#syscourse is important!

[starstruck-sillies]

just to reiterate what everyone else is saying, its unrealistic for you to expect change immediately if at all. not to bring up the whole trauma/system thing, but that really does impact your ability to process and manage any amount of change (change = new = unknown = unsafe/potentially dangerous = dont!!! no no no!!!!) and anyone telling you its easy! just flip the switch! doesnt understand that and you need to ignore them fr

dont pressure yourself or the system into picking a side if it doesnt feel right! you are not required to take a stand either way and - on behalf of sysblr - you are still a welcome & loved part of this community regardless

syscourse is difficult and being a system is even harder. yall dont have to overwhelm yourselves with this big change to still be cool and valid online. take your time, guys, yall are great as is 🫶

HEHEHE Thank you!!

Trauma has a big part in why we're so invested in syscourse, and probably has a lot to do with why we're anti endo specifically. Not going to really go into detail on it for obvious reasons, but it probably does play a huge role, and the specific trauma probably has a lot to do with it too.

I feel like people don't really talk enough about how trauma can impact your specific syscourse stance. I think that'd be a very good discussion to have, and might help people understand each other better!

People on both sides have been pretty damn nice to us, which we're really grateful for. Idk where we'd be right now without the support from system communities in general, or these discussions about systemhood, plurality, and what it all means. It doesn't exactly make things easier, but it does make everything seem just a little bit less scary.

Syscourse is definitely difficult, but it's also been pretty worthwhile for us, we've met some awesome people and learned a ton. Being a system is definitely very hard too, but it's easier when there's a bunch of people going through it too who are happy to support you!

-Milkyway

[ecos-syscourse]

*angrily* no matter what you did in your past, YOU STILL DESERVE RECOVERY. You deserve help. You deserve happiness.

you should apologize, and they don't have to forgive you, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't forgive yourself.

We say this in the "please care about your mental health" way.

harming others does not make you a terrible, irredeemable person. it makes you a person who needs help. people who do harm to others need help.

[chaos-in-one]

I think the system & plural communities needs to get way more normal about people who are not ready to recover. ESPECIALLY if you label yourself as 'pro recovery'.

Is trying to fearmonger about recovery and/or convince other people not to try to do things that would help their recovery a dick move? Absolutely. But you know what else is a dick move? Trying to force someone who is not ready to start recovering into recovery. Treating people who haven't gotten far or aren't actively working on recovering like shit. It's not 'pro recovery' to do that shit. Doing that doesn't help those people recover. If someone is not ready for that, is not ready to work on recovering in xyz way, forcing it will do far more harm and likely push them in the opposite direction, away from recovering. And treating people in those situations like shit just harms their mental health further, it doesn't help them recover in any way.

Recovery works different for everyone. And sometimes, that means there's stages or points in time where little to no active work to recover is happening, because the person is not ready to move on yet. And that is okay, that is not something that should be shamed.

[traumagenic-positivity]

i wanted to make it clear for anyone who sees this blog and wishes to harass us!

• we are strictly anti endo. however, that does not mean we will hunt you down or send you death threats. we dislike that in general, as we've had bad experiences with that. and we do not think most people deserve death threats all around.

• most plural spaces here are pro endogenic. this is a rare space that isn't, and I will keep it that way.

• if we do come off as rude or anything in a response, you've most likely hit a nerve, or we're thinking about the people who follow us who have been full on HARASSED by other endos. yes, this is a space for us! but it's much more of a space for the others in this community.

please refrain from commenting, reblogging, or @-ing us in a hateful response to this. acknowledge it if you'd like, and please try to keep this positive.

no, I do not personally like everyone, but I do hope you all stay safe. have a nice day, please.

[the-hellscape-sys]

hi guys i have been seeing some shit floating around so i just wanna.. say something about it.

let me preface this: THIS IS NOT A POST ABOUT SYSCOURSE.

but i’ve been seeing some blatant ableism regarding endogenic systems and delusions. i am not here to talk about whether endo systems are real, as i have no interest in engaging with syscourse.

i am here to talk about how some of you treat those who you believe to be delusional.

regardless of what you think their delusion may be, Do Not Try To Correct Them. unless you are explicitly told to do so by the person experiencing delusion, do not try to reality check people unprompted. it is unproductive and only leads to more distress.

most delusions are relatively harmless, and even if they are harmful, it is NOT your job to remedy the delusions of a stranger. it is also extremely disrespectful to psychotic folks when you use “delusional” as a derogatory term and try to harass those you believe to be delusional.

for a space consisting of people with a heavily stigmatized mental illness, i am very disappointed to see ableism against psychotic people in this community. delusional people are people, and they can be hurt when others say derogatory things about them.

(if anyone has resources about how to help/treat delusional people, please reblog w/ those)

[thecircularsystem]

I would give anything to do it over again the same exact way.

Every ounce of trauma. Every regret. Every fucked up thing I’ve said and done.

I’d do it again. A million times over. Because look at where I am now; I’m not fucking changing that.

My DID — developed from trauma — kept me alive. I hold it tighter to my identity than my gender, because it’s such a vital aspect of myselves that it literally changes the way I have to speak, in order to make things clear that I am multiple. I would not give it up for the world. I want everyone to know one day that I am a traumatized individual, one who is thriving — and I’m not fucking cured, I’m just like this.

If I had the option to have the same exact life, same exact everything, but not have the trauma — just be endogenic — then I would turn it down, because inherently, my system would not be the same. My life would not be the same.

Rice wouldn’t have locked herself away. Wade wouldn’t have silently been depressed and torturing himself — meaning we never would’ve had a reason to split Debra. Numb wouldn’t have needed to protect us, so he’s gone too — my husband would be gone. Would I even exist?

“What if you could be endogenic and have all of you still?” Don’t you get it? Trauma is part of me.

My trauma has rewired my brain. There is no alternate universe where I exist as an endogenic system member, because I am an aspect of my trauma.

And I don’t want to change that. Why the hell would I want to change that?

I love myself more than I hate what’s hurt me.

[echuschasma]

Dear Anti-Endos,

Respectfully, get the fuck out of pro-endo spaces. I know it's hard for you to watch us being happy and accepting ourselves for who we are. But that doesn't give you an excuse to raid our communities.

We don't hurt you. We don't claim to be taking over the community, nor do we "glamorise" plurality. We exist, and have carved out spaces for us just as you did for yourselves. We do not invade your spaces, telling you how to live, or how to present yourselves.

All we do is exist, being our own people. I don't understand what compels you to attack us, to make us want to revaluate everything about ourselves. Telling us we can't exist, or that we're lying to ourselves about our trauma, is completely unwarranted.

And as a reminder, plurality is defined as the state of two or more conscious beings sharing a physical vessel. There is no mention of trauma in that definition.

[imjustaf444keriguess]

"ramcoa is antisemitic?" "no its not!" its an acronym. whether you call it ramcoa or oea or ritual/organized abuse or whatever shouldn't matter.

what we should do is trust people's trauma experiences, whatever label we give them.

[sysmedsaresexist]

Guys

By rubbing your dog’s ears, they are getting high off of their hormones.

“Rubbing a dog’s ears stimulates sensitive nerve endings, leading to the release of certain endorphins. Endorphins are the “feel-good” hormones that can calm and relax your dog. So if that’s the definition of getting ‘high’—then yes, your dog will feel loved and relaxed,” said Dr.Candy Akers.

[tommyssupercoolblog]

okay so let me check my notes umm... according to fakclaimers:

systems can only be kids because it only develops then, but also can only be adults over 20 or so because otherwise you're making it up for tiktok OR wouldn't possibly know yet, and you have to be diagnosed with DID/OSDD but you also have to be truamagenic or the diagnosis doesn't count even if it comes from a doctor, and if you're truamagenic but self diagnosed then you're lying or confused. if you're truamagenic AND diagnosed then you're a freak and dangerous to the public OR you have to live in secret or else you must be lying. you can't be plural on purpose through thoguhtform because then you're making yourself disabled and that's fetishizing but you also can't be plural against your will UNLESS you met the previous critera otherwise that wouldn't happen to you. and you can't call yourself a t-pla ever even though the controvery is around cultural appropriation and a stranger has no clue over the internet if you have the right to reclaim, which you VERY WELL MIGHT. but if you call yourself a thoughform you're cringe and too woke. if you're endogenic you can't call yourself a system but you also can't call yourself plural or a collective or anything else. If you're mixed-orgin you're just a confused truamagenic or a lying endogenic.

You also can't have introjects because that's cringe and cringe means you're lying but you also can't have original alters because then you're just roleplaying as OCs. as an introject you can't hate your source or be neutral because then why would you introject?? but you can't love them or else you're just a crazy fan pretending to be them. as an original alter you can't be TOO different from the original or that's just something out of a movie but you can't be alike because then you're not really an alter.

You can't have only nice alters who get along together because then you're faking and if you have alter conflict then you need to be locked up because you're probably a serial killer. and you have to only have split when you were little and can't split ever again even though that's something that happens all the time even past people's 20s, and you can't have any other disorder or you're just wrong about being plural, and you can't hate being plural because then you're attention seeking and clearly must be pretending to have a disorder for pity, and you can't love being plural because you're not allowed to love having a disorder or disability, and you can't be neutral about it because why the fuck wouldn't you have a big reaction to being so weird?? you're weird. so you must be lying about being weird because everyone else finds this shocking and disturbing or fascinating and surely so would you.

and you can't not date because then you're missing out (even if ur aro, ace, or aroace mostly) and you can't date because then you're abusing your partner and lying to them by being multiple people since you're clearly just one OR you're making them date strangers which is also bad, and you can't date another system because you can't know other systems personally or else you're all fakers, and you can't date in-headspace because that's too weird to be true. you can't all be striaght because that's unrealistic so you're faking but if your alters all have different sexualities that's a sure sign you're faking and just making up OCs and if you're all gay then you're ALSO faking and just trying to be Jefferson Miku Binder Woke and are a cringe SJW. You can't all be the same gender but you can't be different genders either and you can't have individual labels but if you id as genderfluid or pluralgender or something collective that's cringe and clearly a sign you're just a dumb lying teenager begging for attention.

you can't have a consistent host but also you can't have anyone other than the "original" front for too long. you can't be able to control switches but you also need to be able to "prove it" by switching in front of other people. you can't have different mannerisms or handwriting because that's overdone and dramatic and clearly just theatre and you can't have the same mannerisms or handwriting becase then you're clearly just lying. You can't think of yourself as one person because that's confusing, but you can't think of yourself as multiple people, because you share a body so CLEARLY you must be one singular person!!!!! If you use i/me pronouns you're faking and just forgetting to act plural as a plothole in ur lies and if you use we/us you're also faking and clearly only know about systems through tiktok. if you go by your infividual names you're being confusing and a hasstle and a bitch, but if you use a collective name or go by the og/host's name you're lying and a catfish abuser. if you get final fusion you're not plural anymore and don't get to talk about it. if you don't get final fusion you're a faker.

you can't literally be seperate because that makes no sense, you can't have more than one consciousness in one mind!! but you can't just be one person separated by memory walls with the EFFECT being "as if" you were actually seperate because then you're not really plural.

you can't act or dress normal because "we'd be able to tell" but you can't be visibly weird or plural because then you're fake, cringe, or both. you can't roleplay or cosplay because that means your plurality is cosplay too, but you can't avoid roleplaying and cosplaying because then you're crazy for identifying as another person than the og but not being able to dress up as a different person (and/or your source if ur an introject).

did i get it all?? no, probably, because there's way more rules and contradictions than even these, huh?? there's an infinite list of rules and ideas but really they're all just set dressing. all the conflicts just end up resulting in one, big rule. but they don't say the big rule because a long list like that, if it's spread out and not put in one post like this, doesn't look as mean. so it's easier to swallow it one bit at a time, to rule out one way of life after another, then to say it outright.

when every possible way to be is ruled out, you get the real rule, which is:

"If you're plural or a system, you can't exist."

there is no acceptable way to be plural. the only "correct" way to be plural is to be erased entirely.

[ecl1psical]

I'm getting closer and closer to believing that pluralphobia is a unique form of ableism that should be referred to as such, because a couple of systems causing issues in your server doesn't mean you ban all plurality-related discussion. It's infuriating. Plurality deserves to be talked about just as much as any other thing about a person.

I wanted to badly to put up a fight about the ass-backwards logic there, if gay people started fights in your server, would you ban all sexuality-related discussion? No. To refuse to take a stance for a marginalized community and put a stop to infighting by just banning the topic of plurality altogether is infuriating. It is a fucking shame that I need to stay in this server for tech support and community purposes for a game otherwise I would've started hitting people.

[starstruck-sillies]

I just realized that uh. A lot of times we're very hesitant to call out a lot of other anti endos when they're lying or being mean, almost out of fear.

That uhm. That's. That's not fun to think about.

I can't tell if it's just social anxiety and rejection sensitivity, or if there's more to it and uhh. That's kind of. Really weird and kind of terrifying? What the fuck?? Like it's entirely possible that it's just us being socially awkward and not wanting them to stop talking to us, but idk..

...Does anyone else, pro, anti, neutral, whatever, struggle in a similar way with people from your same stance? Do you feel that way about other stances?

-Xero

[interstellarsystem]

Endogenic Systems and Experiences in the Neurodivergent Community

We tend to stay mostly on the fringes of syscourse nowadays without directly interacting with it too often but I'm going to post this more broadly and less focused on our specific instance of this because community-wise I think it's important to talk about.

Endogenic and other non-traumagenic systems are so commonly excluded from so many neurodivergent-safe spaces where they would otherwise be able to gain knowledge about the disorders they might have, share experiences and coping strategies with peers, or at least have a sense of community that is so commonly valuable to disabled and/or neurodivergent people. In a lot of cases, even people who only support non-traumagenic systems get shoved out.

[Continued under the readmore as it's long.]

This obviously harms non-traumagenic systems, but I have to point out that when people sit there and say "we care about REAL disabled people!", I have to say.... Do you? Because if you did care about those with mental illness, physical disability or neurodivergence, you in my mind wouldn't exclude them based on something unrelated to the topic itself which might even be something as small as holding an opinion that other people get to be the judge of their own experiences. You can say that you care about "real" disabled people, but what about when a traumagenic DID system also has a tulpa that they consider just as valid and real as their alters? What about when a system labels themselves as quoigenic because in reality, you owe no one the knowledge that you are vulnerable and traumatised? What about when a system starts out as endogenic but gains so much trauma later on that they develop dissociative symptoms?

We're quoigenic because while yes we are diagnosed with DID:

DID does not have trauma in the diagnostic criteria so our diagnosis doesn't mean anything by way of origin. Nontraumagenic is not the same as nondisordered the same way that traumagenic isn't the same as disordered.

We cannot remember a time before we were plural so we cannot say with accuracy what our actual origin was.

We have headmates we consider to be from both traumagenic and endogenic origins and it feels unfair to pick one.

We don't owe anyone a quick little "hey, we have trauma!" flag on our pinned post which can easily paint us as a target. This is the exact reason we don't share our triggers online--it's not safe.

You don't owe anyone personal medical information including your diagnostic history, your trauma history or lack thereof, your current medications or how many times you've been in a hospital. That is your business and yours alone to decide who you share it with. It's downright dangerous to share some of it, especially so publically. So who is anyone online that clearly isn't your specific medical practitioner to decide whether your experiences are real enough to allow you into spaces meant for a usually completely unrelated thing? Why would someone holding the opinion that endogenic systems get to decide what labels they use be denied access to spaces just because they support people with differing beliefs and/or experiences?

If we as a system with multiple disabilities want to go into a space for people who are schizoaffective because we need others who won't immediately jump on the ableism train when discussing something we're diagnosed with that has so much stigma, should we be denied that just because we don't label our origin with a clear-cut "we are traumatized!!" label? Should we be denied access to spaces because we don't want to sit around and smile while parts of our system and other members of our community are called fake and evil and whatever else they come up with? It's so common in spaces for people with disabilities to be exclusive to traumagenic systems and people with an anti-endogenic mindset that people don't realise they're not only hurting the endogenic community, but literal chunks of their own community itself.

I can't even begin to understand the reason why.

Endogenic systems by just existing do not cause harm. They're not like a transphobe you would not be safe around by default of having a label. Not every nontraumagenic system is a saint but if you took any communtiy and called everyone in it the equivalent of an unproblematic holy angel, you'd be lying. People are bad in every community, some worse than others, but the nontraumagenic system community literally just wants to exist--and yes, sometimes a nontraumagenic system (or supporter of such) does have dissociative symptoms, or maybe they have autism, or maybe they're physically disabled. Should they be not allowed access just because of the way they chose to label their system, or their opinion of people picking their own labels for their personal identity?

What exactly is the reason they're so excluded everywhere? I'd try to assume that this level of exclusion (to the point of endos being on DNIs next to transphobes and racists) would mean there's some real harm being done on a community-wide scale, but even when looking for it there isn't any explanation we've been able to find. "They're fake" is all we seem to see which has no actual backing whatsoever. "They're harmful" is another but.. How? We might be looking in the wrong places, but we have never seen an actual explanation for how nontraumagenic systems cause harm as a community just by being themselves.

At this point, I have to wonder how many people who say "we care about real disabled people!" are just covering up their "we care about socially acceptable disabled people who I understand and/or do not find cringey" sentiment instead. Being neurodivergent should never be about fitting into tight little boxes--it's part of the whole point of having a community like this. You're not the majority, and that's okay. So why are we dividing the disabled community into boxes too?

Of course, this doesn't only apply to ND spaces. LGBT+ spaces are similar and even more divided from the concept of being a system that it makes even less sense to block nontraumagenic systems from entering the space. How does their system origin relate to their LGBT+ identity? Sometimes it can, but should a trans person be excluded from a trans space because they have a friend who is an endogenic system and they support them fully?

Overall, the main point is that it makes no sense whatsoever to be anti-endo in general, let alone so violently anti-endogenic system to the point where you hurt members of your own community due to it. Sometimes from something as simple as them supporting endogenics alone. Your safe spaces aren't actually safe if you exclude a nonharmful group who also belong in that space due to having a personal identity or opinion different to yours. If you want somewhere to be a safe, inclusive space, it should include everyone as long as letting those people in won't cause harm. People who are seeking to cause harm (racists, transphobes, etc) obviously do not belong in a safe space because they seek to harm others, thus making the space unsafe. But people who just want to be themselves without harming anyone should be included in your space if they fall under whatever it may be topic-wise. Even the "cringey" ones. Even the ones who don't quite make sense to you or have "contradicting" labels. Even the ones who use labels completely differently to the way you do. And even the ones who are uninformed or misinformed but trying their best to learn. Your safe space is not safe if it excludes those who do not follow your every single mindset and thought without any deviation.

[chaos-in-one]

Please tell me I'm not the only one who thinks it's fucking weird and insensitive how every single time a content creator gets outed as a shit person, you always get this group of systems who make the whole damn thing about themselves and their introjects related to that content creator

Like I get it sucks to find out your source/someone related to your source is awful. I'm literally an introject in that situation. But you're not your source. And when someone is outed as a bad person... most of the time there are actual victims. And making it about you instead of the people actually directly hurt by them is gross and insensitive. You aren't your source, and therefore, you aren't one of the victims or people directly related to the situation. You are a stranger on the internet to those people.

You're allowed to be upset but fellow introjects, please PLEASE learn to keep the focus on the victims when a content creator/celebrity/etc. is outed as a shit like an abuser or groomer

[oopsallsyscourse]

What the fuck is this syscourse back and forth we've been going on for like a week.

"Well, I find joy in my CDD!" "Well I struggle with mine!" OK, I do both. What about it?

We've got to stop treating like someone's personal experience is a direct attack on your own. Some CDD systems struggle more than others. Some are farther into recovery than others. Find a subgroup of people you can relate to and stop fighting. God damn.

Essay in the tags as usual.

[marbles-for-breakfast]

Thoughts/Arguments about Endogenic systems:

(for context, I’m probably best described as “quoigenic”, but I don’t really identify with any origin label because I think they ultimately cause more confusion than clarity)

Firstly, for those who don’t know, the term endogenic is about the narrative of your own existence. It was created by a diagnosed DID system which believes they were born plural and would have been plural regardless of the trauma they experienced. Whether you personally believe that to be true is your business, but I fail to understand how people think that idea is harmful, ableist or anything else. Not everybody wants to conceive of the origin of their existence in the same way. I don’t see anything wrong with that. Trying to force people to adopt a certain narrative about their own life doesn’t help anyone or prevent any sort of harm.

As far as willogenic systems go (because they’re under the endo umbrella, I’m pretty sure), I really don’t know enough about them to have a super definitive opinion. People seem to have mostly positive experiences with it, and it sure doesn’t affect me whether somebody I don’t know tries to make headmates through things like meditation. It’s obviously something quite different than DID, but I imagine it could work similarly in some ways, so I don’t really mind them using terms like ‘system’. I do understand the aversion to willogenics to some extent, though. I feel that sometimes too. And ultimately I think that’s because they get to make a choice that I wasn’t given. And they get to skip syscovery, and probably a lot of dissociation on top of that. It’s tempting to resent them, to assume they see it as a fun or frivolous thing, and are totally ignorant of our problems and suffering. But I don’t think that’s true.

They know what DID is. They know it’s usually caused by trauma, and often serious abuse. They know it is a serious disorder that can make life very difficult. They also know that they created headmates through meditation or something, and now they’re a system. Why should that upset us? Why do we think we own plurality just because we suffered more on the road here? Maybe you think they’re wrong about having headmates, but…. how would we know? Just because an experience isn’t accepted or understood by the field of psychology doesn’t mean it’s not happening. And I make a point to believe people about their own minds.

Just because they don’t have DID and have very different experiences to people with DID doesn’t mean they can’t acknowledge that those experiences do have some similarities. And it certainly doesn’t mean they can’t find community with OSDDID systems who want to normalize plurality itself in order to make life easier for all systems. It may seem “weird” to us, we might not understand it, but that doesn’t mean we should deny just because we originally learned that DID (and therefore plurality) can only form through extreme trauma. Aren’t a lot of the things we originally learned about DID wrong? Aren’t a lot of the things we assumed about it wrong? We, as a species, have never understood the human brain. Even doctors and educators make assumptions about what’s impossible without looking into it enough to prove that.

But when tons of people tell you they created headmates on purpose, and you don’t really have a reason to think they’re wrong other than “I don’t think that’s possible”, maybe it’s time to switch to, “idk how that works, but you do you”. It’s time to acknowledge that someone living their life in a way that you wouldn’t choose for yourself is actually completely fine. I mean, as long as they’re not hurting anybody obviously, but willogenics are not hurting anybody by being openly willogenic.

So yeah, endogenic systems are not inherently a threat to you or anyone else.

This post sums up my thoughts pretty well, so I might just refer people to it in the future. If you’re here from that, thanks for hearing what I have to say. I hope it helps you refine your worldview in some way. You don’t have to agree with everything I said here. I just hope you at least interact with people with more good faith (believing what they say until they give you a reason not to).