#the reason I got into Nightwing/Titans comics

[batcavescolony]

Minding my own business, watching so tv. I put on some cake wars and who do I see? GEOFF FUCKING JOHNS MY COMIC BOOK NEMESIS!

[celaenaeiln]

Ok so I guess this is a weird question, but what do you think about wally and dick being in a relationship? would it be healthy? would it last long? all those types of questions. I've been getting into dc recently, and I've been starting to realize alot of people ship those two, admittedly I can see why, I'm starting to like them too. Pretty sure I saw someone call them every Dick Grayson/Wally West stan "required phase", it would be a life if I said I didn't snort at that. But I've been curious if they would even work out, with their plans for their lives being so different, clashing with each other

Absolutely!

In fact I think that if Dick and Wally ever got into a canonical relationship, they would never ever break up which would be a massive problem for DC because DC needs their IT boy Dick Grayson to be shipped with as many people as possible. lol.

No but really the reason they're so great together is because Wally really, really cares about Dick's mental health. He's canonically made it his mission to make sure Dick is happy and safe and he loves his best friend so much. Dick has grown up with wally since they were tiny kids and he knows every detail of Wally's life and loves him. The Flash Plus comic is just the two of them being best buddies.

So considering the amount of love and care Wally and Dick have for each other. In Titans (2016) Wally literally writes a love letter to Dick. (they call it a friendship letter but c'mon who're they tryna fool.)

Titans (2016) Issue #15

Do you know what Wally does? He literally turns back time in order to prevent Dick from dying. Wally is retiring because he has a heart condition. He can't run. He can't be the flash anymore.

But.

Titans (2016) Issue #15

For Dick he killed himself.

I genuinely don't think it's possible for Dick to have a healthier relationship with anyone than he does with Wally. They're like cotton candy, white snow, salsa mix love. The purest, softest, fluffiest romance with a whirlpool of fun and excitement.

Something Wally mourns a lot in the comics is his loss of contact with Dick.

The Flash (1987) Issue #210

The reason they don't talk as much is because Wally is busy with Linda and Dick can't just third wheel a marriage. I mean he sort of already does but anymore than now and he would be living with them. Permanently.

I think the only issue they would have is the different cities. Neither of them would be willing to move because Wally loves Central City and Dick loves Bludhaven. However they would still be able to maintain a long distance relationship easily because even as friends they go on annual vacations, just the two of them, simply to hang out with each other. Also the occasional drop ins.

As soon as Wally heard Dick and Barbara broke up-

Nightwing (1996) Issue #88

The only time Dick and Wally have fought is when Dick is refusing self-care and Wally is so mad at him for neglecting his mental health. But even then it's more of a - fine. I'm leaving you alone for now until you get your stuff together. I know you can do it. - type thing. They would definitely work out despite the separate cities thing because Wally has unconditional trust and love for Dick and Dick loves Wally .just as much.

Besides, living in two cities is no problem for a speedster

Nightwing (2016) Issue #15

They're the classic childhood friends to lovers trope without all the backstabbing and betrayal stuff you see in movies. It doesn't matter if people even ship them or not at this point because if you asked them they would probably just marry each other and call it "bromance."

[hood-ex]

Was dick Grayson is wrong for not being a brother to jason when he needed it most .I seen lots of post about how dick is abusive towards jason when he is robin and jason scared of him because of his bad temper and it reminded him too much of his father willis todd.Many jason fans believes Dick is the worst brother compared to jason who always potrayed as good and reliable brother .What is your thoughts on this

All of that information is false and part of the reason why this fandom holds hostility toward the fanon Jason stans.

Dick was never abusive toward Jason. Hell, he was hardly around Jason at all before Jason died. And he was never really around Jason because he was with the Titans during that time in New York. He did, however, give Jason his phone number and Robin costume. He told Jason to call him if he ever needed to talk. When Jason did a mission with the Titans, Dick offered to stick up for Jason against Bruce should Jason need Dick's support.

Robin Jason was never scared of Dick at any point. If anything, Robin Jason is sometimes the one who's depicted as a prickly asshole to Dick. Also, I don't like to use "bad temper" to describe Dick, and here's a post on why.

Referring to Jason as a good and reliable brother is downright laughable considering his history of trying to kill the batfam. I mean, sure, writers have been trying to go for the more family friendly angle for Jason lately, but you couldn't even count on him being a good brother to Dick when Dick had amnesia. Like when Dick was being mind-controlled, Jason literally said that if Dick crossed the line, he'd be happy to meet him there. Like idk maybe Jason's priority should be trying to help his brother and not threatening to possibly shoot/kill him. And now more recently, they've got another writer having Jason say some variation of, "Dick, I love you." Like... Jason doesn't even have reliable relationships or characterization asldkja. Whoever is writing him won't be consistent with previous versions of him.

I have a post on Dick and Jason's relationship that should clear things up. Although, take note that it's not up-to-date, and I'm actually missing a pivotal interaction with Dick and Jason in it (in which Jason dressed up as Nightwing and started murdering people). I'll have to include that someday.

[allovesthings]

I think Nightwing really kinda has a villain problem, I was thinking adaptations and which of his villains would make a good one in a movie and I got a few but not a lot actually that are just his.

Blockbuster is the first one that comes to mind that is his completely.

You could also take Deathstroke, he is a Titan's villain with a special interest for Dick and he has been an antagonist in his solo before.

He has other villains but they are not great, And would need to be remade for the movie to have more substance (Raptor could be a good one actually).

There are other options though: like take a Batman villain who he has a lot of history with and adapt that coughTwo-Facecough but I feel like Nightwing needs to be established and have that history with the world and the villain before they do that.

They could take one of the batman Rogue created during the DickBats period like Professor Pig or Flamengo. They did it in the comics when Damian came.

The suggestion I am going to make next is a controversial one...They could make the court of Owls... His instead of Batman ? I don't know how I feel about this one,I'm kinda torn because on one hand, I don't really like the Court of Owls in general as villains for reasons but I don't know, maybe it could be interesting in live-action and Dick is extremely important to the Court of Owl storyline in the comics and they are kinda as much his villains as Batman in the comics.

Maybe Owlman could be a Nightwing villain ? Considering the relationship he has with his Earth's Dick Grayson in the comics, the weird attachment he has to our Dick because of that and the parallel/contrast between Bruce and Thomas ?

[evilwickedme]

hey it’s me from the Batman posts! (the one that left the tags abt wanting to get into Batman but having no clue where to start)

If its not too much trouble, I’d love any advice on where to start with Batman or Batfam(?) stuff, I saw someone suggest reading the Batman: Wayne Family Adventures thing on webtoon as an intro to the characters so I’ve been doing that, but I’ve got no clue about any of the official comics or shows/movies/etc. I’ve never read a comic series before so everything is super new to me.

I know different series(?)/versions(?) can be wildly different bc of different writers and stuff, I definitely trust your taste on what would be good / enjoyable bc the posts you’ve been reblogging are like 90% of whats gotten me interested in the first place

Thank you, and absolutely no rush!!

Hey I am legit SO happy that you sent me this ask this is literally my favorite thing to do!!!!

So to start with I do actually agree that wfa is a good starting point but for a different reason than I feel most people would recommend it. The thing about wfa is that it has a consistent design for every character, is humorous, touches not only on the main batfamily members but also many extended members, other noteworthy people in Gotham, and the batfamily's cast of friends and teammates as well. This means that while its approach to characterization is incredibly fanon-y, it's a good basis for how to continue. You read wfa, and you know that Dick is the first robin, wears ridiculous costumes, was batman for a bit, is nightwing, part of the teen titans... this isn't a lot, but it's just enough to orient yourself before jumping into some of the most convoluted art ever created, aka the comic world.

Another tip I'm gonna give you is to let yourself be confused. I think the people who end up sticking with comics are people who are aware that if they pick up a comic it's very likely the writers and artists have read and worked on comics that you haven't read yet or even heard of, so you're always going to be missing something. That's fine. If something is really important to the plot, it gets explained; if it's not, it's windowdressing. Often there'll be little boxes saying what comic and issue they're referencing, so if you find it interesting you can just go read it - otherwise, if it's not there, you can google it, or go to any comic fan and ask "hey do you know what this is about?" and if they know, they will answer. There is nothing a comic fan wants more than to explain how to get into their favorite character/s, trust me.

Anyway this has been a very wordy intro but here are some potential starting points for the batfamily!

Bruce Wayne

You know who he is. Pick up an issue of Batman or Detective Comics and he's there. Pick up an issue of any other DC comic and there's like a 30% chance he's there too.

Batman: The Long Halloween

Noir style, investigative, early in batman's career, two face's origin story

It has a sequel-ish story called Batman: Dark Victory that's almost as good

Batman: Hush

Batman: Year One

Frankly there's not going to be much information in this comic you don't already know, but also, it's a classic, so might as well

Batman: A Death in the Family & Batman: A Lonely Place of Dying (crossover with the new teen titans)

First story is Jason's death, second is Tim's introduction and arguably the start of the batfamily being a family

Tim drags Dick back into the fray in ALPOD. It's just sort of the kind of thing he does

Do NOT confuse A Death in the Family with Death OF the Family, which is a much newer story, and Not Good

Batman: Under the Red Hood

Jason's villain arc! More details below

Batman himself isn't actually my favorite but you know he's got some decent stuff since he's, uh, the main character. DC doesn't have a multiverse the way Marvel does - and getting into that would be a whole separate ask - but their elseworlds are stories about the characters in different situations. Some ones I've heard good things about include Gotham by Gaslight, Dark Knights of Steel, Batman: Last Knight on Earth, and I keep meaning to get into Batman: White Knight, which is a whole other universe on its own. I've been trying to get into more modern batman stuff and unfortunately I just haven't clicked with anything.

Dick Grayson

Guy has been in a lot of things. If you read a random Batman comics from before 1980, there's a good chance he'll be there.

Teen Titans and The New Teen Titans and Titans (1980s-2000s)

I haven't read enough of these to say much of anything, but he's a founding member of the TT

Nightwing

His post-Robin superhero identity. At first only present in NTT and occasional Batman comics, but eventually he gets his own miniseries in the early 90s, followed by an ongoing. Recently-ish started reading them and they're angsty and very 90s in a lot of ways but I'm enjoying it

Modern Nightwing titles also exist. For sure.

Batman & Robin by Morrison

In one of DC's ten million crises, Bruce "dies", and after a short story called Battle for the Cowl, Dick ends up becoming Batman. Damian is his Robin. It's an interesting time for batman comics, although not necessarily the best writing that Dick has ever gotten.

Batman: The Dark Mirror

Also a great story for the Gordons. Bruce is back from the dead, but Dick is still Batman in Gotham. This was my first even Batman comic and it's really good.

Obviously there's other stories, such as Grayson, where he becomes a super spy for a bit. There's a million and a half reading lists for Dick out there as he's a massively popular character and he's one of the characters DC is pushing the most right now. As with all the rest of these, these are good entry points; from there I trust you to find your way

Barbara Gordon

The original Batgirl, sort of (nobody really brings up bette kane unless they're pointing out that babs wasn't the original Batgirl, she's just not important). She appears sporadically in silver and bronze age batman comics and detective comics, but she quits being Batgirl shortly before being raped and shot in the spine by the joker in Batman: the Killing Joke, which I purposefully did not put on my rec list.

Birds of Prey

Babs-as-Oracle at her best.

Batman: The Dark Mirror

Babs' long lost brother comes back to town. It's fucked up.

I've been reliably told to stay away from her Batgirl runs - most people who are a fan of the character don't like that they retconned Oracle away and it's mostly not very well written. There's a comic called batgirls that lasted about a year that included her, and it's okay.

Jason Todd (my beloved)

MY MAN

Batman: Second Chances

Collected edition of Jason as Robin, so much fun. Extremely silly at times since it's the 80s.

Batman: A Death in the Family

For obvious reasons.

Then he's just sort of dead for 17 years. He shows up in heaven in a Green Arrow issue and is occasionally brought up or shown as a hallucination, but that's about it.

Batman: Under the Red Hood

There's a new crime lord in town and he's so smart and talented and hot omg I wonder who he is!!!!

The collected edition also comes with the annual that reveals how he came back to life

Task Force Z

This shouldn't be as good as it is.

Jason gets recruited to work with a team of undead villains

Jason gets called a hot a bunch of times, and is shirtless a lot. This doesn't matter but you know, like, yeah it does.

For Robin!Jason there's also Batman: The Cult - which I finally got my hands on recently but haven't read yet. For Red Hood!Jason there's lots of stuff, but most of it isn't very good or is actively bad. Most people will tell you to stay away from Red Hood and the Outlaws, and they're right, although the 2016 run is better. Most people will tell you to read Batman & Red Hood: Cheer, and they're wrong, it's ass.

Tim Drake

Frankly this boy has no flops. Or very close to it.

Batman: A Lonely Place of Dying

Tim figured out who Batman and Robin are at AGE NINE. Respect.

After this he appears in various Batman and detective comics issues, I haven't read any of these.

Robin

The first Robin to get his own ongoing! Like with Nightwing, it started with a miniseries (a few of them, actually) and got turned into a long running series from there. Lasted like 200 issues, too.

Tim FUCKS.

Not Steph's first appearance, but most of her appearances pre-2009 are in this series.

Young Justice 1998

It's insane in all the best ways. Cars have sex on panel. They play baseball to save the world on an alien planet. A power of friendship speech prevents the end of the world. In the first issue, a woman develops breasts so big she falls on her face.

This team eventually breaks apart and Tim along with 3 other teen heroes nicknamed the core four (Superboy, Impulse, & Wonder Girl II) become part of Teen Titans 2003, which I haven't read and is also a bit of a flop era fashion wise for everyone anyway. I do have the volume of TT03 where they meet the versions of themselves from the future and I plan on reading that soon-ish.

In the mid 2000s basically everyone Tim loves dies. Steph died in 2004 ish after a very short stint as Robin. Tim's mom dies, then his dad is murdered, and it's unclear what happened to his step mom, but she was in Bludhaven, which had an atomic bomb dropped on it. Impulse becomes kid flash becomes the flash becomes murdered, and superboy gets killed while saving the world. Steph does turn out to not be dead after all and Impulse and Superboy come back from the dead eventually but by God he's having a tough year BEFORE Bruce "dies".

Red Robin 2009

After Bruce "dies" and Dick becomes Batman, Dick makes Damian his Robin and nobody believes Tim that Bruce is still alive, so he steals the Red Robin costume and goes on a mission to save his dad!

Not a comic to read first because it's so uncharacteristic of Tim as a person, but definitely something to read as soon as possible, because it's ridiculously good.

After flashpoint/n52 Tim doesn't have his own ongoing for a while, but he does come out as bisexual in an early issue of Batman Urban Legends (2021) and he got his own ongoing called Tim Drake: Robin in 2022 which was ugly AF and yet cancelled far too soon. There's a Young Justice run from 2019 I haven't read yet.

Stephanie Brown

For her I would go to Google, bc I haven't gone down the rabbithole enough for her yet. I know her first appearance was in a batman comic where she became spoiler to spoil her dad's plans - her dad being a third rate villain called the cluemaster - and she almost kills him, so good for her. Afterwards she appears every once in a while in various comics, most notably in Robin, where she and Tim as Robin start dating despite him knowing her identity but not the other way around.

Robin 60s (I don't remember the exact issues)

Steph gives birth and gives her baby up for adoption

Robin 126-128

Steph becomes Robin when Tim quits for his still-alive-but-not-for-long dad.

War Games

Steph does a fucky wucky and accidentally starts a gang war which gets her killed

There's another Robin arc where she comes back and it turns out she was never dead, Leslie (the family doctor) simply faked her death and sent her to Africa to recover

Batgirl 2009

Her first and only solo ongoing, but it's really good

She also appears a lot in Cass's Batgirl ongoings, and occasionally shows up in yj98. Her most recent series in Batgirls, which isn't very good but her interactions with Cass are very gay, and we've all been shipping it for 20 years at this point, so frankly it's long overdue. Unlikely to become canon tho, unfortunately.

Cassandra Cain

She doesn't use a lot of words, so neither will I. Probably.

No Man's Land

Frankly I am terrified to read this, it's so many goddamn issues, but this is her first appearance. I have one "volume" and it's as big as the fucking Bible.

Batgirl 2000

She's the first Batgirl to get an ongoing. The one from 2008 I've been reliably told isn't very good. She's absolutely terrifying in the 2000 one, I approve.

Outsiders 2016

Supposed to also be good for Duke content. I think at this point she's going by Orphan? Idk she's had a lot of names.

Idk I prefer Black Bat

Spirit World

Mini series that recently ended. Soooooo good. Alyssa Wong is a top contender for favorite modern writer.

She's mostly a background character. Bc DC is both sexist AND racist. She was also in batgirls.

Damian Wayne

Frankly he's my least favorite of the batkids, but that's not his fault, he's been a victim of a lot of really racist writing.

Batman: Son of the Demon

Somehow both his origin AND an elseworlds that doesn't count. Not required reading, but Bruce and Talia are madly in love in this.

Batman by Grant Morrison

After UTRH and before Dick was forced to become Batman Morrison reintroduced Talia's son, who in this version was a rape baby bc apparently brutalia weren't in love and Talia drugged Bruce. Fucking fine, I guess.

His character growth during his time as robin is sweet tho.

Robin 2021

His only solo ongoing, pretty good

Super Sons

He had two team up comics with then fellow child Jon Kent, son of superman, and it was fucking adorable. Then they aged up Jon to 17, so they're still friends, but Jon has his own shit going on.

Duke Thomas

He's REALLY new, and I haven't read any of it, I'm sorry.

Robin War

Batman and the Signal - I finally got my hands on the first issue of this last week!

The Outsiders 2016

Frankly they should capitalize on the Duke & Cass friendship/siblingship more often.

Alfred Pennyworth

I haven't read it, but there's a series called Pennyworth about his days as a spy for the crown. Supposed to be pretty good.

Kate Kane

The Jewish lesbian batwoman of our dreams

Batwoman: Elegy

Her introduction

Also, it's written by Greg Rucka, and if he can do one thing, it's write sapphic women. I'm not even joking.

Get the newer edition that has both of her original Rucka stories

Batwoman ongoings

She's had a couple, they're both supposed to be pretty solid, I've only read a few issues here and there

Batman in other media

Animated: I'm currently watching Batman the Animated Series for the first time and it seems to really get Bruce as a character, even if Robin will be there one episode and his existence will be a plot hole in the next. The Justice League animated series has also been fun so far. Teen Titans have gotten a number of animated adaptations all of which have pretty strong followings. There's an animated show called "Young Justice" which is a Teen Titans show and I refuse to watch it (it has a very devout following, but all that means is that the Young Justice - All Media Types tag on ao3 is just the same as Young Justice Cartoon and I have to filter heavily when looking for yj98 fics). Lego Batman is a REALLY fun film, and I think it turned into a whole franchise.

Live action TV: I have watched the first season of both Titans and Gotham, but both of those were before I was into the batfamily as a concept. My impression of Titans is overall negative and my impression of Gotham is overall positive.

Live action movies: There are so many Goddamn Batman movies. I like the Dark Knight Trilogy, but even calling it "based on" the Dark Knight comic trilogy is giving it a lil more credit than it deserves. The Batman 2022 is massively popular with the comic fandom for a reason - I'm not a big fan of it, but I did enjoy laughing at the movie so at least there's that. Batfleck sucks. I haven't seen anything else, up to and including the Joker movie. Oh, and Birds of Prey was really good, but that's not Cass.

Video games: The Arkham trilogy is well loved and I have indeed just bought it, but I haven't gotten to it because I'm currently working on Gotham Knights and uh. Okay so listen. This game is a lot of fun and I will be finishing it. But it's like. Got a massively antisemitic plot point. I can't even say I don't recommend it, I'm genuinely enjoying the game a lot. But I've never seen anybody bring this up, and it's bugging me.

ANYWAY I'm sure I've missed a LOT but this is introductory so you know I'm giving myself grace. There's characters I completely skipped and I'm sure mega fans of characters I haven't read much of will be offended that I said such and such about them but you know it's only been about a year and a half since I started reading dc comics and I'm still figuring it all out. And I probably will still be figuring it out for the next decade. To me that's actually part of the fun of it.

[lygma-nygma]

Knowing the original reason(s) that Dick became Nightwing and then reading comics like Nightwing: Year One is just so annoying. Like what is the deal with more modern rewrites making everything surrounding Dick and Bruce super edgy and angsty when the original version of the story was perfectly fine?? It’s like DC Comics is on a mission to assassinate both of their characters to make Dick into a ‘sad boy’, it’s infuriating.

Original Pre-Crisis Nightwing Lore: Yeah I'm just kind of getting too old to be Robin. Like it or not Robin is forever and always going to be known as Batman's sidekick and I just don't feel like that fits me anymore. I'm the leader of the Teen Titans and I spend most of my time doing that and solo missions now anyway. I think I'm going to drop the mantle, take a step back, and find a new identity. Original Post-Crisis Nightwing Lore: I got shot and fell off a building during a mission and almost died right in front of Bruce. It shook him up and made him super afraid of me dying so he told me he wasn't going to run with a Robin anymore because he didn't want my death to be his fault. I was annoyed about him treating me like a kid and that he was throwing all the years we worked together away over one incident but he said it wasn't like that, he just hoped I was old enough to understand where he was coming from. I told him that there was no way I wasn't going to continue being a hero and he fully supported me saying that he would always be there to help if I needed it. I was still hurt by it all, especially when Jason showed up, but ultimately I came to understand why it happened and got over it. Edgy Retcon Nightwing Lore: I went out of my way to SAVE him and then I got PUNISHED because I didn't do it right and wasn't prioritizing Gotham enough despite my THIRTEEN THOUSAND JOBS but I'm not surprised because he's always been unreasonable and HATES ME so now I'm not Robin anymore because Batman is an awful person and emotionally abuses me. And just to be clear it's not like Dick and Bruce didn't fight before the retcon, frequently being at each other's throats is literally a core aspect of their relationship, but I'm just so tired of them retconning every interaction they have into some overdramatic spat. Way to completely strip Dick of all his agency as a character and turn Bruce into an empty cardboard cut out of himself. Hope the angst points are worth it.

EDIT: I also want to add that fights between Bruce and Dick used to have a lot more nuance than they do now. The B&D fights used to be caused by a breakdown in communication on BOTH sides, not just Bruce's. The 'Jason becoming Robin' fight comes to mind. In Batman #416 neither Dick's complaints nor Bruce's excuses made complete sense but that was the point. Bruce should have been better at reaching out but Dick was also expecting Bruce to be a mind reader and know how he was feeling without telling him. Dick left home without saying goodbye well Bruce was on a mission, Bruce assumed that meant Dick didn't want to see him and so avoided reaching out leading to the two of them not talking for a long time. Dick accepts that Bruce doesn't want him as Robin anymore in stride (he even smiles and shit about it) so Bruce doesn't realize that losing Robin actually hurt him, ex. It's that kind of fighting, the "I want to slam both your heads together" fighting, that I miss so much.

[suzukiblu]

I just wanted to say, yesterday I sat down and binge-read all your Timkon fics, as well as most of the WIPS, and I BADLY want to write some now. I've never really written Tim, tho, since I'm more used to writing Jason. Do you have any tips, or bits of Tim and Kon characterization you consider especially important? (The WIP I've made on my head, if it helps, is (Daemon AU) comics!Tim ends up on Young Justice!Cartoon universe, and he's very, very weirded out by how different Kon is to Conner, and very pissed off that this Conner gets a Daemon while his Kon doesn't have one.)

tbh it kinda depends on where you're trying to go with the fic idea, I'd say? Also why Conner DOES have a daemon and Kon doesn't, probably. Also-also, does Conner even actually have a daemon or is Tim just confused about Wolf or something.

Generally speaking, though, the thesis of Tim is that he is a ride-or-die guy who really fucking COMMITS when he makes a decision. Sure, he'll stalk Batman. Sure, he'll introduce himself to Nightwing and tell him he knows his secret identity. Sure, he'll put on the suit Jason died in to go save Batman and Nightwing from their own stupid selves. Sure, he'll be Batman's emotional support sidekick and lead Young Justice and the Teen Titans and try to clone his dead best friend and run around the planet solo to save Bruce from the timestream. Why not! SOMEBODY'S gotta do it!!

"Somebody's gotta do it" is a lot of Tim's motivation, from what I can tell, haha. He also comparmentalizes really well, is a very talented and skilled detective as his defining Robin skill, uses a bo staff as his signature weapon after convincing Lady Shiva to train him and was the dude who was smart enough to add pants to the Robin suit, and one of his more iconic lines is I think Cassie going, "you lied to Starfire?" and him answering, "I lie to Batman". Which he does. Frequently. Frequently and a LOT-ly. To be fair, Bruce is also a fucking liar, so he deserves it. Tim, however, actually has friends he will ADMIT are his friends without having to be waterboarded into it during an active apocalypse-level crisis.

The boy has no chill. He DISGUISES his lack of chill, but it is fucking nonexistent and the ONLY reason he looks "reasonable" is because his besties are the teen idol superclone with limited life experience and Stephanie "welp my dad's gone supervillain so I'm gonna go kick him in the dick with my intermediate gymnastics" Brown. And then there's Cassie "I'm just gonna ask Zeus for superpowers, natch" Sandsmark.

Also Bart. Also Bart is a thing. Bart is SO MUCH a thing.

So yeah, Tim is a full-stop no-holds-barred insane person, he's just also a better liar than any of his friends. Like so, so much better. AT LEAST THEY HAVE SUPERPOWERS, TIM. AT LEAST THEY'VE GOT THAT. He figured out Bruce's secret identity at NINE 'cuz he went to the circus as a toddler and Dick Grayson's flips were just that sick, and then just didn't tell anybody for FOUR FUCKING YEARS. Four fucking YEARS!! ACTUAL FUCKING YEARS. He just didn't think it was relevant, I guess?!!? So instead he just stalked them with his camera and took cool pics. So many pics. So, so many pics. And he skateboards.

Also he and Kon fucking could NOT stand each other at first because Kon was used to being a solo act and didn't want to answer to anyone else and Tim lacked the ability to convince him to listen to him and they just had VERY different personalities and priorities, and also for a little while in there Match was fucking shit up by pretending to BE Kon, and frankly it's a fucking miracle Tim and Kon didn't kill each other before they ever got to be Titans together, the way they totally failed to get along for the first YJ run.

Seriously, I think they actually had a literal fucking fistfight on Apokolips once, I think that ACTUALLY happened. In the middle of a literal WAR that happened. Tim. Tim, you KNOW better, buddy.

[dracoconcordia]

I think when it comes to Dick Grayson and his relationships Barbara is the safest choice and I don't mean that in a good way. There's not a lot to do with it and it only really serves to tie Dick with the Batfam even more. While is even more sad because the original reason Dick became Nightwing in the first place was to step away from Batman.

(Not to mention Barbara got deaged just to be put with Dick meaning she was never a senator.)

In my opinion him and Kory much better couple. There's so much potential there! It's no secret the Titans aren't the biggest Batman fan and vice versa, use it! Instead of making up tension in the Batfam use what's already there. Kory is a princess from another world, there has to be ramifications. And storys. Would her home planet recognize their marriage? It was canon in the 80s comics that Tameran doesn't have divorce so have a story were someone buying for power tries to kill Dick to marry Kory. Heck! Instead of the Ric Grayson arc (amnesia plots are overdone Bruce already had one during it again so quickly is lazy) have to where Kory has to go back home because her parents are sick and Dick goes along to support her not knowing when or if they'll be back. And while they're there have him discovers a possible plot to murder the royal family so he has to use his detective skills. Since Tamerians are so much stronger than him than him rely on his brain to get him out of dangerous situations. This can give Kory a chance to shine too showing her capability as a leader and have her dealing with the final threat alongside her husband.

This, and I think they're cute together.

[wesavegotham]

I don't think it was done with any intention, but it's interesting how there is a pattern of Bruce trying to find Damian and patch things up with him...but like only after several years.

The Injustice comics had Bruce realize that his way of handling the conflict might have kept Damian on Superman's side (and he voiced that epiphany at probably the worst time, mid battle) in...idk year three? Even later? I dislike the Injustice universe so I'm not going to look up when exactly that moment happened, but it was several years into the conflict.

The Rebirth Batman Beyond comics had Bruce trying to find out what happened to his son over a decade after he last saw him.

In the Future State timeline Damian had been missing for five years and it was Talia who instigated the search for Damian and got Bruce involved.

And in the main timeline Damian spent pretty much two years away from Bruce. I think Williamson said something about Damian being 15 now in an interview, it wasn't stated in text though, so...who knows. Anyway, Damian's estrangement from Bruce started with Bruce ignoring his 13th birthday which lead to Damian moving in with the Teen Titans and he only moved back in with Bruce during Gotham War (Which according to the events of Gotham War also only lasted about two weeks before Zur!Bruce decided to hand all paternal responsibilities to Nightwing) so if he's really 15 now Damian spent pretty much the last two years not living with his father.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but it's one more reason why I don't get what some fans of other batfamily members are so mad about, like...yes, Bruce will eventually try to fix his relationship with Damian. But only after he has dealt with anything higher on his priority list. Which Damian doesn't rank very high on.

[zahri-melitor]

if I wanted to get into the bat comics do you think it matters if I miss a few? Does it matter that I go in order and read every issue, or are they not that deeply connected? Every guide on the internet says something different about which comics are the essential ones for the batfamily and I am so confused. I don't know how to tell what to read and how to tell what isn't worth my time. Help?

Short answer: no, you don’t need to read all the comics. However you’ll find it a lot easier to follow if you read comics in arcs or runs, rather than skipping between issues following an appearance list.

Longer answer: ‘essential comics for the Batfamily’ is a question that resembles ‘how long is a piece of string’, which is part of why you’re getting confused - people like different stories, and what ‘essential’ means differs between people, particularly as some stories get repeated over and over.

Now I don’t know which Bat characters you’re interested in, so I’m going to give general advice. If you’re getting into comics and don’t feel confident about where to start, my best advice is ‘pick one character or one team’.

Maybe two. But one is better.

This is for a very practical reason. The best way to get to know a character is to read comics specifically focusing on them.

There are four general categories of superhero comic.

Family Title. This is a headline book. For Batfam it’s Batman and Detective Comics. Batman is generally tightly focused on the current Batman (usually Bruce Wayne), though other characters may appear. Detective Comics is more the BatFAM title - it’s still often focused on Bruce, but is also where you’ll find team ups, stories focused on rogues, sometimes story arcs about a completely different character in the group.

Solos. These usually have the character’s name in the title. Nightwing, Robin, Batgirl, etc. They star the named character.

Team books. Yes, there are teams within the Bats, but these also include other characters. You’re looking at Birds of Prey, Batman & the Outsiders, Red Hood & the Outlaws, Batman & the Signal, etc. More general team books are Justice League, Titans, Young Justice, etc. These are where you’ll often find stories focusing on characters who DON’T have a current solo.

Anthology books. These ARE samplers. You’ll get a taste of all sorts of characters here. Gotham Knights and Batman: Urban Legends are the best regarded.

Pretty much every Bat character you’re considering picking up has had at least one solo run. The simplest way to start is to pick up one of their solos and start there. (Their name is generally in the title). For some characters, you’ve only got a few choices. Open whichever sounds interesting/you like the cover art. For others, if you just picked up Nightwing, say, you’re staring at 28 years of ongoing solos at this point.

Now, you’ve probably heard or noticed people throwing around the names of different writers. What you want to do is EITHER start at #1 of the title you’ve picked, or start at the first issue of a new writer. Sit down. And read that writer’s whole run (or at least the first full story - that will usually be somewhere between 3-12 issues).

A new main writer on a title will generally give indications at the start of their story arc about where you are in time. They’re also considered a jumping on point - plenty of readers switch comics when a new writer comes in.

You’ll have an easier time if you treat a writer on a title like its own book. Don’t read issues #1-3, #7, #9 and #12 as those are the ones that have Damian in them; read #1-12.

If while reading a comic you come across a random crossover issue that doesn’t make sense, you have two options. Track down and read the crossover event, or skip it. I promise, it’s almost always safe just to skip over the issue (If you’re reading 90s Bat comics, it’s actually just easier to read the events and I can talk you through that, but that’s very much more Guide Dang It).

The more obscure a character you’re interested in, the more scrappy what you read will be. Honestly, don’t start with anyone less prominent than Helena Bertinelli.

Once you’ve read that story, skip ahead to the next one that sounds interesting to you. Keep trying for CHUNKS to read, rather than one or two issues. You’ll find branching out comes more easily once you’ve read a couple of dozen issues - you’ll want to follow someone to find out more.

I’ll finish with some suggestions for various characters:-

Bruce: honestly for Bruce, you might as well hop on board for either the current Zdarsky run in Batman (#125-) or the Ram V run in Detective Comics (#1062). They both work as entries. You will NEVER run out of Bruce comics. Just take whatever Bruce rec calls to you and read it.

Dick: Nightwing #1 (1996, 2011, 2016) all work as starting points. Also, if you really haven’t read a lot of comics, starting from Tom Taylor’s current run (you want Nightwing #78 2016) is probably going to be enjoyable, and line up with characterisation you’re used to seeing in fandom. If you want Dick as Robin? Robin: Year One, Robin & Batman, or Batman/Superman: World’s Finest.

Jason: I am not good on Jason, but you probably want Under the Red Hood (Batman #635-641, #645-650) followed by Red Hood: The Lost Days. Alternatively, I hear Red Hood and the Outlaws (2016) is better than (2011).

Tim: the three Robin miniseries between 1991 and 1993 make good intros to Tim, then dig further into Dixon. Alternatively I suggest Young Justice 1998. I personally would suggest saving Red Robin till you’re read more of his stories, just because it improves the more you know Tim.

Damian: look, go straight to Batman & Robin 2011, or Robin: Son of Batman 2015. Batman & Robin 2009 is far more uneven than these two.

Duke: We Are Robin or Batman and the Signal.

Jean-Paul Valley: Batman: Sword of Azrael #1 or Azrael #1 1995.

Selina: Catwoman #1 2002. Or honestly any other run of her solos, but 2002 is a particularly good starting point.

Barbara: okay, this depends on what you want. Early Batgirl? Batgirl: Year One. Oracle? Birds of Prey 1999 #1 (for Dixon) or #56 (for Gail Simone). Post-2011 Batgirl? As much as I hate to say it, you are the audience for Batgirl of Burnside. Start at Batgirl #35 2011.

Helena Bertinelli: Huntress #1 1989, Batman/Huntress: Cry for Blood, or Huntress: Year One.

Cass: Batgirl #1 2000. Then read Spirit World.

Steph: you have three options. Batgirl 2009 is one. Pulling a list of Steph appearances and following her as Spoiler through Robin 1993 is another. The third is reading her four issues as Robin (Robin #126-128, Batgirl #53) but that’s actually hard mode.

ETA: Kate Kane: you are blessed and basically everything starring Kate is a high quality comic. Batwoman: Elegy (Detective Comics #854-863) or Batwoman #1 2011.

[doraambrose]

fav comic writer & artist?

Hello! Thanks for the awesome question!

I'm not sure I have a FAVORITE writer, but here are some I do like:

Shawn Martinbrough took over for RHATO Rebirth for the last couple issues and us writing Redhood: the Hill, and I did really like his writing for RHATO, much better than Scott Lobdell

Gretchen felker-Martin wrote Jason's issue for Titans Beast world tour: gotham and it was hands down the best jason characterization I've ever seen since under the redhood despite him being a furry in it lol. She might be my new favorite actually

Geoff Johns wrote Batman: three jokers and I gotta be honest, for all its flaws (including some jason and Barbara), it'd probably one of my favorite series. The mix of the art, the exploration of chronic pain and trauma because of the joker, ugh so good.

Of course, I've got to give props to Judd Winnick for lost days and under the red hood. How jason was before he was retconned into being a sloppy stupid hothead, he was clever, cunning, sneaky, SMART.

An honorable mention is for suicide squad get joker, but definitely not my favorite

As for artists, me! (Just kidding) that's also hard to pick just one favorite, but I LOVE these artists

Dexter soy has such a unique way of doing comic art, but I just love it. He makes jason look his age and not, you know, a 50 year old Vietnam War vet. And I love the way Artemis was drawn as a strong, tall amazon woman with muscles and not, you know, skinny feminine woman like old style comics.

I also just LOVE Alex maleev for his work in suicide squad get joker. The people are drawn well, the color palette, it's all so visually appealing. And again, jason isn't 50. It seems like a lot of comic artists forget that most members of the batfamily are in their 20s

Jason Fabok gets a mention for his art in batman three jokers. It was beautiful. Same reasons too. I'm also a sucker for line art

Finally, one of my most favorite artists isn't even a jason todd artist but I wish he was. Bruno Redondo does a lot of the art for the newer Nightwing comics and I LOVE IT. The color scheme is so visually stunning, everyone is drawn so well, it's beautiful.

And call me a narcissist but I gotta add some of my own art in here lmao but thanks for the ask!!! This is very exciting for me and I love talking about jason todd as he is someone I've studied and read everything about for the last few years

I've reached my image limit so I might start posting my own art as well

[titansontop]

i couldnt reply before but here it is. Long asf.

@raven-harlot

What a convenient way to forget Nightwing's arc with the Titans, written by Taylor a few months ago, the beginning of his Titans. Where raven wasn't at all "just Gar's gf", right? Raven did things on her own, she wasn't there just to be with Gar, she had moments, she had a leading role, she had a role in the arc that was much more than just being Gar's girlfriend, did you forget all that? Raven having action, Raven showing her best qualities with Olivia…She was the best and more interesting character of that arc without doubts. And even though she was with Gar there, it was never like she was stuck to him, was it?… While Raven had a second leader role in this arc, what happened with Gar? Nothing (he wasnt there just as Raven's boyfriend tho).

Do you remember TT Academy? Where Gar was doing exactly what Raven is doing now? Being a moral support for her partner? (oh no! A couple that helps and supports each other!😨😟) I bet at that moment you didn't think that Gar was "just Raven's bf", no, I bet you were saying something like "they made Raven Weak! Raven doesn't need a man!" Blah, blah, blah.

Traumas? What traumas? You know damn well that the only reason we're seeing Gar's trauma is because of what happened in Dark Crisis; otherwise we wouldn't see shit about his trauma, just like we won't see the other Titans' traumas.

Do you know what character progression is? Something Raven went through under Wolfman's writing? Do you remember how she tried to have relationships back then? how she tried to love, right? Raven has been free of Trigon for years, stop the cap, she can express her emotions without problems since the 80s.

Stop the cycle, do you want Raven to be some kind of Redhood going through the same arc over and over again?

Do you want Raven to be exactly like she was 40 years ago in the damn 80s, when she debuted as an 18-year-old woman who didn't even have friends and couldn't express her emotions?? Holy character regression!

If you say that Raven is unrecognizable and a totally different character (if that makes you feel better, keep pretending that, I guess) then just stop reading the comics…easy, that easy.

Did you start reading a Gar comic, where Raven was only going to be a character in a supporting role because the comic focuses on Gar and only Gar, hoping that she wouldn't be a character in a supporting role? The joke tells itself. Did you want her to be the protagonist of Gar's comic? And don't say she's just Gar's girlfriend and nothing more when she literally had her own comic where Gar WASN'T there, no matter how bad it was, it was a comic of her, about her, with a story for her, Gar wasn't there(i bet you got maddd when Raven talked about him tho{1 line in a 30 pages comic, before you even say anything lmao}).

Before this new Titans comic what did Gar have? Nothing at all. Raven instead? She had the storyline of Unkindness, she had some small roles in that same storyline in TTA and Shazam(where she was also given some respect), she had an important role in Dark Crisis: The Deadly Green, and it didn't end there, she also had a big fight with The Spectre. Gar at the event, meanwhile, was only being used as motivation for Dick and nothing else (0 scenes of Gar with Raven or Cyborg even when they are the characters that should have been with him). (And not to mention the Titans United comics, those are not from the main earth, but Raven had a big role in the second one, and in none of them was she "just Gar's gf", i wasnt a big fan tho).

Oh and let's not forget the comic where once again Raven crossed paths with Trigon, and it wasn't the best thing in the world, but Gar wasn't there… she literally got a mini story for herself there in that Lazarus Planet tie-in, while Gar at that time only had the back up from Action Comics with Power Girl, where they once again ignored Raven and Victor and used Dick.

And there was also Knight Terrors: Titans, where once again, Raven wasnt there as "just Gar's gf".

Umm, no, just because a writer doesn't give focus to the character you want it means it is misogyny😂. There are 4 issues that don't focus on Raven, so he hates women? 😂, let's completely forget how he even put Donna in the role of leader in that mission(not much but is more than what she got in the last 3 years). They are setting up Beast World, of course they will focus on Gar. And even then, let's look at who's been focused on so far: Dick(who is Taylor's favorite and is being pushed by editorial as a super leader), Gar(who is being set up for something bigger) and Wally(who is part of a semi-plot from the comic). Vic isn't getting that much focus either, I guess that makes Taylor racist, right?… Don't worry, more moments will come for them, I repeat, ITS 4 ISSUES IN. Even Taylor has said that Kori will have more prominence in the next issues.

Do you remember the little arc with the Brotherhood of Evil and Madame Rogue?…who was the lead and who was in a supporting role?…oh yeah! Gar was the main character while the others were mostly sidelined… And that was by Wolfman and Pérez…

About the part of Taylor not knowing how to write women, Taylor isnt a perfect writer for sure, im not saying he is, and he isn't Gail Simone, he misses too, but yk one of his most acclaimed comics from marvel is a comic about a female character(X-23), right? Lol.

You say Taylor doesn't understand her, yet, he is probably writing the best version of Raven since Wolfman in the 80s. He clearly understand this character, and its funny that you pretend he doesnt. Cant even imagine how you reacted to Teen Titans Rebirth Raven🥴.

We both know that if Raven had these scenes she is having with Gar, with Donna or Kori instead, you wouldn't be saying shit. If Raven was saying "i love you" to Kori, or Donna, you wouldn't be saying shit…that's the funny part about this LMAO. You know your account isn't private, right? How do you expect someone to take your "raven cant express her emotions!!" seriously when we can see what you post? (And we can also read the comics...)

You aren't mad because Taylor doesn't understand Raven, you are mad here because Taylor isn't writing what YOU want.

Raven isnt the same character she was 40 years ago, just like Gar isnt, or just like Batman isnt the same character he was in the 80s or the 60s. Its called character progression(well, Bruce is in a deep whole right now lol). Raven has long passed her days of not being able to express her emotions, but you are saying she should go back to square 1?…

So yeah, I proved Raven in the past years has had more going on that just being Gar's gf. Raven by Tom Taylor has as well been more than "just Gar's supportive gf". And seriously, you were so mad about this that you made 3 posts complaining the same day lmao. You don't like it? STOP. READING. IT instead of reading it just to complain like a damn baby.

All that said, do you think i dont want more solo stuff for Raven?? Its really a shame Howard dropped the ball so hard with that story, a solo story of Raven that will barely mean anything at the end…

And…I dont know, how else would i find out about Raven's new content in this site?…

(seriously tho, you are in the tags, i could just ignore it, just as you could ignore the comics you dont like, but this time i decided i was gonna reply to such a dumb post).

[celaenaeiln]

Random question: what are your thoughts on Dick's and Wally's friendship?

They're one of the greatest friendships in DC and that's canon

Flash Plus

Idk about you, but I believe that if you do annual roadtrips with your best friend just because you love spending time with them, then you can't possibly be closer than them.

Actually their friendship is so special that they have an entire comic just dedicated to the two of them being friends. That's how close they are - "Flash Plus".

Wally always covers for Dick

Nightwing (1996) Issue #73

"Go over to best friend's apartment and pretend to hurl."

For sure they're childhood best friends. The ones that grow up together and probably took baths together but still sitting in a hot tub not even six feet apart because they're just that close.

What they call themselves:

Nightwing (1996)

They tell each other everything going on in their lives.

They're so close that Dick actually snuck Wally into the Batcave

The Flash (1987) Issue #210

And then Wally shit talks Batman just to make Dick feel better and gets caught

'LOOK AT THE WAY BRUCE LOOKS SO MAD. HE FULL ON HAS HIS HANDS ON HIS HIPS 😂😂😂 LOVE THAT

"*growl* *growl* keep talking. I dare you. *GROWL*"

Because while Dick acts as the world's emotional support human being, Wally acts as Dick's personal one. He always watches out for his best friend's emotional wellbeing.

For example, when Dick didn't want to reform the Titans, Wally explains why he brought it up. And why he's insisting on it.

"You need this."

The Titans (1999) Issue #1

"My mission is to keep you from turning into your guardian. Batman may be a loner, but you need a family around you." "You'd really join another team just so I could have a social life?"

Wally's personal mission in life is making sure Dick is happy, safe, and healthy.

He tells Dick secrets he NEVER tells anyone else

The Flash (1987) Issue #210

"I only told that story to one person. Dick Grayson...my best friend."

His greatest regret and sorrow is that he doesn't get to see Dick more often

If Wally had his way, Dick would be living with him and Linda since the day they got married.

The only times they fight is when Dick is being too self-destructive and won't listen to reason so Wally ends up getting mad.

When Barbara can't get through to Dick, she sends her failsafe to pick him up and knock some sense into him

Dick is literally depressed and wants to give up after he killed the Joker. He won't listen and so what does Barbara do?

Nightwing (1996) Issue #63

And thank god it works. Even if Dick won't listen to anyone, he'll listen to Wally.

Wally loves Dick an extreme amount.

"The Flash is disassembling an entire collapsed, burning building. He doesn't have super-strength. He's just working as fast as he can. He'll do whatever it takes to get to me."

"He heals fast, but he's probably broken his fingers several times..."

And Dick loves Wally just as much.

Nightwing (2016) Issue #90

"My best friend."

[leafyforreal]

https://www.tumblr.com/leaves-in-autumn/721300657973362688/thinking-about-how-the-one-time-dick-has-a-say-in

Your tags here are pure YESSSS FINALLY SOMEONE SAYS IT!!!! It's Dick's role how could he not have a say in it. additionally so often the whole Tim-should-have-Robin stance seems to have undertones of racism to it? Like idk how to explain it but I get intense vibes of "Tim deserves it 🥺 not that Other Kid 😒", or vibes of "Tim is the best Robin 😤 Damin should just go back to his mom he's too violent". Y'know? And in fics it's always Dick who needs to apologize and say he was wrong, not the actual adult who attacked a child because they were given a much needed wake up call and told to grow up. At this rate Damian will be Batman and there will still be fans saying Tim should be Robin

(Gonna go on an incoherent tangent here, sorry in advance. Also if I get any of my facts wrong, feel free to let me know lmao)

I'm going to give Tim some credit and say that, despite me dunking on him in the anti tag every five days, I don't actually mind him being Robin.

He's great as the character, has some good comics, and his interactions with the Titans are actually really fun to read and write about! You know, if you ignore the blatant sexism toward Stephanie and the "most obedient" Robin agenda.

On a more serious note, it's also hard to criticize how he got the Robin role too harshly, because from a meta stance there was no way to give the Robin mantle to a whole new kid after the previous one literally exploded on Batman's watch without it feeling really iffy.

But then they decided to bring Robin back, so really there's no easy way to write "oh yeah, Bruce decides to put another kid in danger like the last one" without making it feel super out of character for Bruce (which is something that most Batman comics suffer from anyway atm) and really annoying for some Robin fans (me).

To conclude this thought: I don't mind Tim as Robin. But I would like to talk about the fact that he feels like the anti-thesis of Robin.

Let me explain. From a meta standpoint, Robin exists so that younger comic book readers can project onto a character their own age. So within canon, comic book writers have to find a way to include a superhero kid without it feeling like the adults are being negligent. In DC comics this ranges from "this is fine" to "what the fuck." I would put Dick and Damian in the "this is fine" category, while the other kids get firmly shoved into the "what the fuck" box.

To reiterate, from a meta, outside the comics, standpoint: Robin exists for kids to project onto. But inside the comics, Robin exists for one of two reasons (depending on the run). Either being Batman's sidekick, or being an outlet for Batman to help process Robin's trauma.

Dick starts fighting crime to avenge his parents and it's implied that Batman makes him Robin because he knows that he can't stop him. The same is similar for Jason (also depending on the run), where Bruce mentors him in an attempt to keep him safe and encourage him toward a better path.

The Stephanie Robin comics are really short, and the writing for her was historically. Bad in that era. But I would headcanon that Batman's reasoning for allowing her to be Robin are similar.

Going against the wider consensus on this one by saying that Robin exists because Robin needs Batman. Not the other way around (no matter how many times modern Batman writers try to push that narrative).

Tim is the anomaly (lol spiderverse moment). And I don't mind that!! Tim views Robin primary as Batman's sidekick. He's there to support Batman. Batman needs him, he doesn't need Batman.

What I would really, really love for DC to do with Tim is bring that idea full circle and create a vigilante identity for him that he needs the same way that Dick needs Nightwing, Jason needs Red Hood, and Stephanie needs Spoiler. It would actually make me crazy like Tim.

Keeping Tim as Robin, bringing him back as Robin when Damian is still the canonical Robin, is tired. Which leads me to my next point.

Damian is a great Robin. I cannot express how much I absolutely adore this angry child as Robin. Moving on from the sassy, cheerful child in pixie boots to scowling sword child is actually the funniest move DC could have possibly made.

And he's deserving of the Robin role the most out of any character after Dick for two reasons: he embodies why Robin needs to exist and Dick literally gave it to him.

When Damian becomes Robin, it's Dick (as Batman) giving Damian a role where he can do good and see how the good he does affects other people. At this point in the canon, there's no need for Tim as Robin, because Bruce is dead. Dick doesn't need a Robin, but Damian needs stability.

Damian being Robin makes sense.

Where I really start hating Tim is when we hit this point in the comics. I hate how Tim treats Damian when he shows up (not surprised tho, bc Tim is the least empathetic Robin) and I double triple hate that Tim goes by Red Robin. It's so cringey and ASLDKFJ like sir please just move on?? Like the other Robins did?

I die inside whenever I hear the argument about how Damian "stole" Robin and tried to kill him. If we're calling what Damian did stealing, then that means technically Tim stole Robin, considering the mantle wasn't even given to him the same way Jason, Stephanie, and Damian received it.

On the "he tried to kill Tim" note, I would ask readers to examine their biases because I don't see Cass getting shit for being raised as a human weapon, but Damian gets blasted to high heaven. People really like to forget that Damian was coming straight off Ra's al Ghul's brainwashing. Dick seems to be the only person to actually understand that, and he also gets blasted for taking the mantle away from Tim.

I'm not sure if the comics are explicitly racist about the Tim vs. Damian debacle (bc it's been a minute since I read that run), but it sure feels fucking racist the way fans put the only brown Robin on blast while praising their white fave.

Sorry, this was a really long ramble just to say that: I don't mind Tim as Robin, but Damian is the best one. Change my mind. (You can't.) And also please for the love of GOD stop writing fics where Batfam members "apologize" to Tim.

[filthy-vigilante]

Since the fact that the current bat family ages makes no sense and absolutely infuriates me, here are my headcanon ages

For Bruce a lot of sources have him becoming Batman at 25, that part makes sense but that would mean, on my personal timeline, he would be 44 now and that just seems kind of old to me to still be a vigilante. So I headcanon him as becoming Batman at 22 and adopting Dick at 23. This puts him at 28, for Damian's birth, with Dick being around 17/18 and off with the titans and probably college. It also puts him at 32 for Jason's death. Currently, he's 41

Tl;dr Bruce became Batman at 22, adopted Dick at 23, conceived Damian at 28, and is currently 41

Pre-reboot established that Barbara was a couple years older than Dick, also that she became Batgirl around the time she was starting college. She graduated high school early at 16 meaning she was about 17/18 when she became batgirl. Dick would be around 15 at this time. I've seen some sources say that the events of The Killing Joke (and Death of the Family, which happens a few months after) took place when she was late 20s. This doesn't quite work with the Robins timeline as she was only Batgirl during Dick and Jason's time as Robin. 23/24 makes more sense on the greater timeline. Currently she is 33.

Tl;dr Barbara became Batgirl at 17/18, got shot at 24 and became Oracle shortly after. Currently 33.

Several different sources give different ages for how old Dick was when his parents died, ranging from 8 to 15. We do know that Tim was 3 when he saw Dick's parents die at the circus, so if Dick was 8, the timeline wouldn't be big enough for his and Jason's career as Robin before Tim at 13 takes up the mantel. 12 seems like the most reasonable age for Dick to be for the timeline. This puts him at 18/19 when he goes off to college, quitting the Robin mantle and taking up Nightwing. At 28 he takes up the mantle of Batman with Damian, age 11 as his Robin. He is currently 30.

Tl;dr Dick gets adopted by Bruce at 12, becomes Nightwing at 19 and is currently 30.

Jason's timeline is fairly straightforward. We know he died at 15 and was only Robin for about 2 years. So it makes sense for him to have been picked up by Bruce at 12 and trained for 6ish months and debuted as Robin by the time he's 13. Post death timeline is a little more shaky. He came back to life a few months after his death and wandered the streets for about a year. Talia found him and tried to help him recover, with little results. After about a year or so of that Ra's wants to send Jason away so Talia throws him in the pit. He's around 18/19 at this point. He does travel, training like Bruce did but I don't think it was for nearly as long and he makes his return to Gotham at 20/21. He's currently 24.

Tl;dr Jason became homeless at 10, adopted at 12 and debuted as Robin at 13. Died at 15 and returned to Gotham at 20. Currently 24

Cassandra Cain is slightly older than Jason, by a few months. We know this as she was stated to be 18 in a batgirl issue released in 2004, and a few months later in another comic run Bruce and her visit Jason’s grave and he tells her that it would be Jason’s 18th birthday. With comic timelines this could mean she is anywhere between 1y3m or just 3m older than Jason. Unfortunately I am not too well versed in cass’ history to make a chronological breakdown of her life events. 

 Tl;dr Cass is approximately a year older than Jason. Currently 24

Now that we are further down in the list the ages are a lot clearer. DC was a lot more willing to give specific ages to characters during the era. So we know that Stephanie Brown is firmly 15 when she becomes Spoiler because she states it. We know that she is still 15 when she is pregnant. After this her timeline has no exact age assigned to it except her death. Stephanie died at 16. This was of course later retconned out and she is discovered alive at 17/18ish and shortly after starts her freshman year of college at either 18 or 19. This is also when she becomes Batgirl. 

Tl;dr Stephanie is approximately a year older than Tim and became spoiler at 15. Currently 22

Tim Drake’s ages are fairly clear. He became Robin at 13 approximately 6 months after Jason’s death. He’s a year younger than Stephanie. He takes up the red robin mantle around 17/18

Tl;dr Tim is a year younger than stephanie. He became robin at 13 and is Currently 21

Duke of course is still a relatively new character for DC and one they don’t utilize quite as much as others. They have mentioned his age multiple times in the past several years but is always 16. I do find this hard to let be, as I believe he was also stated to be 16 during the Robin War/We are Robin…. Personally, just to give the guy some range and growth for his age, i do headcanon him as 15 during robin war, where he became a more recurring character in DC and probably about 13 when he is initially introduced. Currently he should be around 17.

Tl;dr DC hates Duke and refuses to think about his age. He was 15 during the Robin War arc, and is currently 17

Damian is another one that is too straight forward as DC is spoon feeding us every next birthday of his. He was 10 when introduced and shortly thereafter became Robin. Most sources state that he also died at 10 but I don’t find the timeline big enough for that so I am going to place him at 11 for that . He was only dead for a couple of months before being resurrected, which would be around 11/12. I believe he just turned 14.

Tl;dr Damian was 10 when introduced and became Robin, Died and resurrected at 11 and is currently 14

TL;DR

Bruce 41

Barbara 32 

Dick 30

Cassandra 24

Jason 24

Stephanie 22

Tim 21

Duke 17

Damian 14

[dailycass-cain]

How I Came to Appreciate Batgirl: Redemption Road More...

Once upon a time, I wasn't really fond of this story. I hated and loathed it. Since 2020 however, I gained a greater appreciation for the mini-series. Now it isn't on the top tier of Cassandra Cain stories, but I don't see it lower tier list anymore.

Why?

Well, I'm going to tell you, and maybe you'll appreciate this story too.

I fully confess this story more as a "Schrödinger's Cassandra Cain" story. There is a lot of bad in it, and yet there is a lot of good in it. First off, the one element I do enjoy is the art by Jim Calafiore.

There's a grit Calafiore brings to this story. It helps balance the good and the bad. The good is that he draws a very scary Cass. That and I do enjoy the opening homage to a certain two-clawed Wolverine in the opening spread:

Now for the very title of the series, you can interpret "redemption road" as two-fold: in writer Adam Beechen redeeming not only Cassandra in the eyes of the Bat-Family but redeeming himself with readers for well turning her heel back in Robin #150 and "Titans East" (Teen Titans #42-47). Cause let's face it-- it was not a good story by any means and did neither Cass or Beechen any further favors (but I digress, Geoff Johns, plotted that all out and there are "reasons" for Slade getting away free).

You have those factors and this little tale. So at Wizardworld Chicago 2008 I attended a panel where the infamous Dan DiDio revealed that Beechen bugged him for pitches and the one of approved was this mini.

He also revealed Beechen was the only one pitching stories on Cass (which was a half-lie, if you've seen my "Lost Tales of Cass" post, you know Chuck Dixon had a fill-in issue of Detective Comics ready to go telling how Cass/Bruce mended).

Course, by this time period Dixon was exiting Robin and Batman & the Outsiders so, yeah it was a "half-truth".

That made me angry back then, but now I see the why, and I'm okay with it. In his original ways of writing Cass, Beechen's attempts were-- not good. This was his chance to show readers he had really looked into the character's history and fix these issues that he himself put in.

Think about it we came from this in Robin #152:

To this. Beechen calling out the grand problem within the Bat-books (even now it seems). Cass is important in the Bat-Family, SO TREAT HER AS SUCH. Which he does by having Alfred (of course) pointing these things out.

But Alfred isn't the only one being meta in this story. I didn't even realize it, until 2020, but there is one other character playing a meta part in this comic, Nightwing.

If there's one HUGE gripe with this particular volume it is the relationship of Cass/Dick in it. We went to them being brother/sister.. to well. We have Dick literally acting like a dick to her.

Then it hit me.

Who was writing Nightwing at the time period? Peter Tomasi. Who treated the character of Cassandra like what Alfred says? Then suddenly Dick's characterization here began making sense much more sense (when you have this going right after this series as if that writer was flipping off Beechen) in Tomasi's final page of Nightwing:

Cass was supposedly living in the Manor at this time (per this story). Funny how she was "forgotten" in Nightwing. I guess Tomasi was REALLY spiteful because he revisited this subplot during the New 52 Batman & Robin too with Bruce even twisting the knife further:

Though for Beechen's purposes he revisits on WHY Cassandra should be a key member of the Bat-Family. Not only that, but Cass goes thru a journey that explores the limits of the Bat-Family's underlying culture of vengeance. And she reaches a natural conclusion to this (more on that later).

So let's get to the real bad. No not the 90s designed goons of David Cain or Deathstroke. No not the David Cain characterization. I'm talking about #1's wall of text that would make even Brian Michael Bendis blush.

This is only one page of it in the issue. We got TWO.

Until this issue, we never really got a "defined" timeline of Cass's EVIL period. We just figured OYL, Supergirl #14, Robin #161-162, and Titans East was how it happened. Turns out we were WRONG. Did we really need to see these pages of text? Not really.

In all honesty, I think a simpler solution would have been just tiny panels of Cass seeing the various people she killed when drugged up. At the very least, it would put faces on those Cass was forced to do. You could feel her rage on why she's hunting Slade/David Cain then.

Plus it feels like we're missing something as Tim was basically like Dick in Titans East. But now he's changed. Why? There could have been panels of Tim showing care for Cass in this. Instead, he just feels muted throughout this mini.

The first issue ends with Cass confronting another mystery lady murdering some of Slade/David Cain's assassins. And again, a problem I have with this mini.

These "children of Cain" feel so nameless save for Marque, who is the opposite of Cass. She embraces the violence that she was taught and is David Cain's own Frankenstein Monster. Throughout the mini she just comes off as superfluous and edgy. Really edgy...

I really think Beechen missed a prime chance here in having Cass trying to save someone like herself. Someone unlike Cass, didn't realize life as much as she did. That finally, Cain cracked the code (with help from the Slade juice). And Cass could try to redeem her.

So this whole theme of redemption could be all over the place then. Marque throughout this just feels, meh. Speaking of meh say hello to meaningless male love interest #3 for Cass.

This subplot just feels pretty meh. I get the why Beechen tried it. The writer from Batman: City of Light attempted this. Dylan Horrocks with Black Wind during his run on Vol. 1, and Andersen Gabrych attempted this in his run with Zero (and let's face it we only remember his name because he died).

The whole love subplot just feels so unnecessary here. Again we could have more stuff with Tim helping her. Something. Instead, we get someone we care little about. Because A.) we've seen it before and are so over it.

B.) Compare it with Shadow of the Batgirl which did this right. It balanced everything by showing Cass being the focus here (you know the actual main character), and less on the intended male love interest (until later when she gets to know him, Erik, more as the reader does too)

Which leads to this positive in #2. In one page we are given Babs realizing what Cass has been up too and is all for her going on this quest (probably knowing where this will end). Which is again, a good contrast to where Babs and Cass are here. Babs knows Cass needs this.

Bruce doesn't. Dick SOOOOO doesn't. But Babs fully understands. And I do love me some Babs being a good mentor.

Another positive in this issue does is laying the groundwork on how David Cain/Deathstroke forged this partnership when Cass/Marque visit a former colleague of both men.

That these two knowing one another was hinted at in Batgirl Vol. 1 by Kelley Puckett himself when Cain told Bruce in #5 of a job that was beneath him, Slade, and Lawton's talents. So in that regard, that's a nice callback.

Speaking of callbacks, you can't have Cass hunting Slade and not have run into Ravager (who was also actively hunting her father too during this time period of DC). And here the two's interaction is hit or miss.

Rose equally has a grudge against Slade for pulling the same stuff that he did to Cass. So they can easily relate to the other. Also, you have a built-in Rose going to more extremes than Cass (thanks to Sean McKeever's underrated Teen Titans run character arc involving her).

This is why Marque again comes off as the third wheel in all of this. If you're reading DC Comics at the time (or even now). You want the Cass/Rose interactions here. You don't care about the gritty edgy third person who's ruining the antics between the other two.

Like literally, the tension between Cass/Rose should be all that you need. There's history between them both. There are similar goals each wants. But it comes off as meh throughout this due to Marque. I mean look at this panel below and tell me who sticks out as the sore thumb?

Cause then you have panel later on in the book that makes you want to fist pump with these two now that are Marqueless. Who doesn't want to read THAT?!

Look, the idea of Marque is intriguing but there should have been a clear subject spawned from Deathstroke/David Cain's alliance. An assassin. A roadblock. A hurdle. Not nameless ninja assassins with badly designed outfits.

If this was just Marque fighting Rose/Cass then at least the fight could have meant more meaning. A face to go along with someone who's being down there as Rose/Cass got away from their murderdads.

Because there's no weight to any of these fights which should have more impact. Instead, they come off as weightless. And more blood spilled by Marque because the EDGE MUST FLOW!

But if #3 has another problem is Dick really being a bastard. Seriously, WHAT THE HELL DICK?! But then again, I get it now on why Dick is acting as such. Just that this bad characterization does come at the expense of Nightwing. Like WOW.

So here I am bashing the heck out of this third issue, with very little good finding in it. Well, there is one other additional good. That's the opening page/panel when Cass is out (due to Rose from last issue).

Where does this love of Cass/Shiva together come from? This comic! Beechen of all writers laid the seed that Bryan Edward Hill in Batman & the Outsiders and Michael Conrad & Becky Cloonan on Batgirls would use. The hidden desire Cass has: she wants Shiva to be a mother to her. Yes, Barbara is a good mother too (and dammit where is she in this panel above?!)

Regardless, Beechen does understand a want Cass has that James Tynion opened (and failed at) while Hill fleshed out WAAAAAAY more. So much more that now this has to be the standard of their relationship now. Literally, this is just gold between the two of them now.

But if you want to know where this hunger for Cass/Shiva to have an actual daughter/mother relationship came? You can thank Adam Beechen for that!

#4 finally has the long-awaited fight between Cass and Slade with it well being quite lackluster thanks in due part to Marque and the nameless daughters of Cain.

But I do confess there are a few dialogue pieces in #4 I do enjoy. Like Slade twisting the mental knife to get the better of Cass here.

We get no cathartic scenes for either Rose or Cass here (everyone seems to get robbed of having them with Slade at this time period in DC). Just a rushed end to a rushed subplot.

Again, this could have been the point where Cass was reaching to Marque and that could have been the point for Slade to decide, "WHELP TIME TO EXPLODE AND RUN!" Setting up the next issue. Instead, these nameless kids all die and we the reader feel nothing for them.

When in fact we should feel more. But so it is comics and we get the abrupt ending of the Cass/Rose union. Because this is all we get of Slade and her after this issue. Which is a pity.

Again given how both have similarities with horrible fathers. There should be much pathos here between Cass/Rose. How Cass sees going down this path of vengeance can poison you still (as it is doing to Rose). With Marque being.. ugh.

If that wasn't enough we get again nameless male love interest and ugh. Yeah, I'm just not gonna post more of that. Other than Cass realizes just who Slade and her pop would target to announce their alliance but also hurt the heroes: Oracle.

Which makes complete sense. I just wish the comic did a better job with it like Bruce Wayne: Murderer did only now David Cain this time going after Barbara (as he went after Bruce in that event story). There's a lot of things this comic could have done better at.

#5 opens with Dick, Bruce, and Tim fighting Cass due to the former ratting out her plans to kill David Cain to the latter two. Still, it is kind of cathartic Dick getting punted.

...

I hate myself for enjoying that.

If you're expecting any sort of closure between Dick/Cass here you aren't going to get any in this series. Dick continues to be a dick to Cassandra in Frank Tieri's fill-in arc of Batman & the Outsiders #13-14. After that, Dick FINALLY stops acting so OOC.

Here we go back into the positives of this series. I do enjoy Cass scoping the eventual scene of the crime out. She looks at the evidence she's got and with her skills predicts how and where her father will try to take the shot at Babs.

These pages come to show that Cass indeed can be a fine detective on her own right (thanks to Babs, Bruce, and Tim teaching her). Knowing how and when the crime could occur before it even does with what she knows.

And so we get probably the second-best part of this series. These next two pages.

I mean it's not Damion Scott, but Calafiore does have the nice little details here and there. Also nice of Beechen to use TWO homages of Cass here. From this set-up shot from Vol. 1 from above too…

To Cain about to strike a Gordon down and once again, his daughter stops him from taking the killshot. There's a bit of poetry there.

So in some callbacks, the creative team does nail them. I have to confess other than Marque, #5 is probably the portion of the story where it actually gets good. Even if it does come at the small price of David Cain's characterization.

Look, yes David Cain is a monster, but there's a difference between monsters who aren't portrayed as human and the ones who are. Cain had a perfect balance of this in Vol. 1 The stuff in this volume (and until again Shadow of the Batgirl) David just is a complete monster.

In that regard, the pathos of the villain just feels more hollow. If save Slade talked to him while in prison. Told him he could perfect and deliver that perfect child soldier. Bring a reason for his life again. I'd buy that more than what we got here in Vol. 2.

Why going into the final issue why I go into that mindset. It helps the reasons flow better for the character then what we actually got. And the ultimate fight between the two is handled well.

I also love that both Babs/Bruce are doing crowd control here (both at this point knowing this is something Cass NEEDS). I love that Charlie sees what is going on and her first instinct is to help Cass.

It's a pity we never got more interactions between Charlie/Cass. If only there were some subplots that could have been dropped so we could have got that.

While we don't get the cathartic stuff with Slade we do get it with Cass going up against her father. Just unloading the life he never gave her with a fury.

It's an almost Return of the Jedi moment of Vader/Luke's final duel with Cass just unleashing it all on her own father who cannot defend himself against the rage of his child. And much like Vader/Luke there's that moment when the later realized what will happen if he continues.

Like Luke, Cass has that realization too. That if she has her vengeance what will it solve? All this pain. All this suffering that's she has dealt with these last few months. Will killing him solve it? Of course, we know the answer cause it's Cass.

No. Being a killer is not who she is. She is a hero. So she attempts to save her father, but well as we find out this is where Bruce and Tim were hiding. Waiting and watching to see if Cass would come to this realization.

And we come to the best moment of this comic where Bruce puts his batdad side full-on. I love that the focus is on Cass here. Hearing what Bruce is saying and you just see the raw emotion of her just cracking up wanting this so bad until...

The hug from her true dad with a proud brother looking on. If only you know a stupid tie-in didn't have to ruin the good moment making any readers go, "What the hell is R.I.P.?!"

Like seriously, I'm surprised no one has photoshopped that R.I.P. out of the panel. If you take it out. Damn does this work more. But by putting it in there. "Oh yeah, Bruce is about to die. ...." And that emotion just leaves you to do this.

So if any of you great Photoshoppers out there can take that R.I.P. out? That'd be just great.

So Batgirl vol. 2 looking under this lens isn't the worst Cass story, nor does have enough good to be amazing to recommend. It's just there with both good and bad. It's average.

Hence it is Schrödinger's Cass. It is exactly this. But it was worth talking about. Because it is a period of Cass that should be talked of more. Because it does redeem Adam Beechen with the character.

Along with redeeming Cass with the Bat-Family. It's just a pity only Frank Tieri decided to follow on this and NO OTHER WRITER. Sadly not soon after we'd be getting the teases that Babs would be back as Batgirl from the Blackest Night mini caps at the end of BoP and Nightwing.

For certain folk at DC already made up their mind with the character, and she wouldn't be Batgirl or apart of the Bat-Family that much longer. I guess they assumed this Volume would be considered a "gift". That Cass got closure... Ugh.

If you want to know more about DC meddling. Then see here when I go more into detail on that.

That said, Batgirl Vol. 2 gets a lot of bad rap, but it isn't all bad. It's highly flawed, but there is some good in it. … And here's me going all RoTJ fully with it. 😋

With that, I'm gonna call it a night. Because tomorrow there are things I hope for tomorrow. REALLY AMAZING THINGS for us Cass fans tomorrow at long last.

But not freaking Batman/Catwoman: Gotham War. That can go to hell...