#this doesn't just apply to dissociative disorders

[oursystemblog]

is wishing you could be a system a symptom of being one? i was reading your blog yesterday and i got very very sad, and other system content will often make me sad because i relate to feeling like, in system terms, an original personality/memory holder who is too sad and traumatized to function and doesnt want to front, only its like i always have to be me no matter how much i hate me, and hate existing. so as a result i just dont function really. i relate to stuff you said about shutting down when in too much distress, like going emotionally numb, and i also dissociate a lot. but even when my mind is on something else and im acting different, its not really like switching to a different mode of awareness. i think it might be better if it was. i wish i was an alter so i could go dormant forever. im scared that its too late to completely rehaul how i conceptualize... living, thinking, being, etc... im scared i have to be me forever. im not sure this is a normal or appropriate way to feel... and im sorry for asking something so emotionally loaded too. i dont even know what im asking really... i guess just, if you have any advice, and if you ever felt this way before you realized you were a system, and how you realized. thanks if you answer. sorry

Hi, i wanted to try and write a helpful response however it ended up being Way Longer than i expected to say anything substantial so it's under the cut

I can't really give a 100% certain answer to your question—Symptoms like emotional shutdown and dissociation in response to stress/trauma are also possible without necessarily being a system, ultimately I can't say whether or not you are one (it took me a while to even say whether or not I was one haha). I personally didn't have the experience of wishing i could be a system before i figured it out, but I think I've heard from some other systems that they did experience that; I suppose it's different for everyone.

i'd try to give a more helpful response about how i realized i was a system but i actually don't remember very much about it—I guess I was always aware that I had an "other state" of myself with Very distinctly different mannerisms from my own who was pretty consistently "triggered out" by specific situations (the other state was also aware of themself like "oh, i'm in This Mode again"), and then eventually i thought "that might not be normal actually" and started researching about dissociative disorders some more

Regardless of whether or not you have alters/are an alter, I don't think going dormant would solve the problem, even though I absolutely understand the feeling. While we were still discovering our system we were in a pretty bad place, and when we discovered our own emotion-holder she was very angry and sad—which scared me initially, and i Kind of Wished that she would disappear or that I could just be A Normal Regular Singular Person. A while later I calmed down and realized it was not productive to wish things like that, so I tried talking to her and telling her that it was okay to feel angry, but that things can be better now than in the past and we are capable of healing—treating her with compassion

I think having a conversation with A Literal Part of Myself that held our anger and sadness was helpful, but I also think it's possible to do something similar even if you're not a system—to treat yourself with compassion too, I guess is what I'm getting at here.

I didn't think it would get better, but it did. I mean it took a while and there were ups and downs , but as long as you're still here it is never to late to learn to live again and to recover

Ultimately, everyone's circumstances are different and maybe what helped me doesn't apply the same way to you, but please try to remember that things can get better. Healing is possible, i wish you the best

[healingheartssociety]

Why do so many sysmeds seem to base their whole identities around the concept of pain and suffering?

One of the most common arguments we see amongst anti-endos is the idea that endos and their supporters promote this fantasy where DID/OSDD is all fun and happy. Anti-endos claim that we downplay the difficult parts of having a dissociative disorder (fragmented memory, PTSD, an altered or incomplete sense of self, etc).

But here's the thing..... endos aren't actually saying that.

Having DID/OSDD is hard, especially when you don't have access to the proper support. Nobody is denying that fact. But what's so bad about the people who have these disorders choosing to seek out the positives instead of being miserable all the time?

Anti-endos will even attack other traumagenic systems for not having the same mindset. To us, it almost feels like the people who make this argument are jealous that other plurals with DID/OSDD don't let their suffering dictate their sense of self. In fact, it even feels like these people don't even want to heal or seek help. They've become so engrossed in their misery that they can't possibly fathom the idea that others aren't also suffering 24/7. When you build your whole identity around your pain and misery, seeing anyone who doesn't think and act that way is going to make you angry and upset.

It's so incredibly easy to fall down a rabbit hole of thoughts when all you can think about is how miserable you are. That's why so many people struggle to get out of depression; it eventually becomes second nature for your brain to adopt a negative thinking pattern, and changing your thought process is unbelievably hard. This is especially true with people who have suffered abuse and/or trauma, because of the way these things impact them mentally and emotionally.

And maybe this is why so many anti-endos make the argument that our community downplays the negative aspects of having DID/OSDD. They see the plurals who have these disorders and seemingly aren't constantly suffering, and they get defensive because how DARE these systems who have the same disorder as them not be in misery all day, every day? How DARE these systems make the decision to accept the good and bad things that come with their disorders. How DARE people choose to not let their suffering define who they are.

- Blu

[karmaphone]

insane to me how 90% of therapy advice for singlets gets tossed out when you get to a system lmao

[tommysversion]

Breathe Through It (Joel Miller x Reader)

Summary: you have a panic attack. Joel helps.

CWs: Descriptions of mental health conditions (namely PTSD, but can be read as any anxiety based disorder with panic attacks) / graphic description of a panic attack / some adult language/ references to past trauma (nothing explicitly described but inferred).

Notes: This is entirely self indulgent, I have pretty severe PTSD and this is the coping mechanism of the day. Implied to be F!Reader but it can be read as gender neutral.

Word Count: 1.1k

Tag List: @joelsgirl & @mydailyhyperfixations

You don't feel it happen until it does. You've heard that for some people, their panic attacks build up, like the world's shittiest tidal wave, steadily looming over them.

Yours aren't like that. You'll be fine one minute, then something will trigger it. A sound. A place. A thought. Someone with a similar sounding name. A nightmare.

You get less than ten seconds warning, if you're lucky, before it hits you like a tonne of bricks and you freeze. It doesn't matter where you are, what you're doing, your chest constricts and you get tunnel vision. It's like you're a spectator in your own body, dissociated so hard you can't tell left from right.

The worst thing is when you lose your ability to speak. It doesn't happen every time, but when it does it's like someone's squeezing sand down your throat, completely taking away your ability to ask for help. As if you even could. You hate drawing attention to yourself at the best of times, let alone when you're so vulnerable.

Which is why it's annoyingly inconvenient that this is happening now. You haven't exactly been hiding your panic attacks from Joel, but you haven't directly talked about it with him. You know he has his own problems, far more trauma than he lets on. You know it isn't a competition, but you don't want to burden him with your anxiety.

Deep down, you know that it wouldn't be a burden. That he loves you, but it's hard to remember that when trauma brain is the one at the wheel.

You're not sure what it is this time. You're just walking through town with him, heading home after a drink, after a shift on the guard tower together, when someone, of all things, laughs. The laugh isn't quite right, but it sounds close enough that you freeze up, breath catching in your throat. Fuck, you're maybe ten feet from home. Why now?

Joel gets maybe two steps ahead of you before he realises you're no longer keeping pace, turns to say something, maybe crack a joke about you being a lightweight, but the comment dies on his lips the moment he sees your expression.

Most people think you just space out. Think it's a personality quirk or just a thing that you do. Joel knows better. He knows better because Ellie's described what he looks like when he has a panic attack, recognises when he's about to have one these days.

So it's immediately fucking clear as day to him what's happening.

He doesn't bother asking what's set it off; knows that there isn't always a clear answer, and that even asking, reminding you of the trigger, could just make it worse.

Joel hates being touched when he's having an episode of his own. Knows it triggers his fight response, that he'll start swinging. He doesn't think that will apply to you, but he doesn't know for certain, and that's all that keeps him from wrapping his arms tight around you.

Instead, he takes you by the hand, leads you the last few steps to the house, closes the door behind you, flips the light on.

"'S okay. Look, we're good. Door's closed. Nobody's coming after us."

You can barely hear him, heart pounding in your ears, breaths coming out ragged like you've just run a marathon.

"Hey. Hey. If you can, look at me, okay?"

He doesn't sound angry, or tired, and it's not a demand. This voice is the one he uses when Ellie's sick, or you're sick, or when he's reassuring one of the kids in town that he's not remotely mad that they stole an extra slice of pie when he was meant to be on food watch duty.

Joel is always soft spoken, but this is different. It makes you feel safe, not enough to pull you out of it, because that's not how it works, but safe enough to look at him, to focus as best you can on the dark depths of his eyes.

"There you are." He goes to let go of your hand but you cling on to him, slump against his chest, needing the warmth and solidness of him to ground you.

That's all the permission he needs, wrapping his arms tight around you.

"I've got you. You're safe, I promise."

You know that. Deep down, you know that the people who hurt you are far away. That they'll never touch you, control you, hurt you, ever again. You know that you're safe here, in this house, with Joel.

He rubs soothing circles on your back, kisses the top of your head, relieved when you start breathing properly again, coming down from the adrenaline.

"You don't need to hide these from me, darlin', I know how they feel."

"That's why I didn't want you to deal with it." You manage to get out; your throat is dry as hell, the guilt already forming.

"Deal with it? What, like it's a big issue? I'd rather be able to help. That's what I'm here for. We do this together, remember?"

"But it's..."

"Nothing. Don't you dare call yourself a burden or anything similar. You've been through so much. Ain't a competition. But you've gotta let me in, okay? I'm not going anywhere."

"You promise?" You hate how small your voice is, how distant you still feel. Even if the worst is over, you'll still feel horrible for a few more hours, trapped by your own thoughts.

"I promise. Breathe through it, baby. I'm not going anywhere. We can stay here all night if it helps you feel safe."

You exhale. You do feel safer, standing there with his arms locked around you.

"Will it always be like this?" You hate yourself for asking, but you know he's been dealing with these a lot longer than you have.

"Yes and no," Joel says finally. "You learn to sit with them. They don't suck any less, they're still fuckin' horrible, but you get your support, and you'll learn to sit with them."

You nod against his chest, finally feeling a little better. At least better enough that it doesn't feel like your limbs are full of cement.

"What can I do to help?"

You consider for a minute. "Can we have coffee? Maybe take a shower?"

You always feel a cold sweat come over you after the worst of it passes. Joel nods, gives you one last reassuring squeeze.

"Course we can. Whatever you need, darlin', I'm always gonna be here for you."

He lets go of you to move to the kitchen, but keeps hold of your hand, knows without asking that you still need the reassurance of touch.

"Hey, Joel?"

"Yeah, baby?"

"I love you."

"Love you too, baby. C'mon, let me take care of you."

It's not a miracle cure. No such thing exists, after all, but having someone who loves you so much, who you know will support you through it? It makes all the difference in the world.

[moonlit-positivity]

Lesser known effects of trauma that don't ever get acknowledged

Cw: mentions of csa, sa, despair, depression, & generally dark content that some may find hard to read. Please interact & read with care.

"bed rotting" (which I hear is gaining attention on TikTok these days) ie the process of becoming bedridden due to your body being stuck in freeze response (paralyzed w fear, too scared to move)

Needing to cut your hair bc it keeps getting matted down, because you can't shower or wash it or keep up with it anymore

Gaining weight (i gained over 200lbs in a year), losing all the clothes you once fit in, and feeling guilty when all you see everywhere all the time is fat shaming

Losing weight (and subsequently all your clothes start falling off 😭) eating disorders and struggling with body image

Existing off of God knows what at this point. Is that milk spoiled? Yeah but how many days is it spoiled? Mmm, nah, nevermind, I'll just eat air.

Losing track of time. Losing months to years of time because of extreme dissociation, fatigue, stress, and the inability to move

Brain & body "shut down" or go into sleep mode for long periods of time

Self hygiene becomes non existent. Showering? Brushing teeth? Changing clothes? Don't know her.

House cleaning becomes non existent. "If It's Not In The Vacinity, It's Not Getting Done."

Lying to everyone about what's going on because it's easier than telling the truth

Not being comfortable with having your pictures taken, go through a phase where you destroy any evidence you ever existed anywhere at all

Isolating & ghosting all ur friends periodically to make sure they're not gonna leave you (lol makes perfect sense, if you know you know)

Animal upkeep goes to shit. Litter box goes neglected for long periods of time.

Noise & light sensitivity goes haywire. Noise & light triggers get amplified especially once you start to feel any sense of "safety" and start decompressing. An alarm goes off, the stove beeps, the cat meows, anything that makes even the slightest noise in the foreground and you have a whole ass panic attack and find yourself in bed for the rest of the day

Agoraphobia. You never go outside ever again. Too much paranoia, too many eyes staring at you, too many reasons to panic and stay in bed

Life becomes so non existent that the only thing that matters is whatever you're currently doing to cope & survive. If you're addicted to something, well, it's a fucking miracle you even wake up anymore

Couch surfing and inevitable homelessness when people get tired of housing you. Having to confront the way society frames government assistance as "the lazy man's income" & hope disability goes through. Which it won't. Wait-lists out the ass, section 8 takes 5 years or more to kick in. Disability doesn't even go through bc they always deny the first time you apply. The process is littered with appeals and court dates and what the fuck, I can't even get out of bed. What the fuck. What the fuck.

Leaning into your despair because, despite what everyone on social media will shout at you about resilience and "not allowing yourself to fall into despair," they will never understand that concept that despair is there for a reason too. Youre looking at someone who was raped at 5 years old and youre telling them to "stay positive." Yeah okay.

The anger, the bitterness, the resentment at the world & everyone in it. The cold blooded urge for revenge & justice. Especially when there's nothing you can do about the fact that your abusers are still free to live and roam this world as they please.

Not being able to "talk about it." Not being able to "trust a safe space." That's bullshit. I was beat and abused my whole life, what the fuck you mean "safe space?" The absolute mind fuckery that you have to sit with and undo and learn the fact that they fucking lied to you. It is enough to kill you.

Everything you learn in therapy just pisses you off even more because why the fuck wasn't there someone there as a kid to teach you this shit???? Why the fuck do I have to learn this as an adult???? Where was this when I actually fucking needed it????

Nothing helps. Nothing soothes, because there is no soothing. There is only pain. It's like ripping your skin off.

Losing everything. Losing all your friends. Losing all your "cool status" points. Losing your reputation. Losing all the things that once brought you great joy and passion. There is nothing anymore. Pain and isolation and desolation and despair.

Learning that no one can relate. Except that's not entirely true at all. People can relate. It's just such a stigmatized topic that no one talks about it out loud, because no one else in society really gets it.

[fictionkinfessions]

Please stop generalizing fictives. Just because our origins are technically 'medical' (as in, a result of a dissociative disorder) doesn't mean we can't view our past lives as spiritual too. I'm tired of seeing "stop treating fictives like their source self!" applied as a general rule. For some of us that's integral to who we are and we can't separate from it. For some of us, we want more than anything to return home, because this world doesn't feel right.

x

[adipostsstuff]

We need to talk about the prisoners' memories

We know that none of the prisoners remember being taken to Milgram, so they must have had some memories removed, and it seems it wasn't limited to the kidnapping since Mu in her first voice drama claims that the last thing she remembers is committing her murder. I suspect their memories cut off at the moment they realised they committed murder based on the last scenes in their music videos. This would mean that:

Haruka, Yuno, Mu, Amane and Kotoko would have their memories cut off immediately after their murders since it would be pretty difficult not realise you committed a murder after literally beating someone to death.

For Mahiru and Kazui it would be once they realsie their partners committed suicide and related it back to their own actions.

For Futa it would be when he starts getting posts directed to him how his victim's death and was blamed for it. (Side note: imagine being Futa, getting called out on social media and not knowing when, realising you caused the death of a human being, and then waking up in a prison and being called a murderer with no time to process any of that. No wonder he's so jumpy.)

For Shidou it would be when he gets told his family was diagnosed with brain death and asked to offer up their organs for transplants, realised how hurtful it must have been for others to hear the words said from him, and retroactively consider all of his previous transplants to be murders. (I know this isn't confirmed to be his murder but its the only theory that fits this one and based on other stuff seems the most likely to me.)

This leaves Mikoto, who seems to be the odd one out as unlike the others he had time to clear up his crime scene. It seems like a contradiction to be able to do that without realising he committed a murder. I have a couple of possible explanations for this (but I have to speculate about his crime to do that. ugh).

The first, and what I believe to be most likely, is that he killed someone and immediately started to dissociate. Remember what I said earlier about it being difficult to not realise you committed a murder if you did it directly? There is actually an exception to that rule: if you happen to have a dissociative disorder, which just so happens to be the case with Mikoto. This could be when John was "born" (which checks out with his statements in Neoplasm) and was left with the task of clearing up the scene while Mikoto was unconscious (don't know the proper system terminology for that). If this is the case, then it's unlikely there were more than one victims or at least incidents since it seems a little pedantic for this to happen every time (unless John did kill someone after the first event; have to keep an open mind, especially since I'm not going to bother looking into it much further than this myself).

The other possibility is that it was an alter committing all the murders without Mikoto's knowledge, but since Double I've been less convinced. John is clearly not giving us all the information he knows.

Either way the end is the same. Some time later, Mikoto starts to remember what he did before getting knocked out kinda by John and forgetting again. This realization is what enables him to be sent to Milgram. In fact, if you look at the final scene in MeMe

Yep, that’s the last shot either of them have. Their last memory before entering here. As an aside it's interesting (and also kind of annoying) that the memory wipe is applied to both alters despite only Mikoto being considered the prisoner. They might have just tried to remove all memories after this point regardless of who was fronting. The one time it would have been useful for John to not be considered a prisoner, he is treated as one.

This is entirely conjecture but considering everyone else it would be weird for him to be the only one who doesn't fit. This does give some kind of idea as to how Milgram selects people to be part of the experiment and what memories are wiped, and I don't have a better idea than this one right now so if anything gets contradicted then I'm screwed. I'm fairly confident in this though. Going to make a follow up post to prove more stuff happened between what they last remember and when they were taken here, but I'd like to hear everyone else's thoughts on this.

[sophieinwonderland]

cases of endogenic plurality shouldn’t have to need psychology to be considered legitimate. Sociological explanations should be more widely understood and accepted.

I genuinely do not understand particular syscourse blogs’ obsessions with trying to build a psychological explanation for things that are very clearly sociological.

Sociological explanations?

So, society causes endogenic plurality?

Oh, like people said DID was sociogenic? We're doing that again!

I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt with the other posts and assuming they meant they just wanted endogenic plurality studied through the lens of sociology. Not that they were presenting sociology as the cause of and explanation for endogenic plurality.

Okay, let's take a step back and look at what these fields actually are. Because even the comparison to DID's socio-cognitive model would ignore that the socio-cognitive model is socio-COGNITIVE. Even that ridiculous theory didn't try to divorce DID from psychology altogether.

So let's first talk about what these fields are.

Psychology vs sociology

Psychology is the study of mental processes and behavior. It answers questions about what people do and understanding why — such as, the mental processes behind their behavior. Psychology is oriented towards understanding the individual and how the individual relates to the group. By contrast, sociology is a study of systems and society. It investigates macro-level issues like poverty, food deserts, and unemployment. How do these structures behave within society, and what perpetuates them? It’s a big picture look at humans within the context of their society: how the group relates to the individual. Sociology studies the anthill; psychology studies the ants.

This is a great way to look at the differences.

And it's why describing endogenic plurality as "clearly sociological" really doesn't make any sense.

Plurality is in the individual. It's something you only see when you're willing to look past the hill and see the ants.

Yes, there are some cultures where endogenic plurality is accepted, and that can lead to the creation of plurality in those cultures. But endogenic plurals have also formed outside of those cultural frameworks with no connection to those cultures.

That includes myself, who didn't discover tulpas until after I had already gained sentience.

Now, it is true that all types of plurality do have sociological influences. This is also true of dissociative disorders. If you have a dissociative disorder and you grow up in a culture where demon possession is more common, you may be more likely to view an alter as a demon.

But that doesn't mean all forms of plurality are CAUSED by those sociological influences.

But even IF they were, that still wouldn't be (primarily) sociology.

It would be social psychology

Essentially, social psychology is about understanding how each person's individual behavior is influenced by the social environment in which that behavior takes place.

In other words, if sociology is the study of the anthill and psychology is the study of the ants, then social psychology is the study of how the ants are affected by the anthill.

Relatedly, there's also psychosociology which explores the connection between psychology and sociology that could also apply here.

But regardless, you cannot divorce the psychology from plurality.

To view plurality as solely or even primarily sociological would be to erase the individuals who make up the group.

Non-metaphysical Plurality Happens in the Mind of the Individual

I'm not going into the metaphysical aspect because the truth is that I am a skeptic. Although I'm certain many spiritual plurals would dispute that their experiences are sociological too on spiritual grounds.

But for those with non-metaphysical views, I have a hard time believing these experiences would be viewed as more in the purview of sociology.

Do you think the hallucinations (including mindvoices of headmates) are more sociology than psychology?

The dissociation, including switching and letting other agents take control of your body?

The passive influence where your mood and feelings are impacted by the others in your head?

Partial possession or similar motor intrusions where someone else controls your limbs?

The complex inner worlds systems build?

Ooh! How about the sharing of dreams with headmates?

In what way is any of this "clearly sociological?"

Because frankly, I'm at a complete loss.

Obviously, Plurality shouldn't be confined to a single field of study

Anthropology can study different forms of plurality across cultures and history. Sociology can study how plurality may affect the cultures they're a part of and how society responds to plurality. Psychology can study what's actually going on in the minds of plurals. Neurology can look for physical signs of plurality in the brain itself. Heck, even biology could hopefully look at conditions that may make someone plural and how that could be woven into our genes. I'm a firm believer that one reason plurality is so common across so many cultures is because there are evolutionary advantages to being plural.

But looking to sociology for explanations for endogenic plurality, even as so many endogenic plurals discover their plurality outside of social pressures and influences and even in social contexts where plurality is heavily stigmatized, seems to fundamentally misunderstand both endogenic systems and the field of sociology itself.

[subsystems]

10.2.23

Disclaimer: This is my own musings about plurality. I talk about my personal experience with unification (final fusion) too. Don't read if that upsets you for some reason.

Something I haven't really talked about is my relationship with the idea of plurality. I saw someone talking about how they feel simultaneously plural and not plural, and I find that really relatable.

I used to despise being called plural. It brought me so much shame. Made me feel like this one single symptom of my disability was being cherrypicked and pinned onto me as a label. I felt like my vast and varied experience with DID was minimized for something much more palatable and "fun" to others. It was almost like the full DID was being pushed aside. Like being told "yes, you should continue to hide that and you should continue to be ashamed of it."

I also felt like plurality still applied to me, though. Yes, the blanket definition of plurality does fit me. I am a person who has multiple parts, a plurality of perspectives, I am "more than one." That fits...but that's not all?

I think another thing is that, when I got diagnosed, I didn't even feel plural even though I knew the term technically fit me. I hardly ever felt a presence of parts even though they were there. We hardly talked, hardly wanted to acknowledge each other, even though the evidence was there. For me, it was like being forcibly dragged in and out of existence. Someone else would replace me but I wouldn't know that, wouldn't remember. So, what do you mean that there are systems who never feel lonely or out of control because they're always co-conscious, voluntarily switching, and chatting inside? What do you mean that's even possible? Was I the only one living my own life in slivers and pieces? Was I the only one experiencing the unbearable loneliness that is my DID?

Yeah, I am "more than one" but...

It was complicated. There's probably old posts on my blog where I talk about how I'm not plural even though I have DID. And probably other posts where I'm calling myself plural as if my teeth are clenched. Like it's painful but necessary.

Sometimes I revisit those old feelings, but for the most part I feel at peace with the concept of plurality now. As a young trauma survivor, it was hard to separate the concept itself from the online culture surrounding it. But, ultimately, the way other people experience their plurality doesn't invalidate me. The concept itself doesn't minimize or shame me. It's just a word for an experience, in the same way that dissociation and flashbacks are words for experiences. The way these things are treated and talked about are ripe for criticism, not the experiences themselves. It's nice to have words for them.

And there's no universal way of "being more than one" because it ranges on a spectrum of experiences. Much in the same way dissociation can be mild or extreme, be it brought on by trauma, mental disorders, religious practices, drugs, or other things. Who fucking cares.

But when I think about it...when did I start actually feeling plural despite always fitting the concept? Out of anything, I think unification (final fusion) was actually what helped me finally feel my own plurality. Isn't that interesting?

Unification was when we finally felt each other. I feel the entire multitude because I am it. We're all together, all at once, at all moments. We're constantly in communication. There's no blocks, no separations, no barriers. I'm all of us and we're all of me: a big bundle of parts, connected together like a constellation.

That feels more like plurality than anything I ever felt before.

[hiiragi7]

I really wish people would stop attacking well-backed theories they do not actually understand all that well just because they think it makes their argument look better. Shitting on the ToSD won't prove anything with regards to endogenic plurality, you're just being kind of an ass about a theory meant to apply to people with disorders. If endogenic systems are seperate and different from CDD systems, why do you feel a need to constantly rip apart disorder-related resources and concepts because they do not include endogenic systems? It's especially odd to me because the ToSD isn't even just about CDDs, it also aims to explain PTSD, C-PTSD, BPD, and several other disorders, but for some reason when it comes to DID and OSDD it's a problem.

I also wish we could have discussions about harmful practitioners without immediately jumping to discrediting their works. We can say someone is absolutely shitty as a human being without jumping to "they are a bad person, therefore they cannot possibly have done any important work in their field and all of their work should be thrown out".

A lot of pro/endo arguments relating to discrediting the ToSD in order to uplift endogenic systems feel really odd to me, because the ToSD is a theory meant to make sense out of dissociation in relation to trauma-based disorders - It doesn't really have anything to do with systems who do not fit a disordered framework in the way that the ToSD describes. Of course the ToSD wouldn't include endogenic or non-CDD systems, because it isn't a theory about plurality, it's a theory about trauma-related dissociation. It isn't meant to describe how All Plurality works, it's meant to describe how CDDs and other trauma-based disorders work.

I love y'all but I am begging you guys to learn to be normal about people with disorders. CDDs and endogenic non-CDD plurality are not interchangeable, and just as not every endogenic resource will be at all applicable or useful to understanding CDD systems, not every resource for CDD systems will be applicable to or include endogenic systems.

[the80srewinders]

We were looking at r/fakedisordercringe and r/systemscringe (bad idea) and we found a lot of misinformation. We're going to correct the myths in this post, and this will be a team effort by a few other sysmates. They will be credited at the end of the post.

Trigger warnings for abuse, RAMCOA and denial apply.

This person is trying to invalidate RAMCOA. And they're using an inaccurate study to prove it.

We have, in fact, read this study. It seems largely stereotype driven instead of a true unbiased study because people with other, often traumagenic mental disorders (like cluster b personality disorders) often are open about the trauma they truly experienced if these disorders affect them to have attention seeking behavior. And this study failed to mention that. For the "having told persons other than close confidants" part, its often unsafe for people with DID, much less people who developed it from RAMCOA to be open about it in person to people they know. They feel safer venting or sharing their experience online because theres the optional anonymity you can choose and you're safe from anyone who abused you. Its not attention seeking- its seeking support.

I do agree with the telling of alleged abuse without accompanying shame, guilt or suffering" part to an extent. If you're talking about trauma you claim you remember and have no distress, that's a sign you're either faking or really detached from your memories. But most of the "alleged" abuse these people are talking about they don't remember because thats how childhood trauma and DID work. Many singlets with childhood trauma don't remember majority or any of it because the brain "forgets" different aspects of trauma. And DID is a posttraumatic dissociative disorder entirely based on amnesia of trauma to survive. So if the person is being open about abuse with no distress, it could also be because they don't remember it but know it happened because of clues. Can't feel distress of remembering something you don't remember.

While RAMCOA has strayed away from its original meaning, that's because of misuse (and we blame both the ISSTD and misinformed mental health "professionals" for that along with media presentations.) RAMCOA stands for ritual abuse, mind control and organized abuse. The hyped satanic panic and gory sacrifices are only a small part of the acronym. Mind control doesn't have to be done by a cult. Ever been brainwashed by anyone? Thats a form of mind control. Organized abuse is more common than the satanic, stereotyped ritual abuse. OEA is a simple and inclusive term, and can encompass all forms of RAMCOA but also isn't widely recognized or used yet. And as far as the "HC-DID" term, DID is already highly complex even in people who aren't OEA survivors- DID and OSDD-1 are considered complex dissociative disorders. The term is basically just a fancy way of saying "hey I'm polyfrag because of RAMCOA!" All you need to say is that you're polyfrag because of RAMCOA, you don't need a fancy label for everything.

And yes, introjects are common in neurodivergent systems. Lets go ahead and do autism as an example: being autistic causes distress from hypersensitivity, its a common and documented autistic trait to hyperfixate, people with autism deal with rejection and social anxiety because of how autism works, and people with autism are more likely to be abused. Being autistic is traumatizing itself and this is why neurodivergent systems have plenty of introjects. Especially fictives; people with autism often seek comfort in fiction. And if alters in DID only develop during or after trauma, then this whole theory is solid.

This person is truly uneducated in how abuse survivors brains work especially RAMCOA. These survivors don't label the organization, cult or not, out of fear; when they were programmed, the idea anyone they told - especially if they shared the organizations name- would be in danger or die, or the survivors themselves would be in danger or die was programmed in them. If they're talking about it for awareness, just sharing their lived experiences is all that's needed. Sharing the name of the organization paints a target on the backs of the survivors and their close family and friends. And not every cult is going to present itself in an obvious way especially if they involve RAMCOA. They're going to make it seem like some new religious or pagan movement instead of a traumatizing cult. And yes, they do remain hidden.

This is ableist. If this person is referring to DID/OSDD, that's permanent and even if all alters fuse the ability to split them off again is still there. DID/OSDD are not disorders that can be fixed. Its a permanent rewiring of the brain due to frequent and overwhelming trauma. This involves a missed neurodevelopmental stage (the ego states fusing into one cohesive sense of self before the age of 6-10) and a posttraumatic survival response. Basically, DID/OSDD can't be "fixed" because our brains missed that developmental stage and this is how our brains are permanently. The "you get therapy to fix what went wrong so you can be one whole person as you were meant to be" is ableist and outdated. Its based on the old view of DID/OSDD treatment back when it was called multiple personality disorder: work on the trauma then force the system to fuse into one identity against their will so they'll be "cured."

Don't believe anything you see on r/fakedisordercringe or r/systemscringe. These are the most ableist, hateful subreddits on there and these subreddits set our recovery back when we were in the vulnerable, most important stage of treatment- the diagnostic process and trauma processing. We wouldn't have near the denial or alters that developed from the distress of the host thinking they're faking and much more.

Sysmates who contributed to this post- Finley (host) Everly (gatekeeper) and Marcia (trauma holder)

[acorpsecalledcorva]

How psychiatrists actually diagnose DID because the DSM is a manual not a diagnostic tool

Excerpts written by Paul Dell from Dissociation and the Dissociative Disorders: DSM-V and Beyond

I am begging y'all to understand that "E. The symptoms cause clinically significant distress or impairment" applies to ALL of the symptoms listed. Not distress over being a system itself.

The DSM and ICD are not suitable diagnostic tools because they're a list of all the currently accepted disorders, for brevity's sake everything is condensed. Diagnostic tools that focus on a smaller subset of disorders are able to get into much more precise symptomology and phenomenology.

A successful diagnostic tool:

a) Can satisfy the criteria set out in the DSM and ICD

2) Is able to detect as many people with the disorder as possible (doesn't under diagnose)

iii) Is able to exclude as many people without the disorder as possible (doesn't misdiagnose)

And most importantly for DID) Is able to capture and identify the full range of patient experience (doesn't diagnose you with depression and calls it a day)

For instance, I know for a fact that my local psychiatric team use a tool that includes a possible diagnosis of BPD but not DID, so if I went through that assessment process I would get a diagnosis of BPD, whereas the MID can diagnose both (plus the other Dissociative disorders and PTSD).

DID is a really tricky thing to diagnose because it's designed to hide itself. The DSM criteria really only focus on the main most obvious and blatant symptoms and are therefore only useful in a minority of cases, the DSM-IV criteria used to require a switch being witnessed by a therapist for fuck sake lmao. Now I might switch in therapy a lot but my alters do their damned best to hide it when it happens. The disorder was hidden from me for a whole 25+ years, did I not have DID when I didn't know? I was just depressed and anxious right? How could I be distressed by alters I didn't know I had? I was absolutely distressed by my symptoms and damn was I relieved to find out I had alters to help with them but I still have DID, I always had DID.

And look, this isn't to tell anyone they're wrong about themselves or their own experiences, but the diagnostic criteria are not for US to interpret. They're for professionals to interpret and discuss and debate and refine to make sure they're actually doing their job properly.

So much of the bullshit in syscourse is just arrogant pedantry over ambiguity in definitions and for a lot of it, other much more qualified people have done it for us

[hauntedselves]

hey ! do you have anything on emotional permanence in bpd ? esp in relation to other people

emotional permanence (things like not being able to remember feeling loved even though you were happily cuddling your partner an hour ago, or being angry and feeling like no other emotion exists apart from anger) is very common in BPD (and other PDs). it's why we split - it's the whole mechanism behind splitting, actually. emotions seem to only exist in the time that we're feeling them. relationships are only secure (the borderline only feels secure) when we're actively being reassured of its security. if you and your friend are fighting, you can't recall ever feeling loved and wanted by your friend and they must only hate you. cue splitting!

ways to deal with emotional permanence:

keep physical reminders of your friends' & family's love for you (photos of a trip you took together, a birthday present, etc)

keep nice texts and voice messages sent to you

come up with a list of reasons why they love you (all the nice things they do for you, etc)

practice dialectical thinking (x and y can both be true at the same time; e.g. you can be angry at yourself and love yourself at the same time)

practice other DBT skills like wise mind (keeping a balance between your emotional mind and your rational mind)

keep a diary or mood tracker - this way you can see when you've felt other emotions and remind yourself that other emotions do exist and you do experience them (good or bad)

schedule times frequently (how frequent is up to you) to keep in contact with loved ones so you have periodic reminders of their love

(emotional permanence doesn't just apply to relationships, and not just romantic relationships (therapeutic relationships are a big one), and it's not just BPD that experiences it - it's also a part of dissociative disorders, (C)PTSD, ADHD, and probably any other disorder that comes with emotional dysregulation and interpersonal difficulties)

[sysmedsaresexist]

do you know the difference between P-DID and non-possessive form DID? is it just amnesia + the elaboration of alters?

Let's start with DID

Possession/non possession type DID doesn't really have anything to do with amnesia and elaboration of alters. It's more about how it's experienced.

(to be honest, I don't find the terms very useful these days, I think they were more used before the internet, when people weren't as aware of what DID was and what was happening, and they're not too often used clinically anymore)

Possession type is the feeling of being taken over. Like someone else is controlling your body. It's usually applied to religious experiences because it's typically about, well, possession, and it was initially used to refer to people who said it felt as though an outside entity was taking over, like ghosts or spirits. It's used when those experiences are occurring outside of normal cultural practices, and it's usually quite distressing.

It's evolved within the communities (that seem intent on continuing to use the terms) to include what I like to call "hard switches", which is where you are simply no longer in control. You have fully switched and another alter is in full control, someone snapped their fingers and it's done. There's no specific measure of how aware you need to be, and blackout amnesia or full awareness still counts. It feels a bit like you've just been suplexed into/out of front. I say it's evolved because as more and more people look to the internet for answers, awareness of the experience grows and most tend to realize they're not actually possessed pretty early on.

All in all, outside of the feeling of an outside entity or force, it's mostly used for very overt and obvious presentations. True possession form is usually diagnosed now as possessive trance disorder in the ICD, when it's only outside or external entities. Once there are internal entities, it's back to DID.

Non-possession type is experienced more as intrusions-- this means emotional bleeding between alters, hearing them talk about how bad your choices are, some forms of cocon. It's alters intruding on you in some way. Within the community (by those who want to continue to use the terms), it's evolved to include what I call "soft switches," which is the gradual switch, where it's happened before you're aware. It's more... Comfortable than hard switches, with a "natural" feel to it.

You'll notice that these are both terms to describe switches. It's individual experiences among different types of systems.

Partial DID from the ICD is considered to include most forms of OSDD (1) (other OSDD (1) experiences fall under the ICD's DID section), but it mostly includes non switching systems. The ICD is extremely broad with DID, so most "typical" OSDD presentations fall into DID in the ICD.

Just to round things out, let's take a super quick look at the four different diagnoses for DID. It'll help showcase the different ways the ICD and the DSM break down dissociation types. You'll notice there's a bit of overlap, and that's due to the simple fact of the two manuals drawing distinctions in different ways.

ICD 11 DID

Two or more distinct personality states that can, and do, take control (switch)

Alternation between distinct personality states is not always associated with amnesia, though it's often present at some point during the course of the disorder (ie, for childhood events), but not always

Intrusion, or non possessive form, is common, in addition to switching

Encompasses DSM's DID and some presentations of OSDD 1b

ICD 11 Partial DID

Two or more distinct personality states, but switching is rare. There may be occasional, limited and transient episodes in which a distinct personality state assumes executive control to engage in circumscribed behaviours (e.g., in response to extreme emotional states or during episodes of self-harm or the reenactment of traumatic memories).

One personality state remains dominant

Intrusions are very common, making up the majority of the presentation of P-DID

Amnesia is considered rare in P-DID

Encompasses similar presentations to OSDD 1a and some types of OSDD 1b

DSM DID

Two or more distinct personality states that can, and do, take control (switch)

Alternation between distinct personality states is not always associated with amnesia, though it's usually and typically present at some point during the course of the disorder (ie, for childhood events), but not always (the weight of the amnesia criteria will depend on where you're being diagnosed-- Europe and the US evaluate the amnesia differently). For the most part, amnesia of some kind is required, though memories can be found and a diagnosis of DID will remain.

Intrusion, or non possessive form, is common, in addition to switching

There isn't a dominant personality

DSM OSDD 1a

Indistinct alters

Mainly presents as intrusions

Switching is not common. There may be occasional, limited and transient episodes in which an indistinct personality state assumes executive control to engage in circumscribed behaviours (e.g., in response to extreme emotional states or during episodes of self-harm or the reenactment of traumatic memories).

Amnesia is extremely common for periods of both intrusion and during the infrequent switching (functionally, it's required)

Dominant personality

DSM OSDD 1b

Two or more distinct personality states that can, and do, take control (switch)

Dissociation from emotion is the only type of amnesia experienced ("emotional amnesia", which is a dumb term and I hate it)

There is no dominant personality, though it's fairly common for switching to happen infrequently

Intrusion is also common

[cynicisystem]

I'M LAUGHING

I WENT ON PLURALPEDIA TO YOINK A SYSTEM SYMBOL N SAW A PAGE ON STRUCTURAL DISSOCIATION N THEY'RE TRYING TO DISCREDIT A LITERAL SCIENTIFIC THEORY BECAUSE IT'S NOT PRO ENDO N USES PARTS LANGUAGE???????

so y'all can see what I'm seeing here

I'm just gonna edit this to add on

it's wild how (most) endos will say that they're not dissociative but then insert themselves into conversations and medical research about an experience that they're saying they're so different from, they will get so mad at science because their pseudoscientific community doesn't fit into actual science

also calling using parts language dehumanizing in this context is seriously something, part is the best word to use in this context because it's also talking about other disorders that cause heavier dissociation, using language like alters won't apply to PTSD, cPTSD or BPD even if it applies to OSDDID but parts applies to all of those, it's literally just using accurate language

[sleepy-shutin]

do you have any tips on communicating with alters? i get the vibe im really not alone in the brain area (there are. copious ammounts of other reasons but.) i'm not sure if i just got some srs dpdr or am like actually a system

this sounds like less of a "communicating with alters" problem and more of a "DID vs. other disorders" problem, or a "how to tell what is and isn't an alter" problem. if you're not sure whether or not you have alters, communicating with them or attempting to do so isn't going to help you figure out if you have alters or not, you're just going to get more confused. trust me, i've been down this exact same path before and it made things worse and more confusing. don't jump into trying to communicate with alters first before even knowing whether or not you have them.

also, obligatory warning that more people should be giving out: if you're still living in an abusive/traumatic environment, i personally really do not recommend self diagnosing with DID. from my personal experience and the personal experience of friends, this makes things worse, especially if you're under 18 or otherwise cannot legally leave. worry about surviving and getting out, THEN worry about the magnitude of trauma that you experienced and try to start getting it processed. trying to process trauma and deal with trauma and dissociation symptoms while still being traumatized actively is an awful experience.

if the second paragraph doesn't apply to you, ignore it. it's not for you.

this post from felis puts a lot of it into some pretty easy to understand language, the difference between cPTSD parts and fully autonomous dissociated parts, as seen in DID or OSDD-1.

another thing to note--i can't remember if this is mentioned in the linked post or not--but parts aren't always necessarily going to feel like entirely different people controlling your body. the vast majority of people who have autonomous dissociated parts have parts that are not the most distinct and may be separated out by feeling (i.e. "i feel like a serious woman with long hair") rather than suddenly knowing you have a specific name, age, gender, etc.

what you should do when trying to figure out if you actually have parts, is pattern tracking. journal a lot. if you can, try to think about how you feel throughout the day, (i.e. "do i feel like the serious woman with long hair or do i feel like the sad little boy or do i feel like the happy man with a baseball cap?"), to better track these patterns and see if they are brought up at specific times of day.

for example, i become tal when i'm at work. she is a teenage girl with dark hair, and she's very cheerful, and is pretty happy being masculine, even though she doesn't necessarily present that way when we draw her.

while i'm at home, i become zero, who is more serious and deadpanned and irritable, who is very obviously a male figure.

i can always tell the difference between these two specifically because of how starkly different we feel to each other. when i start feeling like a bubbly teenage girl, that's a pretty easy way for me to tell when i've switched. i can generally tell when i'm going to switch to tal because she comes forward in IRL social situations, and at work. i've used pattern tracking over the course of months to figure these patterns out.

that's only two parts out of my documented 30-something, and it took months to fully figure that out. you're probably going to have a similar amount of time figuring out your own shit. don't rush it. the best time to start is now, so be patient.

so basically, track how you feel identity-wise in differing situations, and track how connected or disconnected you feel to these differing identity feelings over time.

when you get home from work/school, does the person at work/school feel like you? do you feel confused by your actions at work/school? anxious about these actions? disgusted? do you feel like these actions you did at work/school are something that you would do now that you're not at work/school? these are some questions you can ask yourself.

remember, this only works if you're honest with yourself, and it is not a quick process.

i hope you get things figured out anon.