#post rhato 25

[ky-landfill]

[ectonurites]

there is something so funny about people using comic panels they clearly don't know/don't remember the context around when trying to say something/make a point... like bruh...

[jp-todd-rp]

"maybe it's not okay right now. maybe it won't be for a while. whichever it is, i won't leave you." @arobinwithoutbatman

when it gets hard || accepting

Jason shook his head, but he was unable to get away from Tim's declaration. Not after what Bruce had done to him. Roy had dragged him out by the scruff, saving his life - and damn Bruce, damn him for not caring about his own bloody rules when it came to him - but it had been Tim who had caught him.

''He'll take -''

Fuck, talking hurt.

Jason winced, head turning away from Tim, who'd been by his bedside for days.

[hauntingblue]

I love how khoa just tells everybody "hey I can't kill because I made a promise to batman actually 😊" and then when he needs/wants to kill he's just "its okay he'll forgive me 😜" like he needs to let them know he is batmans favorite

[kindlingkeen]

a lil while ago you mentioned that you hadn't been reccing ongoing fics thus far and it made me wonder if there has been anything good u were reading lately? in return i offer u my fave incomplete works lately: 'the foreigner' by somecaveats; 'whether a beast or a human being' series by goldmonger; 'you happen to me, you happen to me (all over again)' by ivy_and_ivory; 'something to last' by lawsome; 'recitatif of danaide' by neptunary; and 'times are gone for honest men' by hedgebitch. thx ily!

Hi, anon! Thanks for the ask and the recs! I don’t think I’ve read any of these, so lots of good stuff for me to check out!

Here’s a list of fics from my subscriptions that have updated in the last month or so, all gen and Jason-centric.

Delusions of Negation by dragonpyre @dragonpyre, fresh out of the pit, Jason thinks he’s a clone of the dead Robin, so he goes to Gotham to prove it

summer by BoneRot19 @bonerot19, part 3 of the author’s something in the static series, a Jason joins the family late AU

March Relentlessly by elluv_asun, post rhato #25, Jason gets sent to an alternate universe, the one he was actually stolen from when he was resurrected

For Some Desperate Glory by chasingfigments @chasingfigments, instead of taking over the drug trade, Red Hood kidnaps Bruce Wayne

Thanks again for the ask, anon! I hope you find something here to enjoy! 💙

[fantastic-nonsense]

While you are digging into batfam lore, could you perhaps help explain what the batkids' legal names all are? Fanfiction has messed me all up. Did any of them actually legally take Wayne as their last name? I see it most often with Tim (i.e. Timothy Drake-Wayne) and Cass (i.e. Cassandra Wayne) but I haven't read any comics that I recall that actually called them that.

Sure! A quick rundown of who's actually part of the Wayne family:

Wayne family: Dick, Jason, Tim, and Cass were all legally adopted at one point or another in the post-Crisis universe (post-reboot is....complicated. Dick, Jason, and Tim are all once again adopted after a long series of retcons; Cass's status is still unknown). Damian is Bruce's biological son.

NOT Wayne family: Barbara Gordon, Stephanie Brown, Helena Bertinelli, any members of the Fox family (Luke, Tam, Tiffany, Jace, etc), Harper Row, etc.

Duke is a complicated case; he was Bruce's temporary foster son for a year before moving in with his cousin Jay, who now has custody of him. He's...sort of considered Wayne family, in that at least Jason and Tim consider him to be sort of their brother, but he wasn't adopted and no longer lives with Bruce.

Other: Kate and Bette Kane, who are Bruce's cousins and part of the Kane family.

As for legal last names and who actually calls themselves Waynes:

Damian's legal last name is Wayne. The al Ghuls tend to call him "Damian al Ghul" when he's with them, but legally his last name is Wayne; it's also the name Damian goes by UNLESS he's specifically attempting to leverage the al Ghul name amongst his family or the League of Assassins.

Dick continues to go by and think of himself as "Richard John Grayson" even after being adopted, though he explicitly calls himself Bruce's adopted son in several arcs after his adoption happens. You can take your pick of reasons why this might be (and there's quite a few to choose from, mostly connected to Dick's love for his bio parents and already being an established adult when Bruce adopted him), but Grayson was and remains his legal last name.

Jason canonically remained "Jason Peter Todd" after his adoption, per his death certificate:

Jason's death certificate, naming him as "Jason Peter Todd." -Batman Annual #25 (2006)

He was also "Jason Todd" to the general public; it's what people call him when they talk about him both before and after his death. The Red Hood and the Outlaws Rebirth comic (specifically RHATO #33) confirms that this is the case in the post-Flashpoint universe as well. However, there's a pretty reasonable canon foundation to assume that had Jason's adoption not happened in the 80s and had writers not wanted to complicate things, he probably would have chosen to hyphenate and become Jason Todd-Wayne, based largely on a) Jason's relationship with Willis Todd and b) Bruce and Jason's relationship before his death.

We simply don't know what Cass did. Cass was adopted off-panel in the vague period in between Batman RIP and Final Crisis, but Bruce's death threw everything up into the air; Cass was then promptly put on a bus and shipped out to Hong Kong for the duration of the Reborn era, and since she shows up in a grand total of 8 comics during that time we just don't get enough information to make a judgement call about her last name. Her two appearances in Tim's Red Robin book still call her Cassandra Cain, but it's unclear whether Fabian Nicieza, the writer, even knew her adoption had happened:

"Cassandra Cain, former Batgirl, remains one of the most dangerous fighters on the planet..." /// "Cassandra Cain, aka The Black Bat, Hong Kong operative for Batman, Inc." -Red Robin #17 & #25

Since Cass never had much of a public identity to speak of in the first place (and for a long time didn't even want one), it's super ambiguous what her legal status is and what last name she holds post-adoption. It's pretty reasonable to assume she becomes Cassandra Wayne, though, and it's also my personal preference. Though her relationship with David Cain is complicated, she doesn't hold much attachment to him as a father; likewise, there's really no reason for her not to take on the Wayne name given her attachment to Bruce.

Tim is the complicated one here, mostly because his adoption was such A Production™. Tim was formally adopted about a year in-universe after the events of Identity Crisis (when Tim’s dad was killed by Captain Boomerang). The adoption was pretty high-profile; Tim and Bruce even sat for an interview about it:

From 2007-2011, he's called Tim Drake and Tim Wayne (and occasionally Tim Drake-Wayne) pretty interchangably depending on the writer and situation. His legal name is probably Tim Drake-Wayne, though it's actually ambiguous. He tends to go by Tim Wayne in public while usually referring to himself as Tim Drake in private:

"And by the way, it's Wayne when I want a favor or a table at Bartese, and it's Drake when I look in the mirror." -Red Robin #15

"A question for Mr. Wayne--" /// "Reporting live from the reopening of the Newton Community Gym where Tim Wayne is about to address the crowd." -Red Robin #14 and 15

Post-Flashpoint, that adoption was erased and Bruce and Tim’s relationship was very strained; in the Rebirth era, his adoption was implied to be canon again in both Tynion’s Detective Comics run and King's Batman run, but we didn’t get confirmation until Infinite Frontier and Urban Legends, where Tim is once again explicitly adopted and occasionally called Tim Wayne, though he still mostly goes by and is referred to as Tim Drake:

"But just to be clear--we're not splitting the bill, Tim Wayne." -Urban Legends #4

"...and then Mr. Wayne just adopted you? Awful generous of him." -Urban Legends #4

Tim is also the only one regularly referred to in public as "Bruce's adopted son." Most of the time they're referred to as "Bruce Wayne's wards," so whether the adoptions are public knowledge or not is questionable, but their status as his wards and foster kids is not. Though they largely never lived in the Manor at the same time, they've all attended various public functions as Bruce's kids and acted on Bruce's behalf in various capacities while in the public eye.

tl;dr Tim is canonically the only one who takes the last name "Wayne" upon being adopted; he generally continues to refer to himself as Tim Drake, but canon calls him "Tim Drake," "Tim Drake-Wayne," and "Tim Wayne" pretty interchangably afterwards. Dick doesn't change his name and canonically Jason didn't either, though you could make a case that he might have hyphenated had his adoption been written in the modern era. We don't see Cass enough after her adoption to know either way; however, her existing canon relationships with Bruce and her biological family heavily support and/or imply that she probably became Cassandra Wayne.

[disniq]

i havent read all of the comics post urban legends to gotham war with jason, but as far as i remember between them jason didn't really kill anyone? tfz is on my mind (he tried to kill 'bane' but didn't). i suppose he couldve been murdering off screen as well but i also have no idea if that's hinted at

anyway with tmwsl and the beast war stuff having him kill it means:

urban legends -> stops killing

gotham war -> is brainfuckedup by bruce. cant do shit

tmwsl -> joker unbrainfuckedups him, he proceeds to go ham and kill some goons/tries to kill the jokers

beast world -> still killing in larger amounts

so if bruce had left his ass alone would he still be in a holding pattern with the bats? way to fuck it bruce (though im happy. so.)

obviously the doyalist explanation is they probably realized jason was in a bit of a limbo atm and decided to shake it up again. but watsonian is soooo funny to me. good job b

Thank you for bearing with me anon, I'm finally free from work and mostly compos mentis at the moment, so!

My initial instinct when I got this ask was to disagree, because I didn't read Jason's behaviour in the last issue of MWSL as any more or less violent than he was in the earlier issues, I don't think he ever actually killed anybody in that run (though do correct me if I'm wrong on that), and I'm extremely reluctant to take the Beast World characterisation into account because it's a, uh... reductive view of Jason, at best.

But.

BUT!

As I was turning this over in my head, I realised why it was pinging at my brain.

It's because this exact thing *has happened*, back in RHatOs Rebirth.

Pre-rhato 25 my beloathed, Jason had been consistently using less-lethal methods in exchange for Bruce's implicit approval and regular interaction with the batfam. He specifically says this on panel in The Trial of Batwoman, this is a choice he chooses to make against his own beliefs;

Detective Comics #975

This holds until six months later, when Jason shoots Penguin. And then Bruce famously snaps and beats the everloving shit out of him in a brutal and notably one-sided fight.

After which, Jason changes up his outfit, swaps the guns for a crowbar and a katana, and becomes significantly more lethal again.

RHatO (2016) #25, RHatO (2016) #26

And when I thought about it, well. I think you could argue that each of Jason's more lethal spells are proceeded by an altercation with Bruce.

Brothers in Blood, where Jason plays a murderous, knife-wielding Nightwing to annoy Dick, is the first Jason story after the infamous Under the Hood showdown wherein Bruce chooses to cut Jason's throat instead of... doing literally anything else instead.

Batman: Under the Red Hood, Nightwing (1996) #118

And after working relatively civilly with others throughout Countdown, Jason goes full murder gunbats in Battle for the Cowl after Bruce's delightful little "you're broken and you'll never be fixed" hologram speech.

Battle for the Cowl #3 , Battle for the Cowl #1

Now, I absolutely do not want to come across like I'm saying Bruce is responsible for all Jason's more extreme actions at all, because I'm not about that lack of agency shizzle at all. Obviously Jason was already very much down to kill prior to his final confrontation with Bruce in UtRH, and I think he does genuinely believe some people deserve to die.

But I think this pattern of Jason reacting to Bruce's outright and often violent rejections by escalating the very behaviour that has Bruce repeatedly rejecting him is super interesting as a facet of their continuous cycle of abuse.

So regardless of Beast World, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Jason does lilt more lethal for a hot minute before he inevitably makes consessions to get back into Batman's good books.

[theerurishipper]

I have been thinking about your no kill rule post and how Batman is criticized for it. I wonder if it is because he is deeply passionate about the no kill rule, but not under every writer.

In Batman: The Hill he says to Gordon over him feeling bad about killing a black 14 year old: "Don't be sorry. That boy was armed and dangerous. He died trying to commit murder."

Batman: The Hill only came out in 2000, only 5 years before Batman: Under the Hood which isn't a huge number of years when it comes to comics. In Batman: Under the Hood he screams in horror at the death of Captain Nazi and slices his son's throat to protect the Joker.

Jason is not a Bat at this time so it becomes why is the GCPD killing black teenagers okay but Red Hood killing white supervillains not okay. Captain Nazi was trying to kill them at the time. The Joker is a mass murderer. What makes the killing of these people less defensible to Batman?

The Doylist answer is arguably different writers but the Watsonian is him holding his kids to incredibly high standards compared to Gordon and the GCPD. He's not even upset with Gordon but he will beat Jason over this stuff (RHATO 25 (I think)). (and yes Batman was nearby when the kid was shot in Batman: The Hill)

My interpretation of Batman comes down to this: Batman won't kill. He will never condone killing. I've never read the comic you mentioned (and from what you've mentioned I don't think I ever will), but I cannot see Batman telling someone that it was fine that they killed, especially a child. It goes against everything he stands for. Batman is about rehabilitation and second chances and especially about helping the downtrodden. For him to comfort Gordon over killing a child, someone who probably is not a hardened criminal, is grossly against everything he stands for.

I don't think Batman has separate standards when it comes to his kids and Gordon. If he truly thought that it wasn't a big deal if the GCPD killed people, Batman wouldn't exist. One of the reasons he decided to become Batman was because the police force was corrupt. So, for him to excuse Gordon's actions is OOC. Maybe he takes it a little more personally when a kid of his does something like that, but his rule is very consistent across the board, and he will not comfort someone who killed by saying it's fine that they did it, especially if it was a child.

In my most generous interpretation, I don't think Batman would beat Gordon up about it, especially because Gordon is already regretful of what he did, and Batman believes in second chances. The thing with Jason is different because Jason wasn't regretful, he was actively trying to kill the Joker, and Bruce had to stop him. But for Bruce to say that the kid had it coming? That's wildly OOC. It goes against everything he stands for. This is the man who brought the Joker back to life because he was so strongly principled. There is no way he would stand there and say that shit about the death of a 14-year-old.

The Watsonian explanation for this is pretty much non-existent imho. Sometimes, the only explanation is the writers and that's it. I mean, Batman is no stranger to having writers who have wildly different interpretations of him side-by-side. Look at Frank Miller who, during the time when Batman was actually kind of lighthearted, decided to shit out the edgelord fantasy that was the Dark Knight Returns. I personally blame Frank Miller for everything that is wrong with Batman's characterization today. There is no way to reconcile that with the characterization of Batman that existed at the time, even if it wasn't exactly in the main continuity.

For characters like Batman who have existed for years and have had a variety of different writers, some of whom have shitty opinions about Batman and in general (Frank Miller), sometimes there are going to be stories that are so wildly OOC that you can't reconcile with the character. This seems like one of them.

Thank you for your ask!

[evilwickedme]

Top 10 worst Bruce dad moments?

So here's the thing. I'm not actually like. That well versed in the comics yet? Again like. Only been here for about six months. But I'll do my best anyway

10. Firing Dick

HE FIRED DICK FROM BEING ROBIN. THE NICKNAME HIS MOTHER GAVE HIM. THEN GAVE SAID NICKNAME TO ANOTHER CHILD. WHAT THE FUCK.

9. Steph as Robin

Honestly everything about this is a mess. I've only read a few pages from this arc but Tim quitting being Robin was a really difficult decision and Bruce's response was to give the job to Tim's sort-of-ex girlfriend and then treat her like crap. I believe it's canonically cause she reminded him too much of Jason, but that might just be the fandom's reading of the subtext; either way, if the shoe fits...

8. Telling Damian if he was there, Alfred wouldn't have died

What the FUCK, Bruce, that is your SON. COMFORT HIM FOR THE LOSS OF HIS GRANDFATHER

7. Robin!Tim in general

Listen intentional or not Tim is written as a character that has very much internalized needing to be useful being more important than anything else. His parents simply prioritize work over him point blank - his dad doesn't even remember his birthday, for God's sake - and Bruce simply like. Does not help with this. If anything he takes advantage of it. Tim needs to be loved unconditionally, like, STAT, like, that would fix 70% of his identity issues kinda STAT, and I'm not sure he's ever felt that with Bruce

6. Free space: any time he's hit one of his children that I don't know about

I once reblogged a post that detailed every time he hit Dick but that's long gone into the ether now, I can't find it. Anyway there's no excuse to hit your child. Don't fucking do it. They shouldn't hit you, either, doesn't make it ok for you to do if they've done it fyi. Batman can do non violent solutions, we know this, so fucking use those on your children.

5. Reviving the joker

I believe Dick isn't necessarily mad about not having murdered a man basically in cold blood, but I am. What the fuck, Bruce. You tried to kill him twice, you really wanna tell me you don't understand the urge and NEED to kill him??? And then you BRING HIM BACK TO LIFE??? Again. As I've said. What the FUCK

4. Killing Dick and sending him off to Spyral

Actually Dick shouldn't ever forgive Bruce for anything he's ever done to him ever. Have you seen the panels where they have this argument? His family GRIEVES him and for what!!!! For WHAT

(I understand Grayson itself is actually great I wouldn't know I haven't read it. Doesn't make what Bruce did okay tho. I'm also not sure I trust the positive reviews it's written by Tim Seeley and Tom King like......)

3. RHatO Rebirth #25

Penguin didn't fucking die. He didn't get shot in the face with a real bullet. You don't beat your son half to death to the point where he needs to be RESCUED from you - actually no need to qualify that sentence with the intended "over something that didn't actually happen", you simply don't beat your son half to death, should be a no brainer and YET

2. UTRH end scene

Heartbreaking. We all know at this point. Batarang to the throat. Chooses the Joker over Jason. It's enough to make a fully grown (25 next month) man (eh) cry (I mean. Yeah)

1. INTENTIONALLY TRIGGERING JASON

See here for the ask where I talked about this (and which is presumably the ask that led to this anon). Taking Jason to Ethiopia with no warning when he's cooperating anyway just to intentionally trigger him in order to try to get Damian back to life when you never did anything like that for Jason? Holy fucking shit, you know? Just betrayal after betrayal after betrayal

Anyway I'm sure this list is missing some major moments and I'd love to know what I forgot about or, more likely, simply don't know about! I love a well written good dad!Bruce fic but lbr that's just not what he's like in canon. Calling him a mixed bag as a father figure is an understatement

[dyslexicandakeyboard]

Today's controversial take is that Bruce's character isn't assassinated all that much by writers, fans just don't like him as a fully fledged character with flaws in his own right.

Like I know Gotham War just happened but the last time (in my memory) he ever was physically abusive with the kids was Forever Evil/That-One-Panel-Where-Bruce-punched-Dick-New52 and UTRH/RHATO 25. It's been a good 10ish years since he hit Dick and a good 18 to 9 years since any of Bruce's and Jason's fights.

And no, Bruce hitting Tim doesn't count, that was explained.

That is a good couple of years between each event.

Bruce is a flawed individual, he's a flawed parent. Bruce has hurt his kids, physically and emotionally. Doesn't mean his abusive. I'm not saying Bruce never hit his kids, what I'm saying that it was more complex than that.

All this crying about how editorial doesn't want Bruce to be a good dad but that fandom does is petty bullshit. If you pick up a random issue Bruce ain't beating his kids or emotionally abusing his kids. You just don't read and expect the Batfamily to have Hallmark family dynamics.

No one wants to read the actual arc but they'll read out of context panels which dumb down the conflict.

Bruce hitting Dick during Bruce Wayne: Murderer was not abuse, they were fighting. Bruce hitting Dick during the Court of Owls was abuse. Bruce hitting Dick during Nightwing 30 wasn't abuse. Bruce hitting Dick during New Titans 55 was abuse. Just two times.

Bruce fighting Jason during UTRH wasn't abuse, it was self-defence. Bruce fighting Jason during RHATO wasn't abuse, they were fighting.

Bruce is consistently portrayed as a good but flawed parent. Even after post-crisis, even after Death in the Family, you will find good moments of Bruce being fatherly.

Such as (mind my shitty quality phone pics)

Knightfall

Robin

Batgirl

Batman: Fugitive/Batman: Murderer

Grayson

War Games (Funny I know)

obi there many more examples but I haven't read all comics nor do I have them on hand (Scrolling though pages is veery exhausting. Hashtag firstworldproblems)

[lacrimosathedark]

I have made quite clear how much I adore Jason Peter Todd, despite how frequently he is written terribly. RHATO is Not Good, but pre-Flashpoint was...chaotic for his characterization to say the least.

HOWEVER!

I wish to give my fellow Jaybird lovers some stable ground if they’re looking for decent and consistent Red Hood characterization post-resurrection.

[Fuck you Battle For the Cowl that was a shitshow]

Most people cite the Under the Hood storyline as the best work about Jason. That story was written by Judd Winick. So, here’s a list of stories involving The Boy written by Judd Winick, with short summaries so you know what you’re getting into! And some images because I can’t not.

Batman Vol 1 629: This is not actually Jason, but a Scarecrow hallucination Bruce has, but it still characterizes both Bruce and Tim’s thoughts about Jason and his potential return. It takes place pretty smack-dab between Hush and Under the Hood.

I appreciate the Hush outfit with the white streak. Excellent.

(also Tim looks like a baby and I just want to give him hugs)

Batman Vol 1 635-641 aka Under the Hood Vol 1 Batman Vol 1 645-650 and Annual 25 aka Under the Hood Vol 2 No description necessary; if you know Jason, you know how this goes.

Green Arrow Vol 3 69-72: Red Hood comes to Star City and decides to have a talk with current Speedy, Green Arrow’s sidekick, Mia Dearden.

Contains this gem:

I love him so much he’s such a dramatic bitch.

He changed the scoreboards what the fuck--

And this oof

Outsiders Vol 3 44-46 and Annual 1: Jason provides the Outsiders, specifically Dick and Roy, with intel exonerating Black Lightning/Jefferson Pierce from murder he thought he committed. Jason’s not the center of this story, but I like it a lot.

For my fellow Harper family lovers, 45 has a lot of cute Roy and Lian too, including this part that rips my heart out.

Lian is my angel and I would die for her.

For my fellow Gays, these also have the start of the relationship between Anissa Pierce and Grace Choi

also includes this dumbfuckery:

He’s a dork and I love him.

Batman and Robin (2009) Vol 1 23-25: Red Hood reluctantly teams up with Dickie-Batman and Brat Wonder Robin to save his kidnapped former sidekick, Scarlet.

Please excuse some of the art bullshit; yes, it has ginger Jason, and yes the covers use the dumb pill helmet design. But for the record, he doesn’t actually wear the pill helmet thank fuck, and the hair thing was more for continuity. They were established during Grant Morrison’s run as writer because they don’t do their goddamn homework enough to know ginger Jay is not canon Post-Crisis! Or that even then he chose to dye his hair black! (Yes I’m bitter that’s how they fucked over Talia too UGH)

At least his costume is fixed; it combines the dumb supervillain-y costume with his old biker-y look, and tbh I think it’s really cool. Aside from the bright red guns that look like toys.

Not that that lasts because this is one of if not the last appearance of Jay before the reboot! Thanks, Barry.

[small edit cuz I just can’t with this man]

He’s also a little shit throughout the whole thing. It is his mission to annoy Dick and Damian and it’s great.

BOI--

[end small edit!]

He also gets stripped for...reasons. If you’re interested. I wasn’t, but I know some of yall are nasties (/affectionate) so here’s that.

Red Hood: The Lost Days: Goes more into detail about Jason’s experience between his death and his big return to Gotham. So! Much! Trauma!

Also where this image comes from:

He really said that. So uh...yeah.

He has always been a snarky dorky bastard and I love him very much.

[EDIT ADDITION Thank you @someoneimsure​]

Robin 80th Anniversary 100 Page Super Spectacular: Jason’s story is called “More Time”, which is a story with Robin Jason and Red Hood Jason have a parallel story giving Bruce a gift on his birthday. Specifically, fixing his father’s old watch.

I love him. LOOK AT THIS BABY

(He’s talking about the watch but that literally could be said about Jason and ow my fucking HEART--)

Look at this. God I just...sometimes Jason just fills my heart with love and it’s too much. He’s a good boy!

Unfortunately, he and Steph share the space of only having one story which is bullshit. Timmy and Dami both get two, which is totally fair. But Dickie gets four. Rude. Sharing is caring, Dickiebird.

[END EDIT Thank you :33]

FOR NOTE

Things with Jason NOT written by Judd Winick Pre-Flashpoint that are major (but personally I think kinda suck) are Battle for the Cowl, Countdown, and his weird murdery Nightwing phase.

Jason Todd, everybody.

[kittykatninja321]

The way fanon clings to the depiction of cartoonishly abusive Willis despite the fact that it was a shitty retcon in the first place and is also no longer really true because rebirth sorta re-retconned it. The idea that Jason has nothing but contempt for his father is something that was not true before new52 and is also not currently true. There’s elevendy million posts/fics/discussions about (rebirth) rhato 25 but somehow nobody seems to remember that part of the reason why Jason took out Cobblepot the way that he did was because he was spiraling over Willis and wanted revenge for his ‘death’. Like remember when new52 made Rose Wilson fully white for a little bit? Me neither we should all forget everything that happened in that era <3

[creetchure]

are u willing to elaborate on ur jason fans want him to be jp(v? i assume?) post because im Not familiar with jp(v?) but im very interested (all fair if not lol big fan of ur blog ive been following since i was also a dsmp blog and ive purged my dash like two or three times since then)

jesus christ you've been here a Long Time (thank you!!! dsmp was sure a phase :DDD)

take this with a grain of salt, i'm Incredibly biased as JPV is like. My dc character. he's the Ultimate blorbo of blorbos. also, i'll sometimes switch between calling jpv jp or azrael, since they're a system, and sometimes the distinction matters.

but essentially, what you see a lot in fanon jason is: 1) relationship with bruce where bruce kind of. purposefully hurts him (on one end of the spectrum) 2) uncontrolable anger 3) a desire for bruce's acceptance like *really* bad.

it's my personal reading of jason ofc, but like. most of that just straight up isn't in the text. pit rage isn't canon, admitedly ignoring a couple of instances (cough rhato#25 and batman #138) bruce generally doesn't *try* to hurt jason and kind of tries to get closer to him, and jason like. it's changed throughout iterations, but his crusade began with the purpose of proving bruce wrong lmao. of wanting to be better than batman and spite bruce.

so just taking those, you look at jpv and you have: the fact that bruce only ever tries to either control or use him, the fact that azrael is usually a rogue agent (though not. azrael isn't murderous for Most of the Azrael title lmao. ppl look at knightfall and are like "oooooooh jpv killed so many ppl" when azrael literally Did Not) and is more violent than Batman tolerates, and the fact that JP KEEPS coming back to bruce because he really, really wants Bruce to care for him and accept him.

don't get me wrong, jason and bruce's relationship in canon is all kinds of fucked, but the specific way ppl write it (usually fanon ppl) is soooooo jpv and bruce.

also, like, if you want an incident with Tim in a place where he felt safe, Robin #7 where azrael chokes him in the batcave is Right There instead of taking Teen Titans #29 and twisting what happened there.

there's a post somewhere around of a powerpoint saying "why you should replace jason with jp in every fanfiction" and it's 100% a joke but also the way that some ppl write jason they'd honestly be better off lmao

was this coherent? hopefully! i'd like to state that i'm a jason fan also, and that this isn't a blanket statement etc etc

[dcconfessions]

I think all of the fandom are stuck in different eras in a way that makes engaging with the fandom very difficult.

Like, Jason meta will sometimes engage in recent events like Flashpoint didn't happen and Jason hasn't been back in the Batfam far longer than he was villain.

Jason was Robin for about 5 years; a villain for 6 years and has been semi-back in the fold (for the most part) for like 12 years. He has been a villain for a bit over a quarter of his time in comics. That's not insignificant but in the majority of his history he has been a hero. He was Robin or almost as long as he was a villain with more than double the comic appearances as the hero Robin than he has as a villain (countdown barely counts, he was not a villain in most of that).

Yes, his villain era is definitive. But his Hero era and anti-Hero era both have more content than his villain era. Treating his villain era as something he is stuck in and can never from like no other character has ever had a villain era than him: Jericho, Raven, Dick Grayson being a Cop, ect.

I mean, if I was hero when the whole 'Batman made plans to kill the Justice League and they got leaked' happened I would never trust or being willing work with or around him again because the more about me he knows, the more in danger I would be. But being hated and not trusted forever is not the treatment he got and neither was it the treatment Jason got.

But people aren't consistently stuck in that era for Batman like they are Jason Todd. They actually let Batman move past his fuck-ups in a way they refuse to for Jason because they are stuck in his villain era. Jason is at this point no longer the main one at fault for poor relationship between him and Batman: Post-Damian death Ethiopia trip; RHATO #25 and #27; Event: Leviathan; Gotham War, ect. are all far more recent incidents of Bruce fucking up. We are no longer in the era of Jason taking a hatchet to their relationship. Bruce mostly has the hatchet now and Jason is the one seemingly trying to fix and forgive.

.

[yvtro]

Question related to another post

https://at.tumblr.com/yvtro/imo-the-more-interesting-timjason-dynamic-is/0qnzymvlqmbd

How long was Jason dead for and how long was he away for? Because in the comics he always seems to look 15-16 (to me) when he dies but comes back as like a mid 20s guy, which seems odd? Like when he comes back shouldn't it create a situation where he is now closer in age to Tim and even younger than Dick? I mean the guy wasn't aging physically or mentally while dead, he was dead.

i think your question shows very well how much dc fucked up.

tldr: dies at 15, is dead for half a year, catatonic for around a year, lazarus pit, goes back to gotham intending to kill bruce at 17/18 (and resigns), training, becomes red hood at 19 (and this is how old he is in utrh.)

edit: as @tumblingxelian noticed, there’s actually more evidence that jay would be 18 (or even still 17) in utrh, since it closely follows an arc wherein bruce tells cass that it would be his 18th birthday were he alive. i think the assumption that he would have to be 19 comes from the lost days and flashbacks in rhato wherein he spends much more time training before going back to gotham (unless someone has a source outright stating he was 19? let me know)

as it is with comics, there’s some space for questioning (writers have given him different years of birth and some comics mention different years of his death, for example: barr indicates he was born in 1974, and years later a death certificate from batman annual #25 says he died in 1986. but obviously he was not 12 when he died.) but the age of 15 for his death is clearly stated in the batman files.

(note that rebirth briefly retconned the timeline so that he became robin when he was… 16, so you might see some panels like that. but they quickly went back to the original version)

btw, the readers of batman back in 2004 must have been just as confused as you are (at least at first), because at this point there was no context provided as to why jason was a whole adult and how he came back. winick did not really care about jason’s legacy as robin nor his previous comics at all, and the annual (and lost days) in which it’s all explained read like an afterthought…

also both the writers and the artists routinely make him seem much older. lobdell, who was on rhato for like… a decade, said he had no idea how old jay was. personally i believe it’s because for most of them jason is a self-insert power fantasy of an edgier version of batman, and they’re obviously middle aged/old men.

this turned into a rant— but hope it clears things out:)

[kindlingkeen]

🛼 🥤 🍬 🪐 🍦 ?

For this ask game

🛼 ⇢ describe your latest wip with five emojis

🕵️‍♂️🔭🏠🚓🥷

🥤 ⇢ recommend an author or fanfic you love

The Owl Song series by Ghxst_Bird @ghost-bxrd is lovely. They’ve also been drawing an unbelievably gorgeous Selkie!Jason lately, and teasing a new fic that I’m super excited about.

🍬 ⇢ post an unpopular opinion about a popular fandom character

I don’t know if this is an unpopular opinion, but … I see a lot of references to Jason being passively suicidal based on comments he makes in the comics. I don’t think he’s suicidal. I think he struggles with the nature of his existence and the meaning of life, and I think he’s absolutely fucking terrified of dying again. Jay is a masterclass in deflecting from what matters to him most, whether it’s with snark or outright lies. And that includes lying to himself. If push comes to shove, he’ll fight tooth and nail to stay alive. The exception to that, though, is Bruce. If Bruce were to try and take him out again (à la Batarang, or rhato #25), I think Jason would let him.

🪐 ⇢ name three good things going on in your life right now

1) I did a kick ass thing at work the other night that I’ve been hoping to do for the last year, 2) I have finally figured out the right spice level in my bell pepper curry, 3) All of my vacation requests for the next year were granted.

🍦 ⇢ name three good things about a character you hate

Uhh … I’m gonna punt on this one. It takes a lot for me to hate a character, unless it’s someone like the Joker (and I’m never going to say nice things about him). I’ll reblog later if I come up with something.

Thanks for ask, anon! 💙