#both sides of syscourse can interact

[manyminded]

hey plural community can you get your FUCKING act together? I’m just trying to go into tags to find something relatable and it’s literally warfare. can we stop treating other living breathing people like dogshit? please?

[amity-moonrise]

Its been ages before I have had to speak up about someone elses harmful actions since that system hottake blog.

But I am actually done just sitting around doing nothing when anti endos like this person are encouraging bullying towards endogenic systems

This doesn’t make me any less anti endo, nor does it mean that we support endogenic systems, in fact, we personally don’t believe that it’s even possible to be endogenic and that most of them are either:

- misguided by those who prey on minors (like sophie),

- have DID but don’t remember their trauma,

- are confusing their symptoms for DID when they probably have a different disorder,

- are experiencing something that no one is able to give a proper name to so they make it sound like a CDD when it’s clearly not,

- or are just straight up insane (ahem, like sophie)

You do not, under any circumstances, bully people, even if they have hurt you or you really really hate them to the core. “Oh but endos are evil, they’re ableist scums of the earth and they constantly hurt us and shit-” YOU DONT STOOP TO THEIR LEVEL.

Wanna know why they absolutely despise us? This is why

When you give radical anti endos a platform to speak, a platform to target endos who are most likely just trying to exist, you get people bullying them. You get people who are attacking the other community and harassing them. When you enable radical anti endos a platform to speak, you are hurting both communities

Anti endos have been fighting for ages to get basic respect from the other side and to just be left alone and not have people roleplay or romanticize the disorder, but radicals literally undo all the hard work by giving pro endos a reason to bully and harass back and invalidate all of us because of a select few, which is also exactly how we treat them when we are being attacked by people like sophieinwonderland or other radical pro endos

I could probably guarantee you that the majority of the system community just wants this useless fighting to stop and for all the bullying, harassment, and ableism to stop. I can guarantee you that most people on BOTH sides are not fully one or the other, and that we fall closer to the middle and have nuanced stances on certain topics. We are not robots, we have complex opinions, and syscourse is no exception.

If you don’t want the other side to interact with you then block them and set your boundaries. Filter out tags you don’t want to see, block people like this person who you know are toxic and hurt people regardless of what their stances are. You are responsible for how you want to interact and contribute to the community. It is your responsibility to be the better person.

And if you see problems within your own community, SPEAK UP ABOUT IT. When you stay silent knowing that you have seen the problems that exist within the community, you are complicit in the bullying and harassment. You are letting radicals dictate the reputation of your community. This goes for both anti and pro endos. Stop staying silent, otherwise nothing will change.

I know this system community can do better. I have seen the good from both sides. We really should stop fighting and actually respect each other and understand that our experiences are different from one another and it doesn’t automatically make their experiences invalid just because they don’t match yours. Who knows, if we can actually get along we would be a lot more empathetic towards each other and maybe, JUST MAYBE, we could stop the actually ableist fuckers and the bullies who are ruining it for everyone. We could actually work together and take down harmful spaces like r/syscringe and r/fakedisordercringe, these harm BOTH COMMUNITIES and are places that ENABLE BULLYING AND FAKECLAIMING.

Nothing gets done when people stay silent, when people stay divided, and when you ignore the problems in your own community that the opposition has constantly been highlighting on for ages. Learn what makes someone radical in their beliefs, learn the difference between what is actually wrong versus what is just an opinion that conflicts with your own beliefs because those two are NOT the same. Learn to stay away from toxic spaces and warn others of these places, like the K9 Cave server on discord or r/syscringe on reddit. Educate yourself, not just on CDDs and how they actually work but also on endogenic experiences and how they affect people who genuinely believe that they are endogenic. You may not personally believe in them, but if you stay educated on these topics then it benefits both communities and you could actually help someone who may have something misunderstood or is unknowingly spreading misinformation about it. You really can’t expect pro endos and endos to do their research about CDDs but then also not listen to their experiences and their ideas on the complexities of plurality. You don’t have to agree with it, but if you refuse to even listen to them then its pretty hypocritical to ask them to listen to you.

I don’t have to accept their experiences as pure fact or scientifically proven, but I can respect it and be empathetic instead of bullying them and understand that in reality, we don’t know everything. I shouldn’t have to risk “looking like a pro endo��� or seem like I am siding with them when I am very much anti endo to get this point across:

That bullying someone for having completely different opinions, views, and experiences is wrong, and you cannot justify it.

I’m not here to say that “oh endos are valid” or “oh endos are invalid” that is not my point. My point is that even if you don’t share the same views, opinions and experiences with them, you have no right to bully them.

There is a fuckton that we don’t know. This world is already against all of us in general. The best we can do is work together and have basic respect for each other. Just, basic respect, you don’t even need to interact with the other side, just respect each others boundaries.

Please reblog and share this, both anti and pro endos. And please don’t go harassing this person, don’t give them a reason to target you. This post is incredibly important for both communities especially since the rise of bullying from BOTH sides has caused extreme turmoil for those who end up getting caught in the crossfire.

[shattered-system]

The “Redefinition” of Systempunk

Updated version!

We're not typically an essay kind of blog, but there's something l've been turning over in my mind since l've seen it.

I have the post pulled up now actually, and about 11 hours ago @/the-alarm-system "recoined" (stole) the term systempunk in a long post, as well as designed a flag with its own meaning and I want to sort through some of it.

I also have a few personal pet peeves about their flag design, given that it's color palette clashes and the flag is way too busy. I don't expect it to spread far given that it violates several rules of good design (saying this as someone who has been to school for graphic design.)

I will not post it here, because I don't care to spread it any more than this post already may.

Their flag slightly predates my own version of the systempunk flag, but given that theirs was created for a separate concept with a stolen name, I maintain that we were the first.

We begin with their definition of systempunk.

“A term or Subculture surrounding the liberation of plurals and the critique of psychiatry."

First issue lies here. Both the destigmitization of dissociative disorders and critique of the psych field are extremely important discussions to have!

But they are separate discussions. There is absolutely overlap, but combining the two here is kind of shooting yourself in the foot, because then the conversation in that tag will be disorganized.

Have a systempunk movement AND an anti-psych or psych-critical movement. That way people can easily find the relevant discussions and terms.

This is followed up with a bit about the harm the psychiatric field has caused (not delving into that as that's not what this blog is about) and then circle back onto "the future is plural."

This is not one of the instances where OP means it in the "the future is destigmitization" sense, as they are pro endo. (On a side note, even ignoring the endo use of the phrase-- if I need to read about a slogan to understand the meaning of the slogan, it's a bad slogan. The point of a slogan is to communicate a concept quickly.)

The flag has black and brown stripes akin to the progress flag to represent systems of color, which is the only part of the design we have no critique for, but are describing anyway just as a bit of information.

The purple stripe stands for:

“Endo solidarity... endogenic systems are continuously harmed by antis who remain uncritical of psychiatry."

Once again, we are mixing two expansive concepts into one term.

The term anti-endo doesn't imply a position one way or the other on the psychiatry discussion.

Some anti-endos swear by the DSM5, others don't. Anti-endo is a term that means anti-endo/ endo-critical. That is all it means.

There is a difference between holding the DSM as the complete authority on mental illness and saying that a trauma disorder is caused by trauma.

I'm not sure if OP knows that and is choosing to cast anti-endos in a bad light, or legitimately confused. However, OP is a syscourse blog who is on a lot of blocklists and is spammy in the tags, and has likely been blocked by anyone who isn't also out looking to pick immature fights. (This is a system who made a post in all caps calling for an endo raid on #systempunk.)

Continuing directly from the last quote:

“[Antis] are against the liberation of plurals and deny a plural future in order to push singlethood onto others."

It's possible OP is referring to final fusion, which the anti-endo community is not a monolith on either. Most people we've interacted with are supporters of functional multiplicity (including ourselves.)

Most likely however, they mean that anti-endos "push singlethood" by telling endogenics that they can't have a trauma disorder without trauma.

And I could go into a whole tirade about that, but dozens of systems have done it before and I doubt any pro-endos have gotten this far. I am writing this for the anti-endo and on-the-fence audiences.

Visit @antimisinfo's helpful masterpost for a list of legitimate sources.

OP seems to believe that by “forcing” this singlethood, we are contributing directly to the oppression of systems. Hypocritically, OP themselves are contributing directly to the oppression of trauma victims.

Endogenics are not part of the "diverse experiences of plurality” (we are diverse, but united in origin) given that they don't exist. And if they did, they would have such a fundamentally different experience than trauma-formed systems that both groups would need separate language and tags to have space to themselves.

And endos already have a well-established punk tag for themselves. It seems they won't be happy until they chase trauma victims out of every space they create for themselves and steal every term. They've already stolen even the medical terminology used for CDDs.

The yellow stripe of the flag is meant to represent those with actual CDDs. Once again, psych stuff is brought up. However, I do agree with OP that those who do not want final fusion should not be pushed into it.

The pink and white stripes of the flag are entirely dedicated to anti-psych points. I think this would do wonderfully on it's own flag. But bringing the large range of discussion the anti-psych movement encompasses and the large range of discussion the CDD community has into the same tags is going to make it monumentally difficult to find the conversations you're wanting to have, and weaken both communities considerably.

There is a line of barbed wire across the flag that is partially for the same anti-psych movement as well as in favor of protecting and defending endogenic "identities." The ampersand stands for plurality.

There are fangs on the flag as well, encouraging systems to be loud and proud about their existence. And I agree that systems should make themselves known. However, endogenic systems don't exist, and their promotion will continue to drag us down.

I have read testimonies about traumagenic (real) systems being fakeclaimed or denied treatment by healthcare experts who, through exposure to endos, came to the conclusion CDDs are fake entirely.

Real systems seeking treatment and help after a lifetime of horrific abuse are being denied care.

Not to mention the setback of social acceptance by endos.

“Force plural liberation down the throats of others. Force the future to be plural."

[calico-constellation]

Hi! Feel no pressure to answer, but I have a few questions (regarding DID)

So I'm aware of what an endo system is, but I'm a bit confused on why it would be considered valid since the condition is directly caused by trauma, which is the thing that endos lack. Could you please explain your perspective on it? And maybe your perspective before you became pro-endo?

Hey! I've been sitting on this ask for a few days now. I do want to start out by thanking you for reaching out to me and asking about my perspective. Please note that you are not obligated to agree with me, or to change your mind just from my answer to your questions. I like having you as a mutual, and I will continue to do so regardless of your syscourse stance.

I'm going to grab a term that some of my mutuals in the DID community have used, and say I'm really more pro syscourse conversation than I am pro endo- pro endo is just the easiest way to communicate my basic stances.

I think the most important thing to understand here is that a lot of the time, the "are endos real" debate suffers from both sides fundamentally misunderstanding what the other's stance actually is. While there is a small subsection of the endo community claiming that DID isn't trauma based- which I vehemently disagree with, DID is absolutely trauma based, and that's backed by all of the research- that's not the majority.

Most endogenic systems are not claiming to have DID. They are claiming to experience themselves as more than one. I am by no means an expert on this, but I know that it is a very western-centric view to assume that everyone subscribes to being one singular self. If you want to learn more about non-western views on the self and on plurality, I would recommend looking at @system-of-a-feather's blog. They make great posts on the subject!

And- here's a real kicker- not everyone with a CDD- CDD standing for complex dissociative disorders and including the likes of DID, OSDD, P-DID, UDD, etc- actually identifies as plural. Not everyone with even DID identifies as plural. So if someone with a CDD can identify as one, what's stopping someone who doesn't have a CDD from identifying as more than one? This post puts it pretty well, so I'm just going to link it here! And if you're looking for scientific backing on endo systems? Dr Colin Ross, one of the very well known DID researchers, believes in non-traumagenic self states.

Basically, I'm choosing to believe people when they talk about their subjective personal experiences.

Now you did also ask about my anti-endo days and I will also gladly talk about those. I will admit, I was the worst kind of anti-endo. I was the type of person who would throw even other CDD systems under the bus as fakers because I wanted to seem more legitimate. Everyone who didn't present the "right" way was a faker. And endos, my goodness. They were the worst fakers of them all.

It was an extremely reactive position to take. I was suffering from my plurality, therefore everyone who wasn't had to be faking. They were making a mockery out of me! At least, that's how I perceived it.

And then I started interacting with endos, and pro endos. I realized that they were also real people, not just an abstract concept to make fun of to make myself look more legitimate. And I started reading blogs that had the rawest, realest content about CDDs that I'd come across thus far... and they were pro endo. And the arguments as to why were really good.

Somewhere along the way, I realized that the things that were leading me to being anti endo were the same things that made me into a transmed when in the 2010s. I believed that people had to meet a minimum quota of suffering to be real. In a way, I was defining people by it. And ultimately, if they are lying? It costs me nothing to believe them. I'd rather believe some liars than not believe people who are telling the truth. I've had enough experience with people not believing me. It sucks. I didn't want to keep doing that to others.

That's about the end of this yap session! Seriously, thanks again for asking, I really enjoyed writing this post. I hope I answered in a way that makes sense to you!

[sophieinwonderland]

Hi sophie, I'm the host very small traumagenic(could be otherwise) group(we don't ..I was hoping to give a little more perspective into why we consider ourselves "endo-nuetral". Also if this is not the correct term, maybe you can suggest another one?

We do not really care for system discourse, we find it very difficult to interact with people when they are so stuck on stances, orgins, validity etc. just so they can argue. It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" type of situation that's very exhausting for us, we don't have the spoons to constantly go back and forth, or try to prove of convince others to just shut up and take others point of views into consideration. We am are not anti endo at all, plurality comes in all sorts of forms and that's basic knowledge, but we use it to signal to others "we are not gonna argue about endos with you, fuck off". Ultimately we love seeing other people's opinions, and their thoughts, and their stances on certian things. But like, yk, it's just so irritating being pulled at the limbs by both sides for having opinions.

So I'm searching for a better term to just if you could possibly assist with that?

You're probably not going to like my opinion, but I think the only valid stance is pro-endo.

Like, you believe endogenic systems exist... I'm sure you agree that endogenic systems have a right to exist and not face hate for being endogenic... that's pro-endo.

If the only reason you're identifying as neutral is to avoid syscourse, that's probably going to have the opposite effect. It puts you in the middle where endogenic systems won't feel safe with you, and probably is going to encourage anti-endos to interact and argue. The reason being that they see someone on the fence, whose mind they can potentially change.

So... why not just be pro-endo? Why not embrace it?

I think the better way to signal "we are not gonna argue about endos with you, fuck off" is to be proudly pro-end, make it clear that you won't participate in syscourse, and you won't change your mind because you know that plurality comes in all forms.

Sure, you may still get hate. But it's only going to be coming from one side, and probably even less from that side because they know they won't be able to bully you into submission.

I just don't see the value in taking any sort of middle ground. It's not going to keep you out of discourse. It's not going to protect you from anti-endos. And it's actually likely to pull you more into discourse than if you had actually firmly picked a side.

[yourpeepysucksdotorg]

Looking back on my syscourse days with the wisdom of age, I feel as if I can pinpoint a single psychological concept that explains why syscourse is so prevalent to begin with, and why it’s so toxic and inescapable; group polarization. Basically, people are more likely to come to extreme conclusions or make risky decisions when in a group with those sharing the same ideologies, even though most members of the group will have the same core beliefs that aren’t nearly as radical.

In syscourse, this most often occurs when people debate the validity of endogenic systems. It also makes it impossible to have a good-faith discussion on the matter.

I’m not endo-neutral, and while my thoughts on the matter can be found elsewhere on my blog, I’ll remain neutral for the sake of this post making it to as many people as possible, because I genuinely believe so much fighting could be stopped if we just recognized the unhealthy patterns we’ve fallen into. Disordered systems who are anti-endo seem to blame endogenic systems for a lot of things, and while I’m not endogenic, I can pretty accurately guess that having a bunch of strangers tell you that you make their lives worse by expressing your identity makes you feel shitty. This keeps the two communities separated outside of verbal spats, and of course, after these spats, members of both communities will want support. Once again, I can’t speak from the endogenic perspective. But I know that anti-endos will continue to perpetuate that endos are bad, that you didn’t do anything wrong, that they’re just dumb and stupid. Which, I can assume this keeps endogenic systems in constant defense mode, as they constantly have to check which system blogs or servers are or aren’t okay to interact with, out of fear of being attacked by other systems, or worse, becoming some kind of lolcow for singlets.

When both sides feel like they’re being attacked, no productive discussion can be had. Once again, I do have my own opinions on the matter, but right now, I’m really just advocating for all systems to treat each other like living beings. If someone is being terrible to you, there’s no pressure to fight back. Just block them. While that one person might be an asshole, there are so many more people who care about you, support you, and want you to exist more than you even know. This is a saying as old as time, but don’t feed the trolls. Don’t aggressively retaliate, because you’re just giving them more material to bend to their will. And if you’re the one perpetuating assholery, just stop.

Maybe I’m just being an optimist, but I believe that so much syscourse could become irrelevant if we realized that the world isn’t black and white, and there aren’t good and evil systems. We’re all in this together, singlets are still gonna treat us like we’re nuts. We need to stand united rather than push each other further and further away.

[syscultureis]

(Vent) Plural culture is making a system blog to interact with the system community on tumblr and deleting it the very next day due to all the discourse. Specifically, the anti vs. pro endo bullshit. Both of you shut the fuck up, this is the most annoying fucking discussion I've ever heard. Neither of these sides are right or wrong, both are fucking braindead though. Can you tell I'm fucking annoyed by this whole thing. We can't enjoy a community we belong to because all there is, is fighting between a side that supposedly doesn't belong here, and a side that will do anything in it's power to make sure they stay excluded. I blocked all syscourse tags, and my dash looked like I had blocked almost every tag in existence, 8/10 posts were syscourse. What the fuck does anyone hope to achieve with this bullshit? You don't like someone, fucking block them and move on, don't make it everyone else's problem and start a whole war about it. Grow the fuck up.

– A very annoyed and pissed off traumagenic system

.

[roycekeaner]

ummm very needed intro post revamp. please please please read !!! sections in order : 'who runs this blog ?', 'what do i do ?', 'boundaries', 'sys information !', 'blog resources !'

who runs this blog ?

my name is royce, but you can also call me rory / ror / ro or just keaner !

he / it / that pronouns, masc and object terms !

i'm a rory keaner fictive with a heavy connection to the fictokin community because i was one before splitting. i'm very source connected ! any kind of 'reality checking' will get you blocked.

i love getting questions about my source and will happily answer any asks about it as long as they don't cross a boundary !!!

i'm bodily a minor and an age slider - if that makes you uncomfy, block me.

what do i do ?

i'm an editor, writer, and chronic shitposter. i post a lot of mbav photo dumps both here and on pinterest ( @/K0DYYYYY ), and primarily post edits on tiktok ( previously @/kody_rulez, now moved to @/royce X3 )

i also have a sfw agere side blog ( @royce-ruffs ) and pinterest account ( @/vampdogagere ) !!!

if you repost any of my video edits, they must include my username and a link to the original post. you can use my wallpapers, gifs, userboxes, images, etc without credit, but it is appreciated !

p.s. if you want to avoid seeing posts about heavy topics, you can block the '#exotrauma' tag.

boundaries

i don't really have a dni, just important info / rules. i also block freely !

i'm kind of awkward around doubles, but feel free to interact ! sourcemates be cautious, some of the things i post may be upsetting. i use content warning tags, ship tags, and gender / sexuality headcanon tags so that people can filter them. if you need me to use a warning tag, let me know ! i have a tag guide as well since i use so many—linked at the bottom of this post.

i avoid syscourse ( anyone who doesn't surround themselves with it can interact ) and fandom discourse like the plague.

i'm extremely uncomfy with fem / gnc / nonbinary / genderfluid / etc rory content because it makes me dysphoric. if you reblog any of my posts with these topics, you will be asked to take it down, and blocked if you don't.

if you're someone who posts about, reads, writes, or otherwise supports nsfw 'bottom rory' content, block me.

^ i don't mind otherwise nsfw accounts as long as your interactions with me are purely sfw. nsfw jokes / innuendos are fine from mutuals within my age range.

i don't care if you're tcc but don't shove it in my face.

sys information !

we're still very new to syshood, but we had been questioning it for a really long time and have done research. we're also still looking for a system name, and suggestions are welcome !

we currently have a very low headcount as far as we're aware.

we don't really like being referred to with plural they / them pronouns, and would prefer object terms / pronouns. ( ex. what instead of who, that or it instead of them )

i got @maesmonstrousexistence to help with most of this post… he's our co-host !!! go give him some attention…

we're still setting up our simply plural, but once it's done, it will likely be given out to close friends / mutuals.

blog resources !

tag guide - still being updated !!! i still have to change all of the fictokin tags to fictive tags.

where to watch mbav for free

this post might be updated / changed, please check back in once in a while !

[sysmedsaresexist]

We really need to come up with better terms for syscourse stances because the main ones aren't cutting it

Anti endo can mean everything from staunch disbelief and bad, aggressive posts to completely believing that endogenic systems are real and valid but not wanting them to interact with CDD-specific content

Being pro endo can mean someone believes DID is caused by trauma and that the CDD community must be protected above all else, to people actively villainizing CDD systems and everything in-between

Endo neutral can mean everything from not caring at all about syscourse and refusing to engage, to allowing interaction from all sides without judgement despite personal beliefs

Anti-misinformation had promise at one point in reference to the massive amounts of misinformation in both communities, but it wasn't working

Any and all of these labels can mean you think the DSM or ICD directly affirms endogenic systems and they can also mean that person has never picked up a DSM in their life

NONE OF THESE ARE WORKING

None of them are accurate

None of them convey the full picture

These are useless labels

(I don't want to hear a peep about the syscourse code, that's not cutting it either, no one has time for that)

People getting upset over pro endo mods on anti endo blogs don't realize that you can share the exact same beliefs about science and the communities and use opposing labels.

Some pro endo blogs should try putting an anti endo on their team to control misinformation and point out ableism, seriously, interaction is how you start learning, anti endos seem more willing to take that step than pro endos and that's pathetic

I also think it might be good to remove the focus from the validity and acceptance of endogenic systems (anti/pro endo) and place it back on what's important-- protecting traumatized individuals

Maybe something like "#CDDs first" can convey that your intention, attention, and audience will always prioritize the CDD community and their safety, but even that... someone can be well-intentioned when they misquote things

I don't know, I'd love to hear the communities' thoughts-- both pro and anti, I'd like this to spread around a bit, I think it's important that people realize that labels don't mean there's disagreement on ideas and concepts-- a pro endo can share the same goals and ideas as an anti endo and vice versa

For example, at this point, I'll happily interact with anyone who agrees that DID is a childhood trauma disorder. That's it. That's my bar. No more, no less. There are pro endos who believe the exact same things I do on all fronts, despite calling me anti endo.

It really just doesn't make sense.

Maybe together we can come up with something better

[thelunarsystemwrites]

Hey.

Let's talk, shall we?

First of all, don't consider this a break. Don't think that the reason Lunar was gone so long was because luar were on a break, that's not what this was. The main factor in our hiatus was the fact we were and are depressed, and did not have the energy to come online. This was not a conscious decision made on Lunar's part.

With that said, there were other contributions that kept us away from Tumblr.

For one, syscourse has slowly started entering the spaces we would be in. We ourselves have differing opinions, but generally consider ourself anti-endo. Lunar is explicitly anti-endo, and I, CJ, am more or less neutral with a preference of anti-endo.

Shipcourse had also played a role in our disappearance. When we logged on yesterday, just to browse, we were greeted by several posts on it immediately. Lunar, and myself and majority of the system, do not like nor condone com-ship. With that said, it is extremely aggravating to continuously be exposed to both sides of the argument, period. Shipcourse is not just about com-ship verus anti, however. But general discourse on ships such as, "Killermare", which I saw yesterday. Regardless of what side of the argument you are on, thosr expressing their opinions in extreme or aggressive ways has also been a factor, though only we are to blame for allowing ourself to be exposed to it so often. That, is on us.

Several people on this app has blantly ignored Lunar's boundaries. They do not want to say or hear "I love you" from anyone, minus luar family or boyfriend. (Inka, Italic, Myst, Zero, Rick, so on.) I should not have to speak on luar behalf, but lua are co-fronting by the time I've gotten to this paragraph, so I will. These boundaries have been stated several times, but never implemented in the pinned post, I will resolve this when I get to it.

Same for many other boundaries, several people have become overly friendly with them, direct messaging them when they have repeatedly request that people first seek their permission. These boundary violations will no longer be tolerated. If me, or another headmate must come closer to front to establish this, then we can and will.

Also, despite it being clear, I am rarely able to observe others respecting luar preferred pronouns. (Lua/Luan/Luar.)

I will make this clear as day: Lunar does not owe you an in depth explanation on why lua has been gone so long.

New boundaries you are expected to respect if you would like to continue interaction with this account: Do not say "I love you." To Lunar, unless you are Zero, Myst, Rick, Inka, or Italic. Do not call luan a friend unless lua has called you one. Do not direct message luan unless you've asked first, though then you may be free to continue to. Do not call luan "Luna." It is and always has been Lunar or Luner. Pro-Endo blogs are encouraged to block or soft-block this account. Do not vent to luan without asking first, though, Zero, Myst, and Rick are excluded from this rule as well. Respect luar neopronouns, Lua/Luan/Luar.

I will block freely.

-CJ.

(Uhhh lunar edit here... sorry this is so harsh!! We wrote this last night and now it's just me- I added trigger tags and stuff!!)

[biolumi-sys]

mild vent ig

tw for syscourse relating to anti/pro endos

guys i only recently joined tumblr (like a month ago recent) and i already feel so behind. i hadnt even HEARD of endogenic systems like two weeks ago and it seems pretty relevant in my community. i haven't had the time to do any research (finals week youch) and yet the system-related tags i follow are inundated with more discourse than actual posts. its overwhelming, to be honest. i'm planning on doing research this weekend, so i can be up to date on whatever the hell is going on. for now, count me as neutral due to lack of information, and willing to hear out both sides.

furthermore, unless we bring it up, please don't bring syscourse into any interactions with us. its pretty triggering for a multitude of reasons that frankly don't have to be explained.

[manyminded]

please be normal abt endogenic systems and polyfrag systems and fictive heavy systems and systems w/o fictives and non-disordered systems etc etc etc. I’m tired

[scapeg8ats]

(Sorry for this being a long post, it became a rant/vent and a lot of thoughts. Someday I'll shut up about this I SWEAR lol. There's a TL;DR at the end.)

Maybe I'm not even interested in syscourse outside of learning more about plurality and its connections outside of CDDs and why someone may see themselves as plural or really any way of not seeing oneself as One Singular Self (whether it has to do with a disorder or it's a cultural/religious/etc. reason). Or I guess that does make me interested in syscourse. Just not echo chamber syscourse.

Like I'm sorry but y'all are fucking mean. I LOVE having discussions where I can learn and understand other perspectives. I guess to steal SAS's label, I'm very pro-syscourse conversation (though—and this isn't to bash SAS AT ALL—to me that feels redundant because syscourse is supposed to be conversation anyway. But it's not so the label is necessary). I want to learn. I want to be educated. I want to discuss this, even with people who disagree with me, because I want knowledge of other perspectives.

But it is so hard to find syscourse spaces that AREN'T echo chamber syscourse spaces. The desire to attain knowledge is stomped out by attaching inherent morality to labels that can be boiled down to one argument: Do you or do you not believe that plurality is exclusive to CDDs?

And shockingly this has more nuance than "endos are/n't valid". What may cause someone to see themselves as plural without a CDD? And the answers are vast and could be a FASCINATING discussion. Not even necessarily a debate, just learning more about people. And yet the answer to this question isn't even considered before so many people just go "[extremely loud incorrect buzzer noise]" and shut it down.

Maybe, ironically, this is me struggling to understand perspective. But I don't understand the lack of interest in wanting to understand, despite having experienced it myself. And even that, I want to understand. But I know that the fact that because of the nature of my opinions, I would be marked pro-endo, and shut out of that discussion. And it's INFURIATING because I respect the fact that they don't want to interact with me but I just don't understand!

There is endless room for discussion that's shut out and it's frustrating. It's heartbreaking. I want there to be discussion. But there won't be until the echo chambers start to open their fucking eyes.

I remember the moment for me was when someone in the Twitter dissociatwt community who I really respected, who always provided good resources, who was reliable and kind and honest...was pro-syscourse conversation. And my knee-jerk reaction was almost betrayal. How could someone that I respected be a pro-endo??

But I realized that they didn't stop being reliable because of this. Some of y'all will discount doctors who have been studying plurality, trauma, and dissociation longer than some of you have been alive because they're a stinky smelly "pro-endo". Therapists and doctors and the like who go "Why isn't it possible" get discounted because of this when they, too, just want to understand. Because with all due respect and in the most positive way, they're a bunch of nerds. And I don't understand. I don't understand how you can do that.

And that's really the thing. I don't understand and I'm not given the space to understand because my stance is somehow morally wrong. I'm not virtue signaling right. Sometimes for both sides. And it's awful.

TL;DR, I don't understand and am frustrated by echo chamber syscourse. That's it. That's all this long-ass post is saying. I don't get it. It didn't need a post but a lot of me just started Talking and did not stop.

[florafall-syscourse]

you say you're syscourse unaligned but you make it clear that you're pro-endo. why is that? just say that you side with endos.

i'm syscourse unaligned in the sense that i don't identify with either community (pro/anti). both communities have been bad for me, personally, to be in. i find that i like the label syscourse unaligned and that i feel much more free to say what i want and have conversations with whoever i want without being viewed as some kind of traitor to my "side" of syscourse. additionally, nobody can put me or my system into a box based on what "side" i'm on, because i'm not on any side.

i'm supportive of endogenics, yes, but to me, pro-endo and anti-endo are labels that entail more than what you think, there's weight to them; it's also about how you interact with the wider community. generally speaking, i don't like how either camp interacts with the community and i don't want to be involved in the pro/anti dichotomy beyond just voicing that non-traumagenics are safe on my blog. does that make sense?

edit: i also want to say that syscourse is not "endogenics vs CDD systems" im not siding with endogenics! because they aren't against us, yknow? they're just people with a couple similarities to us who want to exist peacefully.

[amitys-shenanigans]

A Masterlist of Issues within both communities: Anti and Pro Endos

NOTE: These are mostly generalized and the most notable problems that affect everyone. This doesn’t include one off incidents or assumptions that have been made by one side (at least it shouldn’t). If there are any inaccuracies, PLEASE LET US KNOW!!! If you want to add to this list, feel free to send us an ask. This list doesn’t necessarily apply to those who are in the middle, nor does every person in the community have these issues.

Issues within the Anti-Endo Community:

- Lack of empathy for endogenic systems and other non traumagenic origins***

- Using aggressive tags such as #endos fuck off

- Often not educated on what the pro endo community claims (though this is a very nuanced discussion)***

- Aggressive behavior towards endos that is often unnecessary

- Bullying, lots of it

- Harassing people in the middle who either don’t have a stance or their stances are nuanced

- Treating the whole other community as ableist when most people are genuinely just trying to exist***

***These issues have nuanced discussions about whether or not its right or wrong, and often have valid arguments from BOTH sides that need to be accounted for when deciding what the conclusion is. These topics will be discussed further in depth with reasoning below:

1. - Lack of empathy for endogenic systems and other non traumagenic origins***

Anti endos often do not account for the fact that many endos are simply just trying to exist. While it’s understandable why this lack of empathy exists (due to repeated harassment, endos causing trauma to anti endo individuals, the rampant ableism that exists in the pro endo community that is not addressed by their own community, calling anti endos sysmed and equating plurality to gender identity, etc), it should not be encouraged. This issue is often be the reason for why the bullying and harassment from anti endos is rising. While it’s understandable to have bitter feelings for pro endos due to valid reasons, treating them with a lack of empathy is often not a good idea. Should an anti endo ever come across any pro endos, they have the option to block, filter tags, and avoid pro endo spaces. Treating them with a lack of empathy is unneeded as there are steps that they can take to avoid interaction all together.

2. - Often not educated on what the pro endo community claims (though this is a very nuanced discussion)***

Anti Endos often make claims about the other community, such as the use of the word “traumascum” being created and used by pro endos. The use of this word is not common in the other community, in fact, the use of this word is incredibly discouraged by many pro endos. This is one example of slight misinformation. Another example is claiming that endos claim to have CDDs. While there have been cases of endos truly claiming these things, this is not as common as one might expect. Many of these claims are often nuanced but for the most part, are generally washed out in terms of their real context and origin (such as the origin of the word traumascum being mostly unknown by many people). This topic will be further discussed in future posts

3. - Treating the whole other community as ableist when most people are genuinely just trying to exist***

This is a nuanced topic due to how complex it is. While the pro endos community is rampant in ableism, the general population is usually just trying to exist, and are typically not engaging in syscourse or harassing unless provoked. Many argue that the concept of endogenic systems is ableist, due to the fact that the person who coined the term no longer endorses it due to its problematic nature for many (early users used this term as an act of ableism). But now, this has slightly shifted, as the number of endogenic systems rises, indicating a possible trend that is underrepresented and not researched enough. While the exact term is rooted in somewhat ableism, the concept may not (though again, this is a nuanced topic that has no definitive answer as of now). *needs more information and clarification, if anyone wants to fill in or correct me then send us an ask*

Issues within the Pro-Endo Community:

- Normalization of ableism and appropriation of CDDs

- Repeated harassment towards syscourse engagers or even just innocent bystanders

- Cultural appropriation of tulpamancy

- Using medical terms for non traumagenic plurality

- Using the word sysmed

- Encouraging the slogan “The Future Is Plural”, implying that everyone should be plural, which also implies that more people should be traumatized even if it was not the intention***

- Invading spaces and anti endo tags

***These issues have nuanced discussions about whether or not its right or wrong, and often have valid arguments from BOTH sides that need to be accounted for when deciding what the conclusion is. These topics will be discussed further in depth with reasoning below:

1. - Encouraging the slogan “The Future Is Plural”, implying that everyone should be plural, which also implies that more people should be traumatized even if it was not the intention***

This is something that most pro endos who endorse the concept don’t think much about. While this concept/slogan is done without much ill intent, it’s implications say otherwise. Implying that the “future is plural” indicates that more people should be plural. This fails to recognize that the slogan unintentionally promotes the traumatization of more people in order to make them into systems. It is unknown by us on why this slogan exists, but implying that plurality should be normalized and more apparent also implies that there should be more CDD systems, which ultimately implies that there should be more traumatized individuals. This is why this slogan is problematic. *more info and clarification needed as OP is not fully educated on this topic, this is our understanding of this slogan*

Possibility of Inaccuracy

This post is meant to highlight issues in both communities. If there are ANY inaccuracies please let us know. This post will be linked on the pinned, as it is an important list that both communities must pay attention to. This list needs updating and polishing, along with action from both communities on working together with their own to stop or fix these issues.

These issues are also written from our perspective, therefore, are subject to possible bias. If this is the case, let us know, however, you need to provide us with proper information about why it may be a biased assumption.

[ellipse-society]

Syscourse is not a war to be won. Has anyone ever thought about what winning looks like. I'm honestly curious if you know. What exactly is the desired outcome here?

A lot of the arguments thrown at each side, each identity are ones fueled by the existance of syscourse or by singlet behavior. How are the systems you are fighting simply existing truely the cause of this? How are we ever supposed to be treated with respect by singlets if we are making fools of ourselves creating further infighting in the community?

Why would DNIs made respectfully be respected when half of the community uses them as a war cry? An identification of which group must be wiped from the face of the earth.

But none of these groups will stop existing if we treat it this way. Every system will be threatened. And if you're a singlet who happens to interact with a system you are caught in the crossfire now too.

The world isn't perfect and it will never be but fighting amongst ourselves is the easy fight. It's avoiding the true enemy that creates all these problems... the society we live in... how toxic of a place the internet is.

Not every person in a specific group is your enemy. Not all of them want to cause harm(even if some have). Using an entire group as a scapegoat due to the actions of a vocal minority will never work. It will never fix the real problem. It can only make things worse.

There is a reason we don't take a side. Because the sides here are wrong. They don't fix things. In what they have devolved into both sides do harm. Both sides perpetuate the discrimination society puts on us. This is about how people in syscourse act for us not about any identity.

More can be gained by laying down your weapons and talking to those you disagree with than by the relentless attacks. Because neither side truely understands the other. Both sides perpetuate lies about the other side. Both sides fall victim to echo chambers.

This is why we talk. This is why we inform. Because a war here is not necessarily and actively hinders the goals of both sides. And to those who are respectful and open to discussion in all this we respect you for all you do. To our pro-endo and anti-endo friends we respect your right to choose a side. But those who go to war over this please think on why.

-Ember