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queerfables · 11 months

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Taking away the glass?

Oh gosh I'm actually so keen to talk about this so thank you for the opening!

Context: Responding to akaitsukicat's artwork of Crowley and Aziraphale separated by a glass wall, I said that the reason we're all such wrecks over their kiss is because after 6000 years in canon and 33 years in real life, that kiss was "taking away the glass".

The glass is a metaphor that media scholar Henry Jenkins uses to explain the appeal of slash, originally published in 1993. Here, "slash" refers to queer re-interpretation of heterosexual media, including transformative works exploring those readings.

This is what Jenkins says about the glass:

When I try to explain slash to non-fans, I often reference that moment in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan where Spock is dying and Kirk stands there, a wall of glass separating the two longtime buddies. Both of them are reaching out towards each other, their hands pressed hard against the glass, trying to establish physical contact. They both have so much they want to say and so little time to say it. Spock calls Kirk his friend, the fullest expression of their feelings anywhere in the series. Almost everyone who watches the scene feels the passion the two men share, the hunger for something more than what they are allowed. And, I tell my nonfan listeners, slash is what happens when you take away the glass. The glass, for me, is often more social than physical; the glass represents those aspects of traditional masculinity which prevent emotional expressiveness or physical intimacy between men, which block the possibility of true male friendship. Slash is what happens when you take away those barriers and imagine what a new kind of male friendship might look like. One of the most exciting things about slash is that it teaches us how to recognize the signs of emotional caring beneath all the masks by which traditional male culture seeks to repress or hide those feelings.

The vid I refer to, inspired by Jenkin's comments, is The Glass by thingswithwings. It's a beautiful vid, sad and hopeful and empowering, with a very moving commentary on fandom history. It was originally published in 2008, which is relevant to understanding the position it takes in the dialogue around queer relationships in media.

Here's thingswithwings' summary of the vid, as it appears on YouTube:

Henry Jenkins, speaking of the Spock death scene from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, said, "slash is what happens when you take away the glass." It has been said, in response, that death also happens when you take away the glass. ie, if you took away the glass Kirk would die of radiation poisoning too; the barrier between desiring men cannot be removed on pain of death. Homosexuality, or just loving touch between two people of the same gender, is equivalent to death in this media narrative. One of the interesting things about slash is the way it takes away the glass, then puts it back, then takes it away, then puts it back, often pleasurably. I think this is both problematic and powerful. It is problematic because it reasserts the impossibility of the touch (it fetishizes oppression in a negative manner); it is powerful - and good - because it dwells on and thinks about and removes the glass (it fetishizes oppression in a transformative manner). One of the interesting things about mainstream media is that it continues to put the glass back up, no matter how hard we try to tear it down. Queer desiring touches have been, and remain, imaginable but impossible. TL;DR ALTERNATE SUMMARY: THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME KIND OF INVISIBLE BARRIER IDK WHAT IT MIGHT BE

In regards to Good Omens, it's relevant that this entire conversation about homosocial relationships in media takes place within the 29 year period between the publication of Good Omens the book and the adaptation of the story to screen. The vid was created 15 years ago - which is to say 18 years after the book was published and 11 years before season 1 was released - and it talks about realised queer desire in mainstream media as being so impossible that it is equivalent to death. That is the kind of resistance that queer representation in pop culture has been up against, these last three decades.

Crowley/Aziraphale, as depicted in the book, is such a classic example of slash. I've seen some people who read the book in a contemporary context saying they didn't necessarily pick up on any subtext between the characters, and I suspect this is a mark of cultural expectations. Firstly, because the cultural references that the intentional subtext relies on have become obscured over time - see Neil Gaiman's explanation of the "consenting cycle repairmen" line. But more importantly because the audience's frame of reference for unintentional subtext has shifted, too. What is unsayable and which silences are emotionally loaded has changed over time. Even if you are intentionally using a queer lens in your reading, you might not see subtext in the same places that someone would even 10 years ago.

For example, take this passage from the book:

On the whole, neither [Aziraphale] nor Crowley would have chosen each other's company, but they were both men, or at least men-shaped creatures, of the world, and the Arrangement had worked to their advantage all this time. Besides, you grew accustomed to the only other face that had been around more or less consistently for six millennia.

On it's face, this line suggests that the relationship between the two of them is a matter of convenience more than desire. Maybe that's the intended reading and maybe that's how it started or how they justify their association to themselves, but taken together with how deeply they know each other and how they are always each other's first thought in a crisis, suddenly "neither would have chosen the other's company" sounds like an extremely British way to say they care about each other far more than they were supposed to. Plus, this is Aziraphale's take on their relationship, and it plays rather beautifully against Crowley's much simpler expression of the exact same sentiment:

Aziraphale. The Enemy, of course. But an enemy for six thousand years now, which made him a sort of friend.

To go back to Henry Jenkin's wise words, what we're seeing here is Aziraphale thinking about Crowley through the glass - through the "aspects of traditional masculinity which prevent emotional expressiveness or physical intimacy between men". If you came up in slash fandom at a time when seeing queer relationships in canon was unthinkable, you probably find it easier to identify the gap between how Aziraphale thinks about his relationship with Crowley and how their relationship actually functions. That gap was where a lot of slash lived.

You might say that the book shows Crowley and Aziraphale watching each other through the glass, and season 1 is them pressing up against it. They're still prevented from showing the full depth of feeling between them, they still hunger for more than they're allowed, but they are reaching for it. We see the history of their relationship developing through the ages. The unsayable is still left unsaid, but we feel the weight of it in everything they do. They come so very close but they still can't cross that threshold.

And then there's season 2. Within the text, Crowley and Aziraphale are not just pressing against the glass, they're actively trying to dismantle it. They're searching for a door to the other side. They're inspecting for weak points where they could cut their way through. And then suddenly they're out of time and out of options and the glass is still between them, and there's nothing they can do.

As the audience, you feel that desperation. You feel that grief. And if you're someone who's been watching the glass go back up on every relationship you thought might stand a chance of tearing it down, it hits hard. You're longing vicariously with the characters, but you're longing for yourself too, to see queer desire made possible. To see queer touch made not just imaginable but real.

And then, with all hope lost, Crowley throws himself through the glass. It doesn't matter that it doesn't save them. They kiss and it changes everything. Queer desire is no longer up for debate. Queer touch is no longer impossible. They kiss and the glass shatters, entirely and irrevocably.

This is why it matters so much that they did kiss, even though the love between them was already undeniable. For thirty years, Crowley and Aziraphale were part of a media landscape that relentlessly reinforced the glass at every turn and flooded fatal radiation through any crack they couldn't fix. In a different context, that kiss would be less vital to affirming their relationship. But in the world we live in, with the specific history that this story has, I don't think anything else could have done what it did. The glass between these characters had been reinforced over decades, in a culture that made the barriers to open intimacy between men inescapable. Their kiss was what it took to break it.

And by shattering the glass, this story has fundamentally rewritten what is possible. It proves the rules preventing true affection between people of the same gender can be defied. Queer people are already becoming more visible in pop culture; we're no longer reliant on slash reimagining queer longing between heterosexual leads. But Crowley and Aziraphale's kiss is cathartic and vindicating in an entirely different way. It turns slash into intentional queerness. It takes a fetishisation of oppression vacillating between problematic and transformative, and finally stands up on the side of powerful, empowering transformation. It confronts the barriers that once rendered this desiring touch impossible, and breaks through them once and for all.

That's what taking away the glass means. That's what Good Omens did.

#good omens #good omens meta #taking away the glass #fandom history #ineffable husbands #aziracrow #fable talks good omens

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bardicious · 28 days

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Honestly tired of the criticism SNW gets from specifically Tumblr (cause when I check reddit, they love it lots). Like, there are some nitpicky ass people here.

Imo, the Gorn are awesome (you saw them once in TOS, get over it!), Spock/Chapel make sense and were always plausible (Also Spock had his fair share of female love interests in TOS that he knew less than Christine), regarding the silly episodes where Spock gets turned "human" or the new one where the crew turns "vulcan" (In quotes because a. I don't think the intention is for them to be accurate representation of either race b. we all just gonna ignore all the silly ass episodes in TOS like they're not part of the series' bread and butter), the musical episode was literally the best musical episode in the entirety of the genre of rando show doing a musical episode.

Spock this Spock that, there's so many complaints about Spock as if the Menagerie didn't have ooc Spock. The complaints about not having enough screen time for this character or that, like, again, let's be real, this show is for people who specifically loved TOS, of course you're going to have lots of Spock, Chapel, Uhura and yes, Jim also (because he's beyond crucial to Star Trek's legacy), and yes, maybe there should be more Ortega and idk whoever that other pilot is, but you still have focus on Pike, Una, and La'an, which is pretty damn good for a show that only has 10 episodes a season.

Lovely to see that the show has a 98% from Rotten Tomatoes, and a 93% from Google Users, which imo, despite the wackos I've seen on this site, is what really matters and means the show is going to keep trucking along despite a minority of negativity.

My long winded way to say, I can't wait for season 3! ❤️

#Where No Man Has Gone Before and Then Some #star trek #star trek strange new worlds #strange new worlds #star trek tos #I blocked like almost everyone that had some annoying commentary about the show #so Idk - people might still be complaining out there #but I find it crazy that tumblr is SO annoying about trek #maybe this one in particular idk #also just annoyed at gorn complaints - like I'm sorry captain pike is not fighting a slow ass man in a lizard costume wearing short shorts #I get the feeling Ill start seeing complaints on here again next year when the season comes out #Im so excited tho - it feels a lot like classic shows - which I prefer generally speaking #I love episodics SO much #hope they make more comebacks

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sleepymccoy · 7 months

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Please choose your favourite of my (imo) niche star trek headcanons

Now that I'm writing these, I wonder if any of them are straight up canon that I've forgotten lol

I'm gonna further defend my headcanons under a readmore, but it's up to you if you want to read that or just vote on the summary 😘

Scotty's actor is Canadian. Also he's so Scottish? Like, he's called Scotty, he drinks scotch, he is Scottish, so on. Too much. I think he has Scottish heritage, maybe his mum is Scottish, so he knows the phrases and his accent work is comedic but solid. But he himself was born in like Quebec

I have a whole post on McCoy's ex wife being Vulcan, it rules, give it a read here

The way America crumbles in trek history I think opens them up to invasion. I don't think Russia is still in charge, I think they've moved on from that and country borders are less political more cultural in TOS times. But I think briefly Russia had everything and Chekhov is joking about that when he says shit like that saying is Russian. We know, Chekhov, everything was Russian once, get over it. His joke is less about things being Russian and more like someone making the same joke about how everything was Roman once

TOS writers had a little cheat sheet of characterisation rules I saw here once and one said that Sulu has many varying interests, so if you need an info dump that's not one of the other main guys things, use him. So I've taken that and gone with he isn't actually into plants, it was just a six month project to better learn how to take care of them. He spent a lot of time complaining about them to Chekhov. Basically a hyper fixation and once he figured it out he lost interest, but retained all the knowledge

Cos Rand has that trick of heating up the coffee with a phaser on low. That's resourceful with ship technology that uses batteries, not mainframe power. I think she knows what matters when a ship breaks, and food and comfort need prioritising cos she grew up on a ship that was always broken. Broken ships are easier to tolerate if the coffee is served hot

I think Chapel's fiance kinda sucks in that ep, even if it was just a robot copy, and I think she loves being in space. I think she feels both relieved and guilty about it all, it's bad

#star trek tos #poll #star trek

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basimdasasonst · 3 months

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snw spock rant

i've been watching strange new worlds recently, and the prevailing feeling i always leave with, no matter the episode, is that i would like it if not for spock.

don't get me wrong; i'm a tos fan to my core. star trek launched me into a love of sci-fi and space fiction and is the whole reason i'm in university studying astrophysics, why i'm writing a book using said inner astrophysics nerd, why i have any sense of purpose to me, cliche as it is to say. star trek was an integral, important part of my upbringing, and continues to be one of my main interests to this day. i love jim (and i love snw jim! especially after aos kirk (shudders)) and i love bones (i really hope he joins snw soon....leonard mccoy save us....save us leonard mccoy...) and i love scotty and i love spock. but not snw spock.

here's the thing about spock: his internal character conflicts have always had some sort of root in him being not enough/not vulcan enough/not human enough/etc. his struggles with relationships as a result – because, lets face it, both humans and vulcans are social creatures and need friends otherwise society as a whole wouldn't be a thing on either world – make up a core part of his character. in tos, his relationship struggles were nearly purely platonic, with a few offhand remarks about stray crew members having crushes on him (uhura in early first season, chapel in amok time).

s1e4 "the naked time". spock, right before losing his figurative Marbles, sees "love mankind" written on a wall. later, he goes on to say to jim: "when i feel friendship for you, i'm ashamed." other posts have done and will do better jobs of explaining it, but in conjunction with "sinner" written on the turbolift near jim (about not being able to form lasting relationships with other crewmates because its too much of a power imbalance), the writing on the wall (literally) is that spock is inherently ashamed of his humanity. he has been raised on vulcan to be a vulcan.

his internal conflict is always about him struggling with his human side. he struggles with friendship, he struggles with his humanity, he struggles to be something that people don't immediately deem wrong. as a gay man, and certainly as a young queer child first watching tos, i felt closest to spock not just because of feeling ashamed of part of my cultural heritage, but also because of repression. spock represses these feelings of insecurity, of friendship, of the need for connection in others in a certain way, so much that it causes him pain. growing up gay, his pain was very real to me. writing on the wall. he’s silly and a cool character of course, but he resonated with me in a way that, at the time, i didn’t have anything to resonate with.

what does this all have to do with me hating snw spock so much? i want to preface this by saying i went into snw really wanting to love it. i saw the intro and the planets and the nebulae and the black hole and the music and was like "damn, this is fucking cool." star trek, to some part of me, was also about the space exploration aspect as much as the characters. the whims of wacky crewmembers and sentient rocks. the impossibly infinite things nature can form on its own. snw looked fun. i really wanted to like it. and you know what? i almost like it.

except for spock. quite literally the only character i have any quarrels with is spock. dehydrated, glistening, oiled up spock. wtf. why is he in a relationship with t'pring? why does he (almost) cheat on her with chapel? and why chapel??????????? chapel has a one-sided (VERY CLEARLY ONE SIDED) crush on him in tos. why is it two sided now.

what, and i can't stress this enough, the fuck?

and don't come into my house and tell me "oh you know, it makes sense, because, because then spock gets all hard and Logical and shuts himself off and obviously the reason for that is a breakup–" No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no no no no. i don't care if it makes “sense” it feels so intrinsically wrong to his character. i’ve had much more character development from losing life-long friends than ending barely a year long relationships. spock wouldn’t immediately shut down because he kissed a girl once and then she said “acshually sowwy my work is more important” when that’s the exact sentiment he echoed to t’pring when they broke up.

more importantly, snw spock barely has friends. he calls pike a friend once or twice, but i hardly believe that they're friends. he barely interacts with la'an or erica, he has a few passing conversations with uhura in season 1 on episodes about her that don't really carry into season 2, and otherwise he's just There. he doesn't have friends in snw. the writers are prioritising him having a romantic relationship over a friendship. snw spock needs a friend way more than he needs a bone buddy. and it really rubs me the wrong way the way the relationship with chapel was portrayed to be first friendly and then romantic. i never believed for a second that he and chapel were friends – despite the screenwriters trying. every time they talked prior to s2e5 there was this odd undercurrent of sexuality that seemed to follow them. lingering looks, touching fingertips, long pauses – it was so unbelievably awkward and obvious that they were setting up a relationship between the two. i mean, for fucks sake, s1e1 uhura calls chapel "spock's girlfriend." boy did my blood boil when i figured out that was where the show was going. s1e5 was actually painful for me to get through (chapel sits down, gives spock relationship advice, giggles, smacks him upside the head, and calls him an idiot. 2017 wattpad is calling, they want their material back) and i had to take two full days to get through s2e5 because i was in anguish the whole time. it was a constant mental barrage of "spock wouldn't say that," and "spock wouldn't do that," and "this is not spock."

for the most part, i couldn't figure out why spock and chapel's relationship specifically bothered me so much. i mean i have my quarrels with la'an and jim, and i really don't give much of a care about pike and batel so why was spock and chapel grating on me so badly? was it because it was being shoved in my face? was the writing that much more atrocious than the others? was it the decimation of spock's character?

it was, i found, a product of all of those and the issue of queerness.

look; i've survived sherlock bbc, i’ve survived the golden age of quotev fandom in 2016, i've bared witness to so much queerbaiting in my life that i don't even bother trying to hope for any sort of main character queer representation anymore. we’re going to be a footnote until someone does something about it. unfortunately, that’s not going to be me because i’m not a film director. so i look the other way and steam about it on twitter or tumblr or whatever hoping that i, like many other frustrated queer people, get noticed one day in the far future when it’s ok to have a queer romance in mainstream, it’s ok to have a queer main character, and it’s ok to let it simmer slowly and burn instead of jumping into it to say “look guys we’re woke!!!!!” (star trek literally was the pioneer for most of these things back in the day. but that’s another discussion on the heterosexualisation of progressive media that i wont get into. it just feels bitterly funny that this is happening to star trek of all things.) these days i just pretend the relationships dont exist and skip over them when they happen. i've developed a sixth sense for when weird, forced heterosexuality is about to be shoved down my oesophagus. i've just gotten used to it.

but sphapel (or whatever it's called) burned through me. i've never felt quite this angry at an on screen relationship. and, trust me, i saw AOS. i didn't like spuhura then and i don't like it now but i wasn't angry so much as i was just tired and annoyed. but spock was – and always is to me, confused, queer 10 year old me – a queer character. his struggle with humanity, with friendship, with fitting in, with just being as a perceived "other" was what made him an interesting character to me to begin with. he was a certain outlet to vent that frustration for being "wrong" in society no matter how hard you try to conform one way or another. the knowledge that even if you are different, you still have people backing you up. his fucking friendships, guys. jim and bones. yes i know his friendship with jim is also inherently romantic dont worry im spirk #1 shipper but that’s not relevant here because, and forgive me for being pessimistic, i don’t believe for a second that these writers are going to lean into spirk anytime soon. their relationship went beyond friendship or romance or any of that stuff. coughs in the roddenberry footnote.

what i’m trying to say here, in layman’s terms, is that giving a friendless character a romantic relationship is exactly how you alienate a character. name one person you know in real life that can survive healthily with one single relation, that being their romantic partner that they have no friendly base of. you can’t. that’s a toxic relationship. that’s not romance, that’s alienation. that’s isolation. that’s loneliness. and that’s the OPPOSITE OF WHAT EXPLORING SPOCK’S HUMAN SIDE IS SUPPOSED TO DO TO HIM .

by stripping spock of his friends, and forcing his arc to be purely romantic, you have essentially stripped the character of all he is. i'd be mad if chapel was a dude, too, honestly speaking. but beyond that, corralling spock of all people into a heterosexual romantic relationship is – well. it's a choice i don't think i can ever agree with. the best way i can describe such a choice is like a dissonant chord – you can pluck the notes and they'll sound fine on their own, but when you put them together they will clash. there is nothing you can do with your fingers to play the same notes and not cause the clash. they will always clash. it is dissonance ringing through you, an inherent wrongness coupled with writing that is lazy and clearly meant for a very specific audience. snw spock is bad writing, fanservice, and extraordinarily out of character. notes i can tolerate on their own, but strung together – dissonant.

i really want to like snw. fuck, i love la'an, i love erica, i love jim (!!! thank you paul wesley for making him a nerd, and kind (glares at AOS), and generally a jim kirk that i can look at and say, "yeah, that's jim alright"), i love uhura, i love una, i love m'benga and i love pike but i hate spock. i really, truly, cannot like snw when i have to pause the show and take an irritated deep breath in every time i see chapel approach spock. it's – frustrating, and alienating, and wrong. so, so wrong.

#spock #snw spock #star trek #star trek snw #star trek strange new worlds #star trek spock #mr spock #spirk #star trek tos #star trek the original series #strange new worlds #snw

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major-comet · 3 months

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one of the things that’s most interesting to me about red vs blue

[and this is true of a lot of the shows i’ve watched over the years (here’s looking at you, star trek and rwby volumes 1-3), but i find it particularly true for rvb]

is that the writers seem to have very little grasp on what some of the most interesting and compelling parts of the show actually are, especially from a character perspective

so much stuff only gets kind of brought up, or honestly never even really touched on that would fully be enough to compel me as a character plot for an entire season At Least

like the whole “sarge is apparently some kind of robotics/surgery Wizard because not only did all of simmons’ cyborg parts not get rejected, none of the bits of simmons that grif now has rejected either. this is a medical miracle and it’s something about the pair that is almost Never brought up” thing. they barely even acknowledged that simmons has a whole ass robot arm, much less that grif is physically almost as much simmons as simmons himself is

or the “hey actually epsilon kind of just taking over as “church” actually has a lot of potential for body snatchers-esque horror that they never ever lean into” that i was talking about the other day

or how they only really explore the deeper effects of ai-human integration from a negative aspect - o’malley and the meta and such, but don’t *really* dive in on the effects it might have on a pair that works really well together. epsilon and carolina kind of get the closest to that, but even then it’s still pretty surface level. where’s the weird shit about a pair slowly becoming more of a *we* and those boundaries of human and ai blurring into human&ai in a way that feels not parasitic, but symbiotic? where both parties are not only aware of what’s happening, but perfectly content with it? like maybe i just have venom on the brain, but the ai are like the coolest shit burnie ever wrote and i feel like even though they drive the plot for huge chunks of the show they were barely explored. (i’m saying that delta and york should have had weird freaky mind sex. hello is this thing on-)

or the implication (confirmation? idk man it’s been a long time) that sarge may have been an ODST is actually a Massive addition to rvb’s underlying (and i think sometimes only dubiously intentional) themes of “once a soldier has outweighed their perceived usefulness, the government will not hesitate to cast them aside completely, no matter what they sacrificed for the cause, and this has negative lasting effects not just on that veteran but on society as a whole” that they do kind of sort of explore with locus a bit, but the implication that sarge was highly specialized and did a lot of particularly risky shit for the unsc only for him to, unbeknownst to him, wind up as a training dummy for soldiers perceived as “better” than him (and not even really that, picked explicitly because florida thought he would be totally harmless to the alpha) is INSANE and “sarge was an odst” mostly exists in rvb canon just as a joke but Jesus H Christ, man

there’s so much great material here that just got totally ditched for something else and it makes me SAD sometimes

#comet posting #rvb #red vs blue #rvb sarge #epsilon rvb #dexter grif #dick simmons #simmons rvb #long post #delta rvb #york rvb #yeah i’ll go ahead and tag them why not #grimmons

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celaenaeiln · 10 months

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Nothing in Batman comics is canon because it’s literally 90% fanfiction written after the actual creators stopped writing the characters.

anon it doesn't work that way.

By that logic, practically noone exists because the original writer of Batman, Bob Kane and Bill Finger, only created Bruce, Dick, Alfred, and the villains gallery. That's it.

No Barbara, no Jason, no Tim, no Damian, Steph, Cass, Duke, Lucius, Tim Fox, Kate, Talia - there's no one then.

But suppose we go back on that statement and say 'well actually, the creators of new characters', which still doesn't make sense but let's go with that. Then major plots wouldn't happen. Because Max Allan Collins and Chris Warner created Jason Todd but Judd Winick is the one who brought him back to life. Marv Wolfman and Pat Broderick created Tim Drake but Alan Grant wrote a lot of the Robin comic and Batman comic characterization for him.

It's physically impossible to say that just because other people continued the series, the comics can't be taken seriously.

Comics are the source material. Of which fanfics are based on.

The Star Trek and Star Wars book series are written by multiple different authors but that doesn't mean that what's written doesn't happen or isn't true or is wrong. The 39 Clues and Doctor Who series are the same deal.

Batman comics are canon. Because if only the works of the original authors of Batman were to be considered canon, then practically everyone in the Batman universe doesn't exist/doesn't matter. Because they're just fanfic then.

But this idea doesn't just stop at the Batman fandom anymore because every comic was written this way. The people in Superfam? Gone. Flashfam? Gone. Arrowfam? Gone. Like this logic doesn't just apply to Batman, it applies to virutally every character in the existence of DC.

The beauty of comics is seeing how the next writer will continue the story. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they need tweaking, and sometimes they're wrong although that's usually very rare.

The problem with fandom's view on comic writing is the belief that whatever the authors create must match our perspective of the characters. That's wrong. Their characterization is what we should be adding on/building on to our perspective of the characters. Unless there is something so wrong, something so illogical, that it must be noted because that character has never acted that way before, then we must discard or critisize a comic.

Comics develop. Characters develop. Each writer brings something new and adds a layer of depth to each character they write about. That's how we get new interactions, new relationships, new sides that make each character interesting.

Take the original Dick Grayson comic and his intro to Robin

Detective Comics (1937) Issue #38

Dick originally wanted to go to the police. He had no intention of going after Tony Zucco but Bruce is the one who demands they go after him together by themselves!

I love this version created by Bob Kane and Bill Finger, but I also love the version created by a completely different author where Dick decides to stake out Zucco on his own. Both versions show different sides of him and authors sometimes even choose which one they want to include. Some have gone with this version where Dick tries to go to the police before being interrupted by Bruce and others have gone with the second, more famous version. But neither of them are bad and you can't say that the one where Dick goes after Tony Zucco is fanfiction. It's canon. If it's written in comics, it happened unless there's some disastrous, glaring contradiction.

You have to understand, these comics - especially Dick and Bruce's - are nearly 100 years old. Dick, and it's wild to think about this, existed before even the Justice League did. Wonder Woman, Green Arrow, and Aquaman were all created after him. If the orginial writers stopped writing, and noone picked it up, there would be no Justice League and that's a problem because the Justice League is one of the foundations of the DC comics.

So much has changed in a century and new writers constantly come in to show that change. That's why comics after the original writers finish writing are still canon and important. The original characterizations of all these major players were all super peppy and cheerful before new writers added angst and drama to their backstories. Bruce and Dick used to laugh and grin when they went crime fighting with no sadness or anger or other emotions. It wasn't until a couple decades later where writers started writing that in which is how we get the grim avenger Batman today.

Here's the third point to why they're relevant even though they're written by new authors: the passage of time in real life, is included in canon comics characterizations.

One comic talks about Dick discussing the Joker and he says, "at the beginning, it was just all fun and games. He would cause problems but at the end of the day it was a game. But one day, things went too far. People got shot. That day, the Joker changed. He was darker and evil. It wasn't games anymore."

This comic panel talks about the Golden Age to now, the progression and development of characters.

The comics and reality are inseparable because reality is literally written in. The works of writers after the orignal ones aren't arbitrary or some whimsical thing.

It's very different from fanfiction because fanfiction has no need to stick to the truth or canon characterization but these comic writers do because they have an obligation to do so. The only problem they might have is accidentally focusing too much on one aspect of a character and neglecting the other parts but almost none of them are way off the mark.

So no, for the sake of characterization, personality development, plot events, and new interactions, all comics are extremely important and definitely canon. Us readers might have different opinions and thoughts on them but it's irrelevant in the face of the fact that the comics are the only truth to which we can base our interpretations on.

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marzipanandminutiae · 1 year

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how does antiquing work in Star Trek?

like, okay, there's no scarcity Because Replicators. great! except you can't replicate an antique, not the real thing. probably some AMAZING reproductions- 24th-century historical costumers must be having the time of their lives, because as great as modern synthetic baleen is, imagine what you could do with a machine that literally replicates the exact molecular structure of the same! or that extinct flax that made medieval linen so great! -but I know antique collectors. there's nothing like the feeling of something you know so many other people have loved for centuries

is it like a barter system? do you go to the antique "shop" with things passed down in your family or found in the equivalent of a Facebook buy-nothing group, and trade what you have for what the history nerd running the place has based on your respective interests?

is Brimfield like a giant swap meet? could I go with, say...a big bag full of my grandmother's chunky 1950s costume jewelry and trade it for 1880s blouse waists because the stall owner wants the former and I want the latter? equivalent value wouldn't matter- what's value, beyond how much you treasure something? nobody's got rent to make or bills to pay, after all

do people become antiques "dealers" just for the thrill of the hunt and the pleasure of matching an object to someone who will love it? you don't have to work, after all; you can spend your whole life searching the world for rare treasures if that brings you joy

this is a nice thought

#star trek #worldbuilding #oh my god think of the wonderful materials you could have at your disposal to make clothes out of though #with replicators #as much merino and silk-velvet and cashmere as you wanted. aforementioned Good Linen. the lightest #sheerest voile imaginable #forget pajama jumpsuits; their world could gain back some of the sensory textile richness ours has lost #furs- anything you wanted! from any animal! because it's not FROM the animal but it's exactly the same!#it's not 'faux fur' made of plastic- it IS the real thing #hi my name is Marzi and I grew up on TNG but internalized NONE of the aesthetic and got bored in the battle scenes

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your-name-is-jim · 1 year

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What a Kirk/Spock shipper sees in a Kirk/Female-Love-Interest story [PART 2/2]

Part 1 <- Please read Part 1 first. Part 2 won't make sense otherwise!

This panel is absolutely AMAZING and you all deserved to see it :D

So, what were we talking about? Oh, yeah, Laura just proposed.

As you can see, Jim is panicking not sure what to answer, so the first thing he does is calling his two best friends. There are so many things going on here; I'll try to mention everything I care about!

"Starfleet is getting a lot better at partners of equal rank working together."

This is an important part of this comic: apparently, in this story Starfleet isn't encouraging relationships between officers with a different rank. I know it's sort of implied in canon too, but it's not always clear if it's actually against regulations or if it's fine when the ranks are close.

As a K/S shipper, this detail just gives me an in-universe reason why Jim and Spock aren't considering dating each other in this story: a commander can't probably have a relationship with a captain. I mean, we already know from canon TOS that Jim avoids relationships with the members of his crew, so this just adds a layer to a potential forbidden love story between them. Yeah, I know this isn't what this comic is trying to do, but what can I say? Fans don't stop shipping something just because they learn it's not allowed in-universe… if anything, they can find it more exciting! :D

"We could teach at the Academy. Mind you, she laughed at that idea."

Oh, wait. Jim actually talked to Laura about their possible future together! It looks like he's thinking about them as teachers at Starfleet Academy. Hmm… this sounds familiar:

2277 — Accepts appointment to Academy faculty, moves into San Francisco apartment

This is from Kirk's biography in Star Trek official website. Between The Motion Picture and The Wrath of Khan, Jim accepts a job at the Academy. We see it at the start of the second movie, after Saavik takes the Kobayashi Maru test.

Wait, who's the other teacher here? :D

Okay, okay, in that era Jim is an admiral and Spock is a captain, so their ranks are still different, but except for that… They both teach at the Academy. And it's literally what Jim proposed to his love interest Laura in the comic! With my Kirk/Spock goggles on, what I read in that panel is "If Laura and I got married, we could both do this thing that I'm totally going to do with Spock in the future." LOL

Did the comic creators notice the parallel? Probably not. However, we K/S shippers have special skills for finding accidental implications about our ship everywhere, so here it is :)

"Your thoughts, please, Mr. Spock."

I said I had a lot to say about that single panel, so of course I can't skip the last line! A human woman has just proposed to Jim, and what does Jim do? He asks for Spock's opinion. This says a lot about Jim and Spock's friendship, and it's very sweet on Jim's part, but it also makes me think about Jim's love life. What about Jim and Laura's romantic feelings for each other? Does Jim want to spend the rest of his life with her? Perhaps the reason they don't talk about it (not even with Bones!) is that it's implied that Jim loves her and she loves him, even if they never say it. However, I still think it's interesting that Jim's discussion on the matter is mostly "logical".

Anyway, I swear I won't post every single panel of this comic, but Spock's reply is an absolute gem you all must see:

"I AM SOMETHING OF AN EXPERT ON THE SUBJECT OF JAMES T. KIRK."

(dkjflsdjlkdjglk brb losing my mind again)

Ahem. Okay, Spock. Noted. Also, wow, nice make up. Did I say that the art in this comic is great? Good.

"I believe someone of equal status would offer you the best possible chance of happiness."

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I find interesting his use of "equal status" instead of the more specific "equal rank". Status makes me think less of their official position in Starfleet, and more of how two people actually see each other. It's not just about Laura and Jim being both captains; it's about them seeing each other as equals.

Anyway, Jim jokes about Bones and Spock finally agreeing about something, and the conversation continues.

Jim's best friends are both encouraging him to marry Laura. In this panel, I zoomed in on Bones because his words are especially interesting. Based on everything we've seen so far, it looks like having a romantic partner when you're in Starfleet is a pain in the ass in general in this comic; however, Bones is pointing out that for the first time, Jim has someone who really understands. Of course, that's because she's a Starfleet captain too.

About Spock, I won't share the entire conversation, but I just want to say that as a K/S shipper who likes to think Spock is secretly in love with Jim in this era, I find his dialogue where he's supporting Jim's relationship with Laura totally reasonable. It's important to remember that this comic takes place close to the end of the five-year mission. We know that Spock is going to run away after that, trying to erase all his emotions in Gol. So, in this specific part of his story, I find pretty in character that he'd tell Jim to find happiness with someone else. That's what he'd do, regardless of his own feelings.

So, Jim knows his two best friends think he should say "yes" to Laura. What happens next?

During a mission, Jim meets his ex Carol Marcus. She is surprised to find out that Jim is considering settling down. This is not completely related to this analysis, so I won't post it, but I found interesting that Carol knows about every single woman Jim dated before he became captain (the only one she doesn't name is Ruth), and she even says "And that woman in 1930, what was her name?" Just… how the hell does she know? LMAO

At least Jim hasn't told her about Miramanee and Rayna (well, technically he doesn't even remember the latter), but seriously, Carol does know a lot about Jim's private life, even if it's clear she doesn't want her or their son to be part of it. (Not really related to this plot, but in case you're confused about the timeline: David is a child in this era; however, he doesn't appear in this story.)

Anyway, this is what she eventually tells him:

So, I like to think that Carol is genuinely trying to help Jim here, because the spiteful ex girlfriend is another thing I don't really want to see in 2020. I want to think that the creators meant well; however, what happens in the story is that, despite Jim not seeing himself outside the captain's chair, and despite his best friends telling him to marry the captain that is just like him… Jim keeps thinking about Carol's words.

He knows from Starfleet that he's going to be promoted to admiral the moment he reaches Earth. What is interesting here is that Jim could refuse the promotion and be a captain with Laura. This is definitely a different situation from everything else I've seen before. It's obvious to anyone who has watched TOS movies that Jim is not happy as an admiral. He didn't really want to be one. He doesn't want to be one in this comic series either (you can see it explored in Star Trek: Year Five main story). However, thanks to The Motion Picture, we also know that he will accept promotion at the end of his five-year mission. This isn't a canon divergence story: the writers can't really change any major event, so they have to work with what canon offers.

What I find interesting is that in this 2020 comic, Jim finds himself in the opposite situation he is in Gene Roddenberry's The Motion Picture novelization from 1979. In Roddenberry's novel, it's mentioned briefly that Jim starts a relationship on Earth with a vice-admiral, a woman that was basically asked to use her charm to keep Jim grounded. Jim could refuse promotion, but he finds himself lost, without his ship, without Spock, and eventually without Bones. So he tries to convince himself that a life as an admiral with a perfect woman by his side will be good for him (it will not; Jim himself will realize a year later that his lover was an "Enterprise-surrogate").

Now, I understand trying to write something fresher and more modern in this Valentine's Day special, but I confess that I find a little hard to believe that Jim would accept a promotion as admiral if the alternative was keeping both a starship AND a wife. Also, let's not forget that Spock and Bones are both telling him to choose the married captain life. So, while I totally get from a writer's point of view that if you can't change canon, you have to work with what you have, I'm also not sure that Carol reminding Jim that he's always wanted to challenge himself is enough to make him doubt everything.

I guess I can sort of see that as part of a bigger problem: Jim knows he can't be a captain for life; during his first date with Laura, as we saw in Part 1 of my analysis, he talks about it.

"I've been thinking lately about whether I could ever stop being a Starfleet captain. Whether I could ever want to. A friend of mine talks about 'infinite diversity'. That applies to the Federation, too. But here I am, only built for one thing."

So, Jim knows he has probably avoided the subject for too long. Carol is forcing him to think about it. And, more implicitly, we could say Spock and his IDIC philosophy are also making him think, even if it's not what Spock would have expected. After all, Spock told Jim to marry Laura (in the comic), and he'll tell him that being a starship captain is his "first, best destiny" (in The Wrath of Khan).

Anyway, Jim eventually decides to meet Laura and talk to her about his personal concerns. First of all, we find out that the two of them haven't called each other for six weeks. Laura is still waiting for Jim's answer, and she didn't want to call him. If you ask me, their lack of communication is yet another a big clue that perhaps getting married is not a great idea.

Well, now Jim is at least trying to talk to her.

Aaand that's how she breaks up with him.

I'm not sure how to feel about this. I mean, in a sense, Jim doesn't say "I decided to be an admiral instead of marrying you", but Laura definitely sees it that way. I think he was genuinely looking for help, but that just proves that Laura isn't the right person for him. Why marrying someone you can't communicate with? They are such a great team as captains, but it looks like that doesn't apply to their relationship. I pointed out other clues in the previous parts, and now we got this. It's interesting to see that Jim in this comic can have a normal conversation about his future with Spock, Bones, and even Carol Marcus, but not with the person he's supposed to build a future with. Unless something changes between them, it can't work out.

Anyway, this isn't the end.

A year later, when Jim is an admiral on Earth, there's a sudden emergency. A miniature black hole appears out of the deep structure of the universe (don't blame me for the science, I'm literally quoting the comic LOL) and it's attracted to Earth gravity. Short story: they're all going to die, but fortunately the Drake (Laura's ship) can cause an anti-matter implosion that will shunt the black hole outside their reality. Unfortunately, that also means the Drake will have to go inside the black hole. Laura evacuates her crew and asks Admiral Kirk to give her the order to proceed. Reluctantly, Jim tells her that he knows she'll do it, and he gives the order.

Now, please appreciate The Motion Picture aesthetic:

Okay, I know I could have chosen a panel with Jim and Laura, since this is literally their love story, but I did say this analysis was going to be biased, so here is Laura with her two closest friends instead; they would never let her risk her life alone! <3 They are very obviously meant to be a parallel to what Spock and Bones are to Jim, which is very cute to see. Now, Laura, listen to me: I know the three of you have different ranks, but you may die in a few seconds… And I just think that the few times your friends appear in this comic, you have a lot of chemistry with them, sooo maybe you should forget about Jim and just smooch one of them, or both… just saying :)

Ahem. Anyway, after Laura and her girlfriends disappear into the void, there's another timeskip. This time it's 15 years.

Oh, damn.

I said in the premise of this analysis that one of the reasons I decided to read this comic despite shipping Kirk/Spock is that, in my headcanon, Kirk and Spock get together after The Motion Picture. Until this point, this comic hasn't really gone against my headcanon. I can genuinely believe that Jim had another girlfriend during his five-year mission; it's not a big deal. Unfortunately for me, this comic has its last part taking place around The Final Frontier era. Dammit.

Well, it's just one comic. I read until this point; it'd be illogical not to read until the end, right? Nah, it's not logic. It's human curiosity. I know I won't like it, but I still want to see it.

Also, if there's something that I really don't want to see in modern media anymore, is female characters dying just to make male characters suffer. I can accept that in TOS show because it was made in the 1960s, but even TOS movies got better about it! Characters like Saavik and Gillian can have their own lives without having to die for a man's pain. It's not a coincidence that the writers had to kill Spock to make Jim suffer. Without digressing too much, I just wanted to say that K/S bias aside, I went into this comic hoping to read something different from another dead woman for Jim. I'm very glad that, at least about this, the comic creators didn't disappoint me!

So, in this story, it's been 15 years since Laura's disappearance (actually, it should be more, but I'll try not to nitpick, despite being the trekkies' favorite hobby :D). Anyway, the one with the whales The Voyage Home happened, and Jim is not an admiral anymore. He's happy to have a starship again, but he hasn't stopped questioning his life decisions.

We can also see that, 15 years later, he's reading the book Laura liked.

HOLD IT! WAIT WAIT WAIT! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME??? WHAT THE--

*inhales deeply*

(Friendly reminder to myself that what is obvious to me may not be obvious to everyone else, so I need to explain. Fine. I'll try.)

The screenshots I posted are from The Wrath of Khan, right after Spock's funeral. What Jim is doing there is reading the end of the book that Spock gave him for his birthday. He's mourning Spock.

In the comic panel, Jim has a new pair of glasses, because it takes place a little later in the timeline. But, except for that…

It's the same scene.

The same fucking scene.

I mean, come on! I can't even post the "they're the same picture" meme, because it's not funny if they're literally the same picture! Even the bookmark is the same!

The comic creators literally took a canon scene about Jim reading Spock's book after Spock is gone, and they redrew it with Jim reading Laura's book after Laura is gone. In a Valentine's Day special. Where Laura is Jim's love interest. They made a romantic scene with Jim and a woman that was originally about Jim and Spock.

(Brb, I'm going to chew a pillow until I calm down.)

So. Well. If you wondered why I thought there was something about Kirk/Spock in this comic… you have your answer. Perhaps the artist didn't think anything about it. I certainly do.

And I guess someone could say, "But Jim is still reading Laura's book 15 years later! That's true love!" Why yes, he's not reading Spock's book 15 years later, because he didn't stay without Spock for 15 years; he risked everything and lost all the most important things in his life to save Spock's soul.

Anyway, back to the comic. Starfleet receives a signal from the edge of Federation space. It's the Drake. Laura and her friends are alive.

Jim and Laura have a reunion after a long separation. Since they're both captains now, Jim thinks they are given a second chance.

Oh, whoops.

It's her turn now. It looks like being away for 15 years has changed her (as you can expect, honestly), and she's now glad to become an admiral. In this comic, that means Jim can't marry her. So, this is how the story ends:

So. Um.

This isn't a bad ending, but I also wouldn't exactly call it a happy ending. It's certainly not a happily ever after story. I'd call it open, maybe hopeful? Honestly, pretty much what I'd expect from a love story between an original character and Jim, so I can't say the writing is disappointing about that.

On the other hand, I can't personally imagine middle-aged Jim being so eager to start a romance again with someone he hasn't seen in 15 years who broke up with him 16 years ago. Perhaps he felt guilty about Laura's disappearance because if he had married her, they would have been part of a colonization fleet somewhere else and the incident wouldn't have happened the same way? Maybe. Personally, I would have found more believable an ending where Jim asks her to have dinner together or go for a walk, and then something romantic happening as they get to know each other again. But I can see why the creators wanted to bring up the marriage proposal again, just to close the circle. The comic is just 32 pages, so they did what they could.

"Unless there's someone else." "Not so much. I've been really busy."

Busy with what? Oh, right: Spock's death, Spock's body on Genesis, Spock's rebirth on Vulcan, the time travel (okay, that one wasn't 100% Spock-related), Spock's brother… Honestly, just say there's been a lot of Spock in your life, Jim, because that's the truth :)

On a more serious note, I guess that dialogue could mean that Jim has someone, but "he's been too busy" to do anything serious with them. However, as a K/S monoshipper I don't really like the idea of Jim being in an open relationship with Spock, so Jim's character in the entire scene in the end is just a big NOPE for me. Sorry.

That said, I found very interesting that in a few panels they show very clearly the "captain" rank on Jim and Laura's shoulders, to point out that it's the same. They can't be together forever, but they can have fun for a few days as captains. Because of that, I went back to the start of the last timeskip, just to check out something:

Fascinating.

This is a pretty detailed panel, where you can see the ranks on the shoulders of Jim's friends; the colors of their pins are also pretty good, close to the ones in the movies… except for Spock's.

Oh, please. Did you really expect me not to pay attention to this? :)

Captain Kirk and Captain Spock.

And unlike Laura, this is what they are until the end! The end of a very long life! Generations? What's Generations? Spock will eventually become an ambassador, but that's just a different job. How did Spock himself put it earlier in this comic?

"I am something of an expert on the subject of James T. Kirk. And I believe someone of equal status would offer you the best possible chance of happiness."

Did the comic creators just play themselves? I don't know, I'm quoting their own story here! LOL

And what about Jim's words from the same scene? :D

"Starfleet is getting a lot better at partners of equal rank working together."

Partners. Of equal rank. Working together.

That's literally what Kirk and Spock are since the end of The Voyage Home! Without an expiration date!

The comic creators made a big deal in their universe about relationships being better between two captains, and how good Jim and Laura may have been for each other if they had married as captains; and now they can't have their happily ever after because Laura is going to be an admiral… But even if the comic tries to hide it, we know there is a captain in Jim's life. And to make things better, Jim lost his admiral rank to bring him back. Listen, I'm a huge Old Married Kirk/Spock fan, so there's no way anything can make me forget that in the last TOS movies they're both captains. And there's no way I can forget that Jim risked his entire career (and everything else!) for Spock, and that's literally why he's not an admiral anymore.

This is almost ironic in this Valentine's Day comic. If it hadn't been for Spock, Jim would have still been an admiral, and he could have married Laura. Whoops. Too bad.

Speaking of admirals, I didn't notice it at first, but there's also something about this line Laura says in the last panel I posted…

"And don't you dare 'Admiral' me."

Ah, yes, a typical thing you tell someone you're planning to have sex with. Right, Laura? Agreed :)

Honestly, at this point I should just stop checking this comic, because I wonder if I'd just end up finding a Kirk/Spock version of every Kirk/Laura Rhone line LOL

By the way, I have other thoughts to share now that the story is over, but there's one more thing first. Do you remember the last panels of the comic? Middle-aged Jim and Laura kiss; END.

Okay. After that, the comic has a picture of the cover, with Jim and Laura kissing when they're younger.

And then it has this:

dklsfjlskjflskjlksjlkdlkgjdlfgsnfjekniuwanf LISTEN, HOW--

Just how am I even supposed to say anything that makes sense about this…??? I'm just… I can't…

Okay. So. We're talking about a Valentine's Day comic. It makes sense for it to include a cute Valentine card. I also get that Spock's iconic line has become so mainstream that it can be quoted out of context. And you can make parodies.

But… But… A Star Trek TOS fan can't really forget the original context of "I have been and always shall be your friend"? Someone could just not think about it, I guess… But, well, I know that at least I can't forget that this is literally Spock's line to Jim rewritten in a romantic Valentine's Day version. I can't possibly NOT think about it!

And I know it's very possible that the people who worked on the comic story weren't even aware of this extra, but the fact that I'm seeing this after reading about Jim Kirk's romance without happily ever after… Jim kisses a woman he can't stay with forever, and then there's Spock's "I have been and always shall be your Valentine". It's just so fucking funny. I can't. If I was feeling a little down after seeing middle-aged Jim wanting to marry Laura, now I'm laughing again. Thanks, Spock's silly Valentine card. I needed it! :D

Anyway, what did I say about this comic taking things originally created for Kirk and Spock's relationship and making them romantic when they're not about them? I can believe that sometimes it's a coincidence, but this card? Please… In a sense, this is the perfect ending.

---

Conclusions.

I started this comic with a question: in 2020, how do you write a story about TOS Kirk falling in love? I wanted to see this attempt. Overall, I think the creators did what they could. Laura is different from every other woman in Jim's life; they didn't kill her off, and they also didn't force a happy ending. I think they did a good job with the canon limitations they had, especially in 32 pages.

Do I believe that Laura could have been a good match for Jim in different circumstances?

As a temporary girlfriend? Yes.

As a lifelong partner? No.

Of course, I'm aware my answer is biased, but I can try to be a little more "logical" about it.

First of all, I think that the comic itself supports my interpretation: of course, like in every story, different people are going to see different things; however, as I already pointed out, Jim and Laura never say that they love each other, and before the marriage proposal their relationship is pretty casual.

In The Original Series, Jim isn't lucky when it comes to romance because the women he falls in love with can't really understand his nature as a space explorer. Sometimes they can, like in Carol's case, and that's why they break up with him. Laura is the opposite, because she's just like Jim. But here is the thing: I think Laura is too much like him.

What would have happened if Jim had accepted to marry her at the end of the five-year mission? They would have been both captains. On different ships, though. Sure, they could have been part of the same colonization fleet, as Jim says in the comic, and maybe it would have worked for a while. However, would they really have seen each other as much as Jim needs?

I don't know about Laura, but we see multiple times in canon that behind his mask as a starship captain, Jim is definitely more lonely than what someone may think.

First of all, don't get me wrong: in these screenshots from The Naked Time, Jim is single, so of course his attraction to Janice Rand is related to that. It's not the same situation he'd be in if he were married to Laura. Early in the series, he has thoughts about his yeoman exactly because he doesn't have anyone else. Contrary to his fame as a womanizer, TOS Jim in canon always has one woman at a time in his mind, never more.

So, why am I sharing those lines? To show that when Jim is always inside the Enterprise, he does feel lonely. He needs a romantic partner's physical touch. However, we also know that Jim does not want a relationship with one of his subordinates, so Janice Rand and the rest of his crew are off limits.

Laura is good for him because she's part of Starfleet, and not a subordinate. But is that really enough? From what I've seen in the comic, no. At the end of the day, it looks to me that Jim and Laura don't really know how to plan a future together. Perhaps it's because they're so similar, but they don't really think of themselves as a couple, especially Laura. There's Captain James T. Kirk and Captain Laura Rhone; they both love their ships, so they should get married? That's not how it works.

Their relationship is casual. Jim doesn't want to define it. Are they friends with benefits? Are they in an open relationship? Either way, when Laura decides to marry him, she asks around if Jim has someone else, and only after that she asks him. Jim, on the other hand, doesn't talk to her for six weeks after her proposal. He talks to Spock and Bones immediately, but not to her. He even talks to Carol first.

Then, when Jim finally tries to talk to her about his problems, she doesn't listen. Their lack of communication is the cause of their break up.

16 years later, what we see is even worse. It's obvious that Laura has just different priorities. Maybe it's because of what happened to her lost in space, but I'm not sure. If they had married at the end of the five-year mission, would have Laura always refused a promotion to admiral? Would she have tried to get a promotion with Jim? Based on what we see in this comic, it doesn't look likely to me.

Now, as I said, different people are going to see different things, so I'm sure that someone really invested in this romance can imagine that Jim and Laura are really meant to be, and they can get their happy ending after their retirement, or in other ways. However, I admit that Jim and Laura's huge communication issues make hard to me to picture a long happy relationship between them. They should both try to get better, but in those 32 pages there was no hint towards that direction.

There's another thing that makes really hard to find any love interest for Jim as a plausible "happily ever after" option: the stakes. I know that it's just a single comic, so the creators had to focus on a few things; however, I couldn't help but notice that Jim and Laura never really save each other from dangerous situations. They work together as a team, and Jim watches Laura disappearing into the void, but does he do anything about it? Does he try to reach her inside her ship before she disappears into the black hole? Does he try to bring her back from the void? No, he doesn't.

In TOS show and movies, Jim Kirk risks so much for his crew and his ship that a Star Trek fan can't believe that a new woman is the love of his life, unless Jim is willing to do for her everything he does for his friends. And honestly, after The Search for Spock… how can he even come close to do that?

And it's not just about Jim's actions. There's his language too. At the start of the third movie, Jim refers to Spock as "the noblest part of myself". What could he say about a love interest that is as deep as this?

Let's be honest here: the reason it's so hard to write a story about Jim Kirk's true love is that the real love story for him has already been written. You may not see it romantically, but Kirk and Spock's story is absolutely a love story. And when a character has someone he loves so deeply, it's not easy to convince the audience that he could have someone new to love as deeply. In Jim's case, the combination of his personality and his canon life makes it almost impossible.

Anyway, before I end up not so accidentally turning this analysis into a complete Kirk/Spock ship manifesto, I'm just going to mention one silly thing about the Valentine's Day comic. Please, don't take it too seriously, I'm half-joking :)

So, there are two kiss scenes in the story: one when Jim and Laura start to spend a lot of free time together, and one in the last panel. Well, I can't believe Jim isn't holding Laura's shoulders when he kisses her! That's just the basis of the way Jim kisses women! D:

Different Star Trek characters kiss in different ways; it fits their personalities. And because the rest of my TOS posts are probably too gay for these gifs, I'm dropping them as references here:

Sorry, but if Jim Kirk doesn't grab someone's shoulders before a kiss, it just kills my immersion! :P

Okay, a little more seriously: Jim doesn't always kiss women the same way; however, his "shoulder grab" is common enough that you definitely notice it if you pay attention. Because of that, I think it would have been nice to include it in the Valentine's Day comic.

After reading this comic, what kind of person would I consider perfect for Jim?

Well, my answer is obvious. However, I'll try to elaborate.

First of all, this story definitely convinced me even more that Jim can only be really happy with another Starfleet officer (or at least someone who's been deeply involved with Starfleet). He also needs someone who understands him as a space explorer, without trying to keep him grounded. And someone very smart, of course. These are all traits Laura has. But they're just the basis.

I don't think Jim needs someone in command of their own ship as a lifelong partner. As I said before, I can't really imagine it working out. Another starship captain would have their own goals and their own ambitions; that doesn't mean Jim shouldn't marry someone with specific plans for their own career, but I think these plans should keep the two of them close, not on different ships. Jim needs his partner physically at his side; if he could be happy in a long-distance relationship, I believe we would have seen at least one working out in canon. But it's never the case. Working on different starships from the same fleet would be a little better, but in my opinion not enough, unless it's for a short period of time.

And there's also the matter of his partner's personality. Jim is a natural leader; that's why he's so good at his job. I don't think he needs a similar kind of leader as romantic partner. This is just my personal opinion, but I believe they would just fight about everything they disagree about. I think he needs someone calmer in his life, not someone who'd encourage emotional outbursts.

More importantly, he absolutely needs someone he can communicate with. If he can't talk to his partner about everything important, they're not the right person for him. That doesn't mean they can't have disagreements or miscommunication issues, of course, but they shouldn't happen all the time, and Jim and his partner should be able to talk about them and make up.

In conclusion: someone at his side on his ship, smart, calm, trustworthy :)

Now, I know what some of you are thinking about: what about the "no relationships with subordinates" personal rule Jim has? How can Jim be in a relationship with Spock (or anyone else on the Enterprise) if he's everyone's superior officer? Well, first of all, I already said that after The Voyage Home, Jim and Spock are both captains. And before that… I think that Spock in the comic phrased it the right way. Jim can find his happiness with someone of "equal status". I think it's pretty clear, in my opinion, that Janice Rand and Spock aren't the same kind of subordinates to Jim. Just think about it: which members of the Enterprise call their captain "Jim"? Bones, Spock and (occasionally) Scotty. These are the three people I believe are "equals" in private to Jim, no matter their ranks when they're on duty. Because of that, a relationship between Jim and Spock could work pretty well.

By the way, another thing the Valentine's Day comic made me think about is that in TOS movies, Jim sort of does with Spock pretty much everything he does with Laura in this story. Not the same way, of course, but does it matter? Spock is his own person, he's not Jim's copy. That doesn't mean he can't indulge Jim, have fun himself… and try to stop Jim from doing dangerous things "for fun", as an old spouse would :)

Okay, perhaps throwing each other into the water doesn't count as dancing, but it's so much better :D

In conclusion, this is the way I can read the Valentine's Day comic as a Kirk/Spock shipper:

Jim mentions Spock on his first date with a woman.

Jim questions his life choices as he thinks about Spock and IDIC philosophy.

Jim does with Laura everything we see him doing in TOS show, except for playing chess (just the thing he does with Spock).

Jim says Laura and him are a good team in Starfleet because they had a lot of sex (is that true about other people he works well with??)

There haven't been many ladies or gentlemen in Jim's life because he's busy (not because he's not into men, apparently).

"Starfleet is getting a lot better at partners of equal rank working together." Good for your future with Spock, Jim!

If Jim and Laura got married, they could both teach at Starfleet Academy, something Jim is totally going to do with Spock someday.

Mister "I am something of an expert on the subject of James T. Kirk" Spock.

Also, Mister "I believe someone of equal status would offer you the best possible chance of happiness" Spock, which is actual foreshadowing of his own future status with Jim.

Hey, look at Jim reading a book that reminds him of his lost love! I wonder where I've seen LITERALLY THE SAME PICTURE???

"Don't 'Admiral' me". This is totally not similar to what Jim tells Spock in The Voyage Home, of course.

Hey, we're both captains now! Just for a few days, but isn't that great? I wonder if anyone else is a captain now, and forever? :D

"I have been and always shall be your Valentine". Totally not a Kirk/Spock line, I don't know what you're talking about! :)

Okay, okay, that's all.

As a Kirk/Spock shipper, I won't deny that I'm a little jealous of this Valentine's Day special comic, because I wish we could get something with amazing art like this where Jim is in love with Spock. On the other hand, Star Trek: Year Five comic series has a few scenes about Jim & Spock's friendship that I really liked. Platonic, sure, but good enough for my K/S goggles!

Thank you so much for reading this post until the end! I hope you enjoyed my analysis! Live long and prosper!

#star trek analysis #star trek: year five #star trek: year five valentine's day special #star trek comics #james t. kirk #laura rhone #spirk #star trek tos #star trek the original series #k/s #kirk x spock #space husbands #my gifs

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tartsinarat · 5 months

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Ngl was thinking about this whilst drawing some toh au stuff while watching doctor who in the background but I really feel like Pip would really be into the toh version of doctor who.

no idea what it would be called tho in the owl house but Pip’s into it for obvious reasons of sci-fi but also occasionally randomly fantasy?? show, which has chaotic mess of lore that makes no sense whatsoever (I say this with extreme love tho) and has a main character who’s a mad genius and criminal who stole a time machine and ran away to explore the universe and time which I feel meshes very well into what Pip would enjoy

Like I don’t see him enjoying space frontier as it’s pretty much Star Trek and that show has an really optimistic grand view of the future, it focus mostly on the good of people as a whole and that anything can be achieved if people work together and put their minds to it, I can see why Hunter and Gus would enjoy it which I find really sweet and adorable

On the other hand Doctor who has a very complex but pessimistic view on people/the universe, it mainly focuses on the crazy situations that a lonely alien on who’s constantly running away but desperately trying their best at all times to either atone for what they did in the past or to help people across time and space which I think Pip would find more interesting and relatable.

He’d also probably think that all the historical stuff in doctor who is real and that Britain is just constantly getting invaded by aliens.

Funniest thing though about him discovering Doctor who is Pip finally learning what a British person is, and that he’s got a British accent himself as I’m pretty sure there’s literally no one on the boiling isles other than Belos and Pip have that accent so he wondered where it’s from.

Pip also enjoys this show even more because time travel is a concept in toh, soooooooo the guy is just itching to figure out how to make a real Tardis, the only thing stoping him is that he’s in the human realm and in the demon realm the titan themselves was like “nope not even risking it” and decided to never allow him to be able to find a time pool again (he was apart of the events of elsewhere and elsewhen along side Luz and Lilith… it was awkward between him and Philip to say the least but it was more on Pips part because he was like” holy shit is he an older me?? Or my great great- something?? grandad what is going on???” So he didn’t know how to react to that and neither did Luz who was like yep they’re related, and Philip was like “what a strange hooded kid, I didn’t know that demons could mimic accents and appearances so well, I should be stay wary of that abomination and slay it when I have the time”. Oh yeah Pip does almost get killed but Lilith springs into action and does the badass punch to stop Philip. Ngl I’ll have to draw this as a comic at some point because it’s interesting to imagine/draw)

As well I had some ideas of him in thanks to them dressed up in a nerdy doctor cosplay which I found fun but idk if that’ll end up being what I draw him as for his Halloween costume, all three were picked because they all had similar Pip personality wise and I feel like he would relate most to these three in particular;

Like Pip, 10 is pretty much a wild card personality wise depending on the situation he can either be a sad destructive arrogant bastard with a slight god complex who takes matters into his own hands because he believes that he’ll make the right decision without thinking about the consequences or be a lonely silly guy who rambles a lot and is always running around and just wants to have fun.

1 is a grumpy trickster that has strong opinions about right and wrong, he also appears rude or uncaring but actually cares a lot and is the guy who ran away and stole a fucking time machine. He and 14 (14 is basically a mature 10 but I was tempted to go with him instead of 10 but he doesn’t have the ego problem so 10 it was lmao) fought a god like being that’s from another dimension thats obsessed with playing games.

4 is a bit of an odd ball though, he’s the weirdest doctor out of the bunch. He’s pretty silly, but at times he’s shifts into being quite callous and broody but still has a heart of gold. As well as 4 seems to struggle a lot in acting human as he’s pretty distant, aloof and alien at points, he even emphasises a lot throughout his run how he’s not human. Which I feel Pip would find extremely relatable as well as enjoying 4’s adventurist spirit and his extreme hatred of authority.

I think 4 is Pips favourite so he’d most likely cosplay as him during thanks to them.

Omg almost completely forgot to mention but I didn’t add his scar on purpose, he’s used illusion magic to remove it to make the cosplay more accurate and because his curse at that point is showing more physically on his body at this point in season 3 (he goopy 😔) and I can imagine it’s hard to explain to people in public why you a rotting infected looking green scar across your face and an even worse looking arm that’s weirdly proportioned to your body.

#the owl house #toh #original character #toh au #art #golden heir au #the owl house au #oc #owl house au #oc stuff #i got too silly #no idea if I should tag this as being doctor who related #it’s kinda embarrassing but ig cringe is dead #sorry to my followers who aren’t into doctor who #and also aren’t insane about dw #philip wittebane

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justjasper · 9 months

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do you have any domestic moreid headcanons?

Pre-Relationship

They become fast friends, they hang out a lot, they call each other at odd hours.

Reid gets Morgan into Star Trek by making him watch Deep Space Nine. Morgan would fight god for Captain Sisko.

They fall into bed sometime in season 1, and keep doing so on and off for years while their feelings brew.

Reid wakes up alive after the events of Amplification with Morgan by his bedside, and they have a conversation full off feelings. They become "official" here.

Newly Established

They can both cook; Reid looked after his mother and went to college young, Morgan's dad cooked, and Morgan followed his example.

Nobody proposes moving in together officially, Reid just spends less and less time at his apartment until the lease runs out. He mentions it to Morgan quite matter of factly, and Morgan shrugs, smiles, pulls his pretty boy in for a kiss. "Most of your books are here already."

A morning where they don't have to work goes like this: Morgan gets up early to go for a run with Clooney. By the time he's back, Reid is making is making them breakfast. They eat, and then shower together.

Morgan has a decent vinyl collection and likes to listen to them on chill evenings. Reid is a musical sponge, and if he gets a chance when they're on cases, will seek out record shops for something interesting or rare.

Their favourite takeout is Thai. Reid is one of those "white guy with spice tolerance" outliers.

Well Established

It takes some time for them to switch to using first names in private, Morgan takes significantly longer. It's not a problem, they've known and loved each other a long time with these names. Neither of them shorten each other's names.

Clooney is a K9 dropout, and highly trainable, and Reid teaches him a lot of silly tricks. He likes to show Clooney magic tricks.

One of the properties Morgan buys has a decrepid grand piano in it. He gets it restored for Reid, who's dabble with learning on and off. He plays the piano every day.

Morgan thinks Reid doesn't really believe in marriage as an institution, and is okay with that, they don't have to get married, even if they could. Reid proposes to Morgan one morning in shower.

Reid never gets an official autism dignosis, wanting the plausible deniability while working for the goverment. They talk about it. Morgan starts packing a weighted blanket in his go-bag for him (people often ask why his go back is so heavy).

The Future

They get married once it's legal, a simple ceremony but all their important people are there.

When they leave the BAU it's a joint decision. They're both ready for a new adventure, with less actual threat of bodily harm.

Morgan goes into property full time, flipping houses and rent-to-buying them to local people/families, instead of selling them to landlord who will end up pushing locals out of the area.

Reid goes into research/lecturing.

They move to Chicago to be closer to family. They move Diana to be close them them too.

As Reid gets older, he has to use a cane more. His migranes are mostly under control, but eventually he experiences migralepsy (migraine seizures). The dog they get after Clooney passes becomes Reid's service dog.

The Future (with kid)

Reid carries (he's trans). It's an unplanned pregnancy, but they go for it. Reid is terrible at being pregnant.

They have a daughter they name Sam after Morgan's dad (bc I chose this fanon name years before CM bothered to give Morgan's dad a canon name and I am sticking with it out of spite).

Morgan's sisters teach Reid to do Sam's hair.

Morgan is very involved when sam becomes a Girl Scout, and coaches her softball team.

Reid teaches her piano. They read together every day.

They struggle not to intefer when she's a teen and it becomes apparent the girl she keeps bringing home is her first crush.

They both try so hard to be present, devoted dads that they can can fall into helicopter parent tendencies.

#moreid #headcanon #derek morgan #spencer reid #my fic #not really but

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startrekprodigyfan · 3 months

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Okay yeah… I binged the whole season in one day.

It was actually surprisingly easy to do so. And while that means my planned slower recaps and speculation are basically out the window, I also now just don’t have to worry about spoilers for weeks on end.

I’m still going to keep spoilers under a cut though. Even if you block key hashtags, stuff can get through, and just making the spoilers further down a text post you have to scroll past to continue browsing tumblr doesn’t help either. Hide that content behind a cut, please!

Non-spoiler thoughts:

It was so good. It was honestly more Trek than I could’ve possibly expected. And to all those early naysayers who were confused by the Protostar and where it was supposed to be in the timeline after the first episode of season 1, all of that gets answered and put into context by the end of season 2. Thank GOD! Every single plot point people brought up and thought was a “plot hole” gets filled and explained.

It’s not as emotional as the first season, but the situations and events definitely still have a lot of weight and the stakes are so high for so long too! There’s a surprising number of dark events that happen throughout the series. Way darker than even I’m used to watching the animated shows that I do. Kudos for not skimping on the peril and stakes of the mission for the sake of kids being traumatized lol

And while there is the potential for more, if we never get a season 3 this would still be an extremely satisfying ending all the same. I am very happy there aren’t any loose ends here.

Prodigy is without a doubt the most reliably consistent Star Trek show that’s ever existed. Not a single episode feels like filler. Not a single episode wastes time or characters. Even the goofy episodes have character development and callbacks later, and I genuinely don’t think there’s a single episode that I would skip or not watch again. That’s an amazing feat in and of itself, but as a Trek fan that’s just unheard of! Kudos all around!

Now for my longer spoiler thoughts under the cut:

Okay…

How the HELL did you guys make Wesley Crusher’s time traveling arc sooo good? As a TNG fan I was always annoyed with the “traveler” storylines and with Wesley’s character in general. Even as a kid I never really liked him. But this storyline makes him interesting and gives a lot of weight to his powers. He’s almost like The Doctor from Doctor Who, someone who has so much going on in his head that he’s sort of lost it.

That honestly was the biggest surprise to me. I was convinced that Hologram Janeway (and the construct) were somehow manipulating time and events because of the wormhole. Janeway would be trying to help them, while the construct was trying to stop them. That was my working theory for the start of the series. Imagine my surprise when it turns out it’s Wesley Crusher! wtf!?

I do like that he gets to reunite with his mom finally. And that he learns he has a brother.

Incidentally that’s something else I was not expecting. How MUCH of this series was going to be timeline connected to the events of Picard and Lower Decks respectively. Like, wow… they connected the Mars Shipyard explosion and the Romulan evacuation plot points that made sense for the story. Like holy crap, then FINALLY getting into Starfleet only for the shipyards to explode and Starfleet is severely crippled. I did not expect that to happen, and it’s sadly realistic too.

I still hate the Romulan evacuation storyline from Picard, but as a matter of keeping things consistent it makes sense for it here. And while I don’t like it being a canon event, it’s overall good for the consistency of “prime” trek.

I do like that Dal became a second in command. I’ve always felt like Dal was never really destined to be the captain and that he’s always been better at helping others be their best selves. So it makes sense for his character arc that he learns he doesn’t need to be in charge to make a difference and that there’s no shame in being second.

Overall I am still reeling from how much Trek happened in this season. There’s never a dull moment. Unfortunately I am not optimistic about a 3rd season. Netflix picking up a mostly completed series to broadcast on their streaming service is far FAR cheaper than paying for an entire season to be created outright. And sadly, as much as I want more Prodigy, I have a feeling it’s just not on people’s radars enough for it to do gangbuster numbers enough to convince Netflix to pick them up for a 3rd season. I hope I am proven wrong, but I will not get my desire for more season unrealistically hyped up.

I do want to rewatch the entire show now, because there were clues left in the first season that only get answered at the end of season 2. And I love closed loop time travel storylines like that! I can’t wait to go back and connect the dots knowing what I know now.

An excellent series. Probably one of Trek’s best in decades. A true love for the material and the characters and the legacy of Trek lore all rolled into an amazingly animated package.

#star trek prodigy #star trek #prodigy #prodigy spoilers #gwyn #janeway #star trek: prodigy #rok tahk #jankom pog #zero #gwyn and dal #dal r’el #dal r'el

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spawksstuff · 3 months

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The John Davidson Show aired June 8 1982 - De's Parts

Long transcript below. The whole interview is on YouTube. It's very funny.

John: DeForest Kelley has appeared in classic motion pictures like- think back- “Gunfight at OK Corral,” “Raintree County” plus numerous television appearances among others, “Gunsmoke,” “Bonanza.” Generally a bad guy, a villain, however his most popular success has been the outspoken, somewhat cynical but thoroughly likeable Doctor Leonard “Bones” McCoy. Find out what the “Bones” stands for when we meet him. His name is DeForest Kelley. Welcome!

John: What does “Bones” stand for?

De: First, I wore these glasses because I want to see something. You really are a good-looking devil. Handsome, isn’t he?

Bibi: He sure is.

John: What does “Bones” stand for, just going right on? What does-

De: Bones. Bones is an old, old country expression for “doctor”. They used to call them “sawbones”

John: Oh yeah.

William: We were going to call him “saw.”

John: That’s too obvious for outer space.

De: Obviously the captain would pick up on that and call me “Bones”

John: I see. Did you make that up on the set or that’s-no?

William: I don’t remember how I got that.

De: I don’t either.

John: It was written in there?

De: I think maybe Bill threw that in. I don’t know.

John: You’re always arguing with Mr. Spock on the show. You’re always saying things like “I’m a doctor, I’m not a..”

De: I dislike him terribly, that’s the reason. We don’t agree on many things. Of course it’s a very simple explanation for it. Spock has no emotions, McCoy does so we- Bill ends up being the referee between us. So that’s the way that developed.

John: Might Spock change? Is it true that Spock-

Leonard: Spock change? To please him?

John: Isn’t it true that Spock actually writes poetry or something, what did you tell me? Or is about to write poetry and become emotional and romantic? No? Where did I read that?

Leonard: Sounds like a great idea. I don’t know where you read that.

John: No? Alright, so he’s going to be that same guy. Is there a love-thinking back to the original series, series, Spock never had a love interest right, except that one time in seven, seven years? But there were no romantic interests?

Leonard: No as a matter of fact there was one episode that was a love story for Spock. It was with Jill Ireland.

John: Really?

Leonard: And it was pretty tough playing the scenes because she’s a very attractive and interesting lady who happens to be married to Charlie Bronson.

John: Really?

Leonard: Who was on the set all the time.

William: Carrying a large stick.

John: But Bones had a love interest, just one.

De: One, just one. So I-

John: Why not more?

De: If you think that he was in heat, what once in seven years think about my situation. One time. I don’t know, the captain was the stud on the show and uh…

John. Heyyy!

William: If you can’t win at “Battle of the Network Stars” you might as well have a lot of things going on.

John: Be an outer space stud.

De: He got all the action but he had to leave them on the planet, that was the thing.

John: Well, maybe that’s ok.

William: Planet hopping.

John: Well, bye I have to go now. Lotta guys would love an excuse “my ship is waiting” you know. I have heard about Star Trek conventions. I’ve never been to one. Tell me what that is.

De: Well it’s really no more than a gathering of several thousand fans who come to see us on these occasions and they-

John: How did these get started?

De: I don’t know. Someone had-intended to have a very small gathering of about 200 fans in New York at one time and I think around a thousand showed up. So they decided to do it again and I think the next time 5000 showed up and then it began to grow you know.

John: Once a year?

De: Well, no. There are any number of them going on

John: Oh all over the country?

De: Yeah.

John: And they stay for three or four days is that-?

De: Yeah about three days

John: Bibi have you ever been to one of these?

Bibi: No I haven’t. But I’ve heard so much about them, I’d love to go on one of those

(unintelligible)

De: There’s a huge one that’s gonna take place in Houston in June and when I talked to the fellow last I think he had something like twenty-thousand advance for it already

John: Where in Houston because this show will air in June right after the movies- by the way Star Trek II premieres June the 4th at a theater near you around the county. Yes?

De: It’s going to be held at the Summit I believe is the name of the place.

John: At the Summit in Houston.

De: In Houston.

John: Now what do you do at these? Bill what do you do at these conventions?

De: We dance and sing and play musical instruments and that sort of thing.

Bibi: You don’t-?

De: No we don’t.

John: Well you guys-

De: Bill will tell you.

John: Bill?

William: Well I’ve gone to about a half a dozen over the years and we sit and talk to the audience just about-like this. Much more interesting than this I think.

John: Do they know more about the series than you do? Is it trivia time?

William: Well I don’t’ remember the series at all. I’m too busy concentrating on what the next question is here and the plots go out of mind. I don’t remember I- truly have no- vague recollection of memories

De: They know the dialogue verbatim on some of them.

John: It’s something we’re going to talk about when we come back. First of all you’ll meet Nichelle Nichols and James Doohan, but the series was a long time ago and these guys really don’t remember that much about working on the series whereas we see it in reruns

Leonard: Wait a minute. That’s what Bill said.

John: Oh Bill said that?

Leonard: He doesn’t speak for the rest of us, I remember everything.

John: Well let’s see after this break if Leonard really does remember.

<Later>

John: You guys look exactly like the way you did on the series, nobody changes here.

De: Thank you.

John: But you also, a sword fight I was told that you changed the sword that was used and therefore broadened the character.

George: Well you know it was suggested

Bill: It was a broad sword.

George: We made the sword

(unintelligible)

John: You used a fencing sword instead of a samurai?

George: Samurai sword.

John: What did that mean to you? How did that change Sulu?

George: Well you know we’re in the 23rd Century and by that time there would be a lot of intercultural feeding, certainly, you know the fact that Sulu talks the way he does while looking the way he does is a personification of that and there’s no reason why an Asian looking person should not be interested in fencing. I - you know as an Asian American actor-

Bill: Did you say ��aging” or “Asian’?

George: Asian and aging both. I said maturing but.

John: If George brought that change to his character haven’t you all contributed-Leonard did the ears

Bill: He’s an older, of Japanese persuasion

Nichelle: Have you ever heard a laugh like Georges? Ah-ah-ah-ah

George: Oh-this is-it’s all downhill now.

John: DeForest?

De: On the episode that he used that sword he almost changed a few genders.

#deforest kelley #interview #star trek ii: the wrath of khan #de joking about conventions #and leonard giggling like crazy over it

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