#like sorry but being anti-endo isn't a personality

[demonic-shadowlucifer]

basing your whole blog on hating on people that don't fit your definition of queer/neurodivergent/plural/anything is much more harmful than the "weird" queers and "transtrenders" and non-traumagenic plurals and "fakers" yall claim are "polluting" your communities (they're not, you're just a dick who needs to get off the internet for once) next question

[sophieinwonderland]

Now, why would you dare me to embarrass you and your pals like that?

I appreciate how you wanted my attention so bad you posted me to not one, but two subreddits.

Makes a girl feel special! 🤣

I have actually never seen Wikipedia cited as a source about endogenic plurality. Though I do see anti-endos all the time, when asked for sources, telling people to just Google things.

Anyway, here's @guardianssystem's document filled with academic papers about endogenic plurality:

I've compiled my own, but honestly, theirs is better organized than mine.

And in the interest of fairness, here are all the anti-endo papers debunking endogenic plurality:

Sorry, I forgot. Those don't exist. Oops. 🤷‍♀️

Echo chamber? LOL!

Weren't you the one spouting a bunch of lies on Tumblr, got totally debunked, posted the people who debunked you to r/systemscringe to have a hugbox where fakeclaimers could assure you how the people who contradicted you are all fakers, and then blocked everyone who disagreed with you?

Weren't you also the one who, when shown a quote from an expert in dissociative disorders who worked on the DSM-5 saying that a disorder isn't a disorder if it doesn't cause distress, argued that the people who defined what disorder are must be wrong about that definition?

You're a misinformation machine who can only find support when huddled in cringe subreddits. Don't try to talk about people in echo chambers.

Also, you know most of psychology is just... listening to people? That's how it's been as long as the field existed. DID (or MPD at the time) was a recognized disorder since long before the first brain scans were conducted on DID patients. It's saying something though when basically every single scientist who has ever researched endogenic plurality has said they believe it's a real thing, or that it could be. While absolutely zero academic papers have expressed that it's fake.

There is also an fMRI study into tulpa systems that's been in the works, but results have yet to be published.

Sure, if that's what you'd like me to call you, Crazy. 😊

Anyway, Crazy, you should know that just because you personally find something scary doesn't mean everyone will or that the thing is bad. Personal preferences are a thing.

In a study of tulpamancers though, most generally reported their lives becoming better after the practice.

78% reported improvements in their mental health, and 91% on overall life.

There are many out there who would jump at the chance to have someone there with them that knows them intimately, and to never have to be alone again.

If it's not for you, then so be it.

But it's certainly not something to be afraid of.

And maybe, for those who are willing to commit to the practice while America struggles with an epidemic of loneliness, it's something worth being open to.

This is actually pretty fair.

But that's now, and I'm looking at course of history and trends of plural acceptance.

300 years ago, any plural would be viewed as demon possessed and end up tortured or killed for their plurality.

70 years ago, all plurality was seen as a mental illness, and it was common to force plurals, as well as anyone else associated with mental illnesses, into asylums.

30 years ago, the first real plural communities were able to connect on the internet and form in small numbers.

8 years ago, the first studies into endogenic plurality started being conducted. 4 years ago, the ICD-11 acknowledged that you could have multiple distinct personality states without a disorder. 2023 marked the first, but certainly not the last, time a system used their system name as an author of an academic paper.

Recently, new plural resources have been designed and put into use. More servers than ever are using Pluralkit. And Simply Plural went from 100k users at the end of 2021 to 210k at the end of 2022.

Progress is happening far more rapidly than you realize. And you had best be ready for it.

BOO! 👻

Oh, hey, I just realized... this is literal pluralphobia!

Liberté!

Egalité!

Fraternité!

And yes, The Future is Plural! 😜

[lesboylycan]

why is this server filled with people who think syscourse is just a "meaningless" internet debate

like. i'm sorry, but i don't think my blog getting posted to r/systemscringe and getting not just attacked for being non-traumagenic, but also for my queerness, is meaningless. i don't think random ass people joining my discord server knowing it's pro endo, knowing we're endogenic, just so they can have access to my DMs to sui-bait me is meaningless. i don't think the fact that i'm basically barred from so many online disability spaces because we're endogenic and 70 - 80% or more of the people in this spaces are anti-endo is meaningless. i don't think the fact that people think we're inherently harmful just for existing for reasons unrelated to trauma is meaningless. i don't think me having to walk on eggshells in servers completely unrelated to plurality (but have other plural folks in them) until i'm sure that us being endogenic won't be an issue is meaningless.

maybe you think it's meaningless. maybe you feel perfectly fine hanging around people who believe us to be faking, secretly traumagenic (and not "remembering the trauma" that caused it), inherently ableist/saneist, etc, who will go out of their way to harass us, who will post our shit on subreddits dedicated to catching out the "cringe fakers" (and inciting more harassment), all because we're endogenic. maybe you're okay with that. maybe you can even be friends with them.

but we fucking can't. and we're not going to sit here and pretend like we're comfortable hanging around you, either, when you treat this all as if it has no real consequences. when you treat syscourse as a debate between viewpoints with equal logical and ethical standing. this isn't something we can compromise on when all we want is to exist without being under threat of harassment and people treating us as if we're evil for not doing plurality in a way they personally like. we're not gonna sit here and be your friend when your best bud on the other side of the brook thinks we literally cannot exist--and all of the baggage that comes along with that. it's just not happening.

[endogenic-cringe]

Dude adding onto the anon talking about how people are upset about Octocon being endo-neutral

I could be wrong here, please correct me if I am + take everything with a grain of salt, but isn't Atlas, the guy who made the bot, trying to keep themselves pretty much anonymous for the entire thing? I remember reading something about one of the reasons the app isn't on IOS being because they'd have to put their actual name on it and they want the anonymity or something, yeah?

So publically having super anti-endo views when you're just trying to make a bot for systems' support is probably making you, yourself, as well as the people you're trying to help by making something accessible, is basically like putting a harassment beacon onto them! It's super counterproductive!

We don't know who Atlas is as a person and I'm pretty sure he wants it to stay that way. And I think that's a good thing!! Still creating a service that is centered around medical cdds with medical resources is So Fucking Nice!!!!!

Idk it's silly to get so heated over but like... the people who are so hell-bent on Octocon being anti-endo make me upset. The way endogenics are, actively saying at all that you're anti endo is basically putting a beacon on yourself for them! Why would you want to put a target on your product and, conversely, the people who use it if you're just trying to make an aid?

This is all word-vomit, sorry for going off in your inbox. /gen

- Zoe 🐙

This is a really good point ^^^

[sysmedsaresexist]

hi it's me the system who sent in an ask ab your username a few days ago back with yet another syscourse question! (sorry for bothering y'all lmao) what is plurality? ive been seeing a lot of posts on here saying it isn't did and then a lot of posts that say it is and . yeah ! is it different from osddid in some way, or is it like. a subsection of those groups or something else entirely

Once again, it depends on who you ask ): you're not bothering!

I've gotten into it with both sides about what plurality is and if/how it's different. I can only give my personal thoughts on it, but there isn't really an answer at this point. Maybe in the future, but not now.

So.

IMO.

CDDs are trauma-based disorders (fact, not opinion). Trauma during childhood will leave "injuries" on the brain, and these injuries affect every aspect of a CDD system's life. For example, how we experience, store, and retrieve memories, or our emotional processing abilities, to how and why we form alters.

Plurality is... not that.

Plurality is an umbrella for any experience that makes you feel like you're "more than one." It's largely considered an opt-in label these days.

So, throwing this out there now, plurality as a concept was meant to be anti psych when it was created. It was chosen to be the opposite of multiple, referring to MPD, and was meant for people who wanted an unmedicalized experience, for any number of reasons.

"More than one," was used by the TPA to attack systems using parts language-- "Less than one."

This is a touchy topic for many CDD systems, and most endogenic systems don't actually know why we're so mad. I'm willing to bet the "more/less" thing went unnoticed by plurals.

So while some will say that CDDs fall under the plural umbrella, others, like myself, find that being forced under what was meant to be a non medical umbrella for systems that looked down on disordered systems to be incredibly offensive.

I mean, just look at Lancers and Pavilion to see just how cruel that early community was towards trauma based and disordered systems.

That said.

While there are some endogenic systems who will find out they're actually a CDD system, "endo with repressed trauma" doesn't account for all experiences. And neither does "CDD system mistaking normal CDD experiences for plural experiences."

Based on research coming out, we can start to see how it's possible for tulpamancers and religious practitioners to have "not me" experiences that are outside of their conscious control.

And it's different.

Edit to add, because I didn't mean to imply otherwise-- Systems can also choose to label their experiences however they want. Systems can experience more than one type of plurality and label that however they choose. CDD systems can and do use plural. There's nothing wrong with that.

[anti-endo-safe-space]

Biggest reason WE are anti endo? Cause of endos stealing ramcoa system terms. That is our biggest trigger for endo systems. That is why our alters get so mad at endos. Cause we are a tbmc and ramcoa survivor and a programmed system. And seeing an endo use programmed system to describe them making their own alters pissed us tf off.

And even still, we give them the bare minimum to not treat them as a single thing and acknowledge nuances and possibilities in the community.

But they can't possibly do that for anti endos. You would think it would be easy to understand where trauma survivors are coming from, but apparently not. Yeah. Shocker (sarcastic) that trauma survivors have boundaries and can be triggered by things that esp mock and take away terms from them and act more like a mimicry of their very real disorder they have to live with. How strange, how unusual. But no no, let's paint them as bigots that just love psychiatrists and worship the DSM and compare them to transmedicalists.

It is astronomically ridiculous. Genuinely makes us furious. It's why even at the bare minimum, our system is only ever going to be endo apathetic if not anti endo cuz we have far more important things to care about, like dealing with our trauma and taking care of our disabled ass. Will never be pro endo again. Even if stuff came out that perfectly proved them, still gonna be anti endo leaning cause we want a space for US and OUR experiences with CDDs. Not having to share it with non disordered plurality shit. But they really can't wrap their heads around that. Everything MUST be catered to endos. Even if people have a valid reason for a dni. Ridiculous.

And it IS easy to respect dnis. Even if I disagree with them. Even if I don't know it's a personal boundary thing, I still respect em if I'm aware of them. It's actually really easy to do so. Even when I was pro endo, I did the same thing. Cause it's easy. But endos can't seem to figure that part out.

Paragraph by paragraph because easier for us to follow

We aren't a RAMOCA system but we have some friends (or we consider them friends) who are and that's one of the worst things ever. It wouldn't be okay for non-RAMCOA systems to take their terms, let alone someone faking the disorder. We know it might not mean much but we are being 100% sincere here, we are so sorry you've had to see that crap

Yeah, unfortunately the bare minimum we've seen isn't good enough

We've refernced the DSM a fair amount of times and we got told we basically lick the boots of the writers. Nah they fucked up a lot, but it's just, that's got the requirements to be diagnosed. And we tend to follow the DSM-V-TR instead (like an updated unofficial DSM). Trauma survivors should be allowed their own spaces without harassment, we've seen even pro-endos ask endos not to interact with posts dealing with trauma that caused the system, but they tend to be harassed as well.

Even if science can prove that yes endos are valid and cool, we still want a space away because what causes us and them supposedly able to cause their system is a complete differnce between the systems. Honestly yeah, only reason we even have the time and stuff to focus on this is we're almost always stuck inside so we're literlaly chronically online. Being endo apathetic is okay, doesn't mean your horrible or anything. Caring abuot it can take too much

If they've got a DNI, it's not hard to respect. Even if there's some sort of rebuttle you wanna make, just ignore them. Move past. IF you see them calling to harass then report them but otherwise, DNI's are super easy to follow (both for anti and pro endos and even endos. It's not hard to follow DNI)

[justanothersyscourse]

oh hi it’s -flower anon

I mostly was sending the asks in since I have moral OCD and the uncertainty and genuine horrible things I’ve seen very much conflict.

I’m only anti-endo due to the very, very cultish nature of a lot of it and have fallen for too many cults already.

(I was groomed into a online cannibalism gore cult at a very young age and still deal deal with the consequences of that, fell for way too many death cults, and almost was lost to way too many other hateful things)

so when the Moral OCD kicks in I trust it, it’s only lead me out of these bad situations.

I know my opinions are probably very uncommon, but too many cults and cultish mindsets I’ve fell for.

honest to god, I was at one point ready to kill myself because I thought overpopulation was real And those accelerationists got to me.

so for wholehearted honesty it’s too much for me, personally I believe fully in cultural and spiritual multiplicity.

But most endo/tulpa/willo spaces aren’t that, and that uncertainty of if- “is this person saying that ‘hey this is just a cultural and spiritual thing’ or is this person not any of those what are they I don’t wanna get into a covert cult again”

but as the current state of endo/willo/Tulsa spaces are, it’s so so cultish that it’s triggering me.

Everything sets off so many alarms in my brain that I trained myself to recognize,

so that’s why I was worrying and asking about it.

you’d too if you had fallen for so many dangerous cult stuff.

Too many death cults man, too many online death cults.

Hi flower ❤️ I hope you're doing okay. I've been sitting on this draft, debating if what I have to say would be helpful or damaging.

You came back, though, so I feel that I need to respond in some way... I'm going to be honest, I'm scared to make this post, this is a very polarized topic in the system community. But... maybe what I say can help someone.

I hope you'll read through to the end. No matter what, whether you disagree with me or not, I genuinely hope you're okay and that things get a bit easier for you. It probably doesn't help, but I know what you're feeling.

I have bad OCD myself. I'm lucky in that I don't struggle with that specific type anymore, but I feel for you 🫂

I'm also very sorry to hear about what you've been through ):

Before I talk, know that this response isn't to change your mind. My only goal is to try to help settle some of that stress.

I want you to feel less stressed by this entire thing. It's okay.

When I was still very heavily anti endo, I felt the exact same way. I'm not just saying that. I also run sysmedsaresexist, and I'm pretty sure I have posts calling the pro endo community "cult-ish" in nature. I probably did it a number of times. You're not alone in that view. I was worried that doctors were going to fall for it, that innocent people were getting dragged into believing they were systems, all of it. Been there, done that.

However, as I slowly moved from anti to critical, I realized BOTH sides display the EXACT same behaviors. The antis were just as bad, once I stepped back to look at it.

To the point that if you put the posts next to each other with identifying characteristics hidden, it could come from, and be about either side. Here's an example.

Either both sides are a cult, or cult is not an appropriate word to be using for syscourse.

It's the latter, I've learned over the years.

And once I got over myself and actually spoke with endo systems... I swear to you, I promise you, with every fiber of my being, that most of what you hear is fear mongering.

Most.

But the same can be said about anti endos. Endos are terrified of antis, but that's because they only hear other endos talking about their HORRIBLE experiences with antis. Some of it is true, most of it isn't, most is... more than a little bit exaggerated.

It just is. Endos think you, specifically you, flower anon, send death threats.

Do you? I'm willing to bet not, but you're lumped into that group whether you like it or not, whether it's true or not.

While syscourse can feel TERRIFYING, like life versus death (trust me, I know), I promise it's actually okay.

It's going to be okay. You're going to be okay.

The medical community is going to be okay. Your resources will be okay. The endos will be okay. The antis will be okay.

I am still actively involved in clinical circles, and I promise you, doctors know the difference between CDDs and plurality. Doctors ARE talking about endogenic systems, but try to give them a bit more credit.

Did you know that the multiple theory of self is as old as the ToSD? But it's a concept based in philosophy and the discussion of consciousness. These are two totally different things that are both valid. The issue is overlapping language. But if we're mad about "system" being shared, why aren't we more mad at IFS? Does "computer system" dehumanize CDD systems, too? That's dumb. No it doesn't.

Radqueers exist in every single community, and so do people who don't like radqueers. For every radqueer endo, there's another endo squinting hard at that and complaining to their friends. There are radqueer DID systems. They exist. It happens. It's like saying lesbians are bad because there's radfems and radqueers in that community, too. The intersection of multiplicity, sexuality and gender is VERY confusing, with more moving parts than you can count. Obviously there are going to be people with very wide and very narrow views about it.

(That said, I don't bother with radqueer stuff very much, I have NEVER participated in that discourse because I don't feel that I understand the nuance of it enough to have a fully informed view of it.

Wouldn't it be nice if more people could acknowledge that they don't understand things enough?

Anti endos, I'm looking at you)

Your ability to see cult tactics in things is something that has protected you, but that doesn't make it healthy. Do not try to overcome or change that part of you without the help of a specialist. That's not what I'm saying.

Seeing the world as dangerous, and signs of danger in the world, is what protects everyone, but for trauma affected people, this ability is broken. It's hyperactive. That's something that we all approach in therapy, eventually. You don't need to change right now, but one day you'll want to be able to see the good in things, and that takes so much more practice and guidance than you could imagine.

An easy way to start, though, is empathy and introspection-- not just into your self, but into your community. To recognize the double standards and be able to critically put aside those fears and concerns without someone else making the decision for you.

I can tell you that isolation is a major tactic used by cults, and it's the antis telling you to do that, isn't it? They say, don't even hear the other side out, I'll tell you what they're saying, and you can just believe me.

Isn't that what @number1-syscourse-blog was telling you to do? And it's only the pro side saying you can be friends with BOTH sides-- not just other pro endos, but telling you that it's okay to be friends with antis and pros. That it's healthy and good to surround yourself with differing opinions and form your own conclusions. I don't know if you can see the number of people telling number1 syscourse what a bad response that was. Not just me, SO MANY PEOPLE! They're all blocked and hidden now.

Because the full picture is a beautiful thing.

Making your own choices and drawing your own conclusions is a powerful thing.

And the picture is not as ugly or scary as number1 syscourse would have you believe.

My suggestion to you is to just... not talk syscourse with your friends. Just be friends. Talk about the dumbest shit and remember that you're both just human, trying to understand the world around you.

For fun, and to settle minds, let's go through, just to drive the point home. It's going under a cut, just in case, but be aware, I'm critically tearing apart both sides for being ridiculous.

Pros and antis, cult edition

Characteristics of a cult:

Absolute authoritarianism without accountability

Now, neither side has a leader, so to speak, but we can talk about how members of each community can say whatever they want without any accountability. We have people on both sides wishing death on the other, and no one is stepping in to say, "yo, wtf?" No, those posts are instead spread further by people reblogging their friends, because 🌈 brand loyalty 🌈 rather than any kind of critical thought.

Yes, both sides do this. No, that's not up for debate. It's happening. If you think it's not, you're either being willfully blind, or you've fallen into the isolation trap.

DNIs aren't shields against shitty behavior, just like free speech doesn't allow for hate speech, but people sure do love hiding behind DNIs. Like, they'll post a GOOD ask, with great points, and respond with a womp womp, can't you read my DNI, and it's like... maybe you should have read more than the first line, my dude. Free publicity for the other sides' ideals, because you literally can't be bothered to read anything.

Honesty, I think the block feature is the downfall of humanity. There are anti endo blogs posting misinformation on DID that can't be corrected because they've blocked everyone that knows more than them. I've tried to correct a lot of them, I'm blocked.

It's an echo chamber, much like how you view pro endo spaces.

Zero tolerance for criticism or questions

Come on, do I actually need to talk about this? See the DNI point again. Good asks with good points with a nonsense response because, OH GOD, anon dared to have a slightly different belief on something. Endo neutrals, people trying to ask questions and learn, aren't even allowed to interact with most blogs, even just for questions.

Lack of meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget

Another way that "cult" isn't an appropriate term, though we could talk about TPA here. I really, really don't like the TPA.

Unreasonable fears about the outside world that often involve evil conspiracies and persecutions

Hey, pot, meet kettle.

A belief that former followers are always wrong for leaving and there is never a legitimate reason for anyone else to leave

Hey, that's what happened to me when I left the anti side!

Abuse of members

Yeah, they abused me pretty bad for trying to correct misinformation on @antimisinfo's (an anti endo) post. People are constantly being ostracized and kicked out of their community for looking too hard at the other side. God forbid you hear them out, for curiosities sake.

Records, books, articles, or programs documenting the abuses of the leader or group

Not really?

Followers feeling they are never able to be “good enough”

Maybe if you squint?

A belief that the leader is right at all times

Who would the leader be? Science? Because science does support endos, and antis won't read a single word of it.

A belief that the leader is the exclusive means of knowing “truth” or giving validation

Again, if we call science the leader... but again, that only applies to antis.

The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and its members

I can see it, I guess. Mostly out of antis claiming the elite title for trauma.

The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society

Both sides have this problem.

The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members’ participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before they joined the group

Again, see the point about friends reblogging other friends wishing death on the other side.

The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

This would be like saying you're betraying your side for talking to the other side. Huh. Kind of like what happened to you.

Just because the word cult CAN be applied to things doesn't mean it should be. Especially in syscourse, where one side has such a dark history with cult activity, it feels very... inappropriate to call pro/antis in syscourse a cult.

Really, it's just a bunch of people screaming that they're more right than the other side, and using fear mongering to make points that don't actually matter.

[saturns-rings-sys]

Octocons recent statement on privacy and their stance on non traumagenic systems posted to discord:

Hi, I'd like to do a bit of clarification here. There's word going around (especially on platforms such as Tumblr and TikTok) that we're "anti-endo" and are going to go on "user crusades" to ban non-traumagenics like certain other SP/PK alternatives did.

**This has not happened and will never happen.**

We consider our community to be *traumacentric*, in the sense that our platform was designed specifically for people with traumagenic/medical DID/OSDD in mind. We explicitly develop our platform to accommodate symptoms such as dissociative amnesia. We are **not** going to stop anyone from using the app or bot, we just ask that our *Discord community* sticks to that theme so we can form a proper support group around that demographic. Going on "endogenic crusades" would be uncouth, childish, against our values, and quite frankly absurd.

**We have a neutral stance on systems not caused by trauma. Our platform just isn't designed for them nor around them.** If you came here with the intention of sparking discourse regarding this subject, please leave.

A part that bothers me in particular is that this also implies that we would violate user privacy (or have *already* violated it, which is even worse). As stated in our [privacy policy](https://octocon.app/docs/platform/privacy), this is also **not** the case. We will **never** look into someone's account unless we are legally forced to do so under U.S. law, or that person volunteers to share some information to help us fix a bug, at which point we will **consensually** collect as little information as possible.

I ask that anyone who notices this kind of rhetoric going around on external platforms help us to clarify any misinformation. It would help lessen our workload immensely so we can focus on developing features, fixing bugs, and stabilizing our community. For those of you I've seen who have already helped with this, **I thank you** from the bottom of my heart.

\- Atlas

(This is copied directly from the discord server, I do not have any claim to this information, I am just sharing it)

Apologies for spreading misinformation about them being anti endo, I had seen it posted everywhere and so believed it, I should have done more in depth research sorry.

[banesberry-anomoly]

sorry about this,,, (about sending another ask,,,,)

what are endos and anti endos? i USED to be an anti endo but now i dont know if im anti endo or not.

- @ieaturanium

Sorry this took so long to answer, I was dealing with some other stuff and didnt wanna shortchange an explanation!

So, I'm a mixed origin system and I mainly identify that way because 1. were not entirely sure what the original reason for us becoming a system was, and we think it was multiple things that contributed to it, and 2. We have headmates from all sorts of origins due to being a very large system

And really it can vary! Some endo systems dont remember their trauma, but this isn't true for all of them and assuming can lead to them either trying to dig up trauma that they may not be ready to face or a headmate causing trauma for the system out of spite to prove a point. Ive heard of this happening many times, the former more so than the latter, and its very harmful when anti endos try to push and convince endos that 'Oh you just dont remember your trauma but I still think youre valid!' because of said reasons.

Some may caused by something that could be considered trauma (because trauma is nuanced and varies from person to person, it all just depends on how the brain reacts to something) but because of the nature of what it is the person either doesnt consider it to be trauma for whichever reason or feels more comfortable identifying as an endo sys. Stressgenic is one of those examples.

And then some may just not be caused by trauma at all, like willogenic systems or people that have 'artists muses' (aka their characters will write themselves or talk to them). There are many forms of plurality because it is a wide and varied experience, and not all of them are talked about. Artists muses tend to be the most common example. But not everyone knwos about or wants to self identify as plural, and thats totally fine!

Something I need to put an emphasis on is endo systems can still *have* trauma, and it could still cause headmates to form/split/etc, it just wasnt the original cause of their becoming a system. Just because someones an endo system doesnt automatically make them immune to experiencing traumas in the future that may or may not affect their plurality.

A lot of systems may have been affected and caused by their neurodivergence in some way, like us with our autism and wildly untreated BPD, and we had a lot of ""non standard"" trauma when we was younger which would probably get us fakeclaimed regardless. We dont feel comfortable fully identifying as traumagenic though for various reasons, including how toxic some of the community can be

The anti endo community doesnt only target endo systems, theres a lot that also target pro endo traumagenic systems for the same reasons. "Endos are hurting Traumagenic systems!!!!!!!" but then they go after those that support endos and its like wow, way to support the people you claim to protect. Ive seen traumagenic systems get their own trauma fakeclaimed and called an endo system as a 'justification' for getting harrassed

Endo systems have been fighting for the system community for *years*, dating back to around the 80s or 90s iirc, and so many terms come from endogenic parts of the community (like fictive and factive are two prominent examples!). Endos and pro endos provide sources in internet arguments arguing about their existence only to be ignored or told 'THOSE SOURCES ARENT VALID SOURCES!!!!!' even when theyre medically backed studies

Ive also seen anti endos argue on The Future Is Plural! posts because they think they want more children to be traumatized. This is not anywhere near case or point, which is to fight for more plural acceptance and make it a safer environment for people to explore their own plurality without getting harrased or judged for it

And just to clarify, I dont mind endo neutrals or people willing to learn interacting with me, as Im willing to help educate how I can! Just be respectful and anyone falling under those categories can stick around ^_^^

[blumbergsys]

BLOG INTRO .ᐟ

Hello hello! Welcome to our personal blog to rant and yap about us and about anything we feel like talking about

We're the blumberg subsystem, main sys account is @persmo and tho we might be active there, specially the host of this subsys, we're gonna be more active and open here in our personal blog!!

If you know at least one of the many sideblogs we own you can interact better with us here, at our blog, or you can do it in our main like, we don't really care

We work on tumblr alongside the main system host, @namelnom, but sadly we can't communicate too well with him because he's not part of our subsys and communication out of our subsys is damn hard, we don't know why T-T

Expect us not just to ramble about us but Tumblr as a whole and our sideblogs because that's part of who we are LMAOO

We're super open to interaction with other people, we love to answer asks and socialize so the inbox is always open to talk, ramble and all of that, feel free to give it a try people!!

Subsystem of44 alters, tho we're sure at some point we can grow as a subsys LMAO

Why do I say this?? Simply because we're a subsystem of alters dedicated of tumblr, that's right! Our roles is to be here active on tumblr and in the many sideblogs the whole system own, so we can expect that in some point we can become more than just 5... Do we like the idea of being more??? Not really because the implications, but at this point we can't control it so... fuck it lmao

If we have bad english sorry, we're latin american so.... English isn't our first language LMAO, you can correct us poletitly if you want but probably won't be editing the post if we have bad grammar or something like that so... yeah

We don't have a super wow DNI or boundaries because we're super open mind and we don't like to be in fights or discourse so...

Just don't be shitty ok?? We really don't mind a lot of things but if you're against us or call us things or don't like us or whatever thing like that just scroll and don't interact

DNI: Basic DNI, endos, anti-alterhuman or any kind of non humanity, any kind of discourse blog

Any other thing or boundary you can totally ask it and we would clarify things about it

Our Intros Links!!

Perslog intro 📱👁‍🗨

Mycelik intro 🏳🍄

Silz intro 🤍🎉

Antend intro 💢🔰

Ceddwey intro 🌌📚

Anon Claims!!

Nothing lol

(We're gonna add more userboxes later, we need to do them lmao)

[antiendovents]

personal take on irls and fictkins and of the like.. I think they're fine and valid in their own ways, as in they deserve their own spaces respectfully no i do not agree with irls being fed into their delusions/feeding into their delusions by pretending to be someone/ being encouraged to be someone they are not. but i still believe they deserve their own space. Fictkins from my understanding and the fact i used to identify as one are usually people who relate to characters heavily, possibly have vivid dreams of the characters/ memories and use them as a comfort thing or anything of the like, but they are not that character. Irls, something i have identified with before (I am a system, specifically a fictive but i have identified with the term of being a irl for separate characters instead of having a source for them if you get what i mean?) Are people who struggle from delusions based off a disorder (Bpd, personality disorders of the like) and have delusions off the characters, kinda like a fictkin but delusional and unhealthy. Anti-recovery irls are disgusting, pro-recovery irls are alright. Some irls and fictkins use system fictive terms, along with simply plural and plural kit, which in my humble opinion, is gross and not okay. I don't care if pk and sp are pro endo and don't care who use their sites it feels wrong. Fictkins invading fictive spaces is definitely a big thing that IS happening, but i believe we shouldn't stigmatize all of them to be entitled like that if that makes sense? I've met good fictkins who find those fictkins gross and agree with me, who don't use system terms and are very respectful. I think we just have to learn how to be better people.. Sorry if i've been rambling in your chatbox way too much i'm not used to having a place where i can really put these.. :] /pos -🐸

feel free to not post/not reply if you aren't comfortable with this ask, along with any of my asks.

yeah, I agree. I think fictkins and IRLs are vaild though I want gem to stay away from fictive spaces (unless they're a fictive and an IRL or a fictkins but that's besides the point, we're referring to non-systems / singlets for this)

We're very iffy about them using simply plural because while we get that it's a good tracking app there are multiple alternatives that aren't system related (and if they use the fronting function then that honestly kind of disgusts me. Your fictkin isn't fronting. Your IRL isn't fronting. Whatever the terms are.)

Honestly we're just tired of non-systems / singlets invading system spaces (both in the sense of endos and fictkins / IRLs). It's disgusting. Why can't we just let a group of trauma survivors with a horrible disorder live????

Also don't worry! We love when people ramble in our askbox, it just takes us a while to respond depending on what it's about. We're glad you think of our blog as a place where you can talk about this stuff :3

[sophieinwonderland]

It sucks to want to support your posts because when you get told by your supporters that something you did hurt them or didn't help or hurt a whole group of people it always has you saying "I'm sorry you felt that way" or "I'm sorry it came across like that", it never feels like you're sorry for what you've said, it's always that you're sorry people took you, someone who says they speak facts and wants to disprove lies, as being truthful when you say things. You basically blame your supporters for thinking you mean something fully when you often do.

It's hard to even believe you didn't just say sorry because it upset a fan, I like your stuff, I really do, but when the ONLY reason you "realised it was hurting people" was when a supporter told you, it's a bad sign. People were telling you there were issues before that, both anti-endos and people who had NO part in system-topics at all, you were told it triggered and upset people, you ONLY listened when it was someone who said they were a supporter, no one else got the point across to you? How does that happen? and the most you can give was "it was meant to upset anti-endos"? How is that a good excuse? If an anti-endo can disprove something you say fully (like even you can see you were wrong, by mistake or something), is that to be ignored because you dislike anti-endos? Even if they disprove something totally unrelated to endos? That is bad. Awful actually. It makes me not want to trust you when I can't even know if you even look at both sides in any way, now I look at your posts and wonder if you've cut context or made something up just to "upset anti-endos" like everyone says anti-endos do to endos, instead of because you can actually prove they're wrong. This isn't how I want to feel, but you make that SO hard when you won't even agree wholeheartedly that what you said was actually just wrong and it wasn't people "feeling the wrong way about it".

Like that's not even a hard thing to agree to, it never had to be a long "I'm sorry, I'm an awful person" kind of thing, you never even had to say sorry to anti-endos at all. But the fact you wouldn't say "I'm sorry" without an "that you felt that way" really just sucks dude. It sounds like you don't mean it at all, because you're passing the blame to people for being upset at you, not because you did something wrong.

This clearly isn't an attack, it's a fan who truly wants to see you actually learn that, although saying "sorry" IS good and what you should do, how you say it says a lot about you as a person and makes people feel ways when it isn't done with the respect that they think should come from you.

I like your stuff, it's good, it's well-researched and well-written, and I'm sure MANY of your other fans feel the same, but the part that makes us love your stuff so much is why we were so disappointed in your apology; it wasn't even well-written, let alone well-researched.

If none of that gets to you, just think about how you actually upset and hurt people, anti-endos, endos, people who are trying to learn, people who don't even know what an endo is, and so on, you upset tons of people, for what? A "gotcha" at anti-endos? Why would that ever be worth the hurt? Why can't an actual apology be offered? That's stuff I was wondering when reading your apologies, and that sucks.

Overall just hope you can learn, because this never should have happened in the first place, let alone ended with such a poor apology.

I wish you luck and I do hope to be able to keep supporting you, just wish an effort could be made to make your fans feel like they're not even allowed to tell you when you fuck up.

Tell me, do you ever get sick of it all?

How long have you been involved in syscourse? For me, it's been close to 3 years. Practically since the first time I got posted to r/systemscringe for making a post on r/tulpas about how we used kissing to trigger me to front. (We stopped because a happiness trigger was too unstable and I started switching in when we weren't wanting me to.)

3 long years of watching people I care about be bullied and harassed. 3 long years of facing that myself. Maybe that doesn't sound like much but for me it feels like a lifetime.

I thought coming to Tumblr, I could share information and be compassionate, and change people's minds.

Did it work?

A little bit. Here and there. Between all the harassment campaigns and hate sent my way, I know I changed some minds along the way.

But there's been so much hate directed at us. I've watched so many people get hurt. And I've tried to stop it. Tried to fight back. But it always keeps coming.

We get some wins. We change some minds. We make a difference. I don't want to minimize our successes because there are plenty.

But more anti-endos keep coming. More keep spreading hate.

And more of us keep getting hurt. Over and over and over again.

So we go through years of this, culminating into Aspen's invasion of our tags and them passing posts around literally calling for death to the endos of Tumblr. And the anti-endo community largely did nothing. They said nothing.

And it wasn't a small post nobody saw either. It was a huge picture with 60 notes. It was posted in their tag. How messed up is that, that so many anti-endos liked and shared that, passing it around, and the community remained totally silent?

And while I wouldn't advise going into people's DMs to try to get them to change their minds by telling them anti-endos nearly bullied your friend to commit suicide, the fact that their responses when someone has done that have been come variation of "we don't care actually, LOL" has been disheartening to say the least. Because it drives home a central fact... that many of these anti-endos simply don't care if we die.

Many, I think, would genuinely be happy if I was dead.

And then there was the SAS drama. I definitely would never claim to have done this for SAS. Even without asking or seeing their opinion, I'm sure SAS would hate what I did. But it's more that the whole incident showed me just how few morals this current batch of anti-endos have. That they would dox an account that's not connected to being a system at all, one that's followed by people who know SAS in real life, and when called out they ALL defended it and stood by AEV. IIRC, AEV's own response when called out was saying that some people don't deserve privacy!

All their followers stood by this. All defended them. I looked so hard in this current batch of anti-endos to see even one who would condemn this. One who might restore a bit of faith that their community wasn't just assholes and bullies. And I found nothing.

So... I forged my words into a blade. Because after 3 year of fighting with people, you get to know their insecurities. Their fear of abandonment. Their desperate need to cling to everything and terror of it being ripped away from them. Their self-loathing, because a small part of them does know they're the bad guys. You can't hurt people constantly and spread hate, day after day, without that doubt slipping into your mind.

So I took all of that and forged it into a blade that was meant to... maybe... make anti-endos feel a fraction of the pain they've caused our community. Or at least turned a blind eye to pain their friends were causing us.

The reason I won't offer a full apology is because... I don't want to lie like that.

You say you can't trust me to be honest. But if I told you right now that I regretted my entire post and wish that I could take the whole thing back, that I was deeply sorry for it all... that would be the real lie. I would be saying it to make this whole thing go away and placate people who are mad at me, but I wouldn't feel it.

In my apology, I believe what I said was that I'm sorry it came off that way. Maybe this sounded like I was blaming them, but I was trying to apologize for phrasing it in a way that was interpreted like it was, when that's not how I meant it.

I do regret that the way it was worded triggered delusions. If I were to reforge my blade, I would have made it differently to be more clear and hopefully avoid that. Because my blade was designed to cause a specific sort of fear and hurt and pain, and that wasn't it. And so for that one part I really am truly sorry and feel it went too far.

But... I don't regret telling them that their loved ones would leave them. I don't regret telling them that their therapists will turn pro-endo. I don't regret telling them that they would be pushed out of their fandoms and communities.

I was even grateful to endogenic-cringe for delivering and swinging my blade for me, because it wouldn't have been able to reach as many anti-endos without their help. So many of the anti-endos who were affected by my post only saw it because of them. They made such a great accomplice.

Maybe that makes me a bad person.

But I'm what I've been made by dealing with three years of hate. And worse, three years of watching other people endure it and be broken down by it. I hate, so much, watching people in this community be constantly bullied and abused just for their system being different. Or even just being inclusive to different systems.

You know... I can finally sympathize with Hyaena-Bites. (Wonder who all here has stuck around since that drama?) I mean, I still think the blog was too close to harassment and I don't like that it targeted non-syscourse-related positivity posts. And I don't like that it reblogged those posts just to say horrible things, thus promoting the hate they pretended to fight against in the tags. But I understand the impulse behind it.

There was a girl who had faith in people and made a blog with a big dream, who was convinced that anti-endos were just not educated and that with enough sources, enough evidence, she could change their minds. And the bits of that girl that believed those things have died bit by bit every day.

They've systematically killed all the parts of me that were stupid enough to believe in them.

So seeing the sysmeds get hurt... I'm satisfied. There have been small moment where I start to feel a shred of guilt, but then I remember every system I've seen bullied by them. The systems who have been sent into derealization spirals from fakeclaiming. The systems who have been constantly told to kill themselves for being different. And at this particular moment... I'm thinking of the corpse of my naive faith in anti-endos to be decent people. Because I do mourn for that part of me they killed. Even if its death was necessary to make me see things more clearly.

So this is my vengeance for it all.

Is it productive? Probably not.

Is finally giving anti-endos a real taste of their own medicine for once going to result in blowback because they can actually have a real reason to pretend to be the victims? Maybe.

But their harassment only seemed to be ramping up anyway even before this.

You can do with this what you want. If you don't think you can support me and want to unfollow, that's totally valid. Especially if you think following this blog might be unhealthy for you. I completely understand that and respect what you decide.

But I'm not going to lie and apologize for something that I truly don't regret.

I'm sorry that I worded my post, that was meant to hurt anti-endos by preying on their deepest fears and insecurities, in a way that accidentally triggered delusions. And that's it. That's the full extent of what I can honestly say I'm sorry for without lying to you.

If you do decide you can no longer support me and the person I've become, I sincerely wish you the best on your way. I appreciate all the support I've gotten from my followers over the years but I would never ask any of them to stand by anyone, including myself, if you thought they were bad for you or unsafe.

[circular-bircular]

sorry i just had an epiphany i think everuone already knows this but like. for AGES i have had issues with syscourse. ive always wondered why anti or pro endos wouldn't listen to the other side even when they're agreeing on something and ive always wondered why people think pro endos are grooming the other side and why people think anti endos are fascistic but its literally all just ignorance and closed-mindedness. and resistance.

i think there's this deep fear of looking at the other side and agreeing with them and this deep fear of being wrong and this deep fear of things you don't understand.

i think peopke genuinely have trouble putting themselves in eachother's shoes. especially since they're so scared of the other side being right. so they don't listen. an anti endo could be the most pri endo antuk endo in existence (if that makes sense) but because they use an arbitrary label that doesn't even have nuance people wont listen. and vice versa! and because people don't listen, because people dread the thought of even interacting positively with the other side, they get a lot of things wrong and have a very closed-minded view.

that's also why both sides are stereotyped as harassers. you can SEE harassment. but if you don't go out of your way to engage with people who are reasonable and nice, of COURSE you're only gonna see the people who go out of their way to break their DNI. because you don't even look into the rest of the people! you just take things at face value!

(general you is used here, this isn't at the blogger) pro endos and anti endos can have good posts! but you're so scared of the other side, you have this very detrimental us vs them mentality, you can't see why someone would feel the way they do, you have trouble understanding, so you dig in your heels and REFUSE to understand instead of TRYING.

so many problems, so many syscourse posts could have been avoided if people just LISTENED to the other side.

and now that ive had this epiphany, half of syscourse now seems silly and useless to ne.

I kind of want to tackle this from my own shoes (however ironic that may be).

When I was using syscourse labels like anti endo and pro endo, it was more than fear of realizing I was wrong about my beliefs. It was fear of isolation and harassment for interacting with the other side. I have been completely ostracized and traumatized in the past for interacting with the “wrong” person.

What broke me out of that was finally being so, so broken down by not understanding my own disorder that I finally reached out to @justanothersyscourse in an attempt to understand dysfunction VS disordered and what the fuck those words meant in context. I do not say this with any joking or levity, JAS unironically saved my life that day. Would I be alive today without that conversation? Probably, yes. But I wouldn’t be where I’m at in recovery. I’d be a very different Circ.

I was scared to reach out, even privately, because I figured JAS would make a post about it. He was supposed to be an Evil Anti Endo, after all, and clearly he would harass me. (I also have a lot of issues with tumblr messenger due to prior issues with users via DMs, so I was scared of harassment directly from him). And the thing was, I wasn’t really scared of JAS or his followers hunting me down if he made a post.

I was scared of what the pro-endos around me would do to me for “speaking with the enemy.”

Knowing what I know now, I’m shocked and alarmed at how many people are feeling this same way, but it’s not surprising. After all, current theories show that one of the core things that leads to the development of DID is disorganized attachment. Most CDD systems have no stable support structure. So… enter syscourse: a place where individuals are labeling themselves for you.

SAFE vs UNSAFE.

Anyone who isn’t the same label as you is labeled unsafe, because you can’t predict them; they’re not the stable, safe belief you know. And if you start interacting with UNSAFE, then suddenly, you are also deemed UNSAFE — meaning you lose the attachments you had.

It’s absolutely terrifying, and we’ve witnessed it time and time again in syscourse. I lost those pro-endos I used to have by becoming a “filthy high and mighty sysmed centrist.” I lost anti-endos by “traumatizing traumagenic systems and calling them endos.” I lost so many people, immediately isolated for my apparent crimes of Talking About The Other Point. 

The tag is filled with triggered, dissociative people, all screaming about various transgressions. Someone broke a DNI — unsafe. Someone fakeclaimed someone — unsafe.

And those laws and rules kept us alive! They were what was needed for so long. And maybe, just maybe, these people still need those rules to survive. Maybe it’s not yet safe enough for them to attempt the unsafe.

Today while working on the house, I finally burst out and shouted, “I need to be a bitch about this, and even if you yell at me, it’s the only way I can communicate: I need to do something alone!” I set a boundary and nothing more, but it took every last ounce of energy I had to set it, because I was going against every single brain pathway I had that dictates that setting boundaries is unsafe.

That’s what I see in syscourse, now.

I think it’s more than just, “they’re scared the other side is right.” I think it’s just… they’re scared. So many people are scared. And they can’t get out of it.

So they don’t ever try.

[who-is-page]

Got some interesting asks last night; not gonna publish them as the person who sent me them asked me not to--they were a system who just wanted to vent out some frustrations and I respect that!--but the TL;DR summary is that they were frustrated that "syscourse" even at its theoretical best, even when all the people involved are 'pro-all systems' or label themselves 'endo-friendly spaces,' is something that's still often used as a cudgel to hurt others. And you know-- I'm honestly pretty damn inclined to agree. Syscoursers from a subcultural stance often can't separate themselves in diction and approach from its hyper-aggressive roots, and any attempt at discussion without meticulously unpacking that history falls flat. From a perspective more familiar to most of my followers, it would be like if therians ran around calling themselves "grillers" without disentangling the digital hazing history that went alongside the term and drove so many people away. It's a lack of introspection and an inability to reckon with the iron-spiked, saw-bladed foundations all the way down.

And seeing self-described syscoursers on one specific post essentially try to spin their unsuccessful, grayrocked attempt at confrontation and dogpiling as them being censored and silenced just proves this point to me further, since they're simultaneously claiming to at the same time be in favor of supporting discussion and education while having started off initially so aggressive and seemingly bad-faith. You can't set a bridge on fire and then howl fury when other people refuse to cross it, especially not when you've specifically positioned yourself in the scenario as an individual who intends to foster helpful conversations. You can't come in swinging and then complain that they started it and you only wanted to help! And if they hadn't positioned themselves in that way, jumping up on the pedestal to claim that they only want to have civil conversations and surely others who deny them that are censoring them and bad/wrong/etc WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY looking to be picking a fight rather than a genuine civil conversation, then this would be a different discussion to have-- but, well. I'd be lying if I said it didn't remind me of certain anti-otherkin tactics I'd seen in the past, with people batting their eyelashes and assuring otherkin that they weren't sealioning, it was all just innocent questions about such a stupid identity-- oh sorry, did they say stupid? They meant "interesting," teehee, don't mind them. They're just here to listen and be logical. """Logic""" which usually involves punching down in a way that isn't logical and is more just an excuse to be an asshole and tear into someone.

There's a reason I don't posit myself as someone who intends to always single-handedly foster perfectly civil, moderated, respectful discussions in my discourse posts in the same way, say, Rani (a-dragons-explanation) does. Because I know that when I get pissed, I bite! I'm cognizant of that fact, that I don't have perfect self-restraint and sometimes I come across way harsher than is necessary (even on occasions where harshness might theoretically be warranted, because deserved is not the same as necessary). And I am also aware that discourse is a separate animal from discussion, in the same way grilling is different from an AMA. Sure, they might be technically synonymous on a dictionary level, but in practice they are vastly different. And that applies here, too, even though I've seen syscoursers claiming that they are the exact same.

But this is getting away from me. -chinhands- I guess that I'm disappointed but ultimately not surprised that syscourse is fundamentally nonproductive, and that it too often devolves into dehumanizing others, either through outright arguments around personhood or just through preemptively making people out to be significantly more malicious than they actually are, because within the subculture due to a variety of factors, malice and cruelty is assumed to inherently be much more common than ignorance. And people are also much less forgiving of the latter, even if they claim otherwise. But seeing this happen has given me some perspective on things in the subcultures I frequent and in my own tendencies with some topics, and is making me rethink the ways I communicate with others and what the intended goals of those communications with larger audiences are versus how it can go off the rails, which I think is really helpful, even if it's coming inadvertently from such a noxious source.

[anendoandfriendo]

Hey sorry I was trying to dm you but we aren't mutuals 😭 please don't publish this but https://www.tumblr.com/anendoandfriendo/739226231286939648 the person who coined this is anti endo. They even have endo dni

No, actually, we will publish it. It's a good example of how to investigate basic callouts to see if what people say is true. :) //not mad but...please understand why saying "do not publish this" is incredibly suspicious to us.

We're not sure what you're seeing exactly because we don't see that at all, unless we literally missed something? This is a screenshot of the DNI we're seeing from the link itself on that post:

We reblogged the genderfail post off of a friend who's also pro-endogenic and, like, it's exhausting vetting every single blog over a post.

Now, what we did was go to OP's blog from that gender coining because, welp, some people are slick and try to use the foot in the door method to buy people into hatred you know? By pretending to be inclusionists like the above and then it's completely different.

Their rentry URLs are entirely different than the rentry on the genderfail link. HOWEVER, endogenic systems aren't even in their DNI on their actual DNI, it literally looks like this as of this ask:

Now, like, we have issues with "basic criteria" being in a DNI because to us "do not harass people over their taste in fiction" is basic DNI for example, but to antishippers this obviously isn't the case. -_-'

That aside, that link under basic criteria actually leads back to that DNI list in the genderfail post.

We're actively working on getting web archives of these links in case they change. Asks are no longer acting weird and not allowing edits, but we do work in about ten minutes as of this edit of our own answer.

We don't know what is going on here but: if it's all cycling back to the same thing and we don't see "endos dni" anywhere we look, then it seems rather misinformed for you to send this ask.

Unless you happened to share the wrong link. Which is also possible.

But callouts to us, in general, are highly suspicious and this would be why.

Post will be edited as/if we come across information so people can see how it evolves.

MAJOR EDIT 1.0

Something that people generally do not realize about us, is, we prefer to do any kind of analytical work or any kind of...investigation? on a laptop. Now, here is the problem with that as explained by one of our headmates —

However we were talking to a mutual @tulpafcker who has typed things in our replies that indicate the blog in question was likely not shadowbanned so we put a search into the bar #endogenic and #endo, the latter of which turns up this post. The read more does, in fact, have the ableist, bigoted, and decidedly hypocritical "dni endos and supporters" on it.

But that's not for OP that's for an entirely different blog. That said, the implicit "no exclusionism or ableism except THIS exclusionism and ableism, this one is fine I promise you okay??? :)))))" is really bad.

Since OP of the genderfail post thinks they are slick we will probably be deleting the reblog (but not before also grabbing a screenshot and archive of our own blog for posterity). The post in question in image form, edited with the water filter for easier distinction:

We're still working on the archive pages unfortunately, we may need to wait until our EOS for the majority of them, but we'll try in and off.

EDIT 2.0: Managed to add all web archive links from what we can tell.

[lunas-a-little-looney]

I'm still new to discovering I have a system (just got over that denial bridge a few weeks ago, and have been struggling mentally since (and before) then), and the system discourse online has been very... distressing? I want to lean into safe communities meant for learning about or exploring (my own) CDD, and find some sort of comraderie.

I don't understand what's happening really - I don't exactly understand endogenic systems, but I also don't understand why people would be anti-endogenic. It just seems... hateful. And purposeless.

I've seen tons of anti-endo posts (before I learned what endo meant) that made me terrified to lean too heavily into traumagen spaces (if they could say this about awful stuff about one group of people, what could they say about me? *it is very much a learned response from trauma, but it is what it is I guess*

I guess the point is to ask if you were ever anti-endo, and what has it been like since you started making pro-endo posts? I know it's silly, but I'm trying to figure all of this out and I'm terrified of receiving hate for refusing to hate someone because of how they identify

Thanks (and sorry for the book lol)

- Host

First I want to say it's not silly at all!! Being a newly discovered system is overwhelming and it's normal to want to have a community of those who understand you. It's also normal to want to avoid being harassed and fakeclaimed. I'm happy you reached out! This reply is going to be kinda long (sorry I tried to keep it short) but I did my best to address all your questions. I hope this helps! And I wish you the best on your new journey of self discovery!!

Second I would strongly recommend that you stay away from syscourse if you can. It's really draining and overwhelming even for us and we have a pretty good handle on our system. As a newly discovered system it's going to be even worse.

Unfortunately I don't have any specific recommendations for cdd focused spaces which accept endos (if anybody knows one put it in the replies!) but I will say that pro endo servers, even if they aren't focused on cdds can still be amazing for finding comradery. There will be other cdd systems there and you might find some endos who you relate to as well. Also if you want my dms are open! I'm just one person (well, not exactly) but I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have and suggest ways to help you figure out your system more!

As for why people are anti endo I think it mainly comes down to two things. First is that they think endos are saying they experience the same thing as cdd systems except without the trauma. Endos do not generally claim this*. Second is that people who've spent significant amounts of their lives under attack sometimes they start to see threats where there aren't any.

These systems have debilitating mental illnesses that are criminally misunderstood and romanticized. For them being a system is intrinsically linked with being deeply traumatized, they are not separate. So when they see a community of people claim to have systems but not trauma, they get upset. They feel like that's not possible, because it isn't possible to be a system like *theirs* without trauma. They get frustrated because they think people just want the "quirky" parts of their disorder without the painful ones. That's why they always say endos are faking did, because they can't imagine a system that doesn't have a cdd. They think endos are just people who want to feel special so they claim to have system. Once endos started becoming a part of the community, anti endos felt invaded because now there's a bunch of systems who don't have cdds in the space they thought was for them (keep in mind cdd focused spaces still exist, its just that the plural community as a whole isn't 100% focused on us anymore).

Once they feel invaded, they feel like they need to defend their community and they do that by harassing and fakeclaiming endos. Then they act like psychology is on their side (it isn't) and after that it's just increasing amounts of digging their heels in.

I think it mostly comes down to the misconception that endos claim to have did without the disorder part, and then in trying to defend themselves they turn off critical thinking and just do whatever they can to get rid of the perceived threat.

*There is a world of difference between the experiences of most endos and most cdd systems but it's not black and white. At this point the term "endo" just means anybody who is not completely traumagenic which includes mixed origin systems. Also, some endogenic systems develop cdds after being exposed to trauma, the only difference is that they were plural beforehand so they're still endogenic. There's others too. The main point is that the plural experience is incredibly personal and doesn't fit well into boxes, categorization is useful and it's important that people understand that in general there are real and big differences between endogenic plurality and cdds but there's no hard lines here.