#dc discourse

[vikingpoteto]

Just saw someone saying Ollie kicking Roy out in snowbirds outweighs all of Bruce's fuck ups combined.... and I don't know how to say that Bruce put one of his children in a coma twice, prevented one of them from having a life outside vigilantism, got one of them killed, isolated one from the rest of the family by pretending he was dead and that's not even all the examples I can list from the top of my head. But sure, one storyline that is later addressed, and that Ollie apologizes for and IS FORGIVEN FOR is the problem. Outweighs everything.

[werewolf-cuddles]

Yeah, still a little bitter about Poison Ivy, but honestly, seeing even more evidence that she's supposed to be bisexual makes my anger and disappointment feel vindicated.

I will say though, the harassment I got for complaining about the erasure is very telling of how hostile queer fandom spaces are to bisexual people.

Because like I kept saying, if I was a lesbian complaining about a lesbian character having their sexuality changed by a new writer, it would have been a very different story.

[give-grian-rights]

i've gotten dropped into the DC franchise (primarily a handful of animated series) pretty hard, and i just fucking said to my self "god, i think nearly every portrayal of Barry Allen is great, he's literally such a great guy-" and then remembered that the character is currently being played in Cinema by a misogynist with kidnapping allegations

[webshood]

not gonna elaborate it rn, but people diminishing Jason's experience with homelessness, malnourishment, childhood abuse and neglect, because he got adopted by a billionaire while also hcning Tim Drake to be abused and starved by his wealthy parents is rooted in racism and classism

[who-always-pays-their-taxes]

Why do you (as in the royal you) as a member of a fandom,, seem to believe that things need to be,,, canon??? in fanfiction??? why would? that ever be? if you wanted to read pure canon, you could,,,, idk,,, read canon? pick up the source material,,, and if you wanted to read pure canon fanfiction just search the ‘canon compliant’ tag. that’s how ao3 works. so silly.

[muirann]

all comic fans know how to do is: develop superiority complexes based on their personal perceptions of a character, eat hot chip, and lie

[sassydefendorflower]

I want to talk about something. I want to talk about ableism in fandom. And sexism in fandom. Oh, and racism in fandom.

Mostly though, I wanna talk about how the discussion about these things often gets derailed because people don't understand what trends and typical behaviors actually are.

Whenever a Person of Color, a woman, someone disabled, someone queer (or an intersection of any of these groups) points out that certain fandom trends are bigoted in some shape or form, half the replies seem to be "but they are my comfort character! Maybe people just like them better because they are more interesting!" or even "people are allowed to have headcanons!" - the very daft even go for a "don't bring politics into fandom" which is a personal favorite because nothing exists in a vacuum and nothing is truly apolitical. But alas~

What most of these replies seemingly fail to understand is something very, very simple: it's not about you.

You, as an individual, are just one datapoint in a fandom. You are not the trend. You do not necessarily depict the typical behavior.

When someone points out that there is racism in fandom, that doesn't mean every fan is racist or perpetuating racist ideas*. By constantly mentioning your own lack of racism, quite often, you are actively derailing the conversation away from the problems at hand.

When someone names and describes a trend, they don't mean your headcanon specifically - they mean the accumulated number of headcanons perpetuating a harmful or outdated idea.

I am not saying this to forbid anyone from writing fics about their favorite characters or to keep anyone from having fun headcanons and sharing their theories and thoughts - quite the opposite actually. A critique of a general trend is not a critique of you as an individual - and you're going to have a much better, and more productive, time online if you can internalize that. If you stop growing defensive and instead allow yourself to actually digest the message of what was pointed out.

I am saying this to encourage some critical thinking.

Allow me to offer up some examples:

Case 1: A DC blogger made the daring statement that maybe Tim and Jason were such a popular fanfic focus because they are the only two undeniably white batboys. Immediately someone replied saying "no, it's all the fun traumatic situations we can put them in!". Which is an insane statement to make, considering the same can be said for literally ANY OTHER DC Batman and Batfam character.

The original post wasn't anything groundbreaking, they didn't accuse anyone, didn't name any names... but immediately there was a justification, immediately there was a reason why people might like these characters more. No one stopped to take a second and reflect on the current trends in fanfiction, no one considered that maybe this wasn't a declaration against people who like these characters but a thesis depicting the OVERALL trend of fandom once again focusing on undeniably white (and male) characters.

(don't get me started on the racebending of white characters in media that has a big Cast of Color and the implications of that)

Case 2: A meta posted on Ao3 about ableism in the Criminal Minds fandom caught my attention. A wonderful piece, very thoughtful, analyzing certain characterization choices within the fandom through the lens of an actually autistic person. The conclusion they reached: the writing of Spencer Reid as an autistic character, while often charming and comforting, tended to be incredibly infantilizing and at worst downright ableist. They came to that conclusion while CLEARLY stating that the individual fanfic wasn't the problem, but the general fandom trend in depicting this character.

Once again, looking at the replies seemed to be a mistake: while many comments furthered the discussion, there were quite a few which completely missed the point. Some were downright hostile. Because how dare this author imply that THEY are ableist when they write their favorite character using that specific characterization.

It didn't matter that the author allowed room for personal interpretation. It didn't matter that they noted something concerning about the entire fandom - people still thought they were attacking singular people.

Case 3: I wrote a fic about abortion in the FMA(b) fandom (actually I've written a weird amount of fics about abortion in a lot of fandoms, but alas) and I got hate comments for it. Because of that I addressed the bias in fandom against pro-choice depictions of pregnancies. I pointed out that the utter lack of abortion in many omegaverse stories or even mpreg or het romances, painted the picture of an unconscious bias that hurt people for whom abortion was the only option, the best possible ending. The response on the post itself was mostly positive, but I got anon hate.

(which I can unfortunately not show you since I deleted it in the months since)

And I'm not overly broken up about it, but it also underlines my point: by pointing at a general problem, a typical behavior, a larger trend... people feel personally attacked.

This inability to discuss sexism, ableism, racism, transphobia, etc in fandom without people turning defensive and hurt... well, it damages our ability to have these conversations at all.

Earlier I said YOU are not the problem - well, i think part of this discussion is acknowledging that: sometimes YOU are in fact part of the problem. And that's not the end of the world. But you can only recognize yourself as a cog in the machine, if you can examine your own actions, your own biases, your own preferences critically and without becoming defensive.

And, again, this is not to keep you from finding comfort in your favorite characters and headcanons. This is also not to say that I am free of biases and internalized bigotries - I am also very much a part of the system. A part of the problem.

This is so you can comfortably ask yourself "but why is there no abortion in this universe?" or "why are my favorite black characters always the top in my slash ships?" or "why do I write this disabled character as childish and in need of help?" - and sometimes the answer is "because I am disabled and I want comfort", and that's fine too.

There is no one shoe fits all in fiction. There is not a single trope that captures all members of a group. There is no single stereotype that isn't also someone's comfort. No group is a monolith, no experienced all-encompasing (or entirely unique).

There is never a simple answer.

But that doesn't mean you should stop questioning your own biases, your own ideals.

Especially, if you grow defensive if someone points out that a certain trend you engage in might be racist. Or sexist. Or queerphobic. Or fucking ableist.

*this does not mean negate the general anti-blackness perpetuated by most cultures as a result of colonialism and slavery

[skylathescholarly]

Okay... I never called myself a Super Serious Batfamily fan. I read what I want and pick things I like from canon and fanon like strawberries. So maybe I just don't have enough information or dedication.

But.

I really, really don't understand why liking one character necessitates hating another? I'm primarily a Tim Drake stan, but Jason Todd is my babygirl too. Damian is a sweetheart and doesn't deserve a bunch of the crap the Tim Drake fandom gives him. Dick isn't perfect either. Tim has made many mistakes. Steph has. Bruce has. Almost everyone has (I feel like Cass and Alfred might be exempt but I don't know lol) and I really hate that there's this attitude of "Batfam member vs Batfam member".

Like, welcome to having siblings. My brother could absolutely say the meanest thing he's ever said to me, and I'll give him crap but I'll sit next to him at dinner.

I don't know, and I know there are such things as AUs where a sibling is more intense than other universes, and vice versa, and I fully utilize my ability to move on from a fic if I don't like it, but I just hate the character bashing that seems to take some parts of the fandom by storm.

It makes me sad, ok? 😭😂

[shyjusticewarrior]

"We need more character development in comics." Y'all can't even handle Tim not hating his brothers who are trying their best to be good.

[rootbeerrex]

Jason and Bruce's first encounter in Batman #408 is blatantly mischaracterized so often that I have to do a double take every time I see anyone talking about it. I would like to say before I get into this that there's nothing wrong with disregarding canon, but you gotta know what you're disregarding or you just completely ignore the important character dynamics that are set up.

First of all, Bruce didn't see Jason stealing his tires and say "oh yeah, I'm adopting this kid." Yes, he did think it was funny and end up getting invested in Jason's life, but he had no intention to adopt or even interact with Jason again. He sends Jason to Ma Gunn's school, hoping that Jason can get an actual education and have a successful life.

People like to claim that Bruce was just lonely after Dick left and so he replaced him with the first kid he saw, and if you assume that Bruce just grabbed Jason off the streets after their first meeting, that seems pretty damning. but he DIDNT. he didn't initially want to make Jason Robin, he just wanted Jason to have a good life and get out of Crime Alley. (don't get me wrong, I still think it's fucked up that he made Jason Robin and failed to communicate with him about what that really meant and made him feel like he had to live up to Dick perfectly, but if we're gonna critiquing Bruce, we're gonna do it accurately.) He didn't even plan on interacting with Jason again in any meaningful way until he finds out that Jason isn't going to Ma Gunn's, and Jason explains that it's not a real school.

And after that he STILL doesn't make any decisions. It's not until after Jason tries to stop the heist at the museum completely separately from Batman that Bruce even takes in Jason himself.

And yeah, I really don't like the way he did this, but the narrative that Bruce just scooped Jason up off the streets because he wanted a new Robin is just straight up inaccurate. Yeah, I can totally admit that he probably felt at least a little lonely with Dick's absence and that affected his decision, but I think more importantly he saw himself in Jason and made his decision based on that.

The same way he recognized Dick's trauma with witnessing his parents' deaths, he recognized Jason's here. Do I think letting these kids fight crime is the best way to handle this trauma? of course not! but as explained earlier, he didn't originally intend to make Jason robin. And even more than that, these are comics, they don't have to be good choices that would be okay in the real world!

Okay anyway I forgot what my other points were and I just spent an hour writing this out and finding the panels, so uh here. Sorry I went on a little bit of a rant here.

[myfandomrealitea]

Omegle is dead. RIP to a generational gem.

For those of you who used it for fandom roleplay, EmeraldChat is a good, similar alternative. You can add interests in the same way, and there are additional options like sending images and saving chats.

[damianwaynesutilitybelt]

If I'm being honest I really hate all those posts and discourse that go somewhere along the lines of "Bruce's favourite or whose the closest to Bruce ect ect"

Just any kind of ranking with the bat kids relationship with Bruce.

They're all very complex relationships and they all bring different things to the table they all understand Bruce in different ways. And Bruce loves them in his own way. They're his kids that's the end of it.

[phanboyo]

Look, does Danny Phantom steal a lot of its concepts and tropes from DC and Marvel superhero comics? Yes. Is that a problem? Not when it means that Danny can pop up in a superhero crossover and just go "oh you too, huh?".

[webshood]

I'm a Jason Todd drug denier, if you write him doing drugs we're actually enemies. /lh

If you write kid him smoking cigarettes, that's okay because it's canon and nicotine is appetite suppressing, you can use it to make a good fic of him dealing with starvation and homelessness. However, the moment you make him (adult or kid) smoke weed, just know I'll be outside your door and you'll start coughing blood in three days

[incorrectbatfam]

Thoughts on Bruce x Harley? Approved or nah?

Why do you need my approval?