#The bullshit that was Robin vs batman

[oifaaa]

Honestly with the amount of bullshit dc puts Jason through I think the very least they could do is make him the tallest bat

[5nake-eater]

Iconic of Chip Zdarsky to begin his Batman run by stressing that Bruce isn’t alone, he has a loving family and plenty of friends who will come to his side in his hour of need

[fantastic-nonsense]

Who would win a fight? Redwood or Nightwing?

While I am mostly aware of Nightwing's fighting prowess and skills(via many Tumblr metas, yours included), I have nothing on Redhood

This inquiry appeared because of a YouTube video that was telling about Vampire! Nightwing and Redhood's fight and at the end, Redhood said that he knew he would've won if Wonder Woman didn't help Nightwing (which I call bullshit). Many comments were glazing Redhood. So despite not believing how Redhood would've taken enhanced Nightwing in a fight when normal one is so op, I wanted to know the opinion of a comics reader

I also know how DC vs vampires is like a fanfiction story, undermining many characters, but still that inquiry grew beyond. Who would win? Canon!Redhood or Canon!Nightwing?

Nightwing would win.

Source: Nightwing: Brothers in Blood, Batman: Battle for the Cowl, Grant Morrison's Batman and Robin run, New 52 Nightwing, Batman and Robin Eternal, Task Force Z, etc etc etc.

[brucewaynehater101]

I've been reading your blog since I stumbled upon it and gotta say I love your ideas and the way you expand on asks.

I've been having some thoughts on Brightest vs Darkest future Batfam. For the Brightest future we are looking at a timeline where Bruce got some therapy and he's actually a decent dad by the time we reach current day. This doesn't completely erase the arcs where characters suffer, but he handles things a little bit better. The kids still have issues with him but they understand that he's trying now and they want to give him a second chance.

Now some time of magic bullshit conjures to this version of Gotham the worst versions of each of them. All coming from different dimensions where Bruce is the worst to them specifically. Some may have even killed their version of the Bat and won't waste the opportunity to do so again. Suddenly, they are forced to fight against

Talon Dick Grayson, who is not only an extremely skilled killer, he's cult leader levels of manipulative. He may even pretend to ally himself to the bats at first just so he can actually get his claws in and make it hurt later on.

Catatonic/Pit mad Jason who never got his own mind back. A league level ninja with only the flashes of his worst memories. We are talking "might nuke Gotham if he had the cognitive function to plan it out". His Bruce is not that much different than canon Bruce, the main difference being he refuses to accept RH is Jason, making him regress more and more into pit madness to the point of fully losing it.

Evil Jane Doe Tim that absolutely (and deservedly) snapped at B after everything he put Tim through while never asking his siblings for the same sacrifice. Maybe he was also JJed in his timeline and is the single most unsettling, cunning, motherfucker. He just keeps fucking with the Batfam from the shadows and they can't find the source.

Silent assassin Cass that simply can't be reasoned with because she has no way to communicate outside body language. Not only is she capable of beating Batman's ass without breaking a sweat she's also very hard to catch even with all the Batfam going after her (very much you can kill me or you can let me go, but you're not catching me)

Usurper Damián, similar to canon Damian but completely cut off from any external support (including Dick) due to Batman's paranoia. Bruce punishes him without explaining where he went wrong. No positive reinforcement at all, no encouraging of proper socializing. He doesn't get out of his brain washed mentality and comes to the conclusion that his father is weak. So he kills Tim Drake, frames Red Hood and takes over Robin. He feeds his father paranoia and eventually takes over Batman too because his father doesn't deserve it. He might take over the league afterwards too, because if Ra's respected someone as weak as the Bat maybe he shouldn't have his cult.

I just think it would be just so deliciously angsty for the happiest version of the Batfam being forced to confront these awful possibilities. I can also see Talon/Jane Doe/Usurper trying to convince their other selves of joining them, explaining just how awful Bruce is, even if this version is not as bad as theirs. How Dick/Tim/Damian might struggle to disagree or defend Bruce's past actions. How devastating it would be for Jason and Cass to face a very real possibility. Someone they can't even reason with, reduced to an almost animal state by forces outside their power.

And of course Bruce. A version of Bruce that had actually realized he'd been failing his kids and started working on making things up to them being forced by the ghosts of his failure. Would he completely close off and give into paranoia? (If these versions of his kids are evil, what's stopping his own kids?). Going into denial mode and erasing his progress? ("See? I've done nothing wrong, you guys turned out fine compared to them). Does he give in to grief and his martyr complex, more focused on his failings than trying to fix things? I imagine in a good ending version this event would solidify his resolve, understanding the weight of his failings as a father and as Batman. After fixing the timeline issue he would have to work not only on being better, but acknowledging his past mistakes and giving his kids the space to stay mad/express why that hurt them.

But outside that one good ending? The Bat is fucked. Especially with greatest manipulator Talon, master of puppets Jane Doe and (possibly) literal cult leader Damian getting into their heads. Hell Jason doesn't need to be told twice to turn on his father again after being reminded of how he screwed not only him but his siblings up. Cass might be loyal to Bruce but if Oracle switches sides she might start reconsidering.

Just fucked up Batfam haunting their canon selves and forcing them to admit even "nice" canon Bruce has traumatized them severely.

Hello!!!! Glad you enjoy my blog! I particularly love how people share their ideas, and it inspires others to add on or share other ideas.

So! Let's develop this AU a bit more.

We've got Dick, Cass, Jason, Tim, Damian, and their counterparts. If you wanted, we could add Barbara and Steph counterparts as well. Bruce's "evil" self never appears in this dimension, but his evil selves are part of what created the "villians" that do appear.

As far as timeline, this is after Damian appears. For Damian's angst, I think he should be Robin. Tim and him have worked past their issues regarding the change in mantle, and the older one has even said he was proud that Damian was the one to wear his mantle (which makes what F!Damian did even worse).

Imma use F!Batfam for the counterparts to indicate the fucked up ones.

No matter what the others say about Bruce, F!Bats will not believe that he is a decent father and man. There's several reasons for this. One, all F!Bats come from separate universes where Bruce was a horrible person. Two, the man is exceptional at mind games and deception. Three, if Bruce was capable of change with just some therapy, what does that say about their lives with their Bruce?

I wanted to add on to Talon Dick's lore. I hc that, after he becomes a talon, he slowly manipulates and murders his way up to the top of the Court of Owls. From there, he kills off weaklings and creates his own cult/rule. He is a very fucked up person, morally and mentally, but he believes that he's enacting some sort of good with his power. Through his cult that preaches acceptance and love, people flock to his "goodwill" and "grace." His Bruce, which has proven to be a horrible man with the way he dehumanized this Dick, kept hurting Dick and getting in his way. Dick had to kill him.

I really wanted F!Damian and F!Dick to be cult-ish leaders, with the parallels of them revamping an ancient order for their own desires.

For F!Jason, he can communicate and plan. He's stealthy, deadly, and tactful. His Pit Madness and rage, however, make it impossible to communicate or convince him from whatever he deems is appropriate. Even if it's impractical, such as making displays out of his enemies' bodies, he will not be deterred from his judgments and wants.

F!Tim could have similar tendencies as F!Dick to manipulate, but he's not as skilled as that man is emotionally. He's ruthless and toys with his enemies, drawing out their pain and misery in creative new ways (some part of him curses Joker and JJ for that). No one was on his side, so he'll never allow for anyone to be. All of the F!Bats hurt the OG family, but Tim was failed repeatedly by the Bats. JJ may have helped, but it was F!Tim's batfam that twisted the kid into an unsettling creature waiting to draw out suffering for his own amusement.

I can add more for the others (or create some for Babs and Steph) if you want.

However, more angst real quick to add would be watching their F!Batfam recommit their faults against OG batfam. By that, I mean OG Jason watching as F!Jason slits Tim's throat.

Stuff like watching the worst version of yourself recommit deeds you've already worked to beg forgiveness for. Yikes.

[aingeal98]

Re: your post about Tim vs Steph's treatment as Robin, I've had an inarticulate theory rolling around in my head for a while now that the REAL divider between the relatively uncontroversial robins in mainstream fandom (Tim and Dick) and the controversial, 'bad kid' robins (Steph, Jason and Damian) is- leaving aside social and contextual factors for a minute and just focusing on characterization-...the fact that they're the robins who refuse to lick Batman's wounds, in a sense. They're rarely there to comfort him when he's being an angsty jerk. After all, they're the kid in this relationship, they need his guidance or at least cooperation, why should they go above and beyond when he's being difficult? Versus Dick and Tim who definitely have breaking points with bruce but who sit through a lot of bullshit with the guy and generally consider it their responsibility to make sure he's okay. <- that summary isn't necessarily a 1 to 1 reflection of how each Robin thinks, it's just broad strokes from my pov as a reader btw

Idk, there's probably a better, more comprehensive way to look at it, but I think about this a lot. Like bc Batman is the main character of the whole mythos, good robins are the ones who kiss his booboos, and bad robins are the ones who need that kind of comfort and patience for themself.

I think there's a lot of textual evidence backing this up tbh. Dick and Tim are without a doubt the "parentified" Robins who consider it their responsibility to deal with Batman's bullshit as opposed to making Batman deal with them. And there's nothing inherently wrong with displaying the different roles children end up filling in toxic families but far too many writers glorify it as a good thing. A thing that makes a Robin Good and Smart and it's like well no! The people buying into his bullshit and enabling him the most are actually doing the least good in terms of healthy long term growth for Batman! And that's fine if you're writing batman as a cycle of abuse forever spiralling and getting worse but when the narrative clearly thinks licking his boots is the right thing to do and anyone that doesn't is silly and childish and not fit to be a hero... Yeah it's sucks.

Like stories where batman does something incredibly cruel and stupid that makes everyone doubt him (instead of just. Communicating.) and then his plan ends up working and all the Robins and heroes that defended Batman for being an asshole are hyped up by the narrative because WE never doubted Batgod! He always knows best! Yeah I hate those stories.

So yeah, fully agree with your analysis. Thanks for the ask!

[cosmicmordecai]

I’ve said this before but just to expand what I was saying earlier regarding Zatanna’s not necessarily being “de-aged” to be with Dick Grayson in YJ. In comics, Zatanna was moreover aged up to be closer to Batman.

Dependening on the stories, Zee starts off her heroism at 18-21. Sometimes she joins the JL after years of searching for her father or around the same time.

[Secret Origins v2 #27 - Recounted through Dr. Mist, who reveals being the mastermind behind her father & her upheavals in life by force via Felix Faust. In the story, he does realize how fucking creepy and patronizing his actions were.]

[ Justice League of America #51 - This story places her at 20 years old when she finally reunited with her father and joins the JL a short time later. But this story makes it seem like she was an orphan rather than raised by her father for a chunk of her childhood.]

[ DCU Heroes Secret Files & Origins #1 - This timeline would imply that she joined the JL first at 21.]

All these sources came prior to her history with Batman, which would naturally move her timeline to make her adjacent with him prior.

[Compared that to Dick, whom she met alongside the Titans in Tales of the Teen Titans #4 in the 1980s. By then, Dick was already college bound with high school graduation [Batman #217]or a teenager depending on your context, placing him roughly 16-18 give or take. This same series in which the picture above has him retire the Robin name in #39, which modern stories typically have that done at 18 years old.]

I think it’s very important to note that Zatanna’s character has changed overtime and that there’s no definite “Justice League generation” vs other generations of heroes. There’s not this neat little box where every DCU character conveniently fits in.

The Titans might fit in the “heroes in their 20s” box and the Teen Titans feature heroes younger than 18 but even then, some TT reached 18+ [Red Devil] and there’s been a plethora of heroes in their 20s in the JL [Kyle Rayner, Khalid Nassour, Ronnie Raymond/Jason Rusch]. Just like the JSA has younger members & successors who join, the JL features membership of varying ages.

[I literally forgot the source of this.]

I understand the basis makes it seem like Zatanna is infantalized but that’s not necessarily true. The character wasn’t always Bruce’s childhood friend and at one point, only met significantly in the JL to Batman’s own recollection. & one other time where she was disguised as a witch unknown to Bruce himself long before the retcon that made them childhood friends came to be.

It’s also hard to say “Zatanna has to be around this age bc she hangs out with so-and-so” because characters like Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman has had their histories altered in many ways. Barry Allen’s age has never been stated so using his interest in her as an age gauge is iffy and honestly, in real life, people have relationships, flirtations, and friendships with people older and younger than them. Part of adulthood is meshing with people & it’s not always convenient that you’ll be friends with people your own age. Interpersonal relationships are also multi-faceted and complex.

I also think it’s sets a bad precedent to not examine the character’s history and go off of the “idea” of where characters are instead of their history. Various DC characters already get this:

Billy Batson is always like 10 or 12 when people think of him but like he’s been 15 & 16 too. His relationship with Courtney Whitmore for example happened when he’s in high school himself. He is also chronologically older than Jon Kent regardless of space bullshit.

Raven & Beast Boy’s character get de-aged to the point they’ve been in Dick, Tim, and Damian’s version of the Teen Titans in media & comics.

Jaime Reyes remained eternally in high school until recently and it took a movie to budge him from that.

Stephanie Brown & Cassandra Caín are out here having Damian be closer to them in age because editorials, writers, and fanon completely forget both characters have been 18 far longer than anybody thinks.

Khalid Nassour debuted in 2015 already 23 years old & a year older than DICK GRAYSON IN THE SAME YEARS. Nowadays, he’s drawn as a teen/college age guy and his timeline either implies he’s in his 30s now or in 2023, all his 100+ appearances took place in ONE YEAR so therefore, everyone he interacted with also progressed one year overtime?

Long story short, it’s really important in my opinion to consider a character’s history and not just go off of whose their friend is, what you think their idealized version is like, and do not use the characters whose timeline DC & Didio has outright played Russian Roulette with accommodate their idealized version of the characters as a placeholder.

[alfredsolos]

So I finally got the break I needed to read Batman vs Robin #5. And I have... mixed feelings about it.

For context (and to summarize what happened), at the end of issue 4 Nezha posesses Batman and kidnaps Damian:

Nezha demands Damian to tell him where King Fire Bull (his son) is, since he was the last one to see him. Damian, however, does not know where King Fire Bull is. But Damian acts like he does and tells Nezha to release him so that he can take him to his son. Nezha let's him go, and Damian gets his chance to escape.

Damian gets on a motorbike and drives away as Nezha chases him. Which then Monkey Prince shows up to help him. They manage to get away together.

But then, Monkey Prince reveals that the only way to beat Nezha is to get him back to his human body. But this would, in the end, cause Batman to die.

Damian has a strong will, though. And he tells Monkey Prince that he is ready.

And at this point, I knew that Batman would die and get revived by some magical bullshit as a 'plot twist'. However there were a few things that I hadn't expected, happen.

Anyways, Damian informs his family that they needed to put Nezha back to his own body and then contain him. He doesn't tell them that Batman would die, though.

'They don't need to know who has to die tonight'

Sounds very omnious, and will probably end up bad. That's what we can all gather.

Anyways, the final fight against Nezha happens and Damian -with the help of Monkey Prince and his siblings- manages to restrain Batman for Enchantress to work her magic.

The spell is succesful, Nezha returns to his body and Batman dies.

At this point, I'm waiting for the magical plot twist to happen and bring Batman back to life. But then we get this:

Remember the quote I wrote a few panels back.

'They don't need to know who has to die tonight'

I realized that Damian meant himself. He had been planning all along to sacrifice himself for his father. I don't know why I was surprised. Maybe because most DC writers write and treat him so horribly that it's surprising when he does things like this.

Anyways, everyone is shocked obviously. But Damian does not back down and tells them to hurry up before his father's soul dissappears. He tells them that the world needs Batman more than it needs him:

But then Enchantress tells him that it's not enough. The magic had destroyed Batman's body so that he'd need more than one soul.

And so we get the magical 'plot twist' that I've been telling you about. Damian and Oracle make a broadcast and tells the people of Gotham that Batman needed their help.

He tells them to look at the Bat Signal and basically say 'We Are Batman' to transport a part of their soul to Batman.

A bit cheesy, in my opinion. But it works. Batman wakes up and looks for Damian. In the end we get this sweet panel:

Honestly, it was pretty obvious that something like this would happen (after we learned that Batman needed to die). So I wouldn't call it a plot twist, really.

But other than that, I liked how they characterized Damian. It was a good read in contrast to the previous issues where he was the 'Evil Batman'.

I liked Damian's relationship with Monkey Prince and his weird little querrals with Nezha.

I guess he is back to being Robin (?) Because in the last panel, it shows them patrolling Gotham together. But Tim is also Robin, so I don't know where they are going with this.

Anyways, did you guys like it or not?

[sadboytournament]

ROUND ONE

Propaganda

Adriane Tepes/Alucard: Bro's mom got murdered and his dad went insane and tried to wipe out humanity, and Adrian had to kill him to save everyone. AND THEN he had to deal with people trying to revive his dad to cause even more deaths! Also he's immortal so he's outlived everyone he's ever cared about 😭

Jason Todd: (tw: sexual assault mention) the second robin, gets taken in by bruce after his abusive dad walks out and his mum dies of an overdose (and he also steals the wheels of the batmobile, king). bruce trains him to be robin and for his original run he was a pretty cute kid (with the occasional Angst Arcs that are pretty common w robin - special shoutout to jason finding out his dad was actually killed by two face and he just didnt know, and an arc where a woman that reminds him of his mum gets raped by a guy that iirc has diplomatic immunity i think?? or enough power to get away with it? anyway jason fucking kills him so not that immune ig) then death in the family happened and jason found out his mum isnt his biological mum so he sets off trying to find his bio mum, and eventually he meets her, but shes working for the joker and sells jason out to him. the joker then proceeds to beat jason with a crowbar and blows the building hes in up with his mum also inside it, killing them both. dc then does a fun thing for the next 20 years where they start treating jason like the '"""troubled""" """angry""" robin who was too reckless and was always going to end up dead. eventually dc brings jason back (as dc is wont to do), by having him wake up inside his coffin years after dying, dig his way out with his bare hands, and walk half-dead in the general direction of wayne manor until he's hit by a car and taken to the hospital (where all his says is 'bruce' over and over, and when asked who bruce is he responds 'my dad' and passes out) eventually he ends up in talia al ghul's care and is dunked in a lazarus pit to revive him completely, and he finds out not only is the joker still alive, but batmans also replaced him as robin. jason returns to gotham as red hood and has an honestly pretty slay arc where he taunts bruce by doing a better job of cleaning up gotham than him ngl. eventually it all culminates with him luring batman to a building where hes keeping the joker and telling b that his no kill rule is bullshit, and he shouldve killed the joker for taking jason away from him. he gives bruce an ultimatum thats basically if you dont kill me ill kill the joker, you gotta pick' and bruce chooses to instead disarm jason and save them both, and jason escapes. what follows is a lot of ups and downs for red hood comics (mostly due to the "angry robin" narrative dc writers have spun, making a lot of jasons appearances wildly ooc fights, lots of weird (tragically in character) cringefail behaviour, and this odd period where hes a natural redhead and his helmet is this ugly dome). itd be too long to list every jason todd sadboy moment from the last 20 years here but i do want to give a special shoutout to a currect story arc where bruce (who thinks hes being controlled by a 'perfect batman' hes got in his head) gets sick of jason's """reckless behaviour""" and fucking alters jasons brain chemistry so that whenever his adrenaline rises, he'll have a panic attack so severe hes basically incapacitated and can barely speak through his fear (the instant he escapes bruce's captivity he jumps into a burning building to save a little girl im SOFT for him!!). also second special shoutout to the jason todd in the arkham games who didnt even have the luxury of dying at the jokers hand, and was instead tortured for like 3 years, branded, beaten by p much everyone in batmans rogues gallery (and some of jokers goons dressed as batman), eventually jason breaks himself out only to find out that NOT ONLY has bruce replaced him, but it took the man like. a month. like jason wouldnt be thought dead for a long time, he was missing and bruce just went 'ill let this new kid adopt himself' ig? also theres a vr game in the arkham series where you can go into arkham asylum and hear jason screaming 🙃

[rezonan]

Batman #137 and Gotham War

Maybe it's cause I'm not American so I don't get the whole 'eat the rich' stuff I see a lot but I'm not really a fan of Catwoman's sanctioned breaking and entering being justified just because the victims are privileged, it's still freaking home invasion, I've had people I know die from heart attacks because of that stuff, not fun reading and seeing the batfamily look at it and go

Hurts

Not to mention it kinda just feels out of character how they all confronted Bruce IMO. C'mon I can buy *maybe* if they pushed characterization Jason and Steph(and that's a big maybe) but Dick and CASS(?) ?!. It's giving me Civil War Iron Man Vs Captain America vibes where personalities have to be changed in weird ways to get the storyline to even work.

So yeah not a fan. If anything it pisses me off. But I'll just calm down and try and understand this is some kind of cultural dissonance and I'm not getting what the writer is going for.

And this isn't to say I'm all on Bruce's side. The storyline for the past year now has been his spiralling mental health so he's obviously not in the right mind but I do think he's generally right, this is all bullshit.

Also not sure how this plan works. They are only so many rich people in Gotham, they can just leave because they have the money to do it. Seems like a lost cause. Not a fan of Selina boiling down Bruce's crusade to buying gadgets... Just no, no. If anyone she should be stealing from The Criminals, and the organized crime people. Canonically speaking they have hurt Gotham more. I don't buy the crime is down line.

Also that

Selina is not reforming criminals she’s training them so now they are even more effective at their jobs. The rich will start killing these dudes by hiring worse criminals to protect themselves, a woman already killed one of them out of fear in the last joker issue. What happens when one of the bigger villains get wind of this Selina plan? It feels like the book is acting like the thugs are the only issue in Gotham. Nope

Reading the last Joker issue makes it worse, Selina has gathered of of Gotham's criminals, Joker is back and is pretty fucking dangerous. I can see a serious blood bath happening tbh. But that's a stretch

ALSO AGAIN

The Court of owls are still a thing so there's that. But whatever

This entire story feels like a 17 year old trying to be deep and talk about how the real crime is class warfare. I can tell since I'm 17 myself lol

Oh my god, I don't know how the bat line is going to recover from this without it looking like an Asspull. It's reaching if not surpassed mid 2000s DC in levels of shit that is happening, infinite crisis barely saved it imo. At the end of this you'll probably have Damian and Bruce being isolated as Batman and Robin and the rest of the bat family doing whatever the fuck they would be doing (NW has the titans to lead I guess)

So yeah just not a fan. Happy to hear some thoughts on it though. Always open to alternate opinions

[ragnarokhound]

re: your tags on the jason’s anger post~

hard agree!! i will read reconciliation fics bc like… i do enjoy them getting to be a happy family/group but ultimately, i am firmly in the Jason Todd Was Right camp, &. serious work would need to be done for him to ever actually be part of the family again, bc the actual roots of his issues run DEEP. (and again! he has points!!)

and also same again on like… if i mention the batfamily dynamics in my fics, with the exception of au’s, jason’s relationship with bruce especially is still at least a little strained. he’s a member but also kind of an outsider and maybe he has complicated feelings on that sometimes but ultimately it’s bc his convictions / beliefs run deeper than his need /want of acceptance / belonging.

anyway sorry to dump a rant in your inbox but, i loved your tags & wanted to reply 💞

OUUGHH YES THO!! THANK YOU FOR RANTING, ALWAYS RANT IN MY INBOX STAY IN THIS SPACE WITH ME <333

(I'm about to have a mini-rant of my own, and disclaimer, it's largely informed by my terrible foundation of the UTRH movie + fandom osmosis + the occasional page/panel drop/arguments from other fans skdndndj sO GRAIN OF SALT THE SIZE OF RHODE ISLAND: )

Because yes yes absolutely! It would take serious work on Both sides for Jason to be brought back into the fold. They would both need to want it, and someone would have to be willing to bend on what they are ok with letting slide. Bruce would have to allow Jason his independence and divergence in philosophy; Jason would have to make concessions to Bruce's hard anti-murder stance.

There would have to be compromise, and reparations of some kind. They would have to actually talk and be able to listen. Apologies exchanged (mostly from Bruce because lmao) and a bunch of stuff people with the whole picture could probably tell me better lmao. ALL HARD ASKS

Because yes yes yes!! Jason's convictions and his beliefs ABSOLUTELY run deeper than his desire for acceptance. That's not-so-low-key the biggest obstacle for both him and Bruce in their ever reconciling. It's why Talia was able to manipulate him at all (idk the specifics of that, but details), it's why he hatched a deeply convoluted plan to get back at Bruce and the Joker and fuck over Black Mask in one fell swoop.

He wanted to confront Bruce with the consequences of letting Joker run around even after committing a deeply heinous and personal crime. Show him that taking a more intense and hands on approach and cracking down HARD on the crime families in Gotham would have more immediate results than what Bruce did. And that's not even getting into the Robin stuff yet lol

I don't personally agree per se with Jason's stance on murder and crime fighting lmao - but I also think he has a goddamn point, especially in this universe. In the world of batman, where death can be impermanent and supervillains pull all kinds of heinous, torturous bullshit, Jason has a lot of righteous and justified anger about how Bruce does things, on top of his hurt and betrayal over how both he and his death were treated.

Bruce's stance makes sense to me too, in a 'everyone deserves a second chance' and 'no one is beyond redemption' and 'its a slippery slope' perspective. But at some point you have to wonder about accountability. About what's acceptable. When the Joker is an unrepentant, murderous, sadistic criminal who has demonstrated that he cannot be adequately jailed or rehabilitated, what do you do? Do you ever give up on him? When is enough enough? Is the death penalty ever justifiable?

It's what makes Jason vs Bruce's arguments interesting and tragic to me, because from Jason's perspective, he is seeking retribution for himself as a victim. He is an avenger for victims failed by the system as it stands. And the system fails a lot of people. It needs to change. (And it's something being felt very strongly by a lot of people rn IRL which makes Jason's ideals v sympathetic.)

But from Bruce's perspective, Jason has given up. He has lost hope in the inherent goodness of people. He no longer seeks to find the good in people; he has decided that there exists instead a sharp dichotomy, that there is such thing as a bad person who deserves to die for what they've done, and for being bad. As opposed to seeing deeply injured people who need help, even when you find them repulsive. Rotten work, that.

Bruce sees the end of the path that Jason is on, and it's a bullet that Jason puts in his own brain - because if there are good people and bad people, and bad people deserve to die... won't Jason lump himself in with the bad people eventually? (I am once again standing on my 'Jason Todd wants to die on some level' soapbox)

Anyway, all this to say - there is a sharp divide in Bruce and Jason's methods/beliefs that makes their reconciliation impossible if neither of them is willing to budge. And when they both see budging as a terrible thing to do, a failure to the very people they are dedicating their lives to protecting...well.

It's gonna take a lot of angst and a lot of work.

[scorchedhearth]

I've seen many "if you could change Jason's story, how would you change it." post from many people and i always like your takes about Jason so i was wondering what your version would be like

i wouldn’t change it, at least not in any major way, because what i like about jason is the turned-wrong story and his anger as red hood. i have no interest in robin!jason or jason never died aus because his death and resurrection are the most entertaining part of the character to me. i would change the way it is told, the classicism in how his story was treated and the ‘jason was an angry robin’ narrative you see in current canon because it’s bullshit and the tragedy of his story works only if he was a normal and kind child who was robbed of his chance of a happy future

i would keep pretty much all of his backstory, parents who try their best to raise and love him but fall prey to their poverty, a father falling into crime to help bring money and a mother falling into addiction and struggling with it and taking care of the family and the both of them eventually dying because of that. i’d keep jason living in the streets of gotham, him jacking the batmobile’s wheels, helping bruce with a robbery, being taken into the manor, and eventually becoming robin. he would keep the good relationships with everyone there, dick included, do well in school and live an as normal and happy life as possible.

i know jason’s death was controversial at the time but i’d keep that too, and how it went down, him feeling restless over the months preceding it, with all the findings he does about his family as well as struggling with his sense of justice and what they do with the gotham justice system as batman and robin (thinking about the garzonas case and gloria stanson and how he sees the victims before a legal system that won’t do enough, will never do enough, because imo that ties nicely into the current views he has on justice and the ethics of vigilantism and crime-fighting which are an extreme version of an answer of those questions he had as robin), trying to find his mother, saving her, being tricked, all that is good.

i’d keep the lost days and utrh red hood characterization because i think it’s good, i like jason’s hypocrisy and over competence and i like how his goal blinds him and makes him obsessive, i like how ruthless he is and the fact that he’s an unlikable asshole who messes with people he cares about. i like this take on crime fighting and vigilantism and i think you can do many interesting things with it in a story, especially put in contrast with how heroes traditionally act, the whole ‘ill control crime because you can’t stop it, that’s the right way’

the only major change i’d bring is in utrh and specifically the ending because i don’t think bruce would do that, i don’t think he’d cut his son’s throat over the joker. and as much as i’d love to have bruce kill the joker and see the fallout of that, mainly how pointless it all is and how it doesn’t solve any of jason conundrum and his anger and grief and would instead leave everyone dissatisfied (your dad did this to appease you only because you asked him to, is it truly genuine? can you take this as proof enough of his love if you pushed him to? vs. bruce struggling with having taken a life and how this jason isn’t the son he used to know), as much as i’d want to see that i ultimately don’t think bruce would do it and more importantly i don’t want him to because batman is the no kill rule and the no gun rule, those are fundamental to his character

i do like the movie ending more because of this: bruce turns around and in the same breath turns a blind eye to whatever will happen and is ready to let jason do it, to let him kill the joker which is a good compromise to the ultimatum he put on the table and also doesn’t solve anything because yeah, the joker is dead, great, but a/ bruce didn’t do the one thing jason thought would prove his love for him, so it’s disappointing to him and still make him feel like it wasn’t enough, that he's not loved enough and shows him he'll never get what he wants from bruce and b/ bruce will never get his son back because this killing of the joker in front of him would burns any bridges between them and solidifies the death of his son to him, thus sticking them further in this looping spiral of grief for people who are very much alive but dead to them, people they used to know and still see when looking at each other even if they don’t exist anymore and will never be real again

so jason got what he wanted and still everyone involved has lost and dealing with that aftermath for everyone involved will be fun, bruce struggling to accept this new jason and even treating him as a villain for lack of a better idea about how to deal with this situation and jason growing increasingly pissed with bruce and still doing things like the ollie and mia attack or going to mess in bludhaven with dick, except its not from a place of ‘see me and accept me’ but ‘see me and suffer from witnessing who i am’ towards bruce

the other change i’d have is progressively making him less focused on bruce and more on gotham after the confrontation. i think the daddy issues are important for his comeback, it’s why he does this in the first place, but after the terrible revelation that he has lost his father for good and he’ll never get him back and the subsequent acting out and making him suffer for it because man, that frontal lobe was not finished developing, i want jason to distance himself from the batfam as an entity and focus more on gotham and being the other side of bruce’s coin. he has as many rights to fight for the city as bruce and it would be interesting to see them clash over being in the same city given their different backgrounds and views on justice. i do want to see his unhealthy attachment to the city on pages and how it influences him, how he can never stay away for long and will never leave it. and there’s the whole ‘hate is the other side of love’ and jason growing neutral about bruce and the batfam, having cordial work relationships where no one tries to reach out anymore would hurt even more than the desperate attempts at gaining attention and love

as for what comes after that, i’ve got this post and i still stand by this for what i want for jason as a character in current comics, i think he works better cut off from the batfam as a unit and acting as an antagonist/a character to put in opposition to heroes like dick, cass or steph because of his ethics/morals/views on justice, and yes, the kill rule but not only, also things like working with a team/other. red hood works are a character foil and if jason were to evolve from that role, i want him to shed the red hood moniker and really make it clear he’s moving past that role for something new (for what i have no idea, i suck at coming up with superheroes alias, but something different, something he made for himself instead of taking from someone else)

[wesavegotham]

I would be so much less annoyed with Batman vs Robin and Lazarus Planet if the explanation presented to us for why Damian opened Nezha's tomb hadn't just been Damian going "hmm, this strange artifact I found is pulling me towards this tomb, I should open it!"

After Teen Titans 2016 and the way DC tried to blame Alfred's death on Damian I can't take anymore of DC using Damian as a scapegoat for their bullshit.

Especially since Williamson set up an excuse for Damian with his stolen heart being in possession of Mother Soul. It's right there, use it!

If Waid seriously thinks Damian is the smartest Robin he shouldn't write him like such a dumbass.

[themollyjay]

How I’m spending my depressive episode

Batman:  The Doom That Came to Gotham Verdict:  Sucked.

Batman:  Gotham by Gaslight Verdict:  Okay, but not great.

Catwoman:  Hunted Verdict:  Terrible, but in a fun way.

Batman:  The Long Halloween Verdict:  Legit awful.  I want my 3 hours back.

The Legion of Superheroes Verdict:  This is bullshit.  Straight up Character assassination.  The disrespect to Supergirl, Brainiac 5, and Lar Gand is fucking unreal.

League of Superpets Verdict:  This movie fucking rocked.

My Adventutes with Superman Episodes 1 & 2 Fucking awesome.  They gave Clark a Magic Girl Transformation sequence.

The Batman (2007 TV Series) Verdict:  Sucked so much I couldn't make it past episode 3.

Rise of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Verdict:  Sucked so much I couldn't make it past the first episode.

Good Omens Season 1 Verdict:  It rocks.  I regret watching it because the wait for season 2 is fucking killing me.

Batman Superman: Public Enemies Verdict:  Surprisingly Good

Son of Batman Verdict:  Okay, except for the disrespect to Tim, Jason, Cassandra, Stephanie.  Stupid movie acts like they don't exist.

Batman vs. Robin Verdict:  DC's on some bullshit here.  Acts like Bruce doesn't consider Dick his son.  Biological Family is the only true family bullshit dripping from everywhere.  Fucking whoever wrote this shit.

[frasier-crane-style]

DC Slate

Really wish The Authority were an Elseworlds. We had that entire Superman Vs. The Elite movie about how ‘the Authority’ and the traditional (good) DC universe don’t and can’t mesh, so either the Authority gets watered down into a generic (but edgy) superhero team or all the Justice League has no convictions and is okay with a bunch of superpowered psychos flying around doing whatever.

(Also, didn’t we just get Black Adam about this exact theme? That was literally the movie that killed the old DCEU!)

-High monkey’s paw potential: Gunn is an actual superhero comic fan and is citing specific runs he’s going to adapt instead of basing movies on Wikipedia pages like the MCU. Bad news: they’re Tom King runs.

-Speaking of Gunn, he’s on the record as having something of that Tobey Wainscott attitude about superheroes being silly--which they are--but I’m a guy who feels they work best when you commit to the bit and kinda delight in the silliness, not doing the MCU elbow in the ribs to get that you’re actually above all this goofy bullshit? So I feel like we’ll probably end up with the opposite problem as Snyder. He thought superheroes were goofy bullshit, so he focused on making them as over the top serious and brooding and violent and butch as possible (Wonder Woman carrying a bunch of severed heads around, et al). So I worry Gunn’s going to go “this is all goofy bullshit, SO LET’S LEAN INTO IT! SILLY SILLY SILLY!” Which people will probably love, because we as a society can’t take anything seriously unless it’s ‘representation’ like Black Panther or Captain Marvel, so I don’t know, I guess maybe after the Western world falls and we rebuild from the rubble, then I can get a decent Mister Miracle solo film.

-Two Batman movies and no Wonder Woman movies? Sounds about right...

-Oh, I forgot, there’s going to be a prequel TV show about Wonder Woman’s... setting before she’s born/as a young child. I guess Smallville, Krypton, Gotham, and Pennyworth weren’t enough bites at that apple. Then again, a peaceful utopia with no conflict full of lesbians sounds like Tumblr’s ideal show, so maybe they can stop trying to turn other media like Thundercats and Ghostbusters into that and just enjoy drag king story hour or whatever Amazons do all day when there isn’t a Crisis and DC doesn’t have to kill five thousand of them to show how high the stakes are.

-Gonna be weird to have Superman as a young bachelor while Batman has a full Batfamily and Damian is his Robin. I suppose that’s Superman & Lois’s fault for... sort of... getting to Jon Kent first. But still, it’s weird that Damian is Robin while Lois Lane hasn’t even been inseminated yet.

-I will forgive a lot if we get a Jon Hamm Batman though.

-I guess we’re just never going to do a live-birth DCU where we see the Big Seven’s origin stories, get to see them form the Justice League, maybe a few second-stringers like Atom, Green Arrow, and the Justice Society for flavor?

-I’ll largely reserve judgment until we get some casting. It seems like five-to-ten years ago was the big “Okay, we’re making this ONE character black, but that’s all!” push (Hermione, Perry White) and now it’s “Okay, we’re making the entire supporting cast black, but the main character’s still white!” (Percy Jackson, Wheel of Time, Spider-Man) so I worry by the time the Gunnverse gets going, we’ll be firmly in the era of “white men can only be clowns, villains, or mentors who are about to die” (Black Adam). And anyone with taste will just have to count on Tom Cruise to make at least one movie a year worth watching.

[roseworth]

in fairness, people are probably extra sensitive about jason being "dumb enough to fall for that" thx to the latest batman issue/all the other times DC makes him look incompetent which yeah I get

but on the other hand like. one of the last times batman thought jason had killed someone, he beat the guy black and blue. I don't blame him for being jumpy when he has a gun pointed at someone and actually //is// trying to kill

HIII sorry for ignoring this for a few days i forgor

(for context)

i def think youre right that its annoying to see him fall for stupid shit when hes been written so terribly for like. 15 years. and just in the last few weeks the bullshit in batman vs robin, and the "jason never wanted to practice the moves" or whatever in batman, and im pretty sure tim drake: robin said something stupid recently but i dont want to check. so i get being annoyed when the only book hes being written well in rn starts pulling dumb shit

however

first of all- funey

second of all- i didnt think it was that much of a stretch to think that he would look! youre totally right about how he would be extra on guard when hes about to kill someone given that iirc the last time he killed someone was tylers dad in cheer and he got the shit beat out of him for it until a 6 year old had to tell bruce to stop. so him being on alert for batman while he has a gun to jokers head is not at all out of the question. PLUS he knows batman and still kind of thinks of him as just always being there (NOT emotionally being there only physically being there askfjhdasjf) so he would definitely believe that if joker says "uh oh youre gonna kill me in front of your dad!!" that. bruce is actually gonna be right behind him. and he knows exactly how bruce will react to him killing joker :(

in conclusion i defend my cringefail babygirl's right to look back

[dick-the3rd]

A (maybe not so) brief opinion about Batman vs Robin #3

You see I have this thing where I don't quite like to review things before they end, specially when talking about a miniseries but FUCK if Batman vs Robin isn't bad

I mean. I went into it already knowing it was going to be bad. I went with literally no expectations (worse, negative expectations) but now it went from "an annoyance" to "I actively hate it".

I let it pass a lot of things in the last two issues, but now it's just... Ridiculous

Shadow War was by no means any good, but it did stablished a few things about Damian, that plus his solo made clear how we were moving past "Damian is going/wants to be the evil Batman"

But no. Of course not. Even if it's a case of mind control, the damage is already done, Bruce was already willing to believe Damian was prone to those actions, not only that, but bringing Alfred back then killing him again for what? Steph being the only Robin he ever fired?? Demoting Jason to Bruce's ward? The whole bullshit with Dick and the spotlight thing? Not even talking about Talia, DC writers are at this point just treating her like a paper doll and putting whatever personality they think fits best in the story.

Everything feels just so.... cheap. Boring. This is just another story to stroke Bruce's ego, it's very clear to me Waid is trying to give Bruce an arc about learning with his pasts mistakes to save Damian now, but it doesn't work.

First, it doesn't work because if feels very fake. Bruce keeps diminishing them as 'mind control exploring his weaknesses', 'they don't mean that' and so on so on, and we know they are either a clone or mind controlled, so even if it's really them talking, we still feel like it's not coming from a honest place. Also, it's a trap for Bruce, or course they'll say things to shake Bruce up. And or course the narrative is going to threat those problems like the Robins are being unreasonable and Bruce actually did what he thought it was best.

And second, those problems? They are made up. Tim didn't disappeared from Bruce's eyes, I mean??? He is Robin right now??? While Damian was acting solo??? And before that Damian had his run with the Teen Titans??? While Tim keeps being pushed to the spotlight???? (Not even talking about it was Dick that made Damian Robin, not Bruce, and Bruce's general feelings about Damian when he first appeared)

(I'm not talking about Steph's complains bc I haven't read her time as Robin (yet))

And then Jason???? Blaming Bruce for not trying to save him??? Because he was not in his right mind???? I mean, WHEN we had any indication about Jason not being in his right mind??? Never, that's when. Also, can we talk about Jason demanding to be Bruce's priority and Bruce agreeing even though he can't even think of Jason as his son?? I mean, ward? C'mon. And the Joe Chill bullshit??? Like, when????

And really fucking shit, Dick being bitter about the spotlight??? Really??? He's making it sound like Bruce hide him in the basement or something. Like Robin wasn't famous, like he didn't appeared on TV enough times to a kid recognize him for his jumps. Fucking hell man, all the Robins have problems enough with Bruce without you making up new ones.

(NOT talking about the Alfred scene because I might scream for real)

And now we have Bruce, knocking unconscious all his "children" and leaving then behind because there's only one real son, the only one he might have truly failed, and now he has to rescue him.

Fucking

Bullshit

And you know what? If they truly wanted for this to be a personal journey for Bruce, to make him aknowlegde his past mistakes, then those traps shouldn't be a fight. It should be tests. And the only way to defeat each one is truly recognizing where he went wrong and offering to make up for it.

But of course, that would demand for the devil to be less or a real demon and more of a personal demon (a metaphor for fighting yourself and such), and DC can't have Batman being emotional. No, he needs to defeat his problems with punches, because that's very mainly, and Batman is the epitome of masculinity.

This is turning way too big and way too messy, so I'm stopping here.

Just know I have much more thoughts and I'm plenty bitter.