#traumagenic is the only genic system

[thelonelyelysium]

For our Instagram where we are most active, follow the.space.council

[sophieinwonderland]

Found a Hate Blog in The #Plural Tag. 😮‍💨

As I covered recently, "Plural" is an inclusive word with origins in endogenic and non-disordered systems.

If any anti-endo posts in the "#plural" tag or other inclusive tags, don't expect your DNIs to be respected.

They also are doing this knowingly. People have already tried to contact them about using the inclusive plural tag and the hate blog has stubbornly refused.

So if they're going to post in inclusive tags, I figured I might as well respond to some of their vent posts in anti-endo tags. As always, if anti-endos have a problem with this or feel boundaries are being unfairly crossed, please take it up with the hate blog I'm responding to that's invading our spaces.

Also, really weird how they just jump straight into saying "pro-endos" aren't systems either. Hate to break it to you, but there are a lot of traumagenic DID systems whose disorders and trauma are just valid as yours. And they manage to not be bigots too!

Wait... are they claiming that ALL dissociation can only be caused by trauma?

Although previous research has implicated a history of childhood trauma in the development of dissociative tendencies, insufficient cognizance (in this context) has been taken of the distinction between pathological and nonpathological dissociation. In this study, the relationship between childhood trauma and both pathological and nonpathological dissociation was investigated in a sample of 100 Australian adults. Pathological dissociation was positively predicted by dimensions of childhood trauma, but no such relationship was found for nonpathological dissociation (psychological absorption). The data are consistent with the traumagenic model of the dissociative disorders, but factors other than childhood trauma may also be pertinent.

Amazing how they compare us with anti-vaxxers while trying to claim all dissociation is traumagenic. This wasn't even hard to find. 🙄

"I don't care about any morals"

Well, at least you're up front about it.

Also, I tend to check the DID tags every now and then and you know what I don't see there? Endogenic systems!

"#Endo Safe" tags are more often than not used by pro-endo traumagenic systems.

Guess what! If you have DID, you get to post in the DID tags. Being a hateful bigot isn't a requirement! Anyone with DID has the right to post in the DID tags, and can tag their post as endo safe too!

Maybe you wouldn't get as many anons from endogenic systems if you stop posting in inclusive tags. Just a thought!

How are they harmful to the community again?

Weren't you just saying earlier that pro-endos were stealing resources? Now you're acknowledging that they're making resources for the community, but this is also bad?

LOL!

Genic labels literally only exist because of the pro-endo community. And the anti-endo community notoriously hates xeno-origins like NPD-genic. Yes, people will assume you're endo-safe when you use xeno-origins because these terms, like most resources in the plural community, were made by pro-endos.

Keep it up guys! It's working! We're spreading!

Sorry, I don't feel like rebutting anything here. I just appreciate seeing that our efforts are paying off!

The Future is Plural! 😁

Stop!

This talking point has been completely debunked.

System hopping was used by pro-endos 15 years before the earliest association with RAMCOA. The idea that it was a RAMCOA term is a total lie invented by anti-endos!

OSDD-1A and OSDD-1B are not actually official disorders. There is an OSDD. The first example, called OSDD-1 sometimes, gives two possible presentations. One with less distinct alters and amnesia, and another with no amnesia. But these aren't called OSDD-1a or OSDD-1b.

If your goal is education, this nuance is important.

Could it be because ASPEC people have dealt with a ton of exclusionism from some queer communities, and are more accepting of other people as a result? And perhaps they also recognize similarities between system exclusionists and queer exclusionists?

You're coming and posting in our tags!

That's why people keep interacting with you! "Plural" is a term coined by non-disordered systems, you've been told this, and you insist on posting in inclusive tags anyway!

You don't get to bust in someone's door, complain about them in their home, and then tell them not to interact with you! It doesn't work like that!

Funny how these are the only sources they can provide. And they exclusively deal with DID without even touching on other forms of plurality.

Anyway...

The ICD-11 says you can experience "multiple distinct personality states" without a dissociative disorder.

The creators of the theory of structural dissociation have said hypnosis and mediumship may involve self-conscious dissociative parts of the personality.

And Transgender Mental Health, written by Eric Yarbrough and published by the American Psychiatric Association (who publishes the DSM) says you can be plural without trauma or a disorder.

Sources repeatedly affirm that it's possible to be plural without trauma!

Anyone who claims it's impossible to be plural without trauma is either ignorant or lying.

And if you're going to keep spreading hate and misinformation, at least keep it out of inclusive tags!

[rayssyscourse]

endogenic doesnt mean that someone is not disordered from having a system, it just means that their system didnt form from trauma. in the same vein, traumagenic doesnt mean that a system is disordered, only that their system formed from trauma. endogenic systems can be diagnosed with osdd and did.

im tired of seeing posts about a disorder i have that people dont want me to interact with because of the -genic label i choose to use. the -genic label i chose to use, mind you, because people wouldnt stop taking posts i made about being disordered and adding anti endo tags to them.

honestly i think -genic labels are silly anyways. they tell you zero information about a system past how they formed, which in the grand scheme of things is much less important than how that system might be functioning now.

I think I get where you're coming from. My main question is, how would an endo system get diagnosed with did/osdd? cuz the definitions of those is having a system formed from trauma, so how could you have one of them and still be endogenic? (genuine question, I'm not trying to attack you, just confused)

anyways, I think you have a good point that -genic labels are too broad and don't tell you very much about the system itself. however, I do still think it's fair for people to want traumagenic only or endo only spaces. the -genic labels have a lot of issues, yes, but they do hold *some* meaning.

[thelunastusco]

[grabs a megaphone]

-GENIC TERMINOLOGY IS NOT DID/OSDD ONLY.

Are there maybe some sysmeds out there who came up with -genic terms that they told non-traumagenic systems they can't use? Probably!

But the original crop of -genic terms, as relating to system origins, are NOT only for folks with DID/OSDD. We created them to be used by anyone who is a system. Period. Including non-traumagenic systems, and trauma-formed systems who aren't disordered.

[luminae-system]

(Danny, as almost always, speaking)

Venty ramble-ish post of the day under the cut as promised in the update (ended up a long post, sorry)

If anyone wants a quick summary, there is a tldr bolded and green at the bottom! Would love some advice if anyone is nice enough to share their experiences and stuff.

Tw: General negative thinking, obsessive/repetitive thinking, ocd-like tendencies, lots of self-doubt, system doubt/self denial, brief neglect(? Descriptions, brief abuse mention (tell us if we missed something else)

I've been thinking of System Origins (xyz-genic) lately. Something about messy thoughts and obsessive patterns and stuff, our psychiatrist calls it "cow chewing" or something like that (since January, our memory has been shit, sorry).

So. I'm afraid to label us as traumagenic because like, as I mentioned in the notes of a reblog this week, we never went through traditional abuse, we had food and education and shelter and all that good stuff.

Maybe mom was down in the dumps herself, and dad was always away on a buissness trip, not to mention mom having to deal with three kids at the same time... so we never really got enough love and attention. We were loved ofc, and I am grateful for all mom did for us.

But like... her best wasn't enough in many ways, that's why we're in therapy since like 11 and always go off the deep end whenever we try to go long periods without a session (monthly sessions seems to be the stretch/limit). And well, we have more diagnoses than fingers in one hand already, wonderful! So funny! Amazing! /sarcasm

So, anyways, back to the topic. We never really lacked anything, were never abused, and the emotional neglect wasn't thaaat bad and totally not on propose. So... was it enough to form a traumagenic CDD system? Are we really disordered?

I do have emotional amnesia in the rare times we've managed to get someone else to be the main fronter, and we do have some ptsd symptoms but like... we do have a separate ptsd diagnosis bc of my ex-bf (another story/post, bad bad guy) and the childhood ptsd-like symptoms are nowhere in the same level as when we first got the diagnosis of the other ptsd.

And looking at posible diagnosis, Partial DID (pdid) is so so so close to what we experience! That's like, us! Main frontstuck host with other headmates acting as 'advisors' and less fronting and more passive influence and co-conciousness (even if we are monoconcious, it's a bit weird, don't wanna think too hard about it)

But like... I didn't start having "multiple people in my head" until like I was 14. Or atleast being conscious of it I guess. That's way past the age threshold for identity consolidation and thus traumagenic system formation...

So are we "disordered enough" to qualify as a disordered/CDD system? Would we make a mockery of "real" disordered systems to self-diagnose that?

I've been thinking of sharing with our current psychologist. The last one dismissed my concerns and said I was being a hypochondriac (god, it's always that excuse! Even with our physical health, which, yes, another post/story).

I'm scared of being wrong. What if I really am just talking to myself and making a sorta tulpamancy thing on accident? Ofc nothing wrong with that, but it would change our system dynamics a lot.

On the flipside, if we really are a traumagenic system... now what? I doubt there are any specialized psychologists for systems in our town... so yeah. Not sure what we would do after a hypothetical informal/formal diagnosis by our psychologist and/or psychiatrist.

Gosh. This is... a lot. And I tried to be brief. Sorry, and if anyone did read it all, thank you so much for caring about us! (Or being curious I guess lol). I'd love some advice

So, tldr: No abuse, only some emotional neglect on accident. Is it trauma enough for traumagenic? We disordered enough for a diagnosis? What if yes? What if not?

-----------------------

Bonus info for anyone(s) who want to give us advice (thank you!!!!)

System of 3

One front-stuck host and two "advisors"

Daena is a sorta reformed persecutor and sorta trauma holder?

Aelius is our protector (he is taking a long nap/trip somewhere in the brain, miss him)

Danny (me) and Daena are two sides of the same coin, share a lot of traits and stuff even if personality is different, basically like a median system.

Aelius is fully separate from us gals

Dissociation has been very common since we were a very young kid, especially derealization, though depersonalization did happen a lot too. Therapy has helped a lot in terms of grounding

Not much in terms of Amnesia I think? Like, maybe I'm not aware of something, but we do remember our childhood well enough to tell anecdotes and funny stories

We do have emotional amnesia tho, mostly with taking care of the body and household chores (remembering something but like, I did not do that. The memory spawned by itself???)

Uhhh ask for more details if needed!!!

[monachopsis111]

Monachopsis Collective

-----------------------------------

Welcome to our blog!

Our name is Evie/Eve and we are a traumagenic system who is 17. Our pronouns are it/they/she collectively.

-----------------------------------

Main Posters:

13 | It/They | #13 reasons

Monarch | She/Her | #Monarchy

More to be added....

-----------------------------------

DNI:

any -genic but traumagenic, pro-shippers, radqueers, people looking only for syscourse, fakeclaimers (seriously, find something better to do than hate on a mentally ill individual...), lgbtqphobes, anti mogai

-----------------------------------

Other Blogs:

@thatsysfeelwhen - System Ask Blog

@l1ttl3-st4rs - SFW Little Blog

@l0v3-l3tt3rs-111 - Playlist Reqs

-----------------------------------

Other:

Pronouns.cc; Click Here!

Rentry; Click Here!

Carrd Comms; Click Here!

Discord; Click Here!

Ask Game; Click Here!

[system-comforts]

If you're comfortable doing so, could you explain the different origins of plurality a little? We were under the impression that to be disordered we had to be trauma based and then similarly that if we didn't have significant childhood trauma we had to be endo and then someone told us that's not how it works and we're very confused by terms that everyone seems to just understand. Sorry

It's alright! There are a lot of terms in the community. It can be intimidating when you first see them. We'll explain a bit about the specifics of your question. We won't list every possible origin (as there are many new terms even we aren't entirely familiar with), but we will give the basics we know. Italicized parts are highlighted points. And of course, this is largely based on our experiences: in the community, talking with professionals, etc. We encourage you to talk to systems of all types to get a better idea about more specific labels.

Disordered plurality does not always equal trauma based plurality. When people used the word disordered, they mean, "does this cause distress in my life?" For some, plurality itself causes distress. Frequent switches, internal fights, etc can cause distress. For other systems, other symptoms associated with their plurality cause distress. Maybe they have a depressed headmate, or they have amnesia between switches, or maybe headmates remember trauma and have symptoms from it. Disordered systems experience negative aspects of plurality, and in many cases want to make changes to fix them. A non disordered system would experience few negative aspects, or might feel they experience a lot of positive things from their plurality. Those positives might outweigh the bad. Maybe they feel much less lonely, or their system communicates well, maybe they've processed trauma and feel better equip to handle bad memories and tough situations.

Whether a system calls themselves disordered or not disordered is up to them. Only they can judge whether their plurality and other symptoms are interfering in their daily life. In their school, home, work life, etc.

It is difficult to judge how severe someone's trauma is. Traumas vary from singular ones to multiple, daily traumas to single event ones, traumas that occurred in childhood, teen years, adulthood-- and this still doesn't mention the different types of trauma, from physical traumas to war and community violence, to sexual trauma or medical.

Importantly, no stranger on the internet can tell you if your trauma was/wasn't severe enough to cause any sort of disorder, much less something like DID, OSDD, or disordered plurality. They don't know what it was like to experience that trauma as you, and they don't know what's been going on in your mind. Some people may tell you your trauma wasn't "severe" enough, that you must be endogenic if you don't have enough or don't remember any trauma. Those people are invalidating, and the problem lies with them, not you. If you'd like to explore your past and potential trauma history, speak to a professional about it. Find a trauma and/or dissociative disorders specialist (depending on if you seek to pursue DID/OSDD diagnosis or treatment).

As a final summary, the label traumagenic means a system created through trauma. A traumagenic system might be diagnosed with DID, OSDD, or a similar diagnosis, but this isn't always the case. Although traumagenic systems might be disordered, others may be non disordered, especially after working through and processing trauma.

An endogenic system is a system not caused by trauma. As such, this label can be fairly broad. Although an endogenic system might not be caused by trauma, the system may still be disordered. Members might not get along, and further negative symptoms might come up. -genic labels describe how a system formed, whereas a disordered label describes how a system's plurality affects them in positive or negative ways.

Deciding what label, if any, best suites you is up to you op. You know your situation better than anyone else, and it's important the label you choose feels helpful to you. Be it for finding community, making sense of your plurality, or having helpful vocabulary. We wish you the best as you explore the plural community more. Know we're always on your side no matter what your label!

-mod venus

[sysmedsaresexist]

i think endogenics deserve their own -genic term that's not just clarifying that they're different than traumagenics tho. ill use non-traumagenic for a catchall for non-traumagenic systems but as a self descriptor it's like saying non-trans. like theres the word cis for a reason. ofc people CAN use nontraumagenic but i find it very.... strange. idk.

also spontaneous and created do work for endogenics, but doesn't cover ONLY endogenics (example: traumagenics who create system members especially for trauma-reasons, or experience members forming in a seemingly 'spontaneous' way, or yk. just mixed origin systems), so it's not a 1 to 1 replacement for the term (this is coming from a trauma-formed system who has created and spontaneous-seeming members, so saying those would count me, someone who's not (in a literal sense) endogenic, as the same as endogenics, when it's different.)

btw what would you think of someone using the term exogenic? since you don't like endogenic, i was wondering if you would think that it's direct technical opposite is bad as well, or if it's JUST endogenic for some reason.

Okay, we kind of have to work from the bottom up, here

So, first, where endogenic means internal and fantasy, exogenic means outside influence... Like trauma. Freud used endogenic for fantasy and exogenic for trauma. This is kind of a moot point. That would be worse? Still our term.

Second, CDD systems that create "endogenic" headmates, are still just... CDD systems. Mixed origin isn't a thing, and I don't believe you should try to put "origins" on individual alters. Alters can take years to make first contact with anyone, internally or externally. By that point, pinpointing what event created them, and more importantly, why they're there is nearly impossible. It's totally normal for CDD systems to have alters that are, or appear to be, purposefully created. I have some. There's so many reasons this could happen, but if there's a need, the brain will provide, consciously or subconsciously. Alters like this don't make you mixed origin.

It makes you a normal ass system.

It's about why the system formed in the first place, and for CDDs, that's trauma. Once the ability to create alters is there, you can and will continue to do so until problems with dissociation are under control.

There's zero rush to figure out the reason, too. It'll come with time when everyone is ready and as healing progresses. Being adamant that their origin must be this clearly "endogenic" cause has the potential of keeping them from processing other possible reasons. Just let them figure it out. We've all been there at some point. It took nearly three years to figure out where one of our members came from, and I feel like it would have taken longer if I hadn't known it was probably related to trauma somehow. Over time, reactions to certain things just sort of... Lead us to make the connection, and then we could start on offering proper support and reassurance when those reactions occurred.

It should come as no surprise, it was indeed related to trauma.

So, if it's a completely normal thing, why not just say you're a CDD system? Why does mixed origin need to be specified? What makes you different from other systems? From me?

Let me finish all that with, I can understand that these terms are helpful to some people, and I support them. I support the use of any language that helps people understand themselves better. My experiences won't be everyone's. Things that worked for me won't work for everyone.

However, I don't support using these words in ways that further blur the line between endogenic and CDD.

This means I have a very love-hate relationship with a lot of terms in use right now-- like mixed origin, because in its current use, it implies that experience is different and spreads the idea that this doesn't happen in CDDs, when in reality, it's incredibly common.

I'm not sure I understand the first half of this ask. Are you asking what I think they could call themselves instead? It was never about stopping people from using the word and more about pointing out that no one seems to give a shit about DID history. That it's ignored and swept under the rug without apology-- while telling us we're wrong and overreacting. That despite direct proof showing that things happened and were said, certain endos still have that information up and active, still circling through the community and further spreading misinformation.

Willfully.

Purposefully.

Intentionally.

I don't really care what endogenics do, at this point I just want them to stop conflating our experiences and talking over us.

[systemtermz]

using a side sys blog since I don't wanna put my main in system areas (I keep stuff separated, anxious asf about people finding out).

but anyways, I was wondering how you conclude a term is endo vs not endo? /genq

we coin terms, which are on the 'pedia, and occasionally get really paranoid they'll be seen as endo, even though we are traumagenic and the terms are really only made with traumagenic systems in mind.

Any -genic terms are end0 terms, most of my reclaimed end0 terms were -genic terms I changed up.

Other terms will not be considered end0 terms unless they are specifically stated that they are for things like system h0pping or other terms end0s made up.

If the terms are for traumagenics then it shouldn’t be a problem, as I can usually tell.

[multiplicity-positivity]

Hi, not about positivity posts, but I was wondering if there is such a thing as pain-genic multiplicity? I've noticed in myself I seem to have like split identities (like wanting to go by different names and pronouns and stuff, feeling like my own action were Not Mine), more internal arguing, sometimes not remembering small amounts of time recently, not being able to get a grip on what I did today or yesterday and definitely not this week, and having more differences in what I remember from the past (I probably have dissociative amnesia regardless). I've had several therapists confirm I dissociate, it's just difficult/scary to get them to consider any multiplicity. Especially when it fluctuates, I have times I don't think I've any symptoms, but then, when I'm in more pain I notice so many and I am so confused. Do you know the answer or someone who does? is pain -genic a thing? Does my experiences sound like anything?

Hi! So in general, we think “-genic” in system spaces refers to the origins of a system, not what designates when headmates front. So if you notice your headmates, parts, or alters more when you’re in pain, that doesn’t necessarily mean that these headmates were formed right then because of that pain (if that makes sense?).

In fact, if you’re traumagenic (or have a dissociative disorder like DID), your alters may be fronting or interacting with you when you’re in pain as a means of protecting the system. We wouldn’t call something like this “paingenic” (although alters can absolutely split from trauma involving physical pain!).

For example, we have alters in our system who only front or interact with the others in times of great stress. We used to partially identify with the “stressgenic” label, but for us, it is apparent that these alters formed due to trauma - specifically trauma related to overwhelming stressful events. So now, when we’re really stressed, they front or reach out to our host because that is their role in our system.

Not every system uses or benefits from member roles or origin labels, but many do! In the end, you are welcome to use whatever language you wish that works to describe your system and your experience. It sounds like you go through a lot of things we go through as a DID system (wrt amnesia, internal conflicts, depersonalization, derealization, etc), but ultimately it is up to you and your system to pinpoint the labels that work best for you!

P.S. If you do find that your system origins are directly related to physical pain, or that you only tend to split new alters or headmates when you’re in pain, there’s nothing wrong with identifying as xenogenic, or coining your own xeno-origin that best fits your system!

🌸 Margo and 🐢 Kip

[morbidmobian]

Info Post – 🦇

Call me Morbid, Corvid or Lykos. I am 18 years old and use He / They / It / Xe pronouns OR individual alters pronouns. I am a multiply disabled + disordered hcdid system. This blog will be used to reblog posts about queer identities and our disabilities / disorders, occasionally I'll make my own posts.

Read more to get to know us and our boundaries.

About me ::

As a collective we are transgender, transmasculine, genderqueer, xenogender, bisexual and aroacespec. My parts have their own identities and pronouns.

I have quite a few disorders and disabilities that impact the way I function and interact online. We are a part time cane user, struggle with tone and are often low energy. Please be patient when interacting with us.

We use plural and singular terms, and use the terms alters / parts. Do not use sysmate / headmate or anything else.

Most of us cannot understand tone tags and do not use them, they're only used by and to our partner system.

We are a HC-DID system, meaning we are a survivor of RAMCOA. We will not argue over the term HC-DID. We do not associate with the coiners actions. Do not tell us what terms to use. If you have an issue, you can simply block us. Asking invasive questions ("what programs do you have?" and such) will get you blocked without a second thought.

Account boundaries ::

As this is the internet, I can't prevent people from following or otherwise interacting with me. I do not have a DNI, but I will likely block people who are the following. ::

Anti good faith identities, pro endogenic / endogenic neutral [and other "-genics" that aren't traumagenic], pro/com shippers, transid / transx (like "transramcoa"), you use number names as a someone without number programming, you police what terms others use, you demonize PDs and other disorders for genuine symptoms [this also means demonizing all persecutors simply for being persecutors], you romanticize disorders, pro gun, anti abortion / "pro life", zionists, you use sexual pronouns without a non-sexual alternative.

Before you interact ::

Alters will typically not make themselves known, do not demand to know who is fronting. Do not demand any information on our system, members, programming, organization, trauma etc. Be a decent human being.

For more information, read our carrd or pronouns.cc. – 🦇

[rayssyscourse]

I've never really understood a lot of discourse around system spaces so I'm just shooting this ask to see if you wanted to answer some questions.

1.How are we defining traumagenic and endogenic spaces? There seems to be a lot of talk about these spaces and keeping them separate, but it's never really specified what or where these spaces are. If we're talking about Tumblr tags, I don't think you can get more refined anymore than they already are and it's also an open space.

2. And in what ways do you find that the communities are intertwined? Beyond the use of basic terminology, I feel that most endogenic and traumgenic spaces (Tumblr, websites, subreddits) have completely different "vibes" and terminology usage. From my perspective there is a thick line between endogenics and traumagenic spaces and I don't see the blurring of disordered and non-disordered. Not saying you're wrong /gen, I just don't understand.

3. I see a lot of people talking about endogenic systems entering traumagenic spaces, is this a problem that can't be solved by just blocking the endogenic tags or removing them from the servers? And, what is the severity of this issue in the first place? Are there flocks of endogenic systems overwhelming these spaces or a stray once in a while?

For sure! Keep in mind this is just my perspective, but here's my thoughts :)

1. I'm defining them mainly as stuff like group chats, support groups, servers, blogs, and other internet spaces that serve as places to talk about this stuff. You're right that Tumblr tags are pretty open lol. I'm talking more about the more designated discussion and support groups/spaces.

2. Essentially, it's the fact that endo and traumagenic systems are viewed as more or less the same thing with slight differences. (That's a little bit of an exaggeration but hopefully you get what I mean lol.) The same terms are used to describe different things. Even the "-genic" terms imply that we're basically the same/equatable. Of course there are similarities, but my main issue is the fact that the communities are viewed as two parts of a whole instead of different experiences with similarities. Hope that makes sense, I'm kinda tired rn and idk if I articulated that super well.

3. In some cases, yes, it can be. But half of the problem is that spaces are viewed as open to all origins by default. Spaces that designated themselves as traumagenic only are often harassed for not allowing endos, even if they haven't actually said anything against endos. There's very little recognition of the difference in the experiences. And as for the severity, it's in between. I'm not saying every space is being completely overrun, but it's difficult to see spaces harassed, crowded with people whose space it isn't, etc. when we just want to be recognized as what we are and have community.

I realize that last little bit could come across as antagonizing, so let me just say I'm not trying to blame all endos or say that they're, like, the root of all the problems in the community.

Anyways, I hope that clears things up! Thank you for the ask and for asking for clarification :) Again I'm a little tired so I hope this makes sense. Have a lovely day <3

[moonpool-system]

7 for the ask game?

7. "Do you prefer “-genic” terms, or Emmengard’s terms (Unknown, Adaptive, Spontaneous, Created, Mixed)?"

This is a really interesting question! On the whole, we do prefer "mixed/mixed origin" to "multigenic" because it communicates the information a lot more clearly. We also fit into both adaptive and created categories as well. (Gonna be using "I" here a lot since I'm the system manager so managing this stuff is literally my job)

I think having broad terms is a fantastic idea for solidarity- however, when "adaptive" can cover everything from formation from many various types of trauma to formation from autistic mirroring, I do think more specific terms are important as well. Words like traumagenic and neurogenic/etc are important to differentiate what kinds of accomodations and considerations system might need, in and out of therapy. This applies to the term "created" too - there're lots of created or otherwise manifested entities out there, including some soulbonds, tulpas, daemons, shadows & personas, MANY other types of thoughtforms, and tons more. Created is great as a blanket term to bring us together, but specificity not only helps people understand intricacies, but makes it so individual communities can blossom on their own.

The word we throw around most often is "traumaendo", which - while yes, it is technically a -genic derivative origin term - is much more of a community label along the lines of Emmengard's terms. It's meant for solidarity between different types of systems that are both traumagenic and endogenic for any reason, and to bring us together with visibility and defiance of the binary. (That's why we use it in conjunction with "pluralpunk" for us.) To us specifically, "traumaendo" is being mixed origin with some traumagenic members, some endogenic, some unable to tell or a combination of both, and the system itself holding both traumabased and endobased qualities. To other systems, it can mean a million other different specific definitions as well, all culminating under the "are you traumagen or endogen?" "yes, both" umbrella. I think that quality is shared directly with Emmengard's terms, bolstered by the community identity and history behind traumagen and endogen labels.

Basically, we ike Emmengard's terms for their solidarity and inclusivity as well as being more understandable to outsiders, and we like -genic terms for their specificity and quick communication of detailed concepts. We use a mix of whatever fits best at the time for the information we're trying to convey and who we're explaining to. Ironically, I think they have very opposite downsides- Emmengard's terms can be too broad for specificity, and -genic terms can get so micro-specific it's easy to get lost in the details. So both have their uses to us!

[syscourse-confessions]

syscourse makes us so insanely frustrated because everyone forgets that ALL origin theories are uh. Theories.

They are not ontological Types of Systems by belief that one is xyz -genic thing, they are not Totally Exclusive Neurotypes, they are theories for why one is experiencing their material 'more than one' experiences.

There is no 'this is what a trauma/endo/whatever-genic system looks like' that will not exclude some people who believe in those origins that they do and can back those beliefs up with well reasoned ideas about it that are as good as any other.

Yelling at people for experiencing material experiences and asking for resources or community because they don't have the right theories about why they are that way is unhelpful- and yes, this happens on both sides.

We think perhaps things could get a little less awful if everyone on all sides acknowledged that what we are ALLEGEDLY fighting about is theories on origin being coherent/true or not and maybe chose to stop pretending like theories were types of systems.

Maybe stop gatekeeping resources (both people saying x origin dni on this resource post and self-gatekeeping refusal to read resources that could help because you arent a traumagenic/tulpa/whatever system) based on THEORY when all its doing is denying help to people who may be helped by it.

The butter knife may be great to butter bread but you can also use it as a screwdriver if none are present, yeah? Reading isnt 'taking resources'.

For all all of us know this is autoimmune BS that alters the brain and can be activated through various means and DID is that plus C-PTSD layered and ALL of us are wrong! We just do NOT know enough about the brain and what is going on there in full.

We are fighting a THEORY debate, and we really wish people would remember that and stop trying to make it a 'you aren't actually plural because you aren't exactly like me' war.

And for those that really arent fighting a theory war and DO want to fight a 'this is the only material experience that is valid despite the fact that this will lock out professionally diagnosed systems that you are claiming to help' war, thats nasty. Shame on you.

Just. Seeing WAY too much of people treating theories like perfectly defined neurotypes and its just AAAHGHGHHGGHGH

💙

💙 - Vent

[circulars-reasoning]

What about “accidental thoughtforms”? Those are something that happens, from what I’ve heard paromancers/willomancers claim.

again, depends on what you consider a thoughtform. any system member could count as a thoughtform in how i see and percieve that word specifically (at least in this moment in time). any thought htat has a form, whether sentient or not, whether permanent or not, can count under it.

if you are using the term tulpa, as in a "consciously created headmate", i don't think that accidental tulpas are "real" in that sense, but from what i can tell, the word tulpa is (at this point) a synonym for the phrase "headmate that was more than likely created consciously but not exclusively". so the differences only really matter on "what is te term you are trying to shove this thing into, and what definition do you have for that term", if that makes sense.

to go back to your original points, a created headmate like debra would fall under the western tulpa definition, but not fall under the original tibetan definition.

That is COMPLETELY fair (your points about writing). I suppose this topic boils down to “if someone feels their brain occurrences is a thoughtform, then its a thoughtform.” Autism brain just always desires more concrete definitions, lol.

yeah, concrete definitions are good, but most definitions arent fully concrete and especially when relating to internal, unprovable* experiences like plurality... theres no true concrete definition ever.

(*unprovable as in we could never scan someones brain to say yes you have multiple thoughtforms/headmates/etc unless we figure out what consciousness and awareness really is. which will be years into the future if at all, ever)

I’m on the same page as you on the self-identified experiences honestly. I find the labels helpful sometimes, but experiences are so varied that its often far more helpful (when seeking advice) to label yourself as disordered or nondisordered, or to provide context of things like “It’s likely what I’m experiencing is due to trauma, does anyone have tips?”

yeah, which is what the shorthands like the genic labels are supposed to do, but the community makes it more stressful than helpful. plus, with the state of syscourse in the plural community, it's scary to admit you have any speciific origin at some points (although more scary for systems who aren't fully traumagenic at times, at least from my experience.)

This is somewhat unrelated to this whole topic, but that final piece about misgendering – I’ve noticed this is a major problem in system communities, from using only the host’s pronouns, to assuming collective they/them (despite corrections), to “you&” becoming a default pronoun for many people… It’s interesting, and something I want to look into more. I’m not too hurt by it, thankfully, though this encounter was the most interesting by far (particularly as my system dabbles with it/its).

as a system who has a host that uses they/them and we collectively use they/them and also don't mind you& as a term, i cannot really understand how that feels, but people should be more aware of what a system prefers and what terms they like. we all differ. accepting those differences, instead of assuming one way or another, is better

💙💙💙 Woohoo!! Thanks for the really great conversation, Anon. This definitely helped clarify for me what the community for created alters is going for. :) thank you for taking the time to explain your insights to me and address my points/questions!

[thestarseersystem]

I don't want to use "traumagenic" as a term, I don't want to be associated with systems who believe in origins. Cause that's literally not how that works and it won't ever be how that works. My blog is only for people with DID/OSDD/UDD. Xndxgenic isn't a term that should exist, at least not in system spaces.

Go ahead, use genic terms! But my blog isn't for you. You can interact, I literally don't give a shit. But origins aren't a thing. This disorder is literally just formed one way and that's it. A myriad of experiences, sure, but it's just.. factually wrong otherwise.

If you're a system then you're a system, but dont ever expect me to use genic terms because I refuse to acknowledge it anymore. Clearly you know jack shit about how this actually works and I'm not obligated to listen to you. So just block me for fuck's sake.

I'm tired. Origin terms are fucking stupid.