#relationship hierarchy

[stabbydragon]

I have this friend (who is also arospec) that recently got an online boyfriend. A couple days ago I casually told my friend “I love you” like I have a million times before and this time his answer was “I’m not saying it back. I’m saving that for my boyfriend” Your boyfriend who you’ve never actually met before and have only been dating a few days. I’m fine. Amatonormativity and relationship hierarchies don’t destroy my soul at all :’) I’m sorry I can’t love you in the way you want to be loved.

[autuboho]

[sirsophie]

told my close friends recently that I don't really consider myself and some of their friends who i sometimes hang with actually friends and they were shocked and confused, to say the least.

for starters, I have only hung out with their other friends like. 2 times every month, and even then I primarily talk to my close circle when we're all hanging out. so i don't really see how they would consider us friends? but yeah, i thought they knew this, but like. it takes me MONTHS of hanging out with people consistently and talking to them consistently (not just once a week) to even start to consider the possibility of someone being my friend. I have acquaintances and people I like being around, sure, but for me a 'friend' is a title that has to be earned through months of getting to know you. it's a heavy title and when I consider someone my friend, they will be my friend for a long time. i do things for my friends and care for my friends in a way that i wouldn't do for people i only like being around. acquaintances come and go for me, but people who i give the 'friend' level to, they do not go easily. idk maybe thats my aroace talking since I don't like the idea of dating, or marriage, but as the highest form of relationship to me is a friend, that takes a while to build. only recently (when this convo happened) realized that's not how it is for everyone

[normystical]

"you don't have to make it your whole personality" each lgbtq identity comes with discovering wisdom about different commonplace "obvious" concepts in everyday life and, if you have self-respect, the advocacy against those norms. norms that not only oppress people of those particular identities, but also kind of affect EVERYONE in society in a negative way. it's kind of hard for such a thing to NOT affect how you think and act.

[tangents-within-tangents]

There are these thoughts in my head, this feeling in my chest that idk how to adequately put into words, esp since i know i'm too nervous about all the ~discourse~ and caveats i'll have to make but

i'm just feeling things about the way amatonormativity devalues friendship

I could go on about it for ages, but right now it's the way that robbing friendship of value, of love, treating platonic love as less important, less deep, less real, than romantic love: it robs you of being able to mourn too

like if we reduce and ignore the ways that love and care show up in friendship we also reduce and ignore the ways that loss and grief show up there too

And the ways that it can show up differently than in other relationships

Like if a friend dies of course people expect you to be sad and go to the funeral. But if you say "my friend died" will people really treat it the same as if you said "my brother died?" or "my fiancé died"? And what about the ways you lose friends that are different from how you lose family or lovers? You lose friendships to time, proximity, and other relationships in a way you just never would a SO, and you're just supposed to accept it, as a normal part of life.

We all recognize romantic heartbreak, there's in-built sympathy and expectations surrounding break-ups, even the silly tropes of crying and eating ice cream or whatever. But what about platonic heartbreak? Not in place of romantic heartbreak, not a substitute, but as its own thing.

The unique pain that comes from losing a friend slowly and uncertainly. Not a dramatic falling out, or a death or what have you, something we'd all recognize and validate, and expect that you'd never see each other or significantly interact again. But quietly losing someone who is still alive and well and happy and moving on and we never even talked about it! Just over time stopped being in each others lives for no clear or defined reason, never knowing if you might hear from them again, never knowing that was going to be the last time you ever saw each other. Or, when your paths do still cross--you see each other from afar, you like each other's posts, maybe you try to hang out every now and then--but it will never be the same as it was. Not because anything went wrong, but just because you lived and grew and time passed, but you didn't do it together like you thought you would.

The unique pain of realizing that you are putting more effort and care into a relationship than is ever going to be reciprocated. Because relationships are two-sided but there's no cultural conventions, no labels or ceremonies or promises in place for you to ensure that your commitment will be returned. How someone can be so so important to you and maybe you're important to them too, but just for now, just until they find something else, something 'deeper'.

And then we see how it's all so cyclical, because the way in which amatonormativity devalues friendship is often the very thing you are losing friends to. And there's this other layer of pain in not having words for it. Not having a way to express and conceptualize this loss, because it's not the love we write songs about

idk if i'm making any sense. i'm in the post-therapy need a nap and calories but also having introspective revelations™ mode right now, which is probably why i'm waxing poetic but just

ahhhhhhh

Not just platonic love, but platonic grief! Platonic jealousy, platonic anger, platonic joy, platonic fear! Platonic heartbreak yall

[micobacteriumtuberculosis]

It honestly baffles me how even people whose marriage clearly blew up in their face still advocate for the idea that being in a committed romantic relationship is The thing in life. I had an argument about this with my mother and upon me incredulously asking what did her relationship bring to her, she said that, mind you, it helps her be better and "helps her learn about the other gender" (bc in her sad conservative little world it's the only way to do so I guess). Some context: she told that to her kid who spent half of her life wondering why her parents couldn't stand to live together and the other wondering why those two even got together in the first place. Sorry, hon, I don't see how this makes you better, I only see two losers who couldn't even get a divorce.

So, now that I'm done sharing highly personal aspects of my life, let me get to the point. How can someone whose life was pretty much ruined by a marriage can think the social obligations of being in a long term committed romantic relationship is anything but harmful? How are we surprised that people can live a full life while not being married? How the majority still doesn't understand what a shitty thing relationship hierarchy is???

Why do you need to be aspec to actually get it when this is an issue that touches everyone??????

[createdtofeel]

ok chat I'm confused.

listen I'm nonbinary and I'm still socially perceived as a woman (which hurts btw).

I've come to terms with the fact that I, usually, do not feel attraction towards other human beings and it's fine. it has its own specific conditions to happen so yeah. we're cool.

I also came to terms with the fact that I do not fit in a monogamous style of relationship and that I do not feel like living in a fixated nuclear family with weird and dumb relationship hierarchies. it's pretty cool. I feel a lot better.

the thing that bothers me is: am I, really, able to feel attraction towards MEN????? of course it absolutely doesn't matter whether they're cis or not, just I don't understand.

I've had relationships with men and I KNEW I wasn't attracted. for sure. I knew I hated them, the situation, doing it and I still played myself. I confined myself in a cage. I hurt myself with performative heterosexuality and I recognize that, but I also had one (1) relationship in which I didn't despise the man. I actually craved his voice. his presence. to see his face, even if just in a picture.

and still, to this day, I can't wrap my head around the thought that I might have felt this way because he was the prototype of the person that I wanted to be. I never understand whether I want to be the people I love and experience their life or just love them and experience life with them. and I feel pretty guilty about it.

I'd love to just know. to just feel. in the moment I felt really safe. at home. but now that it's been over (it's been kind of 5/6 months??????????? I'm ashamed) I still can't stop (now it got better. seriously better.) thinking about him. idealizing him. and I'm afraid I'm just fixated on him and never felt really in love.

I'm afraid I'll never actually feel love, loved, cared for, listened to. I felt like it. but I'm afraid it was all just a big joke. I'm insecure.

I just wanna understand whether I'm hurting myself or giving myself time and space to feel and try and grow. I don't wanna hate myself anymore. I wanna care for me. I swear. I do.

[queencolondarkwing]

Um…

some couple just approached us on fetlife and want us to eventually move in with them so they can financially support and date us. The woman also said she may want to have my primary partner’s child.

I’m not monogamous, but I’m beginning to feel I may believe in reproductive fidelity because the idea of that offended me deeply. We have been building a life together and haven’t had our own kids yet. I would at least insist we have kids first before he branches out, but this woman is older and on a timeline…just…I know it’s hierarchy…but ain’t no way. Kids are a HUGE commitment and not just some willynilly decision that this lady and her hiss and are talking like it is. I think she just wants a mixed race child tbh…

keep in mind we haven’t even MET these people yet and only started talking to this older couple days ago. I don’t romantically connect to people easily. We mainly are swingers/open relationship and not polyamory (but open to it). It took 7 years of slutting around before I got with my partner. I’m very picky. They seem to assume we wanna jump into a relationship. And also that they can create a closed relationship with us (he hates condoms apparently) when we are both very popular in the swinger scene right now.

like nah I don’t know anything about either of you yet. Chill. Let’s take things slow. I view them talking about us moving in as they’re younger human sex toys when they don’t know us yet to be a massive red flag, but we agreed to hookup in a few weeks to at least test sexual compatibility. We aren’t committing though.

[askanaroace]

i'm questioning whether i'm aplspec - aplspike, i think? maybe - but mainly, i am non-sam aroace, and i don't experience any romantic or sexual attraction. my friends, while acespec, do, and date.

my best friend recently got into a relationship and i feel insane because it makes me feel like i'm being left behind. it seems to be an alloromantic expectation that partners always come before friends.

as silly as it sounds i was listening to a reddit story where op was acting out of jealousy of their friend leaving them after they got into a relationship. while i recognised that it was an excessive reaction, it didn't occur to me once that op was in love with their friend; all of the commenters said they were, and that they were an asshole, because partners come before friends. but if i'm the only one that won't have a partner, does that mean i always come last?

again here - i think i might be aplspec, because i'm not sure whether or not what i feel towards my friends is "love" or not - perhaps some kind of deep attachment? the best friend i mentioned previously helped me through a lot of stuff so it would make sense. at times i definitely feel more obviously apl than others but i've never spoken about this with them for fear of their reaction.

am i overreacting? what do i do about these feelings? even if i don't love them, am i still wrong for feeling like i'm getting left behind? I don't know how to make sense of these feelings, i just don't feel as important anymore and I don't want lash out on them because of my own issues.

Yes, in amatonormativity, people are pressured and expected to treat romantic/sexual partners ahead of friends and friends do become a bit of an afterthought, unfortunately. I'm very sorry you're experiencing this now!

Since your friends are ace themselves, it feels worth it to actually bring this up to them and have a discussion. Before you do, I would consider what actions they've done that trigger these feelings of abandonment/loneliness. Do you hang out less? Do they no longer casually contact you? That way you can have specific things you can ask if they'd be willing to focus on with you.

I think it can kinda be extra tough to date as an ace but you feel really double the amount of pressure to adhere to amatonormative standards in order to be accepted and please your partner. You're already treated like you're somehow disadvantaging or even abusing your partner for being ace, so you can tend to hyper-adhere to amatonormative standards like upkeeping relationship hierarchies. But a conversation might make them realize the harm of this and that they don't have to do this. People worth dating wouldn't ask them to sacrifice their happiness.

As for always coming last, that is going to depend on your circle. There are absolutely people out there being relationship anarchists and working on breaking down these walls! Or maybe you'll happen to find a non-partnering friend or two! It's not an absolute guarantee that you'll always come last. A lot of people will unfortunately probably treat you that way - but there's people out there who won't, as well. I wouldn't just completely give up. Keep advocating for yourself and building relationships with folk who are willing to stand against these norms and value non-romantic relationships more similarly to you! And no, it's not an asshole move to expect to be treated with consideration by your friends! I spend a lot of time on reddit and the aspec communities there are pretty darn good - but by and large, reddit is really a cesspool for some of the worst and most stereotypical ways of thinking. I would not turn to reddit (especially relationship forums) for any sort of reality check or validation.

As for aplspec - there's a lot of different ways to be apl. There's actually two main definitions for being aplatonic, so there's a lot of flexibility in you getting to determine how you feel and if the label helps you or not. Also, if a label even just mostly feels right to you, feel free to use it! Humans aren't clear cut or black and white. There's a lot of room on a lot of spectrums. It's okay to have "exceptions" to the labels you use. I think if apl helps you understand and make room for this difference in the way you feel in regards to friends than other people tend to, then that's what the label is for. Also, aplatonic is about platonicism at its core. There's some aplatonic people who feel like they skip the friend-ness and go straight to being family with some people. They're still apl. You can be apl and have some sort of strong feelings or attachment towards those you're close with.

As for overreacting - feeling feelings is not a reaction. It's an innate response to a variety of internal and external stimuli. Feelings are just information. So having feelings cannot be an underreaction or an overreaction. Feelings are a part of how we decide what actions to take, and it's actions that have positive and negative impacts. So what you need to weigh is: what do you want to do with these feelings? Sit with them and think about them longer? Talk about them? Talk about them to a queer-friendly therapist? Talk about them with your friends? Talk about them with a queer support group? Make changes to the way you build your relationships?

It's okay to feel your feelings and live your life. In general, I hate the term "overreacting". It tends to be a way to gaslight people out of advocating for their own happiness. People are often shamed for "overreacting" by others in their life who don't want to have difficult conversations or take into consideration their feelings. It's always people either in toxic situations or in marginalized communities asking themselves "am I overreacting and being too sensitive?" and never the others asking themselves "am I being too insensitive or even controlling?"

You're allowed to want to make of your life what you want to make of it. That's not a bad thing. Your happiness and fulfillment matters. You should get to build a life with people who want similar things as you. You deserve a place to get to make room for your feelings and make decisions to build your life in a way that would make you happy and comfortable. You deserve to exist, difficult and intense feelings and all.

Having a conversation is not lashing out. It's okay to talk about your feelings with others and ask for what you need. It's okay to walk away from people, too.

[cassb3rry]

YES, I'VE ALWAYS SAID THIS. WE'RE NOT "JUST FRIENDS", WE'RE NOT LESS THAN A ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP OR A FAMILIAR RELATIONSHIP!!!!!

Amatonormativity is embedded in every part of our culture, even our language. When asking if someone is dating, one may ask if there's "something more," or if you're "more than just friends." The phrase quite explicitly places friendship beneath romance, something less than.

[nouverx]

*proceeds to drink the whole bottle*

Yeah Alastor you're gonna be loved and appreciated wether you want it or not :)

[autuboho]

[normystical]

ROMANTIC LOVE IS NOT INHERENTLY SUPERIOR TO PLATONIC LOVE

QUEERPLATONIC LOVE IS NOT INHERENTLY SUPERIOR TO PLATONIC LOVE

FAMILIAL LOVE IS NOT INHERENTLY SUPERIOR TO PLATONIC LOVE

SEXUAL LOVE IS NOT INHERENTLY SUPERIOR TO PLATONIC LOVE

Everyone's feelings are different! Believe it or not, some people see platonic relationships as the absolute 100% "highest tier" in their own life! In fact, I'm one of them!

[stormonneptune]

relationship hierarchies hurt my brain for these exact reasons,, why prioritise a connection based on its definition and not the connection itself...?

aro culture is finding it hard sometimes to enjoy romance media not just because it’s romantic, but because a lot of it portrays romance as being inherently more important than friends

if i open one more book or show or something where the lead forgets about/leaves their friend group to move in with and live happily ever after with their partner… why would you do that when the other people in your life are just as important ???

relationship hierarchies are so weird. like idk, if on a personal level you have specific relationships that are a bigger part of your life or whatever, that's fine. but if you portray that everyone must find one type of relationship more fulfilling and important and all these other descriptors than every other relationship in everyone's lives?

like. bruh. what about that fellow bullied kid who i taught to use the diagonal monkey bars in elementary school, even though I too thought she was annoying, because it was the right thing? what of her smile? what about the teacher that tried so hard to help me make friends, and her permitting me to stay inside and play with pattern blocks when I was done with my peers?

what about the teacher who was more like a mother to me than my bio mom? who asked how you were doing and cared, who spoke to us like people? what about the teacher who struggled terribly with how to comfort others, but earnestly spent two years trying to convince me to care for myself? he even assigned me secret extra work - to do something, once a week, for a half hour, that was just for me. he checked in and asked.

what of the friends who gently bullied me to eat more, sleep more as I processed trauma in college? what of a friend who gently and firmly told me that I was allowed to chose what I wanted without judgement while shopping until it stuck? what of the many amazing people I have built strong, important connections with, no matter how ephemeral?

[aromacaque]

do allos know about amatonormativity? do they know they're allowed to live a life outside of the cookie cutter arbitrary conventions society has laid out for them? "we're just friends we can't do xyz" but you can. "but i'm not aro so i can't-" no you Can. you're allowed to do whatever you want

[saltmarshnerd]

Friendship can be just as intense as romance. Romance can be just as intense as friendship. There is no one over the other. There is human connection, there is the strength of the bond that varies based on the specific circumstances surrounding each relationship. There is love - it may be platonic or romantic or anything in between. There is love, and it simply presents different forms.

Love doesn’t come with a hierarchy.