#Bruce can be as asshole

[rubydubydoo122]

I think the funniest thing about how the Fandom perceives Tim (especially obnoxious Tim fans) is that he is was deeply hurt by the actions Jason, Damian, and Dick have done to him, but lowkey that’s just the fandom projecting

Tim lowkey did not give a fuck. Maybe a little at first, but he definitely does not hold a grudge against any of them.

[insertcoolusernamehereee]

Who is the most stubborn Batboy?

If your answer is anything short of ‘all of them’ your biased and you know it.

Dick trained a killer to be Nite-Wing, to prove a point.

Jason became the mafia boss of Crime Alley, to prove a point.

Tim teamed up with Ra’s Al-Ghul, to prove a point.

Duke made a whole Robin-Gang, to prove a point.

Damian beat up The Joker with a crowbar, to prove a point.

And that’s not even all of there stubborn antics! There’s no ‘most stubborn’ or ‘most out of pocket’. They’re all batshit crazy. You can’t just choose one.

[littlefankingdom]

Where do y'all got your "Bruce doesn't care about Crime Alley and the poor" bs I have seen in more than half of the fics I have read about Jason and Bruce? Where?

First, there's literally an episode of Batman: The Animated Series about Crime Alley, about how badly the people there are treated, and how Crime Alley is Bruce's ultimate goal. Batman protects and saves the poor from being thrown away like trash by the rich (this show loves saying "rich people are the worst". Also, Bruce hates rich folks in the comics as well). He wants Crime Alley safe, not for the higher classes like the other rich wants, but for everyone. He wants the people in Crime Alley to be safe. He cares about them.

Crime Alley is literally WHERE HIS PARENTS DIED. How can he not care about Crime Alley? He's probably the first person to have shown interest in protecting Crime Alley in a while when he started, because the cops turned their back on them. He's the hope of a better life for Crime Alley folks. The day it will be safe again, when the people would be able to live freely there without fear of violence and misery, will be the day Batman's mission ends.

[anawrites3]

Sea god Slade steals Dick. Bruce stands on the beach yelling at the ocean.

One single wave separates from the rest and comes out to soak him perfectly and leave seaweed in his hair.

This is absolutely perfect kfhskdsjak lemme just-

Bruce was standing a few steps away from Dick when it happened - so close, yet not close enough to be able to do anything and stop his son from being stolen by the sea god. Everything happened so fast. One second they were walking along the shore, chatting and just enjoying each other’s company and the other Dick’s feet dipped into the water and it moved, wrapping around his waist and pulling him into the sea.

He saw the look on Dick’s face when the water started moving, the way his eyes widened in shock more than fear. He looked at Bruce, lips parting to plead for help or maybe just to scream, hand outstretched towards his own. Bruce reached for him without thinking, not knowing what would happen after he caught him - would the lord of the seas take him too, would he drown Bruce for trying to get in the way - but their hands never met. They didn’t even brush, being just a few centimeters apart before Dick got pulled into the ocean.

He had no way of even knowing what happened to his boy; would the sea god simply drown him for his entertainment, would he keep him as his plaything?

There was nothing he could do. Nothing but plead to the god to give him his son back.

“He doesn’t belong with you!” Bruce screamed at the ocean, the hum of waves muffling his words. “Give him back!”

For a moment nothing happened. Everything around seemed to quiet down for a few seconds and Bruce held his breath, awaiting the answer.

One of the waves separated from the rest and came out to soak him completely from head to toes, leaving seaweed in his hair.

From the middle of the ocean, deep deep in the waters, Dick tried not to laugh as he punched his lover in the arm.

[jasontoddenthusiastt]

I think fans want Jason to be a good person or be becoming one. To have a character that is well meaning and compassionate but decided murder is ok and to stand against main heroes who’s beliefs and actions go against the people he cares about and wants in his life. It’s confusing for people. People want their fav characters to be happy. But Jason can’t have his family’s support and follow his moral code. He’s cares about people and Gotham, and he’s an asshole who kills. It’s messy. It’s not black and white. I don’t even think Jason cares about being a good person or in the right anymore. I think he cares about what will save the most people instead.

Oh my goodness gracious I’ve been bamboozled

Batman’s definition of Good is not synonymous with absolute good/right no matter how much dc insists it is. Torture, battery/assault, surveillance, those are all condemnable actions too. I won’t get into the exhausting and frankly dumb debate of comic book morality wrt killing because I’ve already reblogged plenty of posts from other people who explained my thoughts on the matter far better than I ever have the patience to sit down and articulate. I also just think the notion that there’s something to be done about fictional characters who kill nazis and senseless murderers is stupid. Jason’s point is that the “main” heroes’ sanitized definition of right has its unaddressed holes and flaws which ultimately result in more preventable fatalities, and that he’ll work to correct those missing spots.

He doesn’t not care about doing what’s right. What he doesn’t care about (at least during his Winick characterization) is whether Batman thinks he’s right or wrong, because he sees the flaws in Batman’s methodology (and since he has a mind of his own). Batman’s methods alone cannot address Arkham’s revolving door and the rogues that come and go through those doors who have no intention (or capability from the doylist pov) of ever changing or undergoing redemption. Jason knows that he’s minimizing the number of preventable deaths by killing his targets, typically Characters Who Simply Do Fucked Up Shit Just Because, Why The Fuck Not?

Secondly, Jason is compassionate … to a fault. That was his fatal flaw. If he wasn’t so hell-bent on saving his potential birth mother he just met from that bomb despite everything she did to him prior, he could have protected himself instead, however slim his odds of survival were. What about his relationship with his other parents? He was a caregiver during his early childhood years for Catherine, until her death. Even mature adults who are financially stable find being a caregiver to a dying parent to be extremely burdensome on their bodies and minds, but he never complained about it or resented Catherine for being unable to care for him. Despite how none of his parents have really been what he needed them to be, he doesn’t blame them for their failings, and even continues to think highly of them (Bruce included).

And post-death? Enter Lost Days. Despite being dead set on plotting his revenge on Bruce, he constantly sidelines this in order to save other victims who are helpless like he once was. His own anger, trauma, and mission don’t remain his priority. (Sound familiar? Something something my own trauma above my son’s, mission above all else, etc.). Why would he waste precious time and risk his own life to do this if he wasn’t empathetic towards these victims or didn’t care about doing the right thing. He is simultaneously horribly traumatized and full of rage, and also incapable of ignoring what’s happening to victims around him (even as he claims that it’s indeed not his priority). And in that same vein, the entire premise of his rebirth outlaws run was that he doesn’t care if the public views him as a villain, an outlaw, so long as he can protect Gotham. And anyway where is this portrayal of him not caring about being in the right anymore. Almost every modern Jason story is about him grappling with where he stands with Bruce/Batman. During the early 2000s was probably the last time he did not care (hello, tentatodd??).

Jason has very evidently been portrayed as a kind and compassionate character. He is also simultaneously a calculated killer who doesn’t hesitate to kill when he deems necessary, and does so without remorse. It’s called being a Complex Character With An Edge™ that as you said, people so often claim to love. However when he fulfills that latter part, that seems to upset people because “killing bad”, and they then try to shave off and round out all his edges and claim he shouldn’t be that angry. In that case I guess you should just stick to liking traditional one-dimensional characters instead of claiming to like Jason but then encouraging his character assassination attempt by dc. Lol.

Lastly, who said anything about the batfam making Jason happy? Just because he’s written nowadays to want acceptance from Bruce (a shoddy attempt at forcing a non-existent nuclear batfamily), doesn’t mean that it’s a sound decision or that it does his character justice. I certainly don’t empathize with the idea that Jason needs the family’s approval or acceptance to be happy. (And anyway he has enough outlets for angst and pain aside from the batfam hello explore his other sources of trauma and do more deep dives into how he thinks when he’s alone). I don’t want them to magically make up and become one big happy family. This is not disney Lol. Besides, there are plenty of stories from dc that have that type of “wholesome” (hate that word utilization) characterization for Jason (Li’l Gotham, Tiny Titans, wfa, and even new stuff like the brave and the bold mini) and that is sufficient imo. Jason fans who are invested in the character deserve accurate, nuanced characterization and well-written stories, whether they be from his robin days (e.g., Batman: The Cult) or as red hood.

[drbatsponge]

Bruce Wayne characterization in Gotham War vs Batman and Robin.

[zeroducks-2]

I've just finished Gotham Knights and I get that people aren't happy with the fucked ass haircuts but like, I do believe this is the most progressive and well written Jason Todd we've ever gotten in recent times. Even in recent comics. Like damn, bro goes to therapy, picked up his interests and hobbies again (e.g. the cooking and the reading and the shit talking) from his "Robin makes me Magic" days. Like yeah, he's still edgy, but he was murdered by a fucking Clown, he's allowed to be edgy. We got a Jason Todd that isn't diluted to "the angry black sheep character" archetype. He's healing, working on himself, his relationship with his family, and he's fighting his way (brutal and all strength and tact) to do what he stands for and what he believes is right. And his heart is just so big and full of compassion, but it doesnt blind him and make him wishful or naive. He's so well balanced in Gotham Knights. I hope this version of his character is written in future comics. I'm sick of DC writers making him this angry anti-hero who's only reasoning and purpose in life is to get back at Batman for failing him and so many others. Jason is allowed to be more than his trauma. Thank you Gotham Knights for seeing that.

I'm glad you enjoyed the game anon. I personally am not a fan, not because of Jason but because of the game itself. The dialogues felt stale, more reminiscent of tumblr "incorrect Batfam quotes" than the source material, and the NPCs felt dull compared to how full of life they were in the Arkham series (so much so I would hide in random spots just to hear them talking about the current game events, especially in AK). The most unforgivable bit to me was Tim not having ever fought the rogues because he's "young" - I've never seen anything more insulting and infantilizing for a character which already heavily suffers for being treated as the useless one, never allowed to participate in the game changing dynamics or to have meaningful arcs, and is relegated to being the cute little bisexual twink.

That being said it's a matter of taste, and Gotham Knights is surely a good game for those who prefer a wholesome loving family approach to these characters. Jason working on himself and going to therapy and having a good relationship with his "family" is surely what lots of people (especially in here) want to see. Me, I don't think any amount of therapy would help since therapy is based on shared human experiences and repetition of patterns, and Jason died and dug himself out of his own grave. That's not a trauma any therapist would have the means to help with. They indeed "diluted" the event in the game, changed the fact that Jason dug himself out of his own grave and was functionally braindead and homeless for two years, and made it so UTRH never happened in order for therapy to make any sense, because there is no reconciliation possible with a parent that slit your neck to save the person who broke all your bones with a crowbar and then murdered you.

It's kinda like when Wally went to therapy (canonically) after Barry's death. The therapist was a good one and he tried! But ultimately he didn't manage to make a real difference because Wally is the Flash, a super-powered creature with time bending powers who does things on the scale of absurdity, and who also happens to have had an extremely traumatic childhood and to have just lost the only person who ever loved him unconditionally. His problems have roots in reality but are out of the scope of any therapy method currently known to man.

And Jason is more than his trauma, but pretending his trauma doesn't inform his actions and can be solved with him "working on himself" is not an approach I hope they take in comics. I'd rather they went back to Jason doing things his way and protecting the people of Gotham in the only manner he finds helpful, because he experienced on his own skin (twice!) that Batman's methods don't work. I'd rather they allowed him to stop clashing with Bruce as main theme of his stories, and have his own plotlines in which he's in between a vigilante and a mafia lord (which they were doing with Dick by the way, before chickening out and have Slade bomb Bludhaven) with Bruce only as a cameo sometimes.

We have a high number of morally irrepressible characters who always do the right thing more or less. I'd like Jason to be something different, something darker, because there is a dramatic lack of grey characters and anti-heroes which were sanded down to either 100% bad guys or 100% good guys. I hate that, why can't we have nuanced choices and people struggling with the darkness they carry, why does everyone need to be a perfect "unproblematic" paragon of goodness who would never do anything wrong. We have A LOT of characters like that and I love them, I really do! But if everyone and their families are like that then it's really frickin boring!

Plus, I'd like the characters to actually struggle with their past traumas in a meaningful way, otherwise why even giving them those traumas to begin with. Give me Tim still grappling with how he couldn't save his father, give me Dick haunted by all the times he slipped and let go of the no killing rule in a way or another, give me Jason haunted by the tragedy of being abandoned by every person who was supposed to protect him and working from there to being the protector of everyone else.

That's what I hope DC would pick up and write about. I was never much for fluff and wholesome things unless it's in small amounts, I always preferred strife and complexity. But hey, I'm glad you enjoyed the game, at least one of us did!

[mamawasatesttube]

i think, for me, a large part of why i refuse to accept edgy writers at dc trying to make batman an abusive parent (while ofc refusing to acknowledge that what they're writing is abuse) is that... the entire premise of the justice league, as a narrative tool, is that they are Good People. the second any of them turn a blind eye to one of their founding members abusing his kids, the superhero narrative falls apart. they can't be good people if they enable child abuse! this just turns them into, like, fucking cops. it doesn't WORK.

also like clark kent my good friend clark kent is the best man on the entire planet and he would not fucking say that. he would not be besties with a man who abuses his kids. and given that he is literally superman, it would be very hard to hide that from him. he would not fucking let that slide

but like. the entire concept of the dc universe where superheroes exist and we as an audience are supposed to root for them and believe in them. this falls apart when people go "actually, bruce hits dick and is extremely emotionally manipulative and etc etc etc". by all means let him fuck up, let him have flaws, and let him get things wrong, but to be a hero he fundamentally needs to be a good person. that's the entire point.

[just-an-enby-lemon]

Somedays I just go back to my silly idea of writing a fic where Scarecrow kidnaps Jonathan Sims during Sims visit to america - prefencially after Jon was already kidnaped by Trevor and Julia (everyone can abduct Jonathan Sims with very little effort).

Now I have a lot of reasons for that but mostly Jonny Crane deserves to know the world is controlled by fear entities and that he can even join one (or more since the division is rather arbitrary) and I NEED to write an universe where Elias can just contact Batman but doesn't until he realizes he might just lose the whole archive and a bit less the staff (except for Tim but at this point Tim barely counts as an employe for how little work he does) since Martin accidentaly discovered Jon was kidnapped AGAIN and Elias was hiding it AGAIN so now he, Georgie and Basira are making a questionable rescue plan and Daisy and Melanie begrundgly join for their girlfriends sake.

[kay-enemy]

Drunk Kay just had a thought....

The existence of Batman and his no-kill rule by nature assumes Gotham (and thus United States) has a functional prison system....

Therefore, Batman is propaganda for the for-profit prison system!

Further evidence for my anti-Batman agenda

[righteousruin]

made myself mad again thinking about writers who Miss The Point and how Bane was only on venom for like ~6 months in the comics but some writers decided it's his whole personality and he's just an Arkham Roid Rhino even though he passed the vibe check and didn't even go to Arkham even though his attorney begged him to plead insanity and go because he wouldn't face charges and he said absolutely not they're my crimes they're my charges they caught me slippin and that's on me and then not only stayed OFF of venom for the remainder of the pre-reboot comics but also actively destroyed networks that developed and distributed it, and then directly because of Batman's repeated radical compassion, dedicated his life to doing what he believed was right (even if it still involved murder) and actively protecting people he believed were innocent and helping people he thought needed help. Because he promised Batman he would do better. BeCAUSE OF BATMAN SHOWING HIM THAT WAS AN OPTION.

[cainware]

I saw a post on tiktok earlier today talking about how someone wondered who they would've been if they weren't the oldest daughter and if maybe they'd like themselves then, and I got me thinking about Dick Grayson.

Do you think he ever wonders that himself? Do you think that some small part of him, while fine with life as it is, wonders what life would be like if he had been the only Robin? Or came after someone else? Do you think he wonders who he'd be if maybe Jason or Damian had been older, been the first of the sidekicks, and he'd become his own sidekick after?

I know it's mentioned before somewhere that he wonders what life would he like if his parents had never died, but I can't stop thinking about a Dick Grayson that maybe doesn't like himself as much as he would have everyone believe. A Dick Grayson who, beneath everything else that builds him up into this bigger, sprawling multi-dimensional picture, has a very core part of himself that just... doesn't like who he is all that much.

And it's not to say he hates himself, nothing that extreme. But he's gone through his fair share of trauma, he's gone through his own fair share of grieving in silence and trying to make his father-figure happy at the cost of his own happiness.

He's developed eldest daughter syndrome, in no small part to the fact that he went from having two parents that loved and cared about him and had a semblance of normalcy, to being the oldest in a gaggle of other people that went through the first trials of trying to make Bruce happy. And only after years of being put through the wringer did he begin to understand that nobody can make Bruce happy, not even him, and he had to let go for many reasons.

I don't know, I just wonder sometimes (as the oldest sibling myself) if Dick ever had to mourn who he could've been if maybe he'd just come a little later, if maybe he'd come into the picture after someone else or if maybe Bruce would love him more if he were a younger sibling, even though he knows Bruce loves him anyway. But as an older sibling, sometimes it feels... hard, seeing your younger siblings have a better time of it than you did because your father is better equipped to handle it. He just wasn't prepared when he had you. And that's okay, because Dick knows Bruce tried, but it doesn't change the fact that sometimes it still hurts. But, in true older sibling fashion, I don't think Dick would ever let on to that or mention it. He'd rather die.

[starlooove]

So many batfans hate Hal bc fics use him as a scapegoat to be an asshole

[bluegarners]

you know what. dc SHOULD let bruce’s children beat him up more. as a treat. stomp that old man <3

[spite-and-waffles]

One thing about me is that I would feed Bruce Wayne into a trash compactor with considerable relish.

[browniesarethebest]