#jason todd and tim drake

[sageiii]

hc that every couple months jason texts tim like "hey r you going rogue yet?" "no" "alr lemme know if you change your mind" until one night tim gets this text while he's having an absolute shit week and goes yknow what? why not and suddenly the internet is filled with news that red hood teamed up with an unknown associate to cause chaos(stealing from corrupt billionaire type chaos, not mass murder of innocents type chaos) and said associate randomly shows up again every couple months

[91-1lover]

Dick and Damian- *Fighting using an incredible strategy and hours of training*

Meanwhile

Jason- YEEEET *Throwing Tim at bad guys*

[catgrandpa]

Gotham has always been weird, so when the groundskeeper at the cemetery noticed the Wayne kid’s plot was disturbed, he just chalked it up to more of the same ol’. Alright, so ‘disturbed’ may be a tad too light of a word, but what’s an empty grave in the grand scheme of Gotham? God knows in a city like this one, they could use all the burial room they could get. He figured he’d just jot it down on the website and hope nobody noticed for a while.

Too bad he didn’t account for the 13 year old boy in Bristol who periodically checks the cemetery’s website when he’s feeling particularly lonely.

Plot Removed.

Tim Drake stared at the two words under the heading for Jason Todd’s plot number. Removed? What do they mean ‘removed’? They can’t just remove a plot? That’s a person down there! That’s Robin down there! You can’t Remove Robin!

Calm down. Deep breaths. Assess the situation.

Robin has been dead for 5 months and 14 days. There is no reason for a grave to be removed that early, especially one of a member of such an affluential family. Chances are likely it’s a simple clerical issue. He can call first thing in the morning and make them aware of the mistake. He can have it all fixed in 5 hours.

Just a phone call.

In 5 hours.

…

Tim hates talking on the phone almost as much as he hates waiting.

Well it won’t be the first time he’s snuck out to head to Gotham proper at 1am. It can’t even really be considered sneaking out if there’s no one home to catch you.

Buses stop running at 2, so he layers a couple sweaters under his coat and grabs his best running sneakers so he can comfortably make the trek back.

Just a quick trip to settle his nerves. Maybe get a few shots in if he spots Batman, but really he just wants to see with his own two eyes that things are okay and Jason can rest.

It’s 1:37 by the time he gets to the headstone reading ‘Here Lies Jason Todd’ and the gaping, muddy pit in front of it.

This- This doesn’t make any sense. This is not removal. This is destruction. Desecration. Somebody did this. Somebody-

Assess the situation.

A hole in the ground, approximately 1.5 feet in diameter.

Mud and grass flung outward but with little force.

Large chunks of earth turned over and shoved away.

No signs of tool marks or clean lines of entry into the dirt.

Dragging claw marks.

Staggering, shuffled pairs of foot prints in the mud.

A trail of dirt.

Something… Something large clawed its way out of the ground here. Something large and bipedal and- and humanoid.

Tim refuses to jump to any conclusions he can see all the facts laid in front of him. He’s going to cautiously follow the trail and simply hope to any god listening that he isn’t the world’s first line of defense against the zombie apocalypse.

He’s been walking for 23 minutes and there’s good news and undecided news. Good news: he’s closing in on the target and the trail isn’t taking him out of the way so his trip home won’t be prolonged. Undecided news: The potential Zombie Robin is heading directly for Wayne Manor.

As zombie apocalypse news, this is very bad. From Tim’s collected observational evidence, his not-so-professional opinion is that Batman, faced with a horror movie level zombie of his dead son, would not respond well, and would likely not fight back.

In Batman and Robin news? Tim’s unsure. If Jason is simply back? What could that mean for them? Batman can have his Robin. He wouldn’t have to continue nearly killing others and himself every night in his grief. Jason could-

No. Stop. Do not jump to conclusions.

Hope only brings heartbreak.

What would Batman do? Get close and see if the target is a threat.

Target is male. Mid-teens. Dark hair. Pale skin. Leaning against surfaces as he walks. Appears injured and disoriented.

Minimal risk assessed. Approaching and attempting contact.

Target identity confirmed: Jason Todd.

“J-Jason?” It comes out as a croaked whisper. Jason shows no sign of acknowledgment.

Tim clears his throat, steps right in front of his path, and tries again.

“Jason. Jason, stop I want to help you.” Still nothing.

“Please, Jason. I can help, I promise I can help!”

Why isn’t this working?! Why can’t he just do something right for once?! He wants this to work, he wants to help Bruce, he wants to fix Batman, he wants to not be alone, he wants-

“Robin!”

Robin jerks to a stop.

Tim reached out his hand.

“Robin. Robin please, I’m sorry you’re going through this, it’s really scary, I’m really scared. But I just want to help you. Help you find Batman. Help you get home.”

Jason just stares at him. Of course he does. Of course it’s not going to work. Why did he even bother hoping he could help?

Hope only brings heartbreak.

His sight blurs as his eyes fill with tears and he starts to lower his outstretched hand.

His arm is slowed as a cold hand weakly grasps his own.

“Don’t… scared… Bat… help… Dad… help.”

A relieved sob tears out from Tim’s chest and he gathers himself together. He yanks his extra sweater off and gently pulls it over Jason’s cold shoulders. Jason lets Tim drag his arm over his shoulders to try and carry some of his weight.

“Okay, Robin. Yeah. Your dad will help us.”

Batman will solve everything once Tim gets Robin home.

[redsray]

one of the reasons i love Jason and Tim's relationship so much is because pre new-52, they despised each other and most of Jason's attempts (all 3) to kill Tim hide out in that continuity; but Jason also tries to vaguely recruit Tim a few times during that same continuity so it's sort of, like:

Jason: join my emo band Tim: no ???? tf?? Jason: Jason: well fuck you then [shoots him]

but after the new-52 (but before Rebirth), they're much closer and work together a lot more; you could even perhaps call them friends. there's a sort of mutual respect even after the murder attempts- the change is kind of odd, but I do love this version too. it's kinda:

Jason: ok you're a worthy successor i guess Tim: thank.... you...?? Tim: ... i picked the name "red robin" out of respect for you? Jason: huh. Jason: you're a weird ass kid. but you're smart so there's that.

obviously you can prefer one version of their relationship to the other, but i always love mixing them together. that kind of "yeah i can beat the shit out of you but you're also my homie and if anyone else tried to i'd beat them up" vibe, you know? i'd say peak siblings, actually.

[broken-coffee-mug23]

I think I’d be funny if Tim just gives Jason his English essays to proof read, like they don’t even talk to each other much but Jason keeps getting sent links to word documents or gets handed a stapled pile of pages at the end of patrol, maybe it’s just waiting on his counter when he gets home cause Tim broke in, however it happens there’s never anything said about it. he just proof read it, makes notes and corrections, and then give it back.

Tim always gets perfect grades.

[eggfriedricedwasian]

Im back on my jason spoils cass and tim bs so just imagine;

The two get de aged by a wizard and jason finds them and tells no one except for maybe the outlaws and just hogs them.

Like he wants NO ONE else to have these cute little pudgy babies.

Like they're basically twins and he's parenting them and everything. Teaching them how to say dada, how to walk, everything.

They even learn how to destroy the house and make him go gray and bark and meow thanks to Jason's pitbull he most definitely has and thanks to Roy and Lian probably.

He's got a shit ton of baby photos too.

He definitely cries when the spell wears off and if most definitely embarrassed when he finds out Tim and Cass remember just how good of a father he was to them.

That relationship between them still carries on and sometimes they still call him dad(even if he's only a few years older than them).

[maybe-in-another-universe]

yk what would be really sad? that if when jason first came back around the manor, and like actually interacting with the other wayne’s, for the first few weeks, when someone calls out jason’s name both jason and tim would respond. not because tim was trying to take the older boys place but because tim was just so used to everyone calling him by the dead boys name by accident so often it becomes second nature to him to respond to it.

could be angst bc jason feels tim is trying to replace him and tim feels he’s being put aside every time he realizes that jason is back and he’s not needed.

[thegothicchangeling]

Police: We have the place surrounded! What are your demands?

Tim: (from chair he's tied to) Tell them I want orange chicken.

Jason: (cocking gun) We want orange chicken!

[ghost-bxrd]

“Scared, pretender?”

[pinsandcats]

Nerds

I've seen a lot of posts about how Jason calls Tim a nerd and makes fun of him for it despite being an absolute nerd himself. However I would like to present my own take on this: Jason makes fun of Tim for being the wrong kind of nerd. He walks into the room sees Tim reading a book on how to build a fucking rocket and goes "ugh this book is boring. You have no taste". He reads Tim's case report for a cold case he solved that batman had been trying to solve for years and he says "This report conveys no emotion."

[sageiii]

Hc that when Jason got adopted and was introduced to the giant ass manor library, he was determined to read every book there(like any reasonable 12 year old would do upon finding out there was a whole ass library in their house) but he needed a way to remember what he thought of the books, and Alfred or Bruce or someone suggested some sort of social media or blog, so Jason made his new super secret social media book review blog

At first it was just another one of those random accounts, until it got more and more followers over time, and Jason expanded from book reviews to just random stuff, and eventually his acc was pretty well known. Only nearly a year into this endeavor(before the acc really got rolling), Jason got his first hater. This hater was Tim, who had discovered the acc while testing his online stalking skills and, still annoyed at the change in Robin, decided to be a little hater about it.

Time went on and the accounts following only grew with everyone knowing about Jason's very dedicated hater that was constantly arguing with him over random shit, either just on website or in dms. Then the acc stopped posting cause Jason, yknow, died.

Some years went by and Jason's acc turned into a little story of "hey you guys remember that one book review acc that made new reviews scarily fast then just dissapeared one day?" "Oh yeah, you remember their super dedicated hater? Such a funny time lolol."

Then the acc came back. And with the accs return came the little hater's return(with Tim now extra hate fueled) and the arguments continued but over time Tim became less and less cruel as his relationship with Jason got better and better(this is an au where they actually yknow, bond and stuff) and eventually, Tim admits to being the hater behind the acc and stops his shenanigans

When someone asks about where Jason's favorite hater went, he just replies "turns out it was my brother the whole fucking time." And Tim, having seen the reply some way or another, would never admit that he teared up a little at being called Jason's brother after so many years of hatred.

[sephikuna]

fic where jason comes back to gotham and discovers tim also got fucked the hell up by joker and that bruce still has not done anything to defend his kids so jason adopts tim and idk its just sillies and fun. also this an excuse for more people to talk about jason and jj bc i love jj and i love jason and tim brotherism…

also guys can we think about the angst potential with tim as jj and jason finding out about jj and how bruce still hadn’t killed him, that it was TIM who killed joker in the end?? like guys cmon i know you love making all of the batfam miserable

[lena-thinks-too-much]

Chapters: 1/1 Fandom: Robin (Comics), Batman - All Media Types, Batman (Comics), Teen Titans (Comics) Rating: Not Rated Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply Relationships: Tim Drake & Jason Todd Characters: Tim Drake (DCU), Jason Todd Additional Tags: POV Jason Todd, Jason Todd is Red Hood, Jason Todd is Confused, Jason Todd is Concerned, Tim Drake and Jason Todd are Siblings, Enemy to Caretaker, Jason Todd's Attack on Titans Tower, Canon Divergence - Jason Todd's Attack on Titans Tower, Dialogue Heavy, Crack, literally just crack, Tim Drake Needs to Sleep, Tim Drake has the survival skills of a wet paper bag, Those are probably correlated, Titan's Tomorrow (mentioned), Inspired by Tumblr, Author Is Sleep Deprived, No beta we die like Jason Todd's Sanity Series: Part 2 of Red Hood is Future Tim Summary:

"Can I borrow your gun?"

Jason blinked once. Then twice. "What?"

"Your gun? I need it."

"...Why?"

"To kill myself." He said it so casually Jason was sure he hallucinated it.

"Fucking- Excuse me?"

"I mean I was always planning to kill myself the next time that I saw you. But honestly? Right now, it's to save myself the embarrassment."

 OR

 A sleep deprived Tim mistakes the Red Hood to be his evil future self take two electric boogaloo

[badghostwriter]

The juxtaposition of Tim being seen as the ‘good’ Robin when he had the worst of Bruce and Jason being seen as the ‘bad’ Robin when he had the best of Bruce drives me nuts. It actually makes me insane. The mischaracterization in the fandom is part of it for sure but I cannot get over the misunderstandings that these brothers likely hold regarding each other.

Jason coming back and thinking Bruce dislikes him because he never treated him this coldly before vs Tim thinking that since Jason came back Bruce is finally accepting him because he never treated him this kindly before.

[cryptidbear]

Preview of a one-shot fic I'm writing where Jason learns just how not okay Tim is, and learns how to be a better brother and overcome their communication issues. Why? Self-indulgent reasons.

TW: Hinting towards Suicidal ideation but no outright mention of it. Mentions of death and funerals, the after life, emotional vulnerability.

Also, beware, this might be very ooc, still learning how to write these characters. And write in general!!!

Sneak peak!!!

🦇🦇🦇🦇

🦇🦇🦇🦇

“Would you come to my funeral?” 

The words, spoken so abruptly in the silence of their stakeout on a random rooftop near the docks, catches Jason completely and utterly off guard, damn near dropping his food in surprise.

He blinks slowly behind his domino mask, red helmet resting lazily in his lap as he eats a greasy batburger, a tradition for really any stakeout that always elicits a look of disapproval from Alfred.

He chews the food that suddenly tastes like ash on his tongue as he looks over at the teen sitting right beside him. His throat clenches with old guilt and new worries, his fingers digging into the burger and squishing it slightly.

He eyes Tim silently for another few moments, eyes dragging over the weary form of his younger brother. Surely, he had simply misheard him, right? Surely the brat wasn’t asking what he thinks he’s asking.

“Why?” He croaks out finally, his hands lowering towards his lap, a lone pickle falling unseen to the cold concrete of the rooftop, a sure treat for whatever bird found it come morning.

Tim shrugs lightly, not meeting Jason's gaze. He faces the docks instead, eyes hidden behind the white out lense of his domino mask sweeping over the area. “I don't know. Just… been thinking lately, I guess.” His voice is quiet in a way it often is, quiet in a way that has Jason’s skin itching beneath his armor. 

“ ‘bout yer funeral?” Jason feels at a loss about what to do in this situation, more than lost really, if he was being honest with himself. “Uh, why… why are ya thinkin’ ‘bout such a gruesome thin’?”

He was never any good at emotional stuff. Clearly, with his whole murder spree and hunting down the boy who took over the Robin mantle and slitting his throat.

Heck, he couldn't even deal with his own emotions half the time!!

He really, truly just wasn’t fit for this conversation, not in the slightest.

Plus… he and Tim… they weren't close. Not like that, at least. Not close enough to be talking about their own funerals and shit, or whatever was happening right now.

Sure, he loved Tim, much as anyone could love the chaotic bastard of a brother Tim was, but…

Jason always kept his distance. He always made sure to with the guilt that weighed him down from the Titan's Tower attack.

He was trying to be better, but it was hard some days. And he didn't want Tim caught in the crossfire of his real bad days when the anger wound tight around his chest and wouldn't let go.

Or really, any of his family. It’s one of the reasons he rarely comes around the manor or the cave.

Better to be distant and achingly lonely than risk another incident, especially when his relationship with Bruce was still so rocky.

Jason clears his throat when Tim doesn't answer, concern growing at the teen’s silence.

It really was never a good sign when he fell so silent like that. Always thinking far too much. .

“No, I wouldn't.” He answers honestly, and he sees the way his brother's shoulders slump, his heart, once still and buried six feet under, squeezes tightly at the sight. Sometimes it’s so telling of how Tim held himself in his mind, how little he thought of himself with the way he reacted to things sometimes, no matter how much he tried to hide it. He takes a small breath before continuing in what he hoped was a softer voice.

🦇🦇🦇🦇

End of sneak peak!! I'm actually very excited for this one since I haven't actually written Tim before, well not properly at least.

(Also, to note, Tim knows he's a good Robin, knows he's smart and skilled. But I have to imagine with some of the things that happen in canon... that kids gonna have issues. He's going to doubt his place sometimes. He's going to question things. I like to imagine this is set maybe a few months after the whole time stream situation. Also I don't know 100% of what happens in canon so 😓)

And don't worry, Jason doesn't just say no. He has a reason. He'll comfort Tim as best he can.

[redhoodinternaldialectical]

I don’t think Jason has ever hated Tim

I recently revived my Jason Todd hyperfixation from its torpor and realized I had... Means and Ways of reading as many comics as I want for free, so I made the transition from Fanon Only to having read Lost Days, Under the Red Hood, Teen Titans #29 (where Jason fights and beats the tar out of Tim), Hush, Red Hood and the Outlaws (the majority of both runs), Red Robin: The Grail, Batman and Robin: Streets Run Red, Green Arrow #70 - #73 (where Jason kidnaps Mia), Battle for the Cowl, and a smattering of other bits and bobs, all within the last month.

I have come to the conclusion that the idea that Jason hated Tim before slowly learning to be okay with him is completely backwards.

Jason starts respecting Tim as a fellow combatant after basically their first meeting, and was sympathizing with him even before. Fandom talks a lot about how Jason repeatedly tried to kill Tim, but I think there’s a good argument to be made that actually Jason has never tried to kill Tim, and there’s a better argument that Jason has never tried to hurt Tim out of a dislike for him.

Tim is the one who feels viciously betrayed by Jason, hates his guts, and depending on if you blend in the New 52 either learns to begrudgingly like him or just stays hatin.

Obviously I need some proof here, since this goes completely against the grain of every relationship interpretation I’ve ever seen for them, so approximately seven miles of character analysis under the cut lmao

I’m gonna try to go in chronological order of the characters’ history here, which means we’re starting with Lost Days, and Jason’s first reaction to finding out there’s a new Robin:

This does not look like anger to me.

Lost Days is only six issues long, and this is the entirety of the pages devoted to Jason’s feelings on Tim. Jason succeeds in a plan that would have almost certainly killed Batman if Jason had gone through with it. Jason undeniably has Joker dead to rights at one point, but lets him go. Jason at no point in this story attempts to harm Tim at all.

Now for Hush.

Context for fanon only folks: this is where the “throat slitting” bit happens.

Context for a lot of confusion: I don’t know if Jason is the one who holds Tim hostage or not.

In the original Hush plot line this is only Clayface; Jason isn’t here at all. It was later retconned in Under the Red Hood that Jason was actually in this fight for... some amount of time. It’s highly unclear to me when they swap out. Probably because originally, they didn’t swap out. Oh well! In either case, it’s now canon that Jason coached Clayface on his acting, so for the purposes of this essay, Imma hold Jason responsible for the throat damages and the words said regardless of who did what!

Right off the bat: this is a hostage taking, not a murder. Yes, Clayson Jayface does nick Tim’s neck and absolutely makes the threat of murdering him to Batman, but it’s clearly a threat. Like, look at this panel:

He is talking a lot. This isn’t an attempt to kill Tim, it’s an attempt to screw with Batman. No matter who this is, they have every reason to expect that Batman will stop them before they do any permanent damage. Can you see that little, blurry, half-hidden line of red? Lets look at what the damage was later on:

The bleeding was stopped by a bit of cloth, some pressure, and he’ll need stitches eventually, but they can clearly wait, and Tim doesn’t seem alarmed. That’s enough to scar, and enough that it is perfectly reasonable for Tim to assume that he would have died if he hadn’t been rescued.

However, Jason being deeply protective of kids is a reasonably consistent character trait. “You really think I’m gonna bring the pain to a ten year old?” Even at Jason’s most villainous, he is willing to put himself in danger in order to protect his own sidekick Scarlet. I think it would be very out of character for him to have gone through with it. Combined with Jason’s later actions and the general fact that a hostage is pretty useless dead, I come to the conclusion that Jason was bluffing.

It is ambiguous though, and I admit that this is probably the weakest link in the “Jason never tried to kill him” chain.

But enough of that, was he angry with him? Is the hate there?

I argue no, and that really there’s no emotional investment in Tim at all. In terms of hard numbers the pages Jalay Toddface spends holding Tim hostage is 3 and the number he spends fighting Batman is 13 and the number of times he even so much as LOOKS at Tim is ZERO, like actually, literally ZERO TIMES. He does not spare poor Timmy a SINGLE GLANCE.

Now make a special note here because those three pages of no eye contact from someone who might not even be Jason are the ONLY times that Tim is called Pretender or Imposter.

I’m relying on this research done by Kiragecko: https://kiragecko.tumblr.com/post/128411908944/bat-sibling-interaction It only goes up to Battle for the Cowl, (as does this essay it turns out, I just don’t know how to bridge between that and the New 52) so it isn’t every interaction ever, but it’s still excellent research, go leave a like.

According to them: “Comments: Tim thinks about Jason a lot while he’s first training. He imagines the former Robins giving him pep talks, and uses them to fight off fear gas. When Jason comes back, though, Tim’s really nasty, especially in his head. Jason, however, is somewhat respectful. He usually calls Tim ‘Tim’, and seems to kind of like him. ‘Pretender’ and ‘Imposter’ are things that CLAYFACE said, not Jason.“

How many times are those said? Once. Each. That’s it. As a comment under the Jason and Tim post done by Kiragecko points out, “Replacement” doesn’t even get used.

Under the Red Hood is basically THE Jason Todd comic. To my memory he doesn’t interact with Tim in it. However, it does contain that aforementioned reconning! So we get to see his reasoning during this encounter.

And it very very clearly isn’t at all about Tim.

Moving on to Titans Tower, which is indisputably focused on Tim: When he fights Tim, he is absolutely violent and over the line, but he’s NOT out of his head. Jason is clearly very lucid and careful about what he’s doing.

Is he angry? Of course! He’s angry at the Titans who in his mind cared about him way less than their other members, and accepted a replacement robin as though his life, his whole flesh and blood self, was something that could be so easily forgotten and swapped out.

But I think it would be a mistake to assume that Jason’s at all mad that he isn’t Robin anymore.

A very interesting direct parallel to this fight is when Jason kidnaps Mia, Green Arrow’s sidekick Speedy, fights her, appeals to their commonalities and encourages her to solve crime his way rather than Green Arrow’s way.

In both scenarios Jason engineers a way to isolate a sidekick and attempts to teach them something through combat. He makes a direct appeal to them against their mentors, and seems genuine about what he’s saying. He also lets both of them live, and with Mia is honestly pretty damned polite about it all. At least, as polite as a guy can be about kidnapping you and encouraging you to try to kill him in your high school gym that he definitely should not know about.

The plain fact of the matter is that Jason knocked Tim out, had time to paint his whole ass name way up high on a wall, and did not kill him. This is the same Jason who just prior to that took out all of Tim’s allies non-lethally. The same Jason who kept Mia’s protector’s busy non-lethally. The same Jason who cuts Mia free and gives her weapons back and starts slow in their fighting to make sure he doesn’t hurt her too badly. The same Jason who seems to feel very strongly that killing, trafficking, or selling drugs to kids is an unforgivable offense and very clearly sees Tim as a kid.

Quite frankly, this reads not like a murder, and not like a jealous beatdown, but an attempt to convince Tim that he’s going to get himself killed and needs to get out while he still can. In Jason’s mind before they meet, Tim is purely A Robin, a kid who deserves better than to be put into danger against the same monsters over and over again until he finally slips up and dies.

Is this a hairbrained and back asswards way of doing that? Yes! But it does track for someone who tries to do all of his talking through his actions, which do speak louder than words, but unfortunately C-4 loudness is not actually a significant boon to nuanced communication.

If you want to put it in a less charitable way (and maybe we should, this is a bonkers asshole move on Jason’s part no matter how you slice it) then we can say Jason is testing Tim, trying to see if this one has what it takes to be better than he was, to survive where he couldn’t. Personally I think it’s a mix of both, and for this end of that emotional mess: Tim passes the test.

Jason leaves while talking about Tim in present tense, showing that he has every expectation of Tim being alive, and praises him in the process:

Did you know that the fun panel of Tim kicking Jason in the nuts is actually from the same comic run, about twenty or so issues later?

Did you know that the argument they were having starts with Dick and Tim wrestling with Jason and accusing him of a murder he did not commit, and in fact tried to save the victim from?

Did I mention yet that the death in question was of Duela Dent, aka the JOKER’S DAUGHTER, whom Jason caught attempting to hold a young woman hostage for ransom? And that Jason repeatedly shot her getaway balloon instead of her and then tried to save her life immediately afterwards despite the fact that she was going to let the hostage plummet to their death? And it is implied that part of the reason he’s so easy on her is because of “Once a Titan always a Titan” loyalty, with this being our first clue that Jason isn’t the one shooting at her anymore?

Did I also mention that he comes to her funeral in part to be around Donna (the starry leotard lady whose statue he smashed) because it’s nice to be around people who understand being displaced by their own death? And that the one who sticks up for him in this scene is Donna?

At risk of negating my own thesus here, I’d say it’s reasonable to think that maybe Jason feels rage-hate for Tim in this “kicked in the dick while Dick grins smugly” moment.

Lets go now to Robin #177 at the tail end of the 1993 to 2003 run - Bruce has “died” and Tim hasn’t yet gone on his epic quest to find him. Tim finds Jason unifying street gangs with the intent to bring them under control and solve the current crisis. He appeals to Tim for help with this, in fact he comes off as almost puppy dog eager to work with him, and seems really sad when he says fuck no.

This is one of the first fights in which Tim really holds his own against Jason, and I am very proud of him, yes :3

This gets Jason arrested. Then Tim actually goes through with a heavily modified, less violent version of Jason’s plan that Jason didn’t think could work. A few issues later, when Tim decides that he’s going to try to honor what Bruce would have wanted by springing Jason out of jail, Jason makes note of that.

Jason is pretty damned civil at their next meeting, even though Tim makes it pretty damned clear he doesn’t want him around.

And now... we have to talk about Battle for the Cowl.

I’ve seen it described as a masterclass in how NOT to write Jason Todd, due to it portraying him as being an absolutely off his rocker anger murder violence man. I am inclined to agree.

In this three issue comic Jason Todd has been dRiVeN mAd (in the most bullshit comic sense of that word) by Bruce’s will... telling him to go to therapy. Yeah. So uh, he dons a Batman suit to shoot people in AND pretends to be Black Mask so he can enslave a bunch of villains Amanda Waller style, and like it gets weird from there. It is an extremely jarring transition from that last scene to GUNS BAT HATE MAN.

He still does not hate Tim in it. I really, seriously thought I was going to have to make a lot of excuses for this portion but then the more I read of it the more vindicated I was cause let me repeat: One of the most unhinged with Bat hate and crazy juice versions of Jason ever put to print does not hate Tim at all.

Hell, he likes Tim! He compliments him!

And on top of that, even though he is MUCH more lethal against his fellow robins when they attack him - Jason straight up shoots a ten year old Damian in the chest. It’s fucked. - There is still evidence to suggest that Jason deliberately didn’t kill Tim when he had ample opportunity.

Jason first of all never hunts Tim down. I’ve heard Battle for the Cowl described as Jason tracking Tim down or kidnapping him or going after him to force him to Be His Robin, but that’s just not how it goes.

Instead he waits for Tim to come find his Batcave, disorients him, and goes for a ton of surface cuts. He only actually goes for a real body blow after Tim picks up a crowbar and beats Jason across the face with it a few times.

(Again, proud of you Timmy)

After the stabbing, Jason doesn’t just leave Tim there; this isn’t a matter of hurrying on before he could check. He’s seen dragging Tim off. When Nightwing later comes to rescue him, Dick is downright certain Jason is lying to him about Tim being dead because Jason is refusing to show him the body and Dick figures it’s because he knows there’s no body to show (if in part because he can’t let himself believe Tim is dead without hard proof).

Tim himself wonders about this, noting that the batterang was rusted and shattered on his armor.

Sure, Tim used playing possum to make his pulse slow to a near stop for a while, maybe that fooled Jason, but keep in mind that BRUCE taught Tim that skill, and if there’s one thing these comics have established, it’s that Jason is dangerous precisely because he is so intimately familiar with the techniques of the Bat. Jason even makes specific note of the fact that Tim being trained like Bruce and fighting like Bruce would be his downfall at the beginning of their fight.

The whole comic leaves me wondering just how much of what happened went completely according to Jason’s plan. I really would not put it passed him to engineer a ‘death in the family’ recreation for the next Batman in line! As much as I agree that this is garbage characterization for him in many many ways, I do think Jason makes a fantastic villain. I love to see him run rings around the Bats in some places, and make lemonade out of getting his ass kicked in others.

No matter how we interpret the stabbing here though, what does seem very clear to me is that Jason makes the Be My Robin offer to Tim first and foremost because he thinks pretty highly of Tim! He’s been rejected by Tim at least three times over but keeps holding a hand out for him. This does not seem like Tim hater reaction hours here!

Also that whole thing about kids being dragged into this vigilante life irresponsibly? Yeah that’s still there!

I have TRIED to find evidence that Jason hates Tim at like literally any point here. I have gone through the shit people point to. I have looked at the context around those and dug up more obscure interactions for second and third views. Everywhere I look I just see more instances of Jason complimenting Tim!! It’s driving me nuts!

The only conclusion that I can come to is that people read this stuff and just trust that Tim is right about Jason. Tim’s internal view waaay more closely resembles fandom interpretation. Tim assumes that Clayson Toddface would absolutely have killed him in cold blood, that Jason beat the shit out of him purely to prove he was stronger, that he’s a brute, a moron, an active danger to society, and that every bit of leniency given to him will result in betrayal and death.

I don’t have clearer proof for it, but I also don’t think it’s a stretch to say that Tim probably believes Jason has it out for him and holds him responsible for his replacement.

So yeah. As a fascinating reversal of my expectations going in: I don’t think Jason has ever hated Tim, but boy fuckin howdy has Tim HATED Jason.