#Jason and Bruce are both in a toxic relationship with Gotham but to Bruce she’s his evil wife and to Jason she’s his wretched mother | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

distort-opia · 2 years

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You reminded me of the Joker war toxic long term relationship framing

Bruce waking up in Ivy's Eden with the narration bubble containing word " love"

Harley saying she was offered rehabilitation there from when Joker poisoned her - Taking Bruce there to heal from Joker's poison as well. Symbolically cleaning his system of Joker as she did before him

Punchline, another love interest, entering this particular space as well where her and Harley fight over Joker and discuss his brand of " love"( which makes me wonder if Harley is heart, Punchline is brain, what would be Bruce? Both, none, something else)

Constant mention of family surrounding Joker - Barbara saying he will be left alone, him saying corpses are his and Bruce's creation, him saying if he wanted children he would take Batman on a date, having his own version of Dick, Jason's connection to both Bruce and Joker as his creators and theme of leaving their kids behind...

Their fight where Joker wants to carve BRUCE and looks hurt and done( I might be imaging this and I have no copy of the comic with me right now, but I swear I remember going " Wait is Joker having tears in his eyes in this panel? I could be very wrong and thinking of something else)

Harley again being sort of a guide and presenting Bruce with the choice she had to make... Bruce having a wake up moment where he finally leaves Joker behind and " follows Harley's path"... leaving the toxic relationship like she did...

And I will include both Bruce and Harley being in the hospital room together in the end, another parallel

Bruce's Alfred vision and what it contains

Joker mixing and matching their symbols and even suit together

When Bruce walked away I felt genuine happiness and relief because of the way this story was presented. It felt freeing. And Harley my love ❤❤❤

God. They really did not hold back on framing Bruce and Joker as in a toxic relationship, huh. I didn't even catch all of these.

And damn, there are tears in Joker's eyes in Batman (2016) #100. You could argue it's just the art style, but it'd certainly add to the scene if this was the case:

If this isn't a divorce arc, I don't know what is. Joker tried to cut off Bruce's face, Bruce refused to play by the rules of the game and walked out... Joker ended up leaving Gotham and now we have a whole comic called Joker: The Man Who Stopped Laughing incoming... Truly curious what's in store for these two.

Though you really got me wondering with the question of where Bruce fits in, between Harley and Punchline -- or if he even fits in at all. Tynion definitely framed Bruce as another person caught in Joker's harmful web of influence, but while he offers a direct answer regarding what Harley and Punchline got out of it, he doesn't quite do so for Bruce. If what Harley wanted from Joker was "heart", and what Punchline wants now is "brain"... what kept Bruce in the relationship? What did Bruce want?

In the end, I do think the answer falls between "something else" and "both". But I ended up getting very long with the rambling and the comic panels, so I'm putting the rest under a cut. [sigh]

Thing is, both Harley and Punchline aren't perceiving Joker as who he really is. Harley got manipulated by Joker because she wanted him to have a human side, and Punchline is getting manipulated by Joker because she wants him to have a plan, an agenda -- a point to make. It could be argued that Bruce doesn't really fit this pattern, because Bruce isn't projecting anything onto Joker, or making him into something he's not for his own reasons. Bruce may not have any illusions about who Joker really is, since within Joker War itself, when Bruce hallucinates Alfred, his own mind tells him the following:

Bruce knows exactly what Joker is doing, and that in Joker's head, only him and Bruce are even real. So, if Bruce sees Joker as he really is... maybe what Joker's been providing is precisely himself.

In Joker's own words (yes it's Harley under there, but a recording is playing) from Death of the Family, which has a similar plot and motivation for Joker's actions:

Joker's role, both in his own eyes and from a narrative point of view, is to provide conflict that makes Batman stronger. And whether he admits it or not, Bruce does depend on it. He needs Joker to be the villain; he's the darkness Bruce defines himself as "hero" against. Even in that conversation with Alfred, Bruce's whole life goal of fighting against death is equated with a fight against Joker:

Bruce puts Joker and death on the same level. And you could say he's right, in seeing Joker as an irredeemable psychopathic monster set out to ruin everything Bruce loves, a destructive force of nature that's barely human. Because he is. Arguably, Bruce sees Joker as who he really is. However... Joker doing this -- being Joker, being Batman's nemesis and Gotham's nightmare -- is a result of both "heart" and "brain". For Harley, for Punchline, for anyone else... it's only a means to an end, a tool for manipulation. Except for Bruce. That's when it's genuine.

Joker indeed doesn't see anyone other than him and Batman as real, but that puts them on equal level. That means Joker functions like a person (arguably what Harley and Punchline want) only in relation to Bruce. His most human moments have taken place in relation to Bruce, always; there's a whole part in Death of the Family dedicated solely to how Joker's eyes only work as human eyes for Bruce, and only reflect love. And Joker truly does not have an agenda, but he has an agenda when it comes to Batman. He does have a point that he wants to prove, something he believes in, but it's only in opposition to Batman's beliefs. In his own bitter and resentful words from Endgame, he's "fighting for meaninglessness, but giving meaning by virtue of the fight." God, I'm once again having Feelings about the unbelievably fucked-up dynamic they have. Bruce's side of the whole thing is just so...

The monster loves you. The monster is keeping himself alive by being a monster for you; being a monster is giving his life purpose, because a monster is what you need. That love is the only thing left that's human about him, and he's using it to turn himself into your worst nightmare. But you do need the nightmare, so you can't let the monster die. You keep your own nightmare alive, at any cost.

[clears throat] Anyway, you probably get what I meant with Bruce getting both "heart" and "brain" from Joker, but also "something else". Bruce does correctly identify Joker as "death", as evil, as a curse. But he's also projecting; doing what Harley and Punchline are doing, except in a different direction. It's not "heart" or "brain" for him, it's "monster" -- and he's the only person on Earth who can even do this and be wrong about it, because Joker only has feelings for him.

And to address the last part of your ask, I get feeling happy on Bruce's side for managing to walk away, but... well, I'm compelled to say, I don't think it can be expected to last. Bruce had a break-up attempt at the end of Death of the Family when he bluffed about knowing Joker's name, and then Joker had a very real break-up attempt in Endgame which ended up with both of them dead. But then they came back and returned to the usual song and dance, more or less. And especially within current events... I don't see it as a very clean separation. It's not a strong enough attempt on Bruce's side, and that's mostly because of the way his choice to walk away was framed in the first place.

None of it would've happened without Harley, as you said; and now that I went back to Death of the Family and her involvement, it's interesting how she was a passive player being used by Joker there, but in Joker War she's an active player. However, since Harley is the catalyst, she's also the one to set the terms:

Harley does say earlier that the killing shot should come from Bruce, but she doesn't say anything about letting Joker die when she leaves. The choice she presents Bruce with is the following: will you always be what he wants you to be? Will you always let him dictate the rules of the game, or will you change them for once? (And yeah, obviously... she speaks from experience.)

And then Joker makes it worse, because he plays into Harley's hand, not realizing that he's going too far. He demands to be saved -- something he's never done before. I talked about it somewhere else, but most of the time, Joker is trying to get Batman to kill him, not to save him. Having Joker explicitly do the opposite is another sign of how far things have devolved between them. And then, after it's 100% made clear Joker can survive and that Bruce knows he's not leaving him to die, Bruce goes after Harley -- in her own words and the narrative's words, he defies Joker's game. He refuses to play his part, and it's a message to Joker:

"But now he knows. [...] I think... I think that matters." Even though he did find the bomb intact and Joker clearly escaped, Bruce walked away and made his point. Now, Joker knows that the city, and Batman with it, have changed. (God, the way Gotham is used as a metaphor for both Batman and Joker, and as a metaphor for their relationship, and as a metaphorical prize to be won in the battleground of it and the war between them...)

And don't get me wrong, I do think Bruce made a conscious and real decision to emotionally disengage, to change the game and the way he relates to Joker. It's just that putting it in practice is a lot more complicated.

Bruce admits that Joker was right, and then proceeds to implement the lessons learned during Joker War. And well, you can definitely objectively agree with someone's point without it saying anything about your relationship with them, but it's the framing from Batman (2016) #100 -- "Do you want to change the game?" -- that makes me see it as more than that. How is Bruce changing the game, if he's doing precisely what Joker ultimately wanted him to do? Isn't he basically becoming a Batman that Joker would deem worth fighting for again? Hell, he even ends up distancing himself from the Family later in Failsafe, though he currently seems to be getting his head on straight about that.

I guess I see it as quite complicated... Joker War is in many ways about Joker going too far in trying to force Bruce to be the Batman he needs, a lot like Death of the Family. It's a bit of a spiritual successor. In both stories, Bruce snaps and defies him. Seeing as Tynion helped with the writing of Death of the Family and Endgame, which are very heavy in their Batjokes connotations, I don't think it's at all a coincidence that Joker War reads like an escalation on Joker's part, all while seeking to do the same thing as before: make Batman see the truth, make Batman stronger. From Death of the Family onwards, Joker's been feeling that Batman is lacking. He's been trying to hurt Bruce more and more, until he relents and becomes the Batman Joker envisions. It's not just Bruce who's been walking out, which is why it feels to me like a complicated divorce arc. Joker's unsatisfied, so he lashes out; Bruce fights back with the few things he knows that would hurt Joker, but in the process he does become a stronger Batman; it never actually ends. I mean, it would have ended already, if DC had allowed Bruce and Joker to just be dead in Endgame. But they won't do that any time soon, purely because these characters interacting makes for fantastic conflict, and it sells.

But who knows! I am very curious about The Man Who Stopped Laughing. Rosenberg does seem to have a good understanding of Joker's character, if Joker Presents: A Puzzlebox is any indication. Maybe they'll take this divorce arc into an interesting new direction that allows for more significant character development.

This got really long, Anon, I'm sorry about that. Also, my interpretation isn't meant to make it any less relieving for you that Bruce walked out, it's still an important decision on his part. And I do like that it happened; after all, if Bruce didn't truly fight back against Joker, they wouldn't be equals. So thank you for the ask, you really identified some very interesting aspects in the writing of Joker War.

#asks #batman #batman meta #bruce wayne #joker #batjokes #batjokes meta #batman: joker war #my meta

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colorfulyetsinful · 1 year

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I wrote this on my phone again😀

You could tell with the amount of emojis I used, anyways

Tim is literally my favorite I never shut up about him and bc of that this list is so goddamn long. I honestly tried to be consistent but I was going off the top of my head

Enjoy and become apart of the Tim Drake cult😈

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tim Drake hc!!! WOAH!

Nepotism baby

He’s a rich child with inheritance and basically running two separate businesses

Nepotism at its finest✨

Since he was usually on his own (due to his parent working) he used Batman and Robin as a form of escapism

Kinda lonely

He’ll talk to himself as if he was talking to Batman and Robin

Definitely ran a Batman and/or Gotham vigilante stan account on Twitter

Toxic fan **tm**

no literally, he would argue with anyone who disagreed on him that Batman was the best hero,

especially if they were Metropolis

bc why tf do they always have to involve themselves in everything Gotham🤨

Two words: Parasocial relationship

had an unhealthy obsession with Robin!Jason,

Robin!Jason saved him ONCE (1x) and it was down hill from there

Def locked himself in his room, sobbing, screaming, pulling his hair, and throwing up when Jason died.

News: Jason Todd, son of Billionaire Bruce Wayne, pronounced death! Read more to find out.

Tim: NOO!

Vaild tho,

who wasn’t crying when Jason died?

(The joker)

Wha-

He had a celebrity crush on Dick (not ship related),

no one knows about it (it’s all over his stan account that he made sure will never see the light of day),

he’s taking that secret to the grave

I say this a lot about Tim, but

Whore **tm**

have you seen his body count?!

definitely followed in Dick’s footsteps

Strange is what ppl say about him,

vaild tho,

if I had to sit next to Tim in class, I would find him strange too

Adhd coded,

why do ya think he keeps himself busy?! He literally can’t sit still

Also no insomnia,

he just suffers from chronic nightmares that keeps him from getting proper rest,

So de just decided not to sleep

“Nightmares can’t effect me if I don’t sleep”

Yeah, scarecrow has nothing on him,

poor guy’s had worse

Even after getting adopted, he never really felt part of the family,

Always feeling like he has to prove something to Bruce to stay as robin,

Which is why, when Dick had Damian be Robin, Tim felt like he had no place in the family anymore

That’s why he went a little insane

It’s cool, they’re fine now…

Speaking of insane,

Tim is like the one robin in the family I would not want to fight

Like compare to the others,

(Dick has experience form doing it for so long + mf is giggling and joking while kicking ass,

Jason is just kid with daddy issues and a gun, it’s America, been there seen it,

And Damian has both daddy and mommy issues, angain nothing really special)

Tim is just purely unhinged,

he’s got everything to prove without the care in the world what happens to him,

don’t forget his mad scientist era

What I’m trying to say is that Tim is scary and you have a better chance fighting Damian or Jason

(at least they kinda make it quick)

Ok back to silly goofy hc :D

Tim used to write Batman fanfics,

it’s true I was his screensaver

He used them all wattpad, fanfic.net, ao3, tumblr, etc

It was mostly “original character” fics, that were actually self inserts

as escapism

(He’s def taking that to the grave)

Stephanie found out about it and he was planing her “disappearance” within a rive minute timeframe

Speaking of Steph,

They cringe every time someone brings up the fact that they used to date

*hold cute picture of Steph/Tim* Awe you guys were so cute, ashamed you two broke up

Them: *gag*

He loves Steph tho, she’s his ride or die

As I mentioned in my Accent hc,

Tim knows a lot of languages bc rich kid

Him and Damian talk to each other in mandarin, mostly bc it’s a language they both know fluently

He tried to learn Arabic so Damian could feel comfortable talking to him,

(This is after the many times he’s tried to kill him, but hey what are brother’s for..?)

He couldn’t quite get the pronunciation right, and just said “fuck it we speaking mandarin”

Literally, they don’t even speak in English to each other anymore,

Like if it’s just them talk, other ppl they’ll translate or they’re talking shit

Tim and Damian actually get along,

Like it was rough at first, but living together really forces the two to get along

(Imma add more about them in a different hc)

Also Dick Grayson!!

Did I mention he had a parasocial relationship?

Yeah, Dick was not excluded from that

He knew Dick was mostly giving him the time of day bc he felt guilt about not being there enough for Jason,

But he doesn’t care

He knew what he was doing going to Dick about being Robin,

“You gotta be Robin again. Batman needs Robin”

“Idk who you are kid, but I am not wear that thing again. Plus blue is more my color. You wearing if you think it’ll help Bruce”

*Tim already at the display case* “I mean…if you insist”

Stalker

Nothing else to add to that

He’s the best to take to galas (or just to deal with high society in general) having grew up with lessons on how to be a “proper young man”

Study abroad at one point,

It was in Switzerland

Has a staring problem

Literally. Imagine just minding your business in a public area and turning to see (👁️👁️) staring death at you without blinking

Don’t worry, it’s just his adhd taking over the most part of his brain

He actually hates black coffee, but it’s the only think strong enough to have him away (so he won’t get nightmares)

He watches anime,

Specifically, shonen anime and BL (boylove)

He watches anime with Damian while arguing about the main pairing not working bc the “male love interest is obviously gay”

He wrote fanfics, you think he won’t be a shipper?

Can sing,

Like really good

Jason caught him singing in his room at like 2:30 in the morning and sent a video to the group chat

*jason sent a video*

Jason: ya see this shit😀

Everyone goes crazy bc Tim sounds so nice

The thing is, Tim never hid the fact that he can sing, just never said it out load

But if you were really pay attention to him, you could have caught him lightly singing to himself any indie or viral tiktok song while he does basic tasks

Everyone now has a mission of trying to catch him in the act,

Only Alfred and Cass knew he could sing

Bart knows about his identity before he told the team,

Bc Yk future and all

So him and Tim just naturally became closer over time as Tim could rant to Bart without worrying about his identity being blown

(More about this in another hc)

Cannon that he cross dresses

I think that’s it for now…

#batfam #batman #dick grayson #tim drake #jason todd #bruce wayne #red robin #robin #dc characters #batfamily headcanons #batfam headcanons #dc headcanon #idk what other tags to add #I have more hcs for tim but I can’t think right now it’s 12am #I love Tim Drake #hes my favorite robin next to robin!Jason

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roseworth · 1 year

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If you got to write an ongoing for Rose, what major arcs would you do? Would you have her ice Slade? Would she team up with Jason's Outsiders, end up with Tatsu or Babs, or be her own free agent occasionally punching other heroes?

oh my god yes. im just kinda gonna start dumping thoughts here with no organization im so sorry but here we go

so first of all i know i will never get this but my ideal rose ongoing would be her working mostly alone but sometimes teaming up with people bc she doesnt like to stay with anyone for long but she DOES work with other people when she needs them

shes been in gotham for a while so id prob keep her there and have her team up with other ppl in gotham every once in a while bc. i want her to. i just think gotham is a good place for her because it is a city of the most stubborn people in the world so she would fit right in

id prob have her do kind of the same thing she was up to in Fresh Hell and taking down various crime rings bc i dont really see her caring much about the costumed villains, not to mention there are a hundred other vigilantes in gotham for the Big Bads

also having her in gotham kind of opens up so many roads SO. gotham vigilante teamups <3 first things first i feel the need to say her and bruce would not have any need to interact and i dont think either of them would really want to fhdkjfhdsf like rose is trained and mostly doesnt kill people so i dont think batman would really care what shes doing until she does something bad, and rose wouldnt really like batman (for various reasons that i wont go into rn) so they would kinda just be doing their own thing

ANYWAYS in general i think that the idea of rose teaming up with bats is sooooo funny bc most of the bats are very meticulous planners and make whole schemes for everything they do. while 90% of the time roses plan is "im gonna go in and start punching people and see what happens" so i think she would give whoever shes working with an aneurysm and thats kind of hilarious to me

i want her to team up with steph and cass for homoerotic reasons because they all have so many narrative parallels, ESPECIALLY with cass so i need them to team up again <3 idk what they would be up to besides getting on each others nerves but i need it so bad

also rose & jason Now.. they r besties to me. i feel like they get into a lot of the same shit so they would also team up fairly often :) not to mention both of them have abandonment issues so they would have the most toxic friendship that constantly shifts between codependency and disappearing whenever something bad happens <3 besties<3333333

honorable mention teamups are babs who im pretty sure ive already talked about a babs&rose teamup before so i wont go into it, helena who i honestly have only read in bop so idk a lot about her but from what i do know i think she and rose would get along, harley who i would only want her to team up with because it would be a fucking mess, dick who i want her to team up with because it would also be a fucking mess but in a different way (renegade arc part 2 but this time theyre both heroes so rose can annoy him even more), duke who i want to include just because i love him even though i cant imagine any reason for him and rose to interact, young justice who arent all gotham heroes but i want them to be around to temporarily absorb rose just for fun, and the entire arrowfam who have no reason to be in gotham but i just want rose to fuck around with them as a treat to ME

as for slade. i think that their relationship is best written when it is really complicated for her :) so i need her to fall back into the cycle of going to him and looking for his approval and being constantly disappointed and angry when he refuses to give it to her :)

anyways ARCS. i dont have a lot of specific ideas for arcs besides another arc of rose giving up the name ravager (bc it didnt fucking stick last time), an arc making her a lesbian (stop booing me im right) and maybe an arc of rose killing slade then immediately spiraling about it bc :))))) yippee :))))))))))

okay this is already embarrassingly long so im gonna stop but i just have so many rose thoughts dc hire me

#i totally havent thought about this too much what are you talking about #rose wilson #dc

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gay-ppl-blog · 1 year

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Robin AU Timeline

(Decade 1)

Age Key (in relation to Gabriel’s age):

Gabriel: +0

Jason: +0

Livia: +1

Jaime: +1

Nico: -2

Steph: -2

Cisco: +2

Cass: -3

Tim: -3

Bernard: -3

Dick: +3

Wally: +4

Bart: -4

Roy: +5

Barbara: +6

Damian: -9

Eryx: -14

Zatanna: +11

Ace: -18

Bruce: +18

Barry: +22

Max: -24

Zip: -29

Zap: -29

Year 0

Jason is born. (August 16)*

Barry starts his career at the CCPD.

Bruce starts training with David Cain.

Gabriel is born. (December 25)**

*There’s about 4 months between Gabriel and Jason, so Jason is one grade ahead of Gabriel.

**Gabriel’s birth name is Lucia, but I’ll be calling him Gabriel on this timeline.

Year 1

Bruce meets Zatara and Zatanna.

Year 2

Nico is born. (June 26)

Steph is born. (August 11)*

*There’s only about a month and a half between Steph and Nico, so they’re in the same year, but they don’t go to the same school.

Year 3

Cass is born. (January 26)

Tim is born. (July 19)

Bernard is born. (May 1)

Barry meets Iris for the first time.

Nico’s mother is sent to prison for a crime she didn’t commit.*

Mother dies in prison.

Father leaves.

Nico is almost put into the system.

Friends of his parents with ties to the Ring adopt him and Livia.**

Barry gets his powers.

*She killed someone by accident because they attacked her and her toxic blood killed them.

**Makes me wonder if his birth parents also had ties to the Ring.

Year 4

Gabriel’s mother starts to get sick.

His dad starts to get verbally abusive.

Nico’s parents find out he’s a meta. They decide to protect him, and they explain the risks to Nico as well as they can.

Leonard Snart becomes Captain Cold.

Year 5

Gabriel starts school.

The Justice League is founded.

Iris and Barry start dating.

Year 6

Wally meets Barry.

Dick comes to Gotham. His parents are killed by Tony Zucco. Tim Drake is there when this happens.*

Bruce starts training him.

Zucco is captured.

Dick creates the Robin mantle.

*Tim is ~4 here.

Year 7

Barry meets Eobard Thawne for the first time.

Snart forms the Rogues.

Year 8

Dick founds the Teen Titans.

Wally gets his powers and becomes Kid Flash.

Gabriel’s sister dies.

He moves to the United States and starts elementary school there.

His dad starts pushing the “powerful friends” agenda, which leads to a few toxic relationships already.

Gabriel spends a lot of time doing “boy things”.

Wally joins the Teen Titans.

Year 9

Damian is born. (January 5)

Gabriel’s dad hits him for the first time.

Year 10

Barbara meets Batman. She becomes Batgirl.

Nico gets hurt in public. He’s outed to the Ring as a meta. His adoptive parents are murdered.

Nico and Livia get taken by the Ring.

Nico meets Hound.

Nico and Livia interact. The Ring separates them and feeds Hound lies about Livia hurting Nico.

The Ring finds out how fragile Nico is but also decides to keep him. He's put into solitary.

Ring starts to run tests on Nico, Hound is put in with him because both help to control the other.

Hound and Nico bond in their weird way.

Barry and Iris get married.

*Timeline is subject to change*

#Robin AU Timeline #dc ocs #Noah ✨#cw abuse mention #cw major character death #cw trafficking mention #(the ring is not very nice)

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scorpionyx9621 · 3 years

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Do you think Jason Todd fandom is kinda toxic? Because it seems like NO MATTER what DC do, there'll always be complains. Forget the bad adaptation like Titans. Even Judd Winick cannot escape the criticism with how he potrayed Robin!Jason. They just never satisfied.

SORRY, IT TOOK ME SO LONG TO RESPOND TO THIS. I just moved from Washington D.C. to Seattle, which, for my non-American friends, that's 4442km away. And I DROVE THERE ALL BY MYSELF. And now I'm trying to find new work in a new city and trying to stay mentally healthy and positive. Life is exciting but hard and scary.

*sighs*

As someone who was a fandom elder with V*ltr*n. I've seen some of the worst when it comes to fandom behavior. I'm talking people baking food with shaving razors and trying to give them to the showrunners. I'm talking leaking major plot details and refusing to take it down unless they make their ship canon (I am looking at you, Kl*nce stans) For the most part, DC Comics has had a decades-long reputation of treating their fans like trash and not caring what they think so from what I've seen, we all just grumble and complain in our corners of the internet about how we don't like how X comic portrays Jason Todd.

The challenge with Jason Todd is that he's your clinical anti-hero, the batfamily's Draco in Leather Pants, he's a jerkass woobie, and on top of all of that, he's a Tumblr sexyman. It's a perfect storm for a very fun but frustrating character to be a fan of. It doesn't help that every writer decides to re-invent the wheel every time Jason comes up so his canon lore is confusing at best and inconsistent as a standard.

I guess starting with a general brief on who Jason is and what is uniform about him with every instance he's appeared in comics/media.

Grew up in a poor family in Gotham with a dad who was a petty-mid-level criminal, and a mother who dies of a drug overdose.

Survives on the street on his own by committing petty crimes and potentially even engaging in sexual acts to keep himself alive.

Is cornered by Batman and taken in after Dick Grayson quits/is fired

Becomes the second Robin, but is known for being the harsher, more brutal Robin.

Is killed by Joker after being tortured, but somehow comes back to life and regains senses through the Lazarus Pit

Resolves himself to be better than Batman by basically being Batman but kills people.

Where there has been a lot of conflict in the fandom is the fact that Jason Todd is not a character that is written consistently. DC Comics loves to go with the narrative that Jason was "bad from the start" and was the "bad robin" when, yes, he has trouble controlling his anger, but he also still is just as invested in seeing the best of Gotham City and trying to be a positive change for the world as any other DC Comics hero.

Where I get frustrated with the fandom is its ability to knit-pick every detail of a comic they don't like while completely disregarding everything that makes the comics great and worth it to read. My example being Urban Legends. To which most people had pretty mixed reactions to. I was critical of the comic at first but as it went along I ended up really liking it. I have a feeling DC Comics went to Chip Zdarsky and told him he had 6 issues to bring Jason back into the Bat Family, and honestly he didn't do a bad job. Did it feel rushed? Absolutely. I wish there was more development of Jason and Bruce's characters and their dynamic as a whole. However, where I see a lot of people being angry and upset with Urban Legends is that they feel Zdarsky needlessly wrote Jason as an incompetent fool who needs Bruce to save him.

Whether or not that was the intention of Zdarsky is up to debate. However, and this may be controversial, but I don't think he wrote Jason Todd out of character at all. For as fearsome, intimidating, and awesome as Red Hood is. Jason is a character who is absolutely driven by his emotions. Why do you think he donned the role of Red Hood? As a response to his anger towards The Joker for killing him, and towards Bruce for not taking action against The Joker and for seemingly replacing him so quickly after he died. Jason didn't care about being the murderous Robin Hood or for being the bloody hammer of justice against N*zi's and P*d*ph*les. He only cared originally about making The Joker and Bruce pay. It wasn't until he trained under the best assassins in the world and realized most of them were horrific criminals who trafficked children and were p*dos that Talia began to realize that the teachers that she sent Jason to train under started dying horrific and painful deaths.

The entire story of the Cheer story in Batman Urban Legends was started because it finally forced some consequences upon Jason. Tyler, aka Blue Hood's father was a drug dealer who gave his supply to his wife and kids. And when Tyler's father admitted he gave the drugs to Tyler, it immediately made him fall within the self-imposed philosophical kill-list of Jason Todd. And Jason, well, he proceeds to kill Tyler's father. When this happens, Jason is in shock. Tyler's dad fit the bill to easily and justifiably be killed by Jason. We've never seen Jason having to deal with the consequences of being a murderous vigilante on a micro-level. When Jason realizes what he's done in that he's murdered Tyler's dad, he's shocked. He tells Babs the truth. He does a rational thing because he's in shock. He doesn't know what to do, he never has had to face the consequences of his actions as Red Hood and now the gravity of befriending a child as a vigilante hero who kills people just set in when he killed the father of the same child he was just introduced to.

(Oh here's a little aside because it had to be said, Jason would not have been a good father or a good mentor to Tyler and absolutely should not have been his new Robin. Jason is a man who is in his early 20's (not saying men in their early 20's can't be good fathers at all) who is a brutal serial killer using the guise of a vigilante anti-hero to let him escape most of the law. the complications of having the man who murdered your father adopt you and make you his sidekick are way too numerous for me to explain in a long-winded already heavy Tumblr essay post. There's a reason why we don't advocate for a story where Joe Chill adopted Bruce Wayne or one where Tony Zucco took in Dick Grayson.)

The next biggest argument is that they feel that Jason is giving up his guns as a means to just be invited back into the Bat-Family. To which I will tell anyone who has that argument to go actually read Urban Legends. Already have and still have that argument? Please re-read it. Don't want to? That's okay, I will paste the images from the comic where Jason specifically says that he doesn't want to give up his weapons for Bruce and his real reasoning down below since the comic isn't exactly readily accessible.

Jason gave up the guns because he felt the gravity of what he had done and knows how it'll effect Tyler. Thankfully his mom is alive and in recovery. But Tyler doesn't have a father anymore. And Jason killed Tyler's father. It may have been in accordance to Jason's philosophy, but it was a case where it blurred the lines. Jason Todd isn't a black and white character, just very dark gray. He doesn't kill aimlessly like the Joker. If you are on Jason's list you probably have done something pretty horrific, and also just in general, being in his way or being a threat to him. Mind you, in early days of Red Hood and the Outlaws (Image below) Jason almost killed 10 innocent civilians in a town in Colorado all because they saw him kill a monster. That being said, Jason isn't aimless in his kills.

(Also can we just take a moment to appreciate Kenneth Rocafort's art? DC Comics said we need to rehabilitate Jason Todd's image and Kenneth Rocafort said hold my beer: It's so SO GOOD)

That being said, the key emphasis in the story of Cheer asides from trying to introduce Jason Todd back into the Bat Family and give an actual purpose for him being there, other than him just kind of being there ala Bowser every time he shows up for Go Kart racing, Tennis, Golf, Soccer, and the Olympic games when Mario invites him, is that Jason and Bruce ultimately both want the same thing. Jason wants to be welcomed back into the family and to be loved and appreciated. Bruce want's Jason back as his son and wants to love and protect Jason. Both of these visions are shown in the last chapter of Cheer while under the effect of the Cheer Gas. It's ultimately this love and appreciation they both have for each other that helps them overcome their challenge and win.

Jason Todd is a character who, just like Bruce, has been through so much pain and so much hate in his life. The two are meant to parallel each other. While Bruce chose to see the best in everyone, giving every rogue in his gallery the option to be helped and give them a second chance, hence why he never kills, Jason has a similar view on wanting to protect the public, but he understands that some crimes are so heinous they cannot be forgiven, or that some habitual criminals are due to stay habitual criminals, and need to be put down. But at the end of the day, the two of them both try to protect people in their own ways.

I am aware that through the writings of various DC Comics authors such as Scott Lobdell and Judd Winick, the two have had a very tumultuous relationship. And rightfully so, I am by no means saying that Scott Lobdell writing an arc where Bruce literally beats Jason to within an inch of his life in Red Hood and the Outlaws, nor Judd Winick's interpretation of Under the Red Hood where Bruce throws the Batarang at Jason's neck, slicing his throat and leaving him ambiguously for dead at the end of the comic is appropriate considering DC Comics seems to be trying everything they can to integrate Jason back into the family. That being said, a lot of these writings have shaped the narrative of Jason and Bruce's relationship and have an integral effect on the way the fandom views the two. It doesn't help that Zdarsky acknowledged Lobdell's life-beating of Jason by Bruce at the very end of Cheer by having Bruce give Jason his old outfit back as a means of mending the fence between the two of them. That does complicate a lot of things in terms of how they are viewed by the fandom and helps to cause an even greater divide between the two.

Regardless, I want to emphasize the fact that Jason Todd is a part of the family of his own accord. Yes, he's quite snarky and deadpan in almost every encounter. However, Jason is absolutely a part of the family and has been for a while of his own will. There's a great moment in Detective Comics that emphasizes this. Jason cares about his family because it is his found family. Yes, they may be warry about him and use him as a punching back and/or heckle him. At the end of the day, we're debating the family dynamics of a fictional playboy billionaire vigilante whose kleptomania took the form of adopting troubled children and turning them into vigilante heroes. Jason Todd wants a family that will love and support him. This is a key definition of his character at its most basic. This was proven during the events of Cheer and is being reenforced by DC Comics every time they get the opportunity to do so.

Now, none of this is to say that I hate Judd Winick. I do not, I don't like the fact that in all of his writings of Jason, he just writes him as a dangerous psychopath, and Winick himself admits to seeing Jason as nothing much more than a psychopath. Yet Winick is the one who the majority of the fandom clings to as the one true good writer of Jason Todd because 'Jason was competent, dangerous, smart' Listen, friends, Jason is all of that and I will never deny it. However, what I love about Jason isn't that he's dangerously smart of that writers either write him as angsty angry Tumblr sexyman bait or that they write him as an infantile man child with a gun. There's a large contention of this fandom that has an obsession with Jason Todd being this vigilante gunman who is hot and sexy and while I definitely get the appeal. It is very creepy and downright disturbing that all of you hyperfixate on his use of guns and ability to be a murderer. It is creepy and I'm not necessarily here for it.

What I love about Jason Todd is that despite all of the pain, all of the heartache, all of the betrayal, and bullying, and death, and anguish. Jason Todd is one of the most loving and supportive characters in all of DC Comics. Jason has been through so much in his life, but he still chooses to love. He still chooses to see the bright side in people. Yes, he takes a utilitarian approach and chooses to kill certain villains, but at the end of the day he wants to see a better world, and he wants to be loved. It takes so much courage and so much heart to learn to love again after one has been abused or traumatized. I would not blame Jason at all if he said fuck it and just went full solo and vigilante evil. He has every right to, but he still chooses to be with the Bat Family of his own accord. That's something that I see a lot of in myself. I have been through a lot of trauma and yet I try to be a better person myself in any way that I can. It is extremely admirable of Jason to allow love back into his heart when he really doesn't need to. He kills and he protects because he has this love of society. It may have been shaped by anger and hatred, but Jason has found his place amongst people who love him and value him. I think Ducra, from Red Hood and the Outlaws put it best in the image given below.

To end this tangent, I love Jason Todd and all of his sexy dangerousness, but it's far more than that. As much as Jason may be dangerous and snarky, he loves his family without a shadow of a doubt. I look up to Jason Todd because despite all of his pain and all of his trauma, he still choses to love. Jason Todd is a character who is someone I love because despite all of his flaws and having a very toxic fandom, he still serves as a character filled with so much heart and so much passion. I wish more writers would understand that. But for now I will live with what I have. Even though the fandom may be vocal about it's hatred for his characterization, I choose to love Jason regardless because he is a character who chooses love and acceptance regardless of his pain. Jason Todd is by no means a good person in any sense of the word. He has easily killed upwards of 100 people by now. He is a character who is flawed and complex but ultimately is one who powers forwards and finds love and heart in a place from so much pain and anguish. That is what I love about Jason Todd. After all, to quote a famous undead robot superhero, "What is grief, if not love persevering?" Jason Todd chooses to love despite all of the trauma and pain and grief. Yes, he is hardened in his exterior, but inside there is a man with a lot of love to give and someone who deserves the world in my eyes.

#Long post GOD #Jason Todd #Red Hood #Bat Family #Batman #red hood and the outlaws #RHATO #RH:O #Batman Urban Legends #Red Hood Lost Days #TW Voltron #TW Death #tw murder #TW Klance #Gotta love how i am pouring my heart out onto jason AND calling out the Voltron fandom #Regardless love Jason Todd people

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peppersonironi · 3 years

Note

12, 21, 19

(Is this late? Oops. Sorry!)

12: Favourite character to write about this year

Stephanie Brown, easy. She's my spirit animal, so I might be doing a touch of projecting, but I honestly don't care. She's just pure chaos in the best way. Some of my favourite lines that I've written are for her. Such as:

"What's up bitches? I brought donuts!"

"My waffles await!"

"FEAR ME!"

"Welcome to Steph’s Glitter Bomb Palace, Where Snitches get Stitches™! So don’t tell Bruce or I’ll sic Jason on you."

She's also the character I've gotten the most comments on. People really seen to enjoy how I write her!

A close second would be Duke Thomas. Bliss, a fic I wrote for the 2020 Duke Week, was one of my favourites! Or maybe Damian? His dialogue just comes easy to me.

21: Most memorable comment/review

the batfamily exist:

everyone: is,,is that allowed?

On Code Orange (Batfam/Young Justice Crossover)

*Or*

I have wanted to read a DCU/MCU crossover for a VERY long time. This story is such a delight. Your characterisation (and for me an introduction to The Signal) was fascinating in the extreme. I loved the game playing and the fact that I could watch (open-mouthed) as Bruce Wayne enjoyed childlike fun with his children and Alfred(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) was the cherry on top of the icing on top of the cake. I look forward to your updates in a way that you wouldn't believe.

On Batfam/Avengers Crossover

19: Any new fics to start next year

Oh boy. So many. You know what? Here's a list. It'll be good to get these ideas out. Plus, you guys can tell me what you'd rather see first!

Gen/just Batfam

Crack fic based off this piece of dialogue (came from a convo between my sister and I): Tim reached forward and poked Duke's face. "You're right!" He exclaimed. "You really *do* squish like a block of wood!" Duke Centric.

Based on THIS Incorrect Quotes. Talia moves into the Manor because she's sick of Ra's. Featuring a bunch of good mom!Talia.

Based off THIS Incorrect Quotes. Jason runs for President as Red Hood. I have so many ideas! This'll be really fun.

Loosely based on THIS post. It explores Jason and Cassandra's relationship, and how it evolves.

Duke Thomas Big Bang Fic (can't say much, but it'll be great!)

Platonic (need to be certain you understand that. There were some misconceptions w/ my Discord server) Slow Burn between Tim and Damian. At the beginning the absolutely despise each other. But over time they realise their own insecurities, and how they don't actually hate the other. And by the end they fully admit and embrace their being brothers.

Reverse Robins with Damian as the oldest (I made THIS post talking about it a while back. But I've highly revised it.)

Reverse Robins with Duke as the oldest (I wrote THIS fic, but I think I want to change this into a series!)

Cassandra as Batman. Stephanie as Catwoman. Carrie Kelley as Robin.

5 Times Bette Kane was the mastermind behind the batkids' pranks without Bruce's knowledge, and 1 Time her brilliance was brought to light.

5 Times Duke thought that he couldn't possibly get any more siblings and 1 Time he met the cousins (AKA: Duke meets the extended family)

Birdflash

Birdflash in the JL/JLU universe (based off that one hexagon by @novaviis ! Super fun!). The league is inviting potential members to the Watchtower one day. Except Wally wasn't there during the choosing of said members. So he's completely shocked when his husband Nightwing shows up. They have to act like they don't know each other, which basically involves Dick flirting his butt off with Wally, Wally trying desperately to remain professional, Bruce digging in the corner, the rest of the League in varying degrees of disapproval and confusion (at least a couple have seen Wally's wedding ring. So that adds a while 'nother layer).

Young Justice soulmate au. Dick, and eventually everyone else, knows that Wally is his soulmate. Wally is oblivious. Lots of pining and angst in this one. Slow burn to an extent (depends on how long I make it). But definitely a happy fluffy ending in sight!

Batfam Meets Young Justice

THIS fic.

Duke gets yeeted into the YJ universe, and promptly passes out. He wakes up in the Watchtower, and breaks out of the confinement the Team has set up for him. Pulls shenanigans (some unwittingly) and used his powers. The Team and JL are confused, and panicking. Because this guy keeps muttering things about the Batfam. And he has a bat on his chest.

The Team break into some ancient temple after getting info on a new Supervillian plot. They find purple clothed woman draped across a throne. She talks, and they panic, as she knows all their secret identities. The only one who isn't, is Tim. He looks bored. Alternatively: Steph needs Tim's credit card to take his sister out on a date, and absolutely refuses to text.

While the Team is on a mission to stop Lady Shiva, a dimensional portal opens up and spits out a strange Robin (Damian) and what seemed to be a female Batman (Cass as Black Bat). This new dynamic due promptly defeats Lady Shiva and all the goons. The Team is freaked out, and 'apprehends' the dimensional anomalies, bringing them back to the Watchtower. Where the due promptly break and and start chaos. Featuring "Toxic" by Britney Spears. I will not explain why.

The Watchtower gets a sudden emergency message from the Batcave. They accept, to find a stranger calling himself Signal panicking about Robin being missing. They all look at Tim, who ignores them, and says that he doesn't know where Robin is. Some naming shenanigans occur.

(Not sure if this fits here, oh well) Set in Season One, Bruce is tired of Clark's attitude towards Superboy, and adopts the clone himself. Not sure how far this'll go, but at least goes through Dick's time as Robin. (Based on THIS Tumblr post)

(Also iffy on placement) a continuation of one (not sure which? Probably Damian as older) Reverse Robins fics. It's a retelling of Season One of YJ, with Dick as Robin. Nightwing (Damian) feels protective of his brother, and so takes on the role Black Canary had in the show, training the Team. But as time goes on, he ends up being more of a big brother to the group. Cameos from the rest of the Batfam as well! And an Identity Reveal (including finding out Dick and Dami are brothers) at the end!

Batfam Meets the Justice League

Cass takes over being Batman for a bit, because Bruce was an idiot and broke his leg. This happens to line up with when the Justice League reach out to the Dark Knight, in order to extend an invitation to the league. They eventually meet Bruce as Batman, and are confused as to why he is so tall. And male.

Joyfire

Lian accidentally reveals her three parents' relationship by calling Bruce 'grandpa' over dinner.

Museum Heist

THIS fic

Operation: Seduce Nightwing. Based on a post for an ATLA ot3, Wally and Artemis realise silumaneously “Hey, we kinda have the hots for Dick” and decide together to see if he likes them back. Which involves a heck ton of over the top flirting, and shenanigans. The Team is sighing on the sidelines at their idiocy. Dick is internally combusting and thinking “Do they like me back? I’’m not sure.”

5 times Dick and Wally fought over being the middle spoon, and one time Artemis had had enough.

Set in Season 3 (but ignores some canon), Bart is kidnapped by some mad scientist obsessed with the Speed Force. The Team mobilizes, and gets Bart back from the evil base. But when they get there, they find Wally West freed from the Speed Force. He and Artemis reunite, and everyone is happy. They prepare to leave. Then the Pick-up Squad arrive in the bioship, and Dick gets out. Everyone is expecting Dick to give Wally a hug, because hey, he's his best friend! What they weren't expecting was him to run forward and pull the speedster into a passionate kiss. They go back to the Watchtower, and some more stuff happens.

Soulmate AU where the first thing your soulmate says to you after they fall in love with you is tattooed on your body.

Post Season Two Get Together. Starts with Artemis living with Dick as opposed to Will. Might be Slow Burn? (They come pretty close to kissing) Eventually Wally comes back. Arty and Wally are back together. They both live in the same house as Dick, for convenience. Then some more Slow Burn happens. Maybe some Birdflash moments. Arty tells Wally she kinda had a thing for Dick. Wally admits the same. Maybe a touch more Slow Burn. They Eventually get together.

Batlantern

AU where Bruce met Hal back when he first came back to Gotham. Fic goes through how their relationship evolves over the years (up until current time, when Damian is 13). I'm considering a relationship reveal with the Justice League.

Hal's interactions with Bruce's kids.

Green Lantern Corp acting protective of Hal when Bruce comes to Oa. This was an ask that I got, and I'm holding off on writing it till I get as much into on the GL's as possible, as all I know if their characterization comes from that animated series, and Guy Gardener's (Hilarious!) parts on Young Justice.

Marvel

Like 3 different versions of the Peter Parker Field Trip to Stark Tower Trope.

2-part Crossover with the Batfam (they exist in the same universe), where the Avengers go to a Wayne Gala, and interact with the family. The second chapter involves them heading out the next night to try and contact Batman.

THIS fic.

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taliaquinn · 4 years

Text

Why Me!? Chapter 15

A/N: Sorry I took a while to update my peeps. Fun fact this chapter was originally over 2,500 words so I split it. After going through a massive edit it was still long anyways:). So Enjoy the fact that Chapter 16 is going to come out very soon, also more one shots will be posted. Check out the most recent one if you guys haven’t :)

“NO WAY,NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT,” Marinette yelped “SCREW SOCIAL INTERACTION!!!” leaping from the chair she immediately started pacing around.

“Marinette you have to go to School, you’re too smart and can't always be cooped up here.” As much as Bruce would love having his children to stay in the relative safety of the house “Besides you wouldn’t be alone Tim and Damian both go to Gotham Academy”

“B-but Bruce” he allowed shock to flood his body because finally his daughter wasn’t calling him Mr.Wayne. Uck. He knew Stark was still dealing with that problem with his own protege. “Gotham Academy is one of the most prestigious schools in the States not to mention expensive”

“Marinette, do you realize that the cost is nothing to me?” Oh god he went through this with most of his children, the whole "please don’t waste your money on me” routine. “it’s my job as a father to make sure my kids are safe AND are receiving a great education”

“The cost means a lot to me-hold up don’t they offer scholarships?” She asked a glimmer of hope in her eyes

“Yes but they are mostly for kids who otherwise wouldn’t be able to attend, The Wayne foundation offers a few, anyways you won’t be completely alone Tim and Damian both go to Gotham Academy” Bruce explained, Jesus all of his kids were so weird about money, well most of them, Damian and Tim were something else.

“Ugh Fine, what about my parents? Will they be okay with it?” No way would Maman and Papa allow it.

“Oh they already enrolled you, your mother just thought that I deserved the honor of telling you” he said rolling his eyes.

“WHAT!!!!”

Oh boy maybe he should have let Dick and Alfred handle this.

Cesaire Apartment Paris, France 5:00pm

“Come on Think about it Nino, Marinette’s gone what could she do anyways?” Alya asked her boyfriend on facetime, unfortunately she and Nino couldn’t go out, both were stuck taking care of their siblings. Joy.

“Alya im not sure…... the article seems a bit too far, I mean Chat Noir hasn’t exactly been helpful lately, plus he HAS been acting rather childish lately,” Nino Responded, He might need glasses but that doesn't mean he was blind to the Chat Noir situation. He’s been distracting Ladybug and he hasn’t bothered showing up a few times to the Akuma Battles!!! Some hero. “Why not post the video of your interview with Adrien? That will instantly attract all of his uh eager fangirls” he offered

“Apparently sunshine boy has to ask his Dad for permission, so this article is the next best thing” The article she was referring to was in response to the video of Marinette lecturing Chat Noir. It wasn't as much fact based but opinion based

“Why are you still hung up on Marinette so much? She used to be our best friend”

“She's a bully, who constantly attacks Lila, and still hasn’t confessed to what she has done”

“What if it’s Lila who is lying?” Nino asked cautiously, he never knew what would set Alya off these days.

“Not you too, you know what? Maybe you should just switch classes like the rest of the traitors if you believe that” she scowled. “Go be on their side”

“Sides What sides? Alya there isn’t any sides”

“Yes there's the right side and the wrong side”

“What makes you so sure that we're on the right side?” Nino finally asked. He has been having his doubts. Something about Lila’s stories just wasn't adding up.

“You’re being Ridiculous Nino, You know what? I don't want to talk to you right now, you obviously won't listen” Alya screeched ending the call. Nino Stared at the dark screen with his jaw open in shock.

He’s being ridiculous?

It's his fault?

These last few weeks, Alya has been borderline unbearable. Nino found himself having to resist calling Marinette and asking her for advice.

On one hand it was out of guilt on the other hand some part of Nino already knew what she would say. She would tell him to break up with Alya. The relationship was getting far too toxic. He turned on his phone and clicked on Alyas contact. Thinking out his Message he finally typed the message he's been wanting to send for the last few days

Nino: Hey, I just don’t think this is working. This relationship is bad for the both of us. Ask Lila for help instead. Goodbye Al

Message Sent

Message Received

Wayne Manor Gotham,USA 8 pm

“Trust me Pixiepop Dick is the last person to ask for advice concerning school, Dickhead was smart, sure, but he also dropped out of college ” Jason explained to Marinette, who was mopping about school “He decided to enroll in the Police Academy instead, believe me Bruce was pretty pissed about that”

“B-ut it he quit to do something he actually likes, I doubt he actually wanted to be a businessman,” Marinette retorted. “speaking of which do you think he’s doing alright in Bludhaven?” She asked her voice laced with concern.

Jason knew for a fact that Dick wasn’t doing that great, he was pulling overtime as Officer Grayson and working the night as Nightwing, Bruce and Tim weren’t fairing that great either. The impending gang war was keeping most of the local vigilante community busy.

“I’m sure he’s fine pixie pop”

He was absolutely not fine.

Unbeknownst to them, Nightwing had walked right into an ambush inside a warehouse right next to Bludhaven Bay. With a few more hours of sleep Nightwing might’ve had a higher chance of winning , unfortunately he was running on 3 hours of sleep a night so he was getting quickly overwhelmed.

After one too many punches Nightwing finally put out a distress alert.

“Master Jason, You have a Call from Bludhaven Bay, Your friend there seems to be in need of your help”

“I’ll take it, Sorry Maribug seems like I have to head out right about now.” Jason he quickly answered. Fuck. Dick was in danger.

“Why?” Marinette asked puzzled, why not just take the call here? “Cause This dingwatt friend of mines only calls me if he’s in trouble or about to be”

“Can I come w-” Marinette was cut off by her phone chirping crap akuma.

“Actually you know what? Better not keep you” she said walking backwards towards the door “Stay safe Jay, see ya, toodles~”. She quickly exited and quickly walked towards her room.

“She's hiding something isn’t she Alfie?” Jason said after witnessing Marinette's strange departure

“It is blatantly obvious Master Jason, although I do believe she is permitted to do so seeing as how we all have our small secrets” Alfred said with a huff. His hopes for a normal grandchild have just been dashed. Maybe he will have better luck with great-children? Shaking his heads to clear his thought he and Jason quickly made their way towards the Batcaves entrance,

Jason stopped mid stride an odd feeling overcoming him “You feel that?” Jason asked feeling a rush of warmth

“Feel what Master Jason?”

“Nevermind let's go save Dickie-bird”

Welp I hoped you enjoyed today’s update :). Also I hope you guys have been taking care of yourselves. I know that it has been a bit different lately due to well everything. Please feel free to message me if you guys need to. Stay safe and healthy ❤️

Also if the text is a bit wonky i’m sorry, still learning all the tips and tricks

Taglist:

@maribat-is-lifeblood @kass-is-weird @another-fan-of-anotherplan @damianette-is-life @amayakans @parallelparabox @miukiiu @valeks-princess @toodaloo-kangaroo @vixen-uchiha @thezestywalru @dreamykitty25 @pirats-pizzacanninibles @mochinek0 @shamefullove @mochegato @souleateralicestein @thestressmademedoit @throneoffirebreathingbitchqueen @aestheticnpoetic @mysupporthyperfixations @itsmeevie01

#miraculous ladybug #mlb au #maribat #batfam #Marinette deserves better #Damian Wayne #dick grayson #tim drake #jason todd #bruce wayne #class salt

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incoherentbabblings · 4 years

Note

I love timsteph but it's depressing trying to find fics where they aren't exes or the main pairing isn't batcest or some other tim and stephanie ship with other people. I found some anti saying it was boring and steph was irrelevant unless she was with tim, that the shippers were annoying and they hated her. Their username is corefour on AO3. Can you please tell me why you ship timsteph and why they work well together, that anti's toxic rhetoric really brought me down and I like your timsteph.

I know that feeling anon. I remember when it was still common to call Steph Tim’s beard and how angry that used to make me. I saw that fic. Do your best to not engage with things that make you sad. They can post what they like, and as much as I wish it wasn’t in the pairing tag, these things happen so best just let it pass you by. I got back into fic writing because YJ#5 just made me so happy, and yeah there are days when I come back from the office and I don’t get any writing done, but if I could not work a 9-5 job rest assured I’d be writing all day to clean up the pairing tag (and doing my cross stitch… and playing my nintendo games… and cooking mac n cheese)

To help cheer you up, here are some things I love about Tim and Steph as a couple.

Okay, so there’s this tie in issue to Batman Brave and the Bold cartoon series and it’s just a little side story where all the robins are called across time to help Batman out and aside from a great moment where Damian tells Jason that yes Dick is in charge so suck it up (he’s Dami’s Batman after all) Dick pairs of Tim and Steph to watch over Bruce whilst he Jason Damian and Carrie go get help. Anyway here’s my two favourite panels:

So in these couple of panels, you have Steph’s inferiority complex rearing its head, which she always reacts defensively to, Tim reassuring her. Then you have Dick noting that yeah she’s good but paired with Tim they are a pretty solid pair. Like this is a solid trope - Red Oni, Blue Oni, Leader and Lancer… like that’s a tried and tested formula that works well, and those two fit it to a t.

When Tim is honest with Stephanie, she is a non judgemental voice for him to voice his concerns to - she’s the only one who knows him for every aspect of his life, and can still give an outsiders perspective. She’s protective over him from Bruce’s treatment, she isn’t really keen on Jack.

When Stephanie is honest with Tim, he pulls her back to what actually is the core of the issue, as she tends to always assume the worst in folk (low self esteem yello) and he gives her a lot of help when she’s first getting started. Equipment, training, missions with him.

You can argue that Tim wasn’t supportive of Steph but honestly I dunno. He has been extremely supportive of her since the reboot right from the word go (before then… he was one of the only people taking her social media warnings seriously), Jon Lewis wrote Tim and Steph are like… a unit, and Chuck Dixon had most of Tim’s complaints about Steph be so superficial as the aim was to show that Tim really actually was enjoying Steph’s company more than he was willing to admit to himself at the time. Tim’s just…a happier person with Steph in Gotham. Besides, Tim grew up and realised that with Batgirl came a lot of maturing for Steph. All he does is compliment her after the initial hurr burr I told u no costume hurr burr argument.

He respects her space, and so does she. Honestly before the arc leading up to the name reveal she never nagged him about who he was, Tim just would blab to her because, as I mentioned, she’s a good listener with an outsider’s perspective and Tim would often slip up and let things slide like Ari or his friends or even Bruce. The more he did this the more Steph grew head over heels for him. This boy? This brave, gentle, kind, earnest boy chose her. And he can’t tell her everything though it’s obvious he really wants to… so she’ll listen, and be what she can for him.

Listen, I love them both because it’s two teenagers who have grown up in emotionally difficult circumstances, either through outright abuse or neglect, finding out what it’s like to be in love with someone who loves you back for the first time and neither of them are very good at accepting that fact, and Steph’s insecurities get the better of her to the point where, yes, it does wreck the relationship, and by the time she works her way through them and pays the city back for what happened during the gang war Tim has started to emotionally shut down. And that’s heartbreaking for them, as Tim wants to be with her but she sees someone who just isn’t stable or open enough to see it through.

And yet, she gets through to him every time, and he knows he can call on her for help. And then in Convergence it’s still Steph saying “Look you have to talk to me, please.” and Tim providing her with a physical comfort she can’t find elsewhere.

Post reboot it’s just two teenagers completely head over heels for the other and even then it’s because the two of them are one hundred percent supportive of the other and Steph sees Tim a legit madman who’s her best hope of helping people whilst also having a much better life then what her parents would have given her and Tim is so head over heels for her he drops Cassandra ‘literal demigoddess’ Sandsmark in favour of this homeless hobo girl who: a) probably hadn’t had the chance to shower in days and b) punched Owlman in the face screaming that she was Batman. What a legend. I would go full heart eyes too for her.

The tragedy for both of them is that they kind of want that white picket fence life, they want to be selfish. But they can’t ever turn away from people that need them and that’s kind of what I love best about them. They’re just two people who want to do well by others. How can I not love them?

#dc #ask and i'll babble #timsteph #tim drake #stephanie brown #Anonymous #timsteph meta

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nadjadoll · 4 years

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YOU GUYS!! ❤️❤️❤️ @denerims @foofygoldfish @firstofficeruna @outranks

I owe you all my entire heart thank you for letting me ramble about these two dorks

long text wall ahead

1. Who is the most affectionate? Neither of them are very outwardly affectionate in public, especially Jason but you get them alone in close quarters and they’re all over each other. Jason in particular loves to give her little kisses or just have her near him because I think he really craves that kind of love. It does take a while for them both to open up to each other initially though.

2. Big spoon/Little spoon? Jason is much bigger than Olivia but he loves being the little spoon most of the time. He’s very physically intimidating and tough but when it’s just the two of them he melts around her and like I said above, he craves her love and attention even if he feels he doesn’t deserve it at times.

3. Most common argument? I think it would be about Olivia going out on patrol with one of the other family members/on her own or just about her getting into dangerous situations in general. Jason is very protective of her like he is with all his loved ones. He’s been injured and near death many many times and he really doesn’t want that for her but he can’t exactly argue with her when she throws that back in his face because she doesn’t want that for him either.

After some training from primarily Dick, Barbara and Tim though Jason feels a bit better about Olivia going and doing those things though he still isn’t very happy about it.

Olivia loves Jason but she hates when he treats her like a fragile little child that needs to be sheltered, she’s been on her own for a long time before he came around and she could take care of herself even before she got her powers.

They never argue for long though they’re terrible at verbally apologizing to each other and instead make up in other ways…

4. Favorite non-sexual activity? Reading together. Whenever they have some time off, they’ll sit in Jason’s place on those rainy days and just read. It’s very quiet and a peaceful change from their often dangerous hectic lives.

5. Who is most likely to carry the other? Jason, he’s much stronger than her haha she tried to carry him once but he’s built like a brick wall and just about as heavy, she couldn’t even get him off the ground.

6. What is their favorite feature of their partners? For Jason, it’s Olivia’s smile. Before she met him and the family, she hardly ever smiled. When they’re together though he loves making her smile or laugh more than anything.

For Olivia, it’s Jason’s eyes. When she really gets to know him, she can read him like a book just by looking at his eyes. They’re her favorite shade of blue and she blushes a bit every time she catches him looking at her.

7. What is the first thing that changes when they realize they have feelings for the other? For Jason, it’s an “oh shit” moment and he leaves the city for like a week because he needs to be sure of it and honestly it scares him quite a bit.

By the time they catch feelings for each other, Olivia’s pretty involved with the family and the vigilante stuff so it’s hard for him to avoid her but boy does he try. It obviously doesn’t last long and after a bit of urging from Dick, he accepts it.

8. Nicknames? & If so, how did they originate? Nothing much besides the usual Jay/Liv. Olivia is the only person allowed to call Jason “Jay” too, everyone else gets a death glare.

9. Who worries the most? They worry about the same amount. Jason worries because one of his biggest fears is someone he loves getting hurt which is why he doesn’t let her go on patrol with him for the longest time.

Olivia worries because she’s lost a lot of people she’s cared about and when Jason comes along, it’s like no one else matters to her anymore. So she worries every time he goes out because it seems like Red Hood has a lot more enemies and gets shot at quite a bit more than any of the other bat vigilantes.

10. Who remembers what the other one always orders at a restaurant? Olivia. She’s got a talent for remembering things about other people but absolutely terrible at remembering things for herself. They eat out a lot and everything he likes is the kind of thing she just knows and never really has to think about.

11. Who tops? 🙈

12. Who initiates kisses? Jason, especially if it’s little pecks of a kiss, Olivia gets a lot of those. Except for their first kiss, she can usually always tell when he’s about to give her a serious kiss just by looking at his eyes.

13. Who reaches for the other's hands first? I would say it’s an even mix of both. If they’re in a dangerous situation she’ll reach for him and he’ll shield her without even thinking about it.

14. Who kisses the hardest? Olivia. A lot of people have come and gone in her life so when she gets attached to someone, she holds onto them hard.

15. Who wakes up first? Jason. He’s had plenty of nights with little or no sleep so he doesn’t actually sleep much at all. After he and Olivia start living together though he does manage to get a few good nights of sleep a week.

16. Who wants to stay in bed just a little longer? Olivia, when Jason is awake it’s time to get up and go but Olivia is the one trying to persuade him to stay for just 5 more minutes which then turns into a few hours 👀

17. Who says I love you first? Jason, it was one of those times where he just blurted it out without thinking and regretted it immediately. It actually took a little bit of time after that for Olivia to say it back to him in the meantime Jason contemplated how hard it would be to convince Clark to throw him into the sun.

18. Who leaves little notes in the other one’s lunch? (Bonus: what does it usually say?) If they were ever to have a set lunch they really never do I like to see them drawing dumb little doodles on sticky notes back and forth to each other

19. Who tells their family/friends about their relationship first? This is very sad to say but Olivia has no biological family or friends my poor baby. Jason doesn’t explicitly tell anyone about them getting together but Dick was the one who kind of nudged Jason to go after her after he noticed how he felt about her like the good big brother he is. So when they get together, Dick is actually the one who breaks the news to the family ha.

20. What do their family/friends think of their relationship? The Batfam think Olivia is a wonderful influence on Jason. She gets him to open up a bit more and rounds his hard edges. Dick is the biggest supporter and hugged them both for a solid 10 minutes when he found out about their relationship. Overall they’re all really happy for Jason because they see how happy Olivia makes him. Alfred is the second biggest supporter of them because he remembers just how lonely Jason used to be when he was younger.

21. Who is more likely to start dancing with the other? Jason, he would never let anyone know it but he’s a total romantic dork. When they get to the comfortable part of the relationship, he’s doing all those cute sappy things like serenading her in his boxers just to make her laugh or pulling her in for a slow dance on a rainy day so he can be close to her. It’s worth it to note Olivia is the worst of the worst at dancing but he tries anyway.

22. Who cooks more/who is better at cooking? In my fic Jason lives in Chinatown and with both of their busy crime-fighting schedules, they don’t really get to slow down and cook much. When they do it’s actually usually Olivia with very little help from Jason mostly because he’s absolutely disastrous at it. No amount of teaching from Alfred when he was younger helped that boy, but thankfully Olivia is naturally gifted.

23. Who comes up with cheesy pick-up lines? Jason ha. He thinks of them just randomly during the day. Picture Jason busting a drug deal or something, guns in hand and thinking of pick up lines that will make her laugh later accompanied by an eyebrow wiggle.

24. Who whispers inappropriate things in the other’s ear during inappropriate times? Jason absolutely. He has far more experience there than she does and it shows, he loves making her blush. Though once she did it back to him and well let’s just say it was almost over right then and there 👀

25. Who needs more assurance? Olivia does need assurance every so often but Jason for sure needs more. He still has quite a shaky relationship with the family, Bruce in particular so he can’t exactly get it from them not like he would ever ask them in the first place though.

26. What would be their theme song? I just found the song If I Killed Someone For You by Alec Benjamin and it’s a total Olivia/Jason song, it’s my favorite song on Olivia’s playlist by far.

Also it’s more of a song for them and the whole Batfam but I’ve always loved Family by Mother Mother and thought it works with Olivia & the whole batfam

“A motley crew, a rodeo A goddamn zoo, a circus show But oh don’t you know how it goes We are all walking each other home”

I can’t look at those lyrics and not think of them I mean come on.

Another choice would be Melanie Martinez’ cover of Toxic by Britney Spears

27. Who would sing their child back to sleep? Omg I can’t think about them having a child that’s too soft for my poor heart

Honestly, I think it would be Jason, he’s definitely not the singing type but I can see him cradling their baby and humming or singing lullabies very softly while Olivia watches from the doorway in tears at how much she loves them.

28. What do they do when they’re away from each other? Worry. A lot. They don’t really like to be away from each other and if they have to, they try to keep it short. Is Jason’s away he will call or text her when he can just to see if she’s alright and if Olivia is away for some reason though she never leaves Gotham, she tries very hard not to think of all the things that could happen to him while she’s away. Her powers do come in very handy if she needs to get to him quick though.

29. One headcanon about this OTP that breaks your heart. I feel like even when they’re together, Jason has a hard time loving himself and believing he’s deserving of the love Olivia gives him so in the beginning he pushes her away and from time to time he’s still pretty distant around her. Over time with being together, they begin to heal each other of wounds like that.

30. One headcanon about this OTP that mends it. I’ve mentioned it before in another post about them I think but I have a headcanon that while Olivia is the better cook, Jason does cook for her if she’s feeling down. He usually makes grilled cheeses like Alfred used to make for him when he was younger 😭

#olivia perry #olivia/jason #wow i got this done QUICK #because I JUST LOVE THEM SO MUCH OKAY #all those asks happened pretty much at the same time so i was like well #time to answer ALL THE QUESTIONS #i loved it though #i could ramble about these two for forever #you get extra points from me if you actually read through all of this #that would mean a lot to me

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bigskydreaming · 5 years

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And another thing!

Can we like, just collectively fuck offffffff with this whole ‘the natural opposite to Bruce’s abusive relationship with Jason is Jason having a warm, nurturing relationship with Talia after she adopts a pseudo maternal role with him when she dumps him in the Lazarus Pit’?

This trend has kinda been around forever, but I feel like its been popping up in like, every Jason-centric fic I read lately, and uggggh, dislike. Look, I actually feel no desire to defend Bruce and his parenting, ever. I try and go with AUs and canons like Young Justice where he’s like, Bad At It, but not to the point of the absolutely toxic abusive shit he’s guilty of in various writers’ runs in the comics, but that’s just because I want his kids to have nice things and his kids all at least WANTED Bruce to be a good father at one point. But if your take on Bruce is that he’s abusive despite his best intentions and the best thing for any one of his kids is to move on and get the hell away from him, I’m not gonna argue with you, or try and defend him in the slightest. I will read the fuck out of that, happily.

Until you try and pretend Talia’s not...just as bad?

Like, okay, I have complicated feelings on Talia, mostly because the shared universe nature of comics makes it impossible not to. She’s an extremely nuanced and complex character and has been for decades, which means I really enjoyed her and found her every bit as compelling as Bruce, until....Morrison happened. And I loathe Morrison’s dumbass writing and try and pay it as little heed as possible, so wherever possible, I go with one of the takes or canons or AUs where Bruce and Talia had fully consensual sex and she just never told him about Damian til later, because I will never ever ever excuse the date rape interpretation of Damian’s conception. And I’m fully aware that it was written that way largely BECAUSE Morrison’s a dumbass and most likely didn’t think through the full implications of what he probably just saw as an expedient way to give Bruce a longlost kid he knew nothing about, or how it would throw Talia’s character under the bus. It’s different with Dick and Tarantula, because Catalina didn’t have those decades of prior characterization and attachment, her agenda was pretty clear from not long after she debuted. (Although, we gotta talk about how just like with the aggressive man of color stereotype, the only times comics show a man being raped by a woman, its a woman of color. Pin in that for now).

So I mean, I don’t automatically write off Talia unless we’re dealing with a fic, AU or run in canon that clearly expresses its going with the version of events where she date raped Bruce. I vastly prefer being able to still enjoy her as the compelling equal and foil to Bruce that she was for a long fucking time before that.

But even with that, the idea that she’s a superior parent to Bruce and a convenient candidate to step into the void he leaves in any of his sons’ lives, let alone Jason, and just...Do Better....umm...how about could we not?

Like, YMMV obviously, but to me the entire point of Talia in the context of her relationship with Bruce has always been she and Bruce are as alike as they are at odds. Selina and Bruce, the appeal of their romantic dynamic is they’re opposites. Talia and Bruce....they have far more in common than they don’t. They have different goals, different lengths they’re willing to go to, they’re not the SAME by any means, but they understand each other in a way few other characters do, because deep down, they always GET why the other one does what they do.

So I mean, I’m not saying Talia is inherently WORSE than Bruce, I’m just arguing that even with all of Bruce’s flaws, she’s usually not any BETTER. Like...its pretty much a lateral move.

Sure, you could easily WRITE Talia as being a loving maternal figure to Jason or Damian or anyone....but just the same as you could write Bruce being a healthy paternal figure to them. The potential is there in either character, depending on what takes in canon you choose to focus on and you clarify where and in what ways you’re diverging from any takes where they both devolve into outright abuse of their kids. Because both definitely have, and thus, you don’t get to just....handwave away any problems with Talia’s character (and parenting) and default to her as this superior parental figure on the basis that hey, she’s not Bruce.

Like, okay....you want to write Jason moving on from Bruce and rejecting his attempts to reconcile because he’s come to view Bruce as having essentially raised them all to be child soldiers? I WILL TOTALLY BACK YOU ON THAT. I mean, the dude’s memorial to his SON, was a case containing his uniform and a plaque that said A GOOD SOLDIER. Case made, you know? Not one fucking argument from me. Your take is valid, and Jason’s complaint has my full backing.

But here’s the thing....if your fic does NOT significantly diverge from canon prior to Damian’s joining the rest of the Batfam, if it does NOT show Damian having a WILDLY different upbringing than he did in all versions of canon, and by extension, resulting in Damian having at least a somewhat different approach to interactions, worldview, mannerisms and ideology.....

Then no matter what relationship you craft between Jason and Talia, you are STILL swapping out his parental figure - who he resents for raising him as a child soldier - for another parental figure, who LITERALLY RAISED HER KID AS A CHILD SOLDIER.

Like, hellooooooo? Any take where Damian grew up in the League of Assassins without Talia objecting to him being trained with them or getting him the hell out of there, is a take where Talia literally does the exact same thing you’re holding against Bruce on Jason’s behalf. (While, I might add, ignoring that while Tim at least was well into his teenage years by the time Bruce became his mentor, Dick, Cass and Damian ALL have this child soldier upbringing in common with Jason. It really doesn’t work to single Jason out as the only one who was victimized by their parent in this way).

But okay. Let’s say you’ve got an explanation for Damian’s upbringing or have written that differently. If you’re going with the take that Jason has a connection with Talia now because Talia’s the one who put him in the Pit and either brought him back to life or restored him to full coherency, then almost inevitably (because you COULD do this differently, but I’ve yet to see a take where a writer DOES)....you’re also going with the take that before coming back to Gotham, Jason trained with the League of Assassins, and this is how he was so competent by the time he went up against Bruce and the others, given that he wasn’t nearly as skilled back when he died at age fifteen.

And it really, really, REALLY bugs the fuck out of me that people so rarely spend much time or focus looking critically at Jason’s time with the League of Assassins, and how that contributed to his ideology and methodology as the Red Hood.

And this is a complaint I have both with fics/writers/headcanons that are pro-Jason and anti-Jason.

Again, don’t get me wrong. I honestly don’t have a problem with Jason’s initial return to Gotham. Like, he can murder the fuck out of every rapist and crime boss he wants, I’ll be in the stands holding the OMG LOOK AT MY BABY, LOOK HOW GOOD AT MURDERING ASSHOLES HE IS sign and doing high kicks up and down the bleachers.

But ESPECIALLY if your take on Bruce and his raising of Jason is that he was abusive and trained him as a child soldier.....it absolutely IMO does not work to overlook the role the League of Assassins...and by extension Talia....played in shaping the man he was when he first returned to Gotham.

And they abso-fucking-lutely played a role.

Because Jason is not Bruce, was never going to be Bruce, was always going to clash with Bruce’s ideology in ways even Dick never did, especially when it came to killing. Even before Jason died, it was very well established that they did not see eye to eye there and likely never were going to. It IS part of Jason’s core characterization that he fundamentally disagrees on the subject of killing criminals, the worst of the worst. Whether you think he actually killed Felipe Garzonas before Bruce benched him, or whether you think he didn’t, or that it was an honest accident...this was a hard line they were always going to end up on opposite sides of, and that inevitably was destined to create at least SOME kind of divide in the family.

But thing is, arguing that its okay to kill a serial rapist they have evidence that should convict him, but who keeps getting away with it because of diplomatic immunity and legal loopholes that show how ineffective a corrupt justice system is.....is NOT the same thing as arguing even to kill a murderer in the name of avenging your son that he murdered.....and even THAT is still along way away from.....

tossing eight heads in a duffel bag down onto a table in the middle of a meeting of local crime bosses as an intimidation tactic.

Felipe? That was Jason’s own personal thoughts and morality, his own perspective on right and wrong at work there, 100% him. The Joker? That was a natural, easy to follow extrapolation of those same thoughts and perspective and how they might change and grow as a result of the trauma of what the Joker did to him and how it affected him.

But Jason’s tactics when he first came back to Gotham weren’t either of those things. They were textbook League of Assassins methodology and justification.

And its just fucking WEIRD to discount that when examining his character and how he changed from the Robin he was to the Red Hood he became.

Like, even with varying canon takes, the youngest Bruce took Jason in at has him at about twelve. He wasn’t a trained acrobat like Dick, he was a malnourished street kid with none of the head start on his training that Dick came to Bruce with, already having it under his belt. Everything Jason knew how to do as Robin, the detective work, swinging around Gotham on grappling hooks, various martial arts forms and mastery of weapons....Bruce had to train him in all that from scratch, and that took time. Jason was at the earliest still only like 13 or so when he became Robin. And pretty much every take I’ve ever seen on his death has him at around fifteen when the Joker killed him. That’s two, at most three years of time spent training and being Robin, under Bruce’s tutelage.

Then things split into two takes....some go with the sequence of events where Ra’s or Talia take Jason’s body right after his funeral and put him in the Lazarus Pit, others go with the sequence where he was resurrected on his own, and was found by Ra’s or Talia a year or two later, still largely catatonic, with them putting him in the Pit to heal his mind the rest of the way.

But either way, by the time Jason comes back to Gotham he’s put at around nineteen or twenty, with it usually said that it was five years after his death, and AT LEAST two or three of those years were spent training with the League of Assassins, or with other teachers thanks to Ra’s or Talia’s patronage.

So.....any way you cut it, if you’re going with a take where Jason’s skills post-Robin come from training with the League....he spent at LEAST as much time being trained by them, with their perspective, in their methods, according to their philosophies....as he spent being trained in all that by Bruce.

There is no angle here in which they didn’t play EVERY BIT as much of a role in shaping him as the man he resents for raising him as a child soldier! With it also largely unacknowledged that even WITHOUT the effects of Pit Madness from the Lazarus Pit, you’re talking about a KID, someone who was either fifteen or at most seventeen by the time the League started training him....who is recovering from a trauma the likes of which pretty much nobody can even comprehend. While nursing a massive grudge and resentments born of insecurities and issues that carried over from his fucked up childhood from even BEFORE he met Bruce, and that Bruce absolutely failed in addressing.

Again, no matter how you look at it, we’re talking about an extremely traumatized and impressionable and suggestible minor, desperate for anything to hold onto, any ideology to grasp hold of, any justification to make sense of all the shit that’s happened to him and where he goes from here, a purpose, a way to move FORWARD.

Like.....I’m all for Jason resenting Bruce raising him as a child soldier. What I DON’T get, is neither him nor anyone writing him in this way displaying the same awareness of the fact that....the League literally raised him to be a child soldier after he was brought back.

Same shit, different generals. That’s it. But again, that’s not an upgrade! That’s not better for Jason! That’s not an improvement over Bruce! It’s literally a lateral move!

And if your take includes ANY aspect of Talia training or overseeing Jason’s training to help him get back at her ex, someone she definitely has issues with at the time, no matter what canon or existing adaptation you’re going with.....you’re talking about someone literally weaponizing a traumatized teenager against her ex.

Ummm. Yeah. We’re just....not gonna call that better for Jason, or healthier for Jason, or in any way, shape or form to JASON’S benefit, okay? Cuz its not. No matter what his issues with Bruce, no matter what your issues with Bruce as a reader or writer, no matter where you fall on the ‘is killing bad people bad, y/n’ spectrum.....it is just deeply WRONG to just generically write Talia as forming a maternal bond with Jason WHILE he’s being trained by the League she holds enormous influence over, even if not as much as her father.....and act like this is the opposite of Bruce and how he failed Jason. Instead of just more of the same.

Like sorry not sorry Talia, but if you actually give a shit about Jason when he comes out of the Pit all traumatized and chock full of issues....you put him in fucking THERAPY, not How To Be An Assassin and REALLY Get Back At Your Dad 101.

And it doesn’t have to be that way, to be clear. You can write Talia taking off with Jason and toddler Damian in the middle of the night, abandoning the League of Assassins to take both of them far away and hide them so Jason can heal and cope and find himself and Damian can grow up not learning how to poison people by age five. You do that, all my objections vanish, THAT is infinitely superior to Bruce’s parenting, and that’s a parental bond with Jason I can happily stan as being for his benefit and to his betterment.

But no fic where he debuts as the Red Hood with years of League training under his belt has that. And this oversight is realllllly starting to get on my nerves, lol.

Again, from both sides of the Jason camp, pro and anti alike.

Cuz if you’re a Jason fan for any reason, no matter whether you’re in favor of him reconciling or bonding with any or all of the Batfamily or not, why WOULDN’T you want them acknowledging that who he is now and what he’s done as the Red Hood has every bit as much to do with the skills the League gave him and the philosophies the League taught him as it does with what he learned from Bruce? That he was conditioned in these things while in a highly vulnerable point in his life?

And if you’re not a Jason fan, no matter the reason, it is again, STILL a massive oversight not to acknowledge that his actions and agendas as the Red Hood stem from years of being trained as a teenage assassin while in a highly vulnerable and thus suggestible state and with a clear lack of other options or support systems to counter anything they taught him.

Like I said, I’m pro Red Hood, I love Jason, I agreed with him back when he was arguing with Bruce about Felipe Garzonas. Jason’s never targeted anyone but the worst of the worst and he’s always displayed an ability to see reason and back down, he’s not some mindless killing machine. I lean way more towards his philosophies than I do Bruce’s, even if I don’t always agree entirely, and part of my point here is like...this isn’t about judging Jason for his actions or like, ugh, I really like Jason but I think he’d be even better if he was less murder-y, you know, more like Dick.

But like...the rest of my point is that I just honestly don’t see Jason’s actions and professed ideologies as one hundred percent HIS natural perspective, not influenced to an unhealthy degree by others in a position to take advantage of him at more vulnerable times in his life and sway him more to their positions. And THAT’S my problem with how little people reflect on the role the League played in who he became, AND with the insertion of a maternal and nominally supportive bond with Talia that’s written as being superior and more to Jason’s benefit than anything he shared with Bruce.

LOL even when I don’t mean to, like I definitely didn’t when I started this post, I always seem to keep coming back to how alike Dick and Jason and their stories are and how well and how often they parallel each other, because its the exact same issue I have with Dick. They’re just a very easy way to point out certain things about the other.

Like, I’ve talked before about how I think Dick’s aversion to killing, not when others kill but when HE himself is presented with killing as an option - its really just him being terrified of disappointing Bruce and being abandoned by him if he does so, no matter that he’s an adult now. Because I DO agree and always have, that at the very least, Bruce was at times emotionally abusive with Dick and Jason at least, with a strong case to be made for Damian as well. (Tim’s harder to gauge given that most of his time under Bruce’s direct care was at a time when Bruce was overcompensating for all the things he missed with Jason and blamed himself for, and ever since Jason’s return, Tim’s written as being so independent and removed from Bruce’s influence that its more like Bruce rarely has the OPPORTUNITY to fuck things up with Tim to the degree he has with his other sons.)

Sorry. Digression. Point being, like, I do fully agree with the interpretation that Bruce’s rigid moral code and how forceful and insistent he was on imprinting it on Dick, Jason and Damian has at times been emotionally abusive, and I think the effect of that is most clearly demonstrated with Dick, due to the simple fact that Dick has spent more time under Bruce’s care and tutelage than all the others combined.

So my problem with Dick’s aversion to killing and how its so often hyped up in canon and in fanfics as him being so like Bruce in this regard, or just a Boy Scout, or ‘too good’ or ‘too pure’ to ever kill, at least not without it ‘breaking him’....that’s got nothing to do with me wanting Dick to suddenly go all trigger happy and kill his enemies with no problem. It’s just because.....I don’t think its Dick’s moral code at work there. I think its Bruce’s, and the way Dick’s written sticking to it without any self-analysis of where it came from and WHY he clings to it so rigidly, I view as evidence of conditioning due to how he was raised. With Dick so focused on other areas where he pushed back against Bruce he’s never really realized that how thoroughly Bruce influenced him in this regard flew completely under his radar.

It’s not that I want Dick to kill more, its that I want his choice to kill or not to be based on HIS choices, HIS morality, and not just a kneejerk response to conditioning he’s never recognized as such because who doesn’t have blinders on in regards to parts of our childhoods, you know?

And then circling back to Jason, I went on that tangent to emphasize its the exact same thing there, just in reverse. It’s not even that I DON’T want Jason to kill his enemies, to have the same philosophy or ideology or methods as Bruce or Dick or Tim. It’s that I want his choice to kill or not to be based on HIS morality, as the result of conclusions he came to after having the time and space and distance to separate himself from his various teachers and surroundings and decide for himself just what it is he believes, what choices and instincts are his naturally, organically, and which ones are leftover from his training by the League, drilled in by his instructors - just as he’s taught himself to recognize when his old training and lessons from Bruce are kicking in.

Anyway.

tl;dr - Bruce sucks and is a terrible parent but lolololol unless you’re going well off the beaten path from canon and faaaaaar away from where the League of Assassins can get their hooks in Jason to any degree, like...Talia is not better. Let Jason be Jason, not just a child soldier raised by your general of choice and aimed in the general direction of philosophies you agree with more than their opposite.

#abuse cw #rape cw

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