#shes also good in batgirl 2009

[sporkberries]

I really like Barbara Gordon but sometimes reading comics with her from the 90′s and 00′s can be SO irritating... Like okay i love her as oracle and it’s her best role but DC has this tendency to sometimes make women really catty and toxic to be quirky and its so UGHHH

[mzminola]

Saw someone claim that canon Stephanie Brown has the character arc / development that "fanon [redacted]" has and buddy I hate to break it to you, but Preboot era Stephanie has the character development of a flat tire.

Stephanie starts out as a decently rounded supporting character who acts as a foil & peer to first Tim and then Cass. She's abrasive, pushy, and impulsive, which works for the narrative role she's in. She has some interesting moments of minor growth and glimpses of potential for more that unfortunately don't really go anywhere.

Then she gets screwed over by editorial's desire for grimdark edginess, dies, turns out not to be dead, and comes back having learned absolutely nothing from her mistakes (including, frankly, the mistake of thinking Bruce Wayne knows what he's doing).

Her following solo title insults other women characters to prop her up, acts like her past mistakes which got people killed are just a minor whoopsie that doesn't need to be addressed, and by the end of the run she's in the exact same narrative place she started.

I suspect if Stephanie hadn't died, or even if she'd died in a different way, she'd have continued to be a decently rounded character. Maybe she wouldn't have learned from her mistakes, but she'd have been allowed to be wrong. Maybe some of those glimpses of potential growth would have finally been followed up!

As-is, it feels like once she came back, DC didn't want to let the narrative criticize her at all, in case they be accused of victim blaming.

Which makes for a very flat character.

[welcometogrouchland]

Also in the replies of the Steph concept art on twitter announcing she was gonna be in a new project at DC (posted by Travis Mercer), there were at least 3 comments saying "will Tim be there?" I don't care how hard you ship timsteph I'm exploding you with my eyeballs if you do that on my girls post again

[casscainmainly]

POC Batfam Members Reading Guides + Starter Comics

The Batfamily has a lot of excellent POC characters, but I know comics can be hard to navigate. This list compiles the main POC Batfam members, their reading guides, and recommended runs to start out with. Not including Dick, but if you want a reading guide for him check out this one from @fantastic-nonsense (it actually covers all the Batfam members, it's a great one-stop resource!). This is not an exhaustive list by any means, so feel free to comment/add on with any additions!

Damian Wayne / Robin

The biological son of Bruce Wayne and Talia Al Ghul, Damian Wayne's character growth, complex relationships with his family, and general adorableness has endeared him to the hearts of many.

Reading list from @dailydamianwayne

Recommended starter run: Batman and Robin (2009)

Cassandra Cain / Batgirl

Raised to be an assassin, chose to become a hero. Cassandra Cain's unique abilities, stubborn personality, and amazing character journey make her one of the Batfam's most lovable characters.

Reading list from @dailycass-cain Recommended starter run: Batgirl (2000)

Duke Thomas / Signal

After his parents succumb to Joker gas and disappear, Duke Thomas throws himself into the world of vigilantism. He is beloved for his dedication to his family, unique connection to Gotham, and headstrong personality.

Reading list from @duketectivecomics

Recommended starter run: We Are Robin

Helena Bertinelli / Huntress

A child of Gotham's most powerful mafia family, Helena Bertinelli seeks vengeance after an assassin murders them. Her passion for the people she cares about, her Catholic background, and her sometimes volatile personality make her an interesting and unique beloved character.

Note: Helena was originally portrayed as White, but was retconned in Tim Seeley and Tom King's N52 Grayson run to be mixed race and/or Black. She also has an extremely messy publication history, and it's debatable whether N52/Rebirth is even the same character. She is not to be confused with Helena Wayne.

Reading list from @purpleladyofthenight

Recommended starter run: not a comic, but Justice League Unlimited's episodes "Double Date," "Grudge Match," and "Question Authority" are a great introduction. Then Huntress (1989).

Luke Fox / Batwing

The son of Wayne Enterprises CEO Lucius Fox, Luke Fox inherits the mantle of Batwing from David Zavimbe. Inducted into the Batfam during Rebirth, Luke is known and loved for his genius-level intellect, his complicated relationship with his father, and his unwavering dedication to the cause.

Reading list from @lornahs (includes David Zavimbe)

Recommended starter run: Batwing (Luke shows up in #19 onwards, but the rest is worth it too!)

Maps Mizoguchi / Robin

A student at Gotham Academy, Mia "Maps" Mizoguchi is the newest Robin on the scene! Energetic, ever-curious, and a huge Batman and Robin fan, she's a fan-favourite for a very good reason.

Reading list from @emilyarmadillo

Recommended starter run: Gotham Academy

Other characters who are Batfam adjacent include Talia Al Ghul, who I would recommend using fantastic-nonsense's reading list again, and Jace Fox, for whom you should read The Next Batman: Second Son.

POC characters are still few and far between in comics, and it's important to support the characters we already have to show DC that there is a demand for diversity. All of these characters have truly interesting stories, personalities, and character arcs, and deserve our love and support!

[roseworth]

what direction do you think they should have gone in with jason? as in where should he be now in terms of people and what he's doing

i think winick had it exactly right green arrow #69-72 and batman & robin #23-25. he was a villain but he had a Method and a Purpose. and usually that purpose was just to fuck with batman. i loooove it when hes a villain and hes very clearly doing bad things, but hes not just indiscriminately killing people. hes doing it for a reason, hes still doing the same thing he was doing in utrh by controlling the drug trade, and even when hes doing the right thing hes being an asshole about it

i especially love the ga issues because jason doesnt even talk to batman but bruce KNOWS what hes doing and he knows its about him. i love the bruce & jason post-utrh dynamic where they've both pretty much said everything they have to say and neither of them is changing their position, so now jason is just starting fires to get attention. "ok bruce you dont want to talk to me? thats fine. ill just follow you to star city then psychologically torture a teenage girl then blow her up in front of you" icon! i forgive him! i think its so fun when red hood is a member of batman's rogues gallery and bruce feels bad every time he fights him but also he kinda cant stand him since he knows jason is only doing it to mess with him and its working. but also jason is a Greater Good person so he DOES end up working with the bats sometimes just because theyre also working on the good side

anyways the ideal bruce & jason dynamic to me is "the love was there and it made everything so much worse" because jason is doing everything for bruces attention because he loves him and wants him to care about him but hes not willing to budge on his own morals and neither is bruce. and bruce loves jason so he doesnt want to arrest him or put him in danger but also hes killing people and doing terrible things and bruce is batman so he feels obligated to. yk. stop him. and as much as they both love each other they do not like each other at all

in my mind jason doesnt really care about any of the other bats besides dick & babs just because he knew them before he died so hes willing to hang out with them but they Do Not want to see him. like in brothers in blood when jason goes hiiiii dick <3 lets hang out <3333 and dick is constantly suppressing the cain instinct. he never really talks to babs pre52 i think theyre interactions would be very similar in that jason goes hey babs ur so cool <33 and she says jason get the fuck away from me or im activating the bomb in your helmet <3

but also with steph even though he didnt know her pre-death,, i think he would like her. i can imagine him doing something very similar to what he did with mia, basically finding her and going "quit your vigilante career. join my emo band" but i think she would end up being a lot more receptive to it than mia was ! like im thinking batgirl 2009 era steph so she would not be on board with the idea of joining him since things were going well with team batgirl, but i also think that any interaction between the two of them in that era would go well and end with them getting along :)

as for everyone else. i dont think he would care about any of them. theyre just kinda collateral damage in his war with bruce. like he gets involved with them sometimes just because of their proximity to bruce, or like i said earlier that he works with them sometimes because he cares about the greater good so is willing to help them when necessary. also honorable mention to aoifa's headcanon that jason doesnt actually know tims name because he just does not care. thats canon to me

so yeah in conclusion: he should be a morally grey villain that does what he does either for the greater good, or to fuck with batman, or both. and he has complicated relationships with all of them bc he likes bruce dick and babs but also kinda hates all of them and they like but also hate him too. and the rest of them he doesn't really give a shit about

[fancyfade]

2009 era Damian reading

As I've been doing my 2009 era Damian reading, I'm trying to condense the good stuff and bad stuff, and things I believe are relevant for his character. These are in addition to what I assume is obvious (Batman and Robin 2009, the comic where he has a starring role).

Battle for the Cowl: this has how Damian becomes Robin. It's not necessarily good. Daniels really does not understand Damian, especially this early in his writing, but it does have some important context for things going down b/c Damian helps Squire save Tim's life, and we can see Dick viewing training Damian as something he is responsible for.

Secret Origins (2014) #4: This is a much more in character Damian becoming Robin, though fit for a condensed new 52 timeline that leaves some stuff out (like Damian's rocky intro with Bruce).

Batman #688 (Long Shadows part 1): Winick seems one of the early writers who does a Damian as he lines up with later characterization (views himself more as a professional assassin), so I think this one's good.

Batman: streets of Gotham #1-6: damian makes some minor appearances here.

Batgirl #5-7: Always take Damian's guest-starring stuff with a grain of salt, as often times writers just go with "how would an obnoxious 10 year old boy act here" without understanding he's a specific kind of obnoxious 10 year old boy... that said I do like some of his interactions with Steph, and I think it's incredibly important that we see Damian defends his competence based on his training, not on his blood.

Like he'll sometimes justify why he belongs based on his blood (which like... no one acts like they want him around), but he isn't going around saying "I'm better than you b/c I'm batman's son". he was trained intensely since birth (and that's why he should say he's better than you :P)

Batman #692-697: not a ton of Damian in this, and it is Daniel's writing, but he's a little better than he was in Battle for the Cowl. We see Dick training Damian some.

Batman: Streets of Gotham #7, #10-#11: love this plotline for him. Good show of competence and characterization.

Blackest night: batman: More focused on Tim and Dick, and Tomasi sucks at writing Babs, but at there is some Damian content that I remember enjoying.

Red Robin #11-15: as long as you read this one with your brain turned on, it's good for explaining some Tim and Damian stuff. Sadly some fans are like "woooo arrogant 10 year old gets beat up". Nicieza makes some missteps (frames Tim's thinking around Damian as coldly logical, when it is anything but and he is reacting from a place of emotion), but one can ignore those.

Batman #703: shows Damian's character pretty well in a default Batman and Robin adventure, and his relationship (or lackthereof) with Bruce and his dynamic with Dick and Alfred

Teen Titans #88-92 (including Red Robin #20 in a crossover plot): surprised by how well I liked this one. I think it portrays Damian pretty fairly, and we can see that he is trying hard, but hasn't been given a lot of support up until now (or even now, Dick kind of just drops him off with a bunch of older kids who all also have issues and are predisposed to disliking him XD). His dynamic with rose is fun and I think it is notable how quickly he does acquiesce to following Cassie's orders when she's like (at first) the only Teen Titan who is OK with him being there and assures him its not personal when she makes a comment he doesn't like.

Bruce Wayne: The Road Home: Batman and Robin: Has some nice Dick and Damian banter, showcases how they've worked together well

Batgirl #17: more damian and steph interactions.

I will probably add more (either editing this post or in a reblog) as I keep reading.

[punkeropercyjackson]

Genuine advice for people who joined the Batfam fandom because of fan content and are too scared to get into actual comics or not sure where to start:Please don't buy a single word 'Fuck canon!' people tell you about ANY Batfam member and i do mean ANY.They're lying to you to get you to sanatize them and deprive you of deserving to know what they're actually like because their peabrains can't process multilayered characters and relathionships in favor of bigoted stereotypes and writing that's insanely insulting to them and if you're a minor especially,they're lying to you about whatever they say about shipping the male members with eachother not being in*cest or ped0 too-Bruce has been Dick's adoptive dad since Dick's debut issue,he legally adopted Jason and Duke too,Damian's his bio kid and with Tim it's a bit more complicated but it's very much canon that they see eachother as father and son and Tim has lived at Wayne Manor at several points in canon and would be brothers regardless of anything else due to this but they also use that exact word to describe their dynamic and so does everybody else

This applies to Cass being their sister too because Bruce adopted her after they formed a dad-daughter bond a while into her being Batgirl but as Stephanie has a mom she lives with and has never seen Bruce as a parental figure nor he her as one of his kids,you're freegame to ship her with Tim or Cass and in fact i highly encourage doing both.Batfanon stans are once again doing mass lying(damn they should get a different hobby)by saying the four male Robins are the 'core' ones.Stephanie has been included in Robin stuff for a long time now and Duke dosen't get the same treatment due to antiblackness so THAT'S an actual 'Fuck canon!' moment so you should make it six Robins and know that the intention with only four is always misogyny and whitewashing(also just saying but those fanarts are always ugly anyway,they make them look like shitty anime boys instead of themselves)

Dick is an almost perfect eldest sibling and the other Batkids deeply appreciate him for it,he was Tim's Robin and him and Cass are his favorite siblings,Duke is Jason's favorite brother and vice versa but he's also extremely close to Cass,none of them make Damian go through 'normal youngest sibling treatment' because none of them are normal so they grew a sense of basic decency and Damian's closest to Dick and Stephanie and Stephanie's a canon csa victim so kindly keep your paws off her with your 'date all of your s/os siblings' jokes because she has self-worth and class,thanks

Ignore the original Red Hood and The Outlaws run and anything to do with Jason and Roy friendship in fandom and read the original Teen Titans run,New Teen Titans,Arsenal 1998,The Titans 1999,Green Arrow 2001 and Outsiders 2003 if you want to understand Roy too or at least ask around blogs centered on him for context.Ignore Tom Taylor's Nightwing run and Teen Titans 2003 and Batgirl of Burnside and anything by Devin Grayson(she's quite literally done irreperable damage to Batman lore and i wish i was kidding).Read Robin 1993,90s Young Justice,Batgirl 2000,Batgirl 2009,Red Robin,Son of Batman and literally everything Duke's in which i can provide a reading list for instead and i'm working on a megapost of all the Jason media that's actually good so new fans don't waste their time.I'm genuinely saying this to be helpful because 'fandom isn't activism' is a puratical priviliged phrase that should've never existed just like Batfanon shouldn't either

[armed-with-a-waffle-iron]

Stephanie Brown & Kara Zor-El: Queer-Coding💖💜💙

Batgirl (2009) #14 is one of the gayest comics I've ever read, bless Bryan Q. Miller.

That "Oh, hey." was gay as fuck. Secret identity to hide from mom = her bisexuality💖💜💙. Lucky thing Kara was able to get changed so quickly because her mom "has no idea she's bi Batgirl".

Also that "Can Stephanie come out to play" vs "You girls stay out of trouble" is far from subtle bro.

Their little date then which went from watch a movie to actually hunting vampires.

"You know how to show a girl a good time..."🥰

cuts to Steph's BEDROOM, both of them having cleaned themselves up. The poster on the wall reads “the dating” too.

"We're not as doomed as Dracula said." "I know. Just feels that way sometimes."

AHHH. That's so painfully gay and just painful. They're so definitely more than just best friends but it's all so complicated; their lives are pretty incongruent plus their little nightly adventures are a secret.

At least, they make that deal to give each other a call when they "feel alone" and "don't have criminals to hero at" and the literal US isn't out for their heads and it's presumably nighttime... I wonder what fun they'll get up to🤷‍♀️.

"Did you have a good time with your friend?" "The BEST."

AAAAHHHH. They deserve the world ok?

Also don't worry, Steph's mom found out that she's bisexual Batgirl, and she accepts her. Yay!!!

Inspired by @eggplantwaffles's posts.

[mysterycitrus]

Thinking about Jim, do you think he also gets this good cop good father protection because of Barbara Gordon's admiration of him? Reading it from Barbara's perspective like all her stories have Jim Gordon as the best dad and her wanting to be a cop or as a child being the gcpd little cheerleader. Like trying to tie that with her role as Oracle but then even thinking of like The Hill where Jim shot and killed a teenager and his response to the mother was that the kid was armed like... it is hard to think that she would have that blind admiration of him. I also think she is more willing to work with morally questionable characters since she has a history of working with those types of characters. What do you think DC needs to do with Barbara Gordon to get actual interest in her again?

the solution for babs is simple — she needs to be oracle again.

no ifs whens or buts — babs being batgirl again is such a spectacular downgrade from her time as oracle it’s almost unreal. babs as a character, her growth after being shot, her rediscovery and pursuit of her own autonomy, her vindictiveness, her need for control, her relationships with the birds and wendy and cass and steph, make her an infinitely richer and more interesting character than when she wears the cowl. that’s even ignoring the ableist rhetoric behind her “reclaiming” her power by getting an implant and leaving her chair, which like, vom, because it’s a whole other can of worms.

unlike batwoman where there’s a completely different identity and mantle that’s seperate from bruce, batgirl is unequivocally the subordinate to batman. the girl denotes her lack of authority. cass and helena come the closest to shaking this off, but it’s still a very deliberate character dynamic that dc upholds. batgirl 2009 also successfully orients the mantle around babs and steph, but a large part of that is that bruce isn’t present in the story.

babs was at least two years older than dick in the original canon. she was a librarian who had a life outside of the community. she was a support for other disabled women. she’d tell bruce to shut the fuck up to his face. she was singularly the most important resource to the league and all other hero teams. she was a complicated person with a lot of trauma, not the cool girlfriend archetype. i also dislike that she’s dating dick while he’s nightwing and she’s still batgirl. imagine if they made dick robin again and had him date babs as oracle. it’d be so weird!

wrt jim gordon— a lot of babs’s unequivocal support of him comes from dc’s general inability to admit that he’s a deeply flawed human being in a position of power. the narrative rarely actually criticises him over his decisions. however, i also think people forget that like…. a lot of babs’s politics is tied up with the police. she’s essentially a one woman surveillance state, and she historically struggles with boundaries around the people she loves. she does work with people that the other bats wouldn’t — isley, waller, etc, but i don’t think that necessarily separates her from the police because often the police or armed forces do the same thing. her modus operandi is also very similar to bruce in a lot of ways too.

in saying that tho, i do appreciate that she’s willing to just say fuck it, full throttle and getting a god damned law degree to bust bruce out of a murder charge. she’s an icon. let her be cunty again!!

[cuephrase]

Of the DC comics you've read so far, what would be your top recommendations for people to check out/what have you enjoyed the most?

when i tell you i have been thinking about this all day- i have been thinking about this. all. day.

so disclaimer, as of writing this, i have only read 31 runs from start to finish and 18 arcs/events outside of those runs. on top of, everything i've read so far has been strictly robin-centric, so dick, jason, tim, and damian. (i have read all of steph's robin appearances lol, but i haven't gotten to reading material for her, like say batgirl 2009, yet.) i've also decided not to rec from any run i'm currently reading, so for example, you won't see any batman: gotham knights recs here. because i'm most well-read on the robins, i'm only going to rec for them.

also, i'm going to operate under the following assumption: you've got a basic knowledge of the robins. none of these are where i would necessarily recommend anyone start reading about the boys, but i do think they'd be pretty interesting if you're already somewhat familiar with them and don't want to commit to reading whole character backlogs. does that make sense? i hope that makes sense.

alright, let's do this!

DICK GRAYSON

oh god. this one is actually so hard because he has so much great stuff, but then also i have like a love/frustrate relationship with so much of it. like for instance, i really enjoyed The New Teen Titans, but also lowkey can't stand space adventures so whenever that went down i was like 😀👍. but okay. hmmmm.

i have two preboot recs, with explanations + caveats.

devin grayson's mob!dick arc, so Nightwing 1996 #99-100, 107-117. caveats: it doesn't really get to finish playing out/wraps up weird because of editorial changes/infinite crisis. but!! it's a super interesting look at how dick handles...failure. how he values himself in light of that failure.

tomasi's run, but specifically #147-153. (listen, i love the dick and tim moments in 'freefall' but the whole eternally pregnant lady thing was too weird.) this is classic, hyper-competent dick, okay? he's such a bad-ass. and an idiot- bro literally flops his severely injured ass over the bars of his glider and rides it UNCONSCIOUS back to the batcave. i can't with him. poor alfred. anyways, he deals with two-face, always a good time. and then at the end, as a treat, he cries because bruce is dead. so fun!! what was my caveat here? oh yeah, he has a girlfriend. i don't remember her name, she serves like...very little purpose, the whole relationship is very minor/background okay, but like it was so unnecessary. he can be single, dc, it's okay.

for post re-boot, just read tom taylor's run!! it's the best thing ever!! zero complaints!!

HA. yeah, just kidding. that run is very like/frustrate for me lol. oh man i'm struggling here. it's not all bad okay, i'm just really picky, and i haven't re-read any nightwing n52 and onwards since my first foray into comics (8 months ago) so my memories of these are the foggiest and i'm not sure how i feel about all of it in light of what i've read now. yk what, i'm just going to...not rec anything. sorry!!

JASON TODD

his comics either go so hard or they're absolute ass, why is there no in between. istg, i can't figure out why writers struggle with him so much?? well. i mean, i do have theories. but you didn't ask for those!

pre-boot:

detective comics #569-574. robin!jason in the hands of writers who like him is so much fun. which, don't get me wrong, i don't flat-out hate how starlin writes him, but i think you get a more well-rounded view of jason as robin when you also see him in 'tec. jason and bruce tangle with the joker, scarecrow, + mad hatter, and all of those adventures are...idk if they were intentional foreshadowing okay, but reading those and knowing where the story goes? oof. especialllllly #574. caveat: #572 is pretty light on jason, but he is great when he's on panel!

reboot:

probably a very basic answer but rhato rebirth (2016) #1-13, annual #1. i abhorred n52 rhato so i almost skipped rhato rebirth since it was still written by lobdell, but i'm really glad i didn't. i really enjoy jason's relationship with bizarro + artemis, but especially with bizarro because i think jason struggles a lot with feeling like a doomed creation, so yk, parallels. i want to say more but i know i'll get too wrapped up in discussing jason so i'm just going to stop myself.

i actually really enjoyed task force z, too. i think about tfz #8 so much, jason is such a manipulative little shit and i love it. he's so- i can't. i can't get into this rn, it deserves its own post(s).

overall for jay, i need people to read something other than utrh/lost days/b:ul 1-6. i love those, i do, but they aren't the only good pieces of jason content!!

TIM DRAKE

MY BELOVED!!!!!!!!!! in my heart of hearts, i just want to rec his whole robin run lmao. dick was my intro, okay, he is why i decided to start reading comics, but tim, specifically his robin solo is why i'm still reading comics. hooked me fr. and young justice 1998, ugh love. but it has been a minute since i read these as well, so hmm. okay okay okay

pre-boot:

batman: prodigal. short version, tim is robin to dick's batman. super fun. there's a solid amount of dick and bruce angsting too, which, love. tim is honestly just thrilled that jpv is out of the batsuit and even happier to working with dick. very cute.

robin #46. listen. they're all superheroes okay, they all feel pressure to save people. but tim...losses get to him. the amount of times that he gets shoved to a breaking point and then...gets back up. keeps going. *screams*. anyways!! this is not tim getting back up, okay? this is him being shoved way, way down. it's so good.

teen titans 2003 #20. tim's dad has died. he shows up for his weekend at the tower anyways. he is not okay. that's it, that's the pitch. i did not like...mmm at least 80% of this run okay, but a few of the issues HIT and this was one imo.

reboot:

*deep sigh*. look. tim is not tim for like basically all of n52, although there are moments here and there were he feels like himself. i did not like his 2023 solo, the best parts of young justice 2019 imo are the character designs, (except for his drake costume, what was that omg), and i haven't read any rebirth batman/'tec yet. except for zdarsky's run. which. tim is good there! but yeah, not really a whole lot of material to work with + very limited reading experience atm.

DAMIAN WAYNE

god, i love this kid. nature vs. nurture fascinates me, and so much of his story digs into that on top of trying to figure out who he is apart from all of that. i will say, i'm not a huge talia fan and by that i mean, i have no idea who she is "supposed" to be, like i have no frame of reference for that atm, so if you are a huge talia fan these recs might not hit for you because from what i've observed from her fans she is not well portrayed a whole lot since becoming his mother? i think one of the things that is normal is dick absolutely disliking her though, which cracks me up. there's this older batman story (batman #322-335) where bruce works with talia and dick goes running to selina and i was so entertained. what were we talking about? oh! damian!

preboot:

batman and robin 2009 #10-12. damian is struggling, with a lot of things. the fact that bruce might be alive, what that means for him and dick, and his mother's puppeteering. there's this line that kills me: "can't you just love me for who i am? not what you want me to be?" and the thing that gets me, is the use of who vs. what. because he could have said, "not who you want me to be", but he doesn't

reboot:

batman: shadow war. this is post-alfred's death, and honestly, most damian stuff post city of bane is pretty juicy, but there's this specific moment in shadow war: alpha #1 that had me speechless. just like 😧 i love bruce, but that man has some of the most chronic foot-in-mouth disease. oh but fair warning, for whatever reason they don't draw dami's mask connecting?? it's so- it drives me nuts.

JUST FOR FUN

these are just two issues that i enjoy for the brother content!

nightwing 1996 #25. dick and tim's relationship makes me ILL. *ahem*. this issue is mostly just super cute and fun, (there's like 0.2 seconds of angst when tim asks dick if he ever thinks about jason 😭) and i adore it sm. fun fact, it's actually one of the first comics i ever bought!

batman 2016 #16. unfortunately, tim is not here for this, but duke is! jason and damian's interactions in the background of bruce's Very Serious Speech are excellent. bruce is so dramatic and his kids are so unserious.

what i've most enjoyed

i've enjoyed the majority of what i've read, even titles/events i wasn't particularly looking forward to but had on my tbr for whichever character. i'm going to break down most enjoyed into two catergories, arcs that i loved top to bottom and then the guilty pleasures. this is not an exhaustive list, just what immediately came to mind.

top to bottom

bruce wayne: murderer?/fugitive. shocker, ik. but it's just, it's just so frickin good. i've said before, and i'll say it again, gotham war could NEVER. this right here is peak batfamily drama. the tension? the mystery? the angst? i knew nothing going into this okay, and truth be told, when i started it i was like "oh joy. another event." because i was just trying to read the 1996 nightwing run, but i'd committed to reading in full all the events it crossed over with. but i was invested so quickly. and like, i loved how the narrative supported the possibility that bruce was the murderer, because like, you know there's no way, but the more that comes out the more damning it is, and so you're like really dying to know what actually happened and i feel like the reveal was satisfying.

batman: city of bane. i'm going to cautiously put this here, because there might have been something i didn't like but i cannot recall it for the life of me right now. something about me is i love when the heroes lose. infinity war, empire strikes back? love. and ik bruce takes back gotham, but they lose alfred, okay, they lost. i also didn't expect to like this arc, i decided to read it because i wanted to know how alfred died. and first of all, i was shocked, even though i knew it was coming because i expected it to like happen towards the end. but nope. just *snap*. and then later when bruce is back in the manor and is confronted with alfred's body and his good-bye message? oh. my. god. i was bawling. despite my penchant for sad narratives, i don't tend to cry that much, but this got to me so bad. like i had to pause because i couldn't see. amazing.

red robin. his cowl is so ugly, but i really do love the run. i see a lot of discourse about it and also a lot of...interesting fanfic takes, so i don't really talk about it a lot here because it feels like most people are kind of tired of hearing about this run, which fair. i really enjoyed it as a sequel to his solo robin run. tbh, i almost put this in the guilty pleasure catergory, because there are a couple things i don't totally love, but like if the others are 10/10, this is 9/10.

young justice 1998. i love this comic so, so much. i don't even know what to say, i get so overwhelmed with joy when i think about this comic. nothing has hit the same way with this group since either, which is a crime. i need a title with this team so badly.

guilty pleasures

these are all runs/events i know some/most? people cannot stand and i totally get why, and i have problems with them, so i'm probably never going to rec them in good conscience but also like i can't lie and say i don't like them. these are not recs, okay? okay.

robin war. is it a hot mess? yes. but there is not a whole lot of canon content out there with all the boys working together, okay? so much of that event had me banging my head into a wall, but for me, there were a handful of pearls in there. i mean honestly, if i listed out pros and cons the cons list would be way longer but those pros are very precious to me.

batman and robin: eternal. very similar reasoning overall to robin war. plus cass finally came back!! i missed her. i love robin!dick and batman content, and the kids working together. this is probably my least favorite guilty pleasure though, okay, it's on thin ice.

grayson. listen, i love janin's art sm. i'm pretty neutral about spy stuff, so like i don't engage with it a whole lot. meaning, although i've heard it's tropey af in regards to the genre, i'm not familiar enough with the genre to be like trying to dig my eyeballs out with blunt spoons at the cliche of it all. the constant sexualization of dick got old super fast, and her name may have been helena but she wasn't- my list of dislikes is lengthy. but idk, i had fun with it. and imo it does have some genuinely great moments, i love dick in the desert with the baby, the ache i felt when dick wanted to come home and couldn't get ahold of bruce, issue #12 stabs me in the heart- the dick and dami reunion? stoppppp. i feel like this run and the ric grayson era are dick's most out there lmao

so yeah!! thank you so much for this ask, i had sm fun answering it. if you have any recs for me, feel free to drop them :)

[zahri-melitor]

Playing with Tim's preboot schooling timeline again:

7th Grade (12): Tim is at an unnamed boarding school. By my own timeline Jason dies in April close to the end of this school year.

(Tim turns 13 and Jason turns 15 over the summer. Fight me on Jason dying at 14 and 9 months, it's the best way to make his listed death date of 27 April work with the rest of the timeline and known birth dates)

8th Grade (13): Tim starts the year at an unnamed boarding school, becomes Robin. At some point after Haiti he is transferred to a local public school for the remainder of the year, while Jack is in hospital.

Note: this ‘year’ covers 1988-1992 in comics, and a good chunk of it is buried in ‘Bruce mourning Jason’ and ‘time Tim spends training’.

9th Grade (14): Tim starts at Gotham Heights High School, which is on the mainland near Bristol not Gotham proper, prior to Robin II. Tim remains at Gotham Heights High for the school year, until early No Man's Land where Jack looks at having Tim study from home in Keystone until they settle in.

Tim then spends the summer holidays and up to Christmas in No Man's Land, turning 15 there.

10th Grade (15): Tim is enrolled at Brentwood Academy from January to close to the end of the school year.

Tim has to take a 10th grade equivalency test over the summer in Robin #107 to prove he's at an educational standard to be enrolled in 11th grade after the holidays. Following this Tim turns 16 over the summer and has moved to live in Gotham proper.

Notes: the real reason Tim probably had to take this test is due to his schooling disruption from No Man's Land, unless Brentwood is not considered to be an accredited school.

11th Grade (16): Tim starts the year at Louis E. Grieve Memorial High School, but within a month War Games happens and he subsequently moves to Bludhaven, where he enrols at John Wayne High School for a couple of days before dropping out completely. Tim spends the rest of this school year living in Bludhaven and then on the world trip with Dick & Bruce.

Tim turns 17.

12th Grade (17): Tim is enrolled in Gotham City High School by Bruce on their return to Gotham. Tim completes part of the school year there, but drops out before graduation.

Noted oddity: Prior to Tim dropping out in the last few issues of Robin, Steph is also at Gotham City High, despite traditionally being considered a year ahead of him, and Steph starting at Gotham University in Reborn.

Way to resolve this: Steph spent at least 6 months studying from home during her pregnancy AND at least 18 months in Africa at Leslie's Aid camp. When she got back to Gotham Crystal enrolled her back in high school while Steph completed applications for university and had whatever schooling she received while in Africa transferred. Steph started at Gotham University as a mid-year entry given the disruption in her education.

Alternately, Tim 'dropping out of school' was him missing the last few weeks of 12th Grade and not officially graduating as he took off to look for Bruce. Steph then proceeded to start university a year 'late' at the start of the academic year in Batgirl 2009. However, this explanation would place Tim at 18 years of age for Red Robin, while we know he was still 17 as of Red Robin #12.

[celaenaeiln]

is the dickbabs romantic relationship always as bad as in Tom Taylor’s run or is it actually enjoyable in other runs? i want to read more of dick’s og nightwing run but ik dickbabs is a recurring thing and i strongly dislike what i’ve seen of it in modern comics (absolutely no offense to anyone who ships it!!)

also sort of related, but have dick and babs really been BFFs since grade school or is that new canon? i remember the initial new 52 run referencing him and babs as on and off but nothing about being childhood besties.

finally- what would you consider to be key dick grayson runs?

Surprisingly Dickbabs is pretty nice to read in other runs. I know this sounds weird coming from someone who hates Dickbabs as a ship but really it's only bad like 85% of the time and the majority of that is because of the Batgirl comics. Batgirl comics treat Dick like shit and it's a losing tossup whether he's treated well in Oracle related comics.

But to get to your point, Dickbabs in Nightwing (1996) was originally pretty good. Tom Taylor's run of Nightwing is the weird one because in every other run you have Dick + relationships whereas in Taylor's you have relationships + Dick. That being said, I highly, highly recommend reading the og one. At one point it does get toxic but Barbara leaves almost immediately after that and aside from that the ship was pretty nice for the most part.

Dick and Barbara have NOT been BFFS since childhood or whatever and this gets on my nerves that Tom Taylor and Hope Larson did that. This is one of the problems I have with the Dickbabs ship. Writers who write them love changing the story to erase Dick's friendships with the Titans. They literally love to pretend Wally, Donna, Roy, and Garth don't exist. BARBARA IS NOT HIS CHILDHOOD BEST FRIEND!! They literally keep deaging her and for what?? First she was like two decades older than him, then she's five years older than him, and now she's the same age?? Just let her be older! Barbara being the same age as Dick makes no sense because it takes away her maturity to turn her into this childish, selfish character she has no business being. She's not even enjoyable when she's deaged this far. I'm still on the she's 5 to 6 years older than Dick canon timeline and there is no way she was childhood besties with him.

The way I picture Dick and Barbara's relationship is this:

DC should've just let it at this, this was peak Dick and Barbara relationship.

Very narrow starting out list but some must read Dick Grayson runs are:

Nightwing (1996) - If you don't feel like reading anything else just read this

Nightwing (2016) - Really good up until Tom Taylor's run

Batman: Gotham Knights - pretty good and lots of cute Tim and Dick!

Titans (1999) - This is a must read if you're not interested in the original Teen Titans comics

Outsiders (2003) - Love him so much in this

JLA/Titans - Important for understanding his relationships with Titans and Batman

Nightwing (2011)

Justice League (2011) Issue #25 and Forever Evil - Same arc

Batman: Prelude to the Wedding: Nightwing vs. Hush

Robin era

Batman - One Bad Day: Mr. Freeze - If you want to skip the medal ages but still want to know what Dick was like as Robin, this comic is all you need to understand his character and personality and beliefs.

Batman Chronicles: The Gauntlet - Dick's gauntlet test!

Robin: Year One - For fun :)

Dick!Bats era

Batman: Battle for the Cowl - To get into Dick's batman

Batman (1940) Issues #682 to #713 - Batman Dick. Incredible. Dick was such a good batman and so fun to read.

Batman and Robin (2009) - Dick and Dami!

Batman: Streets of Gotham - Also Dick and Dami <3

Justice League of America (2006) Issues #41 to #60- Dick leading his own JLA team as Batman! SO FUN!!

Detective Comics (1937) Issue #864 to #881 - Honestly Batman Dick was so good I can't tell if I like Dick more as Nightwing or Batman. Obviously it's better for his mental health if he's nightwing but he just did such a great job as Batman.

Spy era

Grayson - YESSSS. Just everything about this.

Batman and Robin Eternal - It was really good up until near the end but then it got better again

Dark Crisis - Definitely, without a doubt, no question

Additional: The ones above are focused on him but if you finish reading this then Tim's Robin (1993) Comic is a fantastic one. He doesn't appear in every single issue but he appears a lot and it's a lot of Dick and Tim characterization. Also Teen Titans (2003) for more Dick and Titans relationships.

[dailycass-cain]

Birds of Prey #12 brings the Cass action to the forefront!

It also gets me something I always wanted to see: Sophie Campbell drawing Cass. But it comes-- with a TWIST!!

We're nearing the end point of this arc, and we get the craziest issue yet of the world hoping. This time the Birds getting "toonnified".

And that is "the twist"

Since I first saw her work on IDW TMNT. I always wanted to see Sophie Campbell draw Cass. Well wish granted this issue. But it's an utterly adorable Cass.

Though, what shall we call this Cass version? Toon Cass? Cass Toon? No wait that one is taken. 🤪

Anyhoot, this toon world feels honestly the most fleshed out of them all. Like it felt there was this underlying unease with each world the Birds visited.

Here this is the first one that feels like a world onto itself. I wonder where this will go with the "final world" teased at the end.

Even though, last issue Cass was put on the back burner, this issue she gets A LOT of focus. So much so I believe this issue she has more dialogue than the prior ELEVEN issues!

Even with all this Cass, all the Birds get a moment this issue. Barda and Vixen get absolute banger moments this issue and their toon designs are just perfection. Likewise so does Sin, and even Babs. Everyone gets something this issue.

And it all starts with Cela walking out, and Cass following. Now I now there was A LOT of shippers jumping onto the two this issue.

So let's dissect the real bonding, and maybe-- it can go to be more?

Writer Kelly Thompson has touched on many dimensions to Cass in the series thus far. Here she digs into the core of Cass: compassion.

A few issues ago, we learned Cela's origins, and last issue put it on the back burner, but this issue we get the forefront as she knows the Birds reunited that time is almost up with her newfound companions and the hope of being free from this prison.

I think Cass can really relate to Cela. That she's stuck in this world, and really is trying to be good despite the world wanting otherwise. Not to mention losing A LOT of sisters?

It sounds FAMILAIR doesn't it?

think Cass relates a lot to Cela and is trying to break that ice with her being there for her. She can see how her body is screaming for someone to vent with.

And well... we get the scene between the two.

Now as to WHY people are jumping on this ship bandwagon so much? Well, when was the last time Cass had an honest to god love interest in the main DCU?

You could say Stephanie Brown (Batgirls 2021-2023). Or... Harper Row (2016).

But if we're going to her honest-to-goodness CONFIRMED she's interested in?

It was Sal from Batgirl Vol. 2 (2009).

It's been THAT long since Cassandra Cain had a CONFIRMED love interest.

I think fan interest in wanting Cass to get SOME loving is WHY we're at this point. The girl deserves it. Though personally I see ANOTHER option (if not Harper), who just happens to show up this issue too.

So I get WHY many shipping vibes are there for Cass/Cela.

But the rest of the issue is Cass coming up with a plan to FINALLY be free while also dealing with Maia problem too.

And here we get our SECOND bit of Cass in the issue.

This and a few other reaction images are so getting memed by us Cass fans. I know it.

But yeah it's a nice "character progression" from someone who told a "bad story" in #1 to now coming up with a good plan in #12.

And the plan even involves a homage to what Sophie Campbell is most famous for. 😁😁😁

You thought I wouldn't notice the streams crossed did ya? BUT I DID!

Birds of Prey #12 is an emotional ride but with a toony twist. It has such a glorious cute edge this issue. And this world with the Birds REALLY clicked. I've gone back to reading this issue more over than the prior bits of this arc.

I feel there's nothing more to say than I'm REALLY curious where this all goes next issue and how this will tie into the Spirit World?

I guess we'll see. Other than, I'm curious what your thoughts are on Cass/Cela?

And are you surprised it's been THAT LONG Cass had a love interest?

*this is me now waiting for comments*

[victimsofyaoipoll]

Round 2

Propaganda Under Cut

Iris West

Treated terribly by fandom because of racism and misogyny

Iris is one of the oldest Flash characters (well, oldest by measure of the Silver Age Flash) and despite the show's problems she was adapted pretty well. Her being pushed aside 100% has to do with her being Black in the adaptation. The most popular ship on Ao3 for that show is her white husband x a white passing supervillain clearly intended to be read as actually white who has been in LITERALLY ~SIX EPISODES. He DIED IN 2016. THEY ARE STILL DOING THIS

Gets mom friended like you wouldn't BELIEVE. People hate her because she was childhood best friends with The Flash and has chemistry with him :( like it's her fault she's sweet and smart and not the male blue coded villain to the red hero. I am so tired

Stephanie Brown

Literally my best friend ever!!! Every time she shows up in a comic I point at her and smile!!! She’s the vigilante known as spoiler & batgirl & was a robin before getting fridged because of editorial mandate and misogyny she deserves so much better @_@. The m/m that some people hate her for is timkon; like they ARE very gay but people are genuinely insane about hating her instead of also realizing that she too is gay (insane amount of subtext w her bff cass). Basically she was Tim’s girlfriend for a long time on and off. People will literally call her abusive for no reason they’ll be like oh but she didn’t apologize for starting a gang war accidentally and faced no consequences for it :/ as if she wasn’t literally KILLED OFF BRUTALLY. And although hate is rarer for her nowadays from what I’ve seen she’s also a victim of Background Lesbian Syndrome. And also a victim of Woman Not Allowed To Have Ocmplex Feelings in the source material itself (tim is canonically bi now yay but like steph wasn’t allowed to have any complicated feelings at all at her on again off again ex breaking up with her for good???). Anyways she’s the light of my life.

she’s the light of my life my baby girl my everything. she canonically dated tim drake, but people love to ship tim with his male friend kon or his male brothers (🤢🤮) and so they constantly sideline her, making her the quirky wingwoman or sometimes even villainizing her by trying to claim she was abusive to tim. i don’t know why so many people hate her my girl will literally just be standing there and people will hate on her.

Stephanie was first introduced in the 1994 Robin series as a side love interest for Robin, but when she turned out to be really popular she became the main love interest. Because of this, she was fully fleshed out as a vigilante calling herself Spoiler to try and take down her villainous father, the Cluemaster. She later grew a lot closer to other cast members, such as Batgirl and Oracle, to get herself a firmly established place among the bats. Then, she dies in a gang war after taking up the Robin mantle. Eventually, in 2009, she was brought back from the dead and took on the Batgirl mantle. Her and Robin get back together sometime around ~2010 and they are solidly together until 2021. Then, Robin breaks up with her off panel for zero reason in canon, only to date some really boring guy named Bernard. By fanon, she's often demonized and turned into an abuser to make either this ship, or a lot of other mlm ships happen. Either that or things are mysteriously set in the time she's dead despite characters who were not yet introduced until she returned appearing. strange.

[casscainmainly]

How do you think cass is like as a big sister? Considering she’s like the second oldest sibling in the batfam

I think her big sistering is VERY dependent on the sibling. The person she's the best older sibling for is probably Duke, given that she's had the most time getting used to being a sister, and they have the most drama-free and cute relationship. She adores him and fully embraces her role as his older sister, and he adores her in return!

Tim is the second best sister-brother relationship. They didn't start out as siblings which makes some of their early interactions... um... un-sibling-like (see Tim's reaction to her in Babs' Batgirl suit), but after that initial bump they get along very well and trust each other implicitly (see Batgirl (2008) and Red Robin (2009)). She's not exactly an older sister to him, though, since they act much more like equals; and their differing opinions on Bruce/Batman sometimes drive a wedge between them. Very sibling-coded to argue over your dad, though.

Damian is a bit weird for her. He has a lot in common with her, but in some ways their experiences are complete opposites - he was raised to think of himself as important, while Cass was raised to think of herself as a tool. In Gates of Gotham, Cass does earn Damian's trust, but she doesn't really wanna deal with him and explicitly is like 'yeah Tim he's your problem'. I think they avoid each other, honestly, and when they do interact it's cordial but not close. She doesn't do much big sistering for him and they're both fine with that.

Last but not least is our favourite dead boy Jason Todd. Cass definitely lords her 'older' status over him, but not her 'sister' status so much; they are the least close to each other of maybe any pairing in the Batfam. They are also two of the most abrasive personalities in the family, so besides the morality stuff they just don't like each other. The 'big sistering' here is more of the insults, snide comments, fist-fighting variety. Duke is the only person both would hold a truce for, and that is very tenuous.

So overall she's like a 5/10 older sister, which is honestly impressive for someone who spent the majority of her life heavily isolated. If you asked her four younger brothers if she was a good sister, Duke and Tim would say yes, Damian would say she's okay, and Jason would tell you to go to hell.

[fantastic-nonsense]

so what about the dick and steph sorting?

@teleportationmagic yes! Steph was easy, at least for me.

She brought a war to her father and then discovered a passion for the superhero lifestyle. She's intensely driven, with a deep-seated need to ensure justice is served. She's resilience. She's resolve. She's fiercely protective of her own autonomy and filled with stubborn determination in the face of everyone telling her no. She's got a mission and she'll carry it out regardless of the obstacles in her way. No matter the horrors and setbacks, no matter what everybody tells her, no matter the judgements passed on her abilities, and no matter what she promised in her darkest moments, she'll be out there fighting, both because of her genuine desire to help people and for the sheer love of the life.

“Fight or flight…I choose fight. -Batgirl (2009) #2

She's a daughter of Ares.

Dick was....harder. My first instinct was to make him a son of Apollo. But that didn't quite work, the more I thought about it. There were too many instances of me having to warp Dick to fit the role I wanted him to fill instead of the other way around. But Hermes felt right. Hermes is the god with the most versatile and diverse set of domains, which not only fits with Dick's jack of all trades skillset but also with his specific set of life circumstances.

Hermes is the patron of travellers and roads. Dick rarely stays in one place for long; constantly rotating between Gotham, Bludhaven, and wherever the Titans are headquartered are about as stable as he gets. He's also a natural athlete and a born showman, making him a perfect fit for the god of athletes and athletic competition. And I'd never pass up an opportunity to remind people that Dick is a gearhead who loves to tinker and make his own gear, a fun side interest that's adjacent to Hermes' domain as the god of invention.

But more importantly, Hermes is the messenger of the gods, the herald of news both good and bad. He's the god of diplomacy, of orators, of language and writing, and of cunning manipulation through speech and skill in social settings. One of Dick's greatest strengths is his charisma, his ability to draw people in and convince them to follow him...and his ability to manipulate people into doing what he wants. He's a polyglot, very socially intelligent, and a brilliant public speeker. He's also, more metatextually, the forerunner of all legacy heroes, the herald of a new era in the heroing community. Making Dick a son of Hermes just felt natural after that.