up, she still has to deal with her spinal implant not being perfect, Babs probably has a stronger sense of what her problems are, but it's not like she does anything about them half the time. Cassandra - I think she still feels too much guilt about her past, even if none of it was her fault, but that she can't let go of that pain, and it's not just "bad" anger/fear that draws you to the dark side, it's also "good" anger/fear that lures you there, too. And Cass deals with a lot of that and, while I think she'd probably have the best chance of any of them at making it as a Jedi, she does still have a lot of issues that the Force would be throwing back in her face.

Stephanie - I'd give her the second best chance, she at least sometimes recognizes her fears and says, yeah, I'm afraid, I'm just not going to let it stop me. Steph has as much anger and need to punch the world as any of them do, but I think she might have a chance at changing up her thought patterns enough to make it. Duke - Hmm, I'm not sure I've read enough with Duke yet to tell what his underlying issues are and how much he's dealt with them. He seems fairly stable and willing to back off when he needs to, but in general, if you're a Bat, you've probably got some real anger to work on. Kate - Everything I've read of Kate is definitely "wants to punch things in the face" or "feels torn up about her relationships with people" and that she's not really interested in not being those things. Alfred - It depends on how you view him, I guess. If you see him as someone who has made peace with the lives his family has chosen and willing to understand that they are who they are, then I could see Alfred as a Jedi. But if you lean into the idea of a British Stiff Upper Lip where he just doesn't talk about the anguish he goes through seeing his family get hurt night after night, knowing he can't stop them, then no he would be a terrible Jedi. In short: THEY WOULD ALL SUCK AS JEDI, but they would definitely have started their own Rebel cell even before Bail and Mon and Leia started connecting the various individual groups together!

[gece-misin-nesin]

Just thinking about how Jason Todd trusts both too much and too little. How this is his downfall and how the narrative punishes him for both.

As a kid, he trusts Catherine. He trusts Willis to help their family. Willis is thrown into jail and Catherine can't function and Jason has to tend to her to keep her alive. He trusts them too much and he becomes an orphan and is homeless.

He trusts Batman to do what is right for him and he sends him to Ma Gunn's.

He trusts Bruce and Bruce hides his father's nurder from him.

He trusts Batman's methods to work and they don't. Women are found dead in dumpsters and the perpetrator gets away and the person who stops him is one of his victims. Gloria dies and Felipe Garzonas is triumphant. He trusts Bruce to believe him about Felipe and Bruce accuses him of murder.

He trusts Sheila because she's his mom and she wants the best for him right? Sure, she left him but she had a good reason to do so. And then she betrays him. She leads him to his murderer like a lamb to slaughter.

He trusts Bruce, Batman, to save him.

He doesn't.

He trusts and trusts and keeps putting his trust in people and they all fail him one by one. His willingness to trust is met with contempt by the narrative and he is punished for it over and over again.

So when he comes back and sees Joker,out of prison, killing even more people and more vioelnt than ever, he looks at all this and says "Fine. I won't trust anyone ever again."

Fine. He's no one's son. He believes in himself, trusts himself and his skills and that's enough. He never fully opens up to Talia, covers up his reluctance to kill Bruce with fake bravado.

After all this, how can he just trust Bruce again? Trust the man who told him he was his son and that he loved him without a thought like he did before? Of course he doesn't.

So he demands proof. He tells Bruce what to do if he actually loves him. He doesn't trust anyone again, he can't trust anyone again so he asks for proof. For validation. Even in Hush, he questions Bruce's supposed love.

And yet, it is this very distrust that causes Bruce to think of him as unnatural. In Hush, Bruce says that the real Jason would have never questioned Bruce's love for him and that he would be assured in Bruce's belief in him. Because of this Bruce says that it can not possibly Jason. Because Jason trusted Bruce above all else.

Perhaps it is this distrust Jason has that causes Bruce to clock him as a threat. To never listen to him. To, in the end, kill him. Because Jason wasn't like this. Jason trusted Bruce so how can this be Jason?

Even so, Jason may says he doesn't trust anyone, he may even think that that's true. But inside of him, there's a small part of him that fundementally trusted Bruce to not kill him. To let Joker die. Yet, this trust was in vain too. Because in the end Bruce slits Jasons's thoat, killing him. And Jason's expression is that of pure, unadulterated shock. He's well and truly surprised because he never expected Bruce to kill him. Because he trusted Bruce to not kill him.

And once again, he is punished for it.

How can Jason assume that Bruce doesn't love him? How can he not trust Bruce's word. Ignore the fact that Joker is running free, that there is another Robin, that another Robin died after him, how DARE he not trust Bruce. How can he possibly question Bruce's "love" for him, huh? So Jason MUST be in the wrong.

On the other hand, how could Jason not possibly expect that Bruce would obviously save Joker? He was a fool, he was selfish to expect Bruce to choose him first. Surely he must have anticipated Bruce saving Joker? He MUST be wrong for how could someone be this selfish?

Because it doesn't matter what Jason does, not really. It doesn't matter if he trusts too much or too little, if he is too forgiving or too spiteful, if he's too calculating or too "reckless".

Because no matter what Jason does, he can never seem to do the right thing.

[betterthanbatman1]

This is so. Fucking. Stupid.

Before I dive in let me just say: This writing is so pathetic simply because this is how humans act?? Like how fragile does Bruce’s ego have to be that he’s going to start a fist fight with his son. It’s like in the damn high school movies where the bully pushes a girl and the other guy punches the bully in the face. People don’t just go around punching people!! They get frustrated and angry but they don’t just fucking punch someone who they disagree with!? (Majority of the time)

Now for the actual analysis: I actually had high expectations for this, I really thought that writers have learnt that no we actually don’t love seeing Bruce beating the shit out of Jason/his kids. “hEs a ViGaLaNtE and Jason’s a cRiMiNaL” fuck off that’s not an excuse.

Honestly Jason shouldn’t even try to convince Bruce anymore, it’s always the same shit. “They’re bad people, they deserve to die”

“You don’t get to decide that” *punches his son in the face*

How many times have I had to read this?? Every fucking comic that includes Jason and Bruce ends up in a fist fight. I’m fucking sick of it.

The writing was genuinely so stupid

“If you think one more death is fine if it stops more death- then shouldn’t I kill you?!”

There’s so much here that just doesn’t make sense and that’s excluding the fact that Bruce is threatening to kill his son.

Do these contemporary writers not understand that Jason doesn’t kill everyone who may kill others. He’s not a “Mass murderer”. He kills the dirtbags of Gotham. He kills the worst of the worst. He kills the r*pists, the abusers, and anyone who brings harm to women, children and the vulnerable. He doesn’t go storming into a restaurant and shooting up the place??? That’s what a mass murderer would do.

Now with that in mind, the logic would be No Bruce you shouldn’t kill Red Hood because he doesn’t just kill people. You wouldn’t be reducing the deaths in Gotham because without Jason killing the scum who terrorise the vulnerable, then there will be more deaths. Killing Jason if anything would increase crime. In UTRH, when Red Hood first appears, Batman himself said “crime is down”. That shows that what Jason does is in fact effective, which is why he does what he does. If Jason was just a killer killing other killers, Jason’s whole reason his own morals would not be consistent or accurate!! If that was the case then yes YES Bruce you should theoretically kill Red Hood. If if if god forbid Jason was one of the nasty scum of the earth that he tries to wipe out, then yes by his morals he indeed deserved to die.

These writers are so clouded with having this raw masculine rage between the two characters; being allowed to kill someone or not, that they blindly and stupidly forget that both of these characters are human and therefore have complex morals and values.

Jason fundamentally believes he is doing good for Gotham- and the statistics prove that!! Bruce knows that what Jason does is needed. He knows that Jason’s methods help Gotham. Jason is a consequentialist and both Jason and Bruce should know that. Likewise, Bruce is a deontologist, he believes the actions are wrong and immoral but he knows that Gotham is better off. He just doesn’t agree with the methods. Jason said himself “I’m doing what you won’t” Bruce knows Jason isn’t a dumb vengeful maniac terrorizing Gotham. So why the fuck did the writers bring these characters so low that Bruce would even suggest that Jason should be killed along with the other criminals.

Lastly, if the answer was yes, then Bruce why the fuck are you asking to kill your son? Like you’d actually do it you little bitch. Kill the joker first and then ask about your son.

Really shitty writing, it’s so frustrating. Like, I was actually excited to see what this new Jason comic was going to give me. But now…More fights between him and his Dad. Yippeee this is really what the readers want. Smh

Call me naive but I just thought maybe Jason and the bats would be able to connect without beating the shit out of each other.

[fractualized]

Time for a surprise The Man Who Stopped Laughing post! Here I was all mad that Jason disappeared in TMWSL #11, and then Rosenberg basically decided Gotham War: Red Hood #2 is a TMWSL side story with a lot I was not expecting!

I still hate that there's no effort at a legible timeline but all the surprises in this issue are helping me move past it. (OK I can't lie I'm always going to hate it at least lowkey.)

More thoughts:

So basically the Gotham War stuff is all happening before/during TMWSL #11 meaning the two Jokers were just hanging around Gotham for the two months Bruce was asleep I KNOW I SAID I'D STOP I'LL STOP. Jason strayed into Gotham War at first partly because of his search for Joker, asking the men Selina has recruited for clues about his location, but then he got more involved, enough that GW Red Hood #2 starts with Joker trying to find out where Jason is.

What an interesting turn!

The note does get to Jason, via a dead body (laid to rest by Scarecrow, not Joker).

Ohhh this is a twist. Last month in TMWSL, Ravager gave Manhunter a list of locations from Jason, places to look for Joker, and now we know they were provided by Joker himself?! Because he wants to make sure Jason finds him? And is probably plain insulted that someone who was pursuing him so single-mindedly suddenly stopped? hahaha

Jason says he'll meet up with Ravager in a couple days, but he misses his appointment because, as you may know, Zur-influenced Bruce decides to Clockwork Orange him so he'll feel debilitating fear whenever his adrenaline ratchets up. But Ravager isn't the only one who notices Jason's absence.

Joker did say back in the hospital in TMWSL that he might have plans for Jason, but I took that more as a taunt. I didn't know he actually was depending on Jason being around. (Though given the time jump, that could be a recently created plan.) Also, "Batman can't have him! I TOOK CUSTODY IN THE DIVORCE."

And look at Joker all ready to go with his hat! And the umbrella. The umbrella detail kills me.

It's also just really funny to me that like, sometimes Catwoman in Gotham War acts parental toward Jason. Here, Joker is intent on finding him. In the following pages, Harvey hears what happened to Jason and says Jason is "more one of us than he knows. And he's had a rough life because of that." And then Scarecrow comes upon Jason during a Missing Scene that takes place during Catwoman #58 when Jason tries to save a little girl from a fire...

Just when I'm laughing that Jason is everybody's blorbo, this happens.

MOMMY. Batman is Jason's Daddy, and Joker is Jason's Mommy. Oh my god. Rosenberg, you magnificent glowing sunrise.

Joker chases Scarecrow away like a disobedient cat with his squirtgun, and then turns back to Jason.

I think Grundy's pee could probably still ward Scarecrow off. Also is Joker mad Jason didn't tell his parents they have a granddaughter? :(

Joker again insisting Jason is important for his plans. Joker saying he's going to fix Jason, his "sweet boy." Is Joker of all people going to undo what Bruce did? That would be pretty hilarious, something to hang over Bruce's head later.

But whatever it is, it's not going to happen now, of course. Joker leaves Jason under the beam so the scene can play out as it does in Catwoman #58, in which Jason did not mention Scarecrow or Joker. I'm not sure if that's just because he still wants to take care of his own business or that he's not sure they were real.

I'm assuming all this means Jason will in fact appear in the TMWSL finale, though suddenly afraid of everything, which will be kind of weird for people only reading that story. Then again, maybe Bruce will end up fixing Jason himself in the last GW issue on Halloween, with how weird and inconsistent the GW writing has been.

Regardless, this particular issue was an unexpected delight, and it's boosted my assumption that the end of TMWSL #11 is a fakeout and this Joker is very much the real one. Too much would hit different in a bad way if he wasn't…

[op-sys-chaos]

Fic Tag Game!

@'ed by my fabulous mutual, @brucewaynehater101

Rules:

Make a list of five (or so) of your WIPs for your followers to choose from

Post a snippet from one of your fics that you've worked on in the past week

Your followers get to send an ask with one of your WIPs!

You must then write a paragraph or so in that file. If the filename is one you can't share from (for example, an event or gift fic), write a paragraph on it anyway and then another that you can share from something else

I do recommend adjusting the writing requirement depending on the size of your following. The point is to make some progress, so if you're not expecting a lot of asks, maybe make your goal bigger, and the inverse is true for large followings. Do you.

That's it! You can invite others to join in or just post.

No pressure tagging @batfambrainrotbeloved and @corkinavoid. If you see this and want to join, feel free to!

(for me, since I don't have a large following, I'm going to do this as chapters! If I get an ask, I'll write a chapter)

Fics and Snippets:

1. The Pit Made Me Do It (And I'm So Sorry): If Jason wanted his mind back, if he wanted to feel any positive emotion ever again, he had to kill his new adoptive brother [Tim Drake].

2. In Another Life: As he made contact with the [reincarnation amulet], Danny [Fenton] closed his eyes, and baby Dick Grayson opened his eyes in a hospital moments later.

3. Twins, or What It Takes to be Resurrected: Danny hadn’t seen his twin [Damian] since he was 7. He didn’t expect to see him again as a ghost.

4: A Message from the Dead: Looking for a Ghost: “Bruce received a video from someone named Danny two days ago. Someone with black hair and blue eyes. Someone who was the long lost twin of his other son, Damian. The video was apparently set to auto-send after three days. But we’ve actually been looking for Danny for a month now, ever since his bio-mom told us about his existence. Bruce is his bio-dad.”

5. Fragmented Universe: the Hope of a Wraith: As he finished the last word, the candles flared, and one bright flash of light later, Tim looked up and saw the grin of a clown, a crowbar swinging, and then stars as said crowbar collided with his head.

Just survive this, Tim, he thought to himself. You did the important part. You got Jason out of here. Now survive this without letting on that it’s you and not him. You can cry out in pain later.

And survive he did. After what felt like an eternity, the Joker set his bomb and left.

I have other fics as well, so you can also name one of those and I'll probably write for it, but these are the ones I'm guaranteeing I'll write more of!

[dannyphantom-justiceleauge]

I kinda wanna see Jason & several others get a bit of a reality check.I've seen comments that Bruce trains kids as 'child soldiers' &??? The only child soldiers are Damien & Steph?? And they didn't become them because of Batman??

From what I recall, Dick, Jason, & Tim all insisted on vigilanteism. Like, Bats TRIED to get them to just stay home where it was safe, but they refused!

Like, what do people expect Bats to have done? Lock them in a dungeon & never let them out?

It's about a 50/50 that would've even worked & on the 50% chance that they did get out, they would've immediately started crime fighting again!

Or, should Bruce have just left them to their own devices, like "not my problem?" They would've either died trying to be heroes on their own & without guidence or grown up to hate the Bat even more for his apethy towards their problems.

Like, whether Jason, or anyone else, likes it or not, Bruce training them was a best case scenario.

All Batman did was try to heard them in the least dangerous direction that he could by giving them the tools to not die a horrible death.

Obviously, it didn't always work (i.e. Jason), but what does Jason expect Bruce to have done in his situation? What would've been the better alternative?

Honestly, I think the problem is that his anger is too big to pin onto just one person, but at the same time, he doesn't want to admit that he got himself into the situation that got him killed. Jason decided to chase after his birth mother without Bruce's aid. Jason went to Ethiopia. Yes, it happened because the Joker believed that there was some sort of connection between Todd & Batman, but how could Batman control that?

Like, I'm not saying that Jay doesn't have a legitimate right to be furiously angry at Bruce. I just think that he should focus on the things that the overgrown furry could actually control & did not handle correctly.

Like, the fact that he was hurt about Tim becoming Robin is understandable, but he didn't really have all the facts to understand the context surrounding Tim becoming Robin. Like the fact that Bruce was not functioning well without a Robin or that Tim refused to just stop when he wastold to. There was more to the situation than what Jay was aware of.

At the same time, his arguments about Bruce not avenging him or burying him with the Wayne name. I can understand that & actually very much agree with him.

Batsy should've killed the Joker or, at least, walked away while Dick did it if he wasn't strong enough to do it himself.

But, he didn't. And I get not wanting your kid to have to walk around with that kind of guilt hanging over his head, but reviving the effing Joker went WAY too far.

At the same time, Jason also should've just killed the Joker the moment he got the chance to. Deciding to use the sack of shit to punish Bats, was a dumbass idea. He should've shot his ass & then double, triple, & quadruple tapped, just to make sure.

Then, if he wasn't to be a dramatic asshole, put the Joker's head on a pike in the most visited part of Gotham with a sign with some sort of literary quote. Something to the tune of "Hey ho, the Wicked Witch is dead" or something with that sort of message.

As for the rest of the Joker's body? I'd suggest going the route of John Haigh. Just to be safe...

Gruesome, I know, but you know what? Whatever it takes to clean out the garbagio.

I know what you mean. I think the fandom and people outside the family give brice greif about the child soldier thing more than the kids themselves do. As far as ive seen dick, jason, tim, damian, and even steph own that robin is something they chose. It wasnt sething batman necessarily made them, its something they needed to do. Batman gets a lot of critism, like wise the league has argued about having sidekicks and teams like the titans and yj because theyre children. More often than not i see conflict about the adults trying to take the hero persona away, than about being given the cape in the first place.

But it can be complicated. I have heard the kids regret being vigilantes and regret what they've been made into by the job. So dick will never regret saving lives but he does regret his inability to settle down, the trained to a fault paranoia, the physical scars and mental wounds. The blame of that doesnt fall on batman or bruce. But on some level all kids feel like their parents are supposed to protect them and there's a point where you realize they can't. This is even more true when your a vigilante and exposed to untold danger. Bruce is a man and he isnt perfect so he can't protect his kids from everything. That hurts him more than it hurts his kid. But its still difficult to get hurt and be disappointed that yoir dad, that your hero wasn't there to save you.

Which brings me to jason. I recognize where you're coming from with jasons anger being irrational and all over the place. But what you gotta understand is that

1. He went through a rediculous amount of trauma. Like the time line of events is: bruce accused him of murdering a guy who commited suicide, jason got mad and found evidence of his birth mother, so he ran away to Ethiopia, he and bruce met up their almost coincidentally because bruce was tracking the joker and that communicate bruce didn't care that jason ran away, jason gets beaten with a crowbar and his mother also gets hurt because the joker is a bastard. The joker sets up a bomb and jason struggles to get he and his mom out despite his wounds. The bomb goes off and jason dies right as batman arrives. Then 6 months later jason wakes up and has to literally claw his way out of his own grave. Afterwhich he is catatonic qnd living on the streets until talia finds him

2. He was being manipulated. Talia found jason and trained him with the league and put him in the lazerus pit so he could recover higher brain function. She gave him everything he needed to train and get vengeance and framed it as a favor to her beloved. But she didn't tell the whole truth and didnt have all the information. Her actions here weren't altruistic. Its heavily implied she was sending jason as her loyal soldier to get rid of tim to clear the way for Damian.

3. The lazerus pit is essentially a drug that amplifies emotions. You could think of it as jason being on steroids. While his actions and emotions are his own they were amped up and irrational. So a lot of his irrational behavior and half thought out plans and stupity can be tied back to him having this 'drug' in his system. Emotions take the wheel and make people stupid without drugs amplifying things

But as i said his actions and the root of his feelings are still his own. So as to the why jason is so angry... well its not just that he was replaced or that he died. It that his death seemingly meant nothing. Jason died and seemingly nothing in gotham changed. He didn't see bruce greive. He didnt know that bruce almost killed the joker twice or that dick temporarily succeeded. He didnt know tim wasnt chosen but decided for himself to be robin. What jason aw was that within months of him dying there was another kid in his cape running around gotham and making quips like jason never existed. He saw the joker, his murderer, still on the steets still torturering and killing people. He saw bruce wayne with a new adopted kid. He saw his tenure, his life, the job that he died for reduced to a memorial in the bat cave with a plaque saying "a good soldier". Not a good son. No one but bruce and alfred were at his funeral.

So jason wasnt mad that tim replaced him. He wasnt mad that he died trying to save his mother. He was made that it seemingly effected nothing. That his death meant nothing to his family and it meant nothing to gotham.

If he wasnt mad at tim than why did he almost murder him? To send a message and to teach a lesson. He wanted tim to understand that robin is dangerous and that Bruce's protection was an empty promise. Jason could have killed tim in titans tower, but he didnt. Because tim dying wasnt the goal.

Why go through a convoluted plot to make batman do it? Well, initially it was jason being irrational. He got it into his head that bruce needed to prove that he loved him, to prove that hed protect him by defeating the monster. Jason wanted Bruce to choose being his dad over his no kill rule. And bruce chose the rule.

So that seemingly said, bruce doesnt love him, possibly never loved him. And this is further exhasperated by bruce sucking at communication. Bruce didn't just chose not to kill the joker when given the ultimatum, he threw a batarang at jason. Bruces will said jason was his biggest mistake. Bruce meant it in a 'i fucked up' way but jason took it as further 'adopting and you was a mistake'. Its shit and with the magic equivalent of .drugs further clouding things. Jason having tantrums and always shotting on bruce and the fam is understandable even if its not fair.

Why not kill the joker himself? Well part of that is fear. Jason has tried a few times to kill the joker and between the fucker being somewhat immortal for convoluted reason, trauma making jason freeze up, and outside interference it just hasnt taken.

As for bruce himself not killing the joker or bruce reviving the joker after dick killed him... well that comes back to the rule itself and bruces motivation for never killing. When bruce was younger he wanted to kill the guy who killed his parents. And alfred explained that taking a life is permanent and puts a weight on your soul. Its something you cant take back and something you have to live with forever. Showing people mercy, giving people a second chance is always the kinder option. Bruce made his rule initially because hes a kind person and he didn't want to carry the weight of murder. Likewise he revived the joker after dick killed him because he doesnt want dick to live with that weight, to live with that regret. Later on the rule took a more sinister tone because batman has seen who he becomes when starts killing. He also knows that if he starts killing hed never stop. Its a weird moral absolute but he knows if he could excuse killing the joker he could excuse killing anyone. And eventually anyone would include people who can change and innocents.

Its a little dumb of a moral absolute but its part if Bruce's character. I think its important to recognize the strength that it takes to show mercy to someone a shitty and undeserving as the joker. That kinda why theyre locked into being nemesis. The joker is ar his core nihilistic. He creates suffering because life is hopeless and nothing matters so may as well laugh at the pain. Batman is someone whos felt a lot of pain and is angry at the world that hurts people, but he is someone who gave himself hope and he is someone who sees the good in people even when they dont recognize the good in themselves. He is merciful and that is an act of kindness.

I do think the joker is beyond redemption at this point. It's the trolly problem at the end of the day: is the jokers recovery worth the lives of everyone hes killed tortured, drugged, and maimed? No. If the joker were to get suddenly better and regret his actions, it wouldnt bring anyone back and very few people would forgive him. Hed never be able yo reenter society or have a normal life. Hes never been a character who deserved mercy, but mercy isnt something you give because it's deserved. Personally i'd be more merciful to the jokers victims and put the fucker down.

But thats not my call. It isn't even really batmans call. At the end of the day batman is just a man in a suit. He isnt god and he isnt judge, jury, or executioner. To kill is a choice and batman chooses not to.

A better question is why the jokers life and death is considered batmans responsibility? And why is murder what jason needs for bruce to prove he loves him? I think thats where jason needs the wake up call. Murder isnt a normal response to having your kid murdered, even if im sure all parents going through that think about it. So why does jason need bruce to kill him so bad?

To feel safe. Jason can never feel safe so long as the joker is around and a dad is supposed to keep you safe. Bruce didnt.

Murder and mercy is where their breakdown of communication is. Bruce choses to be merciful to the villains he's fighting. Jason choses to kill the monsters so the victims can feel safe again.

- Hestia

[cer-rata]

I've heard you're writing a fic about Bao Pham! I don't know you and I don't know anything else about the fic yet, but I would like to. Please tell me about Bao Pham.

(Love Bao! Chapter one is actually already posted, but he doesn't appear until the upcoming chapter. A lil background: As a feature of this AU, Jason has broken away from Bruce completely, killed the joker and set himself up as the king of Crime Alley's underworld. Bao thought that was sick as hell and joined up to be one of his lieutenants.)

Bao handed the kid a controller--one of the worse ones because he worried that Lurch Jr. might accidentally crush anything he was given. Like he did the thermos…and the soccer ball and the rubik's cube. The kid grabbed it slowly, and Bao noticed that the veins on his hands…sort of looked like roots. That probably wasn’t normal.

“Uh, alright, big guy, you’re holding it right, so I figure you’ve used a controller before?”

The kid looked down at him, sad brown eyes framed by a pair of confused eyebrows. “...I guess.” He said finally. It sort of freaked Bao out to hear his voice, it wasn’t as deep as he expected, made him sound young--or probably his age, despite how fucking huge he was. That made everything feel worse.

“Okay, that's...Okay so you mainly just gotta try to jump over the mushrooms.”

“Okay.” He died a couple times in rapid succession. The motor skills weren’t there. “Oh,” He sighed. “I’m not good at this.”

Bao patted him on the bicep and Christ, why was his skin so cold?

“Hey, no, no you’re trying, it’s just--”

“I think something bad happened to me.” He sounded close to tears.

Bao winced and looked down at his own hands. They were shaking, and not because he was afraid that the kid could crush his head like a grape.  

“...Yeah. Yeah I know, big guy. We’re…trying to figure it out. I’m sure Jason can dig something up, he knows way weirder people than us.”

The kid made a sound that Bao was going to call a laugh because he didn't want to acknowledge the other possibility. He leaned into Bao slightly, managing to not crush him even, which was hopefully progress on the body control.

“...Jason can dig something…up. Okay.”

[justaboymadeofhoneyandglass]

Part 2!

On to Jason Todd, the second Robin. After Dick left, Batman caught a street kid stealing tyres off the batmobile and pretty much picks him up like a raccon and goes "you're coming home with me" thus he gains Jason as a son. Jason becomes Robin at age 11 and is desperate to live up to the expectations Dick set before him. When Bruce and Dick make up, Jason and Dick become close as brothers

Jason is murdered by the Joker at age 16 and we will come back to him in just a second

But first I need to bring up Tim Drake. Tim is a child genius who figures out Batman and both Robin's identities at a young age. When Jason died, Batman spiralled into a pretty bad place, becoming violent and despondent and Tim decided to stalk him about it

Tim stalks Bruce for a while and then demands he be allowed to be the third Robin. Batman is very against this, his son just died because he failed to protect him as Robin. But Tim does what he wants and pretty much bullies Batman into letting him be Robin at age 13. Most of Tim's job as Robin is to keep Batman in check while he's grieving and make sure he doesn't go off the deep end

Remember Jason? Surprise! He's alive again! A year later, Jason is revived by Ra's al Ghul (remember him for later), the head of the League of Assassins that first trained Bruce. Ra's has access to the Lazarus Pit which keeps him immortal and can revive the dead

But Jason comes back angry. Not only because the Lazarus Pit does that to you, but also for two personal reasons: 1. Batman did nothing to avenge his death. Joker is still alive because of his "no killing" rule. 2. He was replaced as Robin, as a son, as if he didn't matter

So Jason takes on the persona of Red Hood (an old alias of Joker's) and becomes a crime lord in Gotham to get Batman's attention. He also starts killing the villains that Batman refused to. He gets in many fights with Batman and tries to murder Robin a few times. It takes a good while before they actually talk and get anywhere, Bruce apologising and Jason realising how much influence the Lazarus anger is having over him

Very very very slowly they start to repair their relationship a little. Jason is still pissed, Bruce is still guilty, but over 4 years they are starting to be family again. Jason calls Tim "Replacement" as a nickname but they have more of a tense sibling relationship now. Red Hood considers himself an anti-hero but still presents himself as a crime lord to the rest of the world as a cover. Jason Todd is still legally dead but it's an open secret that he's alive bc he's just walking around Gotham the past 4 years

Jason takes every chance to guilt trip Bruce about his death to get his way and any time someone mentions death he's obligated to chime in "I died once"

He hardly hangs around Wayne Manor, and is not over for dinner as often as Dick, but will make appearances for the sake of Alfred's cooking and the kids sometimes

Once again back to Tim, at 15 his (neglectful, rich) parents found out about him being Robin and made him stop. They died 9 months later and he once again becomes a vigilante, now Red Robin because Robin has just been passed to someone else

Tim still lives at Wayne Manor and runs most of the tech and security systems in the Batcave and the Justice League watchtower (the Justice League think this is Batman running it alone. They are wrong). As a day job he is co-CEO of Wayne Enterprises despite having never completed high school

Ohhh thats cool!

Jason is honestly such an icon for that lmao

Keep em coming!

[oifaaa]

I'm not following your logic. Every piece of media Judd created about why Jason did what he did in UTRH was centered around the Joker being alive and every piece since has stated Bruce killing the Joker would heal Jason in some way. The only reason he breaks down and destroys is room after being healed by the Pit is that he learns the Joker is alive and killing people. 1-2

I'm starting to wonder if I'm the only person who's actually read this stupid book considering Jason literally says very clearly to the Joker in utrh that this isn't about you and that he is only bait - honestly tho alot of people get confused about this so I'll try to explain it

The Joker isn't important the only reason he is in the story is bc he killed Jason, if he was killed by literally any other person and that person was still alive by the time jason came back to life nothing about utrh would change apart from maybe the name red hood - the story of utrh is about Jason's relationship with Bruce that's what Jason cares about everything else the way jason thinks crime should be handled and his morals on killing are all secondary - jason doesn't actually want Bruce to kill Joker and he doesn't really expect him to, it's all theatre

If Jason actually wanted Joker dead or just to prove his system works better then Bruce's he wouldn't have to go through the whole show and dance of the stand off - he could of killed Joker when he had him tied up like Joker literally asked him why am I not dead and that's when Jason's says bc this isn't about you - I don't know how Judd could write that whole scene out and people still don't get it

So then we get to my point about Dick killing the Joker and how that wouldn't mean anything to Jason since Dick isn't Bruce and its really as simple as that - Jason wants to prove a point to Bruce, Dick killing the Joker before Jason has a chance to prove said point wouldn't help him at all it would of just made it more difficult for Jason to get the resolve he needed with Bruce and that's it

[snakeredbirdbatkatana]

Nightwing is a little bit batshit sucks to be Jason (TW Torture)

"You know, I felt so guilty about your funeral not that Bruce actually told me, but I would have wanted to be there."

It was supposed to be quiet night after his duffle bag stunt the alley, and majority of the actual problems have finally understood that the Red hood meant business was someone to be feared.

He didn't expect Dick in full blue bird getup to be sitting on his couch sprouting bullshit.

"Dickhead get the fuck out of my shit, and I don't give half a one about whatever your bitching is about."

He doesn't even see him move.

His back collides with the floor pain shooting straight into his spine. He can't even gasp before Dick's escrima is pressed to his throat.

He swallows.

He looks up at his brother in a way it's easy to forget the power of Nightwing under hugs and laughter he's deadly.

Batman's first protege the leader of the titans one of few able to actually take down the Bat.

"I wanted to be excited Jaybird, My baby brother back, and all grown up, but I think you forgot the rules Little Wing."

All cheery like it's a daily occurrence to threaten your supposed brother.

He goes to speak a hand covers his mouth pressure enough to pop his jaw.

"It's my turn ok Jay? Nod if you understand."

He nods.

"Now I don't mind what you did to Bruce, I happen to agree he should have done something, I killed Joker and guess what he revived him." He says with a giggle.

"I almost happened to enjoy your little bomb under the Batmobile if only my Robin wasn't about to enter it." Is growled into Jason's ear.

Almost on instinct Dick pushed down harder the stick starting to cut off Jason's breathe, before becoming almost gentle.

"You understand don't you, I protect my Robin's especially when they are running around in my suit. I still will happily protect you Little Wing, but you had to hurt my Baby Bird."

"Timmy's fourteen and you're funny enough over the age of eighteen Jaybird and what does it say about me if a grown adult can hurt my bird without consequence?"

Jason won't beg the little Pretender deserved what happened every broken bone, the fear it was music and no matter how scary Bitchwing can be he won't apologize he will do it again.

Dickhead must see his lack of apology the escrima turns on. He screams teeth shaking as he seizes. Dick turns him to the side a gentle hand rubbing his back incase he gets sick. It feels like hours but must have only been seconds.

"To think that was the lowest setting, I had hoped that you would apologize but I was wrong." Like a parent with a misbehaving child.

"It's ok, plan's can change, I'm gonna do it one more time, not enough to kill you of course! But you will be very uncomfortable when you wake up."

Laughter that would be hard to differentiate from a certain clown.

"You will learn though no one hurts my baby bird, especially not you."

It hurts so much, he bites clean through his tongue a scream cut of as vomit spews onto his floor quickly joined by another liquid.

He passes out to the sound of Dick's quiet humming and a hand running through his hair.

[imaginingmarvelandeverything]

five times afraid for the Convenience couple please ❣️ and yes i tried to choose the most angst one because they can't catch a break 😉💔

A/N: Well you wanted angst, so here's a boatload! If you would like to send me a request for one of my WIP pairs, you can find the prompt list here!

five times afraid:

One:

“Bruce, you need to breathe. Please, I need you to breathe.” Y/N tried to keep her tears at bay as Bruce clutched onto her harder. Her back hurt from how she had hit the floor when he all but collapsed on her, but she pushed the pain down and ran her fingers through his hair instead. “C’mon, please, breathe with me.”

She knew the first anniversary of his parents death that he spent away from Gotham would be hard for him; that was the whole reason she had flown out to visit him at his college for a week. He had been fine for the first two days, a little more reserved than normal, but she was expecting that. But she had not expected to wake up on the actual anniversary and have him burst into tears the moment he set eyes on her.

After that he had started having a panic attack and would have collapsed to the floor if she had not caught him. His breathing was still ragged and uneven and it terrified her.

“Please, just breathe with me.” She cupped his face and rubbed her thumb along his jaw as she exaggerated her own breaths.

It took a while, but eventually his breaths started to even out as well, and then he was just sobbing into her shoulder instead. But she could deal with that, as long as he just kept breathing.

Two:

Bruce did not know what to do with the small kid who was currently crying into his t-shirt. He could deal with hardened criminals, drug dealers and the literal worst of the worst without fear.  But having a recently orphaned eight year old clinging to him, sobbing his heart out terrified him more than he wanted to admit.

His first reaction was to call for Y/N, but she was out catching up with a friend from college and he really did not want to deny her the chance to talk to someone other than him, the kid or Alfred. It had also taken Dick so long to warm up to him that he did not want to just pass the kid off to someone else and end up back at square one.

So he took a deep breath and tried to think about what his parents used to do when he had a nightmare.

He had a vague memory of his mother holding him in her lap and singing Yesterday by the Beatles. Bruce was not very confident with his singing voice, so he started humming instead, gently rocking the kid just like his mom used to for him.

Three:

Y/N’s hands would not stop shaking as she reached out and took Dick’s hand in both of hers. She could barely hear what Leslie and Bruce were saying behind her; something about a baseball bat and a fractured skull and wait to see if he wakes up.

She wanted to run her fingers through his hair like she always did when he was hurt or scared or needed her, but the bandages wrapped around his head stopped her.

She should have fought him and Bruce harder when they said he was going to be helping Bruce each night. She should have fought them both tooth and nail because she was not sure how she would cope if she lost her little boy.

Four:

Jason was… Jason was standing right in front of him. Y/N’s account of what happened and the security footage from the cave had been one thing, but having Jason stood mere metres away from him solidified in Bruce’s mind that his son really was back.

But the choices Jason had presented him with terrified him. He could not kill his son, Jason meant too much, it had hurt too much to lose him the first time, for Bruce to even consider it. But he could not just stand by and let his son kill the Joker either, no matter how much Bruce wanted the clown dead himself. Jason, the carefree little boy who cared so much about people, did not need his own murderers blood on his hands

Bruce took a breath and tried to figure out a way out of this.

Five:

Y/N could not stop staring at the blood on her jeans as she combed her fingers through Jason’s curls. He was leaning heavily against her and sobbing into her shoulder as she tried to console him. But it was hard when she had watched as he slit Tim’s throat and they had no idea what was happening in the surgery room across the hall from them.

She knew, she did, that it had been the pit lashing out. His eyes had been so green they were almost glowing and the Joker had set everything up perfectly to ensure that Jason lost control and had someone in his wake to hurt.

But Tim was so small and he looked so much like Jason.

She curled her body closer around her second son and tried to push down her fear. Everything was going to be okay, it had to be.

[destefaniart]

🌻🌻

I've been debating what to discuss here for a while and I think I'll talk about one of the aus I should probably start sketching soon because I'll lose track of it when school begins again.

The first big au I have is batfam related, I think I made a post about it some months ago, and the premise is about how the joker is found death one day and the police and the batfam start to investigate about it.

Gotham citizens are fairly happy about jokers demise, but they're worried about who ended with his life, since the joker had not had anyone able to end him before, despite all the terror and misery he constantly put people through.

This leads to a whole debate about what should be done to the person who killed him, and that puts a lot of pressure in the GCPD, who had been investigating the case already, but now needs to get some results soon to keep operating relatively normally.

The batfam on the other hand, is the nuclear pov on this, obvly, and all of them are handling the news a bit differently.

Jason is by fat the most vocal about it, he is very very happy with the development of events at first, but his curiosity for who actually managed to finish his enemy starts to get the best of him, and he slowly starts to question if The batfam, a family of the greatest detectives is actually doing enough to uncover the truth.

On top of that, Bruce starts sulking more and more on the investigation as per usual, and he can't help but go back to his old resentments to the situation of his own death and later resurrection, which starts to wear them both down progressively, making the both of them snap at each other.

Jason ends up being pulled apart from the case because he is starting to take it too personally,and not taking well the situations and clues. So he starts his own investigation.

I can't help but think that there are some joker apologists in Gotham, or outside of it, for whatever reason. so, after the investigation is brought to the public by the media, there's a lot of scrutiny regarding batman and his way of investigating stuff and the public start to speculate about the batfam's involvement in Jokers death.

This prompts the previous apologists to try to uncover the truth, and some videos of the batfam and the jokers old fight are revealed. Jason witnesses the footage of Bruce's fights with the joker just after his death, and he is suddenly confronted by what Bruce tried to tell him back then, about how he did Grieve Jason.

And Jason... Doesn't know how to deal with that, he knew Bruce did Grieve him, but he had always felt that he didn't do it how Jason would have liked him to. He wanted to be avenged, he wanted the joker to die and to not hurt anyone. He wanted Bruce to put Him over his mission. He wanted Batman to make Justice, by killing the joker. And he Knows , he does, that he wasn't entirely wrong, about the joker just. Continuously hurting people but seeing Bruce take actions so brutal and directly makes the prospect real and different from what he expected.

It doesn't feel right, it doesn't feel how he wanted it to feel. And he is suddenly unable to know how to feel about Bruce acting like that because of him. It was just what he wanted, why... Why does it feel like this now? It's just so... Unlike Bruce, the Bruce he learned to accept now, the Bruce he loved since he was a child... And the caring figure he saw is hard to reconcile with the brutal batman he envisions now.

That's when suddenly, a video of Dick killing the joker, before, comes to light, and all the standards that jason had to adapt to himself to be welcome back in to the family seems to shatter before his eyes. Dick, who has always been able to redeem villains, to give second chances, who is know as the most trustworthy person in the cape community, maybe second person, just behind superman... Dick did that because of Tim... But also. Because of the memory of what happened to Jason.

And, Jason

So he goes to talk to the batfam about it. And that's the basic of the au lol

I just want them to actually confront a lot of the stuff they constantly argue about and yeah I'm focusing more on Jason's pov but I think a lot of characters need to discuss Jason's death and how they confronted that reality and the subsequent reveal of Jason's resurrection so YEAAAAH have a half baked au

[tate-lin]

Sorry but the whole “it’s wrong to ask for Bruce to kill!” Is such a stupid black and white view. Jason is his son, coming to his father begging his father to love him the way he needs. That’s a son reaching out, regardless of whether Bruce is capable. You can say that Bruce isn’t obligated to meet that and it’s right for him to say no, but Jason isn’t wrong for asking or trying. Beyond that, Bruce is also the one who isn’t showing respect for Jason’s limits or boundaries. If it’s wrong for jason to try and force Bruce’s hands because it doesn’t respect Bruce’s autonomy or boundaries, how is it okay for bruce to try to force Jason into behavior that Jason disagrees with? Why is it okay for bruce to slit Jason’s throat and leave him for dead just to prevent Jason himself from killing the joker? Bruce isn’t just setting a boundary for himself, he’s making a rule for everyone he interacts with. He holds himself up as the arbiter of justice, so it’s definitely hypocritical to then act like it’s wrong for someone to ask him for that justice

Hii Anon thanks for the ask! For those wondering, this is my post in question.

Alright, so let me break Anon's ask down:

My viewpoint that 'it's wrong for Jason to ask Bruce to kill' is a very black and white take on the matter

The reason why is because Jason is his son and it's okay for the son to ask that of him, regardless of whether Bruce is actually capable or not

Moreover, why do I say that Jason is in the wrong when Bruce also doesn't respect Jason's boundaries? How is it okay for Bruce to do those things and not Jason?

Bruce applies his no kill rule to everyone around him and that isn't fair

Bruce positions himself as the arbiter of justice so it should be reasonable and expected for him to be asked to kill as that's an act of justice

Phew, okay, that's a lot of things to cover (hope I didn't miss anything), but let's get started!

First things first, I want to clarify my intention for the original post. The audience I was addressing to was mainly fans who view that Bruce should have killed the Joker and he's a bad father and person for not doing so. Many other people have posted their own arguments as to why he isn't, but it was mainly about three things: why it's pointless, why it doesn't fit his character & narrative, and that he did attempt to kill Joker before. Personally, I felt like it was missing the point, which was why I wrote my post up in the first place.

To me, my stand on the issue is that Jason is 100% in the right about Joker dying. I think you and I can both agree that no argument should be made concerning this; Jason is the one who is morally correct about killing the Joker.

The problem here is that the choice of killing is in itself a boundary for everybody, and everyone is too lackadaisical about the discussion of it. I know that at the end of the day, all of this is just fiction, but I find it disturbing how many people on the Internet treat murder as something blasé. This extends to not just about fiction, but also real life, where people carelessly suggest it as a real option.

Thus, the reason why I wrote the post was because I wanted to remind everyone that killing is a boundary and that it's not actually okay to treat it as if it isn't.

Now that we have established that, I want to specifically centre the conversation around boundaries regarding Bruce's no kill rule, which is what my original post is about, and to do that, I will address points three and four very quickly. Firstly, I do not think that it is right of Bruce to disrespect Jason's boundaries. That is never in question for me.

However, that does not mean that it is right to do the same thing back. Or start the whole back-and-forth either. There is a reason why the saying 'an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind' and that's because we won't get anywhere if we harmed each other all the time. 'They did it to me first' is not actually a good reason to do things! An understandable one, sure, but not a good one.

Secondly, I do agree that Bruce applying his no kill rule to others isn't fair. I understand why he does it, up to a certain point, but I do think that it can be too much sometimes. As this will probably require a whole other post to discuss, I'll just leave it here, but anon I do wholeheartedly agree with you on this.

So finally! We're starting the conversation for real here. Reiterating point one and what Anon said about my view being very black and white—yes. That is precisely it. It is black and white because it has to be. This is a discussion on boundaries! The moment anyone starts injecting grey in it, they'd be defeating the whole purpose of setting boundaries in the first place.

You might be a bit confused at this point. Why would adding nuance be bad? Isn't that a good thing? Well, yes, in most situations, but not in this one, I'm afraid. To understand this better, let's see what respecting boundaries should consist of:

Accepting it

Not making fun of it, even if it seems nonsensical and stupid

Not trying to get them to change their mind

So as you can see, while there is room to negotiate for a compromise if two or more people's boundaries are at conflict, boundaries are generally very black and white things that people should strive to remember and follow. Otherwise, it invites a lack to respect towards you.

You see, our society isn't good at receiving rejections. I am a person that gets peer pressured a lot, and had been pushed to do many things in the past that I majorly regretted and left me in a bad spot. The reason I gave myself back then to force myself through it was that if I loved them, I should do it. That was what love was all about, right? I should love them in the way they cared about.

So I did it! Lots of things, numerous times! They were all gigantic acts of love for me, something that I really sacrificed for, but guess what? It was completely and utterly not worth it!! Sure, they were grateful to me in the moment, but since I did it once, I should be fine doing it another time, right? And if I did it a second time, then...

Anyway, I recently stopped doing that. This was my year! I'm never going to be that kind of idiot again, I told myself. But that doesn't stop others from repeatedly asking things of me, things I can't give. I can say no all I want, I can explain myself till I'm blue in the face, but if your boundaries are things others can't comprehend the gravity of, they will not stop. They just won't.

And the thing is, those friends never intended to hurt me. To them, it's just pestering, something everyone does. Completely harmless. But to me, it's wrangling a yes out of me to the point that it choked me out. Made me feel crazy, borderline INSANE.

So when I wrote my original post, I wrote it with the intention to yell this in everyone's face—asking, telling, and expecting others to do things they've already explicitly said they can't do is not okay. It's not.

And I absolutely will not budge on this. It doesn't matter if Jason is Bruce's son, it's still the wrong thing to do. Like I have already expressed in my original post, his reasons are extremely understandable and sympathetic. It's why I was so drawn to him in the first place. But going back to point two, that still does not mean it was a good thing to do, regardless of whether he knew better or not.

Hence, we finally reach point five. Bruce is Batman, the arbiter of justice in Gotham! He's more than just a man, he's a symbol! He owes it to the people to serve them the justice they want, the justice they deserve. Right?

Wellllll I'd have to say no here. I have talked about this extensively in my original post, but I'll clarify further here: he is just one person. He isn't more or less than Jason, than the common man, and Gotham isn't just his. Gotham belongs to everyone there, whether they be a waitress, baker, chiropractor, or a kid; he's just one amongst the masses.

He's just a person, and that person is just a volunteer. He does his best to protect and uplift his city, but he doesn't owe it to anyone to carry out a justice that he's extremely uncomfortable with and dead-set on avoiding.

Also, isn't his whole no-killing thing a result of his PTSD and something that very possibly grew from his trigger of guns? Yeah, let's not ignore that.

Anyway! We finally made it to the end! We finally made it, so let's get down to the true crux of the matter. What you actually wanted from me is to extend sympathy and compassion to Jason. And I just want to tell you that I am. I always have.

Actually, I used to be really angry at Bruce for not offing Joker off too, to be honest. But what I realised as I grew older was that just because you have the 'right' to ask for something, doesn't mean you should.

Dunno whether you'll read this cause you asked this anonymously but hope this answer satisfies you!! If it doesn't, feel free to ask follow-up questions ✌️