#the joker and the many ways to kill him

[lwh-writing]

I have been flirting around with a few DP x DC fic ideas (as an author does), and I have come across what I think is my equivalent of Chekhov's Gun. And that is:

The Joker's Crowbar

Essentially, if the Joker is mentioned/appears as a character in Act I, he must be killed off no later than the end of Act II. The "who," "where," "when," and "why" of the matter are subject to change, but the "how" remains forever constant: the Joker must get beaten to death with a crowbar.

Some other laws of The Joker's Crowbar include:

The Joker must remain dead. No revisions, no take-backs, no Lazarus Pit. "The Joker is beaten to death with a crowbar" remains a full and true sentence from the moment of the deed onward.

It should not be a super-powered beat down. The character wielding the crowbar can have powers, if you so desire, but they cannot use them to kill the Joker. Why they don't use their powers is a decision up to the author, but I believe it is thematically important that the Joker, a larger-than-life shadow that has terrorized so many for so long, is ultimately defeated by a "regular" person using good-ol'-fashioned fisticuffs and a crowbar.

While I think it's more impactful if the Joker is killed by a "civilian," if you want a member of the Batfam to be the one to kill the Joker, by all means be my guest. However, there are two (2) people the Joker can never be killed by: Bruce Wayne and Jason Todd. Bruce can never kill the Joker because his code against killing should remain intact. Jason can never kill the Joker because his second life should not be dedicated to the man who ultimately destroyed his first. Everyone else, though? Go nuts. Dick can kill the Joker, Tim can kill the Joker, Damian can kill the Joker, Cass can kill the Joker. Steph, Kate Kane, Harper Row, Duke, and/or Lucius Fox can all kill the Joker. Obscure members like David Zavimbe and Claire Clover can kill the Joker. If you want Jarro to kill the Joker, then by golly, Jarro the Starro in a Jar gets to kill the Joker. So long as it's not Bruce and Jason, then you're good. I by and large like to have the Joker killed by outside influences, but even I am not immune to letting specific Batfam members go feral. My first picks, though, will always and forever be Alfred and Barbara.

The Death of the Joker should not be the be-all-end-all of the plot. If the list is followed and the Joker is dead by the end of Act II, then we have all of Act III still left to get through. This rule, however, of all listed, is the most flexible. I do think it's funny though if Joker getting wrecked is like... a B-plot, at best.

And that is the writing rule of The Joker's Crowbar. It's not a writing rule you have to adhere to, but I think it's interesting that all of my WIPs seem to be following this pattern, and I was wondering if anyone else could relate.

[oifaaa]

What is your preferred explanation for Bruce’s no kill rule?

Personally a combo of Bruce was severely traumatised as a child watching his two parents be murdered in front of him to the point he literally can not watch someone die in front of him without it triggering him and he knows himself well enough to know that if he can justify killing one person then he can justify killing another and he's sure he will not have the self control to stop once he gets started

[bruciemilf]

I think an underappreciated motive for Bruce / Batman to not murder the Joker after he killed Jason is that it would, in a sense, mean Joker won. Like, yeah the Joker would be dead but he would also be laughing himself silly that he was the one who made the Bat break his code.

Bruce sparing the Joker was not because he didn't love Jason enough to kill him, but because he refused to let the Joker take anything else from him; he took his son, but he would not take his honor, his morality, his code. He would not give Joker the satisfaction.

Yeah! I think, ultimately, DC said it best, -- one death, two deaths, three deaths, -- whatever you pick, everybody loses. It was a no win situation from the start and specifically designed to have no satisfactory ending

[distort-opia]

the fact that joker needs batman more than he needs joker is a very interesting factor of batjokes, makes me bitter as fuck (pardon my language), but still, a very interesting part of their relationship.

never have i thought that batman and joker's relationship would hit so close to home for me. in one of your posts ive seen someone mention that joker loves but hates batman for that exact reason and man. why did they make joker so damn relatable.

Yeah, it's definitely a conflict on Joker's part, which tends to get a bit overlooked in fandom. Joker is obsessed with, and in love, with Batman -- but he doesn't always like it. He's been trying to kill the guy and telling him he hates him, almost as frequently as he's told him he loves him. But yeah, both me and @lankylordoflevity have discussed this somewhere in my asks before.

But you know, while Joker does undoubtedly need Bruce more... his love for Bruce is a lifeline in many ways. His obsession with Batman gave him a purpose, kept him alive after he fell into the acid vat; his love is everything he has that matters, but it's so all-encompassing because he's got absolutely nothing else. Joker doesn't have a family, or any kind of moral rules, or anything that important to him. While Joker is conflicted about his dependence on Batman's existence, at the end of the day, to him... this love gives much more than it takes away.

But Bruce stands to lose so much. His inability to let Joker go has caused so much harm already. He's made some very questionable choices over time, among which him nearly killing Jason at the end of UtRH to save Joker's life is probably the biggest. His relationship with Jason suffered as a result; all of his relationships suffer from it, one way or another. After being shot in the spine, Barbara had to hear that Batman was seen laughing together with the man who shot her. Over the years, she had to watch Bruce go out of his way to save Joker's life, even when she asked him not to, even when it wouldn't have contradicted Bruce's rules to let Joker die. His relationship with Joker was a big obstacle even in his relationship with Selina; that's kind of the plot of Batman/Catwoman. And this is something Snyder saw too -- how difficult this pattern of Bruce's is to overlook, and how hard the Batfamily avoids addressing it. Death of the Family is literally about the impact of Bruce's selfish and reckless actions regarding Joker on the Family, and the understandable rift that follows when they can't help but realize Joker wasn't wrong. Because the reality is, Bruce has saved Joker's life so many times and in such ridiculous conditions at this point that it's baffling. And what Joker keeps doing after is more murder, more destruction, and worst of all: he keeps being a danger to all the people Bruce loves. Yet Bruce can't find it in him to genuinely let him die.

I guess, what I mean is, Bruce is the one to suffer the biggest consequences for his side of things. Hundreds of deaths, untold destruction, the eternal possibility of Joker crossing another line and killing more of his Family. Joker may need Batman more because he's got nothing else... but how many more excuses can Bruce come up with, to himself and to others, for the fact he keeps risking so much to keep Joker alive? In the end, what's crazier? Needing someone so badly that loving them is barely a choice, or choosing someone again and again no matter the costs while claiming you don't love them?

Don't know if that helps with the bitterness, Anon. Kind of ended up going off with my own thoughts about this. But for me a fascinating part of Batjokes is Bruce's own side of things, that often gets dismissed as him not reciprocating, or him being less invested. Joker is loud and vocal about his love, and it's easy to take him on his word; when actually, Joker would be the first to balk at the idea of a relationship that involved anything other than violence. Bruce is vocal about his hatred for Joker and his wish that Joker would die, but his actions contradict that time and time again; when he's the one to reach out and the one to keep Joker alive, even when Joker himself is trying his damndest to die. As the villain, if someone else murders him, or if Bruce snaps and kills him, Joker... wins. It's what he wants. But Bruce loses when he keeps Joker alive, and he'd lose himself if he finally murdered Joker.

One way or the other, Bruce always loses.

[phoenixcatch7]

If there's one thing I like more than time travel it's crossover reincarnation, so.

Botk link reincarnated as Damian Wayne.

An incredible weapon master of all types, but especially prodigious with a sword - he was beating knights at the age of 4 and with his memories as intact as they get for him I can see that goalpost moving even further (probably with traps and tricks, a 3yo doesn't exactly have great bodily control).

He's an excellent survivalist, agile, strong, durable, cunning and creative. He can move like a feather in the breeze, strike from behind with ease. His first kill, an animal, did not stir him as it did the other children. With his poise, grace, skills, obedience, he ought to be ra'as' finest assassin in the making, a jewel in the crown of the league.

Except he never speaks a word. Half his targets escape unscathed. He skates by true punishment on the merit of his skills and achievements in other missions. Testing has shown it is not a physical deformity that prevents his speech, but not even talia has been able to coaxe a word from him past his second birthday.

It is a defect ra'as is growing more and more frustrated by, as each attempt to fix these two final flaws ends in resounding failure. Less extreme solutions are running dry.

Talia fears those solutions. Her child does too, she knows. For them, there is a possible solution, more extreme than anything ra'as would tolerate.

She sends him out of the league. To his father.

To Gotham.

[adhdslugcrimes]

Why Wally isn't allowed in Gotham

Wally: I get that I don't have siblings of my own but why do I have to take care of yours?

Dick: Bruce went away... Again, please just watch jaybird while me and Alfred try to find B.

Wally: fine, good luck on that. He bites me though and I'm chunking him into the sun.

Dick: Jason is too sweet for that, he'll destroy you with his insults.

Wally: ah something I'm immune too.

Dick: ... Well then thanks again Wally, see you soon. Bye Jay I'll be back with dad

Wally: take care bud.

Jason: bye Dick!

Dick leaves.

Wally: so what do you want to do?

Jason: got any books?

Wally: yeah, I do.

Jason: awesome!

A month later, Dick dragging Bruce back by the ear too

Dick, through the window: Wally I'm here for Jay -

Wally: no.

Dick: wha-

Wally: he's my little buddy and like he told me everything... I might not be welcomed in Arkham or Gotham.

Dick: you didn't...

Wally: I did.

Dick: Wally.

Wally: you gave me a child with parents issues, have you not met me? But be lucky I only broke his femur.

Dick: Wally!? His femur!?

Wally: yeah, he's femur. Well technically both of them so he's not walking anytime soon.

Dick: oh my god.

[mid-nightowl]

god i have some many thoughts about gotham war, my brain hurts

[godblooded]

i said it before and i’ll say it again: it’s fucking creepy to woobify a villain and it’s only gotten worse in the years i’ve been alive.

[masquenoire]

OOC// What are some things that make Roman feel sad?

Few things make Roman Sionis feel sad. Years ago, it might have been a different story; he was a very lonely child for the most part whose parents made it crystal clear to him how unwanted he was, how much harder he made their lives and berated him constantly for how he couldn’t even begin to live up to their lofty expectations. It wasn’t much better elsewhere; Roman had few friends even amongst the other children of Gotham’s upper class families, a little too ‘odd’ and cursed with no filter to be able to truly fit in. Fortunately there were a few positive influences during this time. A few employees hired to take care of the family household and chores treated Roman well enough, caring more about the child than his own parents did. It was the chauffeur who realized he’d gone missing during one particular party and ventured out into the forest to bring him back when he’d been bitten by a rabid raccoon, though had been threatened by Mr. and Mrs. Sionis to not speak about the incident or else lose her job. Receiving so little genuine consideration throughout his life has long since burnt out Roman’s ability to feel sadness, because if nobody ever felt sorry for him then why the fuck should he feel the same about anything (or anyone) else? He’s older now, capable of looking after himself and everything he’s got is entirely his own doing. He doesn’t need empathy, to give or receive and frankly, such feelings are only weaknesses to exploit in Gotham’s crime-ridden underbelly where everybody’s out to get you. On rare occasions, Roman will notice a child who is not happy, clearly not loved or cared for by their parent/s at all. It’s a stark reminder as to how he once was, a haunting memory of how he’d once been and had nobody in his corner. For the briefest of moments he’ll feel the sharp, painful sting of sadness, memories of times he’d thought he’d long since gotten over... until familiar rage overcomes him, wanting nothing more than to -lash out- at the closest thing. To Roman, anger is much more familiar and preferrable to grief.

[bastardlybonkers]

titans had one of my favorite characterizations of bruce. they also had my favorite 'what would happen if bruce Did kill the joker after jason died' ive ever seen

[hypewinter]

The people of Gotham could do nothing but watch in horror as the Joker killed Dr. Fenton on live TV. The doctor had moved to Gotham a little over a year ago and quickly made a name for himself by setting up clinics and shelters in the seedier parts of the city. Many had warned him of the dangers, of the criminals that would potentially target him but he didn't listen. He continued his work and soon wormed his way into the hearts of many. That's why he made a great target for the Crown Prince of Crime. Because his death would be absolutely devastating.

And it was, until someone pointed out that the good doctor seemed to be twitching behind the Joker as his gloated to the camera. That twitching soon because full on squirming and the citizens could only watch in shocked curiosity as Dr. Fenton eventually twisted out of his restraints. Then he bent down to pick up a metal pipe lying on the ground and crept towards the Joker. Understandably, many were terrified. Why wasn't the doctor using this chance to get away? People began screaming at the screens for him to escape but he just got closer. Finally he was right behind his captor and brought the pipe over his head. In one fell swoop he brought the pipe down with a satisfying crack that all could hear.

"I usually keep pretty strictly to my hippocratic oath," Dr. Fenton said. "But for you, I'm willing to make an exception."

He then proceeded to drag the Joker out of frame by the collar. The live feed ended soon after. Later, when the police arrived. Dr. Fenton was found causally sitting on some steps outside the warehouse. As they got closer, they realized the steps were actually the Joker, alive albeit barely.

[dclovesdanny]

Something I will never get enough of is Danny killing the Joker. However, something I want to see more of, is Danny killing the Joker for Ellie.

Like, Jason and Danny are neighbors and they’ve been friends for a little while. Jason knows Danny has the 20 something year old mechanic with a six-year-old daughter who is an absolute gremlin. He really likes them both, and he might have a little crush on his neighbor.

Then when they are out at the park or something, the Joker attacks. The joker decides to grab a hostage and who does he grab, but this six year old girl who only seems to have one person who knows her, a scrawny 20 something person. She has dark hair and blue eyes and only person who seems to care about her is her older brother/possible father? Perfect bait for Batman.

He wasn’t counting on Danny being able to fight god for his family. He didn’t realize that Danny will do anything to protect his family, that, in his literal core, he is sworn to protect his people, no matter the cost. the joker did not realize that Danny loves Ellie enough to not only die (again) for her, but to kill for her.

The Joker doesn’t die to Batman, or in some big battle. The Joker dies to a man no one knew because the Joker kidnapped his daughter. The joker dies, because he forgot that not everyone has the same hangups about killing that Batman does. The Joker dies because he pushed a parent too far.

Jason is there during all of this. I think he’s either there as red hood, watching through the cameras, or there is Jason. All three of these have many different pros for various forms of angst.

If Jason is there as red hood, he’s probably with some of the batfamily, and they are holding him back from killing the Joker. They’re trying to figure out how to make it so that the joker won’t kill this little girl, and Jason is going feral because that is his kid. That is the little gremlin who lives next-door, who knocks on his door and treats him like a jungle gym. That’s his kid. When he sees Danny jump at the Joker, he’s going to have a straight up panic attack and he’s gonna get the guns ready, but he doesn’t need to.

If he’s there as Jason, I think the joker would also take him hostage. Jason Wayne, the brat who would get him a lot of money. Especially if the Joker knows that this was the second Robin, because this just means he can get two killed in one swoop. And Jason is trying to protect Ellie with everything in him, cursing himself for not bringing a gun with him and praying that this time Bruce isn’t too late. And he can see the pain in Danny’s eyes and he is so scared to lose this family he has. He praised to a God he doesn’t believe in this time, history won’t repeat itself.

I feel like it would be most painful, if he’s watching through cameras. He’s probably injured or in the middle of doing something for his civilian life . Maybe he’s even out of town, but turned the camera on to look out for the joker, and had a heart attack when he saw the little girl next-door being held by the Joker. This man is trying so hard to get there, breaking every traffic law, praying that he won’t be too late that this won’t be the same as his death. His trauma is excruciating, because this feels like when he was waiting for Bruce and Bruce not getting there until it was too late.

No matter which of these scenarios, he needs to see Danny snap and kill the joker. Maybe, in the camera scenario, it’s just this he arrives that he sees it. Either way, he needs to see the moment, the Joker dies at the head of a single father, and the parallel of Bruce and him and Danny and Ellie need to be very apparent. Because this time the dad wasn’t afraid to kill.

This is the moment I feel, Jason would fully acknowledge that he would do anything for these people. That these two neighbors of his have become his family. The moment he sees the two of them holding each other, and the jokers body at their feet, I guarantee you this man is fighting tooth and nail not to go over his red hood exposed them. if he’s Jason, he can run into hug them no problem, but if he’s red hood, he’s not going to be able to do that.

This man will fight with Batman if he even that should get in trouble for killing the Joker. He will threaten to never ever speak to Bruce ever again, will be ready to bribe the police into letting Danny go, we will race every camera footage out there of the event, will do anything for this family.

Later that day, he won’t have nightmares of the Joker for the first time in a while. He will be able to look at his family and rest easy, knowing that there’s no way that Joker can take them from him.

[zylev-blog]

Danny has a new rogue. The man is going by the name of Freakshow, but most of the whispers he’s heard have labeled him as the Joker. The Joker pings as a liminal, so Danny has been trying to find him. Problem is, the Joker doesn’t stay in Amity Park. The man is mobile, and the more Danny leaves Amity Park, the more he’s hunted by the GIW. This makes it harder to hunt the man, but he knows that Joker is dangerous. Unstable.

And he really hates clowns.

He’s chasing the Joker through New Jersey when a red blur knocks into him and drags him away from the Joker. He has enough sense left to realize he’s being moved in superspeed before he’s head butting the man holding him and turning intangible out of his arms. He hears the man in red groan and hold his bleeding nose.

“Wait.” The man in red pants, “The Joker is dangerous.”

“I know he is.” Danny tells him, “That’s why I’m taking him down.”

“You’re not working with him?” A man in black asks.

“What? No!” He gestured to himself, “I don’t have this getup because of him, you know. I’m a dead kid. A ghost. He’s messing with the living while carrying traces of the dead, and that’s wrong, you know? Once you kill so many people, it offends the dead and we have to intervene. Once you pass that point, the dead takes your soul. He’s already on his way there.”

“You don’t look dead.” The man in black says while the man in red looks away from him.

“Yeah? And you look like a bat. You don’t have room to talk when you look like a furry.” He rolled his eyes.

“I’m Flash and this is Batman.” Flash introduced himself and his partner, “We and the Joker are from another dimension. We’re trying to take Joker down before he merges our dimensions and takes over both of them.”

“Ugh, not more interdimensional bullshit.” Danny swears. “You can call me Phantom, by the way.”

“You don’t seem suprised about this.” Batman prompts.

“Yknow, after the fifth attempt at interdimensional war you get used to it. This dimension has the most… uh, what did they call it? Oomph? I think it means like, this is the most powerful dimension out of all of them. It doesn’t take long for us to kick them back where they belong. But this Joker dude, he’s persistent.” Danny shrugged.

“I know Joker the best.” Batman told him.

“As long as Joker ends up back in his dimension before he merges ours.” He grimaced. “Been there done that once, it wasn’t pretty to undo. It nearly destroyed both of our dimensions, but some things aren’t supposed to be merged.”

“To work together, we need to know what you can do.” Flash glanced at Batman.

“Do you want a list?”

[deadsetobsessions]

Your name is Tim Drake and you are nine years old.

Today, tomorrow, and soon, you're going to save Robin.

----

Tim stares at his reflection on the sink tap. It trembles, along with the plane, as he contemplates his situation.

His face is rounder, now, with unfamiliar baby-fat rounding out the sharp lines he'd come to expect. Even with the subpar reflection, Tim can tell that his dark eyebags are all but gone, replaced with youthful skin.

Magic. He's being quite literal, seeing as he's been tossed into the body of his younger self at the hands of a crazed magician.

He could find a way back... or he could create a completely different timeline by fixing everything that went wrong. It's not like he has anything to go back to, anyways. That crazed magician was actually competent and killed everyone he ever cared about. Tim barely got away with his life. He could go back to save that shell of a world- surrounded by people whose minds were broken beyond magical and medical repair- or stay here, fix his own personal troubles and cut off the magician before he could start with his world domination bullshit.

Well, Tim already has an idea of what he wants. So he begins a list, after having oriented himself.

Save Robin

There's no point trying to convince Bruce that he knows where Jason's being held. So, Tim finds himself on a plane to Ethiopia a day before Jason's meant to die. This was long before Barbara even thought of being Oracle, and the tech is ancient in his hands. In short order, nine year old Tim has a trust fund with millions in it, all siphoned from billionaires like Lex Luthor and his own parents.

Tim toddles back to his seat, after washing his hands because he still can't shake the extra bit of paranoia that came with a missing spleen. Oh. Tim blinks guilelessly at his seat neighbor, smiling like Timothy Drake, Angel of a Son as he reels from the realization that he still has his spleen.

Tim adds another box to his list:

Keep Ra's away from my spleen, creepy bastard.

What else...? Ah, the League of Assassins.

Damian

Tim pauses. Holy crap. Damian's only six right now. Tim moves Damian's box upwards in urgency. Tim might have a mildly antagonistic relationship with his younger brother back then, but he wants baby pictures of his siblings, dammit. He's gonna put that photography expertise to good use if it's the last thing he does.

Watch over Z, Owens, Pru

'They're alive!' His mind screams. Cold rationality slaps the sentimentality down with a quick 'But they won't be if I fail.'

His mind wanders to Dick Grayson. He scowls as something pops up in the back of his head.

Catalina Flores

Contact Nightwing- in space

He's gotta call Dick back from that Teen Titans mission, Jason's gonna need all of the support he's going to get.

Find Cass

Train Steph

Save Duke's family from Venom

Tim taps at that last point. He'll save them. But that might mean Duke might never join their family.

But he'll be happy and Tim... will deal with it. He'll be the only one mourning, anyways. To end on a lighter note, he adds something that he should have done ages ago.

Give Tam a raise.

Tim sighs as he gets out of the airport, the hired escort he found and vetted, delivering him to a predetermined hotel. They think his parents are already inside. He laughs and does not say anything to make them think otherwise. He has so many things to do, Tim laments as he settles down to track the Joker's movements. Here. That's where Jason's being held. Being tortured.

He can, however, knock two things off his list in one go. Tim picks up the burner phone he acquired. He doesn't have time, or else he would have done this sooner and saved them all the trouble.

[RR: Are you in Ethiopia yet?]

[Deathstroke: Payment confirmed. In Ethiopia.]

[RR: Third building by the docks.]

An hour.

[Deathstroke: Confirmed. Target spotted.]

Ten minutes.

[Deathstroke: Target eliminated. Bringing Robin to Safehouse.]

Twenty minutes.

[Deathstroke: Basic first aid applied. Leaving.]

[RR: Secondary payment sent. Confirm?]

[Deathstroke: Confirmed. Pleasure doing business with you.]

Tim sprawls on the king bed. He sighs a breath of relief. He'd check on Jason in person, if he weren't paranoid about leaving traces that would get back to him. Tim's pretty sure that Deathstroke's going to get hunted down in the near future, regardless, so he made sure to add a huge tip on top of the extra fees for burning one of Deathstroke's safe houses and the emergency first aid. He taps into the rudimentary camera Deathstroke had given him the access codes to, to stare at Jason's rising and falling chest. On a further table, the Joker's head laid in a preservation box.

He bypasses all of the security on the Teen Titan's tech to send Dick a message.

[Robin has been retrieved from the Joker. Contact Batman for details.]

Then, he sends Bruce the location of the safe house. Tim spends the rest of the day staring at Jason and watching his father in another timeline break as he huddles close to the broken body of Tim's Robin.

Timothy Drake destroys the burner phone.

[dcxdpdabbles]

Cave boy Danny. What if he offhandedly mentions his parents being THERE (as in not dead) and being Doctors (not the same kind of doctors Bruce's parents are) and things like that and doesn't realize that the batfam starts thinking that this? This is what's different with this Bruce. He didn't lose his parents and thus does not grow up wanting vengeance, and his parents are similar in personalities but in a different field!

Now Danny is still as casual young Bruce as ever but the others are just freeking out around him.

Things are strange for a while. Danny knows that his actions have caused the Waynes to be....wary around him. Even Jason- who honestly threw a whole ass parade for Gotham in celebration of Joker's death- seemed to be tense around him.

Danny can't really say he blames them. He still doesn't know why Phantom reacted the way it did- a bit alarming. His ghost side marked Joker as a threat from the moment it laid eyes on him- a threat that could not and would not be reasoned with.

His ghost -half attacked, knowing that Joker's existence threatened his core. A core that was created from the desire to keep his friends safe at the moment of his death. (He had known he would die the moment the portal's electricity hit him- and Danny had not been mournful of his end but rather horrified that Tucker or Sam could have followed him to the afterlife. His last thought as a human was Please let me live long enough to keep them safe.)

Never has that happened before- not even when faced with Vlad or Dan. It was strange to watch Phantom attack and not be in equal amounts of control within his body.

Phantom has always felt a part of him but also not. Danny had once tried to explain it to Jaz, only to end up frustrated when she tried to paint Phantom as a different personality that shared the mind-space with Danny.

Danny knows Phantom isn't like that.

He's not another person- Phantom is Danny in the same sense that Danny is alive but dead. For the same reason, Danny is the flipped color scheme of Phantom. They are one, just viewed differently.

Or maybe they saw the world differently?

It's hard to say and even harder to put into words.

The closest Danny could come to explain was an example Tucker gave him. Someone is the same but acts ultimately differently online, even when they aren't trying to catfish someone.

It's the fact they are behind a screen that gives them just the extra amount of courage. Tuck had said.

Ancients, he misses Tuck. His ship is not ready to venture into his Ghost Zone- hell, if Danny is honest, it's barely able to move. He is trying his best to get it working, but it's slow going. Too slow, even with Wayne's generosity.

"Master Brucie," Alfred started, pausing just within the doorframe of Danny's room until invited in. He does that now, keeping to his manners as though Danny was a guest of the Waynes. Not someone who he can be so familiar with.

It stings to know his killing had lost him the right to be treated as a stranger when Alfred had always treated him as young Bruce Wayne the moment he was found.

"Yes?" He asks, trying to smile. It falls flat, but it's worth the effort.

Alfred's face stays impassive, and Danny tries to tell himself that he doesn't care. He's not a young Bruce Wayne. He wants nothing to do with the Wyanes'.

"There are more gifts for you." The bulter says. "Shall I bring them to your room?"

Danny has received a lot of fan mail since his actions were leaked to the public. Everyone knew that Joker was taken out by Danny Kane. And there wasn't a single person in Gotham who hadn't been hurt or known someone injured by the madman.

He is being praised as a hero.

For murder.

Danny can't find it in himself to feel guilty about it. Joker needed to die. He had too many chances to change, and too many people got hurt.

"That's okay. I'll go downstairs and look through them. I feel like watching a movie anyway." He shrugs his shoulders while strolling to the door in his lazy stride.

Alfred steps out of his way, bowing ever so slightly. "Very good sir."

Sir.

That stings.

Danny doesn't bring it up or mention that Alfred keeps a safe space between them. Not enough that it would be rude, but definitely one of a servant following a master instead of a man who thought him the younger version of his son.

When they arrive at the room, he is surprised to find a white shipping cart filled to the brim with packages and letters waiting for him. Standing beside the cart, flipping through the envelopes, is Tim.

He has yet to see much of Tim. Not since Danny proved his doubts weren't as unfound as Danny actively tried to convince the other teen of.

No time like the present.

"Hey, Tim." He calls just to mentally get the other prepared for his approach. As expected, Tim whips around with a narrow eye-ed glare that does nothing to hide his distaste for Danny. Alfred follows them into the room but stays by the door at an appropriate distance. "Anything good?"

"Good, how?" Tim bites, and Danny fights to not roll his eyes.

"I don't know. Maybe a letter from my mom saying I'm a good boy or another football from dad-"

"I beg your pardon?" Alfred cuts him off- which, okay, that's never happened before. The butler has never overstepped his position- even when they thought him harmless little Brucie- to talk over him.

Danny turns to find the man pasty white, looking both cautiously overjoyed and wishful. "Did you make a joke about your parents, Master Brucie?"

"Ugh, Yeah? Why?"

"Young sir, are- are your parents alive?"

Danny is floored by the choked-up emotion in that one sentence that all he can do is nod. Tim drops the package he was checking over, his jaw slacked, and staring at Danny like having parents was the answer of the universe.

"Thomas and Martha Wayne are alive in your universe.." Tim all but breaths. "They are alive and have more than one kid."

"Why is that a big deal?" Danny asks, unable to himself. "What happened to Bruce's parents here?"

"Master Thomas was a doctor," Alfred says, ignoring Danny's question. But he now hears the answer in the past tense when referring to Bruce's parents. "Is he still in your world?"

"Yes, and so is my mom." PHD doctors, but they don't need to know that.

"That's why you like this." Tim slumps into the chair closest to him. Danny is mightily alarmed that he seems pale now. "That's why you don't know anything about Batman. He was never inspired. You....you really are a civilian."

Danny will deny that he fleed the room when Tim burst into tears till the day he died. He does not look back even when Alfred yells for his return. He has outstayed his welcome.

He slips into his room, grabs anything not nailed down with any form of technology, and then activates his intangibility. He sinks down down, and down, to the caves. He knows where the Bats work, knows where to go from his nights where he tried to work on ship.

He flies in that direction, knowing he will never see the Waynes again. Not after realizing how much pain his lies have unwillingly caused.

Master Post Link

[megaderping]

I feel like when people compare Akechi to Light Yagami, they fundamentally misunderstand his character. Their similarities really end at their designs, and Light is the kind of person Akechi would despise. Light Yagami lives a pretty privileged life at the start of Death Note. He has a stable home, with two parents and a sister who care about him. He's a successful student. There isn't really inherent tragedy to his life. The whole reason he starts using the Death Note is a mix of curiosity and a jaded worldview, and when it works it empowers him, very quickly goes to his head, as he believes he is one who can be a god of a "new world" once the shock of his initial kills wears off. While his first kill was to help someone, that altruism didn't last. He is in charge of his choices, while Ryuk mostly vibes and maybe eggs him on a little. Fundamentally, Light has something Akechi lacks: agency, and a comfortable life he took for granted. Meanwhile, Akechi is someone who lived on the bottom rung of Japanese society. His very existence is shameful there, between his mother being a sex worker, his status as an illegitimate/"throw away" child, and his mother's suicide. Years languishing in a foster system that is notoriously inhumane, in a country where 90% of the adoptions are grown men for inheritance and patriarchal reasons, while very few children in the system find permanent homes. When Akechi awakens his power, he approaches Shido not because he wants to kill people but for a stupid revenge plan cooked up by a traumatized child who's been nudged along by a malevolent god. He wants to build Shido up so that at the height of his power, he can expose him for the monster he really is, while another part of him genuinely wants to be useful to Shido, as Cogkechi later calls out. His feelings are a mess of contradictions, and so it's no surprise that Shido was able to mold him into his assassin at only 15 years old. It's also worth noting that Akechi only approaches Shido with his ability to cause psychotic breakdowns. Shido is the one who teaches and instructs him to do shutdowns. He's still complicit, very sunk cost with his revenge plan, but as I spoke of here, even if he wanted to quit, he couldn't alone. Shido's cleaner and control of the law and ability to effortlessly turn him in would render the Metaverse his only safe haven. I think people look at 11/20 Akechi and Akechi in the early parts of the engine room and assume that's just his "true self," when in reality it's another mask. Royal makes it very clear because in Rank 7, he outright warns Joker of what's to come via a pool metaphor and offers an out (though he's MUCH happier if you don't take it/stick to your principles), and in Rank 8, he goes on that big "I hate you" speech... while Sunset Bridge is playing. Y'know, the song that plays at the end of most confidants to reaffirm bonds. So when he smiles as he shoots what he assumes to be Joker, that doesn't mean he's genuinely happy. More likely, he's an emotional clusterfuck, given he also is disoriented enough to namedrop "Shido-san" over the phone, and in the subsequent meeting with Shido, tells him not to kill the Phantom Thieves and that Morgana is "just a cat." Yes, he says they'll make them fear for the rest of their lives, but remember, he's talking to Shido. The things he says are likely all incredibly calculated to sound appealing to Shido. And when you consider that he planned to utterly destroy Shido's reputation after the election, the "delay" makes even more sense.

Later, Akechi goes on about how the people he induced shutdowns on were deserving of their fates, but I don't think he believes it so much as it's the only way he could convince himself that it was worth it, and given how much society failed him, and given how many of the people he targeted were likely rivals/competitors or rich fucks, I think he'd be less inclined to assume good faith. Kunikazu Okumura was not an innocent little victim, after all. He was one of the people who requested breakdowns and shutdowns the most. I think Akechi enjoyed killing him not because of how it'd hurt Haru, but because of catharsis. Because Okumura is just as monstrous as Shido, so why should he feel remorse? However, I don't believe he feels the same about Wakaba, as when he discusses her with Shido, he mentions how her fate was because she refused to willingly work for him. It's another justification, but I personally think Wakaba's death was the most painful for him because he was effectively making Futaba just like him. That's why I think his reaction to Sae threatening Sojiro's custody was genuine. Anyway, evil grinning Akechi is just another mask, as I said. Keep in mind, this is someone who laments not meeting Joker years ago, someone who Morgana outright points out is lying about his hatred. And that's the thing. Light Yagami, while a really fascinating character, is not someone who had all this childhood suffering or lack of agency. He does not regret his actions in the slightest and goes down due to his own hubris in both the anime and the manga. While you can argue that Ryuk set him up by dropping the Death Note, Light was the one who picked it up and chose to use it. Any nudging from Ryuk didn't coerce Light into doing it because Light seized the opportunity. No, if Light Yagami is like anyone in Persona 5, it's Masayoshi Shido, not Goro Akechi. Both believe they are god/god's chosen, that they are the ones who will reshape the world to their ideals, and to be frank, both use and abuse women to serve their own purposes. Goro Akechi goes down sacrificing himself for the Thieves and pleading with them to stop his father and again in Maruki's reality when he refuses to let Joker accept a gilded prison of a world for his sake when he knows better than anyone what it's like to have no true freedom. If you max his confidant, you see him in the postcredits, leaving his survival entirely possible, and I think it works because at the end of the day, Akechi was meant to be a victim and a foil. Light is a villain protagonist and a cautionary tale. Though its his POV we follow, he isn't someone we're meant to root for, but I definitely don't think enjoying the character is a bad thing at all. He's really interesting! I just think that a lot of the Akechi and Light comparisons are surface level at best.