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incoherentbabblings · 3 years

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Hi!

I love your content, your love for TimSteph, and I was actually going to ask what you love so much about them. I, for extra credit for English, decided to write an analysis of Stephanie (and why I love her so much), but I just got into comics, and cannot really put my feelings for her in words ... which is odd, considering how much I love her and writing. Also, I was going to do a section on why TimSteph is narrative genius, and I needed help elaborating on that too.

Could you help me out, please? Thanks!

(I feel the need to mention that I have read quite a lot of comics with Stephanie in them, though not all. I'm not much of a comic book fan, but I'm really interested in the Batfamily!)

I'll be very happy to write out bullet points that you could talk about, and feel free to go through my ask and I'll babble/TimSteph meta tags for anything that you think may be worth discussing in your own words - there's like four or so years of stuff there to spark your brain.

HOWEVER!!!! Keep in mind though that much of what I have written is half based on textual evidence and half me just writing what I like/wish would crop up in canon.

For example, yes I like to draw comparisons between Tim being cold and Steph being warm, moon and sun and so on, but there's genuinely nothing in text to hint as this being an actual character trait or symbolism. If anything Tim's stated to be warm several times, more than Steph.

So, and I am sorry to be so blunt, but if I take your request in bad faith for a moment, don't use either directly or indirectly what I've written for your work. Especially without actually going and reading the arcs I talk about. A lot of the time it doesn't hold up under genuine textual scrutiny, and we want to be good academics here! There's Death of the Author and then there's me making crap up because I want to include it in a fanfic. Not the same thing! My blog is called IncoherentBabblings for a reason after all!

I will therefore say this: If you want to write about Steph as a character, I would use the below video as a point of reference. Using the below, you can then go into why she resonates with you the way she does, or why her relationship with Tim is so interesting to you.

youtube

If I were you: focus on her dynamic character development: cynical to idealistic. And use three points in her publication history to do this: her introduction in Detective Comics, War Games, and Batgirl. I am sorry to recommend War Games as something to read but it is important to her character. Use the Stephanie Brown Wiki to help!

That lends itself to a biography of her character, a look at her motivations and values, her role within the batfam, and so on. You can also use this to make comparisons with her peers, specifically Tim moving in the exact opposite direction development wise; Babs and Cass in their approaches to Batgirl; and the other Robins through her similar character progression as Dick, which in turn allows her to be a good mentor to Damian, and finally how her character arc runs perpendicular to Jason's. Does that make sense?

Anyway, let's get going! If I were to write an academic piece on Stephanie, these are the main points I would work through. In other words, this is what I would do. You probably will not need nor want to go into this level of depth, and you will want to make it much more personal about why she resonates with you, which may be different to why I love her. So don't worry about touching base with all of them. This is like... 10,000 word essay level stuff. And don't get overwhelmed. I've taken your request far too seriously is all.

Again, I can't write it for you! You gotta do the reading and writing I'm afraid.

...But I still wrote 1,500 words anyway. Gosh darnnit.

Steph’s Character Development

Always keep three points in her character history in mind – her aged 14/15 in her introductory arc in Detective Comics, her aged 16 in War Games, and her aged 18/19 in her Batgirl run.

How does she change? How does she grow as a character? What events caused these changes? Compare that angry 14-year-old trying to choke her father, to the 19-year-old crying happily on the roof. A lot happened between those two points! Outline the main plot beats.

Steph's Role as a Batfam Character:

Protagonist or Antagonist: Supporting Protagonist

Static or Dynamic: Dynamic (think of her character development - angry to alturistic; she softens in her life outlook and in the way she treats others as the years go by)

Minor or Major: Minor and we all mourn that fact :(

Foil or Symbolic: A foil to Tim Drake (and to a lesser extent the other Robins, specifically Jason Todd)

Importance of the character/Position in Society: Fourth Robin, third Batgirl, own superhero. Tim's girlfriend, Cassandra's best friend, one of many of Bruce's 'children'. Initially introduced just as a one-off character for a small arc in Detective Comics, brought back with the intention of being a supporting character to Tim Drake, and eventual love interest. Eventually gained enough popularity on her own terms to support her own solo comic, but has since returned to a supporting role. The character she supports, at the end of the day, is Bruce Wayne.

Motivation

What influences their decisions?: Stephanie's dynamic characterisation comes in here. Compare her motivations during her introductory arc, versus why she does what she does in War Games, versus why she dresses up at Batgirl - Stopping her father, getting Batman's approval, need for redemption.

What do they value?: Values emotional openness, vulnerability, second/third/fourth chances.

Goals/Hopes/Dreams: No long term goals/hopes/dreams in the domestic sense... Continue to be vigilante. Be respected by her peers. Continue to improve self worth through deeds. Graduate college?

What are their views: Views the justice system and police as corrupt, but still trusts in the inherent goodness of people. Focus is usually on the individual, rather than societal or structural.

Actions

Behaviour, Attitudes, Impact on Story and other Characters, Internal Struggle (Wants versus Needs): This is why I think you are best to look at three points in her story - Intro Arc, War Games, Batgirl. Focus on her Wants versus Needs - Steph's take a very long time to align, but they finally do in Batgirl.

Character development is usually driven by the conflict between what a character wants. The plot forces them normally to confront the fact that what they want is not gonna work out, and what they needed instead takes priority.

Everything usually goes tits up for Steph when she is in the driver's seat of the narrative because what she wants from a situation is rarely what she actually needs to happen. See every time she seeks Bruce's approval. She wants it. She absolutely does not need it. And only as Batgirl do we get that acknowledgement, which coincides with her being at the healthiest point in her life emotionally. Look at what she wants as Spoiler during her introductory arc, as Robin/Spoiler during War Games, and then as Batgirl. Why is she so unhappy in the former two? Why have her wants finally aligned with her needs with her time as Batgirl?

Character Traits

Personality: Cynical but perky. Sardonic but sincere. Think about how she changes over the time. This can be attributed to her different writers, but - for example - is there a universe reason for why Batgirl Stephanie is so much more socially awkward than Spoiler Stephanie?

Strengths & Weaknesses: Link these two together because Steph is a very good example where her strengths as a character can simultaneously be a weakness. Her determination can lead to her making ill conceived decisions. Her empathy can lead to her putting her trust in the wrong people. Her forgiving nature can lead to her being taken advantage of. Her temper, whilst landing her in hot water, can also just as often get her out of it.

Relationships

How do they interact with others: Focus on which characters pop up in all three arcs – Steph and her parents; Steph and Bruce; Steph and Tim. I am chucking Cass out the window here, sorry Cass, but if you’re focusing on these three arcs, Cass doesn’t really fit in.

How others view them: Conditional love/affection from her father and Bruce. Unconditional love/affection from Tim and her mother (though both are not without serious pitfalls).

How they view others: Stephanie has explicitly never loved her father. She has also never explicitly hated him either. What does that say about her? Look at her changing closeness with her mother. What changed between them, and again, what does that say about Stephanie? Crystal got sober, supported Stephanie through her pregnancy, Arthur was removed from their lives, Stephanie makes a conscious effort to be closer to her after returning ‘from the dead’, though continues to lie consistently to her. Stephanie admires Bruce, whilst also right from the get go insisting she does not answer to him. She never quite lets go of wanting that approval.

How does society view them: Her outsider role within the Batfam. She never quite belongs, and at points her closest relationships are actively discouraged from seeing her. Which Tim specifically never entertains. This outsider nature bites literally everyone in the butt during War Games. Her outsider status is still in place by the time Batgirl concludes, due to its largely self-contained nature as a book, but this is less being an outsider more having earned to right to operate independently. Trust has been given and earned.

Dialogue

What does she say and how: A teenage girl in New Jersey from a working class background has a very distinct voice. She does not mince words, nor does she hide what she is feeling. If she is happy, she will say so. If she is annoyed, she will say so. What she won’t do is ask for help when she needs it, due to her background formulating a need for her ‘to do things on her own’.

Think of famous/important Steph quotes from the three arcs I keep talking about – the excuse me if I don’t jump when you bark, the I really was part of the legend, the only variable you can control is yourself. These show how Steph views others and herself.

When I was writing I Would Have Loved You, I literally made a spreadsheet where I have picked out what I think are pertinent quotes from every New 52 issue featuring Tim or Steph along with a synopsis that explained what they were up to/what the main theme of the issue was. Not saying you should do the same because I’m just that goddamn anal when it comes to this sort of stuff, but the point is – look for quotes by/about Steph which highlight the above things we’ve talked about. You have thirty years to go through!

Author Intention

What purpose does this character serve?: A character that young female readers could get attached to – the every girl/girl next door archetype or a character that young boys could have a crush on – the kind of girl who’s into the same sort of stuff as you, I think Chuck Dixon once said of her, from her initial appearance. Fodder for Bruce and Tim’s man pain in War Games. Batgirl it’s a combination of filling the void for a female lead solo character in the batbooks, but also tonally taking on a much lighter and self-contained book that new readers could jump into very easily, directly compared to the more lore heavy Batman, Detective Comics, and Red Robin books.

What is the author trying to communicate: Steph’s character shows that determination can only get a person so far, a support system and doing things for the right reasons (again remember that want versus need argument) is the only way a person will genuinely succeed.

What is her main theme?: Balancing cynicism and idealism – doing acts for the right reasons, and discovering what these reasons actually are.

...

Is this even usable for anyone but myself? Possibly not!

Still... Go write! And good luck!

#ask and i'll babble #stephanie brown #tim drake #timsteph #dc #anon i am sorry if i misconstrued your intentions #but i hope if nothing else this helps you verbalise why you like steph and timsteph by extension #good luck for your writing!

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detectivenightwing · 4 years

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I have something to say about Barbara Gordon.

I'll preface this by saying I'm a disabled person who has been reading comics for 15 years which is more than half my life and at this point its fair to say DC has a problem when it comes to Barbara.

To start things off and rip the band aid off Babs should never have become Batgirl again in 2011. It's ableism, plain and simple but also it erased so much of her character development it's unreal.

In 2011 she was no longer the leader of the Birds of Prey nor did she found the team, she wasn't a librarian ,she wasn't a congresswoman, she wasn't a mentor to Cass or Steph or anyone else (cause they didn't exist) and her place in the hero community was all but washed away into being just another Batsidekick.

All Barbara's stories from 2011 frame her disability as a weakness or a shame or something she must move past or else she's not a real hero like everyone else

And that continues thoughtout her stories right up to Joker War where she mutilated herself ,was in a wheelchair for half an issue and stuck another chip in her spine to walk around again. The purpose of this story is to show Oracle will never come back there will always be another chip to stick in her spine and keep her around as Batgirl.

But then you have stories like Batman #100 that steal Oracle iconography to try and make this shell of a character seem to be as interesting as their disabled former self.

What's important to note is Barbara has no control over herself she like every other comic character is at the mercy of a writer and when that writer wants to destroy Oracle's legacy and what she stood for theres nothing the character can do except fight an evil Oracle A.I or an evil Oracle robot or whatever else.

But the fact is DC don't know what to do with Barbara as Batgirl except cycle through stories about her father, her brother,the Joker, how bad being disabled is but good news Babs just kicked a villain with her legs (brought to you exclusively by able bodied writers) and stories about Babs boyfriend of the month. Seriously she's had like five or six nondescript boyfriends since 2011. (My personal favourite is this continuity's Jason Barb he framed her dad for murder).

It's also horrible how male writers pass Barbara around the Batfamily's men because they don't treat her with any respect. This really started to happen a lot more from 2011 onwards.

She has to be seen with Dick every few months to fuel a dwindling sense of nostalgia for the pre52 and for BTAS. She was paired with Bruce both in that awful movie and in Batman Beyond verse because they knew it would shock people. She was paired with Tim so she'd care when he was kidnapped in the Arkham Knight game. And she's paired with Jason cause they happen to both have trauma related to the Joker. And people keep saying she can help Jason heal from his trauma because y'know that's her purpose as a character to help a man get over something.

What especially frustrates me about that whole trauma thing is that if you read anything of Oracle Barbara had healed she had moved on and recovered. Becoming Oracle was Barbara processing her trauma and moving on to something greater. She lead the Birds of Prey, she mentored the next generation of heroes, she helped run the Justice League and hell she even knocked all of Joker's teeth.

But all of that growth was washed away because apparently she is only important when she is Batgirl. Cause DC doesn't see value in a disabled hero.

#barbara gordon #oracle #personal #its just beyond exhausting at this point #seeing what happens in Batman and Batgirl and Three Jokers #as well as her constantly being written out of animated movies like Hush #like just leave Oracle #leave it alone if you wont respect it #not to mention her not being in a birds of prey movie #like please

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buttofgrayson · 3 years

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Hi If you are still doing headcanons can I please request you to please make headcanons about Dick finally snapping at the batfamily and I mean all of them and finally holding them responsible mainly Bruce of course for all the shit hes taken from them starting from getting fired as robin to what happened in recent comics ric and all that like what makes him finally snap and if you have energy please add even if its short hc for how they react to it Thats it Thank you if you do 🙏🙏🙏😙😙😙😙❤️

I actually have something solid in mind for this I've been thinking about. It might not totally be what you're asking for but it's a conversation I've been thinking of for a long time. It's less snapping at the family and more at Bruce. Hope you enjoy.

The batfamily is gathered in the cave. Tim is last to arrive. Bruce is sitting near the batcomputer turned towards the rest of the family. "So... Are you going to tell us why you've called us here?" Asks Stephanie. "No... because it wasn't me who called you here." Bruce answers as he turns to Dick who is leaning on a piece of machinery. The crowd turns to Dick and he gives a sigh. "Yeah. Listen I need to talk to you all. Especially you Bruce. I know you guys think I'm off in blüdhaven not worrying about you all but your wrong. This is a family and I'm done seeing you all treated like dirt. Duke, Cass, Steph, Tim. You're all heroes of Gotham but why is it that Bruce isn't working with any of you. Not helping guide you or even support you. Instead you're all support for HIM. To come running like good dogs when he calls on you. To come running like I DO. Just a bunch of good dogs. I'm not letting them lead that life. I'm taking them from you Bruce. I'll give them base of operations, help them be better. Do all the things you aren't. If you're not going to lead this family I AM." Bruce stands up. "So that's why you've called them? So they can see you standing up to me?" Bruce snarls. He very much doesn't like this. "This isn't for you. It's for them. I want all of us supporting eachother. And I don't need your permission..." Dick looks to the family. Jason has a WIDE grin on his face. "There is still a lot of help I need... I mean when you guys were my age you were Robin and under Batman's wing. I'm just alone" says Duke. Cassandra raises her hand in agreement. "I'm assuming you want me in charge of all this as well right?" Says Babs. "Well...I'm a leader but I'm no mastermind" Dick replies with a smile and nudges Barbara's shoulder. The two share cute glances at eachother. Bruce says "Fine. This conversation is over." And sits back down to turn towards the bat computer. Dick walks away and the family follow him until he stops. "Theres one more thing. Something that's been bugging me. Bugging me for a long time. Joker." Dick says. Bruce pauses and turns back to face Dick with the absolute most serious face. Jason's eyes widen. Dick continues "Arkham isn't working. And even if it's just him we need to put an end to him. Permanently." Jason steps closer to Dick "now someone is speaking some sense. This latest attack on Gotham? Can't happen ever again." Bruce gets up and steps towards his sons "Are you seriously suggesting what I THINK you're suggesting?!?" He says. "No. Obviously we shouldn't kill him. But Bruce... Nora fries has been frozen for years. Frozen alive. A prison that Joker could never break out of." Dick says bluntly. (Oooooooooh shiiiiiit!!!! The batfamily is silently freaking out. No one talks to Bruce about Joker) Bruce is actually shut silent. "The part that makes me sick is that I know you're smart enough to have thought of this already... So why isn't he frozen? Why is it that you can't take that step?" Dick continues. Jason is totally shocked. If he wasn't down for this whole batfamily team thing he sure as hell is now. "Batman thrives off of fear. He exploits it. It's his greatest weapon. Maybe the fear that Joker gives Gotham is the reason this city tolerates the batman. The reason they support his continued existence. Maybe that's why joker isn't locked away in a frozen cell he could never escape." Dick says and turns his back on Bruce. "You have a lot of thinking to do Bruce... I'll leave you to it. I'm done being your good dog." he says before walking out of the cave. The entire batfamily following with him.

#i think writing this gave me a stroke #batman #nightwing #dc comics #batfamily #dick grayson #jason todd #red hood #robin #tim drake #damian wayne #barabra gordon #stephanie brown

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bigskydreaming · 4 years

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Which batfam's relationships would you love to see? Things that haven't been explored in comics enough lately Like idk Tim and damian or Steph and dick or whatever you like but as a sibiling relationship please

Sooooo many, anon. Like. Too many to count. The list goes on and on. There are SO MANY possible permutations that can be made from the Batfamily, largely untapped duos and trios and lines drawn in ridiculous sibling wars that result in unlikely allies where traditional rivalries are discarded for the moment as they turn to face a common foe....lol.

BUT.

There’s one relationship in particular I would looooooooove to see explored more, I needs it. One ring to rule them all, yada yada yada.

My big Forever Want is Dick and Jason and Cass as just like....just the three of them. Most of Cassandra’s early (and best written) years in the comics were spent primarily around Steph and Tim, so that’s who she’s most associated with of the Batkids (not counting Babs, because Babs and Cass have a very unique and distinct dynamic that I consider a wholly separate thing unlike anything Cass has with any of the other Batkids, regardless of ages).

But anyway, so it makes sense that Cass is largely written about specifically with and around those other characters, but I would loooooove seeing more exploration of her just as one of the trio of Dick, Jason and Cass, the three eldest siblings of the bunch.

The age differences in the comics are always vaguely defined, often contradicted, and frequently retconned anyway, BUT, despite Cass always hanging out with Tim and Steph most, she is at least a couple years older than Tim, which likely puts her at right around the same age as Jason. I headcanon that she and Jason argue about which of them is older a lot, because Cass is chronologically a few months younger than Jason, but the six months Jason was dead don’t count in her opinion.

Related, I also headcanon that Cass is the only one of the family who truly doesn’t tip-toe around the subject of Jason’s death, or feel remotely bad about that. A) She’s a troll, B) Her POV on the matter is “I also died, was thrown in the Lazarus Pit, and found the mother I never knew only to have her try and kill me, so I get to be a troll about that, nyah nyah. *sticks out tongue*

(To be clear, she doesn’t put it in quite those same words. She does stick out her tongue though.)

Anyway, as to the ages, what precisely they are is always anyone’s guess at any given time, and possibly about to be changed a week from that point anyway, BUT it was always fairly consistent that Steph was like a year or so older than Tim, and Cass was a couple years older than him, so likely a year or so older than Steph as well.

So yeah, Cass is essentially right around the same age as Jason, so given that there’s enough of a tendency to refer to Dick and Jason as the eldest siblings specifically (even though Jason himself is, of course, probably only a couple years older than Tim), like....Cass is right up there with him, so I’d love to see more references to not just the two boys as the eldest two siblings, but the three of them as a whole as the eldest siblings of the Batfam.

(Babs and Steph not included there, purely because of their on/off again relationships with Dick and Tim. Not trying to leave them out, I just don’t like defaulting to referring to Dick and Tim’s sometimes romantic and sexual partners as being part of the same sibling unit as them).

So yeah, there’s that, but also, I just think there’s SO much untapped potential to explore in the three of them and their possible dynamics?

Like, Cass and Jason actually DO have a lot in common, and I don’t really agree with takes about how Cass likely would hate Jason because of his stance on killing. She wouldn’t like it, at all, but I view it more as like.....she’d be more frustrated by it than hating him for it, IMO.

Or I mean….hmm. How to put it. It’s actually not accurate to say I don’t agree with those takes on Cass and her stance on Jason’s ‘extra-judicial murder is great actually and if you disagree you’re a loser’ approach to vigilantism.

It’s more that this just isn’t my preferred angle, or what I view as the best angle to take if there’s actually a desire to portray the Batfam as more mutually invested in each others’ lives and happiness than is actually depicted in canon.

Like I mean, the blunt fact is Cass and Jason barely interact in canon, ever. More than any other pair, if there’s any two Batkids who can be argued are only connected in the slimmest of ways, by proxy of being Bruce’s adopted children but with little to no interaction beyond that, it’s them. Quite frankly, the most likely attitude canon Cass has towards Jason is ‘why is this dude even here and also does he have to be, I am not convinced.’

I honestly don’t think Cass in any direct interpretation of her canon characterization, like, actually gives two shits about Jason or anything he does aside from a general awareness that he does mean something to people she does care about and they’d be sad if she beat him up.

All that said, obviously I like the Batfam to be more invested in each other than canon makes them, like, all around. I do think a big part of the lack of opinions Jason and Cass have about each other is due to how little she’s actually regarded as part of the Batfam. And I’m all about writing or imagining a more cohesive Batfam in terms of like….emotional investment, even if this doesn’t actually mean that they’re any less dysfunctional in how they view and interact with each other.

So just for total clarity, that’s where I’m approaching all this from. With the rest of this post intended to be viewed through that lens. I don’t think that Cass honestly gives a shit about Jason and vice versa but I WANT them to, and the following is how I tend to go about it.

And again, it’s not that there’s no merit to different moral stances being the heart of why Cass and Jason do not get along, like….routine extra-judicial murder as a lifestyle is a hell of a thing to disagree about while sitting at the same dinner table, lol, obviously there’s plenty of fodder there to keep Jason and Cass eternally estranged from each other and with no interest in changing that status quo.

The part I diverge from most people I think is I don’t see their contrasting morality as the ONLY thing that would keep them at arm’s length, or necessarily the most narratively compelling take for how to have Cass and Jason dysfunctional with a capital D even WHILE depicting them as viewing each other as siblings to a much bigger degree than canon suggests.

Lol with all that set up out of the way - just trying to be clear that this isn’t about minimizing or devaluing how big an issue the differing moral stances on that matter are in their own right - let’s dive into what my preferred angle to go with is, when it comes to how Cass might view Jason AS a member of her family and be genuinely interested in wanting to know and be known by the guy most of them only hear about in Bruce and Dick’s stories and have only caught glimpses of themselves, all while still largely defaulting to I Just Can’t With This Jackass nine out of ten interactions.

So. One thing about Cass is that its absolutely true and integral to her characterization that naturally empathizing with the man her father forced her to kill as a kid, like reading his shock and fear and pain from his body language, and realizing from that just how wrong what her father had made her do was....this was the catalyst for her running away from her dad and spending the next decade of her life trying to make up for that, in her own view of things.

So Cass is not a fan of killing. That’s absolutely true.

BUT. The flipside to that is that even disregarding absolutely shit-tastic stories like pretty much everything with her and Deathstroke....there still remain a number of occasions where Cass (like I frequently talk about with Dick)...like, HAS still struggled with a genuine desire to kill specific people in SPITE of her overall stance towards killing.....because I mean, specific people have done horrible, terrible things to Cass throughout her life, and many of these things are of a sort that make a person want to y’know. Murder a fucker.

The difference between Cass and Jason is that Cass chooses not to kill, in spite of her temptation to do so at times.....not that she’s completely incapable of understanding his POV on the matter. And also to be clear, I do not think that Cass actually for a second REGRETS her choices not to kill specific people when tempted to. She made her choices, stands by her choices, is PROUD of her choices.

But they’re HER choices. And just like she won’t let anyone make them for her, she’s not IMO the sort to just.....keep a brother completely at a distance because he won’t make the same choices as her.

Like, I’m not saying that this particular topic/choice isn’t a HUGE deal, like, its not some little disagreement. Not by any means. But again....its not like Jason’s doing something she just can’t wrap her mind around or stomach on any level....its something she understands WANTING to do, because of her own life....but she chooses not to do it in spite of that want, and is happy with her choice and genuinely thinks she’s better off for it.

And so I view her dynamic with Jason not being outright conflict or antagonism, but rather riddled with frustration. Because moral arguments aside, I think Cass is happier and more content specifically BECAUSE she rejects the temptation to kill, than she would be if she gave into it.

Lots more rambling about Cass and Jason below the cut and also Cass and Dick and yeah. Just. More.

And not because I don’t think she’d get a measure of satisfaction or comfort from knowing a particular tormentor would never hurt her or anyone else again.....but rather just because I think she gets MORE satisfaction and comfort from who she is and how she views herself....because of resisting that impulse...than she ever would get from giving into it.

And that’s the frustration. Because IMO she does understand Jason and get where he’s coming from....and because of her body language reads, knows exactly what kind of a person Jason truly is - she knows when he’s lying or bluffing about doing things for pragmatic reasons rather than altruism, she can tell when he’s sensitive to a subject or covering up some emotional hurt with bluster and abrasive behavior, she can tell how much of his stance towards a lot of different things comes from a ton of just...hurt....

....like, how a huge part of him is IMO just a betrayed teenager who just wanted parents who loved and protected him, and he thought he found that not once, but twice - when he found his biological mother, only to have her sell him out to the Joker....and when he found safety and comfort with Bruce, only to wind up murdered and then come back and feel....a LOT....about the fact that his father and guardian hadn’t done anything to truly contain or eliminate the threat of the Joker since then, hadn’t done anything to make him feel SAFE again.

Something that gets lost in a lot of discussions about Jason, I feel, is examining the significance of Jason’s refusal to just kill the Joker himself. Because I don’t think its about KILLING the Joker. Its about feeling safe. Protected, defended by someone else, rather than just having to rely on his own protection and defenses as he so often has had to in his life. Jason could kill the Joker himself, true, and he’d know then that he was safe from the Joker, specifically, ever hurting him again. But Jason knows better than most that the Joker isn’t the only person in the world that vile and despicable....he’s just more flamboyant about it than most. And IMO so much of his views about Bruce and the Joker are born not of a genuine fear of the Joker being able to hurt him like that again, but rather an awareness that there’s always a bigger fish, and no matter how skilled Jason has become, there’s always a possibility of him running into someone bigger and badder yet, and winding up helpless all over again, outmatched and unable to defend and protect himself any further....and THAT’S the part that he needs, craves....a belief, awareness, that he has someone in his corner (Bruce) who will stop at nothing to keep him safe and protect him from such people.

Jason and Bruce and the Joker....IMO all of that comes back to not to Jason’s genuine fear of the Joker ever hurting him like that again....if it were that simple, Jason’s more than capable and proactive enough to just kill him himself. Rather, I think it all comes back to the failure to ever truly contain or imprison the Joker, ensure that he absolutely CAN NOT ever get free and become a potential danger to Jason again...and the simple fact that death is ultimately the only thing that will truly keep anyone safe from the Joker. And to Jason, I feel, Bruce’s refusal to kill the Joker ‘for him’ is a kinda betrayal of the childish faith and belief Jason had in Bruce as a kid.....

....because Jason doesn’t hear “I can’t do what you want, because it would destroy everything that makes me ME, I’m afraid of what it would turn me into and that I could become something even worse” when Bruce says variations of that. I think to him, what he hears is “no matter how much I say I love you and want to see you safe from harm and protected, I won’t do the one thing I know is the only guarantee of ensuring your murderer never hurts you again.”

(Which also brings me back to my eternal frustration at the most established fanon takes of Dick and Jason’s dynamic, as well as the frequent refusal to address or acknowledge Dick’s killing of the Joker, since....that in a lot of ways, no matter Dick’s specific reasons, does provide the kind of thing that I think Jason is looking for from having someone else even just WILLING to kill the Joker....its just, it didn’t come from Bruce).

Anyway, Jason is as massively a complicated being as the rest of the Batfam, and his reasons for his choices are not always what he claims, I feel, and no one is better suited to both SEEING that and UNDERSTANDING that than Cass - and not JUST because of her body-language reads, but just her own life and history and the struggles she’s faced about making certain choices.

And so that’s why I always come back to the word ‘frustrated’ when I think about how Cass likely views Jason....because she IS capable of understanding where he’s coming from, and I don’t view her as judging or condemning him for it since I feel she at numerous times has felt or thought the same things, wanted to do the same things as him.....she just chose otherwise, and the most key thing here is in all of those times she’s chosen otherwise, she’s looked back and been GLAD she made the choice she did. She’s HAPPIER for having made it. And that I think is what she wishes for Jason, that she or anyone could express to him in a way that he believed that like.....ultimately, I think she feels he might be happier or more content if he made the choices she did, rather than the choices she wanted to.

And again, that’s not a judgment call on Jason’s actual choices, or killing absolutely vile people whose lives are all about making other lives miserable. Its just about....the fact that Jason is at most in his early twenties, and almost all of his life has been defined by violence. And that takes a toll. No matter what. And I think there’s grounds for Jason’s siblings, even if they understand WHY he does what he does and agrees with a lot of his logic, like I think Dick and Cass do, or could....like, there’s still grounds for them to think yes, I think the world is better off with specific people dead, that the justice system was never going to touch and who pretty much just existed to destroy the lives of every innocent they met...but that doesn’t mean that YOU’RE better off for being the one who actually pulled the trigger.

Violence, no matter what end of it you’re on, takes a toll. No matter how justified or not you are in engaging in it, just doing so has emotional and mental consequences, its not as easy as it might seem from a distance, removed from the actual atmosphere and effects of it. And killing, I think, inevitably would do the same thing. It doesn’t matter how much a person deserved to die....that’s not the point. The point is, can the person pulling the trigger ever truly do so without suffering ANY emotional blowback or fallout from doing so. I don’t think that killing someone in self-defense, or in defense of someone else, like....I don’t think that’s like, guaranteed to ‘break a person’ or destroy someone emotionally or psychologically, like a lot of fics posit that would happen to various good-hearted characters if they killed their enemies. I don’t agree with that, I’m not saying that.

All actions have consequences, good and bad alike. And killing someone, no matter how much they may or may not have deserved to die....is a BIG action. It just seems inevitable for it to have equally big consequences, and while that’s not inherently the same thing as ‘doing this will destroy this character forever, emotionally and psychologically’.....when you do it ENOUGH, when you repeat that Big Action over and over throughout your life....I think its inevitable that the toll that takes on you would start to add up.

And I would love to see more fics address the family’s views and actions towards Jason from that perspective, rather than it always being about the morality of his actions and whether or not someone deserved to die or whether or not Jason was justified in trusting his assessment of that enough to pull a trigger.

But rather just....instead of examining “is the world better off with these people dead,” Jason’s father and siblings asking “are you better off for having been the one to kill them.”

Instead of debating whether or not some people are so harmful to innocents around them that they need to die, them asking....but do you need to be the one to kill them.

Instead of engaging with his arguments that he’s making the world safer with every rapist and crime lord he takes out for good, them just side-stepping that entirely and saying “screw the world right now, I’m talking to my brother and asking if he’s happy. If the actions he’s taking, even with the best of intentions, are what’s best for him and his life, rather than the world at large.”

Them taking the stance that like....no matter what they do, no matter how much any of them do, no matter how many innocents they save or murderers they kill....at the end of their lives, the work will still need doing. There will still be more innocents that need saving, more murderers and rapists who deserve killing.

But they themselves need to be more than just people tackling jobs that will never truly be finished. They don’t exist as people, just to be vigilantes. Vigilantism is what they choose to DO while alive, how they make a mark, leave the world a little better than they found it....but their own lives have to be more than about just that, or they stop existing as anything other than a machine that’s only purpose is for the betterment of others with no concern for themselves or any personal wants or needs beyond just those that help their vigilantism.

So back to Cass...and Dick as well, actually, since the similarities in how I view him and his stances in all of this are a big part of why I said I would love to see more of the three eldest as a trio, rather than just Dick and Jason, or even Jason and Cassandra....

The above is what I see as their stance towards Jason and killing people. They get it. They probably even agree in some cases. They’re not even trying to argue that he’s wrong, because that’s like....just not the point to them. Not their concern. What they want to know is just: is their brother happy. Are his actions resulting in the kind of life he wants for himself, or is he basically just existing to be a murderer/rapist killing machine, trying to take out as many as he can before he dies, no matter how many that leaves afterwards.

Each of his kills might make the world a slightly better place.....but do they make HIS world slightly better with each trigger pulled? Or slightly worse? And if Jason’s argument to that is it doesn’t matter, how it affects him doesn’t matter as much as how much it impacts the world, how he feels or is in the aftermath of killing someone is not what’s important here, the important thing is just whether or not that person needed killing.....

Well, Dick and Cass, written as siblings who do get him but also love him and want him to be happy as much as they want the world to be a better place.....

There’s a wealth of untapped potential in their dynamics, between the three of them, if Dick and Cass were faced with Jason making that argument, saying those words.....and then just shutting that shit down with “yeah, as your siblings who love you and think you’re what’s important here, we’re gonna go with hard disagree.”

Something can be right in general....and yet not right for a person in specific. Something can need to be done....but that doesn’t make any specific person necessarily the person who needs to do it. Jason’s stance on killing and his actions resulting from it might actually make the world a better place....but that doesn’t mean those are the only actions he could make to do so, that there’s no other actions he could make that could make a difference just in different ways.

And all of that has far more to do with Dick and Cassandra’s moral views on vigilantism and killing, IMO, than just ‘no, killing is bad and never allowed, don’t do it, it’ll make you bad and then we’ll have to yell at you at dinner and possibly disown you but only sometimes.’

After all.....just because they don’t kill the people they save victims from....just because those people might hurt more people in the future, because they were left alive to do so....

None of that means that the act of saving a victim from them in the here and now doesn’t still matter. Hypotheticals can always be conjured to retroactively make that seem less significant, but that doesn’t mean that it is. Just because the victimizer that they didn’t kill might victimize someone else in the future....doesn’t mean that their current victim still isn’t better off for having been saved today by Dick or Cass or whomever. Just because something bad might still happen in the future, to the person they just rescued now, doesn’t mean that the time they have between now and then as a result of a vigilante’s intervention doesn’t still matter too.

I’m just saying, if the characters just look at their vigilantism and the effects of their actions in terms of NUMBERS, statistics, tallies of lives saved and lives lost....there will ALWAYS be more numbers that can be added to any of those columns, making them feel that their efforts aren’t adding up enough, not making enough of a dent, that the math shows that there could be more here, less here, blah blah blah, etc....

But when the characters look at their vigilantism as NOT being a zero sum game, as NOT being the inevitable result of them just existing, as though the only reason for them being alive is to make a dent in those numbers.....

Rather, when they look at their vigilantism instead just as what they CHOOSE to DO with their lives....and thus EVERY life saved is a life that wouldn’t be if they’d done something else with their lives, and thus EVERY thing they’ve done with a positive end result as a vigilante has made the world better....

In that vein, I’d like to see more of the characters actually counting the wins for a change, rather than framing everything in terms of a loss. Y’know, because it could have been better, they could have done more, this or that would be so much better if only they could see the future and plan for every single possible repercussion of their actions or inactions, etc, etc.

Anyway, this is what I view Cass and Jason’s dynamic as being, ideally, and the source of her frustration with him is not that he’s wrong or a horrible person for facing some of the same moral quandaries she’s struggled with and making the opposite choice from her.....its just that its not about whether she’s RIGHT because of the choices she made instead....its about whether she’s HAPPIER because of them. And she is. And that’s what she would want for Jason too, I think.

Of course, I also don’t really agree with takes that have Cass as like, doting on Jason because he’s suffered the most and being overprotective and like, insta-bonding and all of this. Ie the tendency to only use Cass in a fic to boost or prop up any given fave, like “Cass likes and supports this character, so that must mean this character is the most deserving, but also, who cares what Cass deserves or thinks beyond any of that, am I right. Pfft.”

No thank you, and also: *evokes an endless sigh that reverberates eternally throughout the Caverns of Misery and Despair aka Fandom, Why Must You Be So Fandom*

Nah, I view Cass as being blunt and to the point. She might understand Jason, but that doesn’t mean she coddles him or is too aware of how much trauma he’s endured to ever just say “nope, you’re wrong, I disagree. Also, I’m older than you.”

I think Cass loves her brothers and wants what’s best for them, but she knows better than most that all her brothers are committed to having Epic Self-Destructive and Self-Sabotaging streaks, which means they are often their own worst enemies, which then makes them her enemies too.

*Shrugs* It gets a little complicated sometimes.

So yeah, I would love to see more of Cass and Dick and Jason all together, in harmony and in conflict, both are good. I think they could all play off each other so well, because Dick and Jason have a ton in common like I’ve talked about a lot, but there are those areas where they clash or butt heads, and adding Cass into the mix makes for a good buffer. While at the same time, as this post detailed, Cass and Jason have the potential to be the best of friends or the worst of siblings, understanding each other well but committed to opposing choices, and Dick makes a good buffer there.

And Dick and Cass, I wrote that whole epic post about how I think there are reasons that at times Dick and Cass might...not butt heads, exactly, so much as just...be wary or awkward around each other, because Dick doesn’t like how well Cass can see through him when he’s trying to bottle shit up and Cass doesn’t like that Dick’s one of the only people she occasionally ‘glitches’ on, misreads, because performing and the joy of acrobatics and moving are so ingrained in him from birth, and so tangled up in cherished memories of time with his parents even at the same time that he might be miserable about something else, that his body just is moving on autopilot, muscle memory and thus reading as just Dick’s glee and joy at pulling off some impossible stunt he’s proud of, even while his conscious thoughts are full of self-recrimination about his latest failing.

(For the record, Cass is NOT A MIND READER. Well, anymore. But her ability to read body language is a huge help in understanding people, makes her exceptionally intuitive, and lets her stay one step ahead of everyone she fights.....but that’s NOT the same thing as knowing what someone’s thinking at any given time, or that they’re actually thinking what she believes they are, based on their body language. She’s not omniscient, and she’s not infallible. And her body-language reading is a skill like any other....its only as good as how well she makes use of it. And Cass is as human as anyone else...she has her own biases, preconceptions about people or things, she has her own personal likes and dislikes, petty resentments, favorites...and all of these things color her thoughts.....like when she consciously tries to interpret what she’s reading and translate that into something she can use or work off of. My point being....she CAN be wrong. Her skill isn’t an unbeatable lie detector machine or whatever....just because she’s automatically reading a person’s body language correctly, that doesn’t guarantee that the conscious conclusions she draws as to what her skill is telling her, are like, always going to be right. Things can cloud her judgment, make her miss something she otherwise would have caught, etc.)

Anyway. So yeah, just like with Dick and Jason, and Cass and Jason, there are reasons and ways that Dick and Cass might clash or be awkward around each other at times, and Jason is IMO actually positioned to be an excellent buffer for them, as unlikely as that might be. The occasions when Dick and Cass aren’t on the same page are unlikely to be outright conflicts, since both of them tend to hold their true cards close to their chests, so its less about what they say to each other and more about them holding back from saying things to each other, and Jason would just be like: “This is dumb. You’re both being dumb. You only get like this when one or both of you feel like the other is hiding shit or trying to hide shit or wanting to hide shit, and you spend more time and energy worrying about that then the actual shit itself. Which again, for posterity. Is DUMB. D-u-m-b. So why don’t you both just put on your big boy and big girl pants and speak your shit and get all this over with and out of the way, so we can go do something fun, like blow up a shipment of weapons.”

And Dick would just be like “Umm, hypocritical much? You’re the last person to be calling us out for that.”

And Jason just shrugs and is like, “Yeah, sure, but I mean. I put eight heads in a duffel bag once. Being a hypocrite about crap like this isn’t really going to keep me up at night.”

Cass: “And we’re not blowing anything up tonight.”

Jason: “Why are you the enemy of Fun and Joy?”

Cass: “Why are explosions the first thing you jump to when you think of fun?”

Jason: “Fire pretty. I have multiple undiagnosed psychological conditions probably. I’m kinnie with explosions and mass destruction or whatever. Pick one. I can come up with more if you need.”

Anyway. So all of that. Like I said, there are tons of relationships I’d love to see explored more - Cass and Damian, Cass and Dick and Damian, Steph and Duke, Steph and Jason and Tim, Dick and Duke and Damian, the list goes on -

But Dick and Cass and Jason is my Forever Mood, I need them, the three eldest Wayne children being a trio unto themselves at times, in all their multi-faceted and larger than life glory.

#my somewhat controversial take on Cass and Jason’s potential dynamic. for posterity and stuff

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our-happygirl500-fan · 4 years

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You know something? I absolutely hate comic ages and timelines because they keep on switching round and changing and some characters are allowed to age and some characters aren’t so when I try to figure out the age difference between characters I’m just like does this work? Does this work?

For example Dick’s been allowed to grow into adulthood yet Bruce isn’t allowed to be a day past 45 at most unless we’re looking at a future timeline like the Dark Knight Returns or Batman Beyond.

Damian became 13 with DC Rebirth so he could have his own Teen Titans team yet Tim, Steph and Cass have somehow aged backwards. Like Cass is supposed to be the same age as Jason (a few months older than him in fact), Steph was in college before the reboot and Tim was nearly 18 yet Tim, Steph and Cass have all been aged down to be 16 or the same age as Duke which is confusing (like there is not a three year age difference between Damian and Tim, Tim would have died in their first meeting if that was the case)

Dick’s age when his parents died has been switched around to be somewhere between 8-12, the later making more sense considering that Tim was supposed to be 3 when he met Dick at the circus and if he had met Dick when Dick was 8-9 there would have been a 5-6 year age difference which wouldn’t work since Jason met Bruce when he was 12 and Dick had just gone off to college making the age difference between Jason and Dick 5-6 years.

So to make sense of the ages let’s say that Dick became Robin at 12 Bruce in his early to mid 20′s when he takes Dick in, Dick is Robin for six years goes off to college, becomes Nightwing, drops out, moves in with Titans ect, Bruce is in his late 20′s or early 30′s at this point he meets Jason at 12-13 Jason is Robin for around three years and dies and Bruce is in his early to mid 30′s at this point.

Makes sense so far right? Right? Wrong!

Because we’re bringing Carrie Kelly into this!

A popular thing to do in fanfiction is have Carrie Kelly be the baby that Steph gave up for adoption as it’s a cool thing to do to tie Carrie into the Batfamily and also saves the trouble of making an OC yet it’s not actually possible to have Carrie be Steph’s daughter as the Dark Knight Returns is supposed to take place ten years after Jason’s death and Jason is two years older than Steph and Steph had her baby when she was 15 (got pregnant at 14) meaning that there’s about a 17 year age gap between Jason and Steph’s baby and Steph’s baby would have been around 8 at the time of the Dark Knight Returns and both Carrie and Bruce’s ages are clearly listed as 13 and 55 respectively which means that there’s a 12 year difference between Carrie and Jason.

That makes sense but Bruce being 55 during the Dark Knight Returns means that Bruce was supposed to be 45 when Jason died! Which means he was like what pushing 50 by the time Damian showed up? Which alright that I can give my parents were turning 50 when I was like 11 it happens but still wow, Bruce needs to retire and let Cass be Batman.

But anyway adding Carrie into the mix as well as the age differences we already know and taking into account that Steph is supposed to be nearly a year older than Tim and Cass is two years older than Steph as well as the fact that Cass is a few months older than Jason as she was already 18 when Bruce took her to Jason’s grave on Jason’s 18th Birthday and Jason and Steph’s Birthday’s are really close and Steph ‘dies’ a little later at 16. Also Damian is said repeatedly to be 10 during Steph’s Batgirl run “you’re a ten year old boy who doesn’t know how to have fun” and Steph is 18 in her first year of college and Tim is said to be 17 repeatedly in his Red Robin run which is furthur evidence that there’s around a one year age gap between Steph and Tim meaning there’s a 7 year age gap between Tim and Damian and an 8 year age gap between Steph and Damian. Damian is supposed to be 12 during Robin War and Duke is listed as 16 in the We Are Robin kid’s bios and we don’t really know if he’s turned 17 yet but let’s assume that there’s a 3-4 year age gap between Duke and Damian.

Barbara’s age is tricky because when she was first introduced she was already a grown up, as she was a librarian and already graduated college while Dick was still Bruce’s ward in fact Dick’s crush of Bab’s was originally supposed to be a sort of boy hood crush thing in her early appearances similar to Damian’s own crush on Steph but later on comics decided to make Barbara and Dick closer in age so they could set up a romance between the two and usually make Barbara around two years older than Dick since she went off to college before him. But then again Barbara’s age is funny especially since the reboot where it looks like DC wants to keep her young and they’ve always avoided saying her exact age unlike other characters but for the sake of simplicity let’s just say the age difference between her and Dick is two years.

So if Bruce is 55 in the Dark Knight Returns then the ages in the Dark Knight Returns that means the ages of the Batfamily in the Dark Knight Returns is:

Bruce: 55

Barbara: 33

Dick: 31

Cass: 25

Jason: 25

Steph: 23

Tim: 22

Duke: 19

Damian: 15

Carrie Kelly: 13

Okay clear concise ages and age differences so going by these ages the ages of the Batfamily during every big event would be:

Day at the circus:

Bruce: 36

Barbara: 14

Dick: 12

Cass: 6

Jason: 6

Steph: 4

Tim: 3

Duke: 0

Damian: -4

Carrie Kelly: -6

Jason Dies:

Bruce: 45

Barbara: 23

Dick: 21

Cass: 15

Jason: 15

Steph: 13

Tim: 12

Duke: 9

Damian: 5

Carrie Kelly: 3

Tim becomes Robin at 13 and meets Steph less than a year later while Steph’s 14, Steph get’s pregnant and the quake happens she has the baby at 15 and Cass becomes Batgirl at 17. Steph ‘dies’ at 16 and spends 1-2 years in Africa while Tim and Cass move to Bludhaven, Jason comes back, Bludhaven blows up, Bruce Dick and Tim travel for a year while Cass gets brainwashed by Slade and then rescued by Tim and Cass gets officially adopted. Damian shows up and then Steph comes back to Gotham then Bruce ‘dies’ and Batman Reborn happens.

Batman Reborn:

Bruce: 50

Barbara: 28

Dick: 26

Cass: 20

Jason: 20

Steph: 18

Tim: 17

Duke: 14

Damian: 10

Carrie Kelly: 8

Dick is Batman for a bit, Damian becomes Robin, Steph becomes Batgirl, Tim becomes Red Robin, Cass becomes Black Bat. After a few months Bruce comes back and starts setting but Batman incorporated, Steph goes to English boarding school for a bit Dick goes back to being Nightwing when Damian is 11 and Damian starts working with Bruce and the Leviathan stuff with Talia happens.Damian is 12 and goes off with Goliath trying to atone from the year of blood and We Are Robin happens, Bruce looses his memories gets them back, Damian is 13 forms his own Titans and Duke joins the Batfamily.

So currently what everyones ages SHOULD be in comics:

Bruce: 53

Barbara: 31

Dick: 29

Cass: 23

Jason: 23

Steph: 21

Tim: 20

Duke: 17

Damian: 13

Carrie Kelly: 11

Oh and before anyone says that Carrie appeared as a college student in the New 52 the New 52 continuity is a mess. Like Cassie, Connor and Bart all appeared in 2011 Teen Titans but then Bart and Connor disappeared and all three of them were reintroduced in Young Justice 2019. Raven’s age is a mess as well because she’s supposed to be Dick’s age but she kissed Wallace who’s only two years older than Damian and just you know it’s a mess I’m sticking to these ages this is like the third time I’ve tried to calculate this. I don’t even know where Terry or Helena’s even supposed to go.

But any way in conclusion Bruce is old and should retire and give Cass Batman

#DC comics #cassandra cain #stephanie brown #bruce wayne #barbara gordon #dick grayson #jason todd #tim drake #duke thomas #damian wayne #carrie kelley #batfamily #dc release a timeline that makes sense

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avengerdragoness · 5 years

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Day Eight: Don’t Ruin It [Jason Todd x Reader]

Requested by @winterwolf0916: “Hello amazing Dragoness, can you do one with Jason and the reader both bestfriends and have a crush towards each other. So parts of the batfamily(like, Babs, dick, Damian, Tim, cass, and or Steph. Basically your decision of who to put.) are trying to set them up. Like mistletoes, slow dances, or secret santa. Your decision. But Jason and the reader keeps missing their chance of expressing/telling their feelings toward each other. I'm not sure for the ending. It's your decision. Also with fluff💙”

A/n: I really hope you enjoy this love! I loved writing it and I think it’s pretty cute haha! Merry Christmas my love! (No taglist again)

Reader Type: Female ______

You laughed as Jason dipped you on the dance floor at Bruce’s Christmas charity gala. Smiling as he pulled you back up and against his chest before continuing to lead you in the dance. He wore a genuine smile as he spun you around. Making you squeal as he pulled you close again.

A blush spread on your cheeks as Jason rested his forehead to yours. His hand on your waist keeping you close to him. You could feel his breath on your face while staring up into his blue hues. “[F/n], I need to tell you something.” He whispered and your brows furrow as you nodded. He opened his mouth to keep speaking but was cut off when a lady bumped into him. She was obviously a little tipsy as she ruined the moment by spilling her wine on him.

“Oh my goodness I’m so sorry dear” She immediately apologized trying to tend to the stain she just created on Jason’s white shirt under his suit jacket. Jason chuckled and stopped her from dabbing the stain with her shawl. “It’s okay ma’am, no harm done. Perhaps you should get some water.” He said and the woman nodded before setting her glass on a table in favor of a glass of water.

Though now you were examining the fresh stain on the shirt. “Alfred can get it out.” You mumbled and Jason chuckled, “Yeah, but I should go change. Alfred always brings spare shirts, I’ll be right back.” He said before going to find Alfred.

You sighed sadly and straightened your dress as he left you. A couple of men coming up to ask you for a dance. Jason had been hogging you all night.

Across the room his siblings were groaning in frustration. “They were so close” Steph’s head fell in her arms on the table. Tim rubbed her back and nodded, “Jason was definitely going to finally confess.” He sighed.

Babs shook her head, “This is why Bruce shouldn’t have sprung for the unlimited wine and champagne.” She grumbled and Dick crossed his arms. “It’s okay guys, they can’t be oblivious forever.” He said and all his siblings nodded.

The next moment they thought it was gonna happen, it seemed you were going to be the one to confess. You had gotten Jason for secret santa and had pulled him somewhere private to give the gift to him. Though Dick and Tim snuck over to watch you two in the hall from around a corner.

Jason peeled away the wrapping paper to reveal a wooden picture frame. In it was a picture of the two of you. It was a day you made him hang up everything Red Hood and go to an amusement park with you. In it you were on his back laughing because right before the picture was taken Jason had pretended to drop you.

“I remember this” He smiled down at the picture. “You were so pissed after it was taken. I can’t believe you actually thought I’d drop you.”

“You are an ass sometimes.” You laughed and leaned your head against his shoulder to look down at the picture. “Jason…” You caught his attention. “At Bruce’s gala you were gonna say something, and I think I know what you were gonna say but I’m not sure.” Your eyes moved to look up at his face. He looked back down at you, watching you through his bangs. “Jason, I think I..” You began to say but suddenly Titus came bursting through the hallway, running between you and Jason separating you.

Soon Damian came running after him. “Titus!” He yelled before shoving Jason out of the way. “Move Todd!” Growling as he ran past you both. It made Jason drop the frame and the glass shattered on the floor. “Shit!” Jason growled, visibly frustrated now. You sighed and looked down at your the broken glass, mumbling ‘nevermind’ before moving to head to the kitchen.

Tim and Dick were both ready to kill Damian. Again, you guys were so close and something ruined the moment for you again. Not to mention he ruined your gift for him. Dick left Tim’s side and followed you to the kitchen. You were sitting at the counter, playing with your sleeve. “Hey you alright [F/n]?” He came and sat beside you.

You shrugged, “Honestly.. I’m so fucking frustrated.”

Dick watched as you wiped your eyes, tears threatening them. He frowned and wrapped an arm around you. “Hey it’s okay, what’s the matter?”

“I just… I like Jason, more than a friend. But it feels like every time either of us try and talk about being anymore than just friends. Something interrupts it. Not to mention my present for him just got ruined.” Dick frowned and rubbed your shoulder. “[F/n], I know it’s frustrating. But you just have to hang in there, I’m sure the time will come. You’re a beautiful woman and Jason will be a lucky guy when he finally comes to his senses.”

Dick’s words made you smile. “You mean that?” He chuckled and nodded. “Of course I do.”

You smiled and wiped your eyes. “Thank you Dick, that meant a lot.” He grinned and rubbed your back. “Keep your chin up.” He said while placing a cookie in your hand and standing up to head back to the living room. Taking a deep breath, you ate the cookie while calming down.

After finishing you got up and went to join the family again. However Jason was coming in just as you were leaving, catching you in the doorway. “Hey, there you are.” He smiled and stopped you. “I was wondering where you went.”

Smiling you shrugged, “Just was in here.” Jason looked down at you and chuckled. “I’m sorry about the picture, I’m gonna wring Damian’s neck. You’ll have to help me find a new frame.” He said but when he finally met yours eyes his smile fell as he cupped your cheek. “Your eyes are red, were you crying?” You blushed and looked at your feet, “No, I just.. Got frustrated. Titus kinda, ruined our moment.”

Jason nodded, “yeah, sorry about that. Something always seems to interrupt us huh?”

“Yeah” You looked up at him, “Seems like it.” However you noticed something you hadn’t before. “Oh my god” you smiled and mumbled before burying your face in his chest. He chuckled and let his arm wrap around your waist. “What?”

You didn’t pull your face away and pointed above you. Jason looked up and saw a sprig of mistletoe hanging above you. He grinned and laughed “Oh when did that get there.” His voice gave away the smirk he was obviously wearing. Making you peek up at him, you really love that smirk. He looked back down at you, catching you peeking at him.

Jason smiled and caught your chin, tilting your head so he could see your face completely. That hand cupped your cheek gently before he leaned down. You pushed up to meet him halfway, catching his lips with yours. His were a little chapped and he tasted like candy canes. Humming as your arms wrapped around his neck to pull him closer, one of your hands toying with his hair.

Neither of you didn’t pull away until your lungs were screaming for air. When you finally did your eyes fluttered open quick enough to see the grin that pulled at his lips before he caught yours again. This one was a little less gentle and more heated than the first. It felt desperate as he pressed your back to the archway.

You were both lost in each other, leaving you oblivious to his siblings watching a few feet away, grinning to themselves. “Should we say something?” Steph whispered and Dick shook his head.

“They’ve had enough moments ruined. Let them have this one.” They all smiled and nodded before retreating back into the living room. Though Damian was the one to say what everyone was thinking.

It was about damn time.

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12freddofrogs · 5 years

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Gotham Crusaders - A Batfamily TV Show

A few months ago I started wondering how I would adapt the Batman/Batfam comics to TV. I started relatively simple, but then I started getting a little more detailed with a specific episode plot here, a little more to this scene there, some dialogue to be specified… and now the fic is nearly 80k on Ao3, and I still have another season/chapter to go.

This is an extract from Chapter/Season Five, Damian’s Robin introduction, also known as Dick’s run as Batman.

Other episodes in S5 include Cass giving the Batgirl mantle to Steph, Jason getting caught in a hostage situation at Gotham Library, Dick introducing Damian to ice-cream, Tim making a reluctant alliance with the League of Assassins, the Red Hood trying and failing to convince himself he doesn’t care, and the general aftermath of the Bats without Bruce.

Start Gotham Crusaders from Season One Here

Season Five Here

Season Five, Episode Sixteen - Halloween Night

There haven’t been any holiday episodes so far. Let’s celebrate Halloween with the Batfamily.

Cass, Steph, and Babs wander the Gotham University Halloween fete at dusk.

For the moment, they’re just having fun. Steph goes apple-bobbing. Babs aces a ring-toss. Cass is unimpressed with cotton-candy.

A commotion catches their attention.

The girls hurry to where one of the students had tried to tear apart a light display. By the time they arrive, two security guards have already pulled the skinny twenty-year-old off.

He’s babbling about how lights will attract Batman, even as the security guards breathalyse him.

In his theory, the Batsignal is a way for the police to announce when they have a new victim for him, so it’s very unwise for them to have their own vampire-beacon on Halloween night.

“Batman and his colony are feeding on criminals to lure us into a false sense of security before he unleashes his dark powers—”

Steph laughs so hard she falls over. The student pauses long enough to glare at her, which doesn’t help.

Babs bites her hand to stop giggling. Cass is trying to pull Steph to her feet.

Finally, the student is escorted back to his dorm, mumbling that Gotham is going to be enslaved because they believe a blood-sucking monster wants to help.

Robin’s been a child for over ten years now, how is that not suspicious?

If anything would get Steph off the ground, it was not that.

Once he’s gone, Cass asks what a vampire is.

Meanwhile, Dick and Damian are arguing in the Manor living room.

“I’m not asking you to go trick-or-treating.” Dick pinches the bridge of his nose. “Or dress up, or put on a spooky voice, or do anything beneath the outrageous dignity of a ten-year-old. All I’m asking is you open the door, smile, and give out candy.”

“I don’t understand why we reward these pitiful efforts.” Damian looks out the window. Alfred is visible handing chocolate to a girl dressed as a dragon. “I have seen three facsimiles of armour tonight, none of which would stand up to the shoddiest of blades, and there’s no challenge in approaching the door. Surely we should have at least set up a basic trap to be worth overcoming?”

“Okay, the point of fun is a lesson for later.” Dick picks up a novelty candy bucket and shoves it into Damian’s hands. “Right now is social skills.” He drags his youngest brother to the hallway. Through the window, there’s another group of trick-or-treaters. “Talk to these kids, and then we’ll go on patrol.”

“Tch! Fine!” Damian storms to the door as Alfred steps out of the way. He sends an icy glare over his shoulder before turning the knob.

“Trick or treat!” Three eight-year-olds beam at him: a princess, an astronaut, and a dinosaur.

It’s impressive Damian’s forced grin doesn’t scare them. There’s nothing genuine about the teeth on show. “I… like… your costumes.”

“Thank you!” The astronaut holds out her sack.

“You must be a dead astronaut.” Damian gives her a chocolate. “Appropriately ‘spooky’.”

“I’m not a scary astronaut”

“No, you’re a scared astronaut.” Damian hands confectionary to her companions. “Even accepting the useless fabric as part of the holiday, your ‘suit’ stops at your wrists and ankles, exposing much of your skin to the void. Your ‘helmet’ is improperly attached to your shirt, and there is no indication your character has an air supply. By now you would have suffocated as your blood vessels rupture and the fluid in your eye sockets boil.”

The children gape at him.

“Happy Halloween.” He shuts the door. “Well?”

Dick and Alfred exchange a look. “He did smile.”

“That he did.”

Night falls and the Bats go on patrol.

Batgirl detours back to campus, tucking her comm unit into her belt.

The conspiracist-student is getting ready for bed. When he steps into his bedroom, he screams to find Batgirl on his desk.

“For someone so afraid of Bats, you’d think you lock your window.”

He stumbles back, pressing himself against the wall. “You… you can’t come in here without an invitation. You shouldn’t be—”

“Vampires can’t enter houses without permission. This isn’t a house.” Batgirl waves at the dorm. “It’s not your home, not a permanent space, it’s basically public property. I can come and go.”

Maybe it’s a little cruel, but it’s supposed to be a harmless prank.

Batgirl’s rattles off vampire lore, occasionally slips into a bad Transylvanian accent she can’t hold, makes spooky gestures with her hands.

She does promise that the Bats of Gotham don’t kill — maybe they’ll take a sip from a mugger, but nothing they can’t spare.

“Calm down, I’m not going to bite you. We’re harmless, really, at least to law-abiding citizens like—”

The student had been pushing himself along the wall to his closet, where he rips out a clove of garlic.

Batgirl is delighted, and plays the part. Hissing, retreating, hands out defensively. It’s awful acting, but she’s only there for a joke. It certainly convinces him.

While Batgirl is dramatically cowering from a spice, the student grabs a heavy metal water bottle from the desk and hits her over the head.

(Continues under the cut)

Batgirl wakes up tied to a chair in a lecture theatre.

A garlic garland is draped around her neck.

Steph is more concerned with the ropes. Her arms are pinned to the arm rests, done so vigorously she can barely wriggle her fingers. Her legs are similarly tied.

It’s still night. The lecture theatre is dark, with the only light being a glimpse of the festival from the windows and the candles the student is lighting.

“Um, hi?”

The student leaps to his feet, brandishing a cross at her. “Stay back!”

“Sure. Just untie me first.” Batgirl tugs at her ropes. “Okay, we may have gotten off on the wrong foot. I was kinda joking. I’m not a vampire.”

Shockingly, he is unconvinced. “I will not allow your colony to feast on the innocent.”

Batgirl switches her argument from ‘not-a-vampire’ to ‘not-an-evil-vampire’. It doesn’t work either.

Finally she groans, letting her head hang forwards. “How long am I going to be here?”

“Until morning, when you are destroyed by the rays of the sun.” With that dramatic pronouncement he picks up his book and leaves.

Batgirl sighs. “Nobody will ever let me hear the end of this.”

Meanwhile, the episode needs a bigger threat than a uni student with a stroke of luck.

Clayface is a more traditional Halloween villain.

Batman and Robin get waved down from a building by a nearly hysterical man, babbling about a monster that just mugged him.

At first Batman just tries to calm him down, but the revelation that the mud coating his shirt is attempting to crawl away makes them realise Clayface is active.

They give him money to take a cab home and the Dynamic Duo split up to search.

Contacting the others reveals that Oracle’s cameras caught glimpses of Clayface an hour ago, that Black Bat is patrolling on the North End but will keep an eye out, and Batgirl isn’t picking up,

While Batman continues the A-plot with an actual rogue, Robin is sent to find Batgirl.

He grumbles as he leaves, but doesn’t protest.

Steph hadn’t wanted to advertise her plans to prank a civilian, and had switched her tracker/comms off as she arrived on campus. That was still enough of a record for Oracle to note she went back to the university.

Oracle takes a guess and researches the vampire conspiracist. Henry Davids has posted a lot online.

The window to his dorm is open. Robin grapples up, pauses when he finds identical grapple marks already in the wood.

Inside the room are signs of a struggle. A single blonde hair is caught on the curtain.

“Oracle. Batgirl was here and appears to have been outmatched by someone with less combat training than a goldfish. What can you tell me about this building’s activities?”

“Not much, kiddo. Most of the dorm building cameras have been broken for months, needing new funding that hasn’t gone through.”

Black Bat is in the middle of stopping a convenience store robbery, but she takes the time to touch her comms. “Do you want back-up?” she asks, spinning neatly to slam her knee into someone’s throat. “Can be there twenty minutes.”

“No.” Robin climbs out the window. “I can handle this.”

He swings up and drops down to the ground.

Meanwhile, Henry has returned to the lecture theatre.

Batgirl is bored, but her cowl’s eyes widen when she sees him placing a pile of wooden stakes on the teacher’s desk. “Wait, I thought you were going to burn me in sunlight?”

“I said you would die at sunrise. I’m not dumb enough to think a vampire can be defeated by one.”

“How about garlic and sunlight? Throw in some holy water, too, that’ll do the trick — is that one silver?”

Robin is combing the campus.

Oracle tries to help, but Batgirl’s offline and there aren’t enough security cameras. Plus, she’s also concerned with finding Clayface.

“Are we sure Davids is still on the grounds?” Robin asks.

“No, but he hasn’t got a vehicle, the buses aren’t running, and there haven’t been any taxis. If Henry left campus, he was on foot. Even in Gotham, you can’t drag an unconscious girl through a crowd unnoticed.”

“You think she was unconscious?” Batman asks, crouching in an alleyway. More of Clayface’s mud is splattered over the ground, steadily making the way to a manhole cover.

“Hard to imagine what he could have threatened her with to make her go willingly, and Robin said there was a fight.”

“And there’s no digital trail.” Batman puts a sliver of mud into a tray as a compass and slides into the underground. “Guess you’re on physical detective work, Robin.”

“How? Drunken crowds roam every pathway. Even if he left footprints, every sign would be obliterated.”

“Those crowds happen to be your best bet,” Oracle says. “Just ask for information.”

“Nicely,” Black Bat adds, handcuffing the last of her robbers to a streetlight. “Don’t hurt anyone.”

“Or tip anyone off,” Batman says. He flicks his torch against the walls, which bounces back and lights up his grin. “You need to go undercover.”

“How would I do that?”

Cut to Damian knocking on a door.

“Trick or treat,” Robin mumbles reluctantly, holding out a bag from the fete.

He’s given a slew of compliments about how adorable he is, how cute his Robin costume is (“Did you make that yourself?“) and a small shower of candy.

“Thank you,” he says, forcing a smile. “Have you seen my… older sister? We’re in matching costumes. She’s Batgirl.”

He’s told they must look adorable, but nobody’s seen her.

At another party someone waves over someone dressed in a well-intentioned-but-badly-designed Batgirl costume Robin has to visibly bite back comments about.

His bag fills quickly. Once in a while he double-checks no-one’s watching before sneaking a chocolate.

Finally, he gets some useful information. No-one’s seen his ‘sister’, but when he adds that her boyfriend is Henry Davids, someone recognises him. “Yeah, I saw him an hour ago heading into the Arts Building with a lot of candles.”

“Thank you.”

“Wait, kid.”

“Yes?” He pauses midstep.

“Look, see, um… sometimes when a boyfriend and girlfriend get candles and go into a place alone—”

Robin leaves without another word.

He palms another piece of candy before dumping his bag.

Robin lands on the Arts Building.

He pauses at the stairs, finding paper cut-outs of crosses and garlic cloves dotted around.

“Tch.” He taps his comm as he walks. “Robin to Batman. I’m pretty sure I found him. Give me ten minutes and this will be handled.”

“Alright.” Batman is distracted, climbing out of another storm drain and frowning at the giant Halloween party in the building in front of him. “Keep me updated.”

Batman watches the party.

He notices the same man who’d begged him for help earlier that night — now cheerily joking with friends, the same clothes mysteriously clean — and contacts Black Bat.

While she arrives, he heads over to the party, only to find not only is there a strict guestlist that requires an invitation and ID, but also that the bouncers don’t recognise he’s really Batman.

Batman doesn’t insist on his identity, instead asking why the security is tight enough he can see patrols walking the upper balconies.

The guards don’t answer.

Oracle explains that company parties mean it’s very difficult to keep track of everyone’s movements, and this particular company has a lot of valuable prizes stored in the same building.

She’s cut-off when the suspiciously-not-muddy man notices Batman, curses, and transforms into Clayface.

Back in the theatre, Batgirl is sulking.

Henry has set up the room with enough candles to be a fire hazard, each connected with string.

He’s sitting in the row behind her. Several wooden stakes are resting in easy reach.

Batgirl sits up a little straighter when a small red-green-black figure appears in the doorway. “Oh. It’s you. Great.”

“What is this?” Robin steps inside, gesturing at the room.

“This is… umm…”

She’s spared the explanation as Henry lunges forward over her shoulder. He presses a wooden stake against her chest plate, the other hand gripping a mallet.

Robin has a batarang out immediately. “Let her go.”

“I can’t.” Henry’s pale, his eyes frantic. “I have to — I have to protect Gotham. This is my only chance.”

“Protect Gotham from what?”

“You.” Henry’s breaths are quick and shallow. “I know what you are, I know what you’re going to do to the city. I’m the only one willing to stop you.”

“He thinks we’re the terrifying vampire heroes of Gotham,” Batgirl says. Her voice is unconcerned, but she can’t stop glancing at the stake.

“You’re not heroes.”

Robin rubs his forehead, lowering his batarang. “Look, we’re not va—” He stops mid-word. Slowly, he pulls his hand down, smiles with too many teeth. “We only feed on those who deserve it. Criminals, muggers, the occasional student too nosy for their own good.”

Henry jolts.

“I’ve been very good lately.” Robin takes a step forwards. “But it’s Halloween, and no-one can deny I look like a child. I think I deserve a treat.”

Batgirl tries not to laugh.

The panic serves to motivate Henry and he swings the mallet with all his might, digging the stake forwards.

Reinforced armour meets pointy stick. The wood splinters.

There’s a long moment where he’s frozen, unable to comprehend what happened, before Batgirl headbutts him. He falls back.

Robin bites down his smile, stepping into the maze of tripwires.

“No, no, no!” Henry stumbles to his feet, one hand clutching a bloody nose. He digs into his pocket and pulls out his emergency garlic clove, throwing it at Robin.

There is a long moment where Robin considers the spice that landed by his feet, before he grins.

He takes a dramatic leap back, flipping midair, and bares his teeth in a hiss. “That was unwise. Now you’re out of ammunition.”

“Not yet!” Henry rips the garlic necklace off Batgirl’s neck, and starts flinging the individual cloves.

His aim’s pretty good. It’s useless, but accurate.

Robin plays the game. He ducks and dodges and somersaults to avoid the garlic, trying to hide his smile. Once he pauses long enough to wave his fingers like claws.

Batgirl is trying very hard not to laugh. When Robin abruptly remembers her presence, she grins at him.

Meanwhile, Batman’s dealing with Clayface.

The security guards fire, but the bullets do nothing except splatter people with mud. He reaches up to swipe at the balcony, and the guards are no longer interested in shooting.

Batman darts past the bouncers, causing a reaction as people recognise it’s not another costume.

Clayface doesn’t stand and fight, and instead moves to the upper levels by stretching an arm as a grappling hook. Batman follows him, as the party flees.

Upstairs, amongst enough art to be a gallery, they fight.

Black Bat arrives through a window mid-battle.

It takes a while, ducking between pieces of fancy artwork (Black Bat takes the time to move one statue out of the way) but eventually Clayface ends up caught in containment fluid.

Henry is still throwing garlic.

He attempts a particularly ambitious shot and trips over the string criss-crossing his theatre.

Around the room, his candles are knocked over.

Flames start to spread.

Robin flings a batarang. It stabs Batgirl’s chair, narrowly avoiding her arm.

“Hey!” She scowls, even as she’s rubbing her tied wrists against it.

Robin leaps over the chairs.

Henry is tangled in string and mildly dazed. Robin slices the thread and drags the student to his feet.

Batgirl’s free by the time they’re standing.

The three of them flee the burning building, Robin and Batgirl dragging Henry by the elbows.

Batgirl pauses at the door, turns, and tosses a pellet into the midst of the fire. Foam explodes out, suffocating the worst of the flames.

Combined with the sprinklers finally turning on, the damage is halted.

The moment they’re out, Henry slides to the ground.

The Bats let him.

“You okay?” Batgirl asks.

“I — I think so.” He takes a deep breath, still on his knees. “You saved me.”

“We did.”

“Are you going to bite me now?”

“No,” Robin says.

“I might slap you, though,” Batgirl mutters.

“How exactly did you get into that situation?” Robin asks her. She ignores him.

“So — so you were telling the truth? You’re heroic?”

Batgirl and Robin share a look. Robin rolls his eyes and turns away, and Batgirl shrugs. “Yep.”

“I… I was wrong?”

“Also yep.”

“About everything? What about the Riddler being an escaped thrall? And the Bat-signal announcing new victims? And — Batman came back after being disintegrated, I had to be right about the time-travel.”

Robin jerks out of his folded arms. Batgirl stiffens. They stare at him.

“Or… not. I guess I was” He stumbles to his feet.

The sound of sirens reach them. The fire’s out, but smoke drifts from the windows.

“I’m sorry. About everything. I shouldn’t have — I should have put more together, realised vampire doesn’t equal monster.” There’s no response, but Henry’s looking at the fire engines anyway. “I’ll talk to the firemen. Thank you for not biting me—”

When he turns around, he’s alone.

Later, the Bats have met up on top of a building.

“It doesn’t mean anything.” Robin says, balancing on the roof railing. “He tried to put a stake in Batgirl’s heart. I wouldn’t consider him a reliable source.”

“No,” Black Bat agrees, sitting with her back against the railing. “But Tim is.”

“Names,” Batman says without thinking.

“I figured T was in denial.” Batgirl’s pacing. “I got it, I might have done the same. He didn’t want to lose three parents in ten months. But our little conspiracist had the same theory.”

“We already knew T must have had something to base it on.” Batman stares out at the city. “Some detail he’d decided was a clue. Even good detectives come to wrong conclusions and he’d never insist if he hadn’t found something he called evidence. Someone else just found the same clues.”

“Nothing Davids said can be considered relevant,” Robin insists.

Batgirl stops pacing and sighs. “No. Probably not.”

There’s a moment as they let it sink in.

Oracle informs them Henry had admitted the truth and been arrested. He’ll only be held overnight, but is likely to be expelled. He’ll probably head back home, leaving Gotham.

“Good.” Batgirl nods. “I don’t think he deserves Arkham but I really don’t want to deal with him again.”

“I still have questions about how you were captured by that incompetent,” Robin says.

“Don’t act so dignified, I saw you playing along and hissing like a good little vampire.”

Robin’s cheeks colour. “I was not — I did not play — and even if I — that does not answer how you were caught!”

Batman places a hand on Robin’s shoulder, trying not to grin. “It’s not Halloween without a horror movie. Shall we finish patrol and meet up?”

“Make it the Cave,” Oracle advises. “Better atmosphere if we turn off the lights. I’ll bring popcorn.”

“I vote cheesy horror,” Batgirl says, swinging off the roof.

“With vampires!” Black Bat calls, following her.

Batman glances at Robin. “Did you have fun?”

“I—”

“Good.”

They pull out their grappling hooks and swing away.

Find the rest of the fic on AO3.

More tumblr extracts:

S1E13 - Birdcage In which Dick Grayson is held for ransom. Dick is bored, Bruce is frantic, and Robin ends up on the phone with the Commissioner and has to fequently ‘pass’ the phone to Dick.

S2E9 - Double In which the second Robin trades himself to Two-Face as potential leverage over Batman in return for the civilian hostages to be freed. Jason proceeds to comment frequently on all the ways Two-Face’s plan is failing.

S3E20 - Songbird In which everyone in Gotham under the age of eighteen is abruptly bursting into song. Tim is distressed, Steph attempts to pretend she’s not creeped out, Dick finds it hilarious, and Cass is a little jealous that she’s too old to be effected.

S4E01 - Worst Nightmare In which Scarecrow manages to drug Robin and Spoiler. Batman is a protective father, Steph has a discussion with her childhood fears, Tim is walking a fine line between terror and consciousness - and at home, Cass refuses to acknowledge flour/sugar/baking soda are different ingredients for cookies.

#damian wayne #stephanie brown #dick grayson #batman #robin #dickbats #batgirl #batfam #cassandra cain #black bat #barbara gordon #oracle #tim drake #red robin #because he's mentioned too #batfic #fanfic #12freddofrogs writes #gotham crusaders #as ever the episode numbers are more or less random #jason todd #he is not in this episode but his fans will probably enjoy the full fic regardless #dc #this is probably the tumblr extract that most connects with the rest of the season #but it kind of loses the effect of the end if i take out the references to tim #for the record in this verse bruce's vanishing act was public and in the middle of gotham #dick took up the cowl so nobody realises batman's really gone #but that's why henry was able to start wondering about it #batman was on earth when it happened #also i'm not thrilled with the clayface subplot

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darkspellmaster · 5 years

Note

You know what I'm curious about? When did Cass meet the batfamily? When you think about it she could have easily been around since S2 since she never joined the Team or worked w/any heroes outside of the batfamily. (The mission to track Mad Hatter was probably Arrowette's first time working w/Cass. Unlike Robin and Spoiler, she seemed a little unnerved by Cass). Actually I kind of want a timeline of when all the bats met. All I have are HC's. Like I hc Dick became NW at 15 and Jason shortly -

2 showed up afterwards. That way they'd have lived together since Greg said they were close (in this verse I imagine Dick gave Robin to Jason rather then Bruce did). Jason trained for a year then joined the Team for around Two years. He died then Tim showed up and admitted to Dick he knew the Batfam's secret ID's. Tim trains for at least a year under Bruce, Dick and Bab's (who became Batgirl a little before Jason showed up) then joins the Team shortly after being considered ready for the field.-

3 That's why in S2 ep 1 he's still very nervous about missions and leading Teams despite being trained by the best. Jason's death and being finished w/his training is still fresh on his mind. As I said about Cass, well she probably showed up in the 2 year gap between S2-S3. But again until canon confirms, I kind of like to hc she came a bit after Tim. Maybe on one of Tim's first missions w/Bruce they found Cass and Bruce brought her home. She prefers Gotham/Bat teams over the Team. S2 begins.

It’s a mystery right now, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Bruce had her off the Team due to her past and probably because he’s a bit worried that the others wouldn’t be able to understand her, due to her being unable to speak. Yeah I noticed that Cissie seemed really unsure of Cassandra, but seeing how Steph and Tim react to her, it’s clear that they get how she thinks and moves. I think it’s rather telling that they pair her up with Arrowette as it’s probably a way for Cissie to learn more about Cassandra.

I figure that Jason showed up around the time Dick was 16, and probably you’re right that Dick gave Jason the robin persona in this case. Given how Greg said they were close, as you pointed out. We probably saw less of this

And more of this...

I think during the in between season 2 and 3 Gotham had No man’s land, which is why Luthor has his job right now. Honestly you’re time line certainly works well as it fits in the story and I wouldn’t doubt that there’s probably a tie in with Jason and Dick possibly being the reason Tim joined the bat family.

I have a feeling that Tim’s nerves possibly also come from being worried about losing people he cares about. He knows about the loss of Jason and now Wally, and probably has to deal with his dead mom and maybe dead Dad. So there’s that too.

Tim is the only member of the Batfamily that has a normal life, or did. He has a dad (and maybe mom) to come home to. He wants to do something other than be a detective, and he’s the only one that doesn’t exactly live off Bruce’s money. And like Peter Parker, he has to hid the truth from his dad. So that can lead to some issues as well for him and screwing up. I’m betting some of the more confidence may come from him working with Steph and Cassandra and maybe training them with Dick and teaching them what he knows.

I honestly think that Cassandra probably came in as a bit of a surprise, I have a feeling that we got her the same way we got the the Trio, in that she sort of followed them home. I can just see Dick giving Bruce the Puppy eyes with Tim and him going “Fine.” I wonder if she came in via a No Man’s land like situation, or if they’ll be following her showing up in the New 52? I can totally buy that she prefers the Bats over the Team. Though I would like to see her on the team at some point. I think it would be fun.

Hope this makes sense.

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cursed-to-be-a-sidekick · 5 years

Text

DC Ladies and Why They're so Awesome

Barbara Gordan: So of course Im going to start of with a good part. Babs is probably one of the smartest people in the entire DC universe. She graduated high school early (at like sixteen) and went to college. She got her masters degree so she could be a librarian. In her 20's she became a congresswoman but apparently was too liberal to get re-elected. On top of this all she was batgirl. When the Killing Joke happened the DC universe thought they lost Babs. Not only did Babs stick around she became stronger. Babs used everything she had and built up the Birds of Prey using her quick thinking and computer knowledge to keep her team safe. Not only that but as Oracle Babs was the information keeper for the Justice League. She had every single superheroes number easily accessible and knows them all personally. Also Babs became a Green Lantern! Like thats awesome. Babs has been at war with the Calculator for forever and has won every time. You can not tell me Babs isnt one of the best DC characters hands down.

Diana Prince: Okay I bet you're all surprised I didn't start off with Diana. I love Wonder Woman so much and there's so many reasons why. First off Wonder Woman defied her Amazonian sisters and went out to the real world. She didn't know what was out there and didn't really care. She wanted to promote peace and be a diplomat and that's what she was at least for a while. When Diana killed Maxwell Lord she regretted it so much that she decided not to be Wonder Woman anymore. Even though everyone told her that her reasoning was just (cause like yeah it was). Wonder Woman has this huge sense of responsibility and like how can you not love her for it. Also the fact she's more powerful than most of the Justice League and the Justice League knows and admires it. Yeah that's definitely a plus.

Mary Batson: Okay I love Mary and honestly I don't know much about her but I'm going to take a stab. Mary carries this sense of responsibility, she wants to be a hero and she's damn good at it too. When she lost her powers around Countdown she was devastated. When she got them back and become "Black Mary" that absolutely sucked. But she came back became Mary Marvel again and built herself back up. Mary is a key part of the Marvel family and I don't know what Billy would do without her. She's also still a kid. Like an actual kid. A teenager and she's out helping save the world. Yeah I have respect for that.

Kara Zor-El: Of course Supergirls on this list. Why would she not be? Okay supergirl has an interesting story. She's the sole survivor of not one but to planets. When she arrived on earth she knew nothing about the planet at all. She had to trust her cousin knew what he was doing to help her. She wanted to build a whole life away from being a superhero too. She just wanted to be a normal kid. She has her ups and downs but ultimately Kara is probably one of the best characters because she's realistic. She's written to be an angsty teenage girl who is still trying to figure herself out. Sure she's chronologically 30 years older than Superman (depends on what story you read) but that doesn't make her any less of a kid. Also she fought Darkseid and Lex Luthor while still figuring out her powers, she single handedly took down the entire Justice League and she's more powerful than Superman. I think that's pretty cool.

Dinah Lance: The Black Canary's name has belonged to like three different Dinah's at this point. But that doesn't make her any less awesome. Dinah is trained in all forms of martial arts and is thought to be the second best martial artist in the world. Yeah the entire world. Dinah is hot heated and can be moody at times but she knows what she's doing. Even after losing her Sonic Scream she continued to kick ass with the Birds of Prey. She did get her Sonic Scream back later while in the birds but she never seemed to rely on her powers, she always just used her gut instincts and quick thinking. At one point Dinah adopts a child who was being trained to be an assassin. She kept this child and even stopped being with the birds to settle down with Oliver Queen and have a family. Dinah is undoubtedly one of the best ladies in the whole DC universe.

Helena Bertinelli: Okay not only is Helena a superhero known as the Huntress shes also a school teacher. Helena originally was the daughter of Batman and Catwoman but at some point during Crisis she became a vigilante who was the daughter of a mob boss. After her whole family is murdered in front of her she vows to end the underground crime ring in Gotham. Shes pretty good at it and almost succeeds. Sure her methods arent well liked by Batman but she gets her job done. She joins the Birds at one point and actually gets a family. Babs gets her a job as a school teacher and Helena is happy again. Towards the end of the original Birds run Helena manages to take over the underworld and Gotham and manages to (almost) take it down.

Stephanie Brown: Okay Steph is the daughter of some low class supervillain called the Cluemaster. She becomes Spoiler as a way to make up for all the things that her dad did. She literally built herself up from nothing and became an amazing superhero. Steph might have never had a major standing in the comics but she was there in the background spoiling everyones plans. Also Steph got pregnant as a teenager. Like thats really hard to deal with. And she did it mostly while continuing to be a vigilante. Steph maintained a good friendship with Cass and when Cass ditched the title of Batgirl Steph took it up. While Batman never approved of her actions Steph did everything she could to be an accepted member or the batfamily. Plus she was briefly Robin which is really cool.

Cassandra Cain: Okay daughter of assassins is already cool but the fact she can speak solely with body language is amazing. Cass never learned how to speak and was trained to be the worlds best assassin. When she did learn how to speak she spoke few words. Despite that she maintained a great friendship with Babs and Steph. Babs trained her to be the new Batgirl and Steph ended up being her best friend. Cass is even better at fighting than Batman and she took down the Joker her first time fighting him. Not only did she break the Joker out of Arkham she beat him and sent him back just as easily. Cass had a great character arc and I just love her character. She really brought the name Batgirl to mean something entirely new and when she dropped it and gave the name to Steph she did it with honor. Cass did at one point leave to go run the league of assassins but she eventually came back to Gotham.

Talia Al Ghul: I dont know much about Talia but I think I know enough to write a paragraph about her. Talia is the heir to the demon. She trained as a child to be an assassin alongside her father Ra's Al Ghul. She also fell in love with Batman. But thats probably the least cool thing about her. I mean she is an assassin who will potentially inherit a whole army of assassins and be immortal. Like I dont know about you but I think thats pretty friggin awesome.

Selina Kyle: Okay Catwoman is amazing. She trained to fight under Catman which is pretty cool. Also like she controls part of the Gotham underworld. Selina is an amazing woman who is a great thief and she also has morals. She doesnt do killing (most of the time) and shes even been a hero for a while. Catwoman became a hero alongside Batman but at some point she decided to return back to crime. She's worked alongside the Birds of Prey a few times and at one point was even a member. Selina also decided not to marry Bruce because she knew marrying Batman might give him a reason not to be Batman anymore and she knew people needed Batman more than she needs Bruce. Also Selina helps girls on the street. Like thats a major thing. Helping kids who dont have much. Like thats great. Lastly she feeds and takes in stray cats and thats just wonderful.

Harley Quinn: Okay while I wouldnt consider Harls a hero persay (shut up new 52 and rebirth) she is still an amazing character. Harley is a genius, she blew through med school and became a psychologist. She built herself up from working at Arkham from the bottom all the way to working with the highest class psychos. Harls was also an amazing gymnast and she had tons of medals. After falling in love with the Joker she did some regrettable things but the fact she managed to get herself and she started to redeem herself shows a lot about. Harley now just wants to help people she wants to fix what she did wrong. Harley has a big heart and wants to do right and while she knows her methods arent that great shes trying hard. She just wants to please the people she loves and cares about.

Pamela Isley: Okay Ivy is a tricky character. She doesnt really have a set backstory or anything that I really know of. Ivy was a scientist and something happened that changed her physically. She became connected to the green. Now Ivy isnt really sure who she is. She became the Batman villain known as Poison Ivy and became an ecological terrorist (at least thats what I think they call her). Ivy really just doesnt know her place in the world. Ivy is wicked smart and she has patented a lot of biotech stuff and she made Harley the antidote that made her immune to toxins. She does end up re-entering the field of science a few times and is genuinely trying to turn a new leaf and become a better person. At first she didnt really understand that what she did was wrong she just wanted to help out the plants because she saw all these terrible things happening to them. For the most part Ivy is a misunderstood person who is trying to find her humanity.

Kara Zor-El (Earth Two): Okay Power Girl is a tricky character to figure out because she has so many different backstories due to the destruction and then reformation of the multiverse. Anyways Karen Starr is from another Earth specifically Earth 2. When she arrived on Earth 1 she learned there was already a Supergirl. She took on the name Power Girl and founded a company that focused on software (I think.) Shes older than Earth 1s supergirl and is kind of like a big sister figure at times even though her and Kara are the same person. The two also didnt start off on the right foot with eachother. Karen for a while led the Justice Society of America which is really flipping cool. Karen knows whats right in her heart which is what makes her like Superman in a way. Because like her cousin (even if the two arent really cousins on earth 1) she wants to help people.

Donna Troy: The original Wonder Girl will always hold a special place in my heart but I kid of want to focus on her time as Wonder Woman and also as simply just Donna Troy. When Wonder Woman quit being Wonder Woman Donna took her spot and she made a pretty great Wonder Woman. She doubted herself a lot and didnt think shed ever be as good as Diana she pushed herself up to the top and did it. As Donna Troy she was an amazing Teen Titan and she even cheated death. Her spot in the multiverse has been looked over a few times but her Roy and Jason last I heard were all kicking ass together.

Rachel Roth: Ravens a weird character Im not going to lie. Shes kind of mysterious. Rachel was a key addition to the Teen Titans, her powers are unmatchable in battle a lot of the time. Also shes the child of the demon Trigon. Rachel herself never really knew what to do with herself but while growing up she knew she had to do something and that she has to save people. She spent her teenage years with the Titans and continues to be with the Titans even if shes technically supposed to have aged out by now.

Kate Kane: Kate is one of my favorite characters of all time. Batwoman adds so much to the story and it covers a lot of things Ive never even thought of. Kate was kicked out of Westpoint under Dont Ask Dont Tell. The story talks a lot about her experience with PTSD, being gay and also being in the army. Kate runs a major business and is Batmans cousin. Kate literally gives zero craps about what Batman says and she does what she wants even if he doesnt approve. Kate has a big heart and ultimately she just wants to save her sister. After being kicked out of Westpoint Kate became a party girl and an alcoholic becoming Batwoman changed all of that for her. She became the woman she was meant to be.

Maggie Sawyer: Maggie Sawyer is a badass cop. Shes also Kates girlfriend and shes a mom. Being a cop in Metropolis is one thing but since moving from Metropolis Maggie has joined the GCPD. Being a cop in Gotham versus being a cop in Metropolis are to completely different things. Maggie can do it all and she works well under pressure. Shes an amazing cop and deserves so much more credit that what she gets in the comics.

Renee Montoya: Renee Montoya started out as another Gotham City Cop well until she became The Question. Also one of Kates ex girlfriends Renee has taken up Vic Sage's mantel and become the Question. She's a cop turned vigilante who is trying to do everything she can to keep Gotham safe.

Zatanna Zatara: So Zatanna is a magician. An actually magician with real magic and also a performing magician for kids. She does a lot of volunteering and loves showing her magic to the kids. Shes part of Justice League Dark and her powers are probably some of the most powerful in the whole DC universe. Zatanna can literally do anything just by saying it backwards. She doesnt get as much credit as she deserves but Zatanna is a kid with a big heart and deserves a lot more than she gets. Also did I mention she once climbed Mount Everest?

Courtney Whitmore: Not many people know much about Stargirl but this teenage girl is a key part of the Justice Society. Stargirl is a nobody without her Cosmic Staff but with it she is one of the greatest members of the JSA. Courtney has befriended Supergirl and has run around on all sorts of adventures before she could even vote. Her friendship with Supergirl is strong even if it isnt seen too often in the comics. Stargirl is just another kid who wants to change the world and who does manage to do it.

Lois Lane: Supermans girlfriend has ring to it enough but pulitzer prize winner Lois Lane is so much more than that. Shes an investigative reporter who strives to find the truth no matter the cost. Time and time again she goes undercover and risks her life for her job. She has no powers and no fighting skills just faith and a keen eye for a story. So sure while she's Supermans girlfriend she so much more than that. She's a woman who's going places and will always be independent. (Bonus: the first time Clark meets Lois she's yelling at some guy at the phone for being sexist)

Lana Lang: Supermans other girlfriend. Lana kind of got abandoned for a while but trust me she's still great. Lana takes in Kara while Kara is still struggling to figure her life out. Lana is the most supportive and loving person there is. She really cares about Kara and treats her like a daughter and as a best friend. Her friend ship with Lois Lane is amazing and Lana had an amazing story arc when she became possessed. Moral of the story never mess with any of Supermans girlfriends because they will fight back and theyll fight back hard.

Lady Shiva: If it wasnt for Lady Shiva Black Canary would be the best martial artist in the world. Lady Shiva is a long time Batman villain and not even Batman himself can beat her. Shes said multiple times that the only time he did she let him. She just wanted to know how worthy of an opponent he was. Shiva and Dinah trained under the same sensei together and have a mutual respect for eachother. For a short period of time Shiva even took Dinah under her wing to teach her new techniques no one else in the world even knew.

Mia Dearden: Speedy is hands down the best Green Arrow sidekick. And no Im not talking about Roy I really do mean Mia. Mia was living on the streets for the longest time and as a teenager. Constantly in the comics she talks about what it was like as a teenager being homeless on the streets, doing drugs and even selling her body just to stay alive. She became a great fighter while training with Ollie and Dinah and becomes the second Speedy. Mia is quick thinking and knows how and when to act. Later in the comics before she joins the Teen Titans she gets diagnosed as HIV +. That was the first time the DC universe made a character be HIV + and it hit hard for a lot people. Her backstory is really sad but its meaningful and really tells a lot about things that nobody knows anything about. Mia is a spunky kid with a lot of personality and she wants to help people.

Emiko Queen: Emi wasnt really around until she become the Red Arrow in Rebirth. She had her ups and downs but she stay devoted to Ollie throughout all of it. Emi is a tough character who really wants to be just like her big brother. She does at one point join a cult but then she breaks away from the cult to save her brother. Emi really admires Dinah and their friendship is great. Her story is still just starting to develop and its really cool to see where its going.

Zinda Blake: Lady Blackhawk has been no where in sight since New 52 hit. Im not really sure if theyll bring her back but I hope they do. Zinda is a hotheaded pilot who thinks more with her fists than she does with her brain. Shes a key member to the Birds of Prey and a true hero. After somehow re entering the continuity despite having to have originally been in WW2 Zinda has begun to fit right in with her weird accent and odd slang. I really hope she gets put back in soon.

Charlie Gage-Radcliffe: Misfits not really a well known character but shes a good one. Shes a spunky kid with an obsession with Batgirl. She takes on the mantel of Batgirl briefly before the real Batgirl, Barbara Gordan, stops her. Babs takes her in as one of her Birds and trains her. Charlie is just a kid and Babs knows it. Charlie doesnt get to see much action throughout the series but her character really grows a lot and she molds into this amazing character. Misfit is pretty impulsive and her mind (and body) tend to bounce all over the place. Charlie is just like any other teenager and she does everything she can to look on the bright side of every situation

Cassandra Sandsmark: Cassies Wonder Girl is what got me into Teen Titans. Cassie knows what she wants and knows how to get it. She can be short tempered but she had a really good heart. Her friendship with Supergirl is one of the best friendships in the whole DC universe. Cassie ultimately just wants to impress Wonder Woman. When she's not roaming around with the Teen Titans or on Paradise Island she's like literally every other teenage girl. Sitting at home argueing with her mom. Her power for her lasso comes fron her anger which she seems to carry a lot of. Shes still figuring out how to be Wonder Girl but shes become a valuable asset to the team. Cassie is a really relatable character and I love her for that. Her and Diana are a great pair and seeing them together is amazing. (Bonus: In New 52 Teen Titans she can put up a fight against basically anybody including Tim Drake and she hates the name Wonder girl)

There are more characters but this took me about two hours to write so Im going to cut it here. If anyone wants me to add any more characters let me know in the notes and I'll edit this. Also special shout outs to characters who I didnt have enough info on to put on here but are still equally as awesome: Martha Kent, Director Cameron Chase and Linda Park.

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camsthisky · 6 years

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Just a thought, I always have problems in seeing Dick Grayson’s skill set when he is with the BatFam. I was rereading some of the old Titan and TT books, as well as his solo series and I tend to see that there writers have a better grasp at his skill set. AKA, they treat him as in according to his skill level. He’s not the best at everything, but he is an ace at everything, typical Robin rules apply. I actually see it as well in TTA. Though, I’m beginning to learn why he’s so inconsistent in

-the batbooks. In TT we have the skill set cut out. Leader, tactician, martial arts, acrobatics, close combat, intuition, intelligence, detective know-how, basically Batman Jr. He’s not the best at everything but is an ace at everything, and can substitute for members of the team. 5-Man Band leader rules apply. Nowadays I think they are “the Robin Rules” in which all Robins apply to this, in which all Robins are expected to be this, adjust skills to character accordingly.

—Now all Robins are suspected to follow that rule. Except Jason, oddly enough. Though the current RHaTO is supposed to be a subversion of the Trinity anyways. In solos skill is balanced with things that make the character stand alone, things that make them unique. Acrobatics, detective stuff, tactics. Balancing those skills without a team and implementing more character in them is where I think the solos are best at. As well as, how big of a threat the Big Bad is. —

—Back in the Robin days balancing skills was fairly simpler. He’s a junior partner and therefore at an apprentice level. Never really surpassing the master, though still an ace. He’s in a Duo and therefore the Ying to Bruce’s Yang. But what happens when the apprentice grows up? Does he surpass the master? This wasn’t answered clearly, well ever clearly because when Dick became Nightwing he was off with the Teen Titans. Where he played the “Leader” role. Then he came back because, editorial—

—and we have Tim, and Babs, and Cass, and Bruce. And I feel like BTAS Nightwing is the definitive Nightwing of this era when collabing w/BatFam. Good, but mostly there for plot advancements so skill isn’t really impt. He’s a supporting character. Then late post-Crisis happened and Dick became Batman again almost for realzes this time and had to be as great as Bruce but in his own way (solo skills apply). He also had to be mentor as well. Then we get to the modern era where we have the Robins—

—and Batman. By the Robins we get the guy Robins: Dick, Jay, Tim, Dami. Then Batman himself. This would be ideal 5-man band material itself with Bruce=leader, Dick=Heart, Tim=Smart Guy, Jay=Lancer, and Dami=Big Guy. Now Dick plays another spot in the band. And this is where the conflict kicks in. Dick’s the leader of the TT. The lancer in the Dynamic Duo. And the Heart in the Robin’s 5-Man band. If we include Steph and -Bruce the roles switch but Batbooks tend to focus on this dynamic.—

—Hearts tend to get the skill set that is missing in the team to fill in that role. This is a subversion to Dick since he was the first Robin. But also due to this some of Dick’s skills are downplayed or not even shown at all because it fits another member of the band. Till his main unique skills are the ones that are cherry picked and that is what he has to offer to the band. Since he’s an ace then he easily fill the roles that are missed in the band. Since he has no powers—

—and with band applications in mind Dick’s skill set tends to dumb down. Not all hearts are weak fighters (Starfire) but I feel that the Robin’s 5 band is the one that is most integrated in the 5 man band alignment and stereotypes. Dick’s role as a supporting character and as a Heart affect his abilities. He can no longer be as good a hacker, he can’t be the main lance to Bruce and looses the Daddy-issues vibe, he HAS to be emotionally supportive and offer a quirky big bro vibe—

—there for supporting reasons. He’s a supporting character. He’s still second in line for leadership but his position in the band is what makes his skills sooo inconsistent. What do you think? Sorry 😐 for the long ask… just thought that you’ll find this interesting. Here’s a potato 🥔

Wow. Okay, so this came into my inbox out of order, so I apologize if this isn’t the order that you meant it to be in. I tried my best to piece it together.

So, I’ve been questioning characterization of the batfam (or at least my characterization of them) for the past week or so? So I’m not sure if I’m the best to give my thoughts on this issue, and to be honest, I’m not quite sure exactly what you’re trying to say, so I’m going to give my piece, and if it doesn’t match up to what you were trying to say, then feel free to ignore this.

I think it just might depend on where you look for characterization and skill? I mean, in Young Justice, Dick is a really skilled hacker, but in the comics, he’s fairly average. Tim and Barbara (and Bruce, I think, but don’t quote me on that) both have hacking skills that outweigh his, but that doesn’t mean he’s necessarily bad at it?

The thing that stays consistent about Dick’s skillset is his acrobatics and his characterization is usually very light-hearted, and yes that makes him kind of goofy and he’s not the complete best at everything, but he does know how to get by. Adapt. I think that if Dick can be Batman (and he’s good at it, even if his heart can’t quite take the wear and tear of what Batman means, and Gotham prospers better under Bruce’s Batman), it means he’s flexible. He can adapt to whatever situation and role he needs to play, and he moves forward because of it. Of course, I’d love for Dick to be be able to show all of the skills he’s learned in his fifteen to twenty years of being Robin and Nightwing and Batman, but sometimes it doesn’t turn out like that.

But I don’t think that Dick’s changing skill set makes him a supporting character (I think that’s what you were saying?). Yeah, he can be a goofball sometimes, and he’s definitely the heart of the family, and sure, he’s not the best hacker, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t ground the others. He’s important, to the superhero community and to the batfamily, and without Dick, there would be a lot of things that would be different. Clark once called Dick the multi-verse constant:

Dick is important, and even though his skill set changes with the writer or the adaption, it doesn’t mean that there isn’t the same person lying underneath. At least, not in my opinion.

Dick is the heart, you said, and I definitely agree, but I don’t think that’s so bad. He grounds people, he can keep Batman in line, and he’s a good person that just wants to do right in the world. Hell, Bruce saved a whole world because of Dick:

I don’t know if this made any sense, but thanks for asking.

#dick grayson #dc #meta #i honestly don't know if this made sense but i tried #cam answers #anonymous

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renaroo · 7 years

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This is so completely random, but you're very probably the only Batfam Stan that also loves the Superfam and knows the various members of both families. I was wondering, in your mind, which members of the Superfamily match up with which members of the Batfamily? Like for instance, I've always firmly believed that Linda-Mae matches up with Dick, while Karen goes with Helena. As far as Babs goes, they share her.

If I’m reading you correctly, you’re asking who roughly inhabits the same spots in the Superfam that the Batfam has, yes? It’s really a fascinating question because I think there are lots of comparisons to be made, but it’s also interesting because of the ways they don’t line up perfectly. Like there’s a big difference in their structure just by the fact that Lois is the clear matriarch of the family and almost none of the Superfam have been without a relationship with her. So getting comparisons for some positions does tend to get a little fuzzy. So, I’m just going to go through the family one by one, starting with the most obvious which is Clark and Bruce.

Clark Kent: Obviously as the central family patriarch and the one who basically inspires everyone else to come into their own while attempting to live up to his impossible image, Clark is the most Bruce-like in comparisons. Which of course, their similarities are as strong as their differences which has been the source of their mutual respect and friendship over the decades and just make them incredibly fascinating characters to play off of each other in almost any circumstance.

Lois Lane: In recent years Kate has kind of stepped up to be the momma of the Batfam in a sense, and to be Bruce’s equal which would be representative of Lois and Clark’s equal footing in their relationship, but Kate’s got much less of a background for this position and for obvious reasons her relationship with Bruce is nothing like Lois’. In that way I would put Lois much more as a Selina Kyle. They share a street smarts and sassiness, prefer to look out for themselves but can’t help but fall into the same circles as their romantic interests, and in most realities end up married. It’s not a perfect fit, but I would argue it on more than a few grounds.

Jimmy Olsen: Definitely the Dick Grayson of the Superfam. Not only is he Superman’s pal, but he’s sort of the emotional bond that keeps a lot of the Superfam connected. He’s not only trusted by both Clark and Lois and inspired by both of them, but he’s also a confidante and romantic interest for Kara, was a friend to Linda, and in general is someone who is just by definition associated with Superman. It’s an iconic duo in a lesser sense than Bruce and Dick.

Martha Kent: Originally I was going to say Pa is the Alfred, but honestly Martha Kent is most definitely the Alfred Pennyworth of the Superfamily. She is a supportive and endearing voice, full of wit, and is the first person Clark goes to when he needs advice or solace. She is beloved by all of the Superfam members and has ben denmother/actual mother to nearly all of them in one sense or another.

Jonathan Kent: The more I think about it, the more I find that Pa is really a lot like Leslie Thompkins in Clark’s life. He has a bit of a harsher vibe to him and his disappointment is something that Clark is more conscious and fearful of, but it all stems from firm morality and a fear and protectiveness of his son. He is the guiding light for Clark’s humanity and is the sort of man that Clark tries to live up to without ever feeling he can fully achieve it. And all that despite clearly having well defined flaws of his own.

Lana Lang: Hilariously enough, I would put Lana on the level of a far more important and far more relevant and updated Vicki Vale. Again this seems like a strained comparison (because it is) but she’s a former romantic interest and friend to Clark who loves him but also couldn’t deal as well with realizing that he is Superman or at least that he’s something beyond her comprehension. And there’s still some pining and nonsense there, fortunately Lana is with John Henry now and written much better. Speaking of which...

John Henry Irons: A less murdery and more accepted member of the Superfam than his Batfam equivalent, John Henry Irons is a lot like Helena Bertinelli in that they both were inspired by the “patriarchs” of the family, but did things in their own style and in their own ways. He relies on his background and heritage as much as Helena does and it has influenced him to where he is today.

Kara Zor-El: An apt comparison for Kara is actually Barbara Gordon. Not only were they good friends in the Bronze Age, but they were similarly motivated. Despite both of them having just as much heartbreak and tragedy in their lives as Batman or Superman, they make the choice to not be defined by that and instead to invent their superhero identities as a way of fulfilling an obligation they feel either to law and order or to the sense of not wanting to lose their adopted new home to the same forces that took their old one.

Natasha Irons: Is absolutely the Superfam’s Stephanie Brown for better or worse. Nat is selfmade, has a family history of criminal activity but chooses to follow her uncle and Superman’s influences instead to make herself a superhero. Despite all she achieves, for absolutely no reason that makes canonical sense to... anyone who’s read it, basically, John abruptly decides she’s undeserving of her suit and takes it from her? That causes her to make some mistakes and play into a trap by one of the family’s worst enemies and get held hostage and tortured. Fortunately she wasn’t needlessly killed like Steph, but she did come back in spectacular fashion.

Mae Kent: Mae is a completely different character from Linda Danvers. Mostly. Kind of. So I’m going to treat them as such on this list. Mae is actually Clark’s adopted sister in the preboot and was taken in and cared for by Ma and Pa Kent. She’s fairly independent, making a name for herself outside of Clark even if they continued to have a good relationship. When Clark dies for a year, she is one of the top contenders for taking his place and becoming a surrogate Superman herself. In this way she most reminds me of Kate Kane, self-made while deeply connected to the family patriarch and sharing a family bond.

Karen Starr: Completely depends on which version you’re going with but if you’re going with the most common, the preboot, I think Karen is the most like Harper Row. She’s a solid member of the family, but she’s also beyond the family, and it’s not in a bad sense. She’s still connected to everyone, and every inventive and set apart almost purely based on her industriousness (making her business empire!) but as much as she does team up with everyone and join frays, she’s mostly off on her own adventures these days and most of her drama comes from civilian life rather than just her time as Power Girl.

Kon-El: This is going to be so freaking controversial but here we are. If I was to pick any analogue in the Batfam for Kon it would not be his best bud Tim, but his fellow leap-before-thinking, bit of a bad boy, fellow leather jacket wearing Jason Todd. They both like coming back from the dead and having inexplicable genre jumps throughout their histories and their main angst comes from a conflict of ideals and perspectives with their parental figures. Kon also is constantly concerned with going over the edge and turning to a villain because of his “bad genes” which reminds me a lot of how Jason felt judged for growing up and being born into a situation outside of his control.

Linda Danvers: It’s a bit of a cheat since they’re my favorite heroes I grew up with at the time, but when I think of Linda I always think of Cassandra Cain. Linda was not born into an abusive home life, but she was part of an abusive relationship and made mistakes that eventually led to a death. Unlike Cass, however, Linda’s death was her own. That was the turning point in her origins and from that point on she was led to being Supergirl out of not just a weird combining with Mae but through discovering a deeper level of morality and humanity than she had once seen inside of herself. And that became such a strong light in her life, she was even able to inspire the redemption of the very demon that had been responsible for her murder.

Traci Thirteen: It might be a bit early to call this, but I think Duke Thomas is the most positioned in the Batfam with Traci. Traci initially was a pretty independent character who mostly worked under the “advisement” of Clark and came into her own with her own identity and style. They both have good families they lose to tragic circumstances and slowly find their place within the gaggle of other children in their families.

Maggie Sawyer: Like I’m not saying it’s a purely lesbian thing, but it’s kind of the lesbian friend detective in the force who goes above and beyond and may or may not be a hero in their own right thing that I compare Maggie Sawyer and Renee Montoya. It’s a thing. And it’s a thing that unites them because they both have banged Kate Kane. Which is the real dream.

Cir-El: My poor sweet daughter is of course far too similar and too unused much like my other dear sweet daughter, Helena Wayne. They are both daughters of the matriarch and patriarch of the family from alternate futures that may or may not ever happen. They hold their father’s values and their mother’s attitudes and they both have awful terrible first costumes.

Chris Kent: Even though their personalities are starkly different, there is definitely a common thread between Chris and Damian Wayne. They come from troubling childhoods and have difficulties with the concept of unconditional love. Their only aspirations are to live up to expectations and take the mantles of their respective fathers. And for as much trouble as it may cause them they stand up against the villains they fear most in the final hour even under threat of pain or death. They both have a “I choose my real family” moment with a parent that mistreats them, too.

Jon Kent: This may seem like an odd comparison for now, but I get a Tim Drake vibe from Jon. Hear me out, there’s a lot of superhero worship and naivety about what his new superhero identity is going to bring with it. And while he’s much younger and less detectively minded than Tim, Jon draws on his knowledge of his father’s legacy as well as what he observes from his friends and other superheroes around him to creatively get himself out of jams. Not to mention he loves giving those moralizing speeches.

Perry White: He’s Jim Gordon. Next.

Krypto the Superdog: THE ONE THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS. Ace doesn’t go out much into the field anymore so the most apt comparison here is actually Goliath the Bat Dragon. Aaaaand that’s what I’ve got.

I hope this all made sense I had fun writing it out lol

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