#who is just as canon as dc vs vampires dick

[lylethewaterguy]

Wait why are people so desperate to be like “the Gotham Knights games aren’t canon though” “none of it actually matters” “y’all are acting like it will actually impact the comics” about Dick… dude, my guy, representation is representation? No one is saying dick is now canonically bi in main comics continuity, they’re saying he’s canonically bi in the game. It’s like how the riddler is gay in the Harley Quinn show, representation doesn’t have to be in the comics to matter. I get that your fave being bi hurts your macho persona or whatever but get a grip and let people be happy to see some queer representation.

[beesarekindaswag]

DC X DP

Ya know how we all collectively agree that the Lazarus pits are just ectoplasm? Well.. apparently it’s canon in DC Vs Vampires that the pits can reverse vampirism and turn someone back into a human…

Guys… GUYS -

Just imagine Danny wandering the ghost zone and ooh natural portal? Yoink.

It just so happens that the portal leads to the DC vs vampires dimension and well Vlad looks enough like a stereotypical vampire that when some dude with fangs tries to kill him who can fault Danny for a little ectoplasm blast?

And wait a minute- what just happened to the guy he shot? He’s… human now? H u h

Turns out when you shoot a vampire with ectoplasm it ALSO cures the vampirism…

The real question is : did Danny happen to land in the midst of a dramatic reveal of Dick Grayson as the vampire king and oops- no more vampire 🤩

[armed-with-a-waffle-iron]

Bat Timeline vs Bat Publication Timeline

I kept my receipts and citations here. I felt canon ages are the best tool to track time. Also, I used cover dates.

Neat things I noticed:

Nothing much happened in Gotham until Robin arrived both in continuity and in print history. Sorry but your lone wolf Batman doesn't exist :P

Dick permanently becomes Batman at the same age Bruce was when he became Batman; 25. Kinda poetic if you ask me.

Babs was Oracle longer than she was Batgirl in both continuity and publication history!!

Completely forgot that Dinah was literally her own mother once upon a time. Weird stuff.

There's not enough Jason!Robin stories to fit the 3 years some fans claim he was Robin for. Also the 3 years idea doesn't work if you track Dick's age. My guess is he was originally younger than 15 when he died but DC aged him up so he could be an adult when he returned as Red Hood.

It's pretty clear that Helena's integration into the group began the expansion of this complicated "family unit". She set the precedent for those noirish vigilante work relations.

Tim has to be a vampire if he's meant to be 17 three whole very explicit in-continuity years after he had his 16th birthday.

Stephanie has basically been in this gig as long as Tim! And almost as long as Helena too. Proper seasoned ass-kicker who Damian should look to for pointers.

Also remembered that Cassandra's Batgirl run is the best thing to come out of Gotham in the early 2000s.

I dunno I think the One Year Later timeskip was just unnecessary.

Kate and Renee are almost as new to the vigilante gig as Damian!

Bat-adjacent Rose Wilson was said to be 14 during her first appearance around Year 15 so she's the same age Tim.

Not Bat related but Lian Harper's age works with my timeline so yay! Born early Year 14, she's 5 during Cry for Justice in Year 19.

I have a theory, based off of Batman #416, that Dick graduated high school at 17. He says he was Bruce's partner for 6 years and that after he was fired; he left college after the 1st semester, then moved around the country, had his own adventures, and "eventually" ended up with the Titans. Also, he was 21 during the Titans' 3rd anniversary (New Titans v2 #71) and 19 when he became Nightwing (Tales of the Titans #44) so the Titans (re-)formed when he was 18. This means he probably only turned 18 in the academic year he began college (or has a summer birthday). So he was Bruce's partner from ages 11-17, did his own thing for a while as he did in the 70s, eventually joined the Titans at 18, and became Nightwing at 19. Jason comes into the picture soon after Dick retires the Robin identity.

[zeynyukine3011]

Hi! I want to get to Damian Wayne better. So could you recommend me what comics, or issues, to read? If it’s not an inconvenience. Thanks! (My English is not so good, sorry)

Hello!!!! It's not an inconvenience, I'd like to help ^^

Damian first appeared in Batman #655. But his character wasn't fleshed out. He was there to be a rich spoiled kid who annoys everyone.

But thanks to Patrick Gleason and Peter Tomasi, Damian's character evolved.

So you should definitely read Batman and Robin (2011), Robin:Son of Batman. These two are a MUST read for every Damian fan.

After that there is of course iconic Supersons. First Supersons, then The Adventures of the Supersons, and The Challenge of the Supersons.

You can read Batman and Robin (2009) too. It's where Dick is Batman and Damian is his Robin.

Besides those, my favourite is DC vs. Vampires. Damian is a major character in this and he is written well and he is a badass.

My another favourite is Dark Nights: Metal. He is written good here too.

I don't recommend reading his second team in Teen Titans (2016). He was first teams with Raven, Beast Boy, Starfire, Kid Flash, and Aqualad a while. It wasn't bad but canonically most of them should've been adults.

His second Teen Titans team was horrible. That comic absolutely ruined Damian's character. Don't read!

Then there is Robin (2021). It wasn't as bad as it could've been but it wasn't perfect either. Joshua Williamson tried to fix Damian's character after Adam Glass butchered it in Teen Titans. Was he successful? That's controversial. He mostly focused on his OCs so it wasn't much about Damian. But I think it is worth to read.

There is ongoing Batman and Robin (2023) by Joshua Williamson. At least he is not written as a villain in this but Williamson is writing him sooo boring. Damian was an unique and interesting character who wasn't like typical teenage heroes. But Williamson is making him a stereotypical teenager. It's boring 😐

Then there is brand new Boy Wonder! There is only one issue so far but it's looks really good for now. I hope they don't ruin it 🫠

Then there is Batman vs. Robin (2023) but it's not good, unfortunately. Damian is not written well and the only interaction we have between Bruce and Damian is just Bruce bad-mouthing him and saying every bad qualities of Damian. You can read if you want. I leave it to your judgement.

For every comic and issue Damian had appeared you can see this from this link.

[celaenaeiln]

Heck speaking of that last ask, whose to say even for Dick’s more professional and cordial moments with those outside his family or closest allies, whose to say those aren’t a front to mask his more serious and strategic cunning to through those other people off guard if they’re suspected of doing bad?

I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU ASKED THAT BECAUSE YOU'RE SPOT ON!!!!

This actually happens in canon but this time it's within the family.

In Batman and Robin Eternal the whole Batfamily is forced to a clean up a lethal mess that Bruce wasn't able to solve during his and Dick's days. Their opponent is a woman named "Mother" for which she is aptly named because her brilliance and manipulation were so high that Bruce was forced to admit defeat, unable to deal with her.

During the investigation, the rest of the batfamily is blissfully unaware of Tim's actions, histories, and secrets-except Dick.

While leaving the rest of the family in the dark to avoid raising suspicions, he goes to get some answers.

Of course he would never betray his family's trust without some evidence.

While Jason and Stephanie are busy yelling at each other, Tim quietly sneaks away to answer a call by "Mother." Dick is at the Drake's while this is happening thus indicating that both Dick and Tim have their own share of secrets and battle plans.

He asks questions about Tim to his parents as if he's never met Tim before. Someone should get this man an Oscar.

Of course everything goes to hell when an operative of Mother's shows up and starts firing at Dick. Tim's mom utters a codeword that isolates her and Jack and also notifies Tim. Dick neutralizes his opponent.

And then Tim shows up.

"It's your secrets, Tim. I respected your privacy. Never looked too close, until that became a luxury I couldn't afford...I thought you weren't one of Mother's children. Hoped you weren't. But I had to know."

While Tim is rightfully hurt, but the thing is-they can't trust anyone right now because Mother, their enemy, is inseparable from the batfamily. She gets into people's heads and uses them as operatives over their entire lifetimes from childhood to adulthood. And first and foremost, Dick is a detective. It's ingrained into him to identify any threat and act accordingly.

This scene is extremely important because Bruce was almost killed by Mother and Dick loves Bruce. For his part Bruce almost killed their world just so Dick could live and reversely, Dick would do anything to make sure Bruce was safe.

But here's where Dick's manipulation and cheerful demeanor come into play. The batfamily has no idea how good Dick is at manipulating people.

When Dick runs off to do this, they only say

They have no idea.

Dick never does anything without a plan, a backup, and a safety net. The only mistake in their understanding is that while they think that Dick looks for a safety net second, they don't know that Dick's already created his own net and the one they see is the one Dick tossed out to his allies when he needs them to catch him.

Even now, Tim only found out because his mom activated the alarms in his house. If Dick's enemy hadn't blasted in and opened fire at him then it's suffice to say that everyone would be none the wiser about his little side quest.

I don't think the batfamily will ever realize how cunning he is. They see him as a kind older brother who is too adherent to Bruce's rules. Afterwards Jason makes fun of Tim in an older brother way by implying if he's mad at his mommy lol.

The DC vs Vampires and why every single member of the family was blindsided was because they underestimated him and never expected it of him. That's how good of a manipulator Dick is and that is why they will never know.

Tim once said Dick was "ranting and raving" in Arkham during Future State but for someone who had supposedly lost his mind, he still was the reason they defeated the government and came out on top. Future State: Nightwing is a peak example of Dick's genius when it comes to controlling people even if it seems like lunacy from the outside.

Everyone sees him as the nice one and Dick is the nice one of the family but when his family's life comes into danger he will unearth any secrets that he let you have in order to keep them safe.

So basically he'll let you do anything: keep secrets, lie to him, ignore him, but if you endanger his family he is coming for you because as the song lyrics goes-

"I may be next to you but you don't know I'm undercover."

And that is what makes his character so excellent. The greatest spy and threat the good has ever had.

This is my favorite personality trait of his because he's the James Bond and Mata Hari of DC.

[thecruellestmonth]

Honestly really curious about the “Jason feel triggered by Dick’s kindness thing” if you feel like elaborating?

Every betrayal begins with trust. Jason Todd trusts Dick Grayson, and so Dick is a glowing, ticking timebomb.

-The Past-

Dick and Jason have history, not all of it good. Not all of it bad.

Nightwing: Year One

Batman #416 // The New Teen Titans (1984) #31

Skipping the early years all the way to the Red Hood era, Dick is someone who pretty consistently tries to give Jason a chance. Dick keeps up his guard and doesn't trust blindly, but he also tries to listen to Jason, reach out to him, and even work together when possible. Although Jason is an enemy, although it'd be much easier to believe the worst, Dick still generally chooses to keep his heart and mind open.

Outsiders #44-46 (2007), written by Judd Winick. When Jason obtains information that could free an innocent man from prison, he chooses to turn to Nightwing for help. In turn, Dick also chooses to believe in Jason.

Nightwing 2021 Annual, written by Tom Taylor. Despite (falsified) video evidence of Red Hood committing a murder, Dick doesn't jump to assume the worst in Jason. Dick chooses to trust and verify.

As Red Hood, Jason doesn't really like to ask favors or depend on others. Yet Nightwing tends to show up and help him anyway.

Now if Jason were healthy, then Dick's kindness would be comforting and reassuring. But in Jason's experiences, the most crushing pain comes from the people he's supposed to trust the most.

Catherine Todd, Willis Todd, police officers, social workers, a schoolteacher, Sheila Haywood, Bruce Wayne. Those people were supposed to protect Jason—those people ended up hurting him. After these experiences, Jason has become fixated on anticipating others' behavior (look up "fortune telling" as a cognitive distortion). Dick has become the latest source of safety. And so Dick's kindness is a trigger, as Jason anticipates more betrayal and pain.

-Dreams-

Jason's dreams have implied two things about his inner feelings:

1) Jason trusts Dick in ways that he no longer allows himself to trust Bruce—in his dreams, Dick is the first one who shows up for him when he's scared. Dick is the one who anticipates Jason's questions without being asked, and notices the fears that Jason tries to suppress.

2) Jason fears Dick is going to betray him, reject him, humiliate him. Because Dick is in a position where he can hurt Jason, then past experience says he inevitably will hurt Jason.

Examples:

Nightwing #121 (written by Bruce Jones, AKA the infamous tentacle monster arc) - Jason has been ingested by a mutating alien tentacle monster (long story). He dreams that Dick is in the darkness with him—but Dick mocks Jason for hoping that Dick would care to rescue him.

Truth & Justice #11 (written by Trammell) - When Jason has a fear toxin-induced nightmare of being buried alive again, Dick is the one who appears at his graveside and offers him help. However, the nightmare Dick then proceeds to ridicule Jason and attack his worth.

Task Force Z #7 (written by Rosenberg) - Jason has a nightmare of being surrounded by enemies attacking him. The nightmare culminates in the scariest part when Nightwing and Batgirl (Babs)—his older sibling figures—make him feel like a little Robin again, and tell him that all his efforts are just making everything worse.

DC vs. Vampires #6 (2022), a vampire apocalypse Elseworld written by Tynion & Rosenberg

Now Elseworlds (alternate universe) comics aren't canon to the main universe, but can still offer possible insight into characterization… In DC vs Vampires #6, Jason tells Dick (who has revealed himself as an evil vampire): "I always knew someday you'd screw up worse than anyone." Yet up until the moment when Dick reveals himself as an evil vampire, Jason never has a rational reason to anticipate that. So either Jason is just now lying to cover up his own shame for having misplaced his trust yet again, or Jason really has been harboring fears that Dick would betray him.

-The Present-

Circling back to recent happenings in the main universe: Task Force Z #8 (2022). Jason is behaving very suspiciously on a solo mission. Dick wants to know why—whether the greater good is at stake, or whether Jason is in trouble and needs help. And so Dick asks Jason to have a reasonable conversation... to which Jason responds by punching him and running away. Just the slightest suggestion of misgivings on Dick's part, and Jason chooses fight and flight. Another turn of the cycle, and Jason leaves the family circle again as quickly as he rejoined.

Task Force Z #8 (2022), written by Rosenberg

So Jason does cherish his brotherhood with Dick… but Jason is also watchful for the tiniest possible warning signs that Dick could hurt him, so he can cut off that bond before it can be used against him.

Dick Grayson is irresistibly trustworthy. Jason can't stop himself from trusting Dick. That's exactly why he can't trust Dick.

[spider-jaysart]

Character Ask

Koriand’r aka Starfire

@paladin-of-nerd-fandom65

1. How I feel about this character:

A very sweet, kind, happy, and comforting girl, who is also actually a smart and strong warrior who won't put up with such bull and mistreatment though, no matter how nice her personality is

2. All the people I ship romantically with this character:

Dick Grayson

3. My non romantic otp for this character:

Raven, Beast boy and Cyborg

4. My unpopular opinion about this character:

Most fans don't like seeing her with different hairstyles, but I personally love seeing her trying out new ones, cause I think it's nice for her to change it up once in a while for fun

5. One thing I wish would happen/ had happened with this character in canon:

Can I list of few of them?

Get more respect >:(

Should've been the one to become a vampire leader with King vampire!Dick in DC vs vampires, instead of becoming his slave like his daydream showed while Barbara gets all the glory, cause WTF was that??? Like why specifically her for that kind of thing, especially with her terrible, similar past, huh??? So freaking disgusting😤 If she would've been turned, she would've totally slayed it as a vampire and her and Dick would've been an evil, unstoppable power couple together, which would've been cool and cute, but no, DC just couldn't handle her being an awesome Queen like that

I know she got her solo in 2016 already, but I wanna see more!!😭 She deserves more!!

Stop getting bullied by Barbara. Like girl back off and worry about yourself already, she way too jealous and insecure about her. Learn to mature up and leave Kory alone, cause the hateful behavior is ridiculous. That one comic (idk know the name of it) with them finally getting along is nice step into that direction though, so hopefully it can keep staying that way without a new writer going back to the old ways of their relationship

She and Dick should've been happily married and had their kids Mar'i and Jake. DC, stop being so scared, it would be FUN, CUTE, AND STILL GIVE GOOD NEW STORIES!!! D:<

Thanks for the ask, buddy!

[disniq]

"nothing in this game is canon anyway"

Uh. I think you might be muddling the concept of canon with the concept of continuity.

DC canon is anything DC approves for release and consents to slap it's logo on. Simple as that. DC continuity is a whole lot less simple because they're idiots who keep insisting on rebooting their universe, but basically comprises your basic multiverse type situation.

So, Gotham Knights is canon, but it's set in it's own continuity.

Just like the Arkham!verse games and tie in comics are canon and in *their* own continuity.

And each different era of Batman films is it's own separate continuity, as is Batman: The Animated Series, as are the random DC live action shows floating around, as are all the Elseworld comics like DCeased or DC vs Vampires or, hell, even Frank Miller's famous Dark Knight runs.

None of these are any less canon for not being in the main continuity.

So you could argue that main continuity Dick Grayson isn't canonically bi (I don't see why you would, but you could), but you don't get to say that Gotham Knights continuity Dick Grayson isn't canonically bi

because he is

💗💜💙

[vellaphoria]

@marirah, thanks for tagging me!!

Rules: Go to your published works on AO3 and list the first fic you ever published there, the last fic you published, any fic that you wrote for a fandom/ship only once, your favorite fic you wrote in the fandom/ship that has the most works, the fic you wish more people read, the fic you agonized over the most, the fic that sprang fully formed from your mind without any effort, and a work you are proud of—for whatever reason. <3

Most recent published fic: daylight is not what we came all this way for (teen, dicktim) I always enjoy a good nightwing!tim fic <3 Fandom I only wrote for once: Unto Your Enemy (Mature, for physical, emotional, and psychological abuse; Silvergifting) For the Silmarillion/broader Legendarium fandom the sheer amount of research and cross-checking things from the Legendarium that I did for this was *a lot.* Like, I read laws and customs of the eldar way too many times to double-check that my interpretation of elf marriage at least had some basis in canon. And there are still probably things unintentionally inaccurate about it. I maybe also wrote this when I was supposed to be writing my undergrad thesis lol Favorite fic written in most common fandom: Recursion

(M for mild nsfw content, dicktim)

Recursion, my beloved. I had so much fun writing this, but it was an absolute mess figuring out all the ripple effects from who knew what, when, and why. I enjoy this one so much that there's an epilogue in the works somewhere on my computer that may even see the light someday lol.

Also a contender for the "fic I'm proud of" category because it just recently broke one thousand kudos on ao3 \o/

Fic I wish more people would read: Afterimage

(T for trauma lol, dicktim)

Cyberpunk-ish au where Tim died but was preserved as a digital ghost in Dick's brain; aka an Incredibly Specific premise that I suspect most people in this fandom aren't into. But I'm into it and that's what matters :D

Ends on a hopeful note because I'm incapable of writing 100% bleak endings lol

Fic I agonized over the most: Deadfall (M for violence, Lazarus!Tim, gen except for Ra's hitting on Tim because he thinks it's funny) You have no idea how many times I've rewritten this one. Neither do I, because I've lost count. It's currently more or less on hiatus because I'm working through some plot snags that I haven't had the spoons to tackle lol Fic that sprang fully formed into my mind: Red in Tooth and Claw

(M for incredibly unhealthy relationship dynamics, dicktim) The first chapter, anyway. I wrote it in a 2am haze after learning about DC vs. Vampires #6 lol A fic that I'm proud of: Midnight Elegy

(E, dicktim)

I'm really happy with how the dynamic between Dick and Tim turned out in this one. Plus, angsty drunk sex is a favorite trope combination of mine <3

[dhampiravidi]

I do not want members of the Batfamily in canon to have powers.

I do not like the new stuff where Dick becomes "Superwing" (😪 the name, dear gods) or where Damian had powers for various reasons or really, any of that.

Duke is an important character because of the perspectives he offers (& not just the ones who have to do with his race/ethnicity). This post is more tailored towards giving Batfam members who have ALWAYS relied on their physical & mental prowess to succeed.

I don't mind AUs (like DC vs. Vampires, which was COOL up until the rushed ending). I just do not like the addition of powers to characters who have existed WITHOUT powers for so long, just because DC is running out of ideas for arcs.

Bruce has said that he hates having metahumans in Gotham for several reasons.

(yes, I have a DC Comics OC who trained with the Batfam & has powers, before anyone else points that out. 😁 This is more, to me, about how you can have fun with some things in fanon but they don't make as much sense in canon.)

[dick-nightwing-grayson]

Some random incoherent thoughts on the latest issue of DC vs Vampires:

Jason went back for what he assumed would probably be nothing more than a body because he valued his brother's lives more than his. Jason once again was killed by trying to save someone who didn't view him as that important.

Jason Todd given his life twice to save other people, but just because he murders others some think he doesn't value life. He will literally give his life for those he loves. Jason cares so incredibly deeply that he will and has given his life for others. I will never recover

Bruce taking EVERY precaution and it not mattering is so good. I HATE toxic positivity. The whole "you can do anything you set your mind to" is nonsense. Bruce did everything right and still lost. I think we can all relate

Ollie outliving Bruce would piss Bruce off so much.

So many thoughts on Dick. I am unsure why some Dick stans hate it. I mean first, yes he killed his brothers and family, but look at the return of competent Dick! No oen suspected a thing. Dick really is just out there being undetected and winning, what a vampire king. This is an elseworld, it doesn't need to fit in his canon characterization, but fascist Dick should still make you angrier. Dick only being able to be "corrupted" as a turned vampire king though is in character. It is the only version that would be bad. Also just lol at Dick being the only person capable of killing Tim.

Also I just love how Dick heard Hal make an argument to keep Barry alive and he wasn't having it. Obviously we don't yet know what has become of Wally, but Dick only has room in his cold vampire heart for one speedster and it was NOT Barry.

If Bruce had lived and learned that Dick turned Hal first and used him as his plot device to infiltrate the JLA, he would be sooo mad. Essentially everything about what happened making Bruce angry will forever be funny to me. Poor Brucie. I am so surprised DC let him be killed like this. F in the chat.

[0pin0n-custard]

Y’know, I kinda admire DC vs Vampires…

It managed to piss of the stans of every Batfam member! That’s impressive!

Dick Grayson: the Vampire King (???) more of a plot device/twist than an actually compelling character (just like in the Under the Red Hood, Joker War, the entire Ric Grayson arc, every other DC animated movie, etc, etc…)

Jason Todd: wHO LET THE BEEF BETWEEN HIM AND DICK INTO THE CANON?!?! Of all the fanon things to make canon, it had to be that?!?! WHY?! Also he dead.

Tim Drake: BOY GOt NERFED SO HARD!! Like Tim is always the most underrepresented of the main 4 Robins, but this takes it to a whole new level. Boy got curbstomped outta the story. As a result of said curbstomping, he is also dead.

Damian Wayne: Will this literal child’s suffering ever end? Probably not! He needed therapy; he got vampirism and another dead parental figure.

Bruce Wayne: heartless, as always.. smh (that is a joke. He is also just dead.) do any people actually stan Bruce? Genuine question

Cassandra Cain: HOW DID SHE NOT NOTICE DICK WAS THE VAMPIRE KING?!?! Is she secretly a vampire who was in on the plan? Who knows! Did DC just make her completely ooc for plot convenience? Most likely!!

Stephanie Brown: 404 error character not found.

Duke Thomas: 404 error character not found.

(Although the subsequent Vampire Nightwing fanart is quite nice, thank you fan artists.)

[hood-ex]

OK, so I'm sorry to bother, but I'm curious. In Vamp Dick's fight with Jason, Jason affirms that he was holding out all this time and that he could wipe the flour with Dick anytime, right ? And I just brushed it off as some whatever thing, because, no he ain't but people seems to believe it ??

I've seen a post claiming that Jason was second best batfam fighter after Cass, that everyone will be better than Dick at one point and just ... Going on and on about how much Jason learned as a fighter, how he was taught by many teachers instead of just Bats like Dick was, that he's stronger and I'm just ... Confused about all this ? So, is Jason stronger than Dick ?

If you don't feel like answering, that's totally OK, I'm just. Yeah, I'm just really confused and I figured you'd know. Well, you or @northoftheroad

The thing people fail to take into account is that Bruce had multiple teachers and then he took all the skills he learned from those teachers and he taught all that knowledge to Dick. So it's not like Dick needed a ton of different teachers when Bruce had already done all the leg work to procure various skills from multiple people. Also, Dick's had Richard Dragon and Shrike as mentors so it's not like Jason's the only one who's branched out in the mentor department.

Now I'm not denying that Jason is a good fighter because he is. It could be argued that Dick and Jason tend to be more evenly matched when they fight each other which makes sense because, for the most part, they were trained by the same mentor. For example:

Outsiders #44

From what we've seen, one of them may get more of an advantage over the other one (an example of said advantage being Jason shooting Dick in the chest in Batman and Robin #5). It just depends.

Batman: Battle for the Cowl #3

I think another thing to take into account is that during the times that Dick and Jason have fought, Jason wasn't afraid to kill Dick and was aiming to kill him in Battle for the Cowl. On the flip side, Dick obviously wasn't going to kill Jason. He was only aiming to subdue Jason. So under circumstances like that, Dick would be the one holding back in a fight, not Jason.

In regard to DC vs. Vampires where Jason says he's been holding back, well, under normal circumstances, I would say that's absolute bullshit. But we've got to keep in mind that Dick and Jason from DC vs. Vampires are from a different universe where their skills in that universe technically have no reflection on Dick and Jason's skills in the main continuity. So it actually doesn't matter what Jason from DC vs. Vampires says because he's not the same Jason Todd that we see in canon. Jason doesn't feel the need to hold back based on what we've seen in canon.

[celaenaeiln]

Hi! I really love all your takes and character analysis. I'm new-ish to Batman so these are always so educational for me 😅 I was wondering, in your opinion, of all the batkids, who would you say would make the most terrifying villains? And who, canonically, would you say exercises the most self control to prevent exactly that from happening? Like every day, they have to work to prevent themselves from crossing that line.

...(Is it Dick? I feel like you're going to say Dick)

Thank you!

You got me!! Those are good questions!

I had to think a lot about this honestly.

So for most terrifying villain, I would say Dick. Mostly because it's just canon. When Dick was the villain both times in New Order and in DC vs Vampires, he practically eradicated the world based on who he felt needed to go. In DC vs Vampires he didn't care for anyone so by the time he was done there were no humans left. In New Order he lost it when the heroes accidentally killed Bruce and thus destroyed the entire justice league and remade himself as the head of all military operations under the government. Dick also knows exactly how to kill Bruce and he's terrified of it (Nightwing: Knight Terrors). Kory once told him during the Teen Titans (2003?) comic that Dick could stack up all the Titans and could take on the Justice League if he wanted to but Dick states that he knows and that's exactly why he's scared.

Also the way he manipulates every single person in existence in both his typical Nightwing runs is just a hint of the brilliance. Many times when his partners want to chase after a villain, he makes them let them go so that he grab the lizard, its hiding spot, and its family rather than just the tail.

Grayson Annual #3

Dick is not reckless in anyway either, he plans and analyzes and calculates as he moves which makes him a fantastic strategist, detective, and doer all in one.

Or actually I change my mind, I choose Cass. I forgot about her initially. Cass can beat everyone in the world (except Harley). Batman has admitted it too.

Detective Comics (2016) Issue #951

She's unstoppable. So unless the Batfamily sends in Harley, in a straight fight where no one runs away *cough* Batman Issue 137 *cough*, then Cass would win. After her though, in a tactical and fighting sense combined it would be Dick.

Jason is canonically the one who struggles with self-control everyday. But unlike some people, I don't think this a fault of his that should be changed or erased. To me, each robin represents a certain characteristic of society.

Dick - the hope of the people.

Jason - the anger of the people.

Tim - the morality of the people.

Stephanie - the safety of the people.

Damian - the rights of the people.

Dick says the meaning of robin is helping the good. And all the robins do this in their own ways.

Jason's robin represents the rightful anger by the people against the injustice. Like the Boston Tea Party against Britain's taxation, Jason was born and raised in Gotham so his love for the common people on the street is overwhelming. He wants to help every woman and child find a better life and survive because it's reflective of the life he and his mother were forced to face. So when he sees a man sexually assaulting a woman or beating a child or selling drugs, his anger bursts out. And in Gotham, there's a lot of that everywhere. So take a good person and put in him the skills and fuel for hurting the bad and you get Jason Todd. That's why from his Robin days he has struggled with self-control.

"He was a drug dealing pimp."

Batman (1940) Issue #645

"I'm sorry...but that doesn't mean he didn't deserve it."

Furthermore in the Batman Urban Legends comic also in the Batman and Robin Eternal comic it shows that Jason's greatest wish is the Joker's death and that coupled with the Gotham War and Selina's interference, Jason has the most trouble with self-control. But I believe it's rightfully so.

I think after Jason it's Dick who struggles with self-control. Not as robin but as Nightwing. Especially during his darkest days of the Nightwing (1996) comic and the Outsiders comic, Dick has been shown to forcibly stop himself when someone hurts his friends or family.

Okay, the difference between Jason and Dick's struggle with self-control is that Jason feels it all the time because his motivating factor is ever present while Dick only struggles with it when someone hurts the people he loves because that's Dick's motivating factor.

Damian is the one who has the most trouble after that. Then Stephanie, Tim, Cass, and Duke. Although if you're including Stephanie's robin days, she would be tied with Jason.

[batfamcraze]

My thoughts on DC vs Vampires #6

I really liked this issue because SHIT HIT THE FAN!!! THERE’S SO MUCH DRAMA!!!

BUT I have issues because the plot and characterization is all over the place so lets talk about it lol 

(Spoilers under cut duh)

I’m glad that Joker isn’t on the vampire team and vampire leader because he’s dead. The writers were flirting with the idea that Joker could be a big vampire but I’m glad that he's not involved at all. As it should (If only DC would kill him in a canon comic maybe I'd be happier lol).

This is definitely foreshadowing:

I think it’s possible that someone will kill Dick since he’s the Vampire King, but it won't be Bruce that's for sure.

If Bruce survives and shows up in the next issue, I will actually be mad because nah look at this he’s definitely dead:

The feels 😭

Dick is looking very sexy rn yup

God Alfred’s face, he's literally in shock and poor Dami 💔

Hopefully nobody takes this the wrong way, but Dick claiming that he’s better than all of the Batfam is not a stretch since he definitely has the most experience imo. So Dick saying this to Cass should not be taken personally, nobody can take Cass’ amazing fighting skills but Dick has won against others who had huge fighting advantages against him. And Vampire Dick winning the fight makes sense because the vampires have powers, and the plot is in their favour at the moment so it makes sense for the heroes to lose rn and maybe win in the final issue. 

If you’re offended by his statement you could interpret this scene differently: Dick said it to hurt Cass so he can win the fight by mocking her. BUT I don't think that he would need to do that because he's a newly-turned powerful Vampire, he would’ve won the fight regardless because you know, he has powers now. So this interpretation doesn’t make sense.

I understand if people are still offended by this, because Cass still gets treated poorly by DC in canon continuity.

Dick calling Bruce “Father” rubs me the wrong way because it implies that he doesn’t see Bruce as a father-figure, and that bothered me. I hope he said that to hurt Tim and that the real Dick inside doesn't believe that statement.

Jason goes back to try to save Damian 💔

Oof this page is a mess lol

Dick: “You can't win, Jason. I was better than you everytime that we ever faced off, and now I’m godlike.”

Fair lol

Jason: “I was holding back.”

I think this line is supposed to redeem Jason to show that he IS an extremely skilled vigilante because of writers doing him dirty for years. They are trying to re-establish his competence (See Task Force Z #6). Jason NEVER said “I was holding back because I’m better than you” he says SIMPLY “I was holding back” which means that Jason holds back in fights when he’s fighting against his family members and that they underestimate him (Example 1: RHATO Rebirth #25, Bruce almost beats Jason to death and Jason doesn’t even fight back in the end, he lets Bruce hurt him). People are reading this too seriously and think that Jason is shitting on Dick here but I don't see that. So Dick Stans don't take out your pitchforks and torches just yet!

This issue is also co-written by Rosenberg, who is currently writing Jason in Task Force Z so I’m pretty sure this is what they’re going for.

Dick: “It’s not too late to join me, Jason. I’m suddenly in need of a new Lieutenant.” (Rip Hal lol)

Jason: “All these years spent living in your damn shadow, and you think I want to spend eternity under you? You don't get me at all, man. [...] Everyone said you were the best to ever do it. [...] But I always knew someday you’d screw up worse than anyone.”

Ok NOW Dick Stans can get angry lol (Myself included). This is really not it. I really hate this new relationship dynamic they're writing between Dick and Jay rn because he’s never had this animosity towards Dick before. Discowing Dick and Robin Jay used to be really close, when Jason was Robin he was compared to Dick by Bruce a few times but Alfred told him to stop. 

From Batman (1940) #410: Alfred asking Bruce to stop talking about Dick too much.

When Jason came back as Red Hood and became an anti hero, they established a decent brotherly/coworker relationship and kept their distance (Leaving out Jason’s Evil era because most of it isn’t canon anymore). Jason “hating” Dick is a fanon interpretation that is slowly weaselling itself in the comics and I am NOT a fan. 

Dick: “Sounds like you have a lot of issues to work through. [...] Luckily you’ll have centuries to do it. [...] Did you really think she was going to stay tied up forever?”

OHHH SHIT

Dick getting cornered by Jason was definitely a setup to turn him into a vampire 100%.

Omg my heart 💔 Jay tried to kill Dick but lost because of their trap, and asks Oliver to kill him. This scene is really good, I liked it a lot. 

Even though I wanted to see him be evil and join the vampires, it makes sense for Jason’s character to sacrifice himself. I’m emotional.

Umm Dick... this was you 5 seconds ago:

You killed Tim with NO hesitation 🤨

I didn't know that you’re such a picky bitch Dick SKSKSSKSKSKSKSKKSKS

NOOOO poor Dami 😭 

I’m already impatient for next month because I wanna see what happens to him, he needs to be okay and back with his family!!! 😠 

So that was all of my thoughts on DC vs Vampires #6, it had its rocky moments for sure but I'm not taking this seriously because its a non-canon story. Dick finally has a huge part in a story that isn't canon, and isn’t dead for once (the others haven't been spared lol). We will just have to see how it ends because I hope it gets better ♥️ 

[aalghul]

Huh, it's always very obvious that Dick stans complaining about every time Jason gets tp be competent fighter and use Cass arguement but then turn aroud and say that Dick's Cass' level and obv has body reading on par with her

It’s funny that Jason stans don’t do it more often considering that N52 (stupidly) made it canon for Jason, but I’ll just be thankful because it would be embarrassing. Cass’ skill is on a level that no one can touch unless it was their first and only method of understanding people the way it was for her. No amount of “he can read people well” works because so can half the characters in the DCU. They’re not Cass, end of story.

Every single time that Jason beats Dick (or anyone) in any way, it’s followed by a wave of “he was overpowered” and “Dick was OOC when he didn’t one shot him”. Like, please. They’re so close in fighting ability and the speed of their plans that all their fights will be close like that. Even if you will die if you don’t believe Dick is “better”, it still isn’t going to be a 30 second fight, and he could still lose. (And DC vs Vampires, for example, literally killed off Jason while Dick’s the big boss. If Jason beat him, he beat him in that particular fight. That’s not writers favouring Jason.)

And “better” just doesn’t work if it’s not Cass. It’s important that she’s the best fighter because it’s integral to her character. Being the best fighter to either Dick or Jason’s characters so much as never believing they are (enough) and always trying to be.

(Also “who cares” but apparently everyone does.)