#anti brutalia

[sad-outsider]

I like ships with interesting dynamics, where both characters influence each other, teach each other something and simply complement each other (Darklina, Wonderbat). I may not like shipp for several reasons, such as it being incredibly toxic (Brutalia) or boring (Superwonder). Sometimes both (Batcat). But there are ships that I hate fiercely - those that lack the main thing that, in my humble opinion, is needed to build a relationship (any relationship, not just romantic) - acceptance. I believe that if a person cannot accept you for who you are, then you should do yourself a favor and tell that person to go to hell. It cannot be a choice of “should I be myself” or “should I be with someone”. You can’t build a relationship (any kind) on the foundation of denying your true self (yes, I’m talking about you, Mal, go to hell).

[spooky-donut-ghost-house]

Just saying Selina and Talia deserve better than Br*ce

[beautyconsumer]

why when having the batfam playing as a nuclear family they use batcat when Talia is right there?

and this is not, by any means, hate towards Selina's character. On the contrary, having Selina play a mom in a nuclear family feels against her character when Talia was literally made to be Batman's love interest, regardless of how she has been written in Morrison's run, (which was retconned)

[thebisexualbatman]

“talia al ghul never raped bruce”

[punkeropercyjackson]

Very embarrasing this needs to be said but if you're going to write characters of color,you're going to have to learn how to not be racist first or at least along the way.This is about many bases but the main one is headcanons for canon white characters while excluding/demonizing/etc the canon poc or even just nonblack poc and canonically black characters(Yeah,this be so called afrolatino Jason truthers who take Duke out of the Batboys,Robins and Batkids when he's all three and him and JASON are eachother's Robin LMAOOOOO Jason dosen't care about yt blue eyed boys or sex,he's too busy loving Duke as his favorite brother <3)

[ave-on-main]

Once again Tom Taylor writes Dick as the Nice Jokster by making him invalidate Dick's important connections. Dick has been involved in Bruce's love life. He feels with Bruce when Selina breaks up. He notices the romantic tension between them. So much so that he constantly gets used to validate BatCat in fandom and in canon! Dick was also there when Talia lived with Bruce. He was so up in Bruce's love life that he ran to Selina.

What is it about inter-character connections that Taylor hates so much? Why can there be no emotional beats? Why does Dick have to be flatter than a sheet of paper?

It's not "cool" to be involved in your mentor's love life and that's why Dick can't be, but he is. Dick cares so much. How much Dick cares about people is a huge if not the biggest part of his character and sometimes that care brings pain and conflict -- two words Taylor screeches at as if he's a vampire faced with a crucifix.

[whalehouse1]

Them: Bruce doesn’t care that Dick hates Talia. He’s still into her.

Me: Hate to break it to you but until recently in comic history, Bruce did not care that Dick hated any female he showed interest in because he thought it made Bruce act like a moron (and he was very much in the right to believe this).

[evelyn-2007]

MY DC OTPs

Dickkory- especially in the cartoons and in the 80s/90s comics, the perfect relationship who deserved to get married, if Clark and Lois and Barry and Iris can do it so can Dick and Kori.

Dickroy- mainly pre-NTT and the outsiders comics and everything with Lian in the comics.

Jaytemis- Such a cool Dynamic. It’s great to see Jason get the love he deserves from people who are uninvolved in his family, Dick in particular.

Timber- Tim needs someone who connects him to Tim Drake so he doesn’t lose himself to his mask like Bruce did. Also they’re adorable.

Cass2- I have no idea if they have ever interacted but I’m hooked on this ship. (Cass Cain and Cassie Sandsmark)

Not quite an OTP but out of Batman’s love interests the original Talia was my favorite.

Mar’li- Kingdom Come Mar’i and Lian are obviously obliviously in love.

MY DC OT3-4s

Dickkoryroy- Lian…

DickArtemisWallyZatanna-Young Justice

MY DC BROTPs

DickDonna

JasonBizzaro

TimCassie

Stephcass

MY DC NOTPs

Dickbabs

Jayroy

Joyfire

JasonXDonna

All Batcest

Not quite a Notp but Bruselina

[mangasstuffcomics]

Batcat shippers when Talia stands next to bruce for 5 seconds :

[redwiccanrobin]

Some Brutalia horniness to piss off the antis.

[mrdogface]

so like, there's a specific bubble of fanon usually devoted to rehabilitating the character of Talia al Ghul, that tends to reimagine Ras al Ghul as some kind of enlightened socialist leader who'd never think a bigoted thought or anything. i think it's because he's usually presented as a master manipulator who promises a lot of glossy shit like saving the environment or destroying capitalism, and that is based, but the underlying meme has always been that he wants to do it via mass genocide lol. like sister my sister, you, the audience, are falling for the character's ruse.

so, there's a Superman/Batman comic where, after Batman went back in time and shot his parents' killer in the braindome (lol), we see a world where Batman wasn't around to fuck Ras' daughter and foil his evil James Bondian schemes

and wow, he does a LOT of Hitler shit?

like a LOT of Hitler shit

he's not just toxic, girl, he's holocaustic

and while i fully support everybody's fanfiction, no matter how cracked or scuffed, because comics are a giant sandbox and i hate the attitude of there being a correct or incorrect way to play in that sandbox, i would like to propose an alternative narrative:

Talia al Ghul and Damian Wayne actually did grow up in this, believing it fully. that probably included a lot of Bad Notions about whether disabled people belong in the new world post-'cide, what the role of religion and therefore religious and ethno-religious communities might be, blah blah blah dark morbid shit.

and that they, through exposure to the world and their own personal intellect, ability to empathise with others, and the relationships that they built, both reject these horrifying, bigoted cult beliefs.

there is an obvious heroism in someone who is raised to believe horrible shit and who, through innate human compassion, learns to ultimately reject it. i would even go so far as to suggest this is probably core to the story of an angry little boy raised by a world domination assassination cult that wants to do mass genocide learning to be a hero, and that by smoothing off every rough edge to preserve this notion of a little boy who has never ever thought a slur or whatever, we lose that. but i think people do it because --

okay, this is my hottest of takes.

i think in fandom and the realm of post-twitter media literacy, there is a false equivalence of a character's morality with the beliefs of their fans.

you see it all the time with the brain trust insisting that people who like, i don't know, zack snyder's shitty boring superhero movies must be fascists or whatever. i see it a lot in the crazy arguments people make pro- and anti- brutalia and the nature of sexual violence in that canon relationship. it's all extremely dumb.

and it leads us to this weird place where takes like "damian wayne, a 10 year old raised in a genocidal cult where conversations about who does and doesn't get to be in the new world order happened, has never had a thought like 'well gay people are non-reproducers' or 'disabled people are useless'" take weird precedence over, "damian believes a lot of stupid, probably evil shit, but he's ten and he's learning," y'know what I mean?

[just-an-enby-lemon]

BatFamily and Their Batman Ship:

Alfred - BatCat. Even though he disaproves of Selina's criminal life he enjoys her company enough it doesn't really matters. He thinks Selina and Bruce are perfect for each other.

Jim Gordon - BatCat and BruHarvey before discovering that Batman and Bruce were the same people he kindda just belived Catwoman was Batman's soulmate and Harvey was Bruce's tragic soulmate. Is more inclined towards Bruharvey because he thinks Bruce is the only one who can get Harvey's back and he and Harvey really bonded working together and he saw Harvey as an younger brother before Two-Face.

Dick - BatCat or SuperBat. He loves both Clark and Selina and both were basically parents for him in a way or another. He is very disapointed in Bruce for never acting on either of his two very obvious crushes. He is even more disapointed after Khoa breaks Bruce's heart.

Dick is an anti-GhostBat and Khoa will have to do a lot of work to prove his worth to Bruce's eldest child. He also disaproves of BruHarvey.

Barbara - BruHarvey or BatCat, just like Dick she grew whatching Selina sending Bruce the heart eyes and also respecting Selina as the ultimate girlboss. But while Dick was seeing Superman sending his dad love eyes, Barbara was seeing her uncles Harvey and Bruce weirdly pinning. And while Dick and Harvey never got along at all, Harvey was very close to the Gordon family as a whole and used to babysit Babs a lot.

Jason - Brutalia and WonderBat. He accepts some of Bruce's other love interests, but he doesn't like them. Talia means to Jason the same that Selina means to Dick, she is basically his mother and he adores her.

While Jason would support Wonderbat as well is important to add that he thinks Diana could and should do better. He thinks the same of Talia, but he also knows how much she likes Bruce and believes Bruce does act better when with her. He is starting to think BruHarvey is also not that awfull of an idea.

Cassandra - She saw most of Bruce's romantic phases with people and she has no fix idea. She just wants Bruce to be happy. If she had to choose one option would probably be Talia, but in parts is because she has a tiny crush on Talia.

Tim - None. Tim doesn't think anyone is good enough for Bruce. Or better put he thinks Bruce is too emocionally fragille for a relationship. Anyone who dates Bruce will have to deal with an overprotective Tim.

He specially distrusts Selina. The closest to a Bat ship he has is BatLatern cause Tim was the Robin during the time Bruce and Hal were having the weird "chair" friendship and it kindda reminded Drake of him and Kon. Still he is very anti Batman dating and will make a PowerPoint presentation of "things I'm going to do with you if you ever hurt Bruce."

Stephanie - Thinks Bruce is too much of a loser to date. Does ship BatCat. She likes Selina and like all Robins saw her and Bruce weird flirt, she thinks they match. She also supports Brutalia, mostly because Damian convinced her. She just really doesn't care. Will write trash fic about Batman and his Rogues. When Riddler was living at her home she would specially make fun of his crush on Bruce. But is more her being a little gremlim than anything else.

Damian - Brutalia. Duh. He wants his parents to be an item and he wants it now. Will do a parent trap if necessary. Sees good points in other ships, he actually gets along well with Selina and with Clark, but I mean, he is on his mother's side.

Duke - Coudn't care less. There is only one superhero love life he cares and it's his own. He loves Bruce but that man's love life is just too messy for him to have an opinion on and my man knows his priorities. While not as protective as Tim, Duke is still very protectice of Bruce.

Bao - GhostBat. This child of divorce just wants to see his parents get back together and he will fight the other child of divorce (Damian) over it.

[I can't imagine neither Kate nor Helena even participating on such debate because both are really not intererested in Bruce's weird love life. I also have no idea what Harper, Cullen, Maps or Luke would think].

All members of the batfam hate BatJokes.

Disclaimer: there is very specific situations with different ships, for example I personally believe that Lego Dick does shipp BatJokes and Unburied Babs ships RiddleBat. But this are very specific versions of the characthers and not the general norm.

[thebisexualbatman]

batjoke shippers 🤝 brutalia shippers

shipping bruce wayne with someone who has literally abused him

[dyslexicandakeyboard]

Sorry - to correct. The place where Talia Al Ghul threatens to kill Huntress Helena Bertinelli out of jealousy that she might be Batman’s new “concubine” in the 90s Batman Legacy Event is in the issue Robin (1993) #33 and this was way way before Morrison and definitely way before 9/11. She was just not purely good person and was prone to these antics in her own ways (upset over Bruce not answering that they belonged together over Selina and threatening to rip their heart out if they got together at the end of Tec #526, for example) and I think it was really the Demon Trilogy (which O’ Neil who created her himself didn’t like and editorial wanted taken out because they didn’t approve and saw it as an out of wedlock romance), B:TAS nostalgia, and that era’s editorial (run by O’ Neil again) keeping Batman from his other significant romances that helped her a bit. Even when you go read the write ins for her classic stories she was never as popular as say, Selina (and you can tell from the Lazarus Affair Arc)

Yep, a lot of it is rose-colored glasses and nostalgia that has lead to this laughable brain-rot.

Many Talia Stans seem to think that Talia is Bruce's endgame (Which is not only stupid but a disservice to both their characters) and try to harken back to the good ol' days (Which weren't all that good) where Talia was this "heroic anti-heroine", which isn't really true, perfect for Bruce to prove their point. The Demon Trilogy, despite being non-canonical since it's conception, is taken as gospel in their circle and spurs them on. They also like to yap about how Talia is based off a Bond Girl, which in their eyes makes her Bruce's wife despite Bruce being a separate character from James Bond and that the character they say she's based off of dies.

Plus, most of their complaining that Morrison wrote a racist and sexist version of Talia usually fall short with this information (i.e all of the arcs she's been in where she's done bad and questionable things). This isn't to say that DC hasn't been racist or sexist (Batman Legends of the Dark Night first few issues, Holy Terror or any of their earlier works are examples) or that all Talia's depictions have always been free of any bigotry. But most of them use these accusations to stop any conversation that invalidates their version of Talia. Also, I've spoken about racism and sexism within fandoms (DC, Voltron, The Bear) in irl plus I'm literally mixed, so I'm not trying to invalidate anyone.

It's also weird how this attitude has flowed into the wider fandom and causes people to have this strange vision of Talia because if we look at this relationship without these blinders (nostalgia) still portraying Brutalia as a romantic relationship is just down right creepy and borderline abusive. Like in many of their interactions post O'Neil (And even under his editorial), Talia is honestly a down-right over-possessive, manipulative person with abusive tendencies and Bruce enables her. It's stifling because you can't treat it as anything other than romantic and healthy.

Plus, Talia's fans end up being more sexist as they take away Talia's agency when confronted with her bad actions and treat her like a child.

The panels mentioned.

Plus more panels of Talia being unlikable/abusive

[electricprincess96]

anti Talia rant incoming, specifically about the topic of Talia being a abuser. Very all over the place, ignore if you must.

To reiterate what you've said in your "Talia sexually abused Jason" posts, It's so completely a gender thing. They infantilize Talia to such a degree to minimise her actions (and blame her actions on another characters such as Ra's or Bruce) and act like Jason, a literal teenager (who I always though was younger than 17 when he was resurrected), has the agency of a fully grown adult. This is such a dirty tactic because they're basically erasing Jason's victim status and rewriting Talia to be either a victim or a saviour depending on their mood.

Even if ages weren't a problem (even through they are), Talia was his captor and had been isolating him while purposely lying about/omitting important details (Bruce did try to avenge Jason...promise) that would have lead to Jason making radically different decisions and seeing Talia in a different light. There is no way that anyone can. in good faith, say that Jason was fully capable to firstly consent to sleeping with Talia or secondly was on the same level of power that Talia had in their relationship. (and they wonder why they get called rape apologists)

Jason was a vulnerable child and Talia was an abuser who was in a position of power over him who decided to take advantage of him. End of story. Nothing more.

It reminds me of every single last post where Talia is posited as the victim/passive one of any situation (someone tried to act like Bruce slept with her when she was nineteen or something despite the comic they were referencing wasn't canonical since it was released *wink wink* and her being age being revealed to be 150 during the Lazarus Affair which is also non-canonical now due to the Crisis event) and that Bruce held all the power in their relationship ignoring that fact that she: lied to him on multiple occasions, withheld information, played both sides, ignored/overstepped boundaries etc. Or they act like the reason the relationship fell apart was due to Bruce's wrongdoings. Not that Talia would always side with a terrorist organisation that obviously disagreed with Bruce's morals.

Another thing that pisses me off in relation to Brutalia (I know Jason's your favorite guy, but Bruce's mine so a lot of Bruce from here on out) is just how they have no self awareness when posting "cute" moments about them. No the moment between them in No Man's Land wasn't cute, no that moment wasn't cute either. Like the whole marriage between them was creepy. I'm tried of downplaying it to avoid annoyed fans and I'm tried of them being oblivious to it.

She drugged him, kidnapped him, held him on a boat and married him without his consent (all while ignoring his rebukes when he came to). That is Grade A creep behavior. It wasn't cute, romantic or something people should be posted acting like it's a step closer to Brutalia being canon. Are my modern sensibilities strong, yes, (and I absolutely understand that "innocent" things can age badly) but that doesn't mean it wasn't creepy.

Then the whole Bane debacle *slaps face*. I hate it when someone is like "Well, Talia was abused by Bane, meaning that what happened to Bruce/Jason doesn't matter because she'd never do that in the first place cause she's the only victim". (Never mind she abused Bruce before Bane happened) That isn't a point. Anyone, past victim or past abuser, can be abused. There's no rule book dictating how can or cannot abuse.

Something else which is funny to me is that for no other character, except Poison Ivy and Harley, will stans do Simone Biles mental gymnastics for their character. Like I do remember people saying Doctor Light was character assassinated but no one every accused people that mentioned the fact that he was a serial rapist of ableism or hatred of abused characters or something stupid. I never see Slade stans come out of the woodworks to accuse Tara of seducing him or consenting to her abuse. I never see anyone try to educate fandom on the history of Deathstroke to try and act like it was such a horrible thing they made a mercenary who on multiple occasions tried to kill teenagers, forced Tara to be a double agent, abused his kids and Cass (I'm pretty sure) also be a child molester.

Like did people forget that Talia was a part of a eco terrorist organisation that had multiple plans to cull most of the Earth??? What's not clicking? Why is the idea of sexual abuse soo out there for her, it's not her worst crime by a long-shot. It's that fucking meme. Y'all can excuse genocide but you draw the line at rape???

*sigh* sorry for this long-ass brain vomit.

Please rant away, we've all got to at times.

And yeah, Jason may be my main fav in the BatFam but unlike a lot of Jason fans I love Bruce, I hate the bad writing that's circled both Jason and Bruce basically since UTRH (it set up something fantastic... and then Bruce "died" and we got Ginger Jason which... less said about that the better).

As for Jason's age if memory serves me correctly he was 15 when he was properly resurrected and dug out hus grave but closer to 17 when she throws him in the Lazarus Pit cause he spends a close to a year on Gotham Streets(how'd he survive, don't know, comic logic) and at least a year being cared for by Talia before Ra's tells her to stop playing nursemaid. But I could be wrong, regardless he was definitely under 18 and regardless as you point out the power dynamic makes the ages irrelevant anyway, there's no version of this story where he can reasonably consent because he can't reasonably say no. Coupled with the fact she does in fact fill Jason's mind with all this bullshit about how Bruce didn't seem to care enough to avenge him when Bruce thought the Joker was dead after the UN incident and was basically suicide for months after that until Tim came along (and even then, he was never really the same after Jason's death).

Talia is absolutely just as much an abuser of Bruce as she is Jason, I bring Jason up more because he's my fav and also it is a bit more generally known by fans than ALL the shit she did to Bruce throughout the years so it's easier to point to it when trying to articulate my overall issues with Talia.

Like Talia is an abuser of men, and that predates her supposed "character assassination" and has always been a thinly veiled part of her character. On top of all that she is a literal terrorist, and whether they like it or not the very environment that is fostered at the League would result in her always been at the very best a mediocre mother. Now, yes, Ra's is also an abuser, but being a victim of abuse does not allow someone to then become just as abusive. Ra's is not entirely responsible for Talia's actions. She's a grown woman, in many ways more capable than her father, she can say no. Likewise, the Bane shit, as you say, happened after a lot of her abusive behaviour towards Bruce, and still doesn't justify HER abusive actions. Talia can be both a victim and a victimiser.

And yeah, Deathstroke fans will admit they don't like the Tara stuff, they'll often choose to ignore it, but they won't blame the underage girl for it. I don't mind Slade myself, don't love him, don't hate him. His fans are a lot less obnoxious that some others I've met so they don't make me hate him the way some other fans do with their favs.

It really is simple if Talia was a man and Bruce/Jason were women no one would argue it was abuse. And the single worst thing for me is that fans will depict her as some deep love of Bruce's life when I'd argue a lot of his other love interests, not just Selina, are all much better written with more chemistry with Bruce and he doesn't have to be wildly OOC to justify the relationship. OR they'll depict her as a surrogate mother figure for Jason when she literally raped him. Like Jason absolutely needs a surrogate mother figure, one that doesn't take advantage of him, but like... he could go talk to Diana, or Dinah, or Selina, or almost every other female Bruce has ever spoken to because they are all significantly better options than Talia.

[paladin-of-nerd-fandom65]

Brutalia for the ship ask game?

Two star crossed lovers type and when Talia is portrayed right (I.e. she either secretly undermines her father’s goals despite serving him or even ideally outright turning against him and being an anti hero), it makes for great chemistry

Plus the fact Dick just doesn’t think Talia is a good match for Bruce not necessarily because of her affiliation but for more frankly comedic reasons is a cherry in top of that sundae