#it is a safe space for those that like + consume problematic work as well so if you’re not okay with this then please don’t bother joining

[insomniiyac]

Hey adult TWST fans~!

Are you tired of looking for servers that aren’t riddled with minors and people looking to fight? Are you someone that just wants to vibe with likeminded individuals about these boys without judgement?

Well look no further, we got the perfect server for you! Check out TWST Underdark: a 20+ adult server!

We just wanna vibe, so please be on your best behavior!

[igotanidea]

Tired (cheshire verse) : Jason Todd x fem!reader

Still, a part of Cheshire!verse. Other parts are: Cheshire cat, That damn gala and Five years later (previous to Tired)

This story took a bit of a turn because of @miraculous-panic. You wanted to know what happened between Dick and reader, so there you go. that was not planned so thanks :D

So, long story short, my dead almost-boyfriend turned out to be not-so-dead real-time boyfriend

Crazy, right?

Happy ending for everyone, rose petals, doves and all that shit used at the end of any cliché rom-com.

Well.

It was not so simple.

Ever since Jason came back from the grave (which apparently was five years ago, he just simply forgot to leave a memo on that) he’s been acting…. Different. More violent, more aggressive, more impulsive I daresay. He completely let go of the old “no killing rule” and just went full on, dealing with the criminals in his own way.

Sure, neither Bruce nor Dick nor any other member of the batfamily approved of that and that was the reason he was cast out. Not that he cared. About them. It was teeny-tiny different with me. And after some time it actually started to get problematic.

I mean, how can you be the so-called hero and date an anti-hero? How can you (yes, I mean myself) work with the bats (fuck, Batman himself) and be ok with your boyfriend getting all bloody with the literal blood of people. (even if they’re the bad ones)? How can you deal with the fact that the same arms that gets to hold you every night some nights and hands that write love letters on your skin are also used to point a gun to someone’s head.

You can’t. Not in the long run.

So, given that, I tried to fight for him. I knew he was dealing with the anger issues, that the Lazarus Pit left him changed, but I refused to let it consume him. I was really doing everything. Never pushing him, just being there, showing him different ways, throwing hints to help him get back to the old ways. He never listened. Not that I blamed him after everything he’s been through.

Most of the times, I dealt with it by myself, but from time to time I just wasn’t able to process all those contradictions in me. I was becoming a fucking hypocrite, losing myself in  all this mess of vigilantism and relationship. Those were the times when I stayed at the manor with Dick, Tim and Damian, letting them help me with thoughts. Usually by distracting me. Dick would do his most crazy acrobatics in a show-off manner only to make me smile, Tim would talk about the random facts he found on the internet and Damian… well, Damian would just sit next to me, not saying a single thing, giving me space but just his presence was enough. Yeah, me and Damian had a very deep bond even though no one would guess it.

It was that one patrol with boys that got me spinning. We were doing our rounds in one part of Gotham, Bruce leading the operation, while Red Hood was riding solo on the other. It was like a race against time since we had to save some people taken hostage and exposed to some sort of enhanced neurotoxin (suck on that, Crane with your fear gas) which would soon turn them into a freaking zombie. Luckily, we were fast enough getting to the secret lab in time to turn the tables around and once again safe the day. Yay! Hurray! Bats to the rescue. But, it wasn’t really like that.

“Y/N?” Dick noticed me standing in the corner of the room, eyes fixed on one point in space, absentmindedly running my fingers against the counter full of some crazy medical accessories “Hey, are you all right?” his voice became concerned when he realized what might be going through my head.

“No.” I shook my head “No. I don’t think I am, Dick…..”

“You’re thinking ‘bout him, right? About Jason?”

“Yes… I….” I took a deep breath “I don’t know what I’m doing Dick. I don’t even know who I am anymore. I save people, but at the same time let them die, not stopping him. I stick to the moral code that Jay break every night. ….. I….. I……” I felt like I was suffocating

“Hey, hey. Breathe.” Dick reached an arm towards me and squeezed my hand gently “you’re spinning”

“How…. How can I not? the second I think about everything he’s been through all the rules and codes are becoming blurry. Fuck, I love him Dick…..”

“I know. And right now, I need you to calm down, ok?”

“I’m trying to, but……”

“Grayson. Y/L/N.” oh, thank God for Damian. His cold and collected self was like a heaven send. He tilted his head and narrowed his eyes at my shaking figure but did not say a word. He knew. “You’re staying at the manor tonight, Y/N.” this was not a question. Damian Al’ghul Wayne was way above asking.

“You know you are a tyrant, right Damian?”

“Yes.”

“Come on, Y/N.” where the hell did Tim came from “you know you shouldn’t be alone in a state like this. Remember what happened last time?”

“I’m sorry what exactly happened last time?” Dick was suddenly far more stern than before

“NOTHING! NOTHING! Don’t you dare saying a word, Tim!”

“We’re gonna find it  one way or another” Damian smirked and Dick scoffed.

“SHUT UP! Just shut up all of you! I’ll stay!” I cried out “you know I’ll stay…..” the second part was said in a softer manner “really, thank you for putting up with me.”

“Hey, anytime, sunshine” Dick smiled putting arm around me and leading me out to the exit.

***

Two hours later, I still could not sleep. Too many thoughts has been running thorough my minds. So, instead of laying I was in the kitchen, crouched on the barstool, elbows leaning against the counter and with the cup of chamomile tea in hands. I hated chamomile, but Alfred always said it helped you relax, so why not try?

“Why are you up?”

“Shit! Dick! I almost burned myself! We’re in the house you don’t need to sneak up on me!”

“Sorry” he flashed a smile “force of habit. Why aren’t you in bed? You look tired.”

“I am.” I sighed deeply “ my crazy brain however does not seem to be.”

“Do you want to talk about it?”

“What’s there to talk about? I’m trapped into one of the most cliché scheme. A hero falling for a villain.”

“Hm. I don’t know. Do you think you are a hero?” he laughed

“Dick….”

“Sorry, Y/N. Though I would make you smile.”

“Not this time, Boy wonder. Not really in the mood.”

“Sorry. But if you don’t want to talk, how about a hug from your favorite bat?”

“Do you think you are my favorite bat?” I raised an eyebrow

“I don’t think. I know. Now come here. “ he extended his arms and I was more than eager to dive in his embrace “does it make you feel better.”

“I don’t know. It definitely reminds me of our childhood times.  Those when I was still learning the vigilante shit and you were always there to protect me.” I muttered

“And I always will.” He assured “I won’t let anyone hurt you.”

“Do you have someone specific in mind?”  I couldn’t look him in the eyes, fearing the answer

“No. No one specific. Just anyone who would dare so.”

“Hate to break it to you, Dick, but I’m old enough to stand up for myself….”

“But….?”

“But it feels nice to have you.”

“You’re like my little sister, Y/N.” he ruffled my hair and I scoffed but smiled lightly

“Are you two comfortable?” a grumpy voice of another person who was apparently sleepless disturbed the moment of silence between me and Dick.

“How the hell did you get in?!” in a matter of second Damian was standing in the kitchen, followed closely by Tim, both of them with their stern face expression.

“Hello, Jason” Dick smiled

“I said….” Damian repeated only to be ignored once again.

“What the fuck are you doing with my girlfriend, Grayson?!”

 “Oh, that is just great” I hissed and rolled my eyes. The last thing I needed was possessive Jason, still in his Red Hood suit facing his brothers

“I think you should leave, Jason” Tim tried to take precautions to avoid bloodbath between his older brothers

“And why would I do that, huh?”

“Um. Cause you are not welcomed here?”

“Damian!” I hissed. That was harsh, even for him.

“I think we should all just calm down and …..”

“Cut it, replacement! Why is she here? Are you keeping her captive or something?”

“Now you’re just being paranoid, Jason.”

“Paranoid, sure. I finished ….. “ he shook his head not really wanting to finish this sentence “and came straight to her. Do you even realize how  I freaked out when you weren’t there?” his pained gaze landed on me “and then it clicked. You must be at the manor. So I came, and I saw you with Dick and …..”

“Ugh….” Damian hissed

“you know I was trying to make her feel better after she broke on the patrol! Because of you, you idiot” Dick hissed and took a few steps towards Jason so now they were angrily looking at each other

“Once again….ugh. What were you two doing?”

“ Talking!” I yelled and finally got their attention making the four boys quiet for a second. “we were talking. And then hugged. That’s it! You are all insane! Yes, Tim, you too! And now, if you all excuse me, I’m going to bed. I;m done with all of you. Have a good night, gentlemen.”

“Y/N….” Jace called to me, guilt and regret In his voice and in his whole posture

“No, Jace. I’m really, really tired. We’ll …. Talk tomorrow. Or not, I guess.” I looked onto the floor “and I’m pretty sure your yelling and screaming woke up Alfred. And possibly Bruce. So good luck with dealing with them.”

***

“Morning, Y/L/N”.

“Ah! Damian! What the fuck!” the youngest Wayne was standing right above me. It was definitely not how I expected to wake up.

“did you sleep well?”

“GET OUT!”

“You know, you should really answer your phone. It rang like twenty times in the last ten minutes. Bet it’s Todd.”

“Yeah, thanks for the head up, Damian.”

“You know, I’ll be more than glad to help you with that little problem with him….”

“I’m serious Damian, get out!”

“Fine, I’ll deal with him without asking you.”

I groaned. My head was killing me after everything that happened last night. All the emotions and doubts coming back. But, if Jason was blowing off my phone that means he sneaked past Bruce and no one got hurt in the process.

“Y/N?” he picked up after the first signal

“Were you expecting someone else?”

“No really, but with our line of work you can never be sure.” He chucked and that made me smile “Did you sleep well?”

“Someone made sure my night was quite eventful.”

“yeah, I’m… I’m sorry about that, love. I guess I got a bit carried away…” I could tell he was scratching his head in embarrassment

“A little?”

“Ok, fine, a lot! I’m sorry. Just seeing you with dick….”

“Jason.” I propped myself up and sat on the bed “come on. I’ve known him forever. He’s like a brother to me. You know that. Nothing could ever happen between us. I saw him in too many shaming moments. Did I ever  tell you about that one time I caught him trying yoga and not being able to untwist himself out of a very complicated asana?”

“You did. But I can never get enough of that” he laughed wholeheartedly “I’ll take every story like that.”

“As much as I love to hear you, Jay, I’m sure you didn’t call me to talk about Dick.”

“Oh, hell no. Out of everyone in that manor, you are the only one I’m interested in.” I felt a little blush on my cheeks “Hey, listen, Red cleared some business and is going to have a quiet night. I was thinking…. We haven’t seen each other a lot lately so maybe you could meet me at our rooftop?”

“We saw each other last night when you encroached the manor”

“You know what I mean”

“And you do realize it’s highly disturbing  when you talk about yourself in third person?”

“Precautions, honey. Are you absolutely sure it’s a safe line?”

“I was till now.”

“What changed?”

“I heard interference in the back, just give me a second to deal with it….”

I rushed out of my room (still in my pj) to Tim’s and after a little bangs and words spoken in angered voice was back on the line.

“Sorry, Jay. It was Tim, who apparently got bored. But he won’t be eavesdropping on us anymore.”

“What did you do to him?” Jason laughed

“Nothing permanent.” I shrugged even though he could not see it. “However, I think boys can do without me one night so I’d love to meet you. I missed you Jay.”

“I missed you too, baby.”

“And since when it’s our rooftop?”

***

Jason’s POV

I might have lied to her. I did not exactly secured the Red’s business. And now, when I was waiting for her with that helmet on I started to wonder if my goons people could do without me. But I promised her. I promised her some time alone and I wasn’t going to break it. She’s been neglected and abandoned by me way more than it should have happened. God, I did miss her. I missed making her smile, seeing her laugh. Just being with her.  It was like my entire being craved her, both physically and emotionally.

“Hey there, stranger.’ oh, there she was, also in her gear, landing softly and quietly on the roof behind me

“Hello, kitty. I’m sorry but I’m waiting for someone.” I smiled taking a step toward her

“Hm, really? Red Hood waiting for someone?” she raised an eyebrow “usually it’s the other way round. Must be someone special then."

“She is. She truly freaking is.” I grabbed her waist and pull her closer to me, breathing in her scent. I had no idea how she was doing it but she always smelled like the ocean. Fresh and intoxicating.

“So, it’s a she.” She hummed and sneaked her hands around me making me melt into her touch “Lucky one.”

“What about you,  Cheshie? Are you just wandering around out of loneliness?”

“Maybe. I mean, there is that special one, but we have been passing each other of late.” She pouted “he’s been occupied.”

“Sounds like a loser.”

“Nah. Just busy man with busy schedule. But he promised me he’ll be there tonight.”

“That’s no excuse. A girl like you deserve all the time in the world.” I removed my helmet staying only in the mask.

“Is that so?” she smiled almost unnoticeably.

“I’m sure.” I leaned in, our lips inched apart and I was just burning to kiss her, but she was still keeping her distance. I did not want to force anything, so just waited.

“How about we wait together than, Hood?” she moved slightly up and I took the hint.

“I can work with that.” Finally. Finally our lips met. Her soft one pressing against mine. Fuck! We’ve been kissing so many times before but every time if felt like the first one. She was intoxicating, a poison running in my veins. The kind of poison I never wanted out of my system. I needed more of her so I grabbed her chin lightly deepening the kiss and tightening the grip on her waist to pull her closer to my chest and further into my arms where she belonged. Soon enough my mouth moved to her neck biting on her soft spot.

“Ja….”

“Shhh, baby, use the code name.”

“Nah. I don’t think so” much to my surprise she  pushed my away. My boy wouldn’t like me to call someone else’s name. I bet your s/o wouldn’t either.”

“So, you’re the faithful one, huh?”

“It’s only fair to the person I’m in love with.”

“In love, huh? Lucky bastard.”

“Don’t know about it. He’s the type who can get any girl he wants. Maybe he’s just with me because of praxis.” She looked down, dispirited.

“Baby” I lifted her chin up “believe me, I only got eyes for you.”

“What happened to the code names?”  Y/N tilted her head in that cute way

“Fuck that. Don’t care anymore. Now, let’s get out of here. I promised you some good time, didn’t I?”

***

Holy shit, he lived up to his word giving me the best time ever.  All of his attention and affection I missed for so freaking long. His soft touches and lips lingering on my skin, kissing it from time to time.

Ok, I don’t know what you thought about, but being a vigilante and dating one messed up anti-hero make you enjoy little things.

So, during our time alone, those little moments we get to steal, we were just cuddling together, enjoying a good book. Nothing fancy, and yet it brought us closer together than anything else in the world. Jason was leaning on the bedframe in one of his safe housed, my head on his chest, eyes closed, legs intertwined, his right hand holding the book, while left traced patterns on my skin. We simply enjoyed each other presence and warm, not being Red Hood and Cheshire, just Jason and Y/N, our mask discarded and tossed somewhere on the floor. This may have not been the safest, but neither of us seemed to care.

Honestly, I have no idea how this peaceful evening/night turned into a soap opera. One moment I was falling asleep , feeling loved and secure in his arms and the second someone was banging on the door rushing inside.

“Roy?” Jason sprung out making sure not to drop me onto the floor in the process. “What the fuck?”

“Sorry, Jace. There’s an emergency. We need you like right now.”

“But….” He hesitated looking at me.

“Go! I’m serious. Go! I’ll wait here. Just…. please, don’t kill anyone. Please.”

“I love you, Y/n. “ he pulled me in and kissed me softly, his lips lingering on mine, not ready to let go “I’ll be back as soon as I can, I promise.”

***

He was back an hour later. With blood on his hands and it got me spinning the same way it did last night in the manor.  Only this time I decided to confront him about it. I should have predicted this would get angry very fast.

"But I fucking love you!"

"YOUR LOVE HURTS!" Oh, damn. I said it.

"Wha... What?" the brokeness on his face seemed to transpire straight into my heart. Just for a second I saw the same little boy I knew before. Little Jason, who craved love and affection and for some crazy reason could never get enough of it. All that shortage was still there.

"Your love.... hurts." I managed to say, but the last part was almost inaudible.

"Hm." he muttered acting so much like Bruce, quickly covering for his moment of weakness

"What?" there were so many words hidden behind that "one "hm" and I caught herself mentally preparing for a hit from him. It was coming.

"You're giving up on me then?" he hissed "you know, for someone who tried to be so different than Bruce and took so much fucking pride out of it, you two are awfully similar."

"Are we really?"

"You don't see it now. But he gave up on me after my death as well. Never fucking coming after Joker to revenge me. It was like....."

"Like he never wanted you." I finished looking straight into his eyes and that sparked something in him.

"'Cause you never really wanted me either, did you?" he hissed taking a few steps towards me and pushing me into the wall with all the force he could get. Which was a lot. I didn't even wince at the hit but my eyes grew wide "You were just playing around, ready to jump into Dick's bed, huh? Cause everyone wants a fucking hero!" he shook me violently.

"This is not fair, Jay. It's so not fair......" I whined. Now he was hurting me.

"Fuck!" finally he realised that his own anti-hero instincts were working against him. Against me. Against us, if there were even still us. Due to that realization he released the grip on my shoulders making me fall to the ground because my legs were shaking.

"You say it like I wasn't fighting for you for the last half a year. I did. You can't deny that."

"Y/N, I'm...."

"I know. You're sorry. That's the thing with you, isn't it? You do some stupid shit. You apologize. And then it starts again. I'm tired, Jason. I'm really, really tired. You dare to put the words in my mouth saying that I don't love you. That I don't think you're worth fighting for. So tell me, why am I not enough for you to go back to your previous self? Not the unhinged....."

"Monster?"

"I never said that." I looked down.

"You didn't have to."

"STOP TRYING TO GUESS WHAT I THINK!" I yelled like never before and took him by surprise. "If I didn't love you, If I thought you were a monster I would give up so long ago. But I didn't. Because I love you more than anything and you fucking know that!"

"And you know I love you Y/N. You do, right?"

"But we're not good for each other, apparently. And I....."

"For what it's worth, I never wanted to put you through it. It's just all this anger inside me" he cupped my cheek resting his forehead on mine. "You can't do it, can you?"

"No. No, I don't think I can."

"It's ok. I get it" his hand moved to the back of my head, the other resting on my waist pulling me closer.

"Do you really?"

"No."

I sighed deeply opening her mouth but he cut me before anything was actually said.

"Stay with me. Just tonight. Please."

"Jaybird......"

"Please. One last time."

"And then it's over?"

"And...." his voice broke and he had to pause before continuing "and then it's over."

***

Jason’s POV

I knew she wasn’t sleeping and neither was I. However, none of us dared saying a word to each other, instead choosing to lay in the bed in complete silence. She was the little spoon and I was holding her (or maybe to her) with desperation I’ve never experienced before. Please, don’t leave me. Please don’t go. I don’t want to be alone again.  but all those thoughts were selfish. She needed someone better. She deserved someone better. Someone who wouldn’t drag her through hell every night. Someone who would hold her gently, making her feel safe and taken care of. Someone who was not crazy and did not have Lazarus Pit in his veins. Someone nice. Aka some loser, who could never love her the way I did, but would keep her out of the trouble. Red hood, fuck – I was the rood hood! So, I was the one who would always bring trouble to her. Someone could kidnap her, hurt her, kill her, because of me. And what was even worse, she did not deserve to be dragged all over social media as the hero who gets involved with vigilante. The public would eat her alive for hypocrisy. And as much as I knew she wouldn’t say a word about how much that would be killing her inside, I needed to safe her from that.

But I still wanted her in my crazy, messed up life.

She was my lifeline and I loved her so fucking much.

I loved her brain and her body. Her hair and her slightly snub nose. Her hair and her eyes. Her soft skin under my fingers and the way it felt against mine. Her lips. Her sense of humor, her intelligence and the way she always made me feel loved. Even if I never deserved it. I loved the way she was bantering with demon and replacement showing her fluent sarcasm. I loved how she kept her cool and how collected she was during patrols. After all, I might have spied on her a few times. I loved how she was letting me hold her warm, soft body and snuggled into my chest. And now, I was about to lose it all. Loose her. Fuck. Fuck! FUCK!

***

I felt like crying, but parting was the right way to do. We tried to make it work and yet, failed. I couldn’t fall asleep again, instead focusing on his hands gently rubbing my skin and his unusually steady breath on my neck. Almost as if he was trying to convince me that everything was going to be fine. We were going to be fine without each other. Big fat lie.We both know this would leave a scar forever. Another one to add to the collection. We couldn’t be together but we also could not be apart.

Now that I said it, it seemed like we were replaying some crazy Shakespeare drama. Romeo and Juliet? Holy shit. If you cut that little romanticism part and the families who tried to keep young lovers apart everything fit. Ironically, even the dying part.

Jason’s breath hitched a bit and he held me closer as I closed my eyes. Please, don’t let me go. I begged silently in my mind. Please, fight for us. Fight for yourself. For…. Me. Sad truth however, he was the one who already gave up. Not me.

I don’t know how and when but we both feel asleep in each other arms. Maybe it was because it was still familiar. Thank god, Jason was far more exhausted than me so I woke up first. Otherwise we would get back into the same spinning circle of apologies, promises and hurt.

Being a vigilante I caught the moment instantly and used it to wriggle out of his arms. It was killing me. I was the only person around whom Jason was able to let his guard down and actually rest and now I was going to pull the rug from under him. From my boy.

 But he already knew I would.

I picked up my small bag, quickly gathering all the stuff and kissed the top of his head .

“I love you Jason Todd. No matter what I always will.” I whispered before turning around and sneaking out the window. I didn’t want to use the creeping door to avoid waking him and starting this whole circle of convincing again.

***

Third person POV

When he woke up she was already gone, the only sign she was real in the form of messy pillow and her lingering scent on the sheets.

“FUCK!” he groaned in frustration throwing a fist into the wall. He lost her. Again. This time probably for good.

[insomniac-ships]

hi! i have a few questions about proshipping.

what is it, exactly? most of the stuff i've found is from an anti perspective and i want to hear from a pro perspective

also, is it kind of like pro-choice where you can respect peoples right to do something while not doing it yourself? so like respecting people for reading/shipping whatever they want while you might not ship those kinds of ships/engage in the content?

like for me, my trauma definitely impacts the content that i engage in, but i understand that people deal with trauma in their own way and that can come in proshipping (not that everyone who is a pro shipper has trauma)

sorry if any of this is worded wrongly and/or offensively. thank you for taking the time to read this and if you answer this :)

Hello there, Anon! ♡ Questions are always welcome!

(Any instances of "you" are intended as a general "you", not directed at you in particular, anon!)

Proship is, at the very core, very simple!

Ship and let ship -> a similar enough idea to pro-choice, yes! It just means that you're allowed to ship things I personally dislike, and vice versa, as long as no one is being harassed or directly, intentionally, and maliciously harmed in the process.

Don't like? Don't read. (DL;DR) -> if you know you don't like a trope/ship/character/etc., don't go out of your way to search for it, and certainly don't go around leaving nasty comments on stuff you don't like. Just close the tab, or hit the back button, and be on your way.

Dead Dove: Do Not Eat (DDDNE or just dead dove) -> similar to DL;DR, but with emphasis on tagging. Essentially, it means "read the tags and don't be surprised when you encounter said tagged topics in this particular work". This goes both ways, for author/artist and for reader/viewer. Authors and artists have the responsibility to tag their works accurately and thoroughly, and provide content or trigger warnings when necessary. Readers and viewers have the responsibility to fully read the provided tags, filter out topics they find upsetting or triggering, and to know their own limits. In the event that someone is triggered or squicked out by something they didn't realize would be an issue, it's also their responsibility to take a step back and practice some self care while they calm down. ♡

The Golden Rule -> simply, treat others how you would want to be treated. This should apply to everyday life, as well as when interacting with folks in fandom spaces.

A few more things!

× Proship, as a stance, is also inherently anti-harassment. No one should be harassed, ostracized, or abused because of their likes and dislikes regarding fiction. (However, I'm also not naive enough to believe that no proshipper has ever harassed an anti. No community is flawless, and I don't doubt we've had our share of dirtbags.)

× Not all proshippers like "problematic" ships. We all have different limits and boundaries when it comes to what we enjoy and what we are squicked out by.

× Creating or consuming dead dove content as a tool for coping with trauma doesn't work for everyone. But for those it does help, it can provide a sense of control over traumatic situations, offer a safe and controlled means of catharsis, assist in recontexualizing trauma, and help people connect with other survivors and find a sense of community. Sometimes it's nice to know you aren't alone in your experiences. ♡

× I have never personally seen a proshipper say with their whole chest that "fiction doesn't affect reality". What I have seen said is "fiction is not reality, don't treat it as such" and "fiction does not impact reality on a 1:1 ratio". Reading, writing, drawing, thinking, or creating something fictional is not the same thing as actually Doing The Thing in real life.

Also, just to clear it up: proship does not mean "problematic ship", despite what many antis like to say. The prefix "pro-" is just the opposite of the prefix "anti-".

This, uh... got longer than I intended. Sorry about that! I hope this answers your question, and if you have anything else to ask, don't hesitate! ♡

And if other proship folks have anything to add, please do!

[khepiari]

Hello, children of lusty void. I need to vent about censorship nonsense brewing up!

[first published as note on a fic of mine that has age gap and child marriage as the plot of romance, this here is an updated version of the author’s note for more people.]

Before the TiffnanyG election debacle, my OTP, and my fellow OTP fandom had been caught between pro-ship vs antis and the whole age gap is problematic idiocy.

Recently, I came across same problems on other fandoms where posts and accounts were created that have been exclusively targeting shippers, creators and consumers on Twitter and Instagram and Tumblr which have “problematic ship” dynamics namely characters with age gaps or have NSFW and other such things.

Look if you have faced bullying because of your ship preference, do not engage for your own mental well-being, report the account, share the account details with your fellow friends from the same ship fandom and do a mass reporting, and don't stop at that, send email to your respective social media companies and take screenshots at every step of it and keep it. In case you find no action has been taken, you can use the screenshots to make your case stronger when you re-report.

Shipping is a personal choice and no one has the right to ship-shame you, if these bullies can't distinguish between fiction and fictional characters and reality, then they are definitely in need of classes on critical reading and thinking. Please read this to understand what Proship means!

Fandom is meant to be a safe space you curate by your own choice where people with similar interest communicate, create, collaborate and fiction is the best way to explore one's ideas; sometimes those ideas can be cringy, problematic, vile or outright scary and that's okay and that’s why Dead Dove: Do Not Eat exists. Because we are channelling our ideas, thoughts and traumas and curiosities and thriving towards a path of self awareness with help of our fan art, fanfic, fic prompts, podfic, fmvs, amvs, animatics, songfic, character role-playing, cosplaying, writing threadfic or just engaging in speculative discussion or just vibing.

Thinking is not a crime, writing or creating creative work is not a crime. As long as you do not harm people in real life or practice the evil elements of your imagination in reality; you are fine as a person. Trust me; my mind is a wonderland of gore and angsty stories where I want characters to burn someone or declaw an animal for the story I am telling, and I have never gone and tied up a lover of mine with leather belts and poured burning liquid wax on them just because I imagined it and assumed it is a language of love, and I have many pets as well whom I will never hurt.

We should never shame shippers or fangirl, fanboys, fanperson for their OTP or headcanons, they are harming no one, if you don't like something, just ignore it!

Before ao3 existed, reading fanfics on Fanfiction dot net was playing a Russian Roulette. All the fics basically came with K, K+, T, M, MA, and it came with a warning Don’t Like it Don’t Read it! And then came the purge, overnight MA content was gone! And worse things happened, people stopped rating their insane stories! Instead of preventing people from reading triggering stuff with the rating, the rating system was used to censor people out and their work deleted!

Having Ao3’s tagging system is a privilege that has been built on years of trial and errors and loss of many stories! We are literally standing on a graveyard of purged and exiled stories! And it is a fanperson/fandom’s duty to make sure that you select your tags wisely and read the tags and story summary. Even after that, if people choose to violate the barricades put to protect them, why should the creators be blamed? [Read this]

And it is an awful and unhealthy attitude to engage with fanworks with so much hate, why would you waste your time hounding people of ships, ficwriters or fanartists you don't like? You cannot change the world with meanness. And how is sending CSEM (child sexual exploitation material) against Ao3 volunteers helping the cause of your protest?

I can understand why many of them oppose and demand content moderation, because of age difference, complicated and complex topics that need supervision and proper understanding before a person delves into them, and of course the NSFW stuff. First, they are fictional. Second, each creator changes or adds their own details in their creation.

Each writer can deal with age gap stories or any kind of topic the way they interpret it! Each artist will put their own twist to NSFW. Soulmate AUs sound loveliest, but they can be a horror story of about predestination vs free will! Yes, Soulmate AU horror story can make people uncomfortable because of the way it is written. Similarly, body possession trope can be a story of transition and self acceptance instead of presenting it as an invasion of body, or it can be written as a story of change!

Context brings clarity. Proship and Antis are by-product of same fandom. So how does these divides crop up? It is simple, people interpret things from different contextual standpoints. Many factors play role into the whole process of thought making; hence the terminology Thought Process. No two minds think the same because no two minds process the same information in the same way. Two people from the same fandom might come to a same fanfic; one for SMUT, while another comes to elongate the established emotional relation they have with the story. One can hate the fanfic for being NSFW and feel it is a corruption of their beloved story, and second others will love it for the NSFW because the OG Work didn’t have anything, and they wanted to read it. Both can be right and both can be wrong at the same time. Contextual reading/consumption is common, it is critically thinking and examining stories what makes aware brains. And by principle I am against censorship, because someone’s world view or imagined discomfort should not take away someone else’s right to express. Even if I don’t like a work of fiction, I will defend its existence. Words on paper [I mean all mediums] don’t hurt people, people hurt people.

Difference lies in how a story or art work is created, and if I had written a Soulmate AU Horror Story with tinted lenses, it definitely could be a read as a predatory story. I understand the concern about running into things that are “bad” in fiction! But not every work of fiction owes people comfort. We write the stories that we think needs to be told. Everyone has a right to be concerned, hence we think like this— “If we don’t let 10 years old into an A+ film in theatre, why should they be exposed to A+ stuff in words and artworks?”

Hence, the tags have been put up for better navigation. Hence, we have warnings and rating on Netflix screen when we turn on Squid Games. You cannot read a Mature story on Ao3 without consenting to read it. Many will argue —“But the trigger warnings and tags were not properly done.” No, you can’t expect every author to tag every possible thing that can trigger a reader. The trigger warnings are in place to give you a heads-up, a moment to understand what you are getting into, and should be used it as indication. No writer or creator wants to hurt you, we all write and create something because we love and want to share joy. How are people reacting to books in real life? Do you think Little Red Riding Hood should have a trigger warning for people with Lupophobia or Thanatophobia because Red Riding gets eaten by the wolf? And what about its rendition at the hands of Angela Carter, where beastiliy is written and printed in book form? Shape of Water has Monsterfucking, people knew about a monster from teaser, but not about the fucking. Like life, literature [including fanfics] are full of surprises, and we might not like many of them, it is part of growing up not just 16 turning 17 then 18, then 19; no you have to face shitty stuff your entire life because growing up is painful. And not liking something is a natural reaction, sometimes the dislike is overwhelming, and turns into rage and revulsion and yet you should not demand censorship!

Censorship kills creativity. If we give an inch to the voices of “but what about this and this group of people who suffered?” we open a crack to a system that is meant to preserve. The group who suffered, suffered at the hands of real physical people. A book murdered no one until it was held by a hand that saw it as a weapon, similarly reading/watching a “vile” fanfic or fanart could damage no one in real life, because there is no direct action and reaction that left consequences. Archive of Our Own is an ARCHIVE. It is meant to digitally preserve everything ever created in it, and slowly they are bringing in other fan works that are in danger of extinction as more and more people are capitalizing on the internet like it is real estate. And Ao3 was never meant to be the only fanspace! Tumblr used to be one, look what the purge did! When you implant censorship, you are pushing creators who are already marginalized to the extremes end of the internet. As Kis aka blow_me_a_kiss on Twitter said, Ao3 is not a business that needs a manager for people to complain about every time they run into things that don’t align with certain world views, it is a collective. This is how things and institutes and systems are meant to run publicly! You have to learn to curate your own reading/entertainment lists, and you really can’t appreciate the good without having your face slammed by the bad. Why should you or anyone need a pre-formed judgement about things they consume; reviews, kudos, comments, praises are all there to show what people felt after coming in contact with a creation, it is not a universally common experience! Hence, some people love Inception and hail it as masterpiece, while some people like me find it very basic storytelling. You have to have learn to face the bad! You must. Censorship is not about protecting the vulnerable! It never was, censorship has always been about exercising power over the vulnerable one. It takes a lot of courage and time for creators to present their beloved works to the world. Remember what happened to Isabal Fall? All she did was write a story, and people’s inbuilt fears and apprehensiveness turned into bullying which they projected on her, and she was forced to out herself! The same happened to Becky Albertalli author of Simon Vs The Homo Sapien Agenda.

I request you all not to engage with so much hate, I have been shipper/fanperson since I was 13 and been active on internet since 18! I began working on fics when my first ship was a rare pair, I am 29 today, and it is one of the biggest ships; biggest queer ships in my fandom!

Because of this OTP, I have made many friends and read amazing fictions and seen glorious fanarts and doujinshi and watch cosplayers do beautiful concept photography.

Please do not be mean and rude and do not bully people because you don't like something.

Death threats are not cool, they hurt, and can suck away a joy of participation from people. Even if the account you are bullying has an anime/manga image with no real name, there is a real person behind the screen.

Be kind.

Be kind.

Be fucking aggressively kind!

[sennqu]

every now and again i debate whether i should put a "minors dni" on my blog because i do talk about pretty adult stuff sometimes. but then i remember being a bullheaded minor who clicked "yes i'm 18" on fanfic warnings well before i was of age, lurked in forums definitely not meant for kids, etc etc. like, no "minors dni" would have stopped kid me either. so it would be kind of... pointless to try to make at least this space a "no kids zone" because i know from experience it doesn't really work if the kid really wants to lurk or engage with the content. edit: especially if one can't put those age warning pop-ups lmao

like, i can't promise my blog as a safe space for others, because it's my safe space. but i can't really keep anyone who wants to interact away, unless they do something i don't like and i block them for it anyhow. and even then, people can still work around that.

but what i can do is at least provide a safe way to interact with this blog (read: blog description) and hope that others respect and follow that at least. it's a less restricting policy that i hope still makes others (not just minors) feel like they have agency and feel respected.

like, i can't stop other people from reading or consuming adult/problematic media. i'm not going to directly talk to a minor about these things, but i am going to talk about "adult stuff" on my blog. because it's my blog.

what i may be changing in the future though is stop directly linking to mature fic? still thinking on whether that's a good policy though. because it's like... people can still lie online. like, would it be better to just link to stuff as i talk about them along with the content warning? so at least i wouldn't have to interrogate anyone who wants a link. and people wouldn't have to ask? idk yet.

[willmike-what]

What in the victim-blaming? This has to be bait, there is no way you actually think like this. Nobody is advocating to bully antis, unprompted or not, but their WHOLE DEAL is hurting people, and I'm not going to lay down and take it quietly. NOBODY should, and you're a dick for turning this around on victims and villainizing us. Responding to abuse is NOT the same as bullying.

Antis are abusers, by their very nature. That's what an anti IS. If they don't go after people? Then they aren't an anti. It's about the behavior, not the viewpoint. You can hate whatever problematic content you want and still be proship. What makes someone in anti is the abusive way they treat people who DO like those things, not just how they themselves feel about it. You can't misdefine a group to justify talking down to the victims of that group.

You're just proving my point that you care more about "making proshippers look good" than you do about the safety of the actual people in online spaces, including proship ones. You are prioritizing the feelings of abusers over the safety of victims, and acting morally superior to those of us who have enough of a spine to actually DEFEND victims like ourselves. You are vile for that.

Really, no one? Not a single proshipper has ever told an anti to off themselves, or even once tried to bully them off of tumblr? I care about victims and I understand them never wanting to talk to their abusers. But, again if we want to see change and I’m not even talking about the community, the internet would straight up be a better place if everyone was nicer and open minded.

Yes there will be terrible people and innocent people will be abused unfortunately. And we need to help the ones in need of it. I myself cannot offer that help personally. This topic isn’t “I care about antis so much more than victims” this topic is “Help the people falling down a dangerous mindset, instead of letting them lock themselves in an echo chamber”

I want everyone to be safe, talking it out with people and letting them understand their wrongdoings is in the long run is a good thing.

I don’t understand where you get that I don’t care about victims, I do care about them. I’m not asking victims, I’m asking the community to be a community. And I fundamentally disagree with your thoughts on what an anti is. An anti is someone who is against proshippers and problematic media, they don’t have to be abusers, or doxxer’s or anything like that. They just have to be against them and the works.

Just like proshippers, they don’t have to be nice people, but they have to be okay with problematic media. They can be awful as well. But they’re also against antis.

But my point is that if we can show antis that we aren’t condoning what we consume then we can stop potential death threats, doxxing and harassment. And all it takes is not being a terrible person to everyone around you.

It boils down to: Treat others how you want to be treated.

[solidsurfacepro]

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Corian Malaysia

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One-Wall Kitchen

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kitchen top Malaysia

Galley Kitchen

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[phoenix-is-the-hottest-thing]

hiya! before i begin, i would like to just mention that this ask is entirely in good faith, so sorry if i say anything upsetting, its not on purpose!

but basically, i wanted to clear a few things up about the proshipping post! since my whole fandom experience i have been mainly in antishipper circles, but im critically pro-kink, pro-sex, etc. im also not against consuming "problematic" things as long as its not blatant glorification or encouraging people to do that stuff. would that technically make me neither an anti nor a proshipper? sorry if this ask comes off as annoying, im genuinely curious!

it makes your moral code aligned with what most "proshippers" think is fine, actually. you don't have to pick a label or anything, but like... yeah that's roughly what people who identify as such think.

as a side note. when I'm told i'm "promoting" or "supporting" bad stuff i usually go to the extreme and ask "there's fics telling you to vote for the incest party in the elections??" because I feel like people are hella conflating political propaganda with kink writing, which is... insane? like, when you look at it this way, it's insane right? who would benefit from that, pornhub? i don't think there's a pornhub conspiracy.

Ahem.

I have genuinely never seen good faith fic or fanart that actually intended to make people want to do anything to real people. The closest I can think of to such a thing is like, BDSM fics that go out their way to explain what the culture is and why it's not evil/mean/etc, which, honestly, is super fair.

imo it's a bit of a given? Unless the writer is EXTREMELY unself-aware, which is a different issue, the appeal of a ""problematic"" work is gonna be that it's... well, stuff you can't actually do irl. Like, that's the whole point. That's WHY it's fun. if the reader chooses to go "omg i wanna try it" that is actually the reader's idea and responsibility! all I can do is wish them a safe, sane and consensual time.

This whole anti thing, it's kinda like those guys telling women to cover up because they're "asking for it". It's the same culture— that the tempted isn't fault for not resisting their own damn impulses, it was the hot stuff ALL ALONG, plotting to make them do evil stuff by existing and being seen.

Newsflash, this is bullshit

And, AGAIN? Proshipper does not even mean person who writes weird shit. It's just people following the old "live and let live" positivity credo. I sure as hell don't want to spend my life fighting for how my personal comfort and views trump other people's boundaries, so I'm not an anti, simple as that. I'd also like them to just let me enjoy what I am okay with. yes this is why i loathe DNIs being everywhere, it's a constant pressure

Oh dear I went on a whole ramble there. anyway

On a more personal level: anon, if you're genuinely happy with your anti circles, it's probably fine, but.

If you EVER feel like you have to hide who you are or what you think from them in order to fit in, run like hell, okay? That's not healthy. You can always find more friends, but you can't rebuild your self-esteem or mental health as easily.

I'm saying this because there's a lot of toxicity in anti circles, tho mostly the more extreme ones, so if you're ever afraid of saying what you're thinking it's not a healthy space.

[itsclydebitches]

How do we handle art made during times were everyone was problematic? Should we ban old offensive art? I've seen birth of the nation. It's as racist as people say, but still a important film for cinema history. Snow White was 14 while the prince is 31. Tons of propaganda and racist depictions exited in early cartoons. Lovecraft made a new horror genre, but was very racist by today standards. Is it wrong to sell those or make them easily available? Do we just use disclaimers?

A peer of mine once summed up this issue in a helpfully succinct way: “My daughter really wants to read Little House on the Prairie so I’m taking time to talk to her about the racism in it.” Now, this woman has a doctorate in English so she’s well versed in the impact fiction can have and I personally agree that education is the best way to go about this. Her parenting technique (and the much longer conversation we had about it) acknowledges a couple of things: 

Straight up denying access is never the way to go, both because that feeds into censorship (who gets to decide what’s bad “enough” to withhold?) and, frankly, the more you tell people they can’t engage with something the more they’ll want to. Saying “There’s no circumstance in which you’re ever allowed to read this” doesn’t help anyone

Ignoring such stories doesn’t help anyone either. As you say, a hundred years from now we’ll have currently beloved stories that are now unacceptable, so beyond acknowledging that everything has the potential to be problematic and we can’t simply forget about huge swaths of our culture, that culture itself is important - even the bad parts. History is important. Not to get all cliche, but those who don’t learn history are doomed to repeat it. Racism, ableism, homophobia, etc. all exist in our fiction and moving forward doesn’t mean pretending that those stories never existed by hiding them away, but rather acknowledging that problem overtly as a way to say, “We can’t do that anymore.” That’s how people learn - especially kids - and that’s most safely done through something like a novel 

That learning requires overt education. Teach people to think critically about the media they consume and listen to different perspectives on it. Note that my peer doesn’t just let her daughter read this series, she does so with plans to discuss the problems she already knows are in the text 

All that being said, giving kids access to these books doesn’t necessarily mean we should continue to uphold those books in places like the classroom. There is a very complicated conversation going on regarding which books are worth giving our limited time to. Reading a racist book might teach a student something, but it’s better to simply give them access to books by black authors and have that conversation alongside the benefit of the non-racist literature itself. As said, deciding which texts are still worth our educational time is a huge conversation and everyone has a different opinion about whether what the literature might otherwise provide is worth its problems. That’s not something I alone can decide

(As a non-literature example, we’re seeing this now with BLM: there’s a massive difference between acknowledging Columbus in something like a history book and keeping a statue that acts as a means of upholding/praising him. Books work in a similar manner. Having them remain accessible in bookstores/a library is not the same thing as upholding/praising them in a classroom. Putting the books in that space and in that context presents them in a more positive light than many are comfortable with.) 

However, if you do continue to teach such books you (again) want to have those conversations - which includes letting students be upset about this. Don’t tell the woman in your class that she shouldn’t be pissed off over how misogynistic a text is. Don’t tell a queer student their reading of a text isn’t possible. I believe that it’s often less about what we read than how we read it. If a student despises a text and thinks it was a waste of time... that’s the spark of a very important conversation. Teasing out the “why” of “I hated it” teaches just as much as teasing out the “why” of “I loved it.” Of course, there’s also mental health to consider. As said, there are texts we may not want to teach anymore. There are texts you’ll want to warn people about before they buy it in a bookstore. There are texts someone may need to step away from halfway through reading it... these are all things that need to be negotiated on an individual basis 

Finally, not all texts are the same. A Disney film where the ages aren’t obvious (Snow White) isn’t the same thing as a text actively grappling with pedophilia (Lolita). In a world where “everything is problematic” it’s important to make those distinctions because though every story will have its flaws, those flaws are not made equal. Acknowledging that is necessary for having those conversations and having them mean something. Like the white person going, “Everyone has to deal with hard stuff in life!” while the black person is trying to talk about institutional racism, pretending that all texts’ problems are on an even level doesn’t do us any good 

[phynali]

Canonization and Fandom Purity Culture

I wrote a 1k-word twitter thread (as proof that I am Not made for Twitter and it’s goddamn 240-character limit) and am pasting it here with edits and updates (it’s now 2k words). 

I have thoughts to share (which I know have been stated more eloquently before by others) about this trend of demanding/obsessing that certain ships become "canon" and how it overlaps with the rise of fandom purity culture.

Under the cut.

Here in 2021 there is a seemingly large and certainly loud and active contingent of online fandoms who desire (or even demand) "canon validation" for a given interpretation of a source material. This is more true with shipping than anywhere else.

First, it is important to note that the trend is not limited to queer ships or to any single fandom. In the past few years I've seen it for Riverdale, Voltron, Supernatural (perhaps most extreme?), The 100, etc., and less recent with the MCU, Sherlock, Teen Wolf, Hawaii 5-0, etc. It is a broad trend across ships, fandoms, and mediums.

So if it is more common for queer ships, it is hardly unique to them. Similarly, pretending that it is about queer representation is a clever misdirect to disguise the fact that it is most often about ships and shipping wars. If you ever need proof of that, consider that a character can be queer without being in a given relationship or reciprocating another character's affections. Thus a call for more/better queer rep itself is very different than a call for specific ships to be made canon.

Also note that when audiences frame it as wanting to recognize a specific *character* as queer, it is almost always in the context of a ship. Litmus test: would making that character queer but having them *explicitly reject* the other half of the ship be seen as a betrayal?

(Note: none or this is to say we shouldn't push for more queer rep and more *quality and well-written* queer rep! Just that that isn't what I'm talking about here, and not what seeking canon validation for a specific interpretation or a specific ship is almost ever about.)

Why does this matter?

the language of representation and social justice should not be co-opted to prop up ship wars

it is reciprocal with a trend toward increasing toxicity in transformative fandom spaces

Number 1 here is self-explanatory (I hope). Let's chat about 2.

Demands for canon validation correlate with a rise in fanpol / fandom purity culture. What is fandom purity culture (and fandom policing)? This toxic mentality is about justifying one's shipping preferences and aiming to be pure (non-problematic) in your fictional appetites regarding romance and sex.

Note that this purity culture is so named as it arises linearly from American Protestantism, conservative puritanical anxiety around thought crimes, and overlaps in many ways with terf ideologies and regressively anti-kink paradigms.

It goes like this: problematic content is "gross" and therefore morally reprehensible. Much like how queer sex/relationships get labelled as "gross" (Other) and thus morally sinful, or how kink gets labelled as "harmful" and thus morally wrong. The Problematic label is applied by fanpol to ships with offset age or power dynamics, complicated histories, and anything they choose to label as "harmful". As such, they would decry my comparison here to queerphobia itself as also being harmful, because their (completely fictional) targets are ~actually~ evil.

(The irony of this is completely lost on them).

This mode of interacting with creative works leaves no room to explore dark or erotic themes or dynamics which may exist in fiction but not healthily in reality. Gothic romance is verboten. Even breathe the word incest and you will be labelled a monster (nevermind Greek tragedy or GoT).

As with most puritanical bullshit, fanpol ideology only applies these beliefs to sex and never to violence/murder/etc, proving what lies at its core. It also demands its American-based values be applied to all fictional periods and places as the One True Moral Standard. It evangelizes – look no further than how these people try to recruit others to their cause, aim to elevate themselves as righteous, and try to persuade (‘save’) others from their degenerate ways of thinking. 

“See the light” they promise “here are our callouts and blog posts to convince you. Decry your past sins of problematic shipping, be baptized by our in-group adulation and welcome, and then go forth and send hate to others until they too see the light.” In many ways “get therapy” by the antis is akin to “I’ll pray for you” by the Christian-right (and ultimately ironic).

(Although it has been pointed out to me that these fans are likely not themselves specifically ex-evangelicals, but rather those who have brushed up with evangelical norms and modes of thinking without specifically being victims of it. In many ways they are more simply conservative Christian in temperament and attitude without necessarily being raised into religion by belief).

What this has to do with canon validation is that these fans look to canon for approval, for Truth. On the one hand, if it is in the canon then it must be good / pure or at least acceptable. The authority (canon) has deemed it thus. It is safe and acceptable to discuss and to enjoy watching or consuming. In this way, validation from canon means a measure of safety from being Bad and Problematic. 

For example, where a GoT fan could discuss Cersei/Jaime's (toxic, interesting) dynamic in depth as it related to the canon, fans who shipped Jon/Sansa (healthy, interesting) were Gross and Bad. The canon as Truth provided a safety net, a launch point. "It's GRRM, not me, who is problematic." It wasn’t okay to ship the problematic bad gross incest ship, but it being in the canon material meant it was open for discussion, for nuance, for “this adds an interesting layer to the story” which is denied to all non-canon ships labelled as problematic.

(Note: there are of course people who have zero interest in watching GoT for a whole slew of very valid reasons, including but not limited to the incest. That’s a different to this trend. A less charged example might be The Umbrella Academy, where a brother canonically is in love with his sister and antis still praise the show, but if you dare to ship any of the potential incest ships then you are the one who is disgusting).

On the other hand, a very interesting alternate (or additional) explanation for this phenomenon was raised to me on twitter. (These ideas aren’t mine originally, but I wholly endorse them as a big part of what is likely going on): Namely, as with authoritarian individuals in general, they see themselves as right and correct, but the canon (which has not yet validated their ship) is not correct, and is in fact problematic, and so they can save the canon from itself.

As mentioned, these fanpol types see their interpretation as Good and Pure. So if they can push (demand, bully) the canon into conforming to their worldview and validating their interpretation, then they have shown the (sinful) creators the light and led them to the righteous path. This only works if the canon allows itself to saved though, otherwise the creators remain Evil for spurning them.

How is this different from fans simply hoping for their ship to be canon?

For a second here, let’s rewind to the 90s (since Whedon has been in the news recently). This “I want it to be canon” thing isn’t 100% new, of course. We saw this trend then for the show Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but it was different then. At the time, fans who hoped for a ship to be canon might have been cheering for a problematic one to begin with (Buffy/Spike). So shipping was still present, minus vocal fanpol.

(And Buffy fans learned that canon validation...can leave a lot to be desired. A heavy lesson was learned about the ways that fan desires can play out horrifically in canon, and how some things are best left out of the hands of canon-writers).

These days, this is still largely true. Many fans hope for their ships to go canon, as they always have. There are tropes like “will they/won’t they” that TV shows may even be designed around, which a certain narrative anticipation and a very deliberate build up to that.

But while shipping *hopes* occur for many fans, almost all ships fans that *demand* to go canon and obsess over are now the ones deemed as Unproblematic, or as Less Problematic. I’m talking here about the ships that aren’t necessarily an explicit will/won’t they dynamic but do have some canon dynamic that leads them to being shipped, but which the creators aren’t necessarily deliberately teasing and building up a romantic end-game for.

These ships often have fans who are happy to stick to fandom, but there has also been a huge uptick in the portion of fans who are approaching shipping with an explicit lens of “will they go canon?” and “don’t you want them to be canon?” and now even “they have to go canon” and “the canon is wrong if they don’t make this ship canon”, to a final end-point of “if the ship doesn’t go canon, the source material is Wrong and Bad.”

These latter opinions are the one we see more by extreme fans (‘stans’), hardcore shippers, but especially by fanpol-types, the ones who embrace fandom purity culture at least to some extent.

Why them?

In pushing for canon validation, fanpol types seek to elevate their (pure) interpretation of canon. As mentioned above, it’s validation of their authority, a safety-net, and a way to save the canon from itself if only they can bully the canon into validating their right and good interpretation. 

There’s also another reason, which is that canon validation is a tool to bludgeon those seen as problematic. They can use it to denounce other (problematic) ships as Not Being Canon and therefore highlight their own as Right and Good, because it is represented in the True Meaning of the Work.

Canon validation then is a cudgel sought by virtuous crusaders to wield against their unclean enemies. It is an ideological pursuit. It is organised around identity and in groups sometimes as insular as cults.

How does this happen?

Fanpol tend to be younger or more vulnerable fans, susceptible to authoritarian manipulators. As many have highlighted before, authoritarian groups and exclusionary ideologies like terfs are very good at using websites like tumblr to mobilize others around their organizing beliefs. Fanpol tend to feel legitimate discomfort, but instead of taking responsibility for their media engagement, ringleaders stoke and help them direct their discomfort as anger onto others; “I feel ashamed and uncomfortable, and therefore you should be held accountable for my emotions.” Authoritarian communities endorse social dominance orientations, deference to ringleaders, and obedient faith to the principles those ringleaders endorse.

As these fans attach more and more of their identity to a given media (or ship), and derive more and more validation and more of their belongingness needs from this fanpol community, they also become more and more anxious about being excluding from this group. This is because such communities have rigid rules and very conditional bases for social acceptance. Question or "betray" the organizing ideology and be punished or excommunicated. If that is all you have, you are left with nothing. Being labelled problematic then is a social death.

What this means is that these fans cannot accept all interpretations of a media as equally valid: to do so Betrays the ideology. It promises exclusion. And, in line with a perspective around ‘saving’ canon and leading others into the light – forcing and bending the canon to their will is what will make it Good (and therefore acceptable to enjoy, and therefore proof of them as righteous by having saved others). As was also pointed out to me on twitter, endorsement from canon or its creators also satiates that deep need they have for authority figures to approve of them.

Due to all of this, these fans come to obsess over canon validation of their own interpretation. In a way, they have no other option but to do so. They need this validation -- as their weapon, as their authority, as their safety net, as their approval, as their evangelical mission of saviorship.

Canon validation is proof: I am Good. I am Right(eous). I am Safe.

(In many ways, I do ache for some of these people, so wrapped up in toxic communities and mindsets and so afraid to step out of line for fear of swift retribution, policing their own thoughts and art against the encroaching possibility that anything be less than pure. It’s not healthy, it’s never going to be healthy.)

In the end, people are going to write their own stories. You are well within your rights to critique those stories, to hate them, to interpret them how you will, but you can never control their story (it's theirs).

Some final notes:

This trend may be partially to do with queer ships now being *able* to go canon where before so no such expectation would exist. Similarly, social media has made this easier to vocalize. Still, who makes these demands and the underlying reasons are telling. There are also many legitimate critiques of censorship, queerbaiting (nebulous discussions to be had here), and homophobia in media to be had, and which may front specific ships in their critique. But critique is distinct from asking that canon validate one's own interpretation.

[shinythinx]

PSA to all anti-shippers ❗

CW: mention of in*cest, mention of age gap relationships

This post is inspired by drama in Prodigal Son fandom, or in other words: attacks on Malcolm/everybody shippers.

I swear I am gonna start throwing potatoes at God if I'll read ONE MORE TIME that pson fandom in unproblematic. Because, ma'dudes-- we have so many problems.

And Malcolm/everyone shippers are not it, no. Antis are.

The fact I ship something doesn't make me a bad person!

Suspens of disbelief goes long way, including morality. Would I ever develop romantic feelings to any of my family member? Of course not! Does it mean I can't enjoy well written in*cest? Hell no! Have you read mythology?

The emotional anguish of characters knowing it's bad is where the appeal lays. Not every in*cest ship is Game of Thrones bad writing. What has me excited in those cases is - what will creator do with a plot for this sick concept to work? 👀

When it comes to age gap, shipping with father figure in particular (or any other case with power imbalance)... You see- feelings are messy, but inspiring. If a writer wants to play with that, twist and exploit paternal love into something else? Make younger character pained for having the wrong feelings for their role model? It's their creative choice, not a testament to what kind of person they are.

And flash news! 💥 You don't have to read fics with ships that make you uncomfortable. AO3 tags are crystal clear, aren't they?

You can be respectful!

I know, wild! The approach of antis is the only toxic thing in this whole situation. There are threads telling who to block just because they ship certain characters, more some - they include people that are their friends. That's childish, not a help to create a safe space oneself.

Let me give you an example... I know for a fact I have a mutual who has in*cest blacklisted. And that's fine! I love them, I support them and I respect them. So if I was to reblog something I tag it accordingly so they wouldn't see it. CW and TW are in the internet space for a reason.

Another example - I had made anti-Eve Blanchard post, with receipts why I dislike the character. And I fucked up! Mea culpa, I tagged the post #Eve Blanchard and there was a person who didn't want to see anti post on their dash. They told me that, and that I should tag it with #anti Eve Blanchard. I apologized and fixed it, I learned from my mistake because someone took time of their life to kindly tell me where I was wrong.

Don't like something? Block it!

I'm not telling you to consume content you're not comfortable with. Hell NO! You don't like a creator? Block them! You don't like a content? Blacklist the tag! We're here to enjoy our time, curate your social media accordingly to what you want to see, what makes you happy.

Blocking people is not wrong! Going out of your way to make sure you show how you despise them is!

It's not kindness if you're being selective ✌ And with that I rest my case that Prodigal Son fandom is very problematic!

[victorromeofox-blog]

VRF Website and Community

VRF Website and Community - Soft Opening Coming Soon!

I've been a little less active here in the last little bit, but have been working behind the scenes to build up the VRF website and planning around community-building.  I'm just about ready to start opening the site to semi-public access and start inviting trusted people to the Discord within the next week!  There is some information below introducing some of the content and features of the site and Discord server.  Please contact me (Ask or email preferred) if you would like access - I recommend reading the rest of this post before you do, but it is not required.

If you’re looking to better understand BDSM and kink, participate in a community of rational, respectful, and conscientious kink practitioners, and contribute to protecting, uplifting, and helping others - while still enjoying some fantasies - you are exactly the type of person who would be a great fit for this space.

If you’re “just here for the porn”, this website and community are not going to be what you’re looking for.  They are specifically a pushback against that very mentality, and the rampant toxicity and problematic discourse in the online BDSM/kink space, especially CNC kink, and your needs will be better met elsewhere.  Same goes for those who are just out to get nudes, roleplay online, organize hookups, or find a submissive - there are other spaces geared toward that.

In the meantime, I'd like to explain what this all means to me, where VRF is headed next, and what factors I'm taking into consideration as I continue.  This is going to be a fairly reflective post - almost like a letter of intent - but I'm putting it out there primarily for transparency and also for those of you who want some insight into my thoughts and process.

VRF - A Quick Recap

When I started VRF in 2015, I didn't really have a goal.  I was just looking to curate the kinds of porn I enjoyed the most on Tumblr and occasionally added some captions that came to mind as I did - and accidentally cultivated a sizeable following.  As the blog grew and began to have more interactions with others on the network, I realized that I couldn't stay in-persona all the time - not without sending a potentially dangerous message - so I started answering asks and giving advice out of character, as myself.  These "real" interactions, as well as the reality checks that kept rolling in, set the tone for what VRF would become - and made me feel much more comfortable with running a blog featuring questionable content.

I stepped away from the blog and went on hiatus in 2016; I saw a sharp rise in hateful, bigoted, and violent voices online and no longer felt comfortable that my posts would remain firmly in the realm of fantasy for the majority of readers.  Although the original @violent-rape-fantasies was terminated in 2019, I made a fairly complete backup of the entire blog before it went down.  I returned in late 2020 to start again from scratch, try to rebuild my following, and reconnect with the community - that effort was terminated by Tumblr in 2021, leading me to the two blogs I currently have (@VictorRomeoFox-blog / @violent-rape-fantasies-2​) and to create a self-hosted website containing the original VRF archives with major quality-of-life improvements to the Tumblr experience.

This process made me consider what my goals are for VRF, how I want to achieve them, and what promises I make to the community as part of that journey.  

VRF - Mission and Values

VRF's mission is to be a safe, inclusive, and collaborative space that promotes affirmative consent, healthy relationships, and conscientious kink, where consenting adults can explore their kinks, enjoy fictional fantasies, and uplift one another without overbearing guilt or shame.

Let me quickly break some of this down:

safe: I want people to feel comfortable consuming and interacting with me and my content - not only the kinks and acts depicted in the fantasies, but in the entirety of the space that VRF projects, including knowing that their personhood, privacy, anonymity, and emotional safety are important to me.

inclusive: although I focus primarily on male-on-female scenarios, people from all walks of life are welcome so long as they are good citizens of the community and conscientious kink practitioners.  This also means rejecting hate, bigotry, and willful ignorance.

collaborative: VRF is discursive, both in-persona and out-of-character; the content and direction I take is often influenced by the conversations I have with followers, the asks and submissions I receive, and the state of the community as I see it.  I want to always be in conversation with the community to understand its needs and goals so that I can better meet them.

affirmative consent: as discussed in a previous post, I highlight affirmative consent because it centers around positive action as opposed to consent, which can be a passive state.  I believe this is critical for conscientious kink.

healthy relationships: the relationships we hold shape who we are, who we become, and how we interact with the world around us.  I believe that healthy relationships build healthier, happier lives - this concerns all relationships, from friendships to families to romantic or sexual partnerships.  I have seen less emphasis in this community on relationships, and interpersonal interactions in general, and think that this is a major oversight.

conscientious kink: kink can be dangerous or harmful when not practiced with care and consideration - not just for physical health, but for mental, emotional, and spiritual well-being.  It requires reflection, introspection, and communication in order to form intentionality - the understanding behind what you do, how you do it, and why you do it.

reducing guilt: this is one of the concerns I get most often from followers - how to reconcile their guilt for enjoying consensual non-consent, and whether it is morally wrong or an indication that something is wrong with them.  I believe that CNC, like most kinks, can be practiced in a conscientious way to reduce and mitigate the potential dangers, but that it requires consistent effort, education, and research.

Aside from these, I identified values which are important for me to maintain in order to meet the mission.  Some of them are:

transparency: I try to be as transparent as I can, while maintaining my privacy and anonymity, so that people know that I have nothing to hide.  I cannot build a safe space without building trust, and I can’t build trust without being honest and transparent.

leadership by example: if I am positioning myself as a resource and giving advice to others, I must embody the values I put forward and lead by example, not by words; otherwise, what I say is worthless and lacks substance.

data- and research-driven: I want to provide people with a deeper understanding of themselves and their kinks; while anecdotal information can at times be helpful, I want the things I posit to have weight and justification behind them.  This means an intersection of data, research, and analysis around all of the factors involved, including moral philosophy, psychology, sociology, and biology.

care and patience: these kinks are difficult and hurtful to some people, and confusing or conflicting to others.  I need to be caring, considerate, and patient in order for people to feel comfortable engaging with my content and interacting with me.

contextualized: these kinks and fantasies don’t exist in a vacuum and must be contextualized in order to remain conscientious of the relationship it maintains to the real world.  This means that I don’t want fantasies misrepresented as reality or reality misconstrued as fantasy, and the onus is on me to ensure that followers are seeing both sides of the equation.

quality over quantity: I have a limited amount of time that I can dedicate to VRF work, and want to make the best possible use of that time.  I want to focus on high-quality content, both in-persona fantasies and out-of-character advice, research, and resources, without worrying about how much or how frequently I’m posting.  It also means that I care far less about the number of followers and viewers I have, and much more about whether I am cultivating the kind of followers that match my vision for VRF and its community.

There are other factors and values as well, but these are the biggest ones for me.  They drive how I present myself, how I interact with the community, and what kinds of content I put forth.

VRF Website - Content and Features

What does the website allow me to do that I couldn’t on Tumblr?

No censorship, frustrating filters, or threat of termination - I can focus on my content without running into blockers at every turn, or worrying that I’m going to lose all my work without warning.

Better content controls, organization, and layout - I can group posts logically and have different ways for users to access and view them instead of being one monolithic stream of posts.

Tagging and search - I’ve tagged my archive with kinks, features, toys, actions, positions, locations, and more to make it easier to both find content that you want to see and avoid content that you don’t.  The VRF site features granular search controls, including tag combinations, so you can engage with the site how you choose.

Random Post/Random Caption - sometimes, you’re in the mood to mix things up.  Instead of seeing a temporally-sorted feed of posts, you can go to a random post or caption from the menu bar.

Clear disclaimers and view control - instead of my content being blended into a sea of posts, which creates difficulty in carving out that safe cognitive space for engaging with these kinks or necessitates rapid context-switching, all of my posts will be in one central repository with clear disclaimers where I have control over how things are viewed.

The VRF Archive - the content from the original @violent-rape-fantasies blog have been restored to the VRF website.

There are some downsides, of course - like the lack of network discovery, limited server space and resources, cost, maintenance, and effort.  But the benefits greatly outweigh the additional overhead.

VRF Community

What’s the VRF Discord community all about?

This is a new idea I’m playing with - I’m not new to Discord or community management, but combining that with VRF is a new endeavor for me.  Since I’m going to be shifting my focus from Tumblr to the VRF website, some of those network and community interactions from Tumblr will move to Discord instead, such as interacting with followers, taking requests, feedback, and suggestions, and delving deeper into kink philosophy, fantasy, and practice.

I’ve set up the Discord in a way that different sections can be partitioned - like general discussion, BDSM/kink discussion, CNC fantasies, member content (submissions), and so on.  The different sections are accessible to different levels of membership and verification to maintain that safe, inclusive, and collaborative space.  For example, agreeing to the rules and guidelines gives you access to the general discussion section; verifying your age gives you access to BDSM- and kink-related sections; and being an active and trusted member who contributes to the server over time gets you access to the private sections.

This will also be a much easier way to get in contact with me, and keep the majority of my interactions with the community in one place, instead of hunting across Tumblr messenger for both my accounts, Asks, Twitter, Discord DMs, Telegram, Kik, and email.

VRF - Next Steps and Future Work

In the next few weeks, the VRF website and Discord community will soft-open and move toward general opening.  This is a new direction for me, but after assessing my priorities and goals, it is the solution best suited for what I want to achieve.  I will continue to use Tumblr, but will likely be focusing the majority of my time on the website and Discord.

The mission and values I’ve identified leave quite a bit of room to explore various ways to express these kinks and share knowledge.  I’m not hard-set on VRF being a blog with porn and captions, and could see changes or pivots in the future.  I would love for this work to be able to generate some modest revenue in the future in order to cover basic operating costs, support survivors of abuse as well as kink education and safety, and commission custom content.  As an aside, if you read all of this, please start your request for access with the word “potato” in all caps to let me know you got this far.

I also want to move toward a more ethical and sustainable model of captions and fantasies.  My first step toward this is in creating gifs myself and fully crediting the source, which I started doing when I returned from hiatus.  Concurrently, I am working with my partner, who is an artist, to develop illustrations and animations to accompany captions instead of commercial pornography - we’re still in the R&D phase for this, but hope to share some early content soon (including a fantasy and sketch that we’re working on to accompany a follower submission).  Ideally, we would be able to collaborate with submitters and sex workers to create fully original, credited, and compensated content - but that’s a huge stretch goal for the future.

We are also considering other formats for fantasy and knowledge delivery, including a visual novel format or interactive media (i.e., games) if the art development turns out well and proves sustainable.  We’re both fairly busy people in our personal and professional lives, and in situations where we have to maintain a fairly strict separation between kink involvement and our everyday lives, so carving out time for VRF work is challenging at times!

I look forward to seeing folks on the VRF website and Discord community soon!

[mediaevalmusereads]

Angel in a Devil’s Arms. By Julie Ann Long. Avon, 2019.

Rating: 3.5/5 stars

Genre: historical romance

Part of a Series? Yes, Palace of Rogues #2

Summary: He has devil's blood in his veins. At least, that's always been the legend. How else could the Duke of Brexford's notorious bastard son return from the dead? The brutal decade since Lucien Durand, Lord Bolt, allegedly drowned in the Thames forged him into a man who always gets what—and who—he wants. And what he wants is vengeance for his stolen birthright...and one wild night in Angelique Breedlove's bed.

Angelique recognizes heartbreak when the enigmatic Lord Bolt walks into The Grand Palace on the Thames, and not even his devastating charm can tempt her to risk her own ever again. One scorching kiss drives home the danger.

But in the space between them springs a trust that feels anything but safe. And the passion—explosive, consuming—drives Lucien to his knees. Now his whole life depends on proving his love to a woman who doesn't believe in it...because his true birthright, he now knows, is guardian of Angelique Breedlove's heart.

***Full review under the cut.***

Content Warnings: explicit sexual content, child abandonment, attempted murder

Overview: I wanted to give Julie Ann Long another shot because although there were some things about Lady Derring Takes a Lover that bothered me, I ultimately thought she was good at crafting a story. Angel in a Devil’s Arms had less problematic content, but I’m giving it 3.5 stars primarily because it had a number of things that were just personally not for me. Other than those things, I really enjoyed the dialogue between our hero and heroine, and I enjoyed that my expectations were subverted in a number of ways. While I do think the dynamics in this book are more meaningful if you’ve read the first book in this series, I also enjoyed it as a standalone novel.

Writing: Long’s prose is fairly balanced in that it tells vs shows at appropriate moments. It flowed very well and felt quick without being rushed. The dialogue was also very well-crafted, feeling witty and pointed and interesting without seeming unnatural.

If I had one complaint, I would say that the epilogue was a bit too long and much of the material could have been worked into the main plot. A lot of the epilogue contains some setup for the next book, but most of it involves defining relationships between characters, and I think it could have been moved to the end of the last chapter.

Plot: The non-romance plot of this book follows Angelique Breedlove, a proprietress at a boarding house whose best room was rented by a mysterious patron in book 1. This novel picks up where book 1 left off: in the epilogue of Lady Derring Takes a Lover, Angelique is called away to admit a new arrival, and she is shown a sign that the mysterious patron has come to claim his rooms. For that reason, I think it’s useful to know the backstory of how Angelique came to become proprietress and what she and Delilah (her business partner) had to go through when letting their best rooms.

From there, book 2 follows Angelique and Lucien Durand/Lord Bolt as the latter tries to re-establish himself in London. Lucien has been presumed dead after being thrown into the Thames about a decade earlier, and he has returned to London to face the people who tried to kill him. Angelique’s boarding house becomes his residence as he enacts his plan, and the two clash over a number of things, such as Lucien’s plan to buy the building next to the boarding house and turn it into a gambling den.

All in all, I was pleasantly surprised by Lucien’s plot. I thought he would go about getting revenge, but instead, we see him let go of a lot of his lust for vengeance and replace it with acceptance - acceptance that people who hurt others aren’t evil, just kind of... bland. With bland (but sometimes understandable) motivations. I kind of liked that we didn’t watch Lucien ruin other people’s lives in his quest for vengeance, and I liked that he wasn’t overly violent and barbaric. In fact, he seemed quite emotionally balanced, and though he had some hang-ups, he was able to work through them in a way I found satisfying. My only complaint is that it didn’t feel as if Lucien found closure at the end. While he does confront some people, it seems like he doesn’t confront others, and I kind of wished we had gotten to see that.

Angelique, by contrast, seemed to have very little going on with her. As much as the book focuses on Lucien, I would have liked to see Angelique’s story get a bit more attention. Most of her backstory is explained in book 1, so when it’s revealed in book 2, it doesn’t have quite the impact as one might expect. I would have preferred if her story was centered more on the themes that come up later; Angelique scolds Lucien at once point because he does something that risks her livelihood and reputation, and she tells him that women always bear the consequences of a man’s actions. I would have liked to see that theme be woven into the rest of her story, so that when she clashes with Lucien over something like the building next door, the conflict is more than just a building: it’s about Angelique’s independence. Of course, there is a little of that, but bolstering the thematic elements could have made it more apparent and make some of the plot feel more deliberate.

Characters: Angelique, our heroine, was very sympathetic, and even more so if you’ve read her backstory in book 1. I like that Long crafted her to be jaded without being cold; Angelique is very distrustful of men, but she doesn’t treat all of them with hostility. Instead, she’s very guarded when it comes to getting close to her, and she’s very reluctant to give up any semblance of independence for fear of being cast aside again with nothing. I also found her honesty and wit with Lucien refreshing; though I wouldn’t call it “witty banter,” Angelique’s retorts clearly show her intelligence and courage to speak directly.

Lucien, our hero, was fun to read about. Lucien has a rather high opinion of himself, but rather than coming across as insufferable, his arrogance is charming - probably because he doesn’t treat people like dirt, and we learn that much of his arrogance also comes from a place of insecurity. I liked that he doesn’t allow his jaded past to turn him into an absolute asshole, and I liked that much of his arc involved seeking forgiveness/goodwill and letting go of vengeance rather than enacting it.

Delilah, our heroine from book 1, and her husband also make appearances. I really enjoyed the friendship between Delilah and Angelique, though I do think it’s more meaningful if you’ve read book 1.

The supporting characters at the Grand Palace on the Thames (the boarding house) were lovely. I’m a sucker for the found family trope, and the boarders are definitely a found family with a bunch of different quirks that mold together beautifully. These side characters might also be more significant if the reader has read book 1, but they’re just as charming if you haven’t read the story of how they came to the boarding house. My only complaint is that I wish Dot got a little more respect. Dot is a rather clumsy ladies’ maid who has a habit of getting a lot of things wrong. While I would normally find her endearing, I got the feeling that the other characters really didn’t treat her well. They would say things about her behind her back, allow strangers to insult her, and Angelique at one point said something pretty classist about not considering the emotions of servants. It rubbed me the wrong way, and I wanted Dot - and all the servants, really - to be just as valued as the “paying” members of the family.

Romance: I really enjoyed the way Angelique and Lucien’s progressed from mutual dislike to interest to friends to lovers. Angelique sees right through Lucien’s bravado from the very beginning, and I loved that she was able to call him out on his ridiculousness or say something honest yet totally unexpected. Their exchanges were some of the best parts of the book, and I liked seeing how comfortable they became around each other. It felt natural and real, without the two being forced into intimacy.

The main thing I didn’t like about their relationship was that they had a period where they got together, then split, then had a jealousy subplot (a new boarder flirts with Lucien and it seems like the character was introduced just to incite jealousy), then got together, then split again. Maybe this is a personal preference thing - I don’t like it when my characters split up more than once. It feels like forced drama. In this case, one split up would have been sufficient, perhaps after Lucien does the thing that threatens Angelique’s reputation and business prospects. A split up at that point would have felt logical, and it would have gotten rid of that jealousy subplot, which I disliked.

TL;DR: Angel in a Devil’s Arms is an enjoyable romance with clever dialogue and a plot that subverts expectations. The characters were likeable and the found family was charming; I just wish the thematic elements had linked up with the plot more strongly and for the romance to have one less break up.

[tinysatansierra-blog]

Markiplier manor is toxic here’s why

So Markiplier manor (Markipliers official discord server) has gotten a surplus of new people in it, this happened a few weeks ago the manor itself though has been up for awhile. originally a members only server it was eventually opened up for everyone and yes there are alot of genuinely good people and the mods are alright but unfortunately its becoming a toxic environment. 

SO EDIT i have discussed with the mods that being said ... im keeping this up as a reminder of we can do better we can help people who are struggling through something instead of shutting them down we can listen to people who are being oppressed and bravely point out new media that only worsens that oppression and stigmatization and not just the mods who i was kind of harsh towards but who are human everyone as a community can do better and this is a large community think of the work we can do just doing the basics like boycotting problematic content and helping those who cry out for it who need it (and noticing and shutting down manipulative/toxic behaviors) ... i dont know if im going to go back to the manor yet tho im going to let this sit give it a week yall can agree or disagree but know that if you try to be an ass your going to get shut down and your feelings are going to get hurt 

lets start with the basics “triggering topics” triggering topics can be anything in particular but it generally means a topic that relates to another persons trauma. Now while it is important to acknowledge a persons trigger words and try to keep the conversation respectable ive also noticed people use it to shut down people who come on freaking out because their dealing with a stressful situation/something traumatic just happened. This has happened to me personally and to a friend with me it was about being pro choice and having to in short make that actual choice. i was discussing this in the bathroom because i (like anyone else who comes in with baggage) did not know about any pro choice discords at that moment and was afraid of being stigmatized or going onto a discord that says its a safe space only for it to be filled with trolls. Mark manor is labeled as a safe space and many people come on there looking for support with me no one told me that the topic was triggering to them (which apparently it was because a friend of theirs had to make the choice not her herself think what you will) they just went to a mod early on when i just found the server as a member a friend (who i wont name) had gotten.... assaulted majority of her werent online and as someone who has been there and yes when she told me it did trigger my own trauma she needed moral support... the mod shut her down and deleted her comments and didnt give her a pointer to any other discord where she could discuss the topic openly and get moral support and be pointed to resources (it actually took me ten minutes to find and confirm a lgbtq therapy chat earlier this year for another individual discussing mental health) this was before i had gotten on for that day but i noticed those messages and i contacted her when she told me what was up yea it triggered my memories and its not fun but I FUCKING HELPED HER i made sure she went to the police to atleast file a statement (while the police dont always help it is good to have it on file) i even made her a plush and shipped it out to her and i would do it again and again because its not good to basically tell another person to shut up because it triggers others not without atleast trying to help them find another fucking place and making sure their actually ok and in a physical safe place  next is them claiming the manor is a “safe space” a safe space is by definition  “ a place or environment in which a person or category of people can feel confident that they will not be exposed to discrimination, criticism, harassment, or any other emotional or physical harm.” you would also think that the manor would be a safe space in the fact that marginalized and oppressed groups of people would be able to point out problematic content and have an open and free discussion about it and how it makes them uncomfortable. especially people of lgbtq community which alot of people in that chat are. yesterday (and this was what caused me to officially turn away from the server) in the patio (which is the members only chat) a Transgender individual pointed out the problematic content that is huniepop and how it fetishizes trans people as well as other minorities now this game i hear tries to make itself out as a “parody” .... its not its a sexual dating sim what would make it a parody is if sex noises were replaced with donkey sounds and the lewd pictures were replaced with poorly drawn doodles of tits or what have you its a game for incels marks hilarious when he plays it because he doesnt take the game seriously my issue isnt with him its with the developer. and if you did not know (which apparently people dont) the character poli is described as “a girl with a dick” the individual pointed this out because they felt like it dehumanizes them and paints them as nothing more than a fetish... and also apparently you can “choose” is poli is trans which kind of gives off the message that people can ignore trans peoples identity if it makes them uncomfortable... or if they dont sexualize them. and the muslim community is more or less in the same boat i come from the bible belt in usa im not muslim i am not trans but i do have a reason for standing with both and i will get to that in a bit so i was raised in a christian household in a christian setting like muslim women were basically told we cannot have sex and any sexual thought is sinful and we will be punished blah blah blah your even more closeted if your gay or bi because then you can face ... violence that being said to make the woman from the middle east hyper sexual like they did is kind of shitty even for a incel pleasing sex game. the individual who thought it would be ok to discuss this in the server because its labeled as a safe space and is generally “lgbtq” friendly thus believing he would have people agree and discuss ... was unceremoniously shut down by their peers and a mod was notified this person was not hostile maybe a bit frustrated because he wanted to talk about it and thought he would have this genuinely helpful conversation and people would listen and spread the word because to have problematic content be popular can isolate the oppressed group even more so WHEN NO ONE WANTS TO LISTEN TO THEM. if a group of marginalized people notice something problematic with content and you claim to be an ally of said group then you need to acknowledge and support what they say. they told him to go to twitter where he could potentially be bullied and written off ... because again its an INCEL PLEASING SEX GAME.(which means incels if you ever dealt with them will go and say anything to justify the game even using slurs and bullying) and to put the icing on the cake to change the topic they brought up robin ... i actually dont know who robin is as i dont really focus much on youtube creators personal stuff (it feels off for me to not personally know an individual but know their personal stuff without having actually talking to them its weird i know its a thing i have in my head) but apparently they recently came out as female and good for them im super proud of him and the patio members were discussing how they were proud of him as well for beginning to wear makeup and making themselves more feminine which would be great if they werent trying so hard to shut down the trans male who was trying to spread awareness on problematic stuff .... something he pointed out ... and something they gaslighted and said he was being hostile. really its almost as if they only care about trans issues when its someone famous discussing them  so what can we possibly do about huniepop being transphobic and the answer is very easy BOYCOTT IT like... yall were up in arms and boycotted jk rowling with snap and a turn do we only cancel the old and ugly? do we only cancel those who we dont think is funny? mark is not at fault he probably doesnt realize it and any comments made on the issue are talked down upon or drowned amongst other comments im not saying to cancel him im saying to cancel the game HARD. ignore the posts bitch at the dev demand refunds for your game. like consumers have infinitely more power than corps want to admit.  so you basically have a community that claims to be a safe space but only if you want to talk about sunshine and rainbows and its highly hypocritical of them to claim safety.  another thing is emotionally abusive/manipulative people hide in the server and the mods dont ever seem to acknowledge it. i cannot tell you how many times ive gotten into arguments with people who seems nice then turn into assholes then claim to be the victim when i or others go off on them. if you recognize my name you know i dont stand down when it comes to having a snarky or rude comment thrown at me if your going to be an ass were fighting i dont care how nice you seemed beforehand and you dont get to call a mod just because i actually stood up for myself or others sorry not sorry dont be a bitch nuff said.  now why would i care so much about problematic content? why would i care and stand by the transgender and muslim people (aside from being ya know... an actual ally and not someone who claims it for sympathy and brownie points?) its because i am autistic i am also able to function well on my own but there is a movie created by the famous singer sia it is called music it is a movie frowned upon by the autisitic community because infantizes and dehumanizes non verbal autistic people i am fortunate and unfortunate in not having to deal with much stigma unfortunate because i wasnt diagnosed until i was 17 alot of answers about my behavior could have been answered if i had been diagnosed earlier but considering society loves the quiet timid female and i functioned “well” for neurotypicals i was ignored. so yea you bet your ass im standing with them and raising awareness about huniepop and their was this one person when i mentioned this point i cant remember there name nor to do i give a shit about them because when i mentioned how autistic people ... how i was in the same boat with music by sia (again i advise that no one target the actress who was under contract target sia and please boycott her so she knows she cant get brownie points or money for a movie that stigmatizes who she claims she wants to “help” (*cough* profit off of *cough cough*) and only serves as a feel good movie for neurotypicals and ignorant people)  they said “i heard people who hated the movie i heard people who found it alright people are ALLOWED to like problematic content” ... and like ... does anyone else see the problem here? its not hard at all to boycott celebrities for making content  and im going to repeat this point  IF A GROUP OF MARGINALIZED, STIGMITIZED AND OPPRESSED PEOPLE CALL OUT SOMETHING FOR BEING PROBLEMATIC AND YOU CLAIM TO BE AN ALLY YOU FUCKING LISTEN TO THEM AND DONT SHUT THEM DOWN I DONT GIVE A SHIT YOU DONT HAVE A FUCKING EXCUSE. if you cant bring yourself to boycott a piece of media and replace it with the infinitely more suitable forms that supports the group you claim to be for your not an ally your a fucking hypocrite  and that is why i left markiplier manor i am still a youtube special ... thingy member and i will continue to be a member to support mark i want people to overall listen to those who speak up against a creator and a piece of media and listen to us all no matter how “good” something seems. .. also there is a video called listen it was created by nonverbal autistic people  and communicationFIRST a group that sia apparently communicated with for her movie... and then ignored  https://youtu.be/H7dca7U7GI8

[kuromichad]

like tbh at this point i think the general sort of Anti Movement has accomplished basically all it’s ever going to and maybe it’s time to like. not ‘calm down’ as in ‘i’m condescendingly telling you not to be upset that abusive/exploitative content exists’ but just like... at least... stop actively hunting for it!!! stop making it such a huge part of your identity and what you do online!!! stop lying your way into people’s private accounts and servers just so you can spread around the content that they obviously know is not something that should be spread around??? like it just does not have to be this way... 

the thing that i wanted to accomplish when i was actively identifying as an anti, the whole reason i started being that way, is that at the time 5+ years ago fandom culture was still extremely “always be nice, never ever criticize or ‘shame’ anything, we’re all oppressed loner geeks here and being ‘mean’ to each other would be the worst social crime possible, worse than racism, worse than anything!!! boo hoo hoo!!!” and THAT is what created a really unhealthy passively-grooming environment. because expressing discomfort with things it’s literally normal to be uncomfortable with was met with “how dare you be shaming people, you’re a bad person.” 

there wasn’t the same kind of content warning culture we have now, the edgy problematic shipping was literally just mixed in with everything else, people would presume comfort with all sorts of subjects and bring up edgy shit unprompted in response to non-edgy works. that’s the kind of shit that creates normalization, that’s what i grew up with: “i hope ron and hermione will be married with babies in the epilogue <3” and “it would be hot if snape sexually abused harry <3” were literally both just What Shipping Is and there were too many spaces where they were talked about side by side. the casual attitude was what was actively dangerous and unhealthy. 

things are a lot fucking different than they were 5, 10, 15 years ago now!! there’s CONSTANT discussion of which subjects are harmful and why, there’s well-understood pressure to tag and warn for things, a lot of nsfw fandom accounts actively block any minors they encounter. there’s like, an actual divide now between ‘normal’ shipping and nsfw content and ‘problematic’ content. wahoo we won!! literally just this amount of separation wouldve resolved massive chunks of what was bad for me and so many others as a kid/teenager in fandom! 

but like i have to be honest bro a lot of antis are on a fucking power trip and they dont want to stop getting that constant reward of righteous anger being validated. it was obvious to me like, immediately, only a few months into me being actively an anti i would see people all over who would parrot talking points without actually understanding them, invent new ‘rules’ tailored to ridiculously specific situations so they could ‘call out’ a person or ship they didnt like for petty reasons, arbitrarily enforce standards based on their own preferences... not everyone is righteous, not everyone is a wounded person trying to protect others. a whole fucking lot of antis are just people who love the thrill of Being Right at all costs. (and like, obviously also a lot of proshippers/anti-antis are just people who love being contrary, edgy, obnoxious. i’m not like coming out as anti-anti here i’m just expressing frustration with the side i’ve been involved in.) 

and i just think it’s getting really fucked up and overboard and awful that people are so addicted to this War they think theyre in, and Being Right, being the Safe and Righteous ones, that they have to constantly escalate the dialogue and make everything so absolutely fucking urgent and awful, it’s not fun enough to have a thoughtful discussion about how tropes in media (even fan-created media, because fandom can encompass literal millions of people, and you literally spend more time socializing in fandom + consuming fanworks than you ever would just straight up rewatching/rereading the source material over and over) can contribute to abusive and exploitative relationships irl, what’s fun is the adrenaline rush of calling someone a literal pedophile over suggestive art of an anime 17 year old (with the same face and body of another character that’s 25, and another character that’s 13, and another that’s 21, etc etc), what’s fun is self-righteously insisting that the fandom term made up to say “i don’t care that you think reylo is destroying society” is actually a secret code name for “out and proud literal irl pedophile.” it’s fucking absurd. i’m so sick of it dude you’re not helping anyone. 

we are so, so, so far past doing anything actually helpful for protecting kids from media they’re not ready for and people who aren’t safe for them. if anything i think it’s just its own new brand of deeply unhealthy to constantly be going LOOK, look over there, inside that locked account, there are horrors i’m going to describe to you in great detail, and that person is a bogeyman who wants to hurt YOU, personally, you the 14 year old reading this callout, you are never safe, even when people are purposely locking their accounts to keep you safe from the content they acknowledge is triggering to people, those people are deeply inherently sinful and evil and they are GOING to hurt you, look at the evidence right now, they’re hurting you. like. anti culture is sick, it’s decaying and poisoned and fucking obnoxious. i’m not saying that that means all proship people are perfectly innocent or morally in the right or whatever but i find it acutely more upsetting when the side that’s claiming to be all about Protecting The Children and being the ones that are morally good is behaving fucking absurdly and escalating conflicts on purpose. trying to shock people into agreeing with you by throwing out the word Pedophile every five seconds is not the fucking way to do things. cut it out.

[ofdreamsanddoodles]

if you don't mind me asking, how do you deal with consuming content with 'problematic' aspects? for example, i see you reblog posts criticizing things like racism in tma, and you can still make content while being able to recognize those things. it's hard for me to continue enjoying something when it has even 1 thing slightly bad in it, but i know that's not a healthy way to consume content. is there anything you keep in mind when interacting with a given series? u don't need to answer ❤️ ty

also a note on my ask -- of course you don't need to answer, and you aren't a therapist & etc. i just admire your ability to both recognize flaws in works but still enjoy them, and thought since you seem to have critical thinking skills you might have a perspective that you could offer. being on tumblr from a young age seems to have affected my ability to separate things in my mind, lol. thanks so much for reading even if you don't feel comfortable answering.

I mean... you’ve kind of answered your own question? The only way to consume media is to remember that everything has flaws. My brother came by while I was typing this up and told me the answer is to “just vibe” because everyone is more or less terrible in one aspect or another but obviously, that’s not the answer you’re looking for.

I guess the short answer is just... you have to learn how to trust your own set of morals and understand that you shouldn’t feel guilty if a story you like betrays you. And yes, that’s hard, especially when you grow up surrounded by very rigid rules on what’s “okay” to watch, but if you’re just looking for some tips, here’s a list that I hope will help:

Find people you trust and see what they think of the situation. Think about whether or not they’re coming from an informed place. A friend of mine asked me if I knew about a Jewish tradition a while back. I had no idea what they were talking about. Turns out, it was something popular with German Jews. None of my family is from Germany. Sometimes, just being Jewish doesn’t mean I’m the right person to ask.

Find people who are complaining & see why they’re upset. Think about who is annoyed by this and how many of them there are. Think about what they think the proper response is, if any. Think about whether you have the right to wave off their concerns. Think about how those concerns are treated, both in-fandom and by creators. I saw a lot of people in the tma tag complaining about twitter “overreacting” to MAG 185, but if Jonny felt the need to issue an apology and specifically say that he realizes he’s crossed a line, chances are, the complaints were probably warranted (a thing I’d like to add is that apparently, RQ also issued an apology for a fluff episode they released, which I thought was kind of silly, because the episode was essentially just joking about martin forgetting a word. But also, as a neurodivergent person who sometimes struggles with speech, I do understand why that might upset people. not all apologies have to about incredibly important topics, but even the ones who aren’t show a lot about the cast behind it. Alternatively, if RQ had only apologized for this episode, and not MAG 185, that also says a lot about where there priorities are, and what fans they care about keeping)

Think about what will happen if you continue watching/reading etc. It’s not so much “is it okay if I keep watching this?” but “if I continue to watch this, will I convince myself that this problematic aspect isn’t actually a big deal? Is it so ingrained in the show that I can’t watch an episode without seeing the problems in it? What will I say to others, if they want to watch this?” For example, if someone sees you’ve reblogged a scene from a show you like and asks what it’s about, how many excuses are you going to give? How many trigger warnings are there, and can you justify them? There’s a difference between a piece of media having a character say homophobic slurs, and a piece of media saying a gay person should have homophobic slurs thrown at them.  Also: If you think you cant justify getting someone else interested, you probably shouldn’t justify contributing to the show. This might be obvious, but there’s a very big difference in pirating a tv show and buying its merch. 

Think about the fandom. If you continue talking about this, who are you surrounding yourself with? Like, there are a LOT of weirdos making content for kids shows, but that doesn’t always mean the show itself is weird. What it does mean, though, is that you should be careful navigating your enjoyment. Sometimes, the only way to enjoy something is to talk about it with a select few friends. Sometimes, it’s to enjoy it by yourself. I do believe it’s possible to enjoy a show in spite of the canon, but at the same time, if you’re watching a show that’s attracting a lot of racists, think about why that might be. 

some more thoughts under the cut, because I already wrote them out before I realized I could just make a list.

The thing about consuming media is that it’s very subjective. I know a lot of people who have given up on tma recently and while that’s not wholly because it’s “problematic,” it definitely plays a part in it. People have different meters for what they can excuse in media. The important thing to remember is WHY they left, and if you’re able to keep that in your mind while also continuing to engage in contact with the media. Will you be able to remember that Daisy traumatized Jon more than any other avatar if you consume context calling her Basira’s hot murderwife? Can you talk about the Flesh and acknowledge the racism in the creation of the Haans?

Personally, I don’t think you can produce positive content about Daisy and also acknowledge the harm she causes. You can’t point at a character and say, yes, she has committed actual police brutality, but I think she deserves a cute lesbian romance anyway. That’s not really a thing tma has done wrong as much as it is a problem with the fandom, but like, at the end of the day, it’s all just a matter of critical thinking. Who is being hurt by these portrayals of the characters? How? Most of the problems with tma aren’t things that are, like, baked into the actual worldbuilding and for a lot of people, that’s enough for them to still justify making content for the show.

If your complaints sound like “oh, if only they didn’t do xy, this would make for a good show,” then you’re probably fine. But if it goes into “i like this, but only if I can ignore (major plot point)” think about why you feel the need to keep watching. There are shows I’ve stopped watching based on principle. There’s manga I read that I only talk about with my brother and no one else, because I don’t want to be exposed to the fans. It doesn’t have to be as simple as “well, this artist did a bad thing, so now I’m going to ignore it forever.” If you think the creators of something are bad people, don’t support them. You can still pirate it or whatever, but if it’s something like hetalia, where the point of the show is just “let’s put all these stereotypes in a room and see how they react” then yes, for your own sake, you should stop watching because this is how stereotypes become normalized, and no one should be consuming media where nazi germany as the protagonist.

Really, at the end of the day, it’s just a matter of becoming media literate and that’s a process that takes time. Remember that being interested in something that isn’t 100% doesn’t make you a bad person, and listen to the people around you. Try and be a safe space for the people who do have complaints and remember not to place your enjoyment of something over the comfort of others. Other than that, just... do your best, I guess?