#hazbin rant

[celtrist]

Hazbin & Helluva Vs. Aromanticism

(Aka: I have a problem with the Spindlehorse team about this, not shippers.)

(Also this is mainly about Alastor but can go for Octavia and Mammon too.)

Alright, so I've cleaned up this uh... rant, to make things a little more clear hopefully. But to summarize here, this is about the team's lack of commitment when every other character is allowed full confirmation of their orientations but these (potentially) aromantic characters aren't.

While I have no beef with shippers (I think you can ship whoever with whoever you want, I ship Alastor too on occasion), there is some conversation about how the fandom might be a bit of a reason WHY they "can't" be confirmed as aro. But again, my main problem is more with the showrunners than the fandom at this point about this.

I'll also be getting into why it's "important" and the double standards against characters being aromantic.

This is not an attack, ship however way you wish (again, I do it myself). My intent isn't really to stop the shipping, that would be ridiculous. But more so to give my thoughts on why it's BS characters like Alastor can't be confirmed as aromantic when other characters are allowed confirmed orientations.

I will start off by saying I don't mind the shipping of Alastor. While it's NOBODY'S business but mine, I suppose it's important to clarify that I'm someone who does currently identify as aroace. I might be wrong but who cares, it's how I think of myself now at least to some degree (I do after all still have fictional crushes. Real-life romance is not an interest for me though, don't like 'em).

I'm gonna get what I don't think people talk about enough on both sides of being for and against shipping Alastor, and then I'll talk about the shippers as they're (I realized) not my main issue at this point.

A little history: So Alastor has been long time confirmed as an ace character. He hasn't been confirmed as being sex-repulsed or anything, but I can personally say I don't mind either flavor of him being repulsed or favorable (though I imagine the series will lean towards the former to counter everyone else's sex-favorable attitude and for jokes). This statement was initially taken VERY poorly by fans who, at the time, were shipping radiodust and radiobelle/charlastor, one more than the other. Care to take a guess which? The answer will not surprise you.

But then people realized "Oh, asexual doesn't mean he COULDN'T get with someone" and people even went further to "Being asexual doesn't mean he CAN'T have sex", both very true statements. So shipping was back on the menus boys! And his asexual was certainly blurred a bit (to the point where it wasn't even him being sex-favorable asexual as much as just not asexual, something that still happens but certainly not as bad). But overall, people were taking his canonicity as asexual with as much grace as a duck.

So here's where MY problem comes in. While I have some gripes with shippers, I had an epiphany that "Oh. It's not really the shippers I have a problem with. It's the people WRITING THE DAMN CHARACTER". Which, might I just say, is so much worst.

The shippers, while they got annoying at some points and certainly can be still, are just having fun. Because shipping just happens to be the way most people like to interact with characters in the media they're into. Hell, I am no different. I just have the misfortune of only really getting into rarepairs most of the time (curse you my bizarre tastes). I've even shipped with Alastor, I like AngelicSmile/radiojoy quite a bit.

Back on track. Now, what do I mean by my main problem being with the writers more than the fans with this? Well, queue this darling of a clip about the topic (this is the only clip I've found of the live stream, feel free to watch the whole video but just wanted the clip here).

This. Single. Clip. Infuriates me.

Vivzi, while I'm sure not meant to, pretty much implied "Alastor being aromantic and 'non-shippable' would ruin people's fun". I'm sure she meant it as a way to keep others from policing shippers (which didn't work, it still happens), it really just reads as "a character being aromantic is not a fun character". Like there's something wrong with being aro.

Not to mention some other things that would contradict this statement:

Viv in the past said "fans are allowed to ship outside character orientations", so... what makes that so different here with confirming Alastor as aromantic?

It being confirmed is not relevant to the plot. Great, so is every other orientation not relevant. Why can't Alastor be confirmed as aromantic but Vaggie can be confirmed as a lesbian or Vox bi? What does Vox being bisexual have to do with the plot? Neither is relevant to the plot, but one can be confirmed but not the other?

People were gonna ship him ANYWAY. Like, there's really no point in pretending. They were going to anyway because of the first point I already mentioned, but also people ship against canon orientations ALL THE TIME. It's just gonna happen and there's nothing wrong with that in of itself.

You've kind of just implied it's canon by not wanting to say specifically him being aromantic is canon or not. If Viv had just said "I don't wanna confirm his romantic orientation because...", then this statement would be fine and fair I suppose. But she had to call out him being aromantic specifically. And I mean, he COULD be something else (he was slated to be a couple with Mimzy originally after all), but the context doesn't seem like that would be the case. Plus, would she really feel the need to hold back from saying "Alastor is homoromantic" or biromantic or heteroroman- actually yes for that last one probably.

So riddle me this, with these points, why the FUCK would it be so wrong to confirm Alastor as a canonically aromantic icon and help get MORE REP for this very very very VERY underrepresented orientation? And I've thought of a few reasons to this, one of which being to avoid the same backlash that they got for Alastor being ace. Which, DID HAPPEN WHEN THE VOICE ACTOR AND SOMEONE ELSE ON THE SHOW CONFIRMED ALASTOR AS AROMANTIC BUT BACKTRACKED ON THE STATEMENT.

To which, fine. THAT'S on the fans (especially as no one would've complained if he was confirmed as homoromantic, which is a double standard VERY PRESENT in this fandom, but also many others quite honestly). But I can see another reason is to avoid others policing shippers about it.

Which, if that's the case, shit luck it's happening anyway.

To cower away from this orientation because of fans being upset says a lot, both about the fans and the creators. There is a whisper of "Alastor isn't allowed to be aromantic". That "being aro isn't allowed or appreciated".

We live in a world that at this point has a lot more lgbtq+ characters than ever before. At this point, there's just a lot of gay/lesbian and bi characters, and that's wonderful. But, there's barely a handful of aroace characters. And when they are, nobody wants to pay attention to that part of the character. So why can't the deer man be aromantic? I would imagine it would honestly make things a little better ship wise because ship wars wouldn't occur seeing as, well, there's no ship to be fought for. None of them could be canon.

So you might see where I'm leading into this, but I can only really think of one real reason Alastor being aromantic just "can't be confirmed" where as everyone else's orientations can be.

His popularity. Like, that's weird but walk with me here. Alastor is the most popular character in the fandom. There's honestly no denying it, he just is. And what do people do with the most popular character?

THEY SHIP THEM OFF IN A LOVEBOAT.

But wait, if he's aromantic, he can't be on a love boat. THIS IS BS-

And then... the outcry. And we HAVE seen this happen. I mentioned before, he was stated to be aromantic on two occasions by two people who work on the show, one of which is his voice actor (which I'll be fair, I personally don't think VAs always know the characters they play the best, that's the writers). But they had to backpedal because people DID complain. People WERE upset. So it's kind of shown just aromantism isn't really welcomed, at the very least not for a character like Alastor.

And that's the key: "Not for a character like Alastor". But if it were say, Niffty or Mimzy who are either overlooked or just not very popular, THEN it's probably more than okay for a character to be aromantic. Because no one wants to ship with them much, so they can be aromantic all they want.

AKA. The aro community is allowed the scraps but not the dinner.

At this point, you've probably noticed I switched gears from the creators to the fans because I DO think they could be a reason why Alastor "can't" be confirmed as Aromantic. I'll give credit, I'm pretty sure it's mainly on twitter and wouldn't be surprised if it was a "loud minority" thing going on, but the people have spoken. They vehemently cannot STAND the idea of Alastor being aromantic.

But I don't have a problem with these people quite honestly- I mean I kinda do, but my main issue is the lack of commitment when the other characters are allowed confirmed orientations. Why can't aromantic people get confirmed rep? Because "it'll ruin people's fun?" That's such a crappy reason because it's just saying being aro is bad on some level or isn't okay. Why can't the aromantic community get the dinner this ONE TIME? It's one character in a pool of many others that are canonically gay or bi, so why can't the aro community have this ONE popular character?

I'm not even asking for people to stop shipping him, I think that's perfectly FINE. It wouldn't change the canon. I'd appreciate more LOVE given to the aromantic identity (and I'm talking about the far end of it, so absolutely NO interest in romance as many have used aro Alastor but it still comes off as just normal shipping, but that's just me). There's such a double standard to the treatment of aromantic characters to the other characters in these shows (because Octavia and Mammon are in the same boat here), and the reasons given are so crappy that they sound more like off-hand excuses.

Again, I don't MIND people shipping Alastor, or Octavia, or Mammon who is randomly shipped with Adam the most. Let me repeat:

YOU. ARE. ALLOWED. TO. SHIP. THESE. CHARACTER.

But what I have a problem with is that these characters aren't allowed to be OFFICIALLY aromantic. How would it feel if this was a gay character? That they didn't want to confirm it but there's been indications with past statements and even in-universe stuff indicating so? I WANT Viv and her team to STICK with what route they were gonna go with.

And some might argue "what's so bad with nothing being confirmed?" Other than the fact every other character's orientations are allowed confirmation and Viv's crappy way of putting it in not confirming anything. There's, by all technicalities, nothing wrong.

However, if I may pose a counter, why is it fair for people to demand or ask for gay representation or confirmation but not aromantic? Because it's "not ruining anything"? If that's the case, I'm inclined to say that may be a bit aphobic. Because how is it that a character being aromantic can "ruin" the character or something, but a character being gay DOESN'T "ruin" the character. It's a double standard that I don't think most people realize or want to say because you don't want to be dissing on gay stuff.

But WAKE UP SHEEPLE. The gay stuff has PLENTY of things by this point. Whether through fan works or official media, it is growing and it is growing rapidly. And we should be HAPPY about that. But alternatively, Aromantic (and asexual) rep BARELY gets any attention in either fan works or official media. People would be UPSET if a ship like Angel Dust X Vaggie or Stolas X Verosika got into one of the top most popular ships. But Alastor? Nah, it's fine.

Again, while I don't mind the shipping itself, hopefully, you can understand how it might feel to see one of the most popular ships involve a character that goes against their orientation and it's YOUR orientation. It doesn't. Feel. Great.

And not everyone who ships Alastor even would LIKE him to end up with who they ship. Some people just like it staying in fanon. I have met SO MANY nice people who ship Alastor with characters that I personally don't really like him shipped with. But it's clear that I don't think THEY'D mind if he was confirmed aromantic because it doesn't change their life. They'll still keep shipping him because that's fun for them and that's FINE. People explore themselves through characters with confirmed orientations and they don't always line up with canon, and that's FINE. I don't think people should be policed on shipping with the deer man, they're just having fun. Would I appreciate a little more love for the aro identity? Sure (I mean just look at Alastor's ship weeks activeness vs. his aro week activeness), but if that's not how people have fun they shouldn't be forced to do stuff with it.

But Alastor being seemingly "not allowed" to be confirmed as aro has set a precedent that there's something wrong with being aromantic. And personally, it makes me feel a tad unwelcomed sometimes.

It's the precedents. Again, why is every other character's orientation allowed to be confirmed but Alastor's isn't? What is so wrong with him being aromantic? Hell, he might not even BE aromantic. But at least I'd KNOW instead of floundering around hoping upon a star for some aromantic representation.

It's okay to be gay but- WHOA HOLD YOUR HORSES THERE. WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO PUT A PAUSE IN THAT ARO BUSINESS YOU GOT THERE.

A character's worth is in how shippable they are. And if they're aromantic, they're not shippable. And unfortunately, there are just enough people to throw a hissy fit about it that Viv doesn't want to confirm it.

Because apparently being aromantic would "ruin" things.

[cryinhell]

I guess I just need to get this off of my chest. I've been seeing this idea that when Husk goes into detail about his past of being an overlord to Angel, he will feel betrayed and scared or some shit.

But I ask why?

The entire point of the Hazbin Hotel is for sinners who want to change or regret their pasts, come to redeem themselves. Husk clearly hates himself and drinks to forget his past and his current situation. He is not like Valentino, who sees nothing wrong with what he's doing and doesn't want to change. But Husk has changed. A lot, and we already see how he's become this sweetheart with a strong respect for consent.

Angel knows this. He knows who Husk is now, so why would his past ruin everything? Also, I think this fandom forgets that Angel isn't innocent? I mean, besides being a drug addict, formally a liar and selfish, Angel was a mobster when he was alive.

He has done terrible things and can understand more than anyone in the show how it feels to want to change. No one believed in Angel and he didn't believe in himself, but Husk told him it was okay to be a fuck up. He gave him the courage to be himself and accept his flaws in order to become a better person.

Angel isn't weak, and he's loyal to those he cares about. He understands that all sinners have done awful things and some more than others. If anything, he'd be telling Husk not to hate himself because of his past and rather to work on being better.

Plus! Angel already knows Husk was an overlord. The man straight up told him. This isn't like Vaggie, who hid her past, but he just came out with it. There won't be some shock or horror because Angel already knows. He is smart enough to understand that people have dark pasts and can move on from them. If they really want to and Angel can see Husk's remorse and pain.

I just ask for the fandom to stop treating Angel like some stupid damsel who doesn't understand the layers to a situation like this. And to stop villianizing Husk when other overlords like Alastor are constantly excused.

Okay, that's all I wanted to say. Have a good one

[sharkboy-starmites]

Hate when people are mean to real life people because if a fictional character they like. Dude ESPECIALLY in the hazbin fandom. Like how is your favorite character gonna be alastor (a murderer who owns people and is a cannibal) but then go and hate on people for liking valentino (a murderer who owns souls and assults people) or thinking he's interesting. Like both are characters who do crime and violence to others and show no remorse whatsoever but one is okay to like and the other isnt??? Like as long as your not saying what a evil fictional character is doing is okay there is no issue with liking them. One of my favorite mha characters is shigaraki, does that mean I condone what he's done? NO obviously not. I swear the critical thinking is so down these days. And people were harassing valentinos voice actor. Leave him out of your hate for a character he's the voice not the guy. Sorry for this out of the blue rant but jeez man this really bugs me. Like whatever character you want just don't try and say their evil actions are okay, in short, use your brain. I would also like to say, this post is not a defense of valentino. He's the worst. Just saying you can like his character without liking him as a person.

TLDR: fandom weird about evil fictional characters being liked.

[jellatonoflove]

i love hazbin hotel. i am extremely critical of it at the same time.

ive found that its actually a lot more fun to imagine things they *couldve* done in a positive light. like scenes where the characters address problematic things from their time periods (like alastor needing to straighten his natural hair, for example) and learn to grow from that shit! actually seeing them come into the more modern and kind world, and actually seeing them redeem! not just that, just things about themselves, you know? like genuinely getting therapy, which is what the show is about. unlearning self destructive behavior and healing from trauma and growing as people, give me some of *that* shit.

dont get me wrong; pointing out what helluva and hazbin did wrong is very, very important for this community. its just also beneficial to imagine the possible positives, and making fan content of that. this isnt me saying that you have to positive about the show, or that you have to do this. its just nice to think about, you know?

[atlasskie]

Alastor is not lawful evil. Calling him lawful either means you don’t know what lawful means, or you believe it was legal to commit murder in the 1900’s America. Yes, he’s evil, I think we can all agree with that (I can concede slightly to neutral even). People point to his morals as him being lawful, but that’s not what the alignment chart means by lawful. In the alignment chart, neutral means bending the rules or occasionally breaking them. Chaotic means challenging authority and constantly breaking rules. Alastor is either chaotic neutral or chaotic evil. He might have his own rules about who he kills and who he doesn’t kill, but that doesn’t mean he’s lawful. I’ve seen so many comments and videos calling him Lawful Evil, that I’m certain people have misunderstood what lawful evil means. Alastor doesn’t change laws to make it so that his actions are legal. He straight up just breaks laws. When he was alive, he killed and ate people. He obviously doesn’t follow the law. Please stop calling him lawful evil.

[anonymouscheeses]

Lunch by Billie Eillish is one of Chaggie's songs u can't change my mind.

Yes I'm listening to Lunch right now why?

But srsly wlw song for the wlw couple thats jst perfect 😍

[stegosauricide]

Sigh. Please, let's not leak, nor share the Hazbin Hotel spoils. Talking about what you saw in them really isn't helping either. Thankfully, I haven't seen them, but I feel very bad for those who have, and I've gotten spoiled my fair share just from reading tweets and other posts regarding the contains of these leaks.

Please be mindful about what you share, not only these major, storyboard leaks but also just discussing what you saw.

Vivziepop, Spindlehorse and their team have been working so hard to make this come true, and we should be grateful for the effort they are putting into this. This, leaking and spoiling their hard work isn't fair. I, for one, am more than satisfied with waiting, grateful knowing I will be able to see the amazing work when it's worked through and finished. So should all of you be. Thank you.

[nightshadedawn]

Hazbin Hotel Season 1

I don’t usually do rants like this, but I’mma give it a try.

Now to start out, I do absolutely LOVE Hazbin Hotel. Songs are catchy, I love character dynamics and designs. I love the idea of it all. It’s all super fun. There’s just something off about it that makes it moreso fanfiction fodder than a show. By that I mean I enjoy fan content based off the show more than I enjoy the show itself. And recently I’ve realized why that is.

Season 1 feels like Season 3.

It has Season 1 characters. They’re more character types and stereotypes than proper characters, they don’t have a lot of development, they’re shallow. But the plot is very Season 3. We start in the middle of everything. We’ve skipped the introduction. How did Charlie come up with the idea? How did she meet Angel Dust, the first resident? That’s a very Season 1, Episode 1 sort of plot, an introduction to the world and the story. If it’s important that Charlie and Vaggie are already dating when the series starts, that’s perfectly fine and wouldn’t mess with it a lot, just… continue to treat her like a demon for the first season.

Alastor and Lucifer’s song “Hell’s Greatest Dad” feels unearned and thus unrewarding. It comes in at Episode 5: “Dad Beat Dad”. Episode 5… of 8. And they’re not particularly long episodes, either. Ranging in around the 25-minute mark, they’re pretty short by most show standards, especially in today’s times where shows are starting to have literal movie length episodes, but even 10, 20 years ago where episode lengths tended between 30-40 minutes. That’s not even actually factoring in the opening and end credits, which while they don’t take up too much time, does absolutely cut into screen time. On top of that, Lucifer and Alastor are part of an ensemble cast. They have to share the spotlight, so neither gets too much focus.

A comparative song that does work is “Stayed Gone” from Episode 2: “Radio Killed the Video Star.” They are both songs that feature Alastor beefing with someone who’s trying to steal his thunder. He’s fueled by ego, and clearly winning the fight he’s in. The difference between the two songs is that Vox is part of Alastor’s story, which makes “Stayed Gone” a prelude to learning more about that. It sets up a dynamic, clues the viewers in on what’s going on, and how moments between them will play out.

In “Hell’s Greatest Dad,” however, Lucifer and Alastor have no connection with each other. The only connection they have at this point in the story is a third point—Charlie. Lucifer is part of Charlie’s arc, part of Charlie’s story. They’re fighting over Charlie, but neither of them have reached the point of really being a “father figure” to her. They don’t have a relationship to each other to make the song authentic. And by “relationship” I don’t mean a good one. I mean any sort of discernable character interaction that defines them as a duo. Enemies, rivals, etc. What they have feels forced and fabricated.

Alastor and Lucifer’s relationship feels like it should be a culmination of events leading up to it in Season 3, or late game Season 2. (This is working off a regular 24 episode format per season if that helps to better visualize what I’m talking about)

Lucifer as a character shouldn’t have shown up in Season 1. Like, not at all. We didn’t get to sit on Charlie’s insecurities, her issues, her emotional arc, because Lucifer… just appeared and fixed everything in like, 1 episode. Lucifer appears and at the end of the episode we get “More Than Anything.” Which, while a sweet song, I think personally should have remained just a love song. It has similar issues to “At All Costs” from Disney’s Wish. It also felt unearned, due to the time constraints.

Lucifer should have shown up at, at the earliest, the end of Season 1. The very last Episode. That way, we have a full Season of Alastor being that father figure to Charlie, of being her mentor and guiding her when she has no one, and starting to accept that and see him in that role, only for Lucifer to return, replaced. Season 2, that minor plot sees Lucifer trying to be Charlie’s father, and he is, but she’s got someone to fill that role who’s not him. He has to go through something similar to Alastor in Season 1 in building up that relationship. “More Than Anything” or its equivalent should take place mid-Season 2, maybe even 3/4ths the way through (so around Season 2, Episode 18, or Season 2, Episode 6 if we go by current show standards) to feel rewarding. The climax of this minor plot for the season (not the season’s plot, this would be a B Plot at best, but more like a D or even E Plot) would be “Hell’s Greatest Dad”. Instead of an introduction to their dynamic, it would be just another of a series of arguments for Lucifer and Alastor. Possibly something to be called back to if they reconciled their relationship in later seasons.

All of this gives Charlie more time to sit and stew and grow. Her goal in this scenario is to grow, and a good plot is the “what do I do to prevent the character from reaching their goal?” from the writer. Lucifer entering the picture is an obstacle to her achieving that goal. It sets her back. Brings up all her insecurities, reverts her to that little girl and “Why did you abandon me?” sorts of thoughts and feelings. It puts her under pressure to be the best, which has effects in other areas of her life and the show. It would cause a domino effect and affect her relationships with every single other character. But that’s a spiral we’re not focusing on for this rant. In Summary: Lucifer is not a Season 1 character.

Alastor is not either.

Well, sort of. He’s not a Season 1, Episode 1 character. He’s more a Season 1, Episode 4 character. Frankly I’d prefer to push it even further out, maybe mid-Season, to Episode 10. But we don’t want to hold up suspense too much. Alastor is supposed to be scary. He’s powerful. He’s an Overlord. He’s dangerous. And they need him. I say mid-season because of the above relationship building with Charlie, we need that time for them to bond. But you need to build up suspense for a character like that.

Imagine it like this: First few Episodes, he’s just the Radio Demon. A newbie doesn’t know this guy’s going to be important. They just know he’s an overlord who’s dangerous. He gets name dropped along with other Overlord characters at the end of Episode 2. Episode 3, you hear his show for the first time, entering the scene right as he’s taunting a victim (it’s the only sound at first until the point of the scene comes up) and the scene cuts out with the sounds of tearing flesh, a gulp, and a content sigh. Screams of terror and pleads for mercy play from the radio in the background of the scene, muffled by the rest of what’s going on, but there all the same.

Episode 4, you finally see the Radio Demon for the first time. Not Alastor. The demon. One of the characters probably witnesses the altercation in person. Probably Angel Dust. At this point the only ones at the hotel are probably Charlie, Vaggie, Angel Dust, and maybe Sir Pentious if we rearrange the story just a bit with him. It’s important to remember that none of the protagonists are involved, they’re just witnesses, and this is not the main point of the episode. It’s still just a passing event. There’s a chance that Charlie sees the entire things on the TV, witnessing Angel get caught in the middle of it. Somebody comments after the altercation that they need THAT sort of manpower protecting the hotel with all of the bullshit other Sinners are pulling.

I’d like to say Episode 5, this leads Charlie to Rosie. Rosie is in charge of Cannibal Town, and thus can’t have an area under her protection that’s so far away. But she does have a powerful friend that’s untethered. We bring in Alastor. As long as the hotel amuses him, he’ll work with them and that whole spiel. The important thing is it’s not entirely clear he’s the Radio Demon yet. Everyone is getting on board throughout the episode, everyone except Vaggie, who it can start being hinted she can sense a little bit more because she’s a Sinner. She can tell there’s something Other even compared to the other Sinners. In the last few minutes of the episode the hotel is attacked but Alastor has already agreed it’s under his protection, so obviously he has to go protect it. This is when we get the Radio Demon. Now I’d like to split that into two episodes, maybe taking an episode to find Rosie and convince her and Alastor is introduced at the end then the next episode is about getting to know him, but for the sake of consistency, we’ll keep it in Episode 5, and more time to introduce Husk and Nifty, because I’d like each of them to have an episode on their own.

But do you see my vision? It builds up the hype. It gives breathing room to explore other characters before the cast gets congested. But there’s still time to get to know Alastor through the rest of the season.

Now, as I said, I love Hazbin Hotel. I think Season 1 Angel Dust and Husker were done really well. If you include the pilot episode on YouTube, Husker is the perfect Season 1 character. He’s an archetype, but he has growth. Growth within his archetype, but that’s fine. Build on your base before you attempt to branch out and all that stuff.

Angel is a little more tricky; he’s is more a Season 1, Episode 2 character than Season 1, Episode 1. Because, as I said earlier, from the get go we don’t really know how he got caught up in the hotel, even from the pilot. And then his arc gets pretty rocketed to a Season 2 arc rather than a Season 1. By that I mean he had his breakdown moment in “Poison” and “Loser, Baby”, the second song helping the rebuilding effort, but it didn’t arc back upwards, it went in a very sharp angel back to where he was. In Episode 6: “Welcome to Heaven” it tries to show how he’s changed, but it comes very out of place. Charlie has them doing all these exercises throughout the season, but none of them really seem to work. That gag could be kept, as long as outside of those Angel’s growth or the “real Angel” shone through, whatever spin it’d have on it. Subtle moments that could be looked back on and pointed to and then culminate at the bar with Valentino. It’s the climax of his arc. What should get him into Heaven but doesn’t. This would happen late season, so nearing the end he’s a good person, but then he finds out he met Adam’s criteria, and still didn’t get into Heaven. Depending on where this lands, before or after the climatic fight, Angel would become a shell of himself, and by Season 2, he’s reverted to his old self because “being good didn’t work, so fuck it, why even try.” Instead we get a character that feels static because he feels the same as he did at the beginning in the first episode. A lot of Angel’s issues are how short the season and episodes are in canon is what I’m trying to say.

Characters like Lucifer and Alastor can work, making an out of Season character fit into a different Season. It usually shrouds a character with an air of mystery. Dawn Summers from Buffy comes to mind. She’s introduced in season 4 and treated like she’s always been there, despite the fact it’s only her first season. Characters act like she’s a fully realized character herself. The truth eventually comes out and everything makes sense. The issue comes in that Hazbin Hotel is messy. It’s too short, every character feels like they’re from twenty different jumping off points, and most especially, the Heaven plot is too Season 3.

In video games, boss battles get progressively harder. Trying to go right for the big boss means you’re gonna die. For a demon in hell, the ultimate enemy is an angel. With Adam as Season 1’s big bad, you can only use other angels as more powerful foes. But that get repetitive, which means the only next logical level is the head honcho himself. And why the fuck would the christian god be LEVEL 2!? It makes no sense.

The first season should have been exclusively in hell. The building of the hotel, trying to keep it afloat, getting residents. The villains should be Overlords trying to prevent their contracted souls from getting pardoned and sent to Heaven. There’s a perfect setup for an altercation between Alastor and Vox. Vox could even be used more than once, managing to slither away from Alastor like Alastor did Adam to come back with more firepower. Smarter. Stronger.

The first season, the first boss, should have personal stakes. Think of Persona 5. Kamoshida personally hurt 3 out of the 4 OG Phantom Thieves (all four if you count both Morgana’s imprisonment and the Protag’s record getting spread). Every Palace has personal stakes for at least one of the thieves, but the stakes get higher. The Holy Grail has been manipulating the Protag for a year and Charlie’s entire goal is to reform Sinners to get into Heaven. The opposition to both is trying to hurt a lot of people, and both Joker and Charlie want to save a lot of people. It’s personal to them but the goal is huge. Do you sort of get what I’m getting at? What, in the world of Hazbin Hotel, is bigger and has higher stakes than a war with Heaven?

That is my rant, thank you for reading. I really don’t know what season 2 is going to do.

[thespectatingcrow]

Hazbin Hotel got into yet another controversy

So, Hazbin Hotel released some new merch for Valentine's Day! As usual, the art in the merch is amazing, but there is a matching keychain set that has gotten people talking again.

They had gotten into "drama" about merch of certain characters, but it's resurfaced because of the matching "F*** Me" keychain. I have opinions I'd like to voice, about the choices of commercialized characters and the way Vivziepop chose to write things.

CONTENT WARNING:

This post will discuss heavy topics, such as sexual abuse, power dynamics, manipulation, poor writing choices, among other things.

- The Characters, and how they're projected.

If you don't know about the main antagonists in Hazbin Hotel, that's okay!! because it's very hard to tell sometimes. Two of the three V's (a group of overlords) get much more attention than the third. Vox and Valentino are the two that have become super produced merch-wise.

Vox is a TV-based demon overlord, owning a technology company called Voxtech (subtle, i know,) and acts as a sort of defuser for when Valentino gets pissy.

Valentino is a moth-based demon overlord who, from what we're to assume, owns the porn industry in hell. He works with those who sell their souls to him, telling them that he can make them a star. He fell into insane controversy when it's revealed that Angel Dust is one of his signed workers.

Angel Dust is his own issue, but for now we'll focus on him as a plot point. He allows the show to show what Valentino is like behind closed doors, which is utilized somewhat when Valentino pulls him aside to scold him for getting Charlie, the Princess of Hell, involved.

Valentino is not a good person, but he has a lot of potential. His design isn't awful, utilizing his moth look to give off a charming look to blind people from the red flags. He's extremely suggestive and touchy, which given his line of work makes sense, but he's also very touchy with Vox.

Vox is introduced with a simple bit- that he hates Alastor. We get to know over time that the two used to be close before something drove them apart. This could be an amazing idea to expand on for his depth, possibly letting the writers insinuate that he got with Valentino as a rebound and the two occasionally try to get each other to sign their soul away; letting the writers have fun with two characters who don't love each other more than they love the power they could hold.

(which is something I assume Valentino values, because of the way he treats Angel Dust and the others who work for him as nothing more than the robots he owns.)

- The Issues with making Valentino a "Sexy" Character.

Having a villain who is sexy is fine, encouraged even! Letting your villains or antagonists show their charisma instead of simply telling us that they're charismatic is great. The issue arises when the character is like Valentino is.

He shows no empathy or remorse for what he does, he doesn't care about those he owns, and the only person he "loves" is Vox and even then I doubt their connection. He has an appealing design, yes, but christ can we not make comments about how "he's hot so it's fine"?

There have been people saying that if Valentino wanted to sexually assault them they'd let him, which ISN'T A GOOD THING.

Vivziepop also went though an issue with staff at one point- since one of her artists would consistently post ship art which glorified and romanticized the sexual harassment and abuse that Angel would experience due to Valentino and Vox using their power as the ones who own Angel's soul. It made a lot of victims feel extremely sick, and rightfully so, that someone who was storyboarding the dance where it shows Angel (from what i assume) disassociating as he's either being assaulted or being filmed for one of Valentino's pornos.

It's also commented on that Valentino began to have more dangerous kinks that he wished to capitalize on such as waterboarding, which Angel cannot refuse or else he will be hurt.

Again, letting your villains be sexy is perfectly fine but it comes to a point where you shouldn't make merchandise for someone like Valentino. I know that I wouldn't be comfortable with someone making merch or swooning over my villain if I made him a rapist power-tripping porn industry guy, not to mention how insensitive it feels after so many victims of assault came out talking about how it makes them feel sick knowing an sexual assaulter is being glorified.

The keychain itself is detailed, funny, and charming, but it's dragged down when one of the characters is a very well known abuser and takes advantage of people at their lowest for his own gain and pleasure.

How To Make An Attractive Character Hated Without Making Them An Abuser / The Difference Between Universes

That's right, I'm also touching on Helluva Boss for the sake of my argument. In Helluva Boss S2, a character named Chaz is introduced. He's a sex pest who dated both Millie and Moxie in the past, and he came back looking for money. He's a stupid guy with charm until the moment he opens his mouth to talk about his big dick. It's great for comedy in the episode, since all his scenes are a treat. They know that they can't have him be too serious, since he isn't a serious guy.

This juxtaposed with how they portray the sex-pest in Hazbin Hotel is great, but that makes me feel like they could have handled Valentino so much better. In the show, the writers- mostly Viv I assume- make him swear once every other sentence.

(That isn't hyperbole, out of the around 19 sentences Valentino gets from his first scene in episode two he swears in 9 of those sentences. Two of those counted clean sentences being a simple "No." and "Do nothing?")

The overabundance of swears is not only harmful to the younger audience who are bound to find their way to the media, but is also harmful for the narrative. Vivziepop has a major issue with writing swears where they don't belong, and jokes where it breaks the tension of a scene. I understand that Hazbin Hotel is a comedy, but Vivzie cannot use that argument when it's also a musical, drama, and mystery. Some shows do an amazing job covering several genres, but it's like someone trying to juggle for the first time and dropping a ball- it all comes apart until you're trying to get the balls back together and continue the show all while the spectators laugh at your poor performance.

She's too prideful of a person to take actual criticism, which stunts her show's growth because in the end; Angel Dust will be a sex symbol, Alastor's asexuality will be the butt of the joke, female characters will be ignored or poorly handled, and Valentino will be the hot villain.

In Conclusion; How To Fix a Bad Character.

In Hazbin Hotel, we're shown the good and bad of Hell. Vivzie isn't able to show us that difference well without resorting to "oh they swear all the time because it's Hell" meanwhile the angels do the same thing without repercussion.

I think that if Vivziepop can swallow her pride and listen to her critics, she could write something that would give Valentino more depth. Giving him a moment with Angel where he feels bad before lashing back to his usual violence would be not only a good scene but important to establish what Valentino would want from Angel- why he cares so much where he is and what he's doing. Valentino owns Angel's soul, and I wish Vivziepop could do more with that.

In the upcoming season, we're getting another character and more lore, so I hold out hope that we get something that isn't just poorly written twinks grinding against each other for no reason other than fanservice for an abuser and his co-worker.

I'm also happy to hear arguments and opinions of people who disagree, or think there would be an even better way for her to handle Valentino as a villain. It's been a while since I saw the show, and the merch drop reminded me of Vivzie's issue with making merch of sexual abusers for some reason.

[cryinhell]

It's frustrating and hilarious to me how people are on Husk for being a formal overlord, but Alastor can get away with anything. It's just weird? I mean, Husk is a decent guy now despite his past, and I see so many posts calling him abusive and toxic. Was he abusive as an overlord? I don't know, but he's not in current canon. As much as I am eager to learn more about his overlord backstory, I know people are going to say he deserves to be abused by Alastor because of what he did. I know it, and it's so stupid. Give the man a break damn.

[jellymellydraws]

I don't think Stephanie Beatriz was the best casting choice for Vaggie.

HEAR ME OUT

Every character in the show is voiced and sung by their VA. But most importantly (in the context of my take), their singing voices STILL SOUND LIKE THE CHARACTER. Alex Brightman is the most damning piece of evidence here. He voices multiple characters in the Helliverse and they still sound like that same character when he sings. Pentious sounds like Pentious when he sings. Adam sounds like Adam.

This has NOTHING to do with Stephanie Beatrize's talent and skill set. She voices Vaggie well. She sings well. But her singing range is NOT as low as her speaking voice for Vaggie. The voice she uses is below her range, and the difference in sound is MASSIVE.

After the angel reveal, I considered making an angelic exception that the higher singing voice was just a heavenly trait. BUT, the we have Lute. Lute's singing voice still maintains the edge of her talking voice.

So while I LOVE Stephanie Beatrize and her work, if they wanted the low edgy voice of Vaggie then I think the VA should've been someone who could talk AND sing in that range.

It just....bugs me that I can hear the songs and know which character is singing but I need to remind myself that Vaggie sings in a higher registry.

[eternalera]

okay im gonna say a problem thats really been bagging at me. and its 'the angels are bad because they dont know what gets someone into heaven shtick'

but like... we do know? we know that you have to be a good person and not a douchbag (ik adams in heaven but im assuming that he was good at first and then turned evil although this is just an assumption)

like sir pentious was the least problematic out of the cast (that could go to heaven) and he did end up getting redeemed. so we know that you have to be a good person now do we know what qualifies as 'good'? no.

but actually counter argument, do we know what qualifies as bad? because if good and bad are opposites of each other then in order to be considered 'good' you just dont have to be bad. if its considered 'bad' not to steal then dont steal. if its considered 'bad' not to lie then dont lie.

does hell know what gets a demon down there? we dont know. all we know is that heaven doesnt know what qualifies someone as good. not to mention im pretty sure that they aren't in charge if whether or not a soul passes the pearly gates. im pretty sure thats some higher being.

cause you could say its the seraphims but uh

sera and emily seemed pretty darn shocked the sir pentious (a sinner) was there in the first place so its clear that they were never really in charge of who enters heaven so while yes this made the court case kinda... pointless- i dont think that this made them evil.

charlie didnt know what made a soul able to enter heaven either and while yes she isnt heaven born so she would have no reason to need to know it still makes me groan every time it comes up because like-

you clearly dont know what makes a soul enter heaven either. and these seraphims are more than clearly not in charge of it so how does that make them evil?

im sorry this is such a rant but im trying

point is that i dont see why it instantly makes heaven the 'bad guys' in the fact that they dont know what makes a soul able to enter heaven. especially the seraphims. its clear that theyre not in charge of who enters heaven so theyve had no reason to know that stuff. theyve had no reason to know why a soul passes the pearly gates. they never thought of redemption so why does that make them the bad guys (also before you go off its clear the emily never thought of it although she is willing to give it a try being more open minded). its a new idea that most likely might throw off the balance of heaven in some way so yes some people are scared to try it. it doesnt make them bad

anyways i think thats it... idrk feel free to add more ig

[inspiredwriterstory]

If anything, and I mean ANYTHING. Is going to get me cancelled, it is this. But being neurodivergent in the context of Hazbin's hell, can be a death sentence.

Okay listen, I'm going to start with this: This is not me trying to be an ablist bitch. I'm autistic myself, but I won't pretend I know every experience form of being neurodivergent. This is just me being autistic as fuck and over analysing shit. And If I worded anything weird, say something incorrect, by all means, correct me! Let me know! Now that we got that out of the way: Allow me to explain.

Hell is basically a kill-or-be-killed scenario. This is already bad enough because in that sort of context on earth in any time period, that can lead to some pretty gruesome deaths. But it gets worse when you realize how over-stimulating hell can be, because while in the wild or countries in poverty at least you have some chill because there are little to no humans around, but Hell, especially Pentagram City, has a literal population problem to the point heaven has to exterminate the city every year, I'll circle back to that later. On top of that, if you are nonverbal or just are terrible with social skills, it's pretty likely some dude is gonna kill you because you accidentally disrespected them. These are already overwhelming odds, but it gets worse. Imagine if you fell into the hands of someone like Valentino because they just so happened to be in the right place at the right time, and you just wanted a chance of survival in this new, overwhelming place. That would be a miserable afterlife, but even then it gets worse. If you somehow survive hell long enough by hiding from everyone and scrapping by with food you found off the street, you have to worry about the exterminators. You probably haven't even heard about them at this point because you've been in hiding for so long, so unless you get extremely lucky and somehow don't get spotted, you're as good as dead. The best chance you have at survival is to spawn near the Hazbin Hotel, or even rarer, just someone with genuine kindness in hell. I wish it wasn't true, but dropping in with a neurodivergence is basically a death sentence in most cases. HOWEVER, there is another, but more terrifying option. That is becoming an overlord, which may seem impossible because of everything I just listed, but when you're neurodivergent you have two options: try and work around and with a world with no accommodations, or fight them for it. You can't tell me there isn't at least one neurodivergent dude on earth that would lose his cool cause he ain't dealing with the same shit he dealt with on earth, and just started attacking anyone who started shit, ripping through anyone who challenged them until he had followers, money, power and souls. That is probably the most terrifying overlord you can find in hell, and all because their brainwaves aren't on the same frequency as everyone else per se. ALSO: So whenever you enter hell, you're given a different body. Most of these are at least some form of human, and even the ones that aren't like Sir Pentous who you can't convince me didn't face plant at least some when he first entered hell, but that leads onto my point: Your own enemy is your own body. Even with most body types being mostly human, they still have issues. As stated, Pentious probably struggled without legs, Angle Probably had his arms get in the way, Husk probably accidentally hit people with his wings, and I'd bet Money Vox hit doorframes with his head because he didn't properly judge how big his TV head was. So while your trying to adapt to the change of the wild and unpredictable hell, your also fighting against your own body in an attempt to gain any sort of sense of bearing. And to add onto that, those who reach overlord rank through anger and ripping others apart, probably have incredible motor skills with their new body because the learned through sheer force and practice that either everyone just makes room because it's a near death sentence to stand near them, or they spent so much time practicing they learned how to use it to it's theoretical limit.

So what I'm trying to say, is that you become either brutally powerful, or six feet below. No in between.

Unless I'm wrong! Again, if I'm uneducated, let me the fuck know!

[wutevsth3doll]

I hate Alastor with every fiber within me (RANT IN COMING)

He Is probably the only character In the ENTIRE Hellaverse that I CANNOT stand. He's annoying, unentertaining, Overrated and has some of the most INSUFFERABLE defenders (Which what mostly ruined him for me). Not to mention that he looks absolutely ugly as hell and probably stinks like shit. The dude looks like he hasn't touched bath water since the the day he came out of the womb, His breath also probably smells RANCID

Probably explains why Husk was trembling on the floor after he was threatened In episode 5, Did you see how close Alastor was to Husk? The poor cat could probably smell the stench of 1 million carcasses that had been lathered In piss and left out In the sun for 4 days

The scene where Adam slashed him with his guitar and some of the songs were probably the ONLY good things about him.

Ok rant over, Slandering the deer Is healing for me 💙

[vintagestarlight45]

Watched Hazbin to see if if it was good or not and oh boy do I have something to say. Trigger warning for SA and abuse.

I absolutely HATE Angel Dust with a passion. I quite honestly hate the “If the genders were flipped” shit but honestly some cases need it.

I have NO idea how anyone’s says that Husker and Angel dust are an actual good couple. “I’m so glad they’re becoming canon! They’re such a wholesome couple!” Did we watch the same show? Where Angel repeatedly makes UNWANTED sexual advances to Husk. I repeat UNWANTED. Like if Husk was a woman you guys wouldn’t let that shit slide. I honestly don’t understand how people get so upset when others joke about Val’s behavior towards Angel but turn the other cheek when Angel does it to Husk. Like how do you only take SOME of the abuse seriously while laugh the rest off as cute couple shenanigans.

“Oh but they’re in hell!” So? For a show about redemption and bettering yourself and how you treat others this isn’t ideal. Angel never really (at least in the point in time I’m writing this or that I’m aware of ) properly apologizes. The fandom babies him and makes him seem helpless, which to a point he is. He sold his soul and shit, he can’t do anything about it really, but he isn’t in any way shape or form exempt from criticism due to that. His fans make constant excuses that wouldn’t cut it if the situation was even remotely different. If husk was a woman people would hate Angel sm faster. “He’s hyper sexual, he can’t help it!” Really? Your hyper sexuality doesn’t excuse anything. Like imagine “Sure officer I did keep making creepy jokes and shit but I’m hyper sexual! It’s ok!”

Yes they’re in hell. Yes no character is perfect. Yes he’s gonna have flaws and make mistakes. That doesn’t mean you have to baby him and make dog shit excuses for genuine wrongdoing. Not only that but hate on the female characters or brush them and their struggles aside and criticize them much harsher. Gay relationships, or queer for that matter get away with so much more stuff than they should purely due to that fact they’re queer sometimes. Especially in the hellaverse. Like I could do another rant on Stolitz or even Ozzie and Fizz (although theirs would be significantly smaller)

Sorry if this is messy I just genuinely had to rant

[miitopia-cake]

me looking for ace/aro characters: lets go gambling!

[character's sex repulsion is used for jokes] aw dang it

[character is put in sexual situations despite disliking it] aw dang it

[character's identity is ignored by fandom] aw dang it

[characters creators sexualize them] aw dang it

[aro character gets 'fixed' by true love] aw dang it

[aro/ace character is literally an animal] aw dang it

[creator messes up definition of asexuality] aw dang it

[characters asexuality is never brought up in media] aw dang it