#he writes really complicated relationships between batman and Robin

[necrotic-nephilim]

https://www.tumblr.com/necrotic-nephilim/761747687384252416/i-dont-care-how-much-you-hate-me-you-need-to?source=share

so i'm imagining that tim gets free

(maybe it's steph who's on the outs with tim and doesn't believe him about bruce but sure as fuck doesn't approve of whatever the hell this is or maybe it's damian who's jealous that tim is getting any so much of dick's attention despite the fact that he's the heir and robin)

regardless tim gets the fuck out of gotham and goes on his international art theft adventure to find bruce

unfortunately for everyone dick processes to lose his shit and now damian (and steph to a lesser extent) is doing for dick what tim did for bruce

also a lot of heroes are drawing parallels between this and b reaction after jason died

anyway tim gets his proof (and get saved by jason bc jason's looking at dick all "this is really creepy actually and i don't want you anywhere near tim despite how bad our relationship is")

tim then goes to green arrow with his proof because he knows that man would call dick out no matter what costume he's wearing and he actually does an ok job with all the kids he picks up

there's a jla meeting and dick sees tim and is just as unstable as tim guessed he would be and it's pinging everyone's radar as A Problem now

but obviously they get bruce back and no this is his problem bc literally everyone in the league is like "pls keep dick away from tim, his behavior has passed weird and gone into extremely unsettling"

i can't see what happens next bc i can't imagine bruce actually being help but i can see him being a disaster when he tries and that would be funny

this is SO good anon i love all of these things based on that fic so much aaaa

personally when i was writing it, i imagined Jason being the one to break Tim free. not out of wanting to save Tim or anything, but more so seeing it as a chance to make Tim owe him, and just to fuck with Dick. Jason will cause problems because He Can, and while i don't think he would particularly care for the moral implications of Dick holding Tim hostage (Jason was morally all over the place during Dick's Batman era i fear) he's just morbidly curious. that said the idea of Steph being the one to do so is also fun, because for her it *would* be the moral issue as well as caring about Tim. i think the most fun option is somewhere in the middle, where Jason and Steph are forced to team up, each with different end goals and not trusting each other whatsoever. so when they succeed and get Tim safely out of Dick's hold, there's a deep disagreement and slight scuffle over what to do now, Jason trying to manipulate Tim further against Dick and onto his side, whereas Steph is just prioritizing Tim's safety. i think it's fun if Tim is slightly mentally broken, just from how long he was held captive and the realization of Dick's feelings at the end fo the fic. so he's distrusting of anyone he's once trusted, even Steph, that he just slips away to focus on getting Bruce back, leaving both Jason and Steph trying to chase Tim. and course, Dick.

because Dick would of course try to get Tim back, again and again. Damian is trying to reel Dick back, just because he wants Dick's attention and he does sort of believe they should focus on Gotham. and then Steph is also trying to distract Dick to protect Tim. so everyone's tail spinning in the most complicated game of cat and mouse. Steph and Damian are forced on the same side, trying to get Dick to focus on Gotham instead of Tim, just for now. Steph is promising to keep an eye on Tim, Damian is insisting Gotham needs Dick's attention and combined, they're able to at least keep his immediate focus away from Tim, giving Tim time to find his proof. Jason having to save him is just *fun*, because it reinforces how sort of helpless Tim is. he's not up on his training and his become soft and with Dick's need to catch up to him eventually, it puts him in a vulnerable spot he would *hate.* he'd despise needing to be saved by Jason of all people. it'd fuck him up so bad, because all the bad things Jason is saying about Dick are technically true and somehow, the world is so flipped upside down that Jason is the reasonable one. i think it'd make Tim isolate more and more, distancing himself from the Batfamily, even the ones he should trust like Steph. sure, he's on the outs with her (likely still upset from the Search For A Hero arc) but she's looking out for him. and maybe he knows it, deep down, but Tim is just terrified of trusting anyone associated with the Bat name.

and since he can't go to the Batfam with his proof, him going to Oliver is *so* fun. i adore any concept where Oliver is the one to notice something is very wrong in the Batfam i swear anon it's like you're connected to my BRAIN. because sure Oliver doesn't *like* Bruce, but even Oliver knows this is fucked up. the story Tim tells him is a horrifying one. Oliver has always done right by his kids, or at least tried his best to. so to know what Dick pulled is horrifying. there's this implicit trust the entire hero community has in Nightwing that would get badly shaken up and i think that's fun. the Justice League meetings about it would be a shitshow. someone like Clark who's as close to Dick as he is would want to at least hear Dick out, try to understand his point of view. maybe Dick was in the wrong, but he had to have been doing this out of a place of concern and Tim's just twisted up about Dick's intentions. at the very least, trust in Dick is shattered but no one can agree on what to do, if they can do anything at all. it's agreed to keep TIm safe and away from Dick and long talks are had with Dick, but Dick is disturbingly good at being charming and manipulative, convincing them all he's sorry and he knows he took it too far, it's just the stress of the mantle that got to him.

and Bruce coming back would further complicate things in such fun ways. because Bruce will *always* protect and side with Dick. yes, he's worried about Tim, but he refuses to let any negative blowback hit Dick for this. because sure, Bruce would've never done that, but also, Bruce has done equally shitty things so, he's also not going to fully question it. Dick made a judgment call in the heat of the moment, and now, Bruce is going to defend his right to do so. it sends the League even more out of control, because they didn't expect Bruce to be so deeply on Dick's side. the phase "what would Bruce think?" got thrown at Dick a lot by all of them and now, well. they look a bit like fools for it because Bruce has made it clear what he thinks is that Dick had the right to make the call he thought was best as Batman. so while Dick is socially exiled, he doesn't face any *real* consequences. he's still in hero society and is respected as Nightwing and allowed to exist on the League. Dick just patiently waits for it all to blow over because eventually, there's always something more important to focus on that will make people forget about this outside of just a weird bad mistake Dick made.

and the longterm for TIm is fun. because I think he'd keep his distance from Gotham and Bludhaven, mostly keeping around Oliver, given Oliver is one of the few League members still refusing to let it all go, and it gives Tim some kind of safety net. but i think Dick would still try to pursue Tim. Dick would convince himself he just went about it the wrong way, he came on a little too strongly and he can still fix it. he keeps harassing Tim and trying to get Tim to like him back, making it clear he has no real regret for his actions. i think it's fun if Tim is forced to fake a relationship with someone else to get Dick to leave him alone. maybe Jason, maybe Steph. (honestly, this being JayTimSteph could be fun) and that fake relationship ends up developing into something more real, which would make Dick *insanely* jealous. i'm torn between Dick actually taking it too far (possibly forcing himself on Tim) or keeping his distance because both are fun. i'm partial to him forcing himself on Tim, just for the fucked up non-con that Tim has to cope with, knowing nothing he does will get Dick to leave him alone. he learns the best ways to stay safe, but it essentially kills his ability to have a vigilante career bc it puts him too out in the open. he takes a more Oracle-esque role (Tim working with the Birds of Prey could be a lot of fun) and always lives in some kind of fear of Dick catching up to him. it's so fun and fucked up that even when Tim escapes, he doesn't really and he knows it.

[sisaloofafump]

Peter J. Tomasi (writer) single-handedly trying to retcon all of Bruce's abusive past (I'm so here for it)

[logicallyblind]

bruce and jason’s relationship dynamic is so, so important to me while simultaneously makes me want to tear out my hair with my bare hands and scream into a pillow oh my god-

[vechter]

ao3 for dick grayson fics is such a trying experience, truly bc what do you mean there's not one, not two but an overwhelming abundance of fics where dick is a bad sibling and jason todd is the ideal, supportive, drops-everything-for-your-crisis sibling?

like i can understand the appeal of exploring the lesser of dick's choices and character traits and how those impact his relationships with the rest of the bats but you mean to tell me that any of them- damian, tim, cass- tim, especially- would willingly go to jason for help when they have the option of asking dick?

as much as red robin is a deeply rich, complex story about grief and morality, i'm afraid it did irreparable damage to dick's character, not to mention tim's (that boy does not have an egregiously high body count, comics would never gloss over that kind of mass death or be implicit about it in any way if that had actually happened)

dick's primary character thesis is being a safety net for people who fall- the way bruce and batman were for him after his parents died. it's one of his chief driving forces. there is no world where he doesn't help out a stranger, let alone his siblings if they come to him for help. and despite all of the bats being notoriously bad at asking for help and support, the number of instances where dick is an empathetic listener, doling out advice and emotional support and compassion (even when people are tight-lipped about needing any of those things) far outweighs the times he has been short-sighted or intentionally harsh. no character is perfect but to see how often jason is written favourably whilst simultaneously dragging dick is maddening fr

like, fine you like jason a lot. it can be fun and cathartic to write about him choosing to develop relationships outside of his grief/trauma/revenge with bruce (although i think that the most compelling thing about jason is how much of his character post-resurrection is driven by existing as a dead boy walking so to see him actually care about living and making healthy choices would probably require something beyond therapy with harley quinn lmao) but is it really necessary to do that while putting dick down? both tim and damian have seen dick while he is decidedly not at his best (reeling from the circus burning down in nw '96, grieving bruce, finding his footing as batman) and have come out the other side firm in their belief in him. cass, unfortunately is more removed from dick's immediate circle but that's a whole other tangent about how peripheral dick is to both of the batgirls that come after babs. steph, by virtue of having a parent who is alive, is lucky enough to be removed from more of the complicated dynamics all of them have with each other. and while dick is an ass in her initial batgirl days, he does warm up to her (but that again is a whole other post considering the legitimacy and nuances of characterizations in batgirl- tim never gets the same flak for his treatment of steph despite being much, much closer to her and actually knowing her beyond the second robin to die- and even then, when dick finds out about steph's death, the gist of initial reaction is to blame bruce, perhaps, rightfully so)

like you're falling for his act!!! as readers of a form of media like comics, we are lucky enough to get a glimpse into dick's inner neuroses and thought-processes while simultaneously seeing how he acts on them. ofc we see him make mistakes but a lot of the other characters don't!! and if/when they do, they don't see beyond the performance he delivers. even barring the fucked-up-ness of a high stakes job like vigilantism where trauma and death and adrenaline are linked together messily, no relationship between two people is perfect. people hurt each other, people lash out!! but the most compelling thing about dick is how often he reaches out, how often he swings back even after he has swung away!! that's what makes him such a source of light, hope and positivity for everybody he encounters

and this is not even touching n52 which seems like the most hasty kind of decision making and writing from editorial with no consideration for a lot of the characters' histories, lore and their core characterizations

[timdrakeinorder]

The New Titans #60: A Lonely Place of Dying Part Two (My thoughts)

Learning from last time and using a read more because dear lord that one got out of hand

(I don't really have anything to say about this panel, I just think she's pretty <3 Kori I KNOW I can do you better than Nightwing, hit me up)

I think Vic's word choice is interesting here, specifically saying he's calling 'Wayne Manor', not 'batman' or 'bruce'. I mean, it IS Alfred who picks up so maybe he just wasn't positive who'd answer the phone, but that layer of distance is interesting. He's on the lookout for one of his best friends and he finally calls 'the manor' not Dick's mentor. I haven't read enough new titans to have a lot of context for their relationship but I wonder if Vic sees Bruce as Dick's dad or his boss.

I love how they position Alfred here directly under Martha's stare. Alfred is on the verge of losing Bruce as well unless something drastically changes soon, she's always haunting the narrative, isn't she?

(I don't have much to say about this panel either, just look at her <3 The 80s comics may be messy about how they write women but GOD can they draw them! Or maybe I'm just gay and easy to impress who knows)

Tim you creepy little fucker <3. This bit DOES confuse me though, I will admit. We see Tim in his room with a copy of the photo with him and the Graysons in part one, so I really don't get WHY he'd break into Dick's apartment and tear up his stuff... just to show Dick a photograph that Tim already owns. Maybe it was just the only way they could think of for the rest of the team to learn that Dick's stalker knows both identities?

He's so sweet, how can you not love him?

The crowbar continues to haunt the narrative.

Still no full face reveal but we're getting close!

Tim's very one sided intimacy with Dick rears its head yet again. He can't immediately recognize Dick in the crowd and his first thought is that he MUST be in disguise. Keeping in mind that he still HAS NOT SEEN Dick at Haly's, he's still running on a hunch. A good hunch and he IS right in the end, but this is about a man that, to our knowledge, he only met ONCE as a three year old.

Houston, we have eyes!

Aaaaaaaaaand FULL FACE!

He looks so little here. He watched a man die AGAIN from the audience at Haly's circus and I love all the connections between this meeting and Tim's first time meeting Dick.

The! Audacity! Of! This! Boy!

I like that Tim isn't highly skilled by any means but we do learn early on that he's very fit, even before being trained, just not much more than an average physically active teenage boy. He managed to flip NIGHTWING 90% of the way to the ground, that is seriously impressive.

HE'S SO LITTLE!!!! Tim is very sure of himself and very entitled in such a 13 year old boy way. He has a very specific simple idea of how the world should be and he will leap on the first answer he sees. He sees an out of control batman, he's positive that having a robin will fix him, he hunts down Dick Grayson and expects him to jump back in the cape and boots. He sees a suspicious death that will spell out the end of a circus that's important to him, he has the bare bones of a lead based on extremely little evidence, he accuses a clown of murder. It hasn't sunken in for him yet just how complicated these situations are. Just how complicated PEOPLE are.

In his mind it's so simple and he can't understand why it isn't simple for Dick as well. Tim is accusing a dear friend of his of murder and it's like Tim doesn't realize the full scope of how serious this all is.

[northoftheroad]

I really like your blog and read a lot of things you had to say about Wolfman, so can I pick your brain about Devin Grayson?

A lot of people seem to say she wasn't good for the Nightwing run. Just wanna know your opinions about it

I'm gonna read her run anyways. It's just that I like your takes on things. Especially since you make connections with older comics.

Honestly, I think there is a lot to enjoy in Devin Grayson's stories. In Titans, she wrote Dick as a competent workaholic and the Titans as a group of very close friends. JLA vs Titans has a worried bat-dad, which is always adorable. Dick and Tim have fun together, and Bruce is emotionally complicated in Batman: Gotham Knights. Batman plus Arsenal is great (Roy chews out Batman!). Her story in the Robin 80th anniversary comic has a fun twist. Etc.

Batman: Gotham Knights # 8 & 9

Then there's things I don't like.

The rape. IMO, you shouldn't write rape in comics unless you're prepared to deal thoroughly with the consequences in the story. Admittedly, the sexual assault in Nightwing vol 2 # 93 is probably dealt with more seriously than the Mirage situation by Marv Wolfman, but I still wanted something more. Blockbuster's murder and the rape had an enormous impact on Dick's mental health; we should have got a resolution where Dick could admit out loud (if even only to himself) what happened, where he could get what help he needed and decide to move on. (Preferably, I would also have liked other characters to realise what had happened and not only be assholes…) (That Devin Grayson, in some interview, wanted to call it not consensual instead of rape doesn't help (full disclosure: I don't know if she's backed down on that).)

The retconning of Dick as part Roma. Now, it's for people who are Roma to have opinions about representation; I've seen (allegedly, because who knows what is correct on social media) both Roma people who like it and those who don't. From where I'm standing, it wasn't well done. The only comic arc where a Roma parent is essential to the story is quite problematic; you get the impression that the writer did it… to exoticise Dick and have Bruce talk like a racist…? 

Gotham Knights # 20.

Some later stories have acknowledged this retcon, but only a handful of issues from decades worth of comics. Most writers ignore it, and Dick has never been portrayed as being fluent in a Romani dialect or adhering to any customs (other than looking for Romani food and talking about some legend.) He didn't even speak Romani when Devin Grayson wrote him.

How she wrote the relationship between Dick and Barbara. They were supposed to be old and dear friends, apart from a couple. Barbara blamed Dick for being sexually harassed (kissed), and when he came to her for comfort, reeling from Haly's circus being burned down, she asked him to leave after few hours night. That's not a relationship I, as a reader, would root for.

To be fair, she intended to write a story about how Dick went from being happy, to making his life living hell, and presumably end in a new happy place for him. Dick and Barbara are written in a way that would end in their splitting up. (Writers will create conflict because the storytelling needs it, and sometimes we as readers can think it was out of character, or unnecessary.)

I expect I would like her writing better if she could have finished her story. Maybe she would have got together the Dick/Barbara relationship and delivered a satisfactory resolution to the rape. But DC editorial interrupted her plans with Infinite Crisis, where they almost decided to kill Nightwing, and she had to make a rushed conclusion that never went anywhere. And when the Nightwing comic continued, it was in another town and one of the worst Nightwing stories ever.

As I said, I like part of her characterisation of Dick – how he can be ultra serious just as well as joking around, has a tendency to overwork himself, blame himself, he wants to give everyone a chance. But… I know she's said in an interview that she thinks of Dick as a contact junkie* who processes with his body before his head. I'm not down with that. Ok, as an acrobat, you could argue that body memory and responding to the touch of his fellow performers is essential for survival. And Dick might be freer with hugs than Bruce Wayne and Alfred, but that's a very low bar to set. Marv Wolfman wrote a Dick Grayson who was very private and could hardly show his love for Kory physically in public. (To be fair, when Dick dated a few girls in college in the comics from the 70s, he didn't mind holding hands and kissing in public. But, as much as I enjoy citing examples from older comics, the 80s is the start of a deeper characterisation for Dick Grayson.) I read Dick as a guy who's very much in his head – if not for any other reason, Batman must have drilled into him to think and question everything. There are panels where he seeks out solitude or watches nature programmes without talk to relax. And I also read him as uncomfortable with strangers touching or ogling him.

Anyway, happy reading. Of course you should read and form your own opinions. I guess you'll find things to love and things to loathe - I find that's true about most comic book writers and runs, myself 😎

*The way I think about him, he likes everyone, he's sort of a contact junkie — just this incredibly physical (and attractive) person who lives wholly in the corporeal plane and responds with — processes things in — his body before his head or heart. I imagine that he can be hypnotised by a touch the way other people can be stopped dead in their tracks by the sight of money or the promise of true love.

[searchforahero]

thank you for the tag, @necrotic-nephilim!!!

rules: answer and tag nine people you want to get to know better and catch up with.

favorite color: urg this ones so hard... #FF0000 red or a desaturated blue like #9699BA

last song: big city nights by scorpions

currently reading:

checked out frankenstein and hamlet from the library for a re-read and have not touched either. which is evil because i adore both of them.

trying to read IT and pride and prejudice, which has not been happening.

for ongoing comic series i'm on like issue 30 of teen titans (2003) and have been randomly picking and choosing issues of robin (1993) to read.

i stepped out of my preboot comfort zone to read robin war recently and loved duke so i'm planning to go through and read a bunch of stuff with him in it, but it's been slow going because of work

reading the 1988 catwoman miniseries right now

currently watching:

watching supernatural with my mom while i'm home for the summer. we're on season 2 but it's slow because of my job

started teen wolf but that's also significantly slowed because of work. i'm on like ep 3

re-watching assassination classroom

recently started chobits and hellsing but have been incredibly slow with both, again because of work.

re-watched saw saturday :]

currently craving: literally any soup or curry i am not picky

coffee or tea: i don't drink either (except tea when i'm sick). if i had to choose i'd go with an iced coffee with some sort of chocolate flavoring though lol

hobby to try: i want to get into visual novels. i've been trying but i have no free time </3 also 3d modeling. i know how to do it sorta because of college but i'd like to do it more for fun.

current au: for like AU AU i've been thinking about an AU where jason and tim don't recognize each other out of the masks initially (don't ask how still trying to figure that one out) and tim runs a d&d (or whatever the batman copyright safe ttrpg is called i can't be bothered to check rn) campaign out of the back room at a local comic shop and he's starting a new campaign and looking for new players and jason ends up joining (i'm still trying to figure out a justification for this don't ask why jason is playing ttrpgs in between rounds of beheadings. as you can see this AU is not well thought out), and they end up becoming close friends outside of their masks while they become increasingly obsessed with each other in their masks. this is mostly an excuse for secret identity drama and to have tim flirt with jason through NPCs so don't think too hard about it.

also this isn't a pokemon blog but i'm always building on my most dearly beloved pokemon AU, mostly been writing stuff up about the complicated dynamic between lance and blue, the consequences of human/pokemon fusion (specifically serena fusing with yveltal), the dynamic between leon and rose, as well as leon's relationship with the other young champions, among other things. this AU isn't really one story, it's just my massive list of pokemon headcanons all shoved into one AU.

i don't know if i can come up with nine people to tag ough let me try though: @pumpkin-memories @thearrowavenger @redhoodinternaldialectical @snakeboot @crow-eyed @hesayshesgotboyfriend okay i didn't quite get to nine but i tried :] i hope you guys don't mind me tagging yall in this :] if you do it i'll be excited to see the responses :]]

[damianbugs]

hi <3 since ive already obsessively reread your works i dont know how many times i think it's time for me to branch out and find some other batfam stuff too (im still a loyal reader tho dw bestie) i was wondering if you had any batfam authors you personally love and / or are inspired by! or maybe your top 5 batfam fics? if you don't mind sharing it ofc! thank u have a swag day and thank u for putting out such amazing amazing work into the world that offers me (personally) so much comfort :)

hello !! thank you so much for reading my works and i hope you will continue to enjoy them <3 i am so glad they bring you as much comfort reading as they do for me when writing !! and YES OF COURSE there is simply nothing i love more than recommending batfam fics that have me going absolutely crazy insane.

i previously did a top 5 batfam fic recs, and so here are my, uh, other top 5 batfam fics? everything is at the top of my list at this point.

+ these are in no particular order !!

MY TOP 5 BATFAM FICS (AGAIN) ON AO3 !

Cold Hard Want by AudreyCritter

“Are you happy?”

“I...I’m getting there.”

A follow-up to DC Rebirth Batman #35, in which Bruce recovers from being stabbed in the back and Damian considers the elusive nature of happiness.

MY NOTES: i might have read this fic a dozen times and everytime i do i am always so amazed by it. i have a soft spot for fics that move alongside actual comic canon, and so this was a lovely follow up to that original story (though you do not need to be familiar with it to enjoy this fic). damian is such a complicated character but at the end of the day, he is a child — and i think this handled his tumultuous relationship with bruce, dick and selina(!!) really well.

White Christmas by LemonadeGarden

Jason's been in the manor for a few months now. Bruce is a pretty cool guy, sure, but he's not exactly sure what to expect from him.

And then they go to Siberia in the winter on a case. It goes horribly wrong, and then pretty well.

MY NOTES: personally i think it is always the perfect time of year for a christmas fic that isn't actually about christmas. now, not only do all the best tropes meet in this fic (cuddling for warmth, sick fic, comfort after nightmares - to name a few) BUT this is also about robin jason todd. the little boy of all time. wonderful fic.

all the other rooms are a party tonight (and you never got an invitation) by irnan

(You will need an ao3 account to access this fic)!

The major difference between Gotham before Bruce left to set up Batman, Inc and Gotham after he comes back is that his children are grown-ups. Well, except for Damian.

Still, four out of five's an overwhelming majority.

MY NOTES: there is something so healing about this fic. bruce is rather pathetic (said fondly) in the way troubled middle aged men become when they finally realise their life is only in consequence of the people who exist around them. the dynamic between cass and bruce and dick and bruce in this is one of my favourites. the latter is very carefully weaved into the entire story, even when pertaining the other characters. a great take on bruce!

Have I Told You About Minnie? by Hinn_Raven

After you’ve known Matches Malone long enough, you get used to him telling you about his kids. Not that his kids know about it.

MY NOTES: oh this is such a fun one!! stephanie and bruce is such a wonderful dynamic and something about bruce creating an entirely new persona as a subconscious excuse to gloat about his children is just too funny. really sweet!

i want you to remember me by zxrysky

Bruce really needs to get rid of his saviour complex. Not all of them are the same as that poor boy who had to watch his parents get murdered in a dark alleyway; not all of them need to be saved.

Jason is perfectly fine where he is. Some capital would be great, but otherwise, he’s fine. He’s fine.

He doesn’t need to be saved again.

“No thanks,” Jason mutters, and pushes the papers away.

MY NOTES: this one hits you when you least expect it. it is so funny, so sweet and it hurts. jason todd you are so ridiculously complicated and tragic. also my favourite kind of time travel, kind-of-time-travel! little jason receives all of older jason's memories and his meeting with bruce and journey to robin is different, but some things are just destiny i suppose. so lovely.

as for inspirations or favourite authors, i have to say it might just be everyone i have ever read a fic from so i can not pick out anyone right now. the writers featured on this list are also phenomenal and some have written other amazing and loved batfam fics you should definitely check out!

hope you enjoy these anon and thank you again <3

[batmanisagatewaydrug]

Of your readings so far, which Batman has your favourite characterisation and why? Which has your least-favourite?

ooh okay this is a very hard question, because I'm very predisposed to like Bruce and will forgive a lot of bullshit. even when he's written in ways that frustrate me, like Murderer/Fugitive or Lonely City, I'm frustrated with him, not the writers' choices, because they're not so much writing him in a way I dislike as writing him in a way that puts all of his biggest flaws on display and really highlight what a nightmare of a person he is to know and love, so the feeling of frustration is very much an intended reaction.

of my recent reading I was really knocked over by Batman #416 and how it really cuts right to one of the most interesting aspects of Bruce's character to me: the conflict between his desperate hunger for companionship and the trauma-born control issues that make him almost impossible to maintain to close relationship with.

#416 does this by having Dick show up back at Wayne Manor to ask Bruce what the fuck he thinks he's doing running around with a fresh Robin after unceremoniously firing Dick "for his own good" at the tender age of 19, after six years working side by side. it's heartbreaking on both sides, because both men are clearly Not Okay about the experience. Dick was set adrift with absolutely no support or direction from the man who took him in and shaped his entire adolescence, and Bruce goes pretty much full Bruce mode upon being [gasp] forced to admit that he missed Dick and was lonely. it's not pretty!!

bby girl you are so emotionally repressed and maladjusted

(also press F in memory of when Dick was mad as hell and ready to throw hands with Bruce at the drop of a hat, the above panel only happens after like two solid pages of Dick yelling at Bruce to stop lying and deluding himself lmaoooo)

anyway this is a pretty simple issue but it's a really good little showcase of who Bruce is is as a person and mentor (deeply flawed!!!) and reminder that while the Bats do care for each other enormously, that care comes with a lot of pain and complication because of the general fuckery their lives entail.

least favorite characterization is when Bruce saved Ronald Reagan's life during the AIDS epidemic

[thattimdrakeguy]

What would yo say are the best Tim comics?

I apologize for how long this got. I can't talk like a normal person. I get too excited to talk about stuff. So bare with me. I'm really sorry.

I'm an Early Tim guy. I enjoy the consistency involved with them. Are they perfect? A-ha...noooooooooooo. Not at all. No comic is. Chuck Dixon was very clearly a grumpy middle-aged conservative man, which can make Tim come off as occasionally out of character since Tim was developed by Marv Wolfman as a naive, idealistic, positive-thinker, from a liberal family.

But he at least most of the time understands Tim, and certainly the aspects of Tim's anxiety caused by how highly Tim thinks of the legacy of Batman and Robin which is great.

So, like: Lonely Place of Dying.

It's his origin written by Marv Wolfman, it is THEE thing to read if you want to understand Tim. The fandom mostly talks about a made up version of his origin that is not even close to the case.

You want to read Tim? You want to understand him?

Lonely Place of Dying is the way to go.

There's also a good two-part story in Titans where Dick helps train Tim, but I can't remember what issues those were. You will likely be able to easily read it.

Tim also has a lot of fun moments before he's Robin but after Lonely Place of Dying where he's still written by his creator Marv Wolfman. The thing is, they're moments, so try to look like them up at least for extra content that show you more of how much of a Boy Scout Tim is.

The stories where Tim's parents die, and how he handles it afterwards are also very good. I would've preferred if his parents had lived, since a parent dying is such a trope. But it gives Tim an interesting dynamic where he was already working on being a crime-fighter when his died. It gave Tim a more existential side to his personality, that gives him a nice contrast with his positive-thinking side, giving him more depth ultimately.

The first Robin mini-series is great, mostly. But it is great.

This is where Dixon started writing Tim, though. And there's an extremely uncomfortable scene between Lady Shiva and Tim in the fourth issue, that I still can't put a comfortable twist on.

His other mini-series are also great. Joker's Wild is the second one, and the third one is Cry of the Huntress (Pretty sure), the third one is extremely angsty, so warning on that. They're all angsty, but goodness that one goes further with it.

His appearances in the general Batman and Detective Comics issues are also good. Different writers but he's consistent. It was a really good period for Batman and the Bat-Family overall, except for perhaps Dick, who wasn't terrible, just not his peak period anymore.

Robin, the ongoing Tim had is weird to describe. 'Cause in Dixon's run it is very very good. Yet filled with stuff that is really really not good.

His relationship with Stephanie has dated terribly, and with the modern eye makes no sense.

Stephanie essentially sexually harasses him, Tim does not like her beyond feeling responsible for her, and eventually they date.

Steph is a good character besides them dating, but the fact they ever dated is really unrealistic. Steph is a character created by Dixon, and you'll be able to tell when she goes from side-character with a great dynamic with Tim, to a character Dixon is desperate to have stay in the Bat-Family legacy.

And even past Steph, Dixon is horrible at writing romance. Any attempt at a love interest with Tim are almost always terrible. They can be distractingly bad how horrible the writing is.

Dixon's conservatism also pops out...which is distracted when Wolfman literally, in-comic, had the Drake's consider themselves liberals.

Not enough to ruin the experience, it's noticeable though.

Dixon's ability to write a complicated kid character, with a great pacing, great depth, side-characters (mostly), and characters that bring out Tim's character are fantastic. It's a great run overall.

There's more after this, that's important to read, I just don't want to cram up people's dashboard.

I'm simply warning you that it is dated, like many comics of it's age. So be warned when gross stuff shows up.

The pros outweigh the cons I'd say, since Dixon is mostly blacklisted from comics right now anyhow.

Tim will also have appearances in Nightwing too around this time, that are some of the best content those two characters have in their history. Search em out, they're fantastic.

Oh, and once Tim goes to boarding school in Dixon's run, feel free to jump off. Dixon gets increasingly lazy, and his writing turns really bad. It's not that bad at the start of it, but as it goes, my goodness does his once great run turn into total garbage. Side-characters are generic, Steph turns into an outright emotional abuser, characters act super super super out of character for moments that are written for Dixon himself.

Read the start of it. There's still good stuff, and a few good, fun stories. I particularly like one that ends with Tim getting autographed books for his friend.

Just know that it will eventually turn to shit.

And his solo isn't good again until Adam Beechon. Adam Beechon arguably has the best Tim Drake run, if you skip the Evil Cass storyline that was forced onto him.

He understands Tim incredibly well, and without the conservative politics. Telling similar stories to Dixon but doing it better. And Tim's love interest is, genuinely, the only one he's ever had that feels like they're good for each other.

It's also perhaps the only, if not one of the only comics during Tim's depression era that still understands who Tim is as a person.

Adam Beechon has even written for Ben 10, and the Teen Titans animated series.

If you only want to read one run for Tim as a test drive, besides Lonely Place of Dying, read Beechon's run.

Besides that, uh, some guest appearances in Birds of Prey, and Batgirl. Though don't read any that are late in the Batgirl run, 'cause holy shit there's one story that's just about the writers fetish for the Barbara Gordon classic Batgirl suit and it is really really bad. Full of projection.

The closest thing to an in-character Tim since Beechon is maybeeee Bendis's Young Justice, but they try to act like his and Steph's relationship is the one and super healthy. And it got too ambitious for his own good. Also Tim randomly goes from Robin to 'Drake' and it's bad. Tim never wanted to be anything but Robin, and was created that way so it's super distracting.

So if you want more crumbs that'll do ya, just, again, be warned.

This is comics we're talking about.

That isn't me calling it the best. It's more of like--an extra thing of note for the sake of other people. Enjoy what ya will.

There's other comics that are good, just...Tim's characterization feels really different and forced in ways that go against what one would call the heart of the character. The thing needed that can have even some not so great characterization feel bearable.

In my opinion anyways.

Enjoy what you enjoy.

[wormsin]

Different anon here and I’m sorry for derailing the topic with this ask and making it more into a gen or possibly including other ship territory, but your answers made me curious on how (do you think) his relationship to his mission contributes to his inner turmoil and his relationship (this codependency) with Dick, especially when his mission is oftentimes conflated with Joker which then extends to this codependency to him (Joker)? I suppose, I’m trying to reconcile these two points, since I’ve always been focused on the latter (his unhealthy relationship with Joker) and have seen many people pointed its evidences in canon, and rarely the former (his unhealthy relationship with Dick, and whenever I see a post about it, it’s always confined in a very fixed nuclear father-son relationship) until I see your answers and now it has intrigued me

no worries! I also like gen Bruce & Dick, and other ships of theirs. well some of them 😅

if I'm understanding your question right, what is the ven diagram overlap of Bruce's codependency with the Joker and codependency with Dick? how are these dependencies reconciled? I actually have been researching this and have a conspiracy theory about how it all works in Bruce's brain. (had to figure it out for my fic It's Never Over Until it's Over. as some of the theory is spoilers for the rest of the fic, I won't get into it all now. but I will write the meta after the fic is complete.)

first of all, yes, a lot of Bruce&Dick dysfunction meta I see is through the lens of parental abuse. imo there's some of that in comics but the vast majority is just Not Parental.

Dick Bruce Joker Codependency Triangle

there's not a lot of comics that I've found that address both of these relationships, but some moments come to mind:

Joker shoots Dick, Dick nearly falls to his death, and Bruce fires Dick.

Dick kills the Joker, and Bruce revives him.

Dick, Damian and the Joker fight side by side (sort of) against Dr. Hurt while Bruce is "dead".

Dick goes to Bruce after Jason has died.

a simple understanding of these dependencies are that Dick and the Joker are the angel and devil on Bruce's shoulders. Dick keeps Bruce in the light and saves his life; Joker drives him towards madness and suicide. the Joker represents the line Bruce can't cross (murder, which would make Bruce evil) and Dick is the version of Bruce who doesn't need that line.

I think it's more complicated than that. there are too many overlaps between Dick and Joker, and the Robins in general and Joker. some of this might be just because Dick and the Joker are the oldest continuous characters for Bruce and writers love to iterate on those relationships. but there are some really interesting comics that delve into Bruce's psyche and Dick, Joker, Batman and his parents play huge roles in his mind.

the mission in general is both Bruce's maladaptive coping mechanism, which strains all his relationships, and his potential to be the best version of himself. this makes it very difficult for Bruce to be a balanced person. I think Dick is one of the few people who sees both sides of the Mission, and helps Bruce be a balanced Batman.

the Joker on the other hand, only sees one side of Batman. he is maybe THE person who drags Bruce into the worst version of his Mission. and I think Bruce having a healthy relationship to Batman necessarily involves untangling his self from the Joker, which he arguably has started to do in the last few big Joker storylines.

[bluegarners]

In your canon

Was Dick formally adopted by one of two years after being taken in as a foster child or much like canon he was formally adopted later in his life?

hiii paladin!!

it honestly depends on the story i'm trying to create, but i typically like to go with the canon version where he's adopted later in life. i have complicated feelings about dick's bio parents because, unlike so many dc parents, they were actually amazing. they were genuinely fantastic and they were dick's parents even after they died. also, the relationship between a young child and their parents is extremely profound and attached. from personal experience, the bond between my parents and my youngest brother is much more... intertwined than theirs is with me. they love me, but the dependence my little brother still has with my parents is a level i don't even approach anymore. a young child and their parent need each other more than an older child or adult need with their parent, and dick's relationship with his parents was at that stage where he relied on them for nearly everything. having that taken away from you and replaced with just basic necessities being taken care of by people you don't know and who don't know how to love you properly is.... scary and wrong

i very much agree with canon in that dick already had someone in his life to call "dad", and just because that person wasn't around anymore didn't mean they didn't still hold that title. bruce adopting dick right after his parents died would be like a breach of that title, even if neither party thought of the other in that way just yet. allowing dick that distance as a child to grieve without feeling obligated to fit bruce into his life as his "new dad", or what have you, i believe is honestly an excellent writing decision in terms of their characterizations at that time

that being said, with the canon of dick being adopted by bruce as an adult... i don't really care for that. although i don't love the idea of dick being adopted right away and made an "official" part of the wayne family, it would have added a much-needed sense of security and stability in his life. i wish dick had been adopted during his teenage years, 14-15 maybe, because dick has now had time to process some of his grief and been allowed time to get to know alfred and bruce beyond how they operate as batman and robin. adolescent hood is a tumultuous time, and more than ever in their lives do teenagers need a reminder of how much they are loved and needed when it may feel like their time in the family is running out, what with the possibility of college and adulthood looms on the horizon. it's especially different with dick's situation as he juggles robin, leading the titans, training and working with batman, an active civilian social life, and school on top of all of that. if bruce had adopted dick as a teenager, dick would have had at least the knowledge that he wanted not just as robin/soldier for batman, but also as a wayne family member

so, i suppose, my canon does still have dick being adopted later in life, but definitely before adulthood

[strawberrytalia]

the talia anon here!

thanks for that reading list! I think I might start with the arrowfam bc I'm very intrigued by Dinah's character. honestly, the reason why I didn't ask about the mystics is bc I have never encountered them with whatever DC content I have consumed (which is not a lot) and I want to expand to something I'm familiar with first

I'm currently going through both preboot Talia and postboot robins which are drastically different with its talia (like SOTD Talia giving up her son for adoption so he can be something more and won't have to grow up the shadow of The Demon and The Bat vs Tomasi's Batman and Robin Talia that purposefully raised Damian in the league). honestly give me the ick.

unfortunately, the existence of Damian really did ruin what Talia could have been, but I wanna ask (you can totally ignore this portion of the ask if you're too uncomfortable, I'm just intrigued by what you have to say) how do you think Damian and OG talia can co-exist in current canon?

i know there's a person writing a fic about how while talia has her whole lexcorp era ra's kidnaps damian and raises him. Once Talia finds out she gets Damian out and brings him to Bruce (I haven't read it, but I know of its existence). I honestly prioritize Talia's character over Damian's since she was created first and I am 100% ok with Damian's characterization being mellowed out a bit, so it doesn't show Talia horribly, something to show that Talia did try to protect him (it'll be like that quote that said "just because you mother didn't break all the generational curses doesn't mean she didn't break any") talia knows how bad it is to be raised in LOA, so she needs something to make her stay IMO. maybe Ra's promises to be a better grandfather than he was a father, maybe there are external threats to Damian that talia really can't deal with without LOA's resources or something to do with Nyssa (I am so intrigued by the sisters. i want to see the mess of emotions that comes with them interacting. i really do think Nyssa would hate Talia because of Ra's, but talia would just like to hang out with her like the youngest child she is)

now im just rambling but you get the gist

Hello again!!!!!

Ahh so with Dinah, I would recommend Longbow Hunters, then jump into GA Vol 2 and then maybe Birds of Prey (where she shines outside of the family)!! There are other appearances but unfortunately they’re not the best representation of her character (cough GA/BC)

Also yeah totally understandable with mystics!! They really do have a VERY different vibe than majority of the DCU, and it is super enjoyable, but also a little complicated and difficult to get into at first.

Yeah thinking about Talia’s deterioration upsets me a lot. In addition to raising Damian, there were a lot of really gross, unnecessary changes that undermined what she had gone through. Like she was a canon SA victim, and then they have the audacity to make her a rapist herself in the most uncharacteristic way possible. It’s so so so gross.

I agree with you though, I absolutely do prioritize Talia’s characterization over Damian’s. She was a fully fledged character created before him with so much relevance to not just Batman, but the DCU. I love Damian!! But he was also essentially an OC created for a storyline with an agenda that has grown to invalidate adoptive relationships. I’m NOT saying I wanna get rid of Damian, but if I had to choose between them, I’m picking Talia personally. 100%.

THAT is an interesting question because I don’t quite have a solid answer myself yet. I know what AU you’re talking about, and I like that idea a lot! But something about it also rings hollow to me?? If that makes sense??? In a personal sense, I feel like it also absolves Talia of a lot of agency and action, and I would rather her character be in a more proactive position.

And I also think Talia would be a lot smarter and more clever in making sure there was absolutely no way Ras would ever find her baby. So the AU does undermine her a bit, in my personal opinion.

However I think the most integral part of Damian’s character is the way that he revolves around the concept of redemption, especially as an abused child. So it also feels very wrong to take away from that, since it’s such a core aspect to him.

So there’s the conundrum.

GAHHH it’s hard thinking of ideas that will do both of them justice, unless you completely revamp Damian’s character.

Maybe Talia stays in the league with Damian and under the guise of being loyal to Ras, she’s actually secretly plotting to take him and the whole League down. She keeps as much of a watchful eye on Damian as she can, but she’s not perfect and she also wants him to be able to fend for himself. So if he has to learn the harshest ways of survival and combat, so be it. (Talia logic not mine). Talia doesn’t raise Damian to be proud of the League or his Grandfather. She keeps him aware of what she’s planning and why they have to do that. She tells him about Bruce (just like in canon) but makes sure Damian knows until the time is right, he can’t meet his father. Plans get messed up, Talia’s big idea goes haywire because of an outside party, and nowhere near her is safe for Damian. Except for Bruce.

So kind of adapted from canon except less evil weird eugenics rapey storyline, and something that gives Talia a bit of autonomy. Damian would also have less of a brainwashed League personality while still carrying trauma and mixed feelings towards his family. I don’t think Talia would be a perfect mother. I think she’d try her best in the way she knew best, and unfortunately, her way is not that great. But most importantly, she would want Damian to have a better future than she did. If it meant enduring 10 years of the League, she’d make that sacrifice.

Other possible idea: Talia was a med student going to University of Cairo in her early appearances. I kind of like the idea of her becoming a traveling medical personal bringing Damian alongside her, except they’re both hiding their identities. Again, it wouldn’t be picture perfect, she’d still make sure he was aware of the dangers in life. But I feel like they’d have an interesting story that way.

Or maybe she kills Ras, escapes the League, the new leader of the League is like whatever and just leaves it alone, and she just openly raises Damian in the realm of Lexcorps business and politics lmao. Little baby Damian wearing a suit and attending meetings on his mom’s lap while she verbally assassinates men.

[flashflashhundredyarddash]

flashfam and birdflash because im WEAKKK

so barry and iris take wally in because rudy is a FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT

lets imagine this happens early teens or so

wally never even comes out to his dad because he just. Knows exactly what his parents would think

he kind of. subtly tried to bring it up with his mom but she made her opinion Pretty Damn Clear so wally is like great this is awesome

as a result of both the superspeed + switching cities + adhd wally has practically 0 friends growing up which really concerns barry and iris

so barry is like, babe, i have a fantastic idea, im going to set up a playdate with batmans kid

and iris is like I GUESS

(also the way wally behaves in a relationship is 100% modeled after barry and iris because they literally have the perfect relationship. see exhibit a) babe as a pet name)

((this is also probably why hes a little upset when he finds out about barry and hal because its like. you think you understand your parents and then they hit you with this massive bombshell that kind of forces you to change your whole perception of them? and even though nobodys done anything wrong its still really upsetting? and maybe if wally had known earlier that barry was bi wally wouldnt have been so fucking stressed out about coming out?))

anyways. robin and kid flash playdate. a meeting for the ages.

wally gets a crush like. right away but doesnt realize so he oscillates WILDLY between being REALLY nice to robin and also being kind of fucking mean lol wally was very much pulling robins pigtails

like one day wally shares half his ants on a log that iris made him with robin and then the next he puts gum in robins hair and robin cries while alfred cuts it out

robin is like UGH kid flash is SO MEAN and bruce is like you dont have to hang out with him and robin is like NO IM GONNA

wally gets out of the mean phase quickly though lol

barry and iris realize right away its a crush and are like aw cute but then it... doesnt go away... ever...

so then they go REALLY hard on the PFLAG thing and keep like brochures and pride flags EVERYWHERE which actually does make wally a lot more comfortable

when wally comes out they all cry lol

wally calls barry and iris uncle and aunt but when hes much older he switches between aunt/uncle and mom and dad

anyways when dick leaves bruce/is fired/complicated feeling stuff dick spends most of his time at titans tower BUT also spends a significant amount of time at barry and iris' place

because the westallen household is adhd central, dick actually learns a lot of tips for dealing with his own adhd from them

dick is trying to Figure out his place in the world so he actually gets really into the journalism scene for a while because of both iris and clark

iris: hi this is my nephew, dick, hes my intern :)

clark: no, this is MY nephew, hes MY intern :)

lois bugs bunny meme: OUR nephew-intern

wally Does Not get it at all bcus he is 100% a STEM kid but hes still like i support you babe :^)

barry and iris LOVE dick. dick doesnt really open up about his situation but they kind of get the gist so barry is like. really annoyed with batman whenever they have to work together

iris writes a very scathing series of articles about the batman of gotham and dick is very vindictively pleased

dick actually finds out about hal and barry first bcus he comes downstairs and theyre making out on the couch and and dick is like UHHHH and halbarry are like UHHHHHHHH and dick is like I AM CALLING IRIS RIGHT FUCKING NOW and halbarry are like NO ITS COOL

iris is like. Mom supreme. dick for the past decade has had like no mother figures (selina doesnt really count because her and bruce are messyyyyy) so he both really wants iris's affection and also gets really overwhelmed by it

also barry. like, isnt emotionally constipated? wally tells dick that the west allens have weekly dinners where they talk about whats up with them and their feelings and dick is like aw thats cute and then wally is like dick u should join us and dick is like WAIT NO THATS NOT WHAT I MEANT

so dick is now required to be at family dinners once a month and talk about his feelings which is both exhausting and liberating

barry cries at the wedding and iris is like I Am Not Crying How Dare You Imply That I Am.

bruce and iris. the most begrudging in-laws. everytime bruce sees iris hes immediately reminded of the phrase "The Batman is a violent, depressed loner who gets his thrills by beating up homeless people and drug addicts." and its like jesus fucking christ iris way to gut the man

iris 100% uses the fact that shes dick graysons mother-in-law aunt-in-law to get sources. its a dog-eat-dog world out there, kid.

dick adores the twins bcus he loves babies

wally gets SO annoyed by bart its very funny to dick. wally and dick both grew up as only children but dick has had more time to adjust to having siblings so hes much more fond of bart than wally initially is

[ectonurites]

listen ok mayb i just have way too many thoughts on fathers and thats like a me problem but like. i think we should get more tim feeling conflicted abt jack like. after the man is dead. ykno. like of course it was traumatic for him and like. it was just one thing after the other back then but like. idk. i dont think all his issues with jack shld just never be brought up again. like he wasnt terrible awful no good very bad but like. he wasnt a saint either. i just want to hear more of tim's thoughts abt his parents and like. how their deaths made his thoughts and feelings even More complicated. and also bruce wayne vs jack drake who is more dad to tim.

Yeah Tim’s relationships with Jack and Bruce are very complex things that like… they do come up sometimes but a lot of his problems with Jack do stop coming up once Jack’s dead.

Earlier on while Jack is alive I think Tim goes a decent amount into his frustrations with him, thinking especially about that issue of Batman that has Tim writing a letter to Jack about how be doesn’t actually know him (that Tim ultimately throws in the fire at the end rather than giving him).

(Batman #480)

But I think because Jack and Tim had kinda gotten to a place where maybe things were gonna get better between them (because Robin was no longer a secret) right before Jack died, Tim gets really stuck in those ‘what could have been’ thoughts rather than really… analyzing deeply the many problems in their relationship. At the end of the day while Jack & him had many problems and miscommunications, Tim did still love his dad and Jack loved him, and so when he’s gone that loss of the bond is definitely what Tim dwells on (among his other losses)

Then Tim’s whole… thing with the two fathers is complicated. Tim was already 16 when Jack passed and Bruce then adopted him about a year later, but Bruce had already been acting as a father figure/mentor since he was 13. It makes it this weird transition between ‘Bruce is kinda like a father to me -> Bruce is my father.’ and it doesn’t help that Bruce ‘dies’ not all that long after.

Thinking especially about Tim’s story in the halloween special, about him trying to deal with Bruce being gone by relating it to what he and Bruce had done after Jack passed. Tim definitely embraced Bruce as his parent despite the complicated relationship, and it just made the loss hit all that much harder, but Jack’s presence still lingers.

(DCU Halloween Special 2009)

The ‘for someone’s approval’ here as he’s at his parents’ grave always stands out to me. Even though he doesn’t go all that deeply into his problems with Jack once he’s dead, I think this bit of it/idea does come up- that Tim feels like he continually had to be searching for his approval. I think there’s traces of that all the way back in Robin III in his fight with Jack about being sent boarding school to boarding school/feeling he’s only valued on the basis of accomplishment. I think this is probably as close to criticizing his dad as he really gets post-Jack’s death tbh. Even though he’s framing it in a ‘this is what i’m doing- looking for approval’ sort of way, I think it’s in part Tim being aware of the fact that the way his parents were with him made him feel the need to push so hard to try to earn it.

idk there’s… there’s a lot there to go into and I agree it’d have been nice to see it explored more on page. But I get why a lot of it wasn’t, because so much shit was happening non-stop for him there wasn’t really space to go into it all that deeply. Focusing just on the angst of the loss itself rather than the complex emotions that come from losing a parent you had a difficult relationship with is definitely… the easier thing to fit in when Tim’s also going through a ton of other losses too. (and then I mean, reboot happened and it became moot, and even tho the reboot stuff is now undone it’s like… been so long and it’s so unclear exactly how much is the same as before that the opportunity to explore it has kinda passed unless we get a good in-universe reason to establish why he’d be re-examining that stuff now)

[stxleslyds]

Robin Jason, a friend and ally of the Titans.

PART 1.

Last Friday I was feeling extra rage-y after the news about the Titans mini with the Titans show line-up of heroes. I still think that a) Jason shouldn’t be considered a Titan or be in the team as Red Hood and b) that him going back to wearing a bat symbol on his chest is just bad but as @randomlut said there is a possibility of that book not being set in DC’s current universe and if that’s the case then okay, I will not complain about it anymore.

But this post isn’t about that Titans book it’s about Jason’s Robin’s appearances in volume two of the New Teen Titans!

Now, this won’t be an in-depth review of those issues from a story point of view, it will be a post in which I talk about Jason’s characterization and interactions with the Titans. Maybe I will even dive a little bit into why I think that the interactions that Jason and Roy have in those issues makes the relationship that they had in New52 very out of place.

Let’s begin!

·         NTT (1984) #19

Jason as Robin appears here only in the last page of the issue. After the current team of the Titans appears to be falling apart Donna calls Jason and others to help in a mission, this team that she puts together resembles the “original” line-up with Robin, Speedy, (Kid) Flash, Aqualad and Hawk.

·         NTT (1884) #20-21

Jason appears in the Titans tower along the OG Titans, when Donna finally tells them what the mission is all about (stopping Cheshire from interrupting a meeting) she asks if they are in on the job, Jason is not only excited about being there but about Batman actually letting him come all the way to the tower. A little bit of what Jason thinks or saw in Bruce is shown when Wally says that he “didn’t think the Batman could be thrilled by anything. He is always so grim.”

Basically, what Jason says is that the Bat isn’t that bad if you get to know him and that he cares about Jason’s education outside of vigilantism. Also, Jason seems to be grateful and very receptive of the things that Bruce taught him, he regards him as a very good mentor.

After everyone decides to help, they get on their jet. Here we have a very important interaction between Jason and Donna, she is telling him how she is feeling about the attitude of the rest of the team and about how she is a little bit lost now that she is in charge of the Titans and then she asks what Robin thinks about the whole thing, Jason is obviously thrilled once more, someone as experienced as Donna is asking him for his opinion? It blows his mind away! Batman never does that, he is always following his lead and never has a say on what they do so, to him, helping the Titans is only getting better and maybe he will ask the Bat to let him join them permanently.

Because they were talking Donna wasn’t paying much attention while flying and after they barely avoid crashing the jet, she apologizes to everyone and once more looks for reassurance with Jason, this time Jason is caught off guard but after Hawk teases him about his hesitation he tells her that “everything’s okay”.

When they arrive to Switzerland (where the meeting will be held) we have Jason’s first interaction with Roy Harper and him also slowly transforming into a burrito, that boy was cold and pissed off about it!

It’s really funny to me that Roy talking about Oliver’s pervy arrows is his very first interaction with Jason, who would have thought that a mad man would later make them besties?

They all go inside a building to get warm and for a while Jason is just chilling while the other Titans are all having an existential crisis, because here is the thing, Jason is a kid, he was presumably 14 here while all the other are in their twenties. Donna is having trouble with her new position as leader of the Titans, Wally is trying to live up to Barry, Garth is grieving his love, Roy is still very uncomfortable about being on a mission that involves Cheshire and Hank is just crazy. The others are trying to complete a mission while their real-life problems loom over them and Jason is just on an adventure with cool people.

Its not much later than Cheshire attacks the Titans, she first takes on Wally because he is her biggest threat and then detonates a bomb, now here I will give a little bit of context, Cheshire does not want to kill the Titans as of now, she just wants to incapacitate them because them being there is making her own mission more complicated, all I will say is that she doesn’t truly have villainous intentions and that she has a very weak spot for Roy.

Anyway, the bomb incapacitates Garth and Roy and Cheshire also managed to shoot Wally so only Donna, Hank and Jason are left standing to capture Cheshire, but here is the thing, Hank doesn’t want to capture her, he wants to kill her.

Jason has interacted very few times with Hank so far and it has always been Hank teasing him but now as Jason is going to fight Cheshire Hank interrupts him telling him that he will do “what has to be done”. Cheshire of course wont fall easily and I think that at this very moment she is thinking that killing Hank wouldn’t be a bad idea because he is going to mess her plans up! But not to worry as she is raising her gun Jason comes in to save his ass!

Jason is not a match for Cheshire and after that she quickly subdues him. But what’s important here is two things, first Jason doesn’t want or consider the idea of killing Jade, he just wants to capture her and bring her to justice, secondly, he doesn’t even want her to kill Hank, who has been violent towards every Titan and rude to Jason every single time that he has interacted with him. What I am trying to say is that this IS Robin Jason, he doesn’t think or act the same as Red Hood will in the future, he has his opinions on what punishments killers should get but he is not there to kill anyone himself.

There is this whole page where Donna beats Hank against a tree so he stops killing, because that’s not what the Titans do, she explains that if they do that then the public (that is already quite afraid of them) will just fear them more and they don’t need that, plus she believes that he is acting that way out of grief after losing his brother, as she is saying all of this though she is putting quite a lot of pressure on his chest and that might have ended up in her actually killing Hank if Jason hasn’t been there to stop her.

Donna is obviously not having a good time and after this she says that she “has had it” and that from now on Robin should “take command” because “its his group anyway”. Oh man…its clear to the reader that Donna is not having a good time being team leader but she also misses a certain person a lot. She is obviously not seeing Jason there, she is seeing Dick, the person that she is used to take orders from but he is not there.

Jason is aware of this, he might be a kid and might not have as many problems as the other Titans as of now but he is not a fool and he doesn’t want people to see someone else when they look at him, so he confronts Donna about what she just said/did.

Jason is just great in this scene; he just doesn’t want people that he admires to treat him as if he were someone that he isn’t. Just because Dick isn’t there doesn’t mean that he (because he is Robin) can replace him, they are not the same person and they do not have the same experience. He calls out Donna on her behaviour towards him and Donna being an adult takes responsibly for her actions and understands that ultimately, she was hurting Jason’s feelings. We have a kinda wholesome moment when they hug but because this is written by Marv Wolfman and he just can’t help himself, he proceeds to write Jason as a horny teenager. What a way to ruin the moment Marv…

Back to Cheshire, she is about to kick Wally’s face in when she decides to first tell him what he has to tell the others when they wake up, which is “Cheshire remembers”.

Wally tells the Titans Cheshire’s message but none of them truly understands what it means, Hank says that he doesn’t even understand why they are alive. Donna comes to the conclusion that Cheshire might want something from them and this is where Jason gives his thoughts, he says “Doesn’t matter what she wants. We take care of her. She’s a killer.”, its clear once more than although Jason (as Robin) wouldn’t kill anyone he does feel a certain type of way about criminals and wants them to be locked up.

After yet another verbal fight between Hank and Donna the Titans take a cable car to their next location, Jason is shown as exited about the view and the whole experience once more. When they arrive, they find Faraday (the guy that called Donna for help in #19) and he explains a bit more the situation but Jason once more is having trouble staying warm so he goes to the cable car tunnel nearby, but he doesn’t go alone, Roy goes with him because his “costume wasn’t made for this kind of weather either”, in this second interaction between these two we get to see Jason’s detective skills shine.

Jason has been watching Roy and he found his reaction to Cheshire’s message quite sus. Not only is he showing his detective skills here but he also said in a previous panel this: “The Batman keeps telling me to watch people’s eyes. And every so often I notice you become awfully agitated…like something was going on you didn’t want to be part of”.  Zdarsky, hey pal, I am talking to you, look at this dude! He read Roy like an open book, this is Robin Jason, he likes being Robin and he is brilliant at it, he is methodical because he learnt from paying attention and working with Batman, so, you sir are wrong, not only did UtRH disprove your dumb narrative but so does this interaction (along all his appearances in this book).

Roy is impressed by the kid, and yeah, he calls him kid because he is a kid…Roy is visibly older than Jason as he should, do you see it Lobdell? Yeah, there is no dubious age gap between those two as you made it seem. Roy is impressed because between both of them he is the one that is most experienced, not the other way around. How did Lobdell manage to make up a whole as run where not only were Roy and Jason close in age and besties but also Jason was better at vigilantism than Roy and Roy was the one being impressed. It’s wild, wild and bad.

Back to the issue, Jason taken out of the fight quite fast once more by Cheshire and she proceeds to talk to Roy, that’s where we find out that they were lovers and that she feels weak when she is around him because he makes her feel feelings but that’s not all, she tells Roy that he is “the man that fathered my child” …Oh and now she does want to kill him. That’s where #20 ends, so let’s see what happens with Jason in #21.

In the beginning of #21 Jason is conscious once more and when he hears Cheshire’s threat, he attacks her so she can’t shoot Roy, he also says this “Sorry ‘cat’ that’s a definite no-no. Don’t you know mommy’s and daddies should never fight” I, I don’t know why he had to say it like that…the 80s were weird. While Jason is being himself Roy is thinking “Don’t be cocky kid, Jade hasn’t got a sense of humour…” but because he wants to talk to Jade, he tells Jason to go, that he will handle Cheshire and he leaves.

Roy and Jade talk, Donna and Hawk are fighting bad guys and each other and at some point, Jason joins Garth and helps him take down a couple of guys, he also tries to make conversation with him but Garth is still not talking to anybody.

Cheshire tells Roy that he will never hear about their child again and that he needs to let her do her thing and stay out of it because he doesn’t understand what’s going on, Roy doesn’t do what she asks and she “poisons” him. Donna saves a guy that Hank was trying to kill. After Cheshire leaves Roy comes to the conclusion that she wasn’t there to kill the people from the meeting or that she poisoned him, but because they were there and everything went to shit now the people that were getting together are blaming the Titans for the interruption. The whole thing is a mess and the news channel are not nice about the Titans as a whole, but I am not interested in exploring that here. All you need to know is that the people that made Cheshire do what she did to the Titans were the Brother Blood people.

It’s on the jet that we see Jason again, he and the others are going back to the tower. Because the news are painting the Titans as bad when they are arriving to the tower Jason sees a lot of people protesting about them and he feels bad. This was his first job with the Titans and he is a kid, imagine how sad it would make you if you wanted to help and after getting the job done people were mad at you. But even though he is sad about that he takes time to ask Roy if he is okay after he sees him almost running away from the tower, he doesn’t get a response but he isn’t mad about it.

Jason’s stay with the Titans comes to and end and he says that he loved hanging out with them and is grateful for having been invited, he is so sweet!

·         NTT (1884) #24

Here, for some reason, we see Jason saying goodbye to the Titans again and unlike at the end of #21 Roy is there to see him leave.

I am not going to lie though; I liked this goodbye better it feels like it’s more complete than the other one. Here he says that Batman wants him back in Gotham but that if the Titans ever need him again all they need to do is call. He also mentions Nightwing which is funny because he will be called by Donna again in #26 to help the Titans get Dick back from Brother Bloods Church.

I am going to cut this part here because issues 26 to 31 have a lot of Jason content that I want to explore and I can’t put any more pictures here, also this post is already long as it is now!

I just love Jason’s little moments in these issues, him confronting Donna and reading Roy like and open book in #20 are my absolute favourite, I just think this is a nice way to kinda show how wrong some current characterizations of Robin Jason are and what better way to do that than reading and looking into some good stories.

Oh! Before I forget, in #21 Roy leaves the Titans’ tower to go see Jade and he actually gets to meet his daughter Lian for the first time, so yeah, that was a wholesome moment!